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Ten Games of Rotations

Nice work. One quick question: the two best rotations, what were their +/- and minutes played?


Sort by the +/- column and go to the bottom you get

+16 in 10:43, Holiday, Williams, Iguodala, Young, Brand
+15 in 11:49, Holiday, Turner, Iguodala, Young, Brand

Total of +31 minutes in under a half of playing time.

BTW - sorting works for +/- and the positions (only in the ascending order) except on the brand hawes worksheet...i'll work on getting that better.

Most telling statistic I saw doing the rotation research was when Collins had Williams running the point. Through all of the rotations of which Williams ran the point (about 8-10 different ones), the team was a combined -25 on the floor.

Louis Williams positional use is what I plan to go into more detail with hopefully soon.

deepsixersuede on Nov 15 at 7:57

John, thanks for the hard work; My two questions: Has the Thad/ Elton combo at the 4/5 gotten the majority of its minutes against opposing starters or bench players. And secondly, prior to the Spurs game it seemed our starters played well in the 1st quarter but got hammered starting the 3rd quarter, is this opposing teams deciding to pack it in [zone] or just this teams personality. I almost wish Collins started 2nd halves differently, with a quicker team or something.

Brian and Derek put in a lot of work just getting the sixers rotations down...it's not easy, focusing on the opponent as well might make people melt. If more people wanted to help out we could build it up but it becomes more complicated to track, so at this time I can only give you sixers rotations (I can give you the rotations by game, quarter, etc...but not who they were against)

Your other question regarding the third quarter is on my list after Louis Williams for a deeper look :)

Like the format, John.

This is what did happen so now the reader can draw anything they want from it.

Tom Moore on Nov 15 at 9:50

Kings reportedly looking to trade South Jersey's Jason Thompson:


Geoff Petrie denies it via a twitter feed.

I don't buy the rumored trade out there, Thompson for Jeff Teague turned down by the Hawks?

I don't think Thompson has much value in a trade. Neither does Thad for that matter.

Kate Fagan is chatting at noon today. I'll be in meetings, but if you're looking for something to do, ask her if she still thinks Dalembert isn't missed.

Was is Kate who slammed some of us for our pessimism a week or two before the season started? Or was that Dei? Either way, the "Depressed" outlook wins out... unfortunately.

It was both. Dei said something like, "Songaila is a great pro, look how long he's been in the league!" Fagan predicted either 42 or 43 wins and said Sam wouldn't be missed because Hawes is such a great passer.

Fagan and Dei are now just more sixer PR mouth pieces masquerading as beat writers.

IMO- Kate is still an independent voice. She's sometimes off base, but speaks her mind. Dei is knowledgeable, but has seemed a bit "busy" this year. Dei also works for Comcast 9and thus the Sixers) so I don't expect her to be as free in her criticism of the organization.

Yeah, I realized after the fact that Dei and Kate came at it from two different medias (and employers) but I see Kate pandering more and more to the 'average' fan in the fanbase this year than in previous years, but that's just my perception. I see her giving us similar nonsense her colleagues at the inquirer and daily news have been doing for years whereas in her first year she was much more independent (to me) in writing what she thought was right.

I realize she has to get readers and viewers to her web stuff, I just think that journalism loses all integrity when journalists have to worry about circulation and hits as opposed to just writing

One thing you have to give Kate is that she was on the Jrue bandwagon early, and was vocal about it when EFJ was jerking him around.

Well the change in her approach and tone has come it seems this season, last season I still thought she had credibilit8y and was less 'mouth piecey'

TK76 slips a question past the goalie.

A pop up ad for general hospital before a sixers chat

Strong advertising they got there :)

As ussual, picks the softball question and avoids the more challenging/interesting ones.

BTW, I threw out a quetion about the D-League. Their affiliate, the Armor, have been bought out by the Nets for exclusive use. So I wonder where the Sixers will send their players (if at all.)

Stefanski scoffed at the d-league last year. I doubt they send anyone out. Better to practice w/ the big team and wear a suit every night for Brackins.

By the way, that's not my logic, that's the logic I believe the team is using (and it's what Fagan voiced).

Personally, I'm not sure how much value there is in the D-League, guys who get sent down there are usually beyond "development," but playing basketball is better than not playing basketball, imo.

I think in principle the d-league HAS value as a true sort of NBA minor league.

Unfortunately I don't believe the way it's used by the NBA gives it any value. It's good in theory but I believe it's implementation is awful.

Again, I think when Iguodala was out, Jrue and Turner knew the perimeter scoring would come from them. There was no diversion, or person to whom they would defer. It was pretty simple: the job is yours. I think with Iguodala back, they understand that -- right now -- this is his team more than theirs and there's less aggressiveness from Turner.

If this is true it's on TURNER not Igudoala

Iguodala has been shooting much less this season. If anything, he's probably been deferring too much. I'm not sure how that's stifling Turner. And Jrue has been getting just as many shots with or without Iguodala on the floor.

I don't know why Turner hasn't been more aggressive lately but my guess is he knows if he makes 2 mistakes then the coach will pull him and give Lou or Nocioni some of his minutes. Just like Collins did to him and Jrue in the third quarter last game when they still had a chance to come back. It would be different if this team had a bench that could come in and help win a game but we know that's not the case. I hope he lets them play through a few mistakes going forward so they can play free and easy and not look over their shoulder. It's not like they aren't giving good effort, and as far as making it a teaching point, well that's what practice is for.

Kate: "I feel like the Sixers have given the core of this roster enough time together: Iguodala, Lou, Thad, especially. I understand good trades are hard to come by, but I don't think it's fair to the fans to continue another full season without making a significant move."

Sounds about right. I wonder what Thorn does to put his stamp on this team.

I wonder too, and it better not be Iguodala for Kaman cause I will quit! I will QUIT!

See Kaman for Iguodala (even if Kaman wasn't hurt) makes no sense to me in building a winning roster as Kaman is not athletic and he's 2 years older than Iguodala.

So instead of getting a younger building block piece they get an older plodding center - who is also one of the ugliest men in the NBA

So the core of the sixers roster was a top 30 player and two bench guys?

Maybe that's why they stink.

The core still includes Iguodala, it's just Jrue and Turner now and collins should be focused on how that works and letting them work through their mistakes.

I wonder who wrote this ;)

1:02[Comment From Integrity]
now that you seem to have sold out and are more interested in towing the sixers party line than giving us your honest opinions like last year - do you feel at all bad about it?

1:02 Kate - Ha! What's that mean?
1:04 Kate - I don't think I'm dodging any questions--and toeing the party line is definitely not on the agenda. Email me whatever question you want answered:

From Marc Stein's Daily Dime on ESPN.com:

Worrisome murmurs this week emanating from Sacramento, where giving up 42 points to Michael Beasley and losing at home to a Wolves team that pretty much never wins on the road apparently aren't the Kings' biggest issues.

Word is that handling rookie forward DeMarcus Cousins is proving to be an even bigger job for coach Paul Westphal and his staff than expected, even after the Kings hired Cousins' high school coach (Otis Hughley) in hopes of keeping the 20-year-old -- freshly relegated to a bench role -- plugged in.

One source close to the situation told ESPN.com that Cousins was fined recently for clashing with members of Westphal's staff. I've also been advised that it's not one-and-done as far as such clashes go, which has created a level of tension that -- anticipated or not -- obviously isn't what the Kings need when they're already operating at such an experience deficit on top of their serious defensive frailties.

No one doubts the potential possessed by the Kings' precocious tag team of Cousins and Tyreke Evans. But as one veteran scout warned me during summer league in Las Vegas, when tales and hints of Cousins' volatility and immaturity spread quickly: "It's always risky to have two young divas on the same team."

Didn't take long for the Kings to find out.

If the D-League's implementation was so awful we wouldn't see all these players coming out of the D-League.

Can you quantify that a bit? The Warriors have plucked a couple of guys. Amandusun was the MVP of the d-league, I believe. Lou spent a little time down there. Who else are you talking about?

Yeah, I'm curios to see some 'quantification' of all these D-League stars.

I'm no talking end of the bench 10th man guys, I'm talking about guys the d-league developed into real players

Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 15:14

Aaron Brooks, Josh Powell, Ramon Sessions, Barea, Matt Barnes, Shannon Brown, Azubuike, Gortat, Brandon Bass, etc. No superstars but some solid guys above 10th Man status.

Powel couldn't get a job in the NBA this summer, which was odd. Otherwise, not a bad list. How long has the D-League been in existence?

Rich reply to Brian on Nov 15 at 15:22

Powell played against the Sixers on the Hawks, no?

Who am I thinking of? Oh, Josh Boone.

Tray reply to Rich on Nov 15 at 16:15

C.J. Watson, Reggie Williams, Cartier Martin, Sundiata Gaines, Von Wafer, Tolliver.

Would anyone know who gaines was if it wasn't for one shot in utah last year?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 16:59

No, but he can play. Certainly C.J. Watson can play.

Yes gaines can definitely play which is why he was rosterless until 3 days ago because the timberwolves were short on point guards.

Most of the guys mentioned are end of rotation players, that doesn't prove to me that the NBDL works.

Besides, how many of those guys were SENT to the NBDL by their team and developed - that's the argument - not just a list of guys who played in the NBDL but guys who were sent down by their teams for significant amounts and then improved?

To use the NBDL properly, every team should own it's own affilliate, teams should follow the parent teams philosophy and it should be used to teach guys who need to learn the systems of the big club.

I don't see that happening. For one thing, they'd have to pay all those players, right? Even the meager salaries guys on NBADL contracts make is still some bread, plus the operating costs of each (they have to be operating at a loss, right?)

Then you get into expanding the draft, or do you fill out the rosters with undrafted free agents. Then you've got to expand your coaching staffs, if the real purpose is to get guys into the system earlier.

I just don't see the benefit, especially when you look at the NBA as currently constructed. Typically, teams have 2 or 3 guys suited up every single game who don't matter at all. What's the return on having a minor league system when you're looking at those dynamics?

It allows you to develop rookies faster (in my opinion) and a NBDL makes like 50 grand - dump the WNBA - use tat money to expand the NBDL - if the NBA wants it to be a true devleopment league than it has to be used as one.

You have all these high risk high reward kids drafted early because of upside and then you got 2-3 years to figure out if they can play but you can't find room for them toplay on your crowded roster.

Can also serve a function as a good place for veterans to rehab as well.


You could probably get the players' union behind it, if that matters. If underclassmen wind up spending time down there instead of eating up space on the 15-man roster, someone has to take those spots.

I still don't think there's enough value to get the owners to agree to spend the money, though.

I actually think one of the things no one is talking about in the CBA negotiations because of hte money issues is that Stern will go for a second year, make it sophmores, and he'll get it after the salary wars too I think.

The longer they have to stay in college the more Stern likes it, and the more ownership should like it.

Rich reply to Tray on Nov 15 at 16:29

Yeah it seems like Golden State has a lot of names. Those mostly bit guys too. I guess it's like plug guys in and score. The real D League experiment is San Antonio and their development of Alonzo Gee. That situation resembled a farm system more than anything Ive seen.

Tom Moore on Nov 15 at 14:16

Video: Doug Collins on the 2-8 Sixers' struggles, especially the slow starts:


Check out the part in the first minute where he leaves the frame to get his stats from the last four games.

johnrosz reply to Tom Moore on Nov 15 at 14:52

Doug is great. He's too good of a coach to be involved in this mess.

So what's his excuse for not coaching in Chicago right now then?

He withdrew, didn't he? I'm not sure how that invalidates him as a good coach.

Doesn't invalidate him as a good coach - but the 'too good of a coach to be involved in this mess' seems a little much.

He's an experienced coach who took the job and should have known how bad his roster was or his an awful evaluator of talent.

He wanted Chicago, Chicago wanted him, there's a reason he didn't take the job and a reason he did take the sixers job. Ther's only 30 NBA jobs no coach is 'too good' for a job if they take it. It's just a nonsensical statement.

If Collins didn't know this team was bad, then we're in trouble, cause he's addled

He had a center when he took the job :) And the number 2 pick was already decided, right?

By that, I mean they had already "won" the lottery at the time and he knew they'd be picking second in the draft, not that he knew they were picking Turner at #2.

Now you're just trying to goad me. The sixers were going to be terrible this year, it's Collins job to maximize the talent he has on the roster, i don't feel bad for him because he fails at the job.

I'm not really arguing against you, and I have to believe Collins has at least a modicum of culpability in the Dalembert trade. If he publicly puts his foot down, Stefanski can't possibly pull the trigger. Collins came in with enough cache with the fans and the owners to put the kibosh on that abortion of a trade, if he was really against it.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 15 at 15:13

I think he took the job before the lotto results. Didn't he?

Collins was hired May 21
The lottery was Held May 18th (or 17th, the headlines from the google search are dated the 18th)

So he officially took the job after the lottery but I expect he had already agreed in principle

Philly in NYC on Nov 15 at 15:07

Wondering what you guys think of the following. Note that Curry would only be included to get the salaries to match up and he would probably be inactive for most games for Philly. I think there is enough upside for each team. Philly may have to also send a protected 1st rounder out to Denver to make it happen.

This is a great trade for both the Nuggets and the Knicks I guess

But trading for a soft italian who says he doesn't think he'll be a super star and a hobbled center lucky to average 45 games per season isn't exactly WOO HOO to me

Philly in NYC reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 15:20

Well, trading Iggy and Nocioni (although I could see Kapono going instead of Nocioni) would free up minutes that could go towards the following:
1. evaluating whether Thad has a future with the Sixers
2. allowing ET to continue his growth and progress
3. giving a look to Brackins at some point this season.

We also get an opportunity to see if Gallinari could fit as a long-term piece for us, and maybe we get lucky with Oden and he is able to shed the injury bug. At the very least, I like the idea of Oden & Speights splitting minutes at the 5 in the second half of the season. I like the feeling of the roster after a trade of this sort as far as competing and developing for the future.

I refuse to acknowledge comments that imply that Evan Turner can't mature with Andre Iguodala on the roster. There's not actual evidence to indicate that this is true yet, but it's a common meme from idiots who work in Bristol. Repeating the meme doesn't make it true.

As for Thaddeus Young - he's been in the league long enough - people need to stop looking for reasons to make excuses for him.

And the Brackins thing is ridiculous.

The three things you indicate that your trade 'allows' for are achievable with Iguodala on the roster if the coach decides they matter.

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 16:08

The guy has to think he's a future superstar? He's being realistic. If he thought otherwise, he'd be delusional/a gunner.

No, I disagree completely. Just because one thinks he can be a super star doesn't mean he's going to be a douche bag.

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 18:10

Yeah, players who can actually be superstars and think they can be are not delusional. Players who can't be and think they can be are, by definition, deluded, and are likely to play in ways that reflect their unrealistic assessment of their talents.

A guy who says where he sees his ceiling below being the best means a guy who is willing to settle for being less than the best he can be in my opinion.

I believe Galinari just says these things to give a built in excuse for a less than dedicated work ethic.

And since neither of us knows many NBA players or their psychology we are both equally right, or wrong.

Do you have a link to the quote? I'd like to know what the argument is about.

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 22:38

"A guy who says where he sees his ceiling below being the best means a guy who is willing to settle for being less than the best he can be in my opinion."

No, see, the flaw in this reasoning is evident. "the best" and "the best he can be" are not the same thing. He's not good enough to be the best. If Cole Aldrich said, "I know I'm no superstar, I know I'm here to play defense and rebound and get putbacks and be a fundamentally sound big man," people would generally praise that. If he said, "I think I can be a superstar, I have so much untapped potential," people would be concerned about him trying to do stuff he wasn't capable of to prove he was a superstar. Or a little more analogously, Rockets fans would've been a lot happier with Ariza if he realized he was just a finisher/spot-up shooter/defender, not a superstar.

I like it from the Sixers perspective, it's at least a swing for the fences (though one that will probably fall short). I just don't see why Denver would be willing to take on the second year of Nocioni's contract, and I doubt Portland would be willing to get that package back in return for the #1 pick, no matter how injury-prone he's become.

If this was the basis of a deal, it would probably have to happen closer to the deadline when Denver starts to get an itchy trigger finger, and there would probably have to be picks going from Philly and NY to Portland and Denver, and maybe multiple picks.

it's at least a swing for the fences (though one that will probably fall short)

If by swing for the fences you mean you (or me) trying to hit a home run off of a Randy Johnson (in his prime) fastball in Safeco field type swing - then sure it's a swing for the fences move with a 99.99% chance of sucking

But thank god the sixers could be the ones to over pay the perpetually hobbled Greg Oden right?

Someone please look at Yao Ming - who was healthy to start his career - and explain to me why anyone believes Greg Oden will ever be 'fully healthy'?

Yeah, I have serious doubts Oden will ever be healthy, but you're not locked into extending him. I doubt anyone is going to offer him big money next summer as a restricted free agent, essentially, he'd have a year and a half to prove he's worth extending, otherwise he's a healthy (heh) expiring contract after next season. I kinda like the Rooster as a fit on the perimeter with Jrue and Turner. He's a shooter who can do some other things and doesn't need to use up a ton of possessions to have an impact on the game.

If Oden pans out (longshot), it's a home run. If he doesn't, then you've cleared cap space and added a young piece on an affordable contract. They could do much, much worse, like dealing for Kaman, or Granger, which Kate Fagan seems to think is a great idea.

Philly in NYC reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 15:29

I really do not think there is a perfect trade out there for the Sixers this year. They have a quality piece to offer in Iguodala but need to bring a potential fit as a big in return. I would take a chance on a guy like Oden possibly finding health and giving us some good minutes at a position where we are hardly getting anything....while not killing our long-term salary picture.

I think there are better trades than the one you orchestrated though

Probably. I've seen much, much worse ones, though.

I hate trade machines, in principle...I think there should be a 'common sense' algorithm that refuses to process trades that not even a drunk isiah thomas would make

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 15 at 17:03

I'd do this deal, and I'm sober and much smarter than Isaiah Thomas. Worst case, you get tons of cap relief. Best case, Oden's healthy and you get a guy who's actually produced a ton when he has been healthy, plus a pretty good young player.

I think I probably would too, depending on the pick(s) the Sixers have to give up.

Basically, my criteria for any trade of Iguodala (and I don't want him traded), are as follows:

1. Young pieces or potential pieces. Guys who have a shot at becoming pillars alongside Jrue and Turner.
2. Expiring contracts
3. Draft pick(s)

If a trade meets two of those criteria, I'm OK with it. This one does provide two of those, and possible it doubles up on the first criteria. The only mitigating factor would be giving up one of the high draft picks the move would surely create for the Sixers by making them even worse in the short term.

Any draft picks the sixers get in that deal would be in the 20s, the knicks can't trade their pick for like 3 years.

So the sixers either get young talent or cap relief depending on which way oden goes, and galinari who i still think is softer than tissue paper.

Iguodala is worth more than that in my opinion.

There's no way they'd be getting picks back in the deal.

Basically, you can break it down like this:

They get one player who can step right in, start, possibly be a nice compliment to Jrue and Turner and really stretch the floor. He's not without his downside, but he seems like a good fit.

Then you get one of two things out of Oden. Either a dominant center who you wind up having to pay through the teeth for 20 months down the road (but only if he proves to be worth it)...or...

You get $19M in expiring contracts for next summer, Curry plus Oden.

If Oden shows a little bit, but not enough to extend him, then you extend the qualifying offer and you have another year to evaluate, at the end of which he becomes an $8.8M expiring contract that summer.

This move would have the potential of being a true franchise-changer for the Sixers if Oden pans out, but there are easy and favorable outs even if he doesn't.

Absolute worst case, obviously, is that Oden comes back, dominates for half of a season, Thorn decides to give him a max extension, then he gets hurt again early next season. Which is more likely than I care to admit, actually.

When talking about Melo to the knicks everyone should keep in mind

The knicks are in the driver seat for this whole Carmelo thing. As long as all evidence indicates that Carmelo will sign an extension in New York (and only new york) Denver has little leverage in trading him somewhere else and New York is in a strong position to low ball on any deal if Denver decides something is better than nothing.

New York also doesn't have to do anything. They can just accept this year as a lost cause, let Denver do whatever they want as far as a trade goes, then sign Melo when he opts out from wherever.

Yeah, that too, should have mentioned that, but if Denver wants to get something for Melo as opposed to letting him walk off into the sunset - they would have to take what New York offered, New York could lowball it - kind of like an andre miller / joe smith type deal with some crappy draft picks.

I wonder if there would be any back channel stuff where melo says 'trade for me now so i can get the max extension before the new CBA or i will just go wherever they pay me the most'.

I also gotta wonder what his publicity hungry wife will do if somehow the clippers score a cap space making deal so she can try and boost her 'career' in LA

I only saw a few minutes of that train wreck but man, Melo is whipped

Philly in NYC reply to Brian on Nov 15 at 15:25

I agree with you on Nocioni's second year. That could lead to Kapono replacing Nocioni in the deal.

I think Fields looks good early on and could be a long-term answer at PG for Portland. They also get a chance to look at Randolph and Hawes to see if they can get some quality minutes from them in a rotation. I'm not big on either guy, but Portland has a good roster already and this would strengthen their bench. I agree that a pick would likely be headed their way as well.

I didn't know Fields could play point.

Philly in NYC reply to Tray on Nov 15 at 16:41

He's a big guard who could play point and has as times this season. The kid looks good.

He looks good but I don't think he's a point guard.

Tom Moore on Nov 15 at 15:27

Video: Evan Turner on his scoreless game and looking forward to his first NBA game in Ohio:


Philly in NYC on Nov 15 at 15:31

McNabb just signed a 5-year, $78 million extension with the Redskins. Good for him. Even happier for the Eagles that we've moved on.

OH YES!! How many cans of Beef with Country Vegetables can that buy?

So in those 5 years, which team wins more games- the Eagles or Skins. And how many games in those 5 years will the Eagles starting QB be a felon?

The Eagles are a better run organization than the RedSkins regardless of QB.

The Skins made an embarrassing situation (the benching) even worse by over compensating the other way and guaranteeing Donovan McNabb 40 million dollars.

But since they're in the NFC East and the Redskins continuing to over pay aging players is good for the Eagles, let me just say right on

More importantly, did they also extend Rex Grossman to run the two-minute drill for the next 5 years?

Philly in NYC reply to Brian on Nov 15 at 16:37

Ya gotta say this about McNabb. He's been benched twice in his career and has turned those benchings into new deals with a lot of added guaranteed money. Is there another player who has ever done that?

Lol, so he'll turn 35 during the first season of this extension. If there's a lockout he'll be 36 lol. WP redskins.

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