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Game 11 Thread: PHI @ CLE

The Game is at 7:00 PM!

The whole 'cavs are going to be the worst team in the league' was as nonsensical as 'heat are going to win more than 72' - both were extreme over reactions ignoring the fact that more than one guy plays on a basketball team.

Brian - you're really enjoying a new photoshop program with all your game # graphics ain't ya?:)

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 18:54

"The whole 'cavs are going to be the worst team in the league' was as nonsensical as 'heat are going to win more than 72' - both were extreme over reactions ignoring the fact that more than one guy plays on a basketball team."

Um, maybe it's just me but I thought predictions about the Heat were extremely aware of the fact that more than one guy plays on a basketball team, as they were based on not one, but three guys on that basketball team. And with the Cavs, I don't think the prediction was based on LeBron's absence, but that the twelve players on the roster weren't very good. Like the whole concept of Mo Williams or Antwan Jamison being your best player, that worries people.

You're starting to worry me actually Tray

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:16

That so?

deepsixersuede on Nov 16 at 18:44

Since Iggy's out, Turner goes for 20.:) Parker is one guy Turner should outquick and Thad has a big game, again because Iggy is out. :)

Based on the yahoo 'starting five' thing - Williams out but Varejao in

Phew. I thought it was 7:30. Just in time for the tip.

How many has Hawes won this year?

1, I think.

Oddities, the Cavs have as many home wins as the sixers road wins (1)

So they're 3-1 on the road?

Sissy hook on the first play.

Three missed shots at the rim to start things for the Sixers. At least they're going to the rim?

0/4 at the rim.

The refs seem to have it out for Brand this year. He completely avoided playing defense and still got called for a foul. WTF

Not sure why Hawes is guarding Hickson, I guess because he has no prayer of keeping Varejao off the glass.

that's two careless turnovers, one by Jrue, one by ET.

Hawes is so weak. So unbelievably weak.

I believe they've hit three jumpers and missed 7 attempts at the rim now.

I wish Evan Turner would be as aggressive as Nocioni on offense.

Evan Turner can not grow a mullet - can't be without a mullet to be that aggressive

Evan Turner finally showing signs of life in the offensive end!!

He's clearly more into the flow without Iguodala out there. I like Iguodala, but he doesn't pass to Turner, and seems to have a grudge against him for whatever reason (for example he put out his hands in a "what the hell" style when Turner didn't give him an alley-oop pass).

Oh just stop it

sorry but it happened. what, do you think it's a complete and pure coincidence that Turner gets the ball more and is more aggressive when Iguodala isn't out there?

I think your post hoc ergo propter hoc 'logic' is asinine and worthy maybe of philadunkia thinking, or perhaps bleacher logic

nah, you're logic is better. Complete coincidence that just always happens.

Sixers reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:53

The amount of times you use the word "asinine" and the number of times you tell people that they should go post on philly.com or philadunkia because of their lack of logic just makes you look insecure. You're not impressing anyone.

And you're very impressive with your pop psyschology bull shit

Joe reply to stoned81 on Nov 16 at 19:31

I heard Iguodala saw a girl at the club and was talking to her a bit. Turner came around and pulled the robbery. Iguodala says he is cool with Turner, but doesn't really trust him anymore.

Tray reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 19:37

I'd like to meet the girl who'd take Turner over Iguodala.

Oh Tray, didn't know you swung that way, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Explains a lot though

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:50

Um, well I happen to be a straight male but I don't know how either my gender or orientation would bear on my disagreeing with the stupid stuff you write all the time.

It would explain you being an uptight tool with no sense of humor though...all that self hatred and the like

Sixers reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:55

Wow so you are also homophobic. What a wonderful human being.

Actually your interpretation of what I wrote is so bassackwards it's ridiculous. Most people who actually know me would find it shocking you think I'm homophobic, but it proves that your earlier analysis of me is based in your own BS

Jason reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:55

Eh, what? I think that last post of yours sums you up more than tray.

sixers reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 19:41

Ha I heard Iguodala got some new kicks and saw Turner wearing the same ones two days later bragging to all his boys about how fly they are.

We've got a little bit of an emergency here. I'm going to have to watch the game on delay. Carry on w/out me.

Ugh, Louis williams on the floor without holiday

bad things are a brewing

Lou has to have at least 10 shots at the end of the quarter. Is Meeks active tonight? Would prefer him out there with Lou instead of ET who seems ineffective w/ lou.

Jason reply to Jason on Nov 16 at 19:40

lol nvm. he is in

Because lou is a ball hog and an awful point guard

Lou is only effective on the floor with a real point guard

Jason reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:43

I completely agree with you.

would want Meeks in there for his ability to spot up and shoot a 3 which Lou can create at times.

Considering he scored 29 last time out against the Cavs, Jrue hasn't scored much.

I like the fact that Turner has taken six shots and it's not half-time.

Jrue +4
Turner +9

Jrue has 7 assists and 1 turnover

Showing what a true point guard can do to help a team win without having to volume shoot

Alvin reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:50

I actually like it. He's having a Rondo-esque game. However on this team (especially with Iggy out) I was thinking maybe we need Jrue to score a bit more, especially if the matchup is a favourable one.

Jrue's job is to facilitate scoring, be it taking good shots of his own or passing to people who are open. Plus, there's still an entire half to play and the sixers are up at the moment...he doesn't 'need' to score for the sixers to win if the shots aren't there - he needs to play smart basketball

Watching Lou play is painful. Once he's traded i'll enjoy these games again.

Also Songaila being out there is equally painful

Joe reply to Jason on Nov 16 at 19:49

Songalia is slower than Hawes somehow.

Jason reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 19:50

Songaila looks like he's the same size as thad as well. I don't understand how he's in the league.

Joe reply to Jason on Nov 16 at 19:54

He shoots 50%. That is probably why teams keep thinking he can play a little bit. I can't come up with any other reason. He is horrible.

at this moment the sixers are shooting 50% from the field if you subtract lou williams

Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 19:58

Lou had 5 assists, no turnovers, and 8 points on 8 shots with no free throws.

He has had a couple poor possessions, but he has been very effective overall.

One game does not a good point guard make.

Lou has played the whole quarter so far all at point.

Also awful 3 there by Noc a min ago with 20 seconds left.

I must say Thad seems to have become a better finisher. Now if only he can get the rest of his game together. I'm starting to lose hope.

I'd rather see Brackins than Songaila out there. Seriously.

Anyone knows what happened to Speights?

Joe reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 20:05

Mr. Nocioni caps a nice first half there.

Meeks went coast to coast in a hurry, didn't know he was that fast.

Turner and Brand both 3-6 in 17 mins. Lou 3-8 in 10 mins. I know he's supposed to be an offensive spark but he is taking way too many shots compared to Brand and Turner. Considering also he has a FG% of slightly less than 40% in 10 games.

Come on Collins. Get Hawes out.

Alvin reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 20:24

And play Songaila instead?

I must say the defense was crap when Thad, Lou and Songaila were on the floor. Unsurprisingly.

Joe reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 20:27

I'd rather Speights.

I'd probably rather them push Turner to the 3 and a SF to the 4 even.

I haven't looked it up but I believe that's ET's first made 3-pointer in the NBA!

eddies' heady's reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 20:25

So he's on pace to make 8 this year?

Yes. 1-7.

1-8 I think.

Ah, you're right. Forgot he had already taken one this game.

If you were going by memory, you must have been waiting for that one...

nba, I looked up his season totals before making the post. just didn't check today's boxscore.

Varejo drawing the charge on Turner. Seems like that guy draws a charge or 2 most games I watch.

eddies' heady's on Nov 16 at 20:34

somebody needs to pick Jamison up when he's trailing and camping out at the line

ItAintEZ on Nov 16 at 20:34

Here comes that run that kills us every game.

Joe reply to ItAintEZ on Nov 16 at 20:35

Yeah, they are just falling apart.

Lou in. It will either get much better or much worse pretty soon.

eddies' heady's on Nov 16 at 20:35

We haven't scored in what 5 min? until that def 3 second tech

I think Lou has pumped about 5 or 6 times and no one has bit. I guess the scouting report is finally out.

eddies' heady's on Nov 16 at 20:37

Boy, EB with another missed bunnie. We've had a fair share of those tonight

Shit why are our guys missing everything???

eddies' heady's on Nov 16 at 20:47

16 pt quarter, ugh. That young backcourt is taking its toll.

The young back court
the sucky bench
the old starting power forward
the useless starting center

There's a lot of blame for the nonsense that is this really terrible team

Gotta have Jrue and ET take over this one in the fourth.

eddies' heady's on Nov 16 at 20:51

No way. Thad just went up between two others and got an O-board? And made the putback? Wow

And 1!

It's the 'Contract-Year Hustle'.

eddies' heady's reply to eddies' heady's on Nov 16 at 20:53

And of course, missed a bunnie the next time down. After he was wide open b/c his defender fell.

Is it just me or does it feel like Jrue hasn't really played this quarter?

Joe reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 20:54

and as I say that Jrue comes in to slow down Boobie.

CLE are shooting 48% from the field. I know we have a 16-point third quarter but the problem starts with defense. Feels like the other team's gonna score every time they have the ball.

Or half the time at least

Jrue's in, let's go.

Arg. 8:55 and next foul means we're in the penalty.

Seriously Doug must be pissed, he just doesn't have enough players to play defense.

Is Speights injured or in the dog house?

Fuck this, I'm watching Glee

Hopefully the show soon gets its head out of its ass

We can't really talk about our starting PG possibly eventually becoming a top-5 PG when we're getting torched by Boobie Gibson, can we?

I know it's not entirely his fault but the point has to be made.

He's 20 years old, he's only a few months older than John Wall.

It's quite likely that since he hasn't even started 82 nba games yet his game will evolve, and that hopefully he gets surrounded by better players on the court than the roster full of mostly back ups the sixers play

eddies' heady's reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:03

Overvaluing is common with your fav team's players. Remember when Thad was gonna be this stud? And when Speights was gonna take EB's starting job in his 2nd year in the league? Jrue will undoubtedly get better, but top 5? Likely not.

And what happens when 'experts' who are paid to cover basketball says he'll be in the top 5 (or close to it) in the next few years...they're probably wrong too right, since they disagree with you?

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:07

Who says I'm not an expert and not getting paid too? You know me?

I think most would agree with me that you provide a plethora of evidence that would prove you are neither expert nor getting paid to express your opinion about basketball.

Not to mention you aren't the most intelligent basketball mind who posts on this blog (and no, neither is Brian, but Brian would proably admit that, you wouldn't)

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:14

May God bless you. I'll certainly pray.

I'm with you on that point, eddie.

I doubt Jrue ever reaches the level of production top 5 PGs are putting up right now.

And since he's played less than 82 games as a starter, half of them with a god awful coach running a stupid ass system, it's a good idea to make a conclusion about his upside.

Then again, there are still folk here who would prefer Ty Lawson

Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:16

Lawson has been the better pro thusfar... the numbers say so at least and it isn't particularly close.

tk76 reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 21:58


Not close? You must be very focussed on a few isolated stats.

Ty has been the more efficient player- which makes sense given he gets to play as a role player while Jrue is asked to carry his team. But the overall numbers are debatable.


I don't mind seeing Battie/Brand/Turner/Meeks/Jrue out there in the fourth one bit. (When Iggy's not playing that is).

At some point the 'kid gloves' need to come off of Battie. Yes, he's old, yes he'll probably break down, but if the sixers want to win games, he has to play more

Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:05

What a sad state of affairs... Tony Battie should be starting for this team right now.

Sam Dalembert should be starting for this team right now actually :)

While looking at the box score thinking how we lost this game, I just noticed that the Cavs have just 5 turnovers. Between them Sessions and Gibson, who have been playing the point, have 15 assists and ZERO turnovers. Stellar.

Not gonna win a lot of ball games when the opposition makes 5 turnovers and shoots 49%.

eddies' heady's reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:10

Not sure now, but they had a run of like 40 possessions w/o a turnover that spanned around 15 minutes.

ItAintEZ on Nov 16 at 21:09

guys seem to just blow by jrue at will lately. That wasn't the case last year.

eddies' heady's reply to ItAintEZ on Nov 16 at 21:11

It certainly was, but not talked about around here.

You know, you whine a lot about what is and isn't talked about around here when there are numerous other palces to talk about where you 'informed' opinion would probably be more welcome.

Plus Brian has started taking submissions from even the most ignorant of us (as he allowed an article written by me to be published).

All this bluster and bravado, you have the opportunity to back it up, write something, write something intelligent with FACTS as opposed to ONLY your opinion to back it up...show us how truly blessed we are to have you here.

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:19

You're one funny dude, man. Internet tough guy is too fitting. And as I've told you before - I play, not write. Lace 'em up, that is.

Oh please

You play so therefore you know the game better - there's tons of former players, in all sports, on television that prove just because you played the game doesn't mean you don't have your head up your ass...in fact more often than not former players has less insight into the actual GAME because they can't encompass the whole game...not to mention that if you played basketball FOR A LIVING it's unlikely you'd have time to post on a blog so much.

As for your 'internet tough guy' comment - whatever you say - some people get it - some people don't - you obviously lack the insight to get it - but way to avoid the point.

If you had expertise, you'd demonstrate it, you're expertise in your comprehension of the game of basketball would be demonstrated when you post comments, or you'd dazzle us with your brilliance, which you don't. However, continue to make the claim that you know the game better 'because you play' and i assume that i don't or never have, because that assertion is disproven nightly if you turn on ESPN or TNT or NBATV that former players are the best qualified to analyze the game.

Or coach

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:31

No, this isn't about knowledge. I play, so therefore I'll shut you the eff up with your drivel after it's over - once and for all.

Go brush up on digging and setting and serving, will ya? Maybe grow out of that inferiority complex so you can spike.

Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:21

Cavs with a turnover!

this game is lost already, I want ET back in.

For Battie

Should we start a thread on who is more detrimental to the team?

- Spencer Hawes
- Songaila
- Bad Lou

Alvin reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:16

I never expected much from Songaila. Hawes has been much worst than expected. Bad Lou is just so frustrating and painful to watch, my blood pressure goes through the roof.

I never expected much from Hawes either, but I think he's most detrimental to the team because his flaws on the defensive end (even at only 12 minutes a game or so, odd for a 'starting' center) cost the sixers game in and game out and require an almost inhuman defensive effort from the front court players when he's on the floor to keep the team in the game.

Bad Lou's problem isn't bad lou, it's Collins not taking him out of the game, and perpetuating the 'point guard' myth of Louis Williams. The sixers use him poorly and that's when you get bad lou

Alvin reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:21

I very much rather see Meeks on the court than Bad Lou, that's for sure.

That's on Collins though, if it isn't working for Lou, it's obvious early, and Lou doesn't adjust his game (or he has no other game) to compensate it. Because of his height they want him to be a point guard, but he's not one, it's not his nature, and at the point where his move isn't working, he should be done for the game. Collins should take him out and just not play him again, or maybe against a different defender if he'll fall for it, but when a guy covering Lou isn't falling for it, it falls to Collins to recognize that and remove him from the game.

At least that's how I see it - Lou is always the same player - sometimes teams fall for it - sometimes they don't - he has very little variety to his game - it's on the coach (and it's not just collins, this is a recurring issue on the sixers) to pull him and play someone more suited for the match up.

johnrosz on Nov 16 at 21:14

I knew that taking the under on 37.5 wins for this Sixers team was easy money, just didn't have the heart to do itt

If I gambled I would have done it...can't let personal feelings get in the way of making cash, especially easy money like that :)

Betting against the heat was a pretty sure thing I think (winning the finals) but I bet you're odds weren't good on it

Why is Songaila on the court? Seriously???

No idea, still curios about zero minutes for Speights, was there an injury announcement i missed.

54 seconds left in the game, Evan Turner has a net 0 on the game, that's kind of a shame since the first quarter and a half went so well for them.

Let's see - close game - one team adjusts, another doesnt, turns into blow out...where did I hear that story before?

Thad Young is one of few players in the NBA that can score 17 points and take 8 boards off the bench and make you wonder if he was really a plus on the court.

Joe reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:25

I'd say tonight was a very positive night for Thad.

How did the Sixers lose? Apeears to be the complete inability to defend and force turnovers.

They shot pretty terribly too

Lou - 3 for 10
Turner - 4 for 13
Jrue - 3 for 8

Combined 10 for 29

And Brand was only 5 for 13 - who the hell defended him so well?

Alvin reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:31

I'd say Carrot Top. But Brand just has these off days once in a while where he misses the shots whether a guy is on him or not.

I'd say it's more on the defensive end. I don't like the idea of a team with the Cav's talent shooting 46%. I attribute that to very poor defense.

Good call Brian, 8-point defeat.

On the bright side, we play the Raptors at home tomorrow. Both teams are 2-9, something's gotta give.

Raptors actually have a shorter trip to Philly than the sixers...

I'm curios as to who is making Doug Collins start Spencer Hawes. More often than not you put yourself in a quick hole cause he's just not good

Joe reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:30

Is Bargnani the worst player in the NBA to receive 15 minutes a game or more? I think he may be.

Is Hawes averaging 15 minutes per game?

Alvin reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:33

Don't be giving them ideas!!!! NO!!!

Seriously, Bargnani's rebounding is even worse than Hawes. That is appalling. He does have the ability to score though, perhaps better than anyone we have on our roster.

Alvin reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:35

Holy shit I just checked it out, and Hawes has been averaging 16 mins a game. I am lost for words.

Joe reply to Alvin on Nov 16 at 21:37

Even if that were true, his rebounding is still appalling and kills his team.

Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 21:34

I just checked. He will be barely after tonight. Can I change it to 16?

Not even close.

I guess the ability to score not all that efficiently but in bunches and kill your team everywhere else is enough to make the cut?

PPG, I forgot. PPG.

Jack Straw on Nov 16 at 21:39

Anyone else think its about time we give Brackins an opportunity? At this point, why the hell not? We all certainly didn't expect Speights and Hawes to be so pitiful that they're glued to the bench at the hands of Tony Battie and Darius Songaila. That right there explains our 2-9 start.

My only fear is Brackins was such a horrible player his last year in college.

Tray reply to Joe on Nov 16 at 23:32

Had his productive moments in the preseason. He'd be entertaining anyway.

Tom Moore on Nov 16 at 21:58

Sixers fall to 2-9 for first time in 15 years:


YEAH! Number 1 pick here we come! Blow it up! LETS DO IT.

tk76 reply to Mike P on Nov 16 at 23:57

They alread look like they blow. I'm not sure what further blowing up is necessary. Just continue to play the young guys and have no quality interior players and the losses will continue to moubt. It sort of is what it is. The team has fallen to T-wolves status and its not a simple matter of coaching or one or two minor additions.

They just have to hope that they can draft a superstar and that Jrue and Turner develop into quality players. But they are years away. Might as well try and stockpile some picks. The more chances you get the sooner they find some quality players.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Nov 16 at 23:59

I knew Miller was masking a bad team. But with Miller and Sam gone their offense and defense are just getting exposed. I think we all over-estimated the talent level here and dismissed the coaches and vets as being the problem.

Mike P reply to tk76 on Nov 17 at 0:48

Miller set the franchise back like 5 years singlehandedly.

Chugging alone awkwardly, making Thad look like a real player. Getting us to think Iggy was a SG, making the higher ups think we were one piece away.

He ruined Sixers basketball by himself.

tk76 reply to Mike P on Nov 17 at 0:54

He should be the spokesman for band-aids.

Mike P reply to tk76 on Nov 17 at 1:34

Totally, I mean look what he did with a Blazers team that basically died last year.

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Nov 17 at 7:48

YOur last sentence speaks VOLUMES.

Joe reply to tk76 on Nov 17 at 10:40

Speak for yourself.

My expectations have been surpassed thusfar. The team has been much better than I would have thought if you told me Iguodala was going to be missing games.

I suppose I could say my expectations have been met.

I expected them to be bad
The loss of Sam was going to hurt on both ends of the court
Turner and Jrue and Iguodala would struggle to find their way together and people would freak out that Iguodala was holding people back after just a few games (which is connected to losses only - no one freaked out when Iguodala was deferring to Iverson).

The only thing really surprising to me so far this season is the injury concerns of Andre Iguodala. Just so used to him playing serious minutes in almost every game.

I thought they'd be a bottom 6 team this year and they look like a bottom 6 team.

Sad thing is (second year in a row) that there is no franchise changing player in the draft...there's very good players but not super stars, which is just luck i guess

Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 17 at 11:51

While it appears that way... things may change as the season wears on.

Possible new post:
How do you evaluate young players on a truly bad team?

My big concern now is whether the team is so bad we can no longer adequately evaluate the players. You need to have at least some framework in which these young guys operate. If they are asked to perform outside their normal NBA role than it won't be a fair evaluation.

As an example, we want to see Meeks try and be a scorer, shooter and reasonable defender. But if the offense is so broken he is asked to be a creator, to guard SF's and play without any defensive help on the perimeter he's going to look terrible.

Likewise, Thad is tougher to judge. We know he's not a good rebounder. But he's been amazingly efficient as a scorer this year. But if these struggles continue I wonder if he will try and do too much. That could mask his positives. Likewise, its hard to know if his defense or rebounding has incrementally improved when there is no quality defensive center when he is on the floor.

Turner and Jrue are both being asked to do a ton offensively. Jrue is holding up well for stretches, while Turner does not seem ready for that level of responsibility in the offense. They are suffering breakdowns, which is not the end of the world given their lack of experience. But how can you adequately gauge their progress when the team is playing losing basketball overall.

On the flip side, some players put up big numbers on bad teams. And its not always easy to know what numbers are empty. Like on the T-Wolves Beasley and Love have put up so huge stats. How much of that projects to helping a good team win- versus simple stat stuffing in the vacuum of lesser talent. Likewise, is Brands improved rebounding a result of Sam's departure, or is it a real improvement. When Turner steps up without Iguodala, does that really reflect positively or negatively on either player?

This is the type of dilemma the Clippers and T-Wolves struggle with year after year. You want to know how your players project to perform on a more complete team, where their strengths and weaknesses can be optimized. I realize you can still make judgments about the players on the floor... but the big question remains how much of the individual successes and failures are due to being on a horrible team.

This was the heart of the argument for bringing Andre Miller in the AI trade. Have a stabilizing influence to aid in player development and evaluation. Unfortunately, it lead to organizational myopia, where they thought they had a better core of players that were more playoff ready and on the rise. But now that the flawed but serviceable vets (Miller, Sam, Green) are gone, we realize exactly where this team is. But its that much harder to know where to go from here.

Obviously the team needs to land a superstar in the draft. But in the meantime, they need to find the best way to develop and evaluate the gys on the roster.

Joe reply to tk76 on Nov 17 at 10:45

You evaluate based on what wins games...

You don't evaluate on per game totals for points.

You pay attention to TS% and don't ignore it. You pay attention to who is creating possessions for the team and note who is wasting them.

And Love would be putting up gaudy numbers anywhere. He is a great player. Beasley's numbers aren't even good.

I really don't think it is that difficult to separate a player's individual production from the team.

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