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The Playoffs Are Not Out Of Reach

Get rid of him as soon as you get a deal you are comfortable with!

better yet, get in the middle of the melo trade and give away AI and anything else necessary Jrue and Turner in order to come out of it with Favors

And for once in a long long time, get extra draft picks from the trade

I doubt that is possible but that would be my pick

I meant to say give away AI and anything else you need to BUT Jrue or Turner....

I still hold out hope Turner just needs time to develop and that AI is really stifling him... But I admit I am slightly concerned he might just not be athletic enough at this level

Knowing the way the sixers front office has operated in the past, if they are close to the playoffs they won't trade Igoudala. I doubt they would add any extra pieces though just to get them there.

I don't think they will make the playoffs with this roster anyway. Not enough talent in the frontcourt and even if they keep improving their D, I don't see a playoff team. And to be honest the best thing for the sixers is to stay in the lottery until EB comes off the books anyway.

Yeah the 8th seed is open for whichever team wants to lose to Orlando or Boston in 4 or 5. Collins is going for it, he wants to do his turnaround a bad team thing again and get them to the playoffs. That is why he benches Turner and plays guys like Battie, so he can squeeze that extra few wins out of this team. Good plan tho, if we get the 8th spot and get swept I'm sure teams will pass on the couple guys who could be solid bigs in the draft when the sixers pick in the mid first, you know, the guys we've already established that no one will trade us. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if Collins already has Thorn looking into how we can trade our expiring contracts for Chris Kaman.(please no)

Theres no reason to deal him right now. The teams that want iguodala will only be more desperate for him as the trade deadline approaches. Dont really want another repeat of the sammy deal where we get rid of a useful player before the return is maximized. I say take it to the day of the deadline and see if a contender throws us an incredible deal

. The teams that want iguodala will only be more desperate for him as the trade deadline approaches

Or the teams that want him now make other moves (A la New Orleans) or fall out of contention and no longer have interest. You can't guarantee the future.

The only 'date' I'd wait for is the december 15th deadline that frees up players who signed in the off season and the like, more players are available.

Jason reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 12:54

I don't think NO wanted Iguodala after their early success. Ariza/Iggy wing would not be that good on offense.

Well since all we have to go on as 'fact' is various nba insider reports, I'm going to disagree with you since numerous reporters from ESPN and other outlets indicated that New Orleans would like Andre Iguodala, but Peja was their only real chip to make a deal for him work.

Jason reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 13:23

i'm obviously just speculating, but the trade that NO made would still be available at the trade deadline. The trade on NOs end is one that you make when you are confident in your roster and you want it to build and don't think you need to bring someone else in to improve it. I think NO likes having a shooter on the floor at the 2 spot which is why they traded for belinelli in the off season. That's why i don't think NO really felt it needed Iguodala and if they felt they did they could have still waited, that trade didn't have to happen that early in the season.

I don't think the playoffs are a reasonable, or a desireable goal this year. My best case scenario is that we come out of this year with a sense of what Turner's potential is, a solid perimeter defense, a sense of who stays and who is trade-bait, and (relatedly) a plan to get a defensive big man. And a high lottery pick. Those things seems doable, particularly since I like the job Collins is doing.

Also, I was at the game last night and it was really clear seeing it up close how hesitant and tentative Evan Turner is right now. The received wisdom is that Iguodala is holding back Turner's development, but I'm not seeing that, at least not last night. Seems more like Turner is lost and so scared to make a mistake that he can't wait to get rid of the ball. He did have a couple nice defensive plays, though. I hope the "he starts slow but then explodes" spin is true.

Tom Moore on Dec 1 at 12:58

Collins considers bringing Turner off bench.

Didn't he just say "no way" like two days ago in that video you posted ?

I think he said he really doesn't want to, or something to that effect. Maybe like he really doesn't want to have to do that, or he'd prefer not to. He left himself an out.

Meeks to start in his place, or Nocioni again?

Here's a question, is Brand playing into making his contract expensive and not highway robbery? That is another team would be willing to trade non-garbage for him?

While the playoff drive would be nice, I'd rather see the young guys learn and grow than be the 6/7/8th seed.

I'm OK with Collins sitting Turner down when he's having an off night. Hopefully as the season progresses they'll be fewer.

As disappointing as his overall contribution has been, Evan Turner does at least one thing every night that makes me believe he will be a good NBA player. All reports (and the arc of his numbers at Ohio State) seem to indicate that it may take him a year to get comfortable. Yeah, we wanted and expected right more right away from the college player of the year but life's like that.

Will he ever be more than just good? I'm pretty sure it will depend on whether he can develop his shooting touch. In college, Turner could get to any spot he wanted to on the floor and then get a good shot off. Now that he is facing bigger, quicker defenders and better help guarding the rim, good shots are hard to come by and his so-so athleticism is really exposed. Right now, it's obvious his confidence is shot and he is lost out there.

He'll get it together and be fine; his all-around game is strong enough that he will pull out of this and grow into being a starter and a solid contributor, if not a star.

If he can improve his shot to the point where defenses have to guard him tight all the way out, I think Turner will be an all-star force on the wing...a slightly less athletic but more roundly-skilled version of Paul Pierce, or maybe Jalen Rose if he had also rebounded and played D. With defenders running hard to close out on him, Turner's ability to put it on the deck and make plays for himself and others will return and he'll stuff stat sheets.

If his range and touch do not improve much, however, I suspect he'll peak as Billy Owens with a really high basketball IQ.

Tray reply to Vaughn on Dec 1 at 14:41

What about Turner right now says potential All-Star any more than James Anderson, or Xavier Henry? Or Nick Young? Is his ability to "put it on the deck and make plays for himself" much better than that of the average NBA shooting guard's?

In other news, Orlando is talking dealing Carter for Arenas... and maybe even Lewis for Blatche. Why?

Do you have a link for the Carter/Arenas thing? Boggles the mind.

Here it is

How many games has evan turner played so far? Definitely should write him off

Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 15:37

I'm just curious as to what it is about him that says potential All-Star. Is there any quality about his offensive game that is well above-average, on this level? Even if he can start hitting shots, why wouldn't that just make him a thoroughly ordinary shooting guard?

If I remember correctly, you didn't want the sixers to draft turner anyway did you?

By this time last season most fans here were ready to give up on Jrue Holiday as well weren't they?

Marty reply to Tray on Dec 1 at 16:51

Here's what makes me think Turner can turn into a borderline All-Star player: he can dribble. I know that may sound stupid, but its a lost art in the league. Once he refines his shot and builds his confidence, he'll be able to get his shot from anywhere on the floor.

So this is an unnamed source for a Magic blog. I find it hard to believe anyone has their eye on Arenas.

It sounds like a completely asinine and uselessly stupid trade that makes the Magic worse not better since Arenas is a ball hog who also enjoys making himself the center of attention and caring more about himself than winning and of course there's the whole locker room aspect.

I believe this ENTIRE thing is bull shit spawned last summer because otis smith and gilbert arenas are friends

Joe reply to Brian on Dec 1 at 18:17

Didn't Otis give Shard that deal he has now?

PPG is how this is possible.

Made up ESPN BS is what this leads to (Btw leonsis denies it vehemently says it's all made up - of course says he wouldn't tell you if it was true but denies that it is true)

johnrosz reply to Tray on Dec 1 at 15:32

Nick Young? Seriously?

Joe reply to Tray on Dec 1 at 18:20

I agree Turner is looking less like an all star.

I think he is looking more like he will be better than most all stars in a couple years.

Being an all star is really about filling the sexy stats and being on a winning team preferably. Turner doesn't do that stuff very much from what I have seen thusfar.

All star appearances are a silly way to judge a person
The fans vote for starters
The players vote in guys - Joe Johnson made it last year that way but Josh Smith didn't
Tim Duncan isn't a center
Paull Millsap isn't even on the ballot
Yao Ming starts even if he barely plays thanks to an entire continent voting for him.

Guys making all star games doesn't really impress me :)

johnrosz on Dec 1 at 14:40

Surprised it took so long for somebody to post this


Interestingly, the sixers would only be 3 1/2 out of the 8 seed in the west - as currently the last seed in the west has a losing record as well

Tom Moore on Dec 1 at 15:27

Video: Elton Brand on Wednesday's practice, Evan Turner's struggles and trying to establish a home-court advantage:


Turner said he'd talk tomorrow.

Tom Moore on Dec 1 at 16:14

Video: Doug Collins on Wednesday's workout, Turner's difficulties and plus-minus figures:


I can understand why the ignorant masses mindlessly repeat the mantra, "Iguodala is holding Turner back" (since most of them hate Iguodala anyway), but it's disappointing that the Sixer Beat writers (Fagan and Cooney) seem to have bought into it too. [See their blog articles from today.]

To me, there's a difference between holding someone back and simply giving someone's (Turner's) opportunities to someone else who is better (Iguodala), and one can't judge which is happening without the benefit of hindsight. In hindsight, it's clear that Iverson held Iguodala back in 05-06 and early 06-07, because Iguodala got to show multiple dimensions of his game after Iverson left (passing and playmaking, scoring off the dribble, penetrating and drawing fouls) that he couldn't show when Iverson was handling the ball all the time. But the evidence on Turner so far isn't strong either way. In the five games Iguodala missed, Turner went 23-51 from the field, 1-4 from 3, and 17-20 from the line for 64 points (12.8 PPG); and he picked up 41 rebounds (8.2 RPG), 14 assists, 11 turnovers, 5 steals, 2 blocks. He did that in 37 MPG. In other words, with the increased minutes, he produced a below-average stretch from Iguodala. While Turner was more involved in the offense and generally more aggressive during Iguodala's absence, his production didn't scream out "we have to trade Iguodala and make this guy one of the focal points of our offense."

If anything, Turner's horrible performances in the games since Iguodala returned support the notion that he (Turner) is not as effective when he doesn't get as many touches, but I have a hard time believing Iguodala's mere presence on the floor is causing Turner to pass the ball like a hot potato every time he gets it. At this point in his career, Turner has to realize he's not good enough to be the center of attention and focus on making contributions as a complementary player. He doesn't seem to have bought into that role yet (not sure if anyone else has noticed, but his rebounding numbers have dropped off in the last 5 games too). For me, Thad has been one of the most pleasant surprises of this year because he's embraced a complementary role fully. Hopefully, Turner can do the same.

This is just a question

What sort of NBA wing players are more effective the less they touch the ball?

You could argue that a guy like Sam or Reggie Evans might be more effective the less they are given the ball, but seriously, I just wonder who is consistently more effective the less they touch the ball. Guys who score, they need the ball to score right?

What sort of NBA wing players are more effective the less they touch the ball?

Players who don't dribble well, i.e., catch-and-shoot players such as Redick or Korver. If you give the ball to Korver on an isolation at the top of the key, what kind of shot will result?

Iguodala is also more effective with more touches, but he can influence a game positively without touches (such as last night, when he shut down Brandon Roy completely in the second half, or in the Pacer win earlier when he shut down Granger).

There's a difference between being able to be effective without the ball, and not being limited without the ball. Iguodala can still impact the game without the ball, but he's not going to reach max effectiveness. Kyle Korver can maintain max effectiveness without having the ball in his hands.

Wait, isn't kyle korver only effective with the ball in his hands? He's a shooter, a great shooter, but he can't do that without the ball and the rest of his game is limited? I think I"m just misunderstanding the concept

"without the ball in his hands" basically means creating opportunities. "finishers" (whether catch and shoot jumpers, guys finishing off of cuts, bigs finishing around the basket, etc) are considered "playing without the ball". It's not to be taken completely literal.

Gotcha - thanks for the clarification

" but I have a hard time believing Iguodala's mere presence on the floor is causing Turner to pass the ball like a hot potato every time he gets it."

I don't think it's necessarily that implausible, knowing Evan Turner's propensity to defer when he first joins a new level of competition. Andre Iguodala's the biggest name and most established player on the team, who also happens to share a lot of the perimeter creating responsibilities Turner's accustomed to. I don't think it's a crazy idea that Iguodala's presence does, in fact, cause Turner to be more passive (or, probably more apt, Iguodala's departure forces Turner to be more aggressive than he normally would be when getting acclimated to a new level of competition).

That doesn't mean it's Iguodala's fault, but I don't dismiss it, especially considering how he was his first year at Ohio State.

Didn't Iguodala defer to the vets a lot when he started as well?

Yeah. then again, he was playing with Iverson and Webber, so it was a little more understandable.

I think though that the principle is the same, and I prefer a guy who comes into the league who 'respects his elders' more than an egotistical loon who thinks he's the man without having proven anything.

THe problem is I don't think Iguodala EVER got over that deferral to Iverson, even when he was done near the end of his first run in Philly, or that might just be my perception

I don't think it's a crazy idea that Iguodala's presence does, in fact, cause Turner to be more passive (or, probably more apt, Iguodala's departure forces Turner to be more aggressive than he normally would be when getting acclimated to a new level of competition).

In theory, this makes sense. Turner certainly gets fewer opportunities when Iguodala is on the floor. But when Turner does get touches, he doesn't seem to be looking to score or create for others, and it isn't as if the ball is getting dumped into Iguodala all the time. If anything, Turner is just generally more passive; I don't see that he's deferring to any one player in particular. And again, getting fewer touches on offense doesn't mean his rebounding should fall off. I think he has the ability to make a positive impact with few touches, but he doesn't seem to have the mental makeup to that yet ...

I think they're pointing the finger in the wrong direction here. Iguodala has had the ball in hands less this season than in seasons past. He's basically at the end of plays on offense, coming of screens, cutting without the ball, and any plays he's making are coming from that point. His usage percentage is 19.3%.

Two guys on this team have the ball in their hands, Jrue and Lou. One of them should have the ball in his hands, the other shouldn't. Collins needs to get Lou off the ball if Turner really needs to be on the ball to feel comfortable enough to do anything on the offensive end, but he just doesn't seem willing to do it.

So what you're saying is that they need to trade LOU because he's getting in the way of Evan's development.

GOod plan - let's trade him to toronto - for TPE space :)

YES! Please let him be traded to a team who likes to watch guys go iso all the time. No club that plays TeamBasketball or requires their players to give good effort on defense would want him.

It's not like Turner's making the shots he does take. I struggle to see how his play is a function of Iguodala holding him back.

I struggle to see how any decisions regarding a players future can be made after less than 25% of his first season in the league, be it evan turner, or demarcu cousins or hassan whiteside

Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 18:04

His future? I don't want to make any decisions about his future. Keep him, play him, start him, give him isos, see what he can do. Obviously he hasn't been encouraging thus far except as far as rebounding and defense but we certainly have to explore his potential as much as possible.

Tom Moore on Dec 1 at 17:30

Collins may remove rookie Turner from starting lineup:


Likely to be Nocioni in that spot, if there is a change.

Free Jodie

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 18:35

Jodie runs like he just dropped a load in his pants.

Nice energy guy off the bench but come on now, if he's not hot he's really not going to give you more than ET, not even close.

I'm not saying he's a starter in general

I just HATE nocioni starting - for a variety of reasons - it's such a waste of time

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 19:59

i think everyone can agree there

Ed Davis makes his debut tonight!

Boozer does as well reportedly

Anyone watching Toronto tar and feather the wizards (101 after 3?) Davis Numbers don't look half bad 9 points 5 boards 2 blocks

Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 1 at 22:25

The raw athletes of the draft are doing better than expected so far (Favors, Aminu - who isn't doing all that well, but so little was expected - and now Davis with a solid first outing).

I'd rather have Perry Jones

Man oh man did i just have a frightening thought...forget about Sam, but how much better would this team be if it even had *shudder* Todd McCullough at center??

Wizards owner denies Arenas trade rumor in ridiculously equivocal terms:

“The team is trying to rebuild and Gilbert is one of the leaders on the team. Gilbert is the best player on the team right now. It isn’t true. I wouldn’t tell you if it was true but I am telling you that it is not true.”

Rich reply to Tray on Dec 2 at 3:30

Ted Leonsis said that? He better get acquainted with John Wall.

I'm sure he's acquainted fine with John Wall. What I think is required is for you (like Ed Snider) to become acquainted with negotiating tactics, spin, and pr.

Rich reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 10:47

I am aware of what he was doing, thank you. Doesn't mean it still isn't a dumb comment.

Do you want Snider to come out and say Brand is our best player if he gets placed in a trade rumor?

I want Snider not to say

"He's played his last game as a sixer" (and we can't wait to get rid of him) on national television...about any player.

It's silly to call Leonsis out for saying the correct thing to say...course if he had criticized him you probably would have called him out too for depressing his value?

Rich reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 11:53

What Leonsis did was fine, and even a little bit true to an extent. Gil's FG percentage has been awful, but he's been a relatively good soldier this year, and they young kids like him. I was alright with him even saying he's been one of their best players, that's true.

There's a difference between saying a guy is terrible and saying he's their best player though. The latter insults everyone's intelligence and it doesn't really matter. I know Orlando's though process doesn't rely on Ted Leonsis saying he's the Wiz's best player. It seems like it's not necessary.

Saying Gilbert Arenas is the best player on the wizards right now isn't insulting anyones intelligence. RIGHT NOW, he's the best NBA player on that roster. When Wall matures, learns to slow down a bit and stops turning the ball over (and his injury heals) maybe he'll be better than Arenas, but right now, overall, Gilbert is a better NBA player (not for the future but right now) on a god awful team. Heck Kirk Hinrich is one of the 3 best players on that team

Rich reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 12:14

Alright then we just disagree on that statement. I think Wall is better already, even if he's only played a few games. He's producing at a great level already.

For what it's worth, Arenas averages less than half a turnover a game less than Wall, and Wall gives out 5 more assists. A lot of the stats say Wall is better too. Maybe it doesn't insult people's intelligence, but I bet a lot of people think it's Wall.

A lot of people think a lot of things that I don't agree with, A lot of people think a lot of things that are just wrong (i'm not saying this is one of them) but they refuse to accept the evidence that proves them wrong.

Sarah Palin Supporters
Iverson belongs in the NBA supporters

to name a few groups of people (some very large groups) that believe things I think aren't all that true

I'm with Rich on this one. Wall's better already. Though that's not such a high bar.

That's a more valid point, the wizards are terrible

And the sixers lost to them twice

Even w/out getting into point differential and strength of schedule, the Sixers should absolutely, no doubt about it be a minimum of 7-11 right now. Two miracle losses to that garbage team. Ugh.

Rich reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 12:27

Absurd losses. I think this team has only put two or three stinkers (San Antonio, Indiana, at Toronto) up this year. The SA one they were on the back end of a back-to-back and outclassed. Same with Indiana, and Toronto actually. All three of those teams were at home with rest too right? They've definitely been competitive and infinitely better to watch even if they have no frontcourt defense.

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