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Sixers Lose

Yay, our best player will probably be traded by the tradeline deadline, and our high draft pick has played like a bust. Happy times....

I was wondering how you conjured up the ability to post on a game like this.

Ah well, I take it as one of those days. It's easier to forget than the last-minute losses to be honest.

Hey, they lost very very well

they played very very badly :)

check this post's picture. that is me.

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tk76 reply to joeykey on Dec 21 at 23:13
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You need to cut out some holes to see and breath. Or maybe that's part of the point?

You hope a loss like this spurs some changes, but I don't see that happening. I should rephrase that, spurs some GOOD CHANGES.

Side note, I hate when home announcers try to sugar coat losses like this. Just call it what it is, a turd sandwich from a team that isn't that good.

Spur changes? Why spur changes. Yes they got blown out, but it's one game and they've been playing pretty well before this game. What changes are you hoping for?

Well like I said last week, damn good basketball over an 8-game stretch is not a meaningful time frame in which to evaluate a team. They're still a team with not much offensive talent and legit starters at only a couple positions (in the long term, once Brand's gone), and Holiday's future top-5 point guard status looks more and more tenuous all the time. On top of which, I'm not sure what it is that Turner can do well on the NBA level besides rebound and defend adequately. It's not like he's a guy who's struggled but showed flashes of ability, he's consistently looked like a crappy shooter with little explosion or get-by ability.

How many times do people have to point out to you that Turner was bad his freshman year at OSU before you actually LISTEN and realize 'it takes him a year to adjust'

I'm going to get you some q-tips for christmas

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 21 at 22:50
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Um, maybe he was bad in his freshman year BECAUSE he's not very good. Usually players who take a couple years to dominate are not. Usually, good NBA players are capable of outplaying players a couple years older than them. How many stars do you know who left after their junior year (not counting guys who hung around for sentimental reasons)?

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Rich reply to Tray on Dec 22 at 0:43
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You are putting words in people's mouths. Nobody was evaluating the team in the long-term. We were evaluating a team for that stretch and from the beginning of the season.

Where would you "draft" Turner in this group of his peers by age?

About my Turner comments- I'm not anti-Turner. I just think a strange set of circumstances came together that led him to being last year's #2 overall pick. And in 2-3 years it won't matter where he was drafted. He will be a player judged by what he does on the floor and not where he was picked. And hopefully he figures out the NBA game to where he is an asset on the floor.

Right now I'm more focussed on the cascade of events that led him to be the #2 pick. I listed the factors above. Turner built himself into a tremendous college player- in an era where most top guys are one and done. He also was shielded from direct pre-draft competition when he was tabbed as the consensus #2 pick. And his draft class was pretty weak IMO.

So here is my question:

I think it is fair to compare current 22 year old NBA players. Sure each has there own learning curve, experiences and opportunities. But overall its probably the most fair group to compare right now- since they all should be at an age where there talent shows but they still have room to grow. Certainly more fair than comparing guys who are 3 years apart in age.

Lets looks at guys within 1 year of Turner (who just turned 22). So guys within 6 months of his birthday on either side of 22. Where picked in (). This seems to be a tremendously talented group. If you had to draft these guys today based on all available knowledge, how would you rank them? I'll give it a shot:

1. Durant (2)
2. Wall (1)
3. Griffin (1)
4. Love (5)
5. Westbrook (4)
6. E. Gordon (7)
7. Lopez (10)
8. Batum (25)
9. Mayo (3)
10. Hickson (19)
11. Gallinari (6)
12. Turner (2)
13. Thad Young (12)
14. Harden (3)
Blair
De'Andre Jordan
Flynn (6)
Beasley (2)
Casipi
Bayless
Buddinger
Pat Patterson
Aldrich
Hawes
Fields
Teague
Day

This is a ton of talent and high picks considering we are basically only looking at guys born within 1 year (21,5 - 22.5 years old today.)

Where would you "draft" Turner in this group of his peers by age?

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Dec 21 at 23:19
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I'm not ready to conceded that Turner was not the best player available at #2 in this draft (or at least was at the time...) But it is somewhat shocking that there somewhere between 10-15 current NBA player within 6 months of his age that I would take before him. Hopefully that changes over the next couple of years.

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Jason reply to tk76 on Dec 22 at 0:15
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The problem I have with all of the anti turner talk right now is that there is a very good chance that Turner's best position is Point Guard and that he his talents aren't being utilized on the sixers. Before people write off ET i think they need to see what he can do at the point and i think it's one of the underlying problems with trying to win now to get playoff experience as it's costing ET crucial game experience. Currentely in crunch time the offense runs through AI9 which to me should have been given to ET or Jrue at the beginning of this season (ET would be my preference as its a role he had in college). I also wish that ET would get more run at the point throughout the game and try Jrue off the ball as this might be the best fit between our future young players in Jrue/ET.


Anyways I rank ET above Brook lopez @ #7.

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Court_visioN on Dec 22 at 1:42
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http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/deep-sixer/Ouch.html

Fagan asks whether the last 10 games are the anomaly or the blowout loss vs. CHI. while the answer is likely somewhere in between, it seems Iguodala's pretty down on the team... either that or he's trying to rally them to prepare for boston tomorrow night.

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johnrosz reply to Court_visioN on Dec 22 at 2:20
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Isn't it a problem when the de facto leader doesn't buy in to what the franchise is selling?

Isn't it a problem when the fans presume they know what's going on in players heads?

It's not an either or question - the team isn't as bad as they played last night and they aren't as good as they 'seemed' in the past 10 (which is why hollingers rankings are silly to me). They're a mediocre team that will lose games they should win, win games they should lose, get blown out when they shouldn't, and make games close that shouldn't be.

This team is no better or worse than it was 12 games ago

Around draft time and over Summer I had the itch to talk about Turner. The itch passed when it didn't seem like there was going to be much more to say in the near term. But since it's a current hot topic here, I want to recapitulate.

What I saw in Turner was a guy who is going to be a decent pro, but probably not a star. A guy with good skills, but average athleticism and no attributes that I saw as translating to make him a game changer on the pro level. I still see things more or less the same way now. But back then I had the urge to engage with Turner's stronger supporters to figure out what they were seeing and/or how they were thinking differently from me. The narrative I put together from those interactions (stripped down to the point of oversimplification) went like this:

Turner is physically similar to Brandon Roy, but he doesn't yet shoot like Brandon Roy, and he has more experience at PG than Brandon Roy. So he could become an all star type talent if either he learns to shoot like Brandon Roy or improves his A/TO to become an NBA PG, somehow using his height to compensate for his lack of speed. At the time, and now, I saw those propositions as not super likely bets, so I was in favor of trading the pick. But they are still out there now. Turner could come back for his 2nd or 3rd year in the league and achieve success via either of those routes.

Here is some youtube video of Brandon Roy from his rookie season: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtx0wRy_Dw IMO, Turner can do everything in that video except have those shots go in at a similar percentage (okay, his release is a little lower and slower, but we can lump that stuff together). But that difference, can be all the difference in the world for a perimeter player.

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Tom Moore on Dec 22 at 8:47
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Collins confident Sixers will play better against Celtics:

http://ow.ly/3t6VY

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Tom Moore on Dec 22 at 8:47
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Am scheduled to be on WIP-AM 610 this morning at 9 with Big Daddy Graham to talk Sixers.

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Tom Moore on Dec 22 at 8:58
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Never mind. Just got a call that WIP is re-broadcasting the final eight minutes of Sunday's Eagles game, so show is shortened by 40 minutes. Maybe tomorrow. Sorry.

why the f is this discussion about turner? we don't know what his value is yet. leave it at that.

we should be discussing jrue holiday. he makes lazy passes. he plays crappy defense. he can't shoot.

sorry guys, i just really needed to vent after last nite.

It would be hilarious if Collins paraphrased Pitino: "Clarence Weatherspoon is not walking through the door. Neither is Sharone Wright or Doug Overton."


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