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J. and T. Power Sixers In Absence of I.

OK, cue the "we have to get rid of Iguodala to make room for Turner" comments. I'm ready."

Meh i'll bite. I think Jrue has played his best basketball when not playing with Iguodala.

The best game of this recent run was probably against Denver, with AI9 in the lineup.

Jrue is averaging 17.4 points, 8.4 assists, while shooting 49.2% from the field (38.9% from three) in 38 mpg in the 7 games Iguodala has missed. He's averaged 13.3 points, 5.8 assists, shot 41.6% from the field in 33 minutes when Iguodala has played.

Turner is averaging 13.1 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.3 assists on 48.5% from the field in 34 minutes per game in those games, while averaging 4.9 points on 36.4% from the field in 21 minutes when Iguodala plays.

Not interpreting why, just throwing out the stats. Now i'll step away and watch with my popcorn.

Heh. I'm going to bed.

GSW (28th), PHO (30th), NYK (23rd), CLE (26th), TOR (27th), OKC (18th), MIL (5th).

The seven games Iguodala has missed, with the team's ranking in defensive efficiency rating in parens. That might have something to do with those numbers.

Jrue and Turner were both pretty bad in the Milwaukee game, as well.

Jason reply to Derek Bodner on Dec 30 at 2:09

Do you by any chance know Jrue's Usage rate with Iguodala not playing vs playing?

Yeah Jrue was outstanding tonight from start to finish with his command of the game, and his shot selection was right on point. And even though he didn't play great D on Nash, he did just enough to bother him in some key moments. The only thing was the last quote is wrong, it goes "we have to get rid of LOU to make room for Turner." And I wouldn't say have to, but it would be nice to. If anything tonight shows how much the Sixers need Dre and his stellar defense. I'm sure we really don't want to look at Nocioni attempt to stay in front of someone on the wing.

bebopdeluxe reply to Chunky Soup on Dec 30 at 10:11

"we have to get rid of LOU to make room for Turner"


Chunky Soup: I noticed you didn't play Turner in the DF fantasy league last night (and why would you, given his recent performance). This is my first time in fantasy, and I've got to say that I hate not playing a guy who has a great game even more than playing a guy who has a terrible game (half the fun is figuring out when that will be for the non-stars).

I gotta bring it. Turner averaging 13 and 8 with Iggy in street clothes. Iggy is a good player, a stat-sheet filler, but he doesn't seem to really want to be here (the way the team erupted after Turner's dagger 3 was really nice to see, and if Iggy had been there, for whatever reason I think he just woulda stood there and not been as into it as everyone else). I think he wants a new team, and I'd be happy to see him on a new team in return for something reasonable (no giving him away for expirings, obviously).

Plus, for selfish reasons, the team is much more enjoyable to watch with Iggy not on the floor. He espouses a negative attitude (sulky demeanor, often stares up at the ceiling, walks around like he's so much better than everyone else). I really had more fun watching tonight's game than any other.

johnrosz reply to stoned81 on Dec 30 at 2:21

I want Iggy gone more than most, but come on,thats not fair to say he wouldn't give a shit about the way they played tonight. He's always the first guy off the bench cheering on the young guys, giving pointers when he's in street clothes. He's almost an extension of the assistants when he's not suiting up.

I agree he cheers on everyone else when in street clothes. But that's because he's in cheerleading mode. When he's playing, he just seems more about himself. I simply think he wants out. And saying "I just want to win" rather than "I want to be in Philly" whenever he's asked about it, that kind of proves it.

jkay reply to stoned81 on Dec 30 at 2:28

when you make your argument with your personal perceptions of something and have no evidence to back it up, you'll look like a hater.

Haters don't admit their perception is coming partially from personal feelings. I like Iggy. I think he's a good player who could help a lot of NBA teams. I don't think he wants to be here. And Turner's numbers are so astronomically better when Iggy is out, there is some evidence to back up the theory that he probably should be traded (for something of value of course).

i actually did not enjoy this game. the Suns defense tonight was legendary. the Sixers were not far behind. I file this in my 'almost meaningless wins' category.

great game by J & T though.

I have no problem with Iguodala being here if he's focused on improving his scoring numbers. I know that's not the popular opinion on this blog but that's the cold truth. Leaders score points when they are needed (read the second comment of THOUGHTS). This team needs a consistent scorer and he is supposed to be our best player that has the ability to do so. If he's content on averaging 15-16 ppg then we can get Turner or Thad to do that and they are younger and cheaper.

Great game by Turner. Anouther great game by Jrue. Jrue is really starting to separate himself as the true best player on this team game by game. If he can grow into a leader then Iguodala will definetly be moved.

CM reply to KellyDad on Dec 30 at 9:16

I completely disagree with Kelly's Dad.

The emergence of younger scorers should allow Iguodala to settle into a role of being an elite complementary player. If players like Holiday, Turner and Young can develop enough confidence/consistency to take the offensive reigns it will allow Iguodala to play to his strengths as a defender/finisher and just take what comes to him in the halfcourt offense. Until that confidence/consistency develops there will be a tendency to look toward Iguodala in tough moments b/c he still is the best player on this team.

To expect Iguodala to make significant offensive strides at this point of his career is absurd.

Is there really such thing as an "elite complimentary player"? Do you really think Iguodala doesn't have the talent to be a 20+ point scorer? Do you see him improving over the next 50 games? Do you really think this team takes a significant dip in wins if you lose his contributions this year or next? Basicly, does paying him his salary justify what he has added to this team this year?

bebopdeluxe reply to KellyDad on Dec 30 at 10:19

I think that Scootie Pippen was the definition of an "elite complimentary player".

(not to put Iggy in that class, mind you)

Lamar Odom is an "elite complimentary player"

Tayshawn Prince was an "elite complimentary player"

The difference was each of those guys played with an "elite" player.

There was (is) no question who the alpha dog was on those teams...and that is where the problem lies with Iguodala. I do not think that is is possible for the other players on this team to develop their games (and for the TEAM to develop its ideal chemistry) if Iguodala stays...unless he can find a way to accept that - for this team to succeed - he MUST become that "elite complimentary player".

If Collins can convince him of that, it would be quite a feat.

No, I do not believe that Iguodala has the "talent" to be a 20ppg scorer. Not in a way that is conducive to a 50 win team.

Regarding his salary - he's got the 4th worst contract on the team behind Brand, Nocioni and Kapono. They would have ZERO problem trading him if they wanted to.

Newsflash => professional athletes get overpaid, there are "turrible" contracts all over the NBA. Relative to what he produces, Andre's isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

What's more valuable?

1. A guy who scores 25 points/game, but is so bad defensively, the guy he's covering scores 5 more points than usual?

2. A guy who scores 20 points/game, and is average defensively, so the guy he's covering scores exactly his average?

3. A guy who scores 15 points/game, but is so good defensively, the guy he's covering scores 5 points less than usual?

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Dec 30 at 11:18

3...because his defensive intensity sets a tone that hopefully has an impact on the rest of his teammates.

Shawn reply to bebopdeluxe on Dec 30 at 11:34

I think you make a good point. The next step from stats is, how does his play affect the rest of the team, and how can he make other teammates better?

I think Iguodala has made good strides to that end, but obviously will improve as he and the rest of the roster gets older.

"Do you really think Iguodala doesn't have the talent to be a 20+ point scorer?"

I, for one, don't think he has the talent to be a 20+ ppg scorer. Never have, and I think this is one of the major problems with fans perceptions of him. He's below averaging shooting off the dribble, a below average finisher in traffic, and his first step isn't up to snuff with the rest of his athleticism.

In a weird way, knowing his limitations allows me to appreciate his strengths more.

I, for one, don't think he has the talent to be a 20+ ppg scorer.

You do realize that he was 10 points away from actually doing it in 07-08, right? Was that year a fluke?

I certainly think he has the ability to score 20 PPG on the right team, but it's not this team. As currently constructed, this team is best served with Iguodala scoring 15 PPG and shutting down his man (which he is doing this year for the most part).

I think 20PPG scorer is an arbitrary number and I'd hate to see Iguodala focus on getting to the arbitrary point to make fans happy because it would cause his overall game to suffer (which is pretty damn good if some people could get beyond 'points per game' as a barometer for anything)

No disagreement at all, my only point was that if he got that close over a full season, it's not a lack of talent preventing him from reaching the threshold in question.

It's like saying a guy who has hit 39 home runs in a season doesn't have the talent to hit 40 home runs in a season.

deepsixersuede on Dec 30 at 8:07

I agree with Chunky Soup, more Evan means less Lou and no Meeks. If Jrue, Evan and Iggy find a happy middle ground numbers wise, everything will be fine and we will be down to addressing one hole in the starting lineup. Even's efficiency blew me away last night and with Iggy's improved catch-n-shoot 3 pt. shot and Jrue finding his stroke recently, thay may work by years end.

Jrue [36 mpg ],Evan [36 mpg ], leaves Lou with 24 [mpg] by years end so things are looking up defensively also.
Use Spieghts, if Collins has given up on him, with Songalia to acquire a bigger expiring [Mohammed or Pryzbilla] that can be used for 24 minutes a night and resigned on the cheap next year and see what happens.

Don't you get that eerie feeling that Lou Williams will just be a sixer forever, and get waaaaaay too many minutes?

...At least I do, and that scares me

I used to think that about Willie Green

Shawn reply to GoSixers on Dec 30 at 10:58

I'm still shocked that happened.

"more Evan means less Lou and no Meeks"

I prefer "more Evan means less Meeks and no Lou". Congrats Lou on your new born. Please stay active in her life. I just hope we find another team that wants Lou.

eddies' heady's on Dec 30 at 10:11

Before I get my hopes up and the team inevitably brings them crashing down, I've got to just take this game from everyone with a grain of salt. I felt pretty good after the ORL game and then they go and lay that clunker at CHI (seems like an outlier now esp w/ way they bounced back next night at BOS). I don't really like to minimize victories but I can't stop telling myself that this was the Phoenix Suns and they all looked like turnstiles out there - sadly, including our team too. It was fun as hell to watch from a fan's standpoint but you just know they're going to bring us crashing down again at some point because of the abundance of youth involved. Being fun to watch, and playing quality basketball that I prefer to see at both ends are two different things though. Still gonna enjoy it, cause it's rare they look that good on offense.

johnrosz reply to eddies' heady's on Dec 30 at 13:52

no, but their fearless leader said the 8-3 stretch was a fluke, remember?

Then he came out the next night in Boston and had a critical turnover in crunch time,followed by a pathetic brick.

Believe it or not the 4th quarter defense for the Sixers was actually pretty good. A coach like Collins realizes that stops are just as important as made baskets down the stretch of a game. To me I think there is no reason why they need to trade Andre and would be better served to add to a team with him rather then take him off this team. With a defensive big man and perhaps a back up point guard they would be more of a complete team.

eddies' heady's reply to Rob_STC on Dec 30 at 11:38

Eh, I've been trying to figure out if the defense was really that good getting so-called stops or if the Suns just finally went a little cold and were missing what they mostly had been making up to that point in the game.

The three-point defense was decidedly better in the second half and Jrue did a much better job on Nash. It didn't hurt that Vince Carter kept shooting, either.

The offense in this one was fun to watch, but it's really not something they can rely on.

Jrue was 7/10 from 16-23 feet.
Turner was 5/5 from 16-23 feet.
The team was 16/27 from 16-23 feet.

They only had 10 attempts at the rim, and honestly, I thought they got the better of the calls from the refs.

So - Lip reader fail

There were plenty of questionable calls that didn't go the Suns' way, including an out-of-bounds call late in the fourth quarter that went to the Sixers -- one that Steve Nash was certain should have gone in his team's favor. For a few brief moments, Nash completely lost it, picking up a technical foul for demonstratively arguing with the official who made the call. Nash continued to protest after he was whistled for the technical, and seemed as though he was trying to get the second one called so he could take an early shower. Two sources sitting close enough to hear Nash's comments independently confirmed the statement he made to Alvin Gentry but was clearly directed at the official: "I'm going to f*****g punch one of these motherf*****s in the face."

Nash should've had a tech in the first half, too.

That little series of plays really turned the game, btw.

Nash hit a three to cut the lead to five. Jrue answered immediately w/ a jumper to push it back to 7, then forced the turnover on Nash (Turner hit the FT to push it back to 8), then Jrue got fouled (to push it to 9), Nash hit a runner, then Turner hit that three to push it back up to 10.

Yes, I was hoping someone could find video to show the nash first half diatribe that didn't get a tech versus the two the sixers got

I definitely agree with people that if Jrue or Turner were to become elite scorers, we would want to keep Iguodala around. Now, why anyone would think that's likely to happen I don't know, but sure, if it were to happen you'd keep the elite defender who does all the little things.

Why would anyone conclude after less than a season and a half for one and a half season for the other that it wouldn't happen, I don't know, it seems like jumping to conclusions with not enough evidence to convict.

Do you remember this comment you made on the I heart Ty thread last year?

"How many years do you suppose it will take before Holiday can score 67 points in 3 games on 64% shooting? Or even 45% shooting?"

It was 11 months before he bettered that type of three-game stretch.

Technically, Jrue only shot 63.27%.

Technically that's more than 45% though :)

28/44 = 63.63%, right? I was rounding. He also scored 69, as opposed to Ty's 67, but I didn't want to rub it in.

This team is close to being good.... They need to find a team that has some talent to trade iggy and speights or lou willams to.... how about iggy, and lou to wizards for Mcvee and nick young Gives sixers a shooter and young athletic center...

And makes the sixers worse, and of course the wizards have denied the rumors that mcgee (on a rookie deal) is on the market - let alone nick young (also on a rookie deal)

The sixers will not be a better team if you trade Iguodala

jkay reply to stevo on Dec 30 at 14:50

Nick Young is a bigger version of Lou.

Wasn't it against the Suns last year that Jrue had his "breakout" game? I vaguely remember him coming in and hitting some threes and making some plays down the stretch last year. It might have even been in Phoenix. ET's performance (especially the two passes) had me goin back to his college highlights to remind myself how talented this kid really is. He seems like a good guy in his interviews and in that Yahoo story. I really hope he firgures it out. And I love playing against the Suns.

I don't think so

Box @ Phoenix

Box Score Home against Phoenix He did well but only 15 minutes of time.

speeke reply to GoSixers on Dec 30 at 15:17

yea i was thinking that game at home against Phoenix. Jrue came off the bench (only played 15 minutes) and went 2-3 from deep and had two big steals (probably against Dragic, who got abused by all our guards last night). Holiday also had two assists and three rebounds. No incredible stat line or true breakout performance, but i think i was watchin it with my dad and we were both impressed with how well a 19-20 year old kid was playing. We defifnately saw some flashes in that one. Thanks for the game stats GoSixers

A couple quick Turner comments about last nights game, both very positive:

* I thought he scored his points without dominating the ball. If I recall correctly, there weren't many plays at all where he scored off isolation. If that's the case, there's no reason at all why Iguodala's presence on the court would detract from Turner's ability to score as he did (catch and shoot, or catch, make one move, and shoot).
* I was impressed with his defense on Grant Hill. Hill was giving Thad all kinds of trouble (so much for my belief that Thad wouldn't be hurt too much by Hill), but I'm not sure Hill had any points when Turner was covering him. It almost makes me wish the Sixers would start Turner on Friday (if Iguodala is back), because Turner would do better on Artest than Meeks.

I just watched the game. The big thing I thought was that Turner was more assertive. Obviously he was feeling it to the point where everything was dropping and he's not gonna shoot the ball like that every night. My thing is that he could be a lot like Paul Pierce is now: He's gotta get to his spots. One spot he likes is that foul line pull-up jumper. He's not a supreme athlete, but long and tall enough to have that fadeaway down. I don't really get why he dribbles straight at guys sometimes: He doesn't have that kind of athleticism. What he has are all kinds of change of pace moves and great ball handling skills.

Just keep playing the kid, see if he can string some good efforts together.

What do you think it'll take, one or two more games like this to officially end the Jodie Meeks era?

Rich reply to Brian on Dec 30 at 20:25

From Jodie or Turner? Last night they both made a pretty strong case to switch places.

Jodie's going on about 10 like this now, right? I think another couple solid games from Turner will do the trick.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Dec 30 at 23:36

I hope that last night was Turner's way of telling Collins and the rest of the coaching staff, "Jodie Meeks? Here's your fucking Jodie Meeks..."

And if that was Collins' goal in the first place (get Turner so pissed off that he would finally show the fuck up), then good for him.

Start Turner (and tell him to SHOOT THE FUCKING BALL). Trade Lou. Give Meeks most of Lou's minutes.

Hell...that might work so well that we don't need to trade Iguodala.

And one more thing...


deepsixersuede reply to bebopdeluxe on Dec 30 at 23:40

I know WE don't consider Lou a p.g. but in D'Antonios system does he work backing up Felton? I would love to let Collins get his hands on the big russian [Mozgov] who can't get off the bench lately.

Why would Lou fit in D'antoni's system. The point guards in the system while they score also pass a lot, Lou doesn't pass a lot.

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