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What's Missing?

Good post.

"an athletic big would be a solid"


How do you define an athletic Big, and how many Athletic Bigs are there in the league?

Guys who can go catch a lob and finish? I don't think they're that rare. Finding one who can rebound and defend as well is harder, obviously.

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Steve v on Jan 6 at 12:35
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We should take a flier on Sean Williams, Thorn and Stefanski drafted him and he is dominating the d keagye right now, coming off a 22 point 22 rebound performance. He was a high potential guy out of bc and would fit the athletic big need. Worth a shot IMO.

His rights aren't owned by anyone, right?

I think it's unlikely they'd take a flier on a guy who could disrupt the locker room, though. Thorn experienced Williams' antics firsthand, so he'd probably have to be convinced the guy has matured off the court before anything he does on the court even mattered.

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Steve v reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 13:16
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Nope no one has his rights, he had a quick stint with dallas last year, but they got Haywood. I don't think he's a disrupter he's just had some legal troubles. If Thorn sees he's starting to realize some of his potentialnhe could take a look. I don't think he's a significant enough player to cause problems in the locker room.

10-day contract would be basically no-risk. Seems like a no-brainer, he fits perfectly into the athletic big you're describing. But it's very possible Thorn had a bad experience with him on a personal level, which would definitely end any Sean Williams discussion before it begins. I hope we give him a shot.

Another point to consider is that when Jrue is off the floor, the ball sticks badly. Lou doesnt pass, ET only passes, and the bigs go 1on1 far too often, including Brand. I find that the movement on the offensive end is meaningless and the offball screens are one and done per possession. Some of it is effort and some of it is personnel. I personally think these types of improvements come with team chemistry and player experience.

Thoughts?

I think ball movement is tough to achieve when you have a guy just dribbling the air out of the ball for 15 seconds at the top of the key. Lou really isn't a PG, and it's got to be frustrating to try to run through the offense when he's doing that. I'd like to see Turner handling the ball w/ the second unit, but it rarely happens.

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Marty reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 12:58
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I'm with you on that Brian - still not sure why we don't see a stint each game with Turner at PG and Lou at SG. They could switch on D if match-up problems are a concern. As far as what's missing - I don't think you necessarily need a highlight reel finisher on the pick-and-roll. Stockton and Malone perfected it Karl definitely wasn't an above the rim player. Just need a PF/C upfront with good feet that understands positioning and has a little athletic ability.

Yeah, part of my point here is that you can make a guy who isn't necessarily gifted with a ton of offensive moves very productive when you have perimeter players like Jrue and Iguodala. They're going to set him up, basically all he needs to do is catch and finish. This is why I thought Favors would've flourished in Philly, but it's also why I think you can fill that position w/out getting a superstar. He can really be a one-way player w/out a host of offensive moves and still be productive on that end of the floor. Much more productive than Hawes and his infinite ball friendliness.

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Marty reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 13:04
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And on that note, I'd love to see a deal with the Rockets where we move Igoudala for Battier, Jeffries, and Patrick Patterson. I like Patterson's potential (Horace Grant?) and Battier & Jeffries are expirings. Plus Battier can give you some (not all, obviously) of what you'd be losing with Dre.

Interesting trade, why does Houston do it?

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Marty reply to GoSixers on Jan 6 at 13:33
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I think based on Morey's comments when they traded for Kevin Martin, that he focuses on adding championship pieces. Maybe I have rose-colored glasses on, but I think Igoudala can be a championship piece. I think he compliments Martin and Scola really well. Gives Houston a legitimate Kobe stopper, and probably the #1 wing defender in the league. Battier turns 33 before the start of next season and is a free agent - is he part of the long-term plan there? Jeffries literally doesn't play at all so he's just filler to make the deal work. I think Patterson is available bc they still have a young big (Jordan Hill) and depth upfront (Chuck Hayes). Shoot, they'll still have depth at SF if this trade went through (T. Williams & Budinger). They'd also still have some cap flexibility with Yao expiring as well.

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Jason reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 13:45
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Would be an awful Deal for Houston, they would end up in the sixers place of mediocrity with Iguodala and not being good enough. Would lose all cap space so essentially by acquiring Iguodala they are effectively signing Iguodala to a 4 year 54 million deal, It's not bad value for Iguodala, but to spend that money on a player that doesn't help you get over the hump to win a championship is silly. Especially when you realize they are trading a mid first rounder in Patterson to get him on top of this.

That said, you never know what happens. Teams don't make good deals, happens every year.

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Marty reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 13:54
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Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Let me ask you this - who would the Rockets sign in the off-season that's better than Igoudala? I don't understand the concept of not using up cap space on someone in a trade to try and save it for the off-season, when the guy you're potentially trading for is better than anyone you're gonna sign in free agency. Take Jeffries out of the equation (he doesn't play at all), the deal is basically Igoudala for Battier, Patterson. Are you saying the upgrade of Igoudala over Battier isn't worth Patterson (to the Rockets)? Maybe - but Patterson is no sure thing. All I know is if you told me the Sixers could have Martin-Igoudala-Scola for the next 3-5 seasons with other role guys like Lowry, Lee, Hill, and Williams signed too, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Can't see why Houston would feel differently.

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Jason reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 14:02
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Teams don't have to spend their cap flexibility all in one off season. Just like OKC didn't spend their Cap $$$$ on Boozer in the off season because Boozer wouldn't take them to the next level. Simply put you sign Iguodala you won't be improving your team for another 3 years. So basically the Houston Rockets have to win a championship with

Aaron Brooks/Kevin Martin/Iguodala/pattersonor hill/Scola


That team isn't winning a championship. We know that, so why would they give up their cap flexibility on a player that won't win them a championship? Just because a Team can't sign anyone better doesn't mean they should sign them.

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Marty reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 14:07
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We know that? Take a look at the Western Conference - the Lakers, Mavs, and Spurs aren't getting any younger. You don't think Boozer would've made OKC championship contenders?? Seems like he's doing that for CHI. Where are they going to get the post presence they need now? Melo is a goner from Denver and Portland is a mess. The only team that's truly "set up" for the future is Utah. So why can't a core of Martin-Igoudala-Scola compete for a championship next year? They still have a $17M expiring contract (Yao) that they could move too (or re-sign, if he's healthy).

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Jason reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 14:35
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You do realize that you just stated about 5 different things that have to happen for Houston to become a contender right?

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Marty reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 14:50
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Five things? Trade for Igoudala, trade Yao for a useful big. Boom. Contender.

Yao Ming's only trade value is that he's a giant expiring contract (and there are lots of those this year) with some insurance so you don't have to pay the whole thing. This whole 'houston is shopping yao' thing is insane - houston can't stand to lose the income of the country of china that yao provides them - even when he's hurt

I'm not sure how Patterson has become (a) a legit big man in the NBA and (b) more valuable than Iguodala.

It's not just Patterson (it's foolish if it is) it's the composite of the deal and the whole 'rockets plan'. Plus Yao is done, do they have any other big men options than Patterson?

if you trade Iguodala to the Rockets - you're taking back kevin martin.

Read this morning that Martin isn't available.

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Marty reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 14:21
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Not surprising. Why would Morey want to trade him? Most efficient he's ever been in his career. Trading Martin for Igoudala makes no sense. Adding Igoudala to compliment Martin makes total sense.

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Jason reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 14:09
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I don't know how Kaman isn't better than Kapono/Songaila, but you said you'd rather stand pat. Apply that Logic to the houston side of this deal. If they go after Iguodala that's it. They can't improve their team much more. Is Igudoala making them a championship contender?


Now maybe they move 16 of their 32 million in expirings and get a legitimate superstar, and then they'd have interest in Iguodala as they wouldn't have cap space in the future anyway they of course would go after Iguodala and give up pattrick patterson.

I don't know how Kaman isn't better than Kapono/Songaila, but you said you'd rather stand pat.

ANd the clippers wouldn't make that deal, but hey what can you do.

Kaman is injury prone in case you missed it

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Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 6 at 20:51
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You missed the point of the post. He said that Houston would be fools to do it b/c of iguodalas talent is better than what they are giving up and I was trying to point out he wouldn't do a Kaman for ECs even though the talent is better than what the sixers are giving to try and point out that Houston might not want to do ECs+Patterson for Iguodala just because Iguodala is good.

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Jason reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 20:53
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and i don't recall if he said they'd be fools, so don't quote me on that or try to correct me. meant to say that he said Houston would do it in a heartbeat because of Iguodalas talent vs what they are giving out. Was just going off the top of my head to start that post, been a long day.

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noah reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 14:07
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Jason, you couldn't really be more wrong. Houston will have plenty of cap space still because they'll have Yao's $18 mil coming off the books. With so many young players already in the fold (Lowry, Hill, T Williams, Aaron Brooks, Courtney Lee, Chase Budinger) and a ton of draft picks (an extra 2 1st rounders and 3 2nd rounders over the next two years), Houston is in prime position to rebuild on the fly. With solid veterans like Kevin Martin and Scola already locked up long-term, they would be just a talented big away from being back in contention.

As far as fit, Iguodala makes a ton of sense because they already have great perimeter shooters, but lack perimeter defense. If we're gonna make a deal, Houston has the best and most trade chips to offer in the league.

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Marty reply to noah on Jan 6 at 14:09
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+1

Houston has a ton of cash, the fit, and the assets

And Carmelo won't sign with them

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Jason reply to noah on Jan 6 at 14:13
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They have a Quantity of Picks. But no real Quality picks. Maybe they strike gold, but i wouldn't count on it.


Also here would be their cap situation with Iguodala going into next year
Iguodala-13.5 mill
Kmart-12 Mill
Scola 8.5 Mill
Lowry 5.75 mill
Brad Miller 4.7 mill
Hill 3 mill
Terrence Williams 2.3 mill
Brooks 3 mill
Patterson 2 million


53 million, so roughly 3 mill in cap space.

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Marty reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 14:20
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Tough to say exactly what the cap space would be (since the CBA is up), but say it is only $3M - they're still in better shape than 3/4 of the NBA just by being under the cap and having a little more flexibility than they would being over it. I think the basic disagreement here is how good a Martin-Igoudala-Scola trio would be. I look at the Western Conference and see a bunch of old teams giving it one last go around this year before fading to the sunset (Mavs, Spurs), a Lakers team in trouble, and a bunch of other teams at crossroads (Hornets, Nuggets, Blazers). Really only Utah, OKC, and the Clippers are set up for the future with substantial young talent. I'd take my chances with Martin-Iggy-Scola and Yao (or whatever Yao gets you).

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Jason reply to noah on Jan 6 at 14:21
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"be just a talented big away from being back in contention."


Sorry, getting a little worked up about this. I apologize.

Simply put Houston would need to get the big first. The sixers made the mistake of trying to build around Iguodala and that's not correct. Houston does have a lot of flexibility right now, but the first step for houston is to acquire the Quality big. Once they do that then we can entertain the plausbility of them trading for Iguodala. But to Trade for Iguodala now and then hope to find the big later is the absolutely wrong thing to do.

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Marty reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 14:25
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Since when is Scola not a talented big? 19 ppg, 8.3 rpg

I think everyone's missing the point here. If the Sixers get expiring contracts and Patrick Patterson in return for Iguodala, Rod Thorn has officially been raped. Whether the Rockets would do it or not doesn't really mean anything to me.

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Marty reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 14:36
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Really? Battier isn't exactly a bum. Jeffries is a throw in, but certainly doesn't hurt that his deal is expiring. And how can you possibly be against adding Patterson? Not sure what else you're looking for in an Igoudala deal. A draft pick? You're getting a starting SF, cap flexibility, and a big with potential. You're not getting a star back for Dre. You're just not. What do you honestly expect to get back for him?

This deal is two expiring contracts and a middle first round pick in Patterson. A middling first round pick who's played 100 minutes for Houston, a team bereft of any kind of defense up front.

I'd like at least one usable piece, for the long term. Doesn't need to be a star, but it needs to be more than an undersized big who can't crack Houston's rotation.

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Marty reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 14:48
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Brian, with all due respect we have the #2 pick in the draft who has gotten healthy DNP's this year and probably hasn't really deserved the minutes he's gotten this year, yet we still hold out hope that he'll be ok. You're going to label Patterson a bust halfway through his rookie year bc he can't play ahead of veterans like Scola, Yao, Miller, and Hayes? Come on - you're better than that. Have you read anything about Patterson? Apparently his work ethic is 2nd to none. He certainly isn't "bereft" of talent. Look what he did the other night in 25 minutes (against TOR).

Read my comment again. I said the team is bereft of defensive talent up front, and Patterson still can't crack the rotation.

The guy is an undersized four. I didn't think he would amount to anything coming out of college and nothing he's done since has changed my mind. It's good to hear he's got a great work ethic, if that work ethic can make him grow 3 inches or so, I might be a little bit interested. For now, he's not a building block. He's a middle-first-round pick who can't get on the floor for a team that desperately needs interior defense.

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Marty reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 15:02
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He's 6'9! I feel like I'm on crazy pills!! Some coaches don't play rookies for whatever reason - rotations, philosophy, I don't know. I must have watched a different Patrick Patterson last year in college than you.

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deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 15:03
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I like Patterson and think he could be a C.Landry type but that is not what we need here. But if we got a solid center and Patterson was brought in to be Elton's replacement I would be fine with that.

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Jason reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 14:44
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It doesn't help the sixers short term, and it doesn't really help them out long term.

Battier isn't exactly a bum

He's older than elton brand - he's closer to the end of his career than the middle - it's asinine to obtain players who make this team older

Thank you Brian. Finally someone explained the situation as it is. Patterson + expirings is horrible horrible value for Iguodala. The reasons are simple:

a) Paterson is probably worse (and quite possibly has less value) than Speights right now. Would any of you trade Iguodala for Speights. He's been a DNP CD for most of the season.
b) If we are trading with Houston for young talent and expirings the trade must look something like this:

Paterson, J.Hill, one of their first round picks, Jeffries, filler

And honestly i don't like even that trade. Houston doesn't really have a promising youngster that can be a starter on a championship team. All of the young guys they have are rotation players, nothing more than that.

And finally, saying that Houston wouldn't do it is ridiculous. A Brooks/Lowry, Martin, Iguodala, Scola core is a decent (not a star just decent) center away from championship contention. That trade would be a godsend for the Rockets. And cap space is useless most of the times. Most teams strike out in free agency and end up f***** up for the next half a decade because they decided to save the money. That's before we even get to the pending CBA maelstrom in the coming summer.

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Marty reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:12
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Well we certainly agree on the Houston part, lol. I'd love to get Patterson AND Hill in a deal with them. Look, will either be a star? Probably not. But at least at their age, they have a chance. I'll always take a shot with athletic bigs (Hill) or fundamentally sound bigs (Patterson). Just not loafy, crappy bigs (Hawes, Speights). If we can get a #1 and an expiring too, even better. And I do think Patterson > Speights. Speights work ethic sucks. Not the case with Mr. Patterson.

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deepsixersuede reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:13
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I think his 2 main reasons for not playing are Scola [big contract] and Hayes, who is a big Adelman favorite. He is a good young player who is behind some good talent. Comparing him to Spieghts, who isn't playing because of effort isn't fair. I would drive Spieghts to the airport if we traded them straight up .

The situation s simple: If he can't beat out Hill, Hayes and Miller even for garbage time minutes something is definitely wrong with him. Hell, even Jeffries played more than him. And he was supposed to be one of the most NBA ready rookies. On top of that Paterson doesn't really have a lot of upside. He was projected to be a rotation player, possibly a 6th 7th man. That's where he was drafted, that's exactly what you can expect from the 14th pick in the draft. Would you trade Iguodala (who everybody calls a 2nd or 3rd option on a contender) for a 7th man?

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Marty reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:29
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Paul Millsap averaged 6pts and 5rpg his first two years in the league. The guy is 6'8". Certainly not a freak athlete. Now he's an 18/8 guy. Good thing Utah didn't give up on him after halfway through his rookie year.

Millsap was considered to have more upside than Paterson when he was drafted. The only reason why he was drafted that low was size. And he showed much more as a rookie than Paterson has so far (granted he has half a season to establish himself as a prospect).

The whole point however that i am trying to make is that if a guy is young or is in his 1,2 or 3rd year in the NBA doesn't mean he is a truly promising youngster that can become a top4 player on a team. And a potential top4 player on a team is exactly what i am looking for in an Iguodala trade.

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deepsixersuede reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:38
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Hill and Miller are just playing the 5 this year and Hayes may be their best defender, next to Battier. I don't think you can lock Patterson at this point into being a bench guy. Houston is way better than us yet Nucioni is getting minutes over Turner at times, you can't read too much into it.

If Iggy is traded to Houston I hope they inquire about Patterson and Hill.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 15:29
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agree with Brian, wholeheartedly. they can do much better than 2 expirings and a rotation big...

Once Melo is moved, you'd assume Iggy will be the cream of the deadline crop. I anticipate picks, legit young pieces, and maybe an expiring.

I don't think thats too much to ask for. They're not going to take players back that are older than Iguodala.

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Jason reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 14:28
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Don't ask me, i was just copying what Noah said they needed after they got iguodala

"JThey'd just be one big away" so i copied it and told him that's what they'd focus on first unless they are a poorly ran franchise, which is possible. But let's not assume that when making trade scenarios as then we'd see an increased amount of Iguodala for crap trades popping up around the net.

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Marty reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 14:43
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Maybe Brian's written a post on this before, so I apologize if I'm late to the game with this - but seriously what do people realistically think we can get for Igoudala? I think in a perfect world, an expiring, a #1 pick, and a young player (preferably 1st or 2nd year) with potential, would be the best possible deal. Like I said above, I don't see how you add a "superstar" by trading Igoudala; you're best hope is getting a young player who could become one. Guys I like - Paul George, Patrick Patterson, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, Batum, Kevin Love, Galinari, Stephon Curry. To me you gotta do a deal that gets you one of those guys.

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deepsixersuede reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 14:54
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If we trade Iggy I hope it is because he, Jrue and Turner prove they don't work together and a shooter is needed at the s.f. spot. My list of s.f.'s that can spread the floor are Batum, Casspi, D.Wright,and Budinger.

Jason mentioned a Nucioni clone the other day and Casspi is very similar. At 6'9" and he seems willing to defend and is young and inexpensive. A package of Casspi, Thompson, Whiteside and capspace would be a good starting point with Sacramento.

I would be on board with that.

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deepsixersuede reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 15:23
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I wonder if Thorn is confident enough in Collins to take a shot on a couple young unfullfilled prospects and cap room for Iggy feeling their odds of succeeding are high because of Collins approach.

Sacramento needs some veteran leaders and if Iggy and A.Miller were traded for they may turn it around. Miller and Evans aren't a good fit but Evans may learn from being around him.

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Tomas Perez reply to deepsixersuede on Jan 6 at 15:19
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i would for sure do that trade. that is about as much as i think we could get.

Yeah I wouldn't want to go after a guy unless he could contribute some defense and rebounding. What do you think of Varejao? Of the guys who the Sixers could get to replace Hawes, he might be the best available option since cleveland has gone into the tank. Would he be good fit with the team especially Jrue?

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Shawn reply to Chunky Soup on Jan 6 at 13:21
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Varejao has a ton of money left on the books, so I don't think its an option. I like him as a player, I think he is championship caliber as a piece.

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Marty reply to Shawn on Jan 6 at 13:39
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I think you could do a lot worse than Varejao. I actually see his contract length as a benefit - you'd have a 28 year old center for the next four years at an ok rate (in comparison, a much worse 32-year old Brendan Haywood has a similar deal). I also think he'd compliment Brand well. Just not sure what we have that Cleveland would be interested in - Igoudala? Turner??

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Shawn reply to Marty on Jan 6 at 13:42
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Agreed, I think it's one of those things where timing matters. At the time the Sixers would sign him, we'd again lose our flexibility to sign higher priced talent. Let's say you're over the luxury tax, then trade for him to go into the luxury, and then it makes sense for me.

Again, I agree with your points.

His contract has four years left on it and a new cba and you're worried about 4 years from now?

Only if he gets a hair cut

Yes I think you are right about the contract. Four years at about 36 million total is not bad for a quality starting center. If they can get a decent deal, it might be best to lock that in now as opposed to wait for next year when the Sixers might not be able to sign anyone. Or worse think that their best option is resigning Hawes. Plus I would rather they give money to a player like Varejao as opposed to someone like Thad who even though he's been playing well is still more of a role player.

Speights definitely still has the requisite athleticism to finish some easy lobs... the problem with him is he can't recognize the opportunities nor get himself in the right position to receieve one. He's definitely lost some bounce but the real reason is he just doesn't know how.

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deepsixersuede on Jan 6 at 14:43
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After reading about the center crop in this years draft, our big will probably have to come from in the league already. K.Benson as the 3rd best center and he probably isn't even a starting NBA player.

Houston has the young assets to probably get Camby and Iggy, if Camby would go there. He said he lives there in the offseason. Does Camby, Scola,Iggy,Martin and Lowry win a title?

Brian, how would Elton feel about Sam being back? Defensively it would be nice but Elton seems to be a different player on the offensive end this year. Is it more his health and the coaching?

Nobody wins a title just be name recognition. Nobody knows just how good they would be. But i'd say they have a legit shot at a title with that team and Adelman as the coach as long as they stay healthy and have a decent bench. That's probably a better team (or at least on par) than Dallas and San Antonio are right now.

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Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 14:59
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Sixers won't bring Dalembert back unless they're desperate and it's at a deep discount.

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Jason reply to Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 15:01
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Do you mean during Free Agency?

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Tom Moore reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 15:10
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Yes. Been there, done that. The perception is he's not a Collins-type player.

Yes. Been there, done that. The perception is he's not a Collins-type player.

So, Doug Collins, ostensibly a defensive minded coach - wouldn't want one of the best defensive big men in the league but thinks guys like Nocioni and Hawes are collins-type players?

I'd be interested to hear Collins tell us the truth about a trade that was made without his input?

I'd love to hear collins talk about how hawes is better for this team than sam.

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T McL reply to GoSixers on Jan 6 at 15:54
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Don't shoot the messenger (Tom in this case).

Collins is defense oriented but I can understand him not wanting Sam in the locker room. We all see what Sam does on the court and know it's useful, but a lot of NBA coaching is player management. Managing Sam just might not seem worth it.

Could someone show me a quote from a sixer player who said sam was bad in the locker room - because honestly - eddie jordan was a fucking moron and if it was a bad locker room for the players - it was his fault - and i'm sure many were vocal about him being a moron.

This locker room bullshit is an excuse, when you win who gives a shit about the locker room nonsense - its's the fucking argument about chemistry that allows david eckstein to keep playing baseball - great locker room guy i'm sure BUT HE SUCKS

I'd put the odds of the Sixers signing dalembert this summer at less than 1%.

Stefanski is still employed by this team, and he essentially paid Sacramento to take him. No one puts that much egg on their face in the NBA.

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Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 15:00
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Injured Iguodala unsure when he'll be back playing again:

http://ow.ly/3zy9e

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deepsixersuede reply to Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 15:06
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Tom, any clue to what Spieghts isn't doing in practice to not get minutes. He seems like he could get 10 and 6 in his sleep.

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Tom Moore reply to deepsixersuede on Jan 6 at 15:12
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Speights has become a 15- to 20-foot jump shooter. He has some good inside moves, but had pretty much abandoned them in favor of jumpers. Has gone to the basket more in the last two games, which is a good sign.

At the defensive end, Speights hadn't seemed to be giving much effort (like a bigger Williams). His primary goal was to try to draw a charge on every play. Again, he has improved somewhat in that area.

At the defensive end, Speights hadn't seemed to be giving much effort (like a bigger Williams). His primary goal was to try to draw a charge on every play. Again, he has improved somewhat in that area.

Could you ask Doug what Hawes does better defnsively than Speights? Hawes might seem to give effort - but if it's useless - why is it any better? At least Spegihts helps on one end of the floor?

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Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 15:15
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Part of the problem with the half-court offense is Meeks struggling from the perimeter. He's always been streaky and that trend continues. If he's making shots, it opens things up for Brand and others.

After going 23-for-41 (58.5 percent) from the field, including 17-for-26 (65.4 percent) from 3-point range, while averaging 17.5 points in his first four starts, Meeks is 26-for-94 (27.7 percent) and 12-for-49 (24.5 percent) with an 8.2-point average in the last 13.

As Collins said, Meeks is really best suited to coming off the bench. But the Sixers need a shooter out there for spacing because Holiday, Turner and Iguodala are too similar.

Exactly. If you can have a guy who will ONLY relentlessly run off screens and be a consistent and dependable shooter, without really needing the ball and creating anything else, the offense would look much better.

Best player on the NBA in that mold Ray Allen. Best idea that i can come up with as a trade target (since noone on our team is good enough to play that role) is OJ Mayo.

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Tom Moore reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:29
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As long as the Sixers don't play cards ...

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Marty reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:32
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Rip Hamilton?

Too old and isn't really a three point threat. Otherwise he fits.

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Marty reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 16:13
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Didn't you just say Ray Allen was "the best player in that mold"? Hamilton is shooting 40% from 3 this year, and is three years younger than Ray Allen.

Allen was just an example not a target. They are both old.

Reddick is an interesting idea, although i'm not sure he is good enough. He seems to have improved defensively though which is a plus.

Reddick would be a really, really good fit, imo.

In the game today, I'd put Stephen Curry as my #1 target as far as a perimeter player goes.

Oh yeah you're right, Reddick would be a solid get for the Sixers. I wonder if the Magic would be open to moving him since they have so many guys who play the 2 spot now. Would you give up maybe like Thad + Battie? That could work for Orlando too I think since they lost Pietrus and Gortat.

I played with that stupid trade machine fora LONG time with JJ Redick (about two weeks ago?)

It's impossible for a straight up deal to work because Redick is a BYC - so his salary only counts as half in the deal - but both teams are over the cap - matching just doesn't work. I tried many combos - 3 temam maybe but those are hard to make work.

(PS - love all this redick love now - where were folks when i brought it up or is it just universally a bad idea when i bring someone up?:) )

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Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 6 at 21:22
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You can make it work if you just have the Magic use their trade exception to take back the incoming salary.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=26pkdgd


Thanks

Every time i tried to use one of the trad exceptions the machine wouldn't let me - weird.

Yes i'd make that deal

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deepsixersuede reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 15:47
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It seems like a lost art and guys like Redick and B.Gordon seem to be exceptions.

Ben Gordon doesn't really fit that mold anymore. They need the second coming of Reggie Miller.

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Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 16:37
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How about this?

Lou Williams’ 12-point fourth quarter against the Wizards was his fifth double-digit final period of the season. No other Sixer had more than two in 2010-11.

Which games? Were they all wins?

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 17:08
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Good question. Would have to go through them. Know Wednesday and Nov. 27 vs. Nets were wins. Believe he also did it in fourth quarter of Nov. 2 OT loss to Washington. Used to be a big garbage-time numbers guy (just like Larry Hughes before him), but not so much lately.

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Sean reply to Tom Moore on Jan 6 at 17:20
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Last night's game, 1st OT loss to WAS, road win vs. a depleted Orlando team, win vs. Cleveland at home, and home win vs. the Nets.

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Tom Moore reply to Sean on Jan 6 at 22:40
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So 4-1. Thanks.

Like Brian was saying, the Sixers need a talented young big who can finish at the. The ideal would be someone like Ibaka.

I'm just not seeing anyone like that available- unless maybe Portland want to trade away Camby. But trading for a 30+ year old seems shortsighted.

Can anyone ID an athletic big that could be available? I know people were talking McGee last week... anyone else?

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 6 at 16:50
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As mentioned above, Speights his rookie year was that type of athletic player. Then injuries and munchies ate away at his knees.

Don't think he really fits this mold, but how would you feel about the Sixers going after Kendrick Perkins this summer?

Some other names of guys who fit the mold:

Tyrus Thomas (too expensive, probably)
Chris Andersen (too expensive, too old?)
DeAndre Jordan
Larry Sanders (hey now.)
Anthony Randolph
Serge Ibaka
Gortat
Robin Lopez
Hassan Whiteside
Amir Johnson
JaVale McGee
Derrick Favors

That's a quick and dirty list just from a once over on the rosters. I'm sure there are more young guys who haven't done anything yet.

That's a nice and fairly thorough and accurate list IMO. The problem with the list: it contains guys with some serious flaws (Thomas, Jordan, Johnson, Andersen), guys that are too injury prone (Randolph, Lopez), guys that aren't even good just look good on paper (Whiteside) and worst of all guys that are really good but are untouchable (Ibaka, Favors).

The only 2 realistic targets on that list are probably Sanders and Randolph. Gortat and McGee may be worth it, but they are fairly hard to get (not impossible though).

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tk76 reply to Xsago on Jan 6 at 17:34
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So:

Iguodala + Lou

for

Curry + Randolph + Gallinari + Douglass

Hmmn.

Jrue, Turner, Danillo, Brand, Randolph

Douglass, Young, Hawes, Speights, Meeks

Kapono, Nocioni, Songaila, Battie, Curry.

That's the roster you're left with. Curry, Kapono and Hawes come off the books next summer. The Sixers would have $47M committed (assuming Thad signs for his QO and Hawes walks).

I don't like Randolph, at all, but you wouldn't be committing a lot to him, and I like how he fits the team much better than how Hawes fits the team.

I might just do that. I like how Danillo fits. I love Douglass as the guard off the bench instead of Lou. It gives you cap flexibility.

Of course, if Turner doesn't pan out, you're completely 100% fucked.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 17:57
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I'm not sure what has happened to AR. Injuries or is he like Speights? He does not resemble the athlete that entered the league. But maybe he bounces back with Jrue at PG and more touches?

As for Turner being the key to that team... I don't agree. With Jrue's emergence as a scorer and Gallinari's shooting Turner could be effective even as a solid role player- because his skill set would mesh well with his teammates. And by the time we know know the team will have lots of financial flexibility- with Brand, Lou and Iguodala all off of the books.

IMO, the linchpin to that deal is Randolph. If he emerges as the atletic big and defensive presense they need (say a cross between AK47 and Sam) then that team can really be effective. If not, they are just another team that is soft in the middle.

I see Randolph as an inexpensive longshot in that deal. If he pans out, it's a home run, undoubtedly, but if he doesn't, eh. No big deal. The big thing with this deal is that you get the elite shooter who finishes possessions to play on the perimeter w/ Jrue and Turner. That's the big bet I think you're making. That those three guys will be an elite combination at three positions, all on rookie contracts for another couple years, and you've got cap flexibility to deal w/ the bigs (if Randolph doesn't pan out).

If Turner doesn't pan out, though, then you've got a great PG, an SG who can't shoot, and an SF who really can't create. I'm not crazy about that combo.

Turner would also really need to turn into a very good defender on the wing, because Danillo is going to have to be covered for.

I´d like this trade, but I don´t see New York considering to get on board unless Carmelo signs elsewhere. Because even if he is traded in feb, if there´s a chance he becomes a free agent, New York will wait for a chance, IMO.

Yep, great point. The Knicks can afford to be patient because he's going to NYC if he becomes a free agent anyway. I think that's why you haven't seen them seriously involved in the rumors. In fact, they may have even told him as much and that's why he doesn't really care about any of this stuff anyway.

The one catch is that 'Melo can only sign that monster extension prior to June 30th, then he's going to be signed under the new CBA, and who knows what the max will be. Also, there's no guarantee the Knicks will be able to afford him with their cap space, if the cap drops significantly. I think the latter is a risk the Knicks are willing to take. Not so sure Melo is OK w/ leaving $20M on the table, though.

I would love to tank and all, but Patterson isn't my idea of a good deal for Iguodala. I think Batum is about the best offer they'll get. If they really turned that down, it's not happening.

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Jason reply to Tray on Jan 6 at 18:14
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Have to do more than get rid of Iggy to tank. EB has to go, there is nobody that could come close to producing what he has on this roster.

really no reason at all to trade Iguodala for expirings, our draft pick will probably go from 15-17 to 12-14 which isn't worth it at all.

Probably have to get rid of Jrue as well if you want to get down to the bottom 5.

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Tray reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 20:17
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Rather, I'm all for rebuilding and clearing cap room. There's little in this draft anyway.

Hey Guys,

What are the odds of the Sixers landing Favors if they get involved in this Melo deal and let go of Iggy?

Not sure that is enough, but an athletic big with upside is pretty rare to come by. That list is pretty sad.

My ideal state is to dump Turner to the Wiz for Nick Young and grab Favors for Iggy. I'm only half kidding about the Nick Young thing. Maybe it's just against us, but he has a pure stroke. Imagine him in between Jrue and Iggy? And if we only would have kept Sam. He is barely even playing now.

Jrue
Nick Young
Iggy
Brand
Sam

That would be fun.

I have serious concerns about everyone who plays for the Wizards. I think they may all be screwed to the point where they'll never even be able to spell defense. I'd take a shot on McGee, because I think he showed w/ Team USA that he can dedicate himself on that end, but Nick Young...nah.

yeah, nick young isnt worth it imo. He has the talent to score 20 ppg but doesn't seem to care about giving defensive effort or improving his game. Last night he looked bored and seemed to always be the last player up the floor. I'd rather have turner, he at least seems like he wants to get better

Like the Sean Williams idea a lot. I remember vividly how he dominated the college ranks on the defensive end, and looks like he's back at it. Sign him for $1 mil and cut him if he disturbs locker room team chemistry in any way.

You don't even need to do that. Sign him to a 10-day contract, give him some minutes, see how does. Then sign him to another one. Then go from there. It's really a no-risk situation when you can use 10-day contracts.

Let's assume the Den/NYK/Phi triangle trade was in negotion, and say Denver doesn't want Iggy but would like Turner

Would you trade Turner+Thad for Gallinari? If no would knicks adding Anthony Randolph change anything?


I would trade Turner and Thad in a heart beat for gallinar even without Randoloph. I don't value Thad as much as most people on here though.

I would only like to see the Sixers do that deal if the Knicks gave us Fields as well, who is already a very good player. I'm not impressed with Randolph at all and would much rather have Turner than him.

There's no way the Wizards give up Javele McGee. The guy is averaging 9pts, 8 rebs, and 3 blocks a game. There's no one on our roster except Jrue, Turner and Holiday that the Wizards would trade him for.

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deepsixersuede on Jan 6 at 18:50
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Tk, I watched A.Randolph in the preseason and early in the year and he was doing his C.D.R. summer league immitation, shooting long jumpers on every catch and doing nothing else. I have more faith [insert cringe] in Spieghts getting it.

Redick is a BYC player so he is real difficult to trade for. A young long center that is getting minutes in Dirk's absence is Ajinca and they also have Mahinmi, who is long and french, how can you go wrong. But Mahinmi seems to produce in limited minutes.

Not for Iggy but compared to the centers in the draft they may be worth acquiring.

Is Evan Turner even good enough to make the Rookie vs Sophomore game? I was re-watching Evan Turner highlights the other day and I just don't see any potential in him. His game looks very slow, he doesn't have a crossover move, and he never scored a layup unless it was wide open. He always seemed to take jump shots whenever he got in the paint. What do you think his trade value is right now?

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jkay reply to Shawn on Jan 6 at 19:16
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Turner's game has always been that way, never been flashy to begin with.

as per trade value, if other GMs watch the same TV we do; its diddly-squat. if you're really serious about trading, you're better off holding onto him till he starts to show something.

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Jason reply to Shawn on Jan 6 at 19:18
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If there was a re-draft today I think he still goes top 5.

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Shawn reply to Jason on Jan 6 at 21:50
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That's not saying much. If the 2000 NBA draft was redone wouldn't Kwame Brown still be in the top 10? Also I would have Turner at

1. Wall
2. Favors
3. Cousins
4. Fields
5. Johnson
6. Turner

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johnrosz reply to Shawn on Jan 6 at 21:58
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the Landry Fields love is over the top, from everyone. A product of the new york media hype machine.

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Jason reply to Shawn on Jan 6 at 22:17
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Fields ahead of Turner is a joke.

I personally have Turner at 3, I don't understand how you can put wes Johnson ahead of him but that's just me. What has he done so far this year? He can shoot, but you can find shooters elsewhere.

Cousins is missing.

Cousins and Avery Bradley.

*cries at the failure of the 2010 NBA draft*

Cousins has been a disappointment in my eyes.

And Avery Bradley (who I like very much) hasn't exactly gotten much of a chance to prove that we've missed anything.

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Mike P reply to Derek Bodner on Jan 6 at 21:03
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I think Westphal and Evans are a horrible combo for Cousins.

Imagine if he was under Doug Collins thumb and they hired Moses to teach him everything he knew?

If Turner wasn't looking completely ineffective whenever he is on the court, I wouldn't even care about cousins. But he's been stinking it up so bad.

I hope when Igoudala comes back, if we don't trade him, he concentrates fully on being team USA iggy and not Point Forward tries to do too much Iggy.

Just let Jrue have the Keys. He is only 20 years old and the sky is the limit. He could be a potential franchise saver.

Have they checked the nearest Krispy Kreme?

With all of this Melo talk, I can't for the life of me understand why Denver would pass up New Jersey's offer: Favors, 2 firsts (if one is this year, it will be another Top 10 with that team being as crappy as it is), and a huge expiring contract in Troy Murphy. Who the heck is gonna trump that? Maybe it's because I think Favors is going to be a borderline all-star (and some don't) and maybe this year doesn't have a lot of talent (They said the same thing about Jrue's draft and he went 17) why they won't do it, but I think that's a great deal for Denver.

I kind of think Denver would pull the trigger, but Melo would need to agree to sign the extension otherwise NJ won't do it.

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deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Jan 6 at 22:22
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It seems as though the "bloom is off the rose" as far as B.Lopez is concerned so maybe Melo is having 2nd thoughts. How do they build a winner there with Melo making 20 m.p.y. and no #1 picks?

"Second Thoughts"? That would mean at some point Carmelo was willing to sign the extension. IF he was the deal probably would be done.

THe most recent BS is that Denver wants the fully healthy roster to play together (they haven't yet all year supposedly) and take one more shot at convincing Carmelo to go.

I believe Denver is sitting on Carmelo, geting closer to the deadline to hope to up the ante

I'm surprised we didn't hear from Tray when Cousins had 13 points on 10 possessions earlier. That was before he turned the ball over three times, committed three fouls and picked up a tech, though.

Check that, four turnovers.

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Jason reply to Brian on Jan 7 at 0:47
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Fun Fact, Demarcus Cousins leads the league in fouls.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jan 7 at 1:47
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I was walking my dog. But yeah, that's what, his third straight 20-point game, fourth out of five. All pretty efficient outings. Over the past five he's scored 109 points on 80 shots. Dalembert can't get any playing time anymore. As for the fouls, you know, Steph Curry, your "#1 target as far as a perimeter player goes," is fifth in the league in fouls. And he's fouling guards who can actually hit their free-throws. I'd bet that, not only are the players Cousins fouls not great foul-shooters, a very high percentage of his fouls aren't shooting fouls, but rather, loose ball fouls and the like. Which prevent him from playing more minutes (although he's played 31 minutes per over his last 5), but don't hurt the team too much. Tonight for instance, of his four fouls, none was a shooting foul, and only one led to foul shots - two by Nene, only one of which was made. In the previous game, not counting the foul he was told to take at the end of the game, one of his three fouls led to foul-shots - an and-one which Josh Smith converted. Game before that, two of his five fouls led to foul shots - Grant Hill made both and Gortat made one of two. By contrast, in Curry's last three games, in which he committed 11 fouls combined, nine of those fouls sent players to the line. 8 were shooting fouls, and he fouled players like Chris Paul, Jarrett Jack, Dwayne Wade, LeBron, and Ryan Anderson. Basically, Cousins commits lots of stupid fouls that only hurt the team by getting them closer to the penalty and forcing them to play Dalembert a few more minutes; Curry constantly puts people on the line because he can't guard anyone.

Oh man, I didn't realize that Cousins only committed good fouls that didn't hurt his team. Someone should've explained to me how fouling is actually a good thing. Do his turnovers cure cancer too?

Young players who are foul and turnover prone tend to improve more as they get more experienced and usually have a far higher ceiling. The problem with Cousins is his attitude and you can't bank on him to improve in any aspect of his game unless he matures first. And if he mature and improve his work ethic, he is worthless. He is not really that good right now (he is not horrible either), just look at the Kings record to see how much he has impacted the team from the C position...

Here my trade compliments of the nba trade machine

Sixers get jr smith Den
anthony randolf Ny
eddy curry NY (expiring contract)

Knicks camelo Den

Nuggets iggy
Kapono
Antony mason Ny

Since we're doing the trade Iguodala exercise, he's another angle:

Iguodala to Minnesota

Webster, Pekovic and a #1 to Philly.

Webster gives you a shooter at the 3 and Pekovic has some similarities to Gortat and would give you another option at the 5 going forward. Both expire with Lou and Brand. This also would free up some money to re-sign Thad if that's the direction the want to go.

It is not possible to fit the team and show top scores from day one. Coaches tend to forget that and stressing out players doesn't help.

I couldn't stand somebody shouting at me even if the team's loss was my fault. I don't find yelling motivating.

I have often wondered why all coaches shout like crazy. I don't believe that is stimulating at all.


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