DFDepressed FanDepressed Fan

All  

Sixers

, all the time

Six Weeks

user-pic
deepsixersuede on Jan 13 at 8:02
+/-

I wonder if L.Will.s role as the late game scorer diminishes as Evan gets comfortable and Thorn will put him on the market. Shouldn't a defensive minded backup p.g. that runs the offense be more our coach's "cup of tea" than the current situation if Turner becomes our starting s.g. ? As currently constructed our bench would consist of Meeks,Thad, Nucioni and Spieghts when this happens and that is plenty of offense.

My hope is Lou and an expiring to an offensive minded team for a Gortat type big. Does Pheonix do Hawes/Lou and a 2nd rounder for Gortat and filler? Would you sweeten it with a top 15 protected #1 to get a defensive center? And would that trade be addition by subtraction?

Have a feeling Iguodala may be moved if Sixers/Thorn can get decent value in return. Think Iguodala wouldn't mind going, either.

user-pic
Scott reply to Tom Moore on Jan 13 at 10:26
+/-

Tom, how would you define "decent value?"

Tom

I realize you are closer to the sixers, than the heads at the various networks and web sites, but they all indicate that calls to the sixers about Iguodala are rebuffed as the sixers are focused on adding for a playoff run.

What makes you think that the sixers would trade Iguodala and yeah, what do you think is good value.

PS - The sixers will do nothing at the deadline significant on the court - they it may help their current LT situation for the 11/12 season (under the current CBA)

Story: More aggressive Turner responds to benching:

http://ow.ly/3DaoS

I think Thorn is probably stuck. The big escalating deals that went to Brand and Iguodala in the Summer of '08 were equivalent to buying an expensive house at the peak of the housing market (also in '08.) In both cases people assumed that prices would continue to go up... and then you became "upside down." Is it any surprise Stefanski's former career was in the mortgage business?

Your assets still had value, but you owed more to them then they were worth in the new market. And with the cap headed down and a new, dramatically more restrictive CBA looming you are stuck either making a "short sale" and taking a relative loss in value in a trade, or just sitting on your assets until the mortgage is paid off.

The types of moves available for big tick not superstars are more in line with the Arenas/VC/Hedo/Lewis deal- where teams played musical chairs with their overpriced assets. And I don't see Philly wanting to make that type of deal where they take back another big ticket vet like a Magette or Baron Davis type.

I also don't see the Sixers as a "buyer" whop takes on long term deals in exchange for their expiring contracts. Buyers tend to be top 10 teams and have aggressive ownership (think the Mavs.) The Sixers are more in the market for picks and cap flexibility.

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 13 at 10:53
+/-

I also believe Thorn tried to get Melo (based on several reports using Philly as the example of a team Melo specifically refused to put on his "list.")

In NJ Thorn aggressively moved to bring in superstars (Kidd and VC.) I am a big fan of this approach (although not with Melo) but right now with how players "take their services" where they chose I think it will be much harder for Thorn to make that type of impact move. And unfortunately the only other way to get a star is by luck/ineptitude of losing (see Thorn's last 2 years as GM.) And that would mean dismantling the current team. Although its hard to imagine this team getting a top 5 pick even if they gave away Iguodala.

I'd love to see Thorn make a move(s) that would benefit the team both in the long-term and the short-term. For instance, a deal that moves Igoudala to IND for Foster, Ford (expirings) and gets us Paul George would be something I'd be in favor of. If we could get a 1st round pick too, that would be even better. I want some combination of expiring deals, young players, and picks going into the off-season. I also would love to find a way to move Lou Williams somewhere.

I don't really understand the George love. He really looks like he doesn't have IT in him to me.

You can't figure out if George has 'it' any more than you can Evan Turner so far in this season

It's a trade the Pacers wouldn't make anyway

That is my fully subjective opinion. Believe it or not i probably think higher of Turner now than when we drafted him. I think he will be a very good player, he just needs some seasoning and he needs to be put in the right position. His attitude on and off the court has been a positive to me. But hey maybe i'm clueless since a lot of the "experts" think he is a bust or close to it.

I was in the Favors camp btw...

I believe the 'best get' for Iguodala is shorter salaries and a player with some upside - George has upside.

Iguodala's trade value is depressed partially because a lack of fan appreciation. They don't come out to see him play so he's obviously not a draw even though he's quite good, if he doesn't average 20 PPG some people think he's not a good player.

The sixers will NOT get a good deal when they trade Iguodala - it's a matter of how bad the deal is going to be

I've been really disappointed with the effort over the last few days. I'm generally patient and truly value Iguodala. But i really think it may be time to move him. We've talked in excruciating detail about how he fits the team how he can play with others, whether his body language is good for the team, and so on and so on.

The thing is we may have gotten to a point where everybody (the organization the players) simply need some kind of a change, a fresh start if you want to call it that way. That doesn't mean we should have a fire sale and go fully young, just that we need some fresh blood and change. The Sixers may be a young team, but the core has been together for a long time now. Iguodala, Lou Will, Young and even Brand have been together long enough. The changes started this summer with the Dalambert and Green trades and i sort of have the feeling that we need to complete the circle. Both Iguodala and Lou Williams should probably go. That doesn't mean they are not good enough or that they cannot be a part of a championship team, it simply means the team needs a change and they appear to me to be the odd men out. I just hope Thorn can get valueable long term pieces (or very high draft picks) in return not just cap space and useless picks.

For an example of what change can do to a team, just look at the Orlando Magic. We all bashed the trade because it didn't really add enough to the team in terms of talent, but those trades completely rejuvenated the whole team. Even this early i admit i was wrong about the trades..

When you refer to the effort of the past few days - are you referring to the team or Iguodala and somehow holding Iguodala responsible for that effort?

No i am not referring to Iguodala at all. The team in general has been disappointing and guys look to me like they need something to happen. And at this time of the year something means a trade. Moreover, Iguodala is rumored to be going somewhere else for a long time now. Even though noone will admit it, i think the situation weighs down on the whole team not just Iguodala. The injury further complicated things. Now i am the first to say that i don't want to trade Iguodala for nothing. But i think as we get closer to the deadline the offers will get better. Thorn is an old fox, he understands how this league breathes and the reason why he hasn't pulled the trigger is probably because it simply wasn't the right time, but as we approach the deadline things simply need to start happening.

Actually - if you bother reading the rumors - for a few weeks (ever since the sixers started playing better) all reports have been that Iguodala is going nowhere - that the sixers are not moving him - the rumors you refer to are weeks old.

As for your assertion that a trade will just change the mood - that's just advocating to do something for the sake of doing ssomething - which is a foolish premise. Make a move to make the team better - not to somehow jumpstart the players already here

They are just trying to maximize his value, that's why they said he is not going anywhere. It's far better than how we handled the Iverson trade.

And i don't think we need to make a trade for the sake of doing something if we don't get appropriate value in return.

Ah I see

Those reports that indicate other teams are being rebuffed without even making an offer for Iguodala - that's just posturing is it.

I love how when rumors AGREE with what you want - they're factual - but when they don't they're something else - they're either all bullshit or not bullshit - they can't be both folks.

Iguodala is not what's wrong with the sixers

I wish people would stop saying the sixers would be better if they traded him - they wouldn't be - it's a necessity because he's the only asset they really have worth trading. No one wants Lou, No one wants Thad, aside from Jrue and Turner, Iguodala is the only piece that has value folks, and that's why he needs to be traded, but the sixers will be worse when it happens.

Wow i do not blame Iguodala at all for anything. He is who he is and he is a very good player. The whole team needs to have a firmly set direction. That won't happen until trade talks about Iguodala are straightened out.
I also fully disagree that Lou and Thad hold no value. Even Speights and Hawes have some value (although not a lot).

Two things need to happen IMO:

- straightened long term direction
- better balanced roster

But to do those two things you need to make a change first. It doesn't have to be Iguodala as i mentioned above. But he makes the most sense at this point.

user-pic
tk76 reply to Xsago on Jan 13 at 11:22
+/-

I'm not against moving Iguodala. But I don't believe the team will get much in return.

1. I think the new CBA scares many teams away from taking on a big contract unless it will directly increase attendance (not Iguodala.)

2. The teams that ignore the tax like the Mavs don't have many assets. You basically would be giving him away for cap relief. And that cap relief won't turn into anything other than savings for Comcast... Maybe the Knicks- but Galinari/Douglass does not seem like a great return.

3. If you try to get back reasonable "value" then that would involve taking back a similarly sized contract. And I don't know who that would be (Kaman?) and doubt the Sixers want to make a move where they take back long term salary.

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 13 at 11:24
+/-

And if this is the reality of the Iguodala market... then I don't want to trade him right now.

If you can't get a promising big on a rookie scale contract then you probably should not move him.

Do you think with the new CBA his value will change - what happens if it gets worse?

The NBA is going to win - the players are not unified, nor do they save money much - they are probably the weakest players union out there and Stern is going to destroy them - which means that the GM's should already have an idea what hte new deal really will be. So what if Iguodalas contract has less value?

Course that means the other GM's know as well.

It's a bad time for Iguodala :)

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 11:44
+/-

Yeah, the new deal (and fear of the new deal) drives his value down.

If you are living in a nice house that is not worth what you paid for it...

Do you sell it for a loss and move into a crappier house- or just stay in your house until the mortgage is paid off? Unless you can't make the payments, you typically chose to stay in the nice house.

That's the current bind with both Iguodala and Brand. Both are nice houses but the team is in a crappy neighborhood. But if they sell low they won't exactly be helping themselves.

They are stuck for the next 2 year. And then they will really be able to make drastic changes once Iguodala and Brand are to close to coming off the books.

Until then its rearranging deck chairs and listening to the band play... and trying to thing very long term.

Or you sell the house, take the short term loss find a 'temporary living arrangement' that costs loss (in a down economy) and position yourself to be more ready for when the economy turns around.

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 13:20
+/-

The problem with that reasoning is it depends on being able to take advantage of the "savings" of dumping Iguodala (since I don't think Brand is tradeable this year.)

And beyond saving Comcast some cash, I don't see how trimming 14M from next years cap will translate into much beyond maybe picking up some late 1sts in exchange for taking on a short term bad contract... even even that.

While in 2 years the team is already in position to clear a windfall of salary as Lou and brand come off the books (and Iguodala is a valuable expiring.) And Jrue/Turner/Young and whomever else should be in their prime.

Unless you think Iguodala is actually harming other players development, I don't see why you have to move him. I just don't see much in return- unless suddenly teams start to offer high picks or young bigs with talent- which I don't see happening.

I generally agree about this reasoning.

My question is the following: If you have a chance to trade Iguodala for a player of similar value, who has a similar contract, but plays a different position would you do it?

I believe we are too wing heavy with our best wings not really pure SGs or SFs. That has been a major problem for the team and needs to be fixed.

The sixers may be 'wing heavy' in your opinion until you start looking at the quality of those wings. The sixers do not have any wings worthy of starting in the NBA on a playoff competetive team aside from Iguodala.

So you trade Iguodala for a similar contract - let's say a 2 guard (you woudln't get it because yo don't trade tall for small) in the NBA - you've created a hole at the starting SF space where your current BEST option is Nocioni.

WHat's the point. You plug one hole and create another

they have too much 6th man caliber of wings. That's the whole problem. they need to figure out a way to trade 2-3 of the for one that is actually starter worthy or something like that...

Lou Williams MAYBE is a sixth man - if you want your sixth man ot be a ball hog who scores and does nothing else.

Meeks and Nocioni aren't sixth men

Lou Will, Turner (at the moment) and Thad are 6th man (Thad may even be a starter if he is surrounded with the appropriate personnel). Meeks, Nocioni are 7th -8th man. That's 5 players when only 2-3 are required at those positions.

You like your starters to be piss poor rebounders and defenders for their position?

Thad is not a good defender or rebounder. That doesn't mean he is terrible. Defense can be taught and the lack of rebounding won't be that big of a problem if you have a capable center.

Yes - bad rebounding is a problem at any position - and if you can't defend or rebound you shouldn't start.

Thad hasn't learned anything in his years in the league - why do you think he suddenly will? It's like expecting sam to get better at anything

Because i believe defense i closely related to coaching. Collins is probably the first real defensive coach Thad has had in the NBA. And i think he has improved defensively this year. He is even a better rebounder this year than he has ever been. And he is just 22 years old. Why do you think he cannot learn more? Guys learn even at 27 let alone 22...

I believe defense is closely related to effort and basketball IQ

Thad seems clueleess and effortless - defense is a fundamental thing you learn growing up (or shoudl) and thad has never demonstrated any understanding of even the most basic defensive fundamentals.

I think he can not learn more because I think his basketball iQ is low - his athleticism is high

Dalambert was a low BB IQ player too, yet he is considered here one of the best defensive players at his position. I agree that BB IQ plays a big role in defense and that Thad appears to be a low Bb IQ guy. That however doesn't mean that he can't become an average defender. I've never gotten the feeling that he doesn't bring enough effort. The ffort is there, the athleticism is there, and finally he started getting some coaching. I believe he can become an average defensive player. And yes if he is average defensively his offense makes him a starter...

user-pic
raro reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 14:28
+/-

effortless? That's awfully harsh.

If I remember correctly, you're the one always giving people crap about making judgements re: player's effort. What gives you the right?

You remember incorrectly - but it's ok.

I give people crap about trying to determine a players psyche or emotional state from thelook on their face. I give people crap when they say a player 'doesn't care' - If you can't see the difference, I'm sorry

user-pic
raro reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 15:47
+/-

What's the difference between a player's effort level and their psyche or emotional state?

It's an interesting question that goes beyond the boundaries of basketball. Something worth thinking about :)

Unless you think Iguodala is actually harming other players development, I don't see why you have to move him.

Is Iguodala harming the sixers draft positioning in terms of having a better chance at the better players in any given draft regardless of the quality of that draft?

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 14:13
+/-

I don't really think so. They played well enough without him to think that his presence is probably the difference of a #10 and a #15 pick. It would be a bigger deal if we were talking about dropping out of the top 5 (like when AI was traded and Andre Miller brought in and they mafde a 18W-7L run to rise to the #12 pick.)

user-pic
Tom Moore on Jan 13 at 13:24
+/-

Video: Lou Williams on adjusting to Iguodala's return and the importance of closing out games:

http://ow.ly/3DlNA

I also think the team is too deep and we need a more players for less type of trade. We need to become more top heavy...

This should've been a response to an upper post.

What makes you think this team is deep...don't ook at position, look at quality.

They currently only have 3 players who should start on a contending team (Holiday, Brand, Iguodala)

They have no defensive big men with any presence
They have a bunch of primarily scorers who do little else and don't even do that great or consistently.

The sixers aren't deep - or if they are they are deep in one dimensional players as I see it

That's the whole point. They have a lot of 6th-7th-8th man type of players. Much more than a regular team...

As I said up top - I think you over rate many of the sixers players if you call them sixth men.

That's 'shallow depth' to me - it's the kiddie pool - on a team lacking starters at at least 2 positions and key contributors off the bench that you require to win - like an extra six fouls against big men that aren't totally useless defensively.

For a couple years i've been referring to this roster as the island of misfit toys - and it still is, there is no quick fix, there is no one move...

user-pic
Tom Moore on Jan 13 at 13:57
+/-

Video: Collins on defending the pick-and-roll, Hawes' struggles:

http://ow.ly/3Dneq

user-pic
Rich reply to Tom Moore on Jan 13 at 16:58
+/-

Good to see they made a concerted effort to shore up the pick and roll. It really is a detriment to the team that they aren't great running it or defending it.

If Speights can play his way into the line-up, I wouldn't mind seeing Jason Maxiell as the first big off the bench. He's an effective offensive rebounder and at least not a liability defensively. His current deal isn't terrible per the current market though It doesn't speak well of him that he cannot outplay Chris Wilcox.

Speights is not a starting 5 in this league. He doesn't defend anywhere close to well enough and seems to think that trying to draw charges means he's defending.

Is it too much to expect his IQ to rise higher than that of a brick?

Speights is not a starting 5 in this league. He doesn't defend anywhere close to well enough and seems to think that trying to draw charges means he's defending.

Spencer Hawes is not a starting 5 in this league
Jodie Meeks is not a starting 2 in this league
Andres Nocioni isn't a starting player in this league
Neither is Jason Kapono

They've all started for the sixers this year.

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 15:35
+/-

Willie Green started 211 games for the Sixers.

Lou Williams started games for the sixers

Arguing against a player being a starter on the sixers roster is disingenuous in my opinion as the sixers often start players who aren't starters (and many other teams do as well)

Tom's argument against Speights (in my opinion) holds no water because it's not about whether speights is a starter in the NBA, it's about if he's a starter on this roster, and anyone who would argue that Hawes is better than Speights is crazy

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 15:42
+/-

Starting Speights could put a "charge" into their offense. And likely make their defense more offensive. He might not bowl you over, but he'll at least act like he was bowled over.

And that's why you went to medical school and not comedy school ;)

If the Sixers could make a "Meeks" move where they swap and expiring and next year's #2 for a #2 pick from last year who is riding someone's bench... who would you go after?

Alabi, Whiteside, Jordan... or do you just try out some D-Leagers with some defensive promise?

Who is Jordan?

You can find useful guys in the second round or in the d-league. But they are very very rarely big men. Whiteside, Alabi and Jordan hasn't shown anything that warrants any consideration thus far. However if you can get them for this years second round pick (which i seriously doubt) that's a no risk/high reward move in my book. From the other players i'm not sure if there is anyone we can actually target... I may be wrong though, i haven't scouted those players closely enough.

If you followed me during the draft, you know I'm not a huge fan of Whiteside (at least on the mental aspect of his game), but he's got extreme physical tools. He's worth the gamble of a second round pick.

Compare the mental aspect of his game to Sam's early in his career? How does Whiteside look?

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 16:48
+/-

Did Sam wear flip flops to pre-draft camp?

user-pic
johnrosz reply to tk76 on Jan 13 at 17:10
+/-

i still don't get why that's a big deal. he still measured out well.

That whole thing about "not being impressed" with someone's interview is stupid too in my opinion. A lot of 19 and 20 year olds being judged and questioned by a group of scouts will look uncomfortable.

user-pic
tk76 reply to johnrosz on Jan 13 at 17:15
+/-

Is it asking to much for a guy to show up for a basketball workout in sneakers?

If someone showed up to a business interview in a Hawaiian shirt it may suggest a certain lack of understanding of his chosen profession. And wearing flip flops to a key professional combine equally suggests someone out of touch with what being a professional athlete will entail.

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 13 at 17:22
+/-

Maybe I'm being too judgmental? I'm not really that concerned about how someone acts or dresses off the court. But if you are serious about basketball then you don't show up to a court in flip flops- and I base this on personal experience in pick up games where some clown shows up in flip flops :)

I don't think you're concerned but I'm pretty old and I'm guessing you're closer in age to me (38) than whiteside.

Like I said, it demonstrates to me a lack of understanding of the seriousness of what you're doing. You are trying to get a job in a market that has AT MOST 450 jobs per year (some teams carry less than the 15 mx of course), don't you wanna make the best first impression, especially a gu like whiteside who was seen more as project than prospect.

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 17:52
+/-

It also suggests the people around him are dolts, for lack of a better word.

i still don't get why that's a big deal. he still measured out well.

He's showing up to audition for a job in the NBA and he shows up in flip flops.

Your attitude is why there are so many flops in the NBA draft because people ignore it and just dismiss them cause they're kids, and this is part of the reason stern will push for a second year - the longer they are in school the more it becomes apparent who should and shouldn't be drafted.

If I am auditioning for a job and they want me to come in for an hour to run some computer evaluations - you think I could dress in cut offs and a tshirt and not make a bad impression?

user-pic
Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 18:15
+/-

Wearing Flip flops to a basketball measurement and cut offs to run computer evaluations are a little different you have to admit.

I don't completely understand what happened though, were they were just measuring him at the camp? Wouldn't they ask him to take his shoes off to measure his height anyway? Why do sneakers make a huge deal, was he supposed to do some running/jumping?

user-pic
tk76 reply to Rich on Jan 13 at 18:36
+/-

It was not just measurements . It was also the vertical,. agility drills, bench etc. It was work-out day. Someone should have told him to wear sneakers- it may not have been 100% his fault, but it does not suggest a lot of common sense or that he is much of a self starter.

Do you think Turner did not know they were going to do measured drills that day?

It's sort of like showing up for a drivers test and figuring you were only going to have your picture taken and don't need to bring your glasses.

user-pic
Rich reply to tk76 on Jan 13 at 19:04
+/-

Oh alright there was actual physical stuff to do. That changes my thoughts completely. Who the hell is advising him?

user-pic
johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 13 at 20:33
+/-

I take issue more with the interview portion than anything. A bunch of scouts looking for any reason to scrutinize a kid for the way he chooses to answer a question. They have weeks to prepare their questions, and the kid is judged on how he responds on the spot...

If only the kids had weeks to prepare and years of previously asked questions to know what sort of questions were asked.

Oh wait.

user-pic
Tom Moore on Jan 13 at 18:17
+/-

If Turner can score 10-plus points Friday, it'll mark the first time he's done it in three straight games. He's had consecutive double-figure games four times.

A little off topic but I would really like to see Jrue get bigger, stronger and mire atheletic/explosive... He's 6'4 and with those physical tools and his developing game he would be very very good. Do you guys think his physique will change much? He is only 20..


Expand/Contract all comments

Leave a comment


back-to-story.gif