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Not A Good Win

bebopdeluxe on Jan 15 at 0:29

While I understand why they are all doing it, there still is far too much talking about the playoffs for my liking. For guys like EB and 'Dre, decisions about PT and rotations that are secondary to WINNING GAMES will not go down well with them...which is why we are still seeing WAY too much Lou. BTW, there was one time late when Lou was bringing the ball into the front-court...Brand was WIDE OPEN on the wing, and Lou ignored him...drove baseline and got up a crap shot.

EB should have slugged him.

Court_visioN reply to bebopdeluxe on Jan 15 at 14:33

There was another instance when Jrue made a great cut to the basket in crunch time and Lou had a great angle to hit him with the pass - EB saw it, i saw it, the crowd saw it, but lou couldn't see it. This was either on the possession where he put up that crap 3 that happened to go in or the next possession where his 23-foot shot went 6 feet.

Game story: Sixers finally win a close one:


Nice to win a close game for a change. Sweet Lou bringing it home for us playing 1 on 9. But I'm still upset because Hawes is garbage and his terrible defense is dragging the rest of the team down. The Bucks are clueless on offense, Bogut could get anything he wanted. Collins stop trying to justify that stupid trade and banish him already. Get a defensive center who can play and this team will be good again. You know who!

A big part of the soft defense you pointed out Brian was Brand. He was terrible on that end, really lazy, and really slow. The only way that EB is a good defensive player is if he's active and uses his smarts to be in good position. You can't do that when you are slow. EB should have also realized that Gooden was feeling it from mid-range, and that he should crowd him. That's mystifying from him because Gooden should have been played the way everyone plays Brand: crowd him, and make him shoot over a hand.

I also thought Speights played very well. He was active on defense and finishing plays on offense. He even made a great hustle in chasing down a board and sending a nice pass to Thad. Yet Hawes is the center down the stretch? I don't get that at all. I don't get Collins playing Brand 39 minutes when Speights was playing well. EB should be playing much closer to 30 minutes, even when he's shooting it really well.

Nocioni taking time away from Turner is a disgrace. I just don't get that at all, especially when Nocioni's hurt, literally adding insult to injury. Turner should have been playing instead of Lou down the stretch. The Bucks went to a huge lineup with Salmons at the 2, and Jrue was forced to guard Salmons posting him up. Jrue did an alright job, but the point is he shouldn't have to do that. Collins is trying to win the game with offense when he plays Lou. I thought we were done with that crap. Of course when he put Turner in, Salmons turned into a jump shooter and we weren't forced to double/play scramble defense.

How bad was that Lou fake pump fake at the end? Those plays have no second options if they don't go right. You are always going to end up with a Lou shot/turnover, and that's not his fault. Collins needs to realize that "Team Lou" is not going to get anyone else the ball. The she he made was terrible as well.

All in all, I'm really disappointed with the way Collins has handled this team since the Chicago win.

jkay reply to Rich on Jan 15 at 3:36

I second that.

Doug Collins is officially a problem. After Tuesday's meltdown, not only does Lou get to play ridiculous minutes, Collins put the ball in his hands. Robbing Jrue of his role, Holiday seemed to be running off screens all night as a 2 guard.
Turner played 10 measly minutes, got pulled for Iguodala early because DC was not happy with his defense, when Lou was doing his AI impression all night.
Speights gets rewarded for his recent play with more bench time.
Coming off injury, Iguodala plays 37 min???

this team played no stretch of good defense at all.

He's rewarding the wrong kind of play.

hmm, Jim Jackson mentioned something potentially hilarious during the Flyer game: a "battle of the blonds" between Mirakovits and some chick named Rhea Hughes from WIP on Sunday night at 11pm...does anyone want to live-blog that and/or try to predict how awful it will be??

I wouldn't fight Mirakovits.

I assume Brian mentioned it in the game thread, but Cousins had another bad game. 7-20 shooting. He did finish with 16, 10 and a few blocks though.

And a propos of nothing, I was really impressed by Webber's commentary on the Carmelo situation last night (starting at 1:18):


You conveniently failed to mention the 4 turnovers and 5 fouls.

Cousins had probably one of the most amazing nights I've ever seen. In only 23 minutes of work, he used 25 possessions to score 16 points and still found a way to squeeze in 5 personal fouls.

The good news for the Kings is that Dalembert got 30 minutes off the bench to block 6 shots and undoubtedly force Amare into an inefficient scoring night.

stevegeez on Jan 15 at 7:52

While Cuz was def ineffcient las nite if u look at his past 2 or 3 weeks u can see that he is starting to understand how to score right way, make good passes out of the double, and stay out of foul troubl somewhat. im still not on the turner is a bust train but stand by my pre draft outlook that had we got cuz we be set at the 1 and 5 for a decade....the kid is only 20 and is havn hs way with most bigs already...he is now and wll always be more productve than turner...no knock against ET tho

i understand your hate for hawes, but i'm kind of surprised you're siding with turner on this one. turner has an awful demeanor 75% of the time. he's constantly waving his arms calling for the ball while guys like EB are going to work in the post. whenever collins barks at him from the sideline, he's the only guy to always have something to shout back. he has a piss poor attitude for a rookie who needs to learn to stfu and become a good teammate. i didn't see the exchange last night but i'm confident turner bears most of the responsibility.

tk76 reply to Mike on Jan 15 at 10:16

No right or wrong. When two teammates fight on the floor the team loses.

Old School Sixer Fan reply to Mike on Jan 15 at 10:26

Turner did not play well last night, but Hawes was just as bad. I was astounded by how much time Lou got and how he was permitted to just dribble around. There was no ball movement with Lou in the game. They started with assists on almost every basket - until Lou came in.

The other obvious point was that Speights played very well in the first half and barely got on the court in the second half. That wasn't right.

They also went with Speights/Thad in the front-court for all of Speights' minutes. And I'd rather see Speights with Brand to get better rebounding/defense.

I'm hoping winning "ugly" like this can actually help the team.

Sometimes streaks of quality play are started with ugly wins. sort of like how a slumping shooter or hitter can break out after a lucky bounce. And I think players are more responsive to constructive criticism after surviving a close win then after a bad loss.

After so many close losses I can see players getting tight and making mistakes down the stretch. The fact that this happened and yet they won will help them play more loose the next game. Although that does not excuse the poor play and questionable strategy.

As for Lou- I think Collins will have to keep him a bit longer as the "closer" if only because once you give a guy a shot at something you have to see it out. That said, it reminds me of Brad Lidge.

Old School Sixer Fan reply to tk76 on Jan 15 at 10:35

Lou reminds me more of Wild Thing than Brad Lidge

I'd like to call Collins out on the Speights thing too. Yes, he fell for a pump fake from Earl Boykins, yes no one falls for lou's pump fakes, but I don't really see how he can argue that having Hawes on the court is that much better than having Speights on the court.

Apropos of the discussion we were having yesterday - from ESPN.com

The league office has confirmed to ESPN.com that the Denver Nuggets do have the license to grant New Jersey Nets officials a face-to-face meeting with Carmelo Anthony before a trade is consummated.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 15 at 11:48

Good info.

Bigger prima-dona, Lebron on Melo-Drama.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 15 at 11:49

Amusing typo- meant "or"

Lebron still wins because of various things he did when he went into free agency.

According to conflicting reports there isn't even a framework in place and that no one has officially gone to Carmelo and said 'we have this deal in place, will you sign the extension'. To me, the reason Lebron is such an utter tool is what happened once his free agency started, the calculation, the idiocy, the lying that it seems he told every team but MIami that they had a chance, the decision, his actions since, even his most recent 'twitter' comment regarding karma (though the next day he sprained his ankle as his team lost to the clips - so how's that for karma)

Lebron is still MUCH worse to me than Carmelo

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 15 at 12:15

I can sort of understand Melo saying "I won't agree to sign an extension with NJ unless they have enough talent."

It's his prerogative to sign and extension or not- and if a team is going to stink then he should not havbe to agree to say there. And I can see how NJ acquiring more talent could push him to accepting an extension.

That said, he does seem like a punk who has manipulated things to get him to NY without wanting to seem like he is forcing things.

Then he should say yes or no - my understanding from all that is available is that he hasn't made it clear WHAT he will do either way.

And (look at me replying to myself like tk76) if he was worried about talent he'd say sure I'll accept a trade to Dallas or the Clippers - cause they're both WAY more talented than either the knicks or the nets.

I don't believe for a minute this is about going to the best team possible - because so many western teams are better options and could possibly offer better talent (in an easier 2 team trade) than the garbage the knicks are ponying up or the mass of players in the nets/pistons thing.

QUantity does not equal Quality.

This is about Carmelo (or his wife) thinking they can do better for their careers in new york - not winning titles

Somebody posted the Hawes/Turner/Iguodala fricas on YouTube:


I missed it during the game, but this does seem to be out of line. Call it tough love for a rook if you want, but that kind of action from the team's leader just doesn't look good.

mgfields reply to dwhite on Jan 15 at 12:27

I don't understand what Turner did wrong there except he should have went baseline instead of toward the middle. He could have shot the three with the guy closing on him, but do they really want Evan shooting threes? Being generous, an Evan 3 has a 30% chance of going in.

We don't know the whole story - and none of the sixers writers seem interested in asking about it - so who knows

To mg

Honestly - when Turner got the ball - I felt he was wide open and should have taken the shot, he hesitated and then was guarded and when he tried to make his move the ball got poked out of bounds.

Should he have shot the ball? Probably - Does Spencer Hawes have any position in the NBA to be lecturing anyone on anything? Nope

dwhite reply to GoSixers on Jan 15 at 12:31

Amen, sir.

mgfields reply to GoSixers on Jan 15 at 12:51

Agree about Hawes.

I would still rather Evan take it toward the hoop (baseline)for a jumper than try to shoot that three.

The youtube was the first time I'd actually seen the play. When I heard about it, I figured Evan most have done something terrible (like his back to back turnovers in the first half). I don't understand why he got yelled at by Hawes, elbowed by Iggy, and pulled by Collins over that play.

Because Collins saw it as a teaching moment - so he pulled Turner instead of the lousy center.

Just like when he benched Speights the rest of the game because he fell for Boykins pump fake.

Court_visioN reply to mgfields on Jan 15 at 14:46

well we don't know what Turner said on the play. We knows Hawes was berating him for not shooting the ball, that's obvious (yes, I agree Hawes has no right to be telling anybody what to do) but if Turner responded with "yo momma so fat..." then yeah I can see why Iguodala would give him an elbow and tell him to shut up and play or something.

As for Iguodala passing it to Hawes over Turner - what's Hawes percentage on long jumpers vs. Turner 3's? Could have just been the better person to give to on the wing on a drive and kick.

bebopdeluxe reply to GoSixers on Jan 15 at 14:43

It didn't look like a lecture to me...it looked like a teammate encouraging Turner to shoot an open shot.

Unless there was a LOT more to what Hawes did/said than that, if Turner got his nose out of joint over that, then I am GLAD that Iggy did that...and I understand better why Turner got yanked from the game.

eddies' heady's reply to dwhite on Jan 15 at 12:49

After seeing this sequence again, does it say anything that Dre would choose to pass it back to Spencer 21 feet out instead of Turner wide open from 23 feet out in the corner? Seems kind of odd as you would think he would have given it to Turner as open as he was and with Hawes being the other choice being that far out.

I'm in total agreement that Hawes has no place to "school" someone on this team, but I think he was just encouraging Evan to pull the trigger by making the shoot-it motion and as someone mentioned earlier Evan just has a bad case of the talk-backs. And because of that, I really don't have a problem with Dre shoving him in a squash-that-shit-shut-the-fuck-up-yapping-your-trap kind of way.

We all see things differently, just my two cents.

i agree with eddies headys for maybe the first time ever. this was about the immaturity turner constantly shows in talking back to everyone all the time. iguodala let him know they are sick of it.

I disagree with him (unsurprisingly) as Hawes has not a leg to stand on - but eddy hate Turner

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Jan 15 at 15:58

Saying this as civil as I can, you are constantly in other's hearts and minds quite often. You seem to loosely throw around accusations at others of "hating" players on their favorite team. As if you know their inner feelings or something. You harp on and on about fans attempting to decipher player's thoughts and body language, yet you conveniently find it OK for you to do the exact same thing to fellow fans just from gleaning what you want from comments submitted on a blog.

You don't have to like a particular player's game or skills, or the player's fit within your fav team, but that shouldn't be construed as "hate" of those particular players. You can have critical, negative observations of players; that doesn't equal hate - unless you're pining for one of the guys to have a season ending injury, not that you would suggest such a thing though.

jkay reply to dwhite on Jan 15 at 14:57

i agree.
what the hell was Iguodala thinking acting like a punk?
that situation calls for getting in Turner's face and saying 'take the damn shot', at best.
elbowing him is such a punk move, like he was irritated by what Turner did.
no semblance of leadership.
sometimes I wonder if the Iggy haters are right about his personality.

eddies' heady's on Jan 15 at 12:39

I wanted to touch on your first bullet point as that seems to be a very pressing, yet mysteriously interesting, situation. Not placing blame on anyone here, but Dre's return seems to have stunted that newfound (maybe it was fool's gold too) flow. The questions you posed are all valid and all of them probably do factor in on different levels. But ultimately this would seem to fall on Doug, to me.

The team was resembling a well-oiled machine on offense when Dre was out with Jrue being the catalyst. For whatever reason, Jrue now seems to be minimized the last couple games; suppressed to an extent. What this has to do with Dre returning, I don't know. What it has to do with Lou being asked to be the initiator and finisher/closer on nearly every possession he's in, I don't know . Not even sure these have any bearings on the situation because, again, you can't fault Lou or Dre for doing what's asked of them which results in this resting right in the middle of Doug's lap. You were understating in saying it's a serious question.

Couple random thoughts:
What happened to the team that showed up to pound the Bulls into submission the other Friday night? Jrue sure seemed to be doing a masterful job of being the maestro and lead-dog around that timeframe and particularly in that game.

I can only quietly hope/wish that this Lou overkill is the showcase of a precursor to a trade. They say every rose has it's "Thorn", right?

Any chance we are showcasing LouWill so we can trade him? I'm hoping we are.

dwhite reply to Scott on Jan 15 at 14:10

A nice thought, but I really doubt it. I think the front office and Collins still view Lou as a valuable part of the team. There's some truth to that - his chucking is somewhat redeemed by his efficiency in getting to the line (best FTA rate in the NBA among bench players). I myself am not as hard on Williams as most seem to be at this point, though it's admittedly very frustrating to see him dominate the ball so much in late game situations, lose his man consistently on D, and pump fake on nearly every long distance shot. It's one of those addition by subtraction things - the team would lose some firepower on offense without Williams, but it would open up minutes for our younger, more promising prospects (I.E. Turner), and hopefully provide more lockdown defense and missed shots by the opposition to compensate for Lou Will's offense.

How much of this is on Collins? The team has three players more capable than Williams of starting the offense (Holiday, Turner and Iguodala), but I don't think it's necessarily 100 percent Lou's selfishness that results in the ball being in his hands so often in late game situations. Collins has to be encouraging that to happen. Which of course, is a bad, bad basketball decision.

It'd be interesting to see some kind of breakdown of points scored by the man Lou is guarding against Lou's own point production to see if there is a net gain or net loss in that respect. Just from watching the games, I'd think those numbers would probably even each other out. Lately, Williams has shown himself to be improving in catch and shoot situations, driving into the lane, and occasionally hitting tough, contested shots at crucial moments. I think, if used properly, L. Will is still an asset that provides some much needed offense. However, he's certainly not being used properly right now.

He's still young enough to clean up his game and become more efficient, but with the Sixers recent draft picks and the emergence of Holiday and Turner, how much is he taking away from those guys? It's a tough question. You look at a game last night and it seems obvious that he 'won' the game for us, but at what cost? How many wasted possessions are there after he catches fire and begins to go away from the things he's good at in favor of running down the shot clock and forcing iso plays at the top of the key? I'm torn about Williams - he can really put the Sixers on his back sometimes, but just as often shoots them in the foot. Sometimes simultaneously, like last night.

jkay reply to dwhite on Jan 15 at 15:11

tell you what; he's on a run for sixth man of the year.

Old School Sixer Fan reply to jkay on Jan 15 at 15:21

That would only be because of blind stats. If you watch him play he looks way less valuable. Even on his game-winning shot last night, I was screaming "Nooo" as he rose up to shoot that three pointer. He just hapened to make a really bad shot.

well yeah, numbers are all that matter.

Did Manu become a starter in San Antonio?

If not - he's still your leading candidate

Rich reply to jkay on Jan 15 at 15:29

If anyone, Thad would be the Sixth Man candidate for this team.

Ken Berger: According to one management source, Melo may not lose a dime by passing on extension because all contracts will be rolled back anyway. Twitter

I honestly don't see any way players don't make every penny for contracts they've already signed. If the players' union makes those kind of concessions, they may as well just fold because they have zero, zero credibility. I could see something where current contracts only count as a certain percentage against the new cap, but that's pretty much it. If they owners won't bend on something like reducing the salaries of signed contracts, we're going to lose an entire season of basketball. No doubt in my mind.

We are going to lose an entire season of NBA basketball. If you want to see how this is going to go, look towards the NHL lock out.

Most owners will make money during a lockout - how do you think these players who are used to these big paycheck every couple weeks (month) will handle no money - how much savings you think they got?

The NBA players union has always been the weakest of the big 3 (I don't count the NHL) sports with the sharkest of the commissioners (I think Stern is the guy who smiles at you while he knifes you in the femoral artery).

NBA ratings are up this year (all games not the heat) on tv - but watch Stern still get what he wants - the unioin is weak - hunter is weak - and stern is a shark.

I think there's at least a 75% chance there will be roll backs because once the players stop getting checks neither they, nor the union, have enough money to survive as long as the owners do.

PS - I also don't buy the players bs about caring about the age restriction - why do they give a crap about how long people who aren't IN the union go to college while maybe getting an extra year of play for more useless players. Red Herring so they can 'concede' on it to get something else from ownership - but Stern knows it as well - he's an evil evil bastard

Ed Davis, 15 and 8 tonight. 7-11 shooting, 1 block.


You should give tray his own 'post meaningless one game rookie stats' here thread.

I don't mind the one-game stat lines. The things I really love are the random trends. Like "no true superstar has ever done this over a 10-game stretch before, so player X cannot be a superstar" when player X is 20-years-old.

Speaking of which, Tray, has any superstar ever lost the first 14 road games of his career?

Jason reply to Brian on Jan 15 at 22:13

I wanted to say this after the Wiz game. I really think John wall cares more about putting on a show than actually winning games. He looks completely disinterested. You could say that he doesn't care because the wizard are awful, which is valid. But i can't remember him being in a must win mode at any point in his college season. I just remember the dancing before the game.

He's been quoted saying he didn't get any tattoos as a teenager because he didn't want to tarnish his brand at the age of 16, which really makes me wonder what his #1 priority is.

Lebron James is Lebron James #1 priority

If you don't win - your brand fails quickly.

I don't think you can determine whether Wall cares or not from playing for one of the crappiest teams in the NBA.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 16 at 16:17

There's really no one else on that team, outside of the suddenly-hot Nick Young. Anyway, I'm sure you'd agree that Blake Griffin will be a superstar, and his team is just as bad.

If you at all read into things - Rip Hamilton (where did that nickname come from by the way?) has been 'benched' the past two pistons games.


johnrosz on Jan 15 at 23:03


It was Iguodala for those interested...

I wonder what ET said to Hawes, it really just looks like he told him to calm down.

Yeah, someone posted that earlier. It looked to me like Hawes did more than just say "shoot it if you're open" like he was bitching at turner, and turner basically said "f you." Iguodala was telling Turner to shut up and play. That was my take on the situation, at least. I could be way off.

No matter what was going on, I don't like any of it. It's one thing to be talking to each other, saying "you have to take that shot, if you don't the offense doesn't work." It's another to be calling a teammate out on the floor. It's another to be telling a teammate to fuck off. And it's another to be shoving a teammate to get him to shut up. Collins needs to clean this crap up. It seems pretty clear to me he's got some dissent on the roster right now. It's understandable from some guys, but not excusable. He's supposed to have enough cache to nip that crap in the bud.

Joe reply to johnrosz on Jan 16 at 14:37

I was at the game and was in the 7th row right by the foul line where it happened.

I didn't see any Hawes stuff, but I did see Iguodala really, really disgusted with Turner. I thought it was for passing on that shot and ruining the good offense it took to get it.

Iguodala showed more energy than I remember in the past.(and he sustained it) And he didn't seem to show any poor body language like he always used to in previous seasons. He just seemed sick of losing.

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