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A Couple of Big Questions

I don't think Jrue will ever be a player of the calibre to "build around." But he's a great piece to have that can fit with all sorts of other players. This is sort of how I felt about Iguodala when he was still on his rookie deal.

I have no clue how this team will obtain the services of a franchise anchoring star. But until then its all just re-arguing deck chairs. But in terms of those deck chairs- Jrue is versatile and skilled enough to fit with any star unless they are a PG.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 18 at 15:57

should read "re-arranging"

I'll kick this off. My answer to #1 is I really don't know, but building around Jrue is probably my best guess. Part 1 of that process is figuring out what else you've got on the roster, and by that I mean figuring out the best way to develop Turner. Figure out what position and what role he's best suited to play, then assess whether that works with Jrue. If it doesn't, so be it. But you have to find out.

Beyond Turner, though. If I'm making a plan to get this team to an elite level, my focus is on the summer of 2012 and the summer of 2013. Dwight Howard can opt out in 2012, Blake Griffin can be a restricted free agent in 2013. I'm doing everything humanly possible to (a) clear enough cap space to make a legitimate run at whichever one of those guys is a viable target (b) create a situation in Philadelphia that they'd want to come to.

Elevating Jrue's game should go a long way toward that goal. Having a top-flight distributor at the point is a great selling point when you're trying to recruit an elite big man. Give Jrue a finisher like either one of those guys and he's an all star. If you're starting a team with a great PG and a dominant big, it's pretty easy to fill in the pieces around him.

Anyway, that's my plan.

Max reply to Brian on Jan 19 at 11:32

Thorn has a history of being able to clear cap space. If this is the plan, I think he can do it.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 19 at 11:54

I think that (a) both Howard and Griffin will be able to do better than Holiday. One of them will probably land with Paul, another may end up with Williams. If Griffin's unhappy with Sterling, there's already thought that he would simply hop to the Lakers. On the other hand, he and Gordon may well choose to stay there. Whether you'd rather play with a guy who's already the league's (very efficient) 8th leading scorer at the age of 22, or Jrue Holiday, is at the least a tough question. Finally, as to our appeal, there's no denying that we've been one of the league's most irrelevant franchises for years now. No one wants to go play for the fourth most important team in its town, a team with no media coverage or fanbase. It now looks like LeBron's smartest choice could have been the Clippers - save a franchise and have a real shot of winning - but he gave them no consideration at all because they were the Clippers. Even the Nets got more consideration simply because they have two flashy owners. We have Ed Snider. Anyway, I don't know how we change our team's image in two years. It'll be hard to get much attention with this group; it's not as if ESPN's on the verge of falling in love with Jrue, Thad and Turner the way they did with the Blazers or Thunder.

(B), I don't know how we're going to make Jrue look so good that he becomes a draw for free agents to the extent of a Paul, Williams, Rose, etc. One problem is that Jrue just isn't Chris Paul, but let's say he is really great and he's being held back enormously by the lack of quality targets. Where do we get these quality targets to make him look good? If we're trying to clear room for Griffin and Howard, how much money can we spend on skilled big men who can finish his passes? Maybe if we trade Iguodala for expiring junk, we'd have the legroom to do that. I guess there's a scenario where it just could work, but it doesn't seem very plausible. That isn't to say we shouldn't try; I don't think it would harm us to try and fail - unless we sign finishers to make Jrue look good who are just expensive and good enough to lock us into mediocrity, a la the past few million years.

Paul and Williams will probably be on the move in 2012 as well actually - so teams are going to have a lot of work to do to arrange to land them in the new hard cap landscape that is most likely coming

A defensive Center, a big who can run the pick and roll, a knock down shooter, and a hyper athletic SF who can play defense (THAT DOESN'T NEED THE BALL)

So we already have one of those guys if Iggy would play like he did for Team USA.

I pretty much described what every team needs to win though.

But yeah, building around Jrue is the way to go. Turner doesn't fit next to him. Is Turner bad? No. But he needs the ball to get his groove on. We took Brandon Roy when we needed Ray Allen.

While I always say "WE NEED TO TRADE IGGY" we only should if we can get something that fits in return. Not many teams have anything that we'd want. They want to give up garbage expirings, which I'd take, but only if they came with multiple picks as well.

Lou and Thad are fine off the bench, but they shouldn't be anywhere near the starting line up. Everyone is basically tradeable except Jrue for players to fit around him.

Mike P reply to Mike P on Jan 18 at 16:02

Correction, Team USA Iggy who doesn't shoot threes. I remember even during the olympics he'd just jack up a random three.

Guy should never be shooting threes.

Guy should never be shooting threes.

He's shooting better than 36% this season, and his attempts are way down. I don't think that's a legit complaint at this point.

It's really not - if the broadcast last night was accurate, he's at league average for 3's this year (which is kind of a step up)

agree with Brian, keep Jrue around, continue to let him develop, Target a PROVEN superstar caliber big, someone like Blake or Dwight, which is what Jrue needs, big men who can get up & finish around the rim, , & I also agree with the post & what Anthony says, we have a lot of good pieces, but they don't seem to mesh together, so see what you can get for them. Oh, & also switch back to our previous Jerseys/Logo, they were sooo much cooler lol that might help slighty with attracting Stars to the 6ers.Wow, imagine dwight AND griffin with Jrue all on the sixers, *siigh* can't blame a fan for dreaming.

I don't think the sixers need to build around Jrue Per se. But you can make moves that benefit Jrue overall.

Example, Get a 3 pt shooter (Iggy for Galli fingers crossed), Try and get a big. Even if not building around Jrue, these are crucial things that a team needs.

But if you do decide to build around Jrue the big question then becomes what do you do with Evan turner? Would you be willing to trade him right now if you got an acceptable offer? Like Ed davis and the right to flip picks?

I do think that the sixers have to make a decision to focus on the future. There is no way they can go into a win now mode as I don't believe there is an opportunity for them to improve.

Is Jrue struggling lately because of Iguodalas return? Is this going to be a recurring question whenever Jrue or Turner seem to be in a slump?

johnrosz on Jan 18 at 16:45

is Rod Thorn even awake at this point? Last time I saw him he was cursing about something in the box, months ago

The dream unit I would build around Jrue and ET would look like this:

3: above-average perimeter defender who can knock down open looks (Bowen/Outlaw/Batum type).

4: bruising defensive rebounder who can hit mid-range jumpers off the P&R (Love/Okur/Milsap type).

5: athletic shot-blocker who runs the floor and has good enough hands to finish consistently at the rim (Ratliff/Ibaka/Camby type).

They still might lack a traditional post option, but that type of line-up should be able to operate ok when stuck in the halfcourt game. The team's MO, however, would be to attack defensively and run at every opportunity.

I think many of us have thought of this long and hard. I agree with the question : Does Rod Thorn have a pulse ? What is he doing, thinking ? He was brought in here to RUN the franchise. Could he be the FOX guarding the hen house ?

What does that even mean?

Rob_STC reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 17:08

The point is what has Thorn done since he has been here ? Has he really been involved in any discussions to do make any moves to improve this team ?

What do a fox or a henhouse have to do with it? Do you get the metaphor? Are you implying that THorn is here to poach good sixers players for other teams - or for his own self serving interests (which would explain your use of the metaphor)

What exactly is it you think Thorn SHOULD have done? I mean - I understand that since there have been hundreds of trades in the NBA this season - Thorn should definitely be held at task for not making moves.

Thorn joined a capped out, non tax paying team, with few tradeable assets and two 'bad' contracts (according to many). What is it you could have done that Rod Thorn hasn't done?

Rob_STC reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 17:35

He's got expiring contracts he could use for a serviceable, defense big man. Trading Jason Smith & Willie Green for Craig Brackins ultimately isn't a highlight. If they were truly looking at trades to upgrade the roster I am sure he isn't blind to the fact that they are in dire need of a Center.

Do you know how many expiring contracts there are floating around the league this year? Or TPE's? How many serviceable big men are available for trade? How many of them help the sixers long term and keep them under the luxury tax?

Are thses considerations you took into account or did you just assume that because you wanted it done it could be done.

The Magic have been looking for a serviceable bigman for a few weeks - they haven't found one.

TEll you what, find a serviceable big man that some team probably would be willing to trade for expiring crap that is unique to the sixers and not any other team that doesn't put the sixers over the tax

Not to mention that in terms of the long term success of this team, a serviceable bigman is useless at the moment all that does is make them more likely to make the playoffs to be bitchslapped

The sixers are not even close to beating (healthy) the celtics, magic, heat, or bulls in a 7 game series and a serviceable big man won't make it more likely

johnrosz on Jan 18 at 16:58

someone go to Chilis and ask them, I demand answers

deepsixersuede on Jan 18 at 17:26

I think Thorn, like most g.m.'s is stymied by the new playing field the cba will bring and after all it is an evaluation year. I say build a great defensive team, which means J.T.I. stays together and Brand's replacement and a starting center are drafted or traded for in the next 3 drafts and than we use Elton's money for the "missing piece".

I actually think a lot of guys here can play for a 50 win team in their current roles; Lou, Thad and Marreese need two minumum salary defensive guys with them on the bench and we need to get lucky in one of the next 3 drafts at the 4 or 5.

Here's the primary issue as I see it

It's not the new CBA
or the bad contracts
or Thorn being some sort of saboteur

It's Evan Turner

The sixers are clueless right now about Evan Turner, what he will be, what he won't be, he's taking longer than they hoped to adjust to the NBA in general - and so until he does that - you can't see how he works with Jrue, how he works with Andre and how he works with the both of them together.

In a series of 'bad' imoprtant decisions, the future direction of the franchise, and evan turners role in it is at the forefront of issues to deal with.

Combine that with someone in the franchise (who knows who) who thinks contending for a bottom feeding playoff position means not making deals you might be able to make that help long term.

However, I think the primary issue right now is where Evan Turner is going to end up

So let me try to answer both questions. First of i am a believer of the constantly building philosophy. Most championship teams are built step buy step. There are no quick builds (unless something that happens once in a century happens). I also think that championship teams are more than just a superstar. They are a collection of players, a system, a coach and a fan base. You have to have them all to win it all. So to answer the first question, i would start by building around Jrue, and then move on from there, filling all the other gaps.

The keepers at this moment should be:
- Jrue - only guy that looks like a piece of the final puzzle)
- Brand - he's worth far more on the team than as a trade bait. Trading him is counterproductive at this point.
- Collins - so far it looks as if he has the passion and ability to coach a championship team, as well as the understanding how to install a championship type of system

possible keepers:
- Turner - he is a keeper until he is fully evaluated what he can be. He may or may not become a piece of the puzzle, but unless the front office is blown away with a trade offer he should be kept
- Iguodala - he is a piece of a championship puzzle. I'm just not sure whether it's ours... It may be time for him to go, but i wouldn't mind keeping him

trade baits:
- everybody else

trade targets:
- a capable and consistent scorer both of the dribble and by using screens
- a center that can defend the paint, rebound extremely well and not be a liability on offense

As for the type of acquiring new players i prefer a combination of them all actually.
- Free agency is only useful for getting role players that are a good fit. After the new CBA is reached, the impact of free agency will decrease, which will eliminate the chances to go for the free agency direction. Right now free agency is what made 2-3 teams and destroyed 15. It's just not worth the gamble unless you are a top5 market team.
- The draft is a huge gamble, and at the end of the day it's all about luck. Yes the draft is a big part of any contender, but tanking to get a slightly higher pick is not the way to go. You can get your missing piece anywhere in the draft, you just have to get lucky. Tanking only leads to years or even decades of mediocrity and losing mentality.
- So my choice for what the direction of the team in the building process should be is trades. Smart trades are what separate the contenders from the pretenders and that's what we need

Jason reply to Xsago on Jan 18 at 18:08

"he is a keeper until he is fully evaluated what he can be."

I disagree with this completely. If the sixers can get an offer that will bring in a young player that matches better with Jrue i'd do it in a heart beat. And I still think ET has the potential to be a 20 ppg all star.

But the sixers aren't going to get an offer like that any time soon - has any draft pick seen his value plummet more than Turner this year?

Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 18:19

I think his value is higher than most people on here. I think he's still worth a top 10 pick at the minimum, I think a team around 6/7th pick would be interested in him.

I'm just speculating trying to put logic into it, but it's a weak draft, ET got fucked by the sixers situation. I also think ET would still sell seats in some places.

I don't think you have a realistic view of how Evan Turner is perceived around the league nor what sells seats in the NBA

Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 18:39

He doesn't sell in philly because 1. He comes off the bench. And 2, it's philly. Better sports to follow.

Also instead of telling me that i don't know what sells tickets around the league, please tell me what sells tickets IYO.

SUperstars and winning sells tickets
high light dunks and behind the back passes
you think people would come to clippers games to see evan turner instead of blake griffin?

Evan Turner is not yet a good nba player - people don't pay to come see bad teams with players who aren't astonishing - that's just common sense.

Most towns are more like Philadlephia when it comes to basketball then you think - they don't show up if you're losing unless there's some spectacular and possibly once in a life time (blake griffin)

The wizards had the #1 pick - still 21st in home attendance

I like Evan Turner, I hope he turns out great, but it's crazy to think he's an attendance draw right now in any city...how is wall pulling in dc or favors in new jersey or cousins in sacramento

Hell the hawks are a winning team - they're also 25th in home attendance

(The sixers are dead last in percentage attendance, the only team with a sub 70% fill rate during home games god that's pathetic)

WEird, maybe it's because of who they've played on the road - the sixers (percentage wise) have the worst fill rate in the NBA at home and the 7th best fill rate on the road

Then again, it's probably because they were excited to see Evan Turner

Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 19:03

Wizards are 30th in league if not for Wall. I think ET if given the ball and 36 minutes will turn into a ticket draw quickly. Much more so than say a greg monroe, Ed Davis, Wesley Johnson, gallinari, etc.

I think you're making an awful lot of unsupportable assmptions - why isn't derrick favors drawing? Or wesley johnson? Where is the boost in season ticket sales that the #2 pick should engender if he's such an attendance draw like you claim?

You want to stand there and say 'evan turner is an attendance draw right now' in the nba - fine - but you haven't presented a shred of supportable evidence to support the evidence that ANYONE in 2010 nba draft is a draw just yet

Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 19:30

Do you realize you come off like a douche in 90% of your posts?

ET is not a draw because the sixers failed to market him, and even worse failed to use him correctly. If they wanted to sell tickets off of Evan Turner, they should of given him the ball, as well as 36 minutes a night.

The sixers didn't market evan turner huh?

Ok, I"m done - you don't deal in facts

Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 19:41

Not correctly. Unless I missed them touting him as the future of the franchise in August up until the start of the season.

Also, you do realize that most of the discussion that goes on here is just speculation? You literally just speculated yourself that ET's trade value isn't very high...

"I don't think you have a realistic view of how Evan Turner is perceived around the league"

I mean, your view is what you have read from people reporting on the internet. I'm personally still skeptical that ETs value is as low as most fans think. Just like i was been skeptical when all the Iguodala trade rumors were flying around earlier this year.

JAson reply to Jason on Jan 18 at 19:43

and by future of franchise. I mean "savior" of the franchise. Next Franchise player, going to be a star etc.

ly. Unless I missed them touting him as the future of the franchise in August up until the start of the season.

Why would they do that?

Do you know something that everyone else who covers basketball doesn't?

Evan Turner was the #2 pick in a weak draft, I don't know that any one said he was going to be a franchise player...just because someone is picked #2 doesn't mean they're going to save a franchise - it's a common mistake comparing #2 picks across drafts and ignoring draft depth and strength comparison.

IN terms of franchise potential players - this draft was weakass - next years is (2011) worse

Jason reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 20:06

Because, you don't sell tickets by saying "Evan turner, pick #2, maybe good, but was a weak draft"

Tickets are sold by saying "National player of the year, won every major college award. The sky is the limit. future superstar, He will be great. Get your tickets now."

johnrosz reply to Jason on Jan 18 at 20:10

but then you watch him and you go "THATS EVAN TURNER???"

At least it's been that way thus far

Jason reply to johnrosz on Jan 18 at 20:11

But at least you get a little bit of ticket income, and the sixers are somewhat relevant. Much better than them never hearing about ET imo.

Tray reply to Jason on Jan 18 at 21:57

Tickets were sold back when we picked Turner. Now that he's played and people see what kind of a player he is, or what kind of player he is for the moment, at least, the guy is a complete non-draw. I don't care how much time you give him, there's no one who wants to spend money to see a guy with so little quickness, athleticism, or razzle-dazzle score inefficiently, regardless of what he was in college. That's like thinking that J.J. Redick and Morrison could have been draws their rookie seasons had they taken lots of shots. Maybe some Duke and Gonzaga fans would go to see a game; that'd be about it.

So now evan turner is JJ Redick and Adam MOrrison (who aside from skin tone have very little in common with each other in terms of their careers)?

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 22:31

I loved Morrison at Gonzaga. He has to be incredibly lazy to not even be able to come off someones bench as a 3 point specialist at this point

Yeah, I'm sure that's it

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 22:48

don't hate on the Stache. His junior year was legendary

johnrosz on Jan 18 at 19:17

I would like to see Gallinari here, it's a shame that there doesn't seem to be another viable piece that could come with him in any trade, I don't consider him a centerpiece but the type of role player I'd want back in a package for Iggy.

Depends on your definition of viable

Eddy Curry and Anthony Randolph (have to include a first round pick probably) with Galinari - does that work? Is it good enough for you.

Think is - Galinari is awesome for D'antoni's system isn't he? Iguodala isn't. I don't think they'd want him

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 20:05

I don't think Randolph is anything at this point, he's been on a few squads now and nobody seems capable of unlocking his potential.

What do they do with the Curry money? Without looking at the 2011 FA list, I don't think there are any realistic targets for this team.

Why do yo uhave to spend the money in 2011?

Common GM mistake - have cap room - must use it

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 20:12

I would want to resign Thad to a reasonable deal. I guess in your scenario, where you tell Thad "don't let the door hit you on the way out", saving the space is possible. Who are you getting in 2012?

No idea - too far away to speculate on (Dwight Howard has an option for instance) but would you rather save cap room and figure out a way to get Dwight Howard is give Thad 5 years 50 million dollars?

Stop encouraging GMs to over pay mediocre players - and then get mad when the mediocre players play mediocerly. MORE MONEY doesn't mean they're going to get better.

Thad is a nice addition to a team close to winning a title - the sixers aren't close to winning a playoff round - and they need to stop acting like it and the fans need to stop expecting it...in my opinion.

How can you expect a team to be good enough to win a round in the NBA playoffs if they start Jodie Meeks and Spencer Hawes?

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 18 at 20:39

don't look at me, I've wanted to trade Iguodala and blow this thing up for a few years now. I'm not operating under the delusion that this team will ever be in contention in Iggy's prime

The point (as I see it) is not about who you'll sign but putting yourself in position to be able to make the moves that will make you a contender. Signing Thaddeus Young long term with freed up cap room from eddy curry's expiring contract doesn't seem to fit that mold. I don't know who you target cause with a new CBA coming - 2 years is a long time

To me though - you don't give Thaddeus Young aa long term deal unless it's very team friendly - meaning not a ton of money and possibly front loaded a bit...again all depending on the new CBA

Though at the same time - I don't know when/if comcast will be willing to go over the luxury tax again, if it continues to exist.

I don't ue the trade machine (a lot, but if it got the sixers jj redick i'd figure it out :) ) - i don't target specific players 3 yeaars out - because there's just so many unknowns - but I would like the team to be in position to do something - they currently aren't

Bored and watching D-League Springfield Armour tonight haha. Yeah, it's that bad.

Brackins, for what it's worth, is the best player on the floor. I read he scored 31 last night so I was curious to check the game out. 9 points so far tonight. He can flat out score the ball. 4 rebounds in 10 minutes of play. It's too bad that we can't evaluate him vs any legitimate competition. FYI, scottie reynolds is on the Springfield Armour too. Had no idea. Like that is BIG news LOL.

Jason reply to smh1980 on Jan 18 at 20:09

Does the D-league play like the all star game? All offense, no Defense?

Thad, Lou, Speights, I wouldn't give any of them bigger contracts after their current ones are up. I'd rather save money for a star, you can always scavenge for role players, which is exactly what I think those guys are. Also get a center who can play because that will help Jrue's development. Whoever is the direct opposite of that garbage stiff the Sixers trot out there every game.

ATL/Heat game was borderline unwatchable. How does Maurice Evans get 30+ minutes? the guy is not good. I really like ATL, it's a shame that Joe Johnson isn't good enough. I don't know how any coach allows their player to shoot as much as Johnson does, and try and take his man 1 on 1 when he's being as inefficient as he was throughout the game. I really don't like the way that the Heat play, it doesn't entertain me, and i really wonder how entertained TV viewers will be, will watching LBJ and D-wade drive and kick every play really excite casual fans? I guess the starpower will.

Say what you want about Josh Smith, but he couldn't handle LBJ.Smith is not nearly as good a defender as Iggy.

Very odd overtime, both teams went small, Josh Smith was the 5 for ATL. Miami played Wade/James with Jones, House, and Chalmers.

Also in overtime, tie game with a 1:20 on the clock the heat had a major mental lapse, thought the time out was going to be called by ATL so took their eyes off the ball and Joe Johnson went unguarded creating a wide open 3 for Jamal crawford. The saddest part was that didn't even cost them the game, they had the final possesion in regulation and ended up with a 28-30 foot 3 despite having 24 seconds to set the shot up, then in overtime, down two with with 31 seconds left, the heat end up wasting the possession and again settling for a lebron James 28 foot jump shot with 7 seconds left. Was just inexplicably bad execution for the heat, can't blame it on Bosh not playing as ATL ended up losing Horford.

I don't know if I'd kill Josh Smith's defense. LeBron took 30 shots and 11 FTs to get 34 points. He also turned the ball over 6 times.

Holy crap, though. Line of the night has to be Joel Anthony.

43 minutes. 16 rebounds (8 offensive). Zero shots, zero free throws! How is that even possible? I mean, 8 offensive boards and he didn't take a single one of them back up? 43 minutes and he didn't get one shot. Wow.

He got tossed around physically by Lebron. LBJs stat line is deceiving, Josh smith didn't guard LBJ the whole game. The hawks played great Team Defense to start the game. LBJ was settling for bad jumpers because that's all the hawks were giving. After the heat got back into it and Horford left the game, it turned quite sloppy and Josh smith was guarding LBJ, and couldn't keep up.

The heat have only won a single game by 5 points or less and it was vs the wall-less wizards who gifted them the game. And they only won it because down 5 with 30 seconds left Bosh hits a 3 to put them within 2, then with 17 seconds, heat now down by four, Chris Bosh gets fouled while shooting a 3 by Andray blatche.

I am really intrigued by how the Heat will play in the playoffs. A lot of their game is getting to the line, and getting benefit calls. In tonights game the Heat were getting to the line more than the hawks, but really the hawks just didn't get the calls that they should of. They played a very physical game offensively and got quite a lot of shots near the rim that were physically contested but didn't get the calls. Come playoff time I don't expect Wade/LBJ to get to the line as easily as they are in the regular season so i'm still very skeptical of the heat.

Lebron partook in two awful sets at the end of the game that resulted in him taking almost 30 foot 3 pointers at the end of the shot clock - not sure who was calling their plays - but the heat gave that game away with crappy calls to their last shot offense

The Bobcats beat the Bulls, on the road, tonight. If that means anything in a transitive property kind of way, to you.

Alvin reply to Brian on Jan 18 at 22:58

Gerald Wallace and Derrick Rose went back and forth in the last 5 minutes of that game. Great that we have a guy like Iggy who can make it real tough for guys like Wallace.

Donnie Walsh says he can get two first-round picks for players on the current roster, which would help the Knicks' chances of landing Carmelo. A Knicks source claims that Walsh would be willing to move Danilo Gallinari, Landry Fields plus Eddy Curry's expiring contract in a potential trade for Carmelo. New York Daily News

I doubt the Sixers could get the same deal for Iguodala

If Carmelo sings the extension and go to the Nets they might offer that for Iggy, the players I mean, with no pics. Would you do it?
I think I would, although Im not as high in Field as some around here.

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