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Resurgent Suns Come to Town

Bob Cooney is chatting now, if you're bored.

On second thought, just write "Andre Iguodala sucks" on a chalkboard 10,000 times, that's basically the same thing as reading Cooney's chat.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 15:15
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I thought MarkMark's comment was really sensible (I'm kidding).

[Comment From MarkMark: ]
Do you get any inclination that the organization regrets drafting Turner over Cousins? Cousins looks like a perennial all-star and would have taken care of our need for a big. Turner isn't very athletic, can't play without the ball and is not a good shooter.

Heh, I was wondering if that was you.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 16:00
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Well of course I don't think he looks like a perennial All-Star. He has All-Star upside, but so far has serious shot selection issues, is really inefficient, and turns the ball over way too much. That said, all signs point to Westphal's being a moron of EFJ proportions who probably makes everyone on that team a lot worse by messing with their heads and encouraging their worst tendencies.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 15:37
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I feel like Cooney overall has gotten a bit better this year. or maybe just a bit more polished in his writing and public speaking. I'm not sure his analysis has improved.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Jan 24 at 15:44
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He's a very hard worker and I promise he'll get better every day he goes. Criticism of beat writers goes a little too far sometimes here IMO. When their analysis is flawed in your opinion, you can obviously disagree. After all, it's just like disagreeing with an opinion of someone on here. The idea of them taking the Sixers to task 24/7 is easier said than done though. They need to be able to see these people every day.

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tk76 reply to Rich on Jan 24 at 15:56
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Fair point. But that sort of goes hand in hand with working in the media or other public fields.

Hmm....so we can't criticize the beat writers for being uninformed and seeming to pander to the largely uninformed ignorant fan base that makes up their commenters?

Appealing to the lowest common denominator just ensures that the LCD won't bother getting any more informed.

Reinforcing ignorance is not something to be lauded

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 24 at 16:13
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That's your opinion of what he is thinking which your entitled to, but it comes off as the job he does. Again they aren't supposed to have really strong opinions, just relay information. I don't feel that he comes off ignorant, but that's me. I disagree from time to time on his analysis. Dont make the mistake of thinking these guys try to appeal to their commenters, though. That's not how it is.

Curious question: Is there anyone/thing you like in the Philly media.

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Tray reply to Rich on Jan 24 at 16:33
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I think Beerleaguer does a great job of covering the Phillies, and that's about it. I don't read Eagles coverage so I can't speak to that, but actual newspaper/TV coverage of the Sixers and Phillies is pretty lousy. Not only are the writers usually dead wrong in their evaluations of players, whether it's Iguodala or Abreu or Werth, they're not even good writers.

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Rich reply to Tray on Jan 24 at 16:42
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Well I couldn't disagree more about the Phillies stuff, respectfully though. I think Philly.com does a really good job there. Maybe people who like blogs by fans more tend to dislike mote traditional coverage. I tend to like both, seeing both serving different needs.

More traditional coverage to me means old and antiquated and behind the times, and philly.com is very much so that.

I don't read any philly paper sports sections - they're all awful

Any paper that employs billy three chairs just should be ashamed of itself

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 24 at 17:06
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Alright, so you don't read Philly.com at all then? I study media in college and this fascinates me.

I glance at philly.com - but I don't read it - there's no need to - their sports coverage is garbage, their columnists and beat writers are weak and go about appealing to the LCD just like ESKIN does. They don't ask any hard question because they don't want to lose their access (which I understand, but they lose credibility) and they don't educate the masses as much as seem to follw them and feed them to keep their clicks up (see Iguodala, Andre, subsection ignorant hate).

There's too many options out there that are better written, by more intelligent insightful people who are more dedicated to the specific sport they are writing about.

I'd rather read numerous writers at TGP than anyone who writes for the philly papers about the phillies.

Plus there's that fat slob who surprisingly hasn't eaten himself to death that any paper should just be ashamed of

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 24 at 17:38
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OK, here are my thoughts on this. Remember these are about beat writers, not columnists:

1. I think, especially in cases of the Phillies and Eagles, hard questions are always asked by the Inky and DN reporters. In the Phillies case, well how many killer questions can you ask these days? They are pretty well run as a team. I know this is a basic example, but how many times was Cliff Lee's name brought up last year? Amaro was sick of it. The Eagles cover up info about as much as any one possible team can. Their coach says nothing, he mocks a lot of reporters for asking tough questions (Les Bowen, step up). Asante Samuel yells as Domo every times he sees him for even suggesting he's a poor tackler. Like he literally yells terrible things at him. If that's not asking hard questions, I don't know what is...

2. I think that blog 'analysis' is better, but Brian can't do a lot of things people like Tom Moore/Cooney/Fagan can do. Namely, these people go to every practice/game, know the players, etc. If you take away these papers, the blogs are undoubtedly worse because they feed guys like Brian information on the team every day, which Brian can take anyway he wants. The point is that these people collect these quotes. To me that's where you need to get your information from first, then you bring it out to blogs for analysis.

3. These people know more about these teams than anyone, like it or not. I would much rather read what Cooney has to say than search a chat for a guy like Ric Bucher offering his opinion on Iguodala, when he probably hasn't watched the team play once.

So basically for those reasons, I think you have to read these papers as a fan every day if you want to stay connected.

I don't buy premise #3 - they may have more facts - but their ignorance of anyting beyond what happened statistics wise after 1950 makes what they know useless.

This is constantly reinforced when they mention how Andre Iguodala is over paid because he doesn't score 20 ppg

Notice _ I didn't mention ESPN.com as a reliable source of anything useful did i?

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 24 at 18:09
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That's just with Sixers coverage then, with the PPG argument. I get that you think Iguodala is undervalued and I agree, but really the other sports are covered with 'today's' stats.

Have you ever read 'Moving the Chains?' That guy is emailing Football Outsiders and a bunch of other Football Stats guys to see what their take is on guys. Football is probably behind in that aspect because it's such a team sport. That's why writers focus on things that happen during the games as far as X's and O's. If you think Bleeding Green Nation is way different than a Paul Domowitch/Les Bowen game wrap-up, I'd find that interesting. They look very similar to me.

The Phillies guys (Murph/Gelb) also use stats like ERA-plus, WAR, and other stuff all the time. You can't expect them to be Baseball Prospectus either though.

I don't read the phillies guys - i don't need to - if they write something worth reading - it's commented on at TGP and more intelligent comment is made from readers than any of the philly.com numbnuts.

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Rich reply to Rich on Jan 24 at 17:02
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Thinking about this more, it certainly works the other way. I know people who love Philly.com who have no clue about blogs.

Or if they know about blogs they are still ignorant enough to talk about things like 'mothers basements' would be my guess.

TGP for instance has bee mentioned in USA Today

This blog has been covertly mentioned by Matt Goukas

Philly.coms idea of a 'blog' is bleacher report - which is just enough information to keep intelligent folk away from philly.com

heh, I was in USA Today way back. :)

I was a doe-eyed optimist back then.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 17:31
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Wow, going national.

It's funny, I can remember writing that at like 7am the morning after my daughter was born. Hadn't slept for like 40 hours, got a room in some hotel in midtown and was too wired to sleep so I responded to his questions. Can't believe I mentioned Girardi as a possible replacement. Shame on me.

I don't follow the Phils, so I can't really speak on their beat coverage. I do think the Eagles are covered pretty well, comparatively.

As for the Sixers, I like the fact that there is a bunch of inside stuff available, and the writers themselves seem to be in touch w/ the public (chats, videos, etc). Cooney does seem to have improved over last year. My big wish is that there was at least one writer, or maybe even occasional columnist who would look a little deeper than PPG. Not even too deep, I don't need WS48, WP48 or anything like that, but looking at basic efficiency would be nice TS%, maybe.

Overall, I feel like when I read a recap in the major papers, I still need to do a lot of digging and math to get a clear look at what happened and why. Of course, I realize even moderately advanced stats are wasted on most readers, so I understand why PPG is still the measuring stick, a guy can wish though, right?

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tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 17:24
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Sort of same topic-

I'm amazed that some of the sports talk guys out here in Chicago throw out advanced stats all of the time. Like advanced defense stats I have no idea what they mean. Its sort of like the opposite of what I was used to in Philly, where they just called people names and yelled a lot.

dMult?

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tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 17:32
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Probably. They throw around stuff like WAR+ like they are talking ERA. I was sort of impressed in a geeky kind of way.

SB Nation has the best eagles and phillies blogs out there...this is the best sixers blog

Come on Brian

it's a ESPN chat dedicated to the miami heat

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/36639

FOUR CHATTERS take part in the only team specific NBA chat that doesn't have a 'local ESPN.com' associated with it

I thought Thorn's explanation as to how Iguodala and Turner can fit together was really dim. It was basically, "Iguodala's a great athlete, Turner's not at all." That doesn't show that they don't do basically the same things on offense, it just shows that Turner does those things in much less athletic fashion. Of course, I highly doubt that Turner ever becomes good enough that it would make sense to trade a top 30 player in the league because he doesn't fit well with Turner, but the fact that Turner lacks Iguodala's athleticism doesn't make them somehow fit together.

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tk76 reply to Tray on Jan 24 at 16:24
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I did sort of buy his line about great players working it out. It's just unclear how great Iguodala is or Turner will become. Certainly not great enough to be the centerpiece of a contender. But maybe good enough to work on a team with a truly elite big (who did not need jump shooters.)

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Tray reply to tk76 on Jan 24 at 16:30
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Well, Kobe's a great player but there are surely a lot of players who he wouldn't be able to play with. I'd say that if Turner ever got good enough to merit heavy usage, we'd have too many wing players on our hands with bad jump shots. Assuming Turner doesn't develop one - he still could. I think it's safe to say Iguodala's never going to become a good shooter.


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