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A Righteous Rebound

Well to be fair the Nuggets are the number 1 offensive team in the league. Your Ortg/Drtg metrics are different from other sites so i can't compare that number to their average but i think Denver had a worse offensive game than usually. That can't be bad.

In other news, Collins has definitely finally given Turner a bigger role in the offense. Turner gets the ball more of late, he is allowed to create and for the most part he's delivered. He was a bit out of control at times, but for the most part he starts to resemble the guy everybody hopes he is.

Yeah, I didn't even check their season number, just saw the Sixers allowed 112+ OFR, which is bad, but it is slightly under Denver's season OFR (which is amazing). I guess I hoped they'd do better w/ Melo being completely shut down, but Chauncey's explosion evened that out.

At some point will ESPN do a piece where they make a graphic of notable wings who have been Iguodala'd?

I kind of doubt it. Well, that's not true, if he gets traded to a city they like, they'll make the chart to show how good he is. As long as he's in Philly, they'll just keep calling him overpaid.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 13:45

Well, there's a reason for this. Sports writers love the big piece whose contributions aren't expressed by the stat sheet angle. They wrote about Artest wherever he was. But if Artest had been the featured guy in Indiana, all the stories would say, "Artest's a nice defender but he's a really crude offensive player who's overpaid and can't shoot." The flawed but really good, in some respects, best player on a team isn't nearly as conventional a narrative, or as fun for writers to talk about, as the unsung (but really extremely sung) hero who makes everything work without scoring.

I'm going to be in meetings until this afternoon. Check out the first story on the reading list for a conversation starter, though. The choice appears to be Turner or Jrue when you're talking about defense. Lou has to be on the floor.

mgfields reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 10:19

Here is what I think Collins is thinking. He has said in interviews that he wants "enough shooting" out on the floor when Dre and Turner are playing together. For some reason, Collins equates "enough shooting" with Lou, not Jrue (or even Meeks).

Personally, I don't like Lou's game and would much rather see Jrue out there with Turner/Dre. I don't think I would say Jrue is the future by himself. I would say the Turner/Jrue/Dre backcourt is the future. They will really shut some people down when they get it together.

If the sixers are leading a game - then Collins logic is sill - at best

This is something interesting that I would post now rather than save until the weekend.

Andre Iguodala: The Philadelphia forward has been on the Warriors' radar for a while, according to team sources. But a few things are working against the Warriors. The 76ers (20-26) are eighth in the Eastern Conference, making it unlikely they'll dump a star while in the playoff chase. Rookie Evan Turner has struggled, making Iguodala less expendable. And the Warriors' lack of a desirable center deprives them of the bargaining chip the 76ers need. San Jose Mercury-News

Course, as we all well know, Andre Iguodala has no trade value and no one really wants him.

From the same article (missed it when I saw the first paragraph)

According to one team source, it would take a monster offer to pry Stephen Curry from the Warriors' hands. San Jose Mercury-News

So they want Iguodala but the sixers want a center (that they don't have) and it would take a 'monster' to pry Curry

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 13:01

I don't see Iguodala as a monster.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 13:02


Golden States big weakenss is they suck defensively.

I think giving them one of the best defenders in the league AND taking a crappy contract off their books (Biedrins) should be monster enough for Curry.

But if the sixers are 'center focused' and seem not to enjoy the Warriors centers (saw some nice passes from Biedrins last night that I didn't think Hawes could make) - then there's no deal to be made.

But great defender and dumping a terrible contract sounds monster to me...

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 13:48

I would rather move Turner for Curry, if Turner could be brought along to the point where GS would consider that. Aren't you really making the core worse if you move Iguodala for Curry? Are you even creating cap space, if you take on Biedrins, that you could use to sign a star big?

You aren't making the core worse if you trade curry for Iguodala...not if you can think past this season, if you're thinking this season, then yeah the sixers MIGHT be worse - but they'll still probably snag the 8 seed and you've got 3 guys in your 'core' more on the same career trajectory.

Turner for curry - sure - but that's not a 'monster' as much, what else do you add to make it more 'monster' for GSW - givem a great sixth man (lou) or a guy having a great season (thad)?

What do you take back?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 15:11

Not if I can think past this season. So what happens past this season that makes that deal work out in our favor? Savings that we use to pay someone?

What's better

3 all star caliber players (if they get there) peaking at the same time - or 2 all star caliber players peaking while one guy is about to start the downslope of his career.

The sixers are a roster of mismatched parts - partly because of the career arc thing - Turner, Curry, Holiday grows together, matures together, peaks together (in theory)

Iguodala is at his peak and it's being wasted waiting for two other guys to catch up.

The salary has jack all to do with it - in fact the sixers probably have to take back a longer deal (biedrins for instance) to get curry for iguodala (only)

The sixers aren't getting a super star via free agency - period - the city has NO allure to free agencies compared to warmer climates, better support (advertising dollars) like Boston or New York, tax free incentives, etc...

All things being equal I think the sixers would be as attractive a free agent destination as the swamps of new jersey (with no brooklyn involved) or vancouver

This is a tweet from Kate Fagan:

At 76ers practice. Collins says this shift in Iguodala seems legitimate. Says he's going to start playing Dre more as point-forward.

What shift is she talking about?

mgfields reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 12:04

In being a more vocal leader? That's the story the papers are pushing, the Dre is being a more better leader.

mgfields reply to mgfields on Jan 31 at 12:07

That post might be my worst grammer ever.

That post might be my worst grammer ever.

My favorite irony of the week :)

mgfields reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 12:53


scott reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 12:09

I think she is talking about the shift she describes in this article:


Supposedly Iguodala has been stepping up into more of a leadership role as of late. The question was whether or not it is legit.

I think the shift is more of an attitude thing than an x's and o's thing.


Iguodala seems to same to me as he always has since Iverson and Weber left.

Maybe the shift is non existent but the perception by the masses is different because his numbers are up the past couple games.

One off shooting night and I expect the tide would turn again

Iguodala as a point forward - gee, only a couple years late

I do love the script though...

Iguodala scores less than 20 points = Write about how overpaid he is, how they need to get rid of him.

Iguodala scores more than 20 points = Write about what a great leader he is, but make sure you hint at how he really should've been doing this all the time, but leave the door open for maybe he'll be like this going forward, only so you can slam it shut the next time he scores less than 20.

Isn't that what it feels like?

To me I haven't seen anything different except the shots are falling these days

He's been playing the same game. I mean, he's averaged better than 5 assists for his entire career, now it's breaking news that he's playing some "point forward?"

Based on the number of arguments with people that told me he couldn't be the 'back up' point - yes it does :)

He's playing the same game yes, but i have a feeling that this season Iguodala has a slightly better shot selection. He's driving to the hoop a bit more and has reduced the unnecessary long 2-pointers.

And honestly he is playing better defensively than ever.

Iguodala scores more than 20 points = Write about what a great leader he is, but make sure you hint at how he really should've been doing this all the time, but leave the door open for maybe he'll be like this going forward, only so you can slam it shut the next time he scores less than 20.

I've been a little disappointed with Kate's writing about Iguodala this year, as she really seemed to appreciate his game when she first started (08-09). It does seem she's writing to please the 98% of her readership that hates Iguodala, which I guess is natural (but unfortunate).

But Kate is still better than Cooney, who wrote an entire blog post today about how he is "baffled" by Iguodala. Once the writers and fans stop looking solely at PPG, they'll be able to appreciate Iguodala's game more accurately (neither will ever happen, in all probability).

You're right, Brian: if Iguodala goes 6-12 1-2 13 with 6 rebounds, 7 assists, and 2 steals in the next game, the criticism will begin again. Leadership isn't about PPG, it's about making your team and teammates better.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 13:03

Point forward = further marginalization of Jrue.

Any argument used to justify Lou over Jrue in the fourth applies to this issue as well (in my opinion).

These are moves made to worry about the short term success of the team (and collins coaching record) than the long term development of the player.

Anyone 'pro' lou in the fourth should be pro iguodala point forward - they're the same principle to me - which is why arguing the pros and cons might get tiring cause it's the same basic points and premise :)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 13:18

It can be argued that utilizing Iguodala as point still results in good flow. Where Lou kills ball movement. So they are not the exact same in a basketball sense.

They're the same (to me) in development sense though - both ideas hinder the development path of Jrue Holiday.

For those who enjoy investigating the psyche of players, does the 'lack of confidence' Collins shows in Jrue in the fourth, or when Iguodala is healthy - does that hurt Jrue's self confidence?

I'm not saying it does or it doesn't - but all these 'pro lou and iguodala' comments come at the expense (without it being said) of Jrue Holiday and could hurt his self confidence...rightly or wrongly to me it's something that could be a factor.

Making Iggy the point forward and having a short leash fucks up Jrue's development.

Cousins is starting to put it together in Sactown and we are fucking with the teams future.



Because yeah, that worked for the last decade. Oh well, at least the flyers are good right?

He's been playing the point forward his entire career, that's what I don't get here. I mean, is she saying something's going to change, because as far as I can tell, nothing has. In which case, this is stupid and nothing to worry about.

If the news here is that Iguodala is going to play more point forward, take on more of the offensive initiation, then yeah, it's going to hinder Jrue and it pisses me off.

Mike P reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 12:46

I mean you either play Iggy so he has the ball ALL the time, or you have a PG who has the ball all the time so Iggy can concentrate on getting to the hoop and playing lock down D.

Did Collins just figure out NOW that Iggy can pass? I mean we are past the halfway point now. What the hell is he doing?

The thing that bothers me most about the Sixers now is not even Iggy, Iggy is great at what he does. If we can keep him and rebuild the garbage roster that we have right now, lets do it, but we keep picking up redundant pieces that don't fit with any real strategy. Do we even HAVE a strategy right now?

Being on the barely .500 not rebuilding but not doing anything line is one of the most frustrating things in sports fandom.

Everytime it seems like there might be some hope for the franchise is gets uprooted in some stupid way.

We get the 2nd round pick! But we use it someone who might have been the worst choice given our teams make up.

Jrue is playing great! But now we just figured out our best player play great with the ball in his hands all the time, there by nullifying many of Jrue's strengths. Oh yeah, anytime one of the youngest players in the game makes a mistake, our great new coach is going to yank him out of the game.

Oh well, like I said, I can't wait to see what middling prospect we get in the mid rounds.

I mean you either play Iggy so he has the ball ALL the time, or you have a PG who has the ball all the time so Iggy can concentrate on getting to the hoop and playing lock down D.

One, that's a bad idea, to me, it weakens the team overall...what it means is that if Iguodala has the ball off a rebound, let him run the transition, finding the 'point guard' maybe slows them down.

Two, the sixers back up point guard is god awful as a point guard (Lou). So if Lou is on the floor as long as he's on the floor with Jrue, Evan OR Andre (imo) he's not the guy who should be initiating the offense.

Having a second initiator (in my opinion) only makes your team harder to guard.

Mike P reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 12:58

It's great when Iggy can get the ball off a rebound and takes it down to find a big or someone for an open three, but the thing is we have no bigs or people who can hit open threes except Meeks.

Whenever Jrue doesn't have the ball on offense he just looks lost. Why take a classic game controlling PG and then hope he can play like a SG off the ball when he showed in college that was something he couldn't do?

I'm all for Iggy's playmaking skills being utilized, but if it's on like every play (like I just said incorrectly, my bad) then that is a bad thing. Jrue should be bringing the ball up after scores and all that. Let Jrue get through the growing pains, getting a few wins now at the cost of his confidence and development is a big mistake.

So basically what you said is right. I tried and failed to say that putting Iggy is a "bigger" role as the P/F will be a mistake, because he is already a point forward. What does that mean? Will he be bringing the ball up?

I guess we will have to wait til the next game.

Collins said after Monday's practice that he's planning to use Iguodala more as a point forward. Perhaps it's to take advantage of his decision-making (three assists, no turnover in 4th vs. Memphis when rest of team had 2 and 11) and size.

Tom, has he made any comments about Jrue. Specifically, about the downturn in Jrue's play since Iguodala's return?

I asked if he was worried about how Jrue would handle being pulled from guarding Billups and possible fewer minutes at the point with Iguodala getting some burn there. He basically said that he's not because Jrue is mature enough to handle it. "Sure he can," Collins said. "He's going to play Devin Harris, then Raymond Felton twice. Then he's going to play Bibby and Jamal Crawford and then Jameer Nelson. He's just seen Steve Nash, Calderon, Deron Williams and Michael Conley. (With Billups) that's just a situation where it's a bad matchup. You're not saying, 'I don't believe in the guy.' "

More Collins: "I'm going to use (Iguodala) more as a point forward. That doesn't change anybody else's role because our offense is interchangeable. 'Dre, Jrue, Lou and Evan are all interchangeable. When they send that pick and roll down, (Iguodala is) big enough to see to the other side of the floor. Yesterday in the fourth quarter, he found Evan for a three-pointer. He found Lou in the corner for a 3-pointer. Just by looking up and seeing over the defense. If you're a smaller guy, you can't make that pass."

Off to work out. Be back in an hour or so.

tk76 reply to Tom Moore on Jan 31 at 13:21

So Jrue is too small to see over the defense?

That was a BS statement if I ever heard one. Certain Sixers might lack court vision. But Iguodala isn't a better passer because he is taller...

Why does Lou have the ball, then? He's the shortest of the three.

He's a 'shooter'

Except that what you say and what you do might implicate two different things.

If you can get access to Jrue - see if you can get him to tell you how it feels to be pulled like that, or to have Lou Williams be the 'initiator' in the fourth quarter.

Don't care what collins THINKS it means - care what it means to Jrue.

If Collins is worried more about what he thinks than how it actually impacts his players - his ego is in the way

Holiday tends to be not very forthcoming with the media. I tried to get him to talk about using his left hand primarily on layups and dunks and he wanted no parts of it, for some reason.

Perhaps Collins' decision is partially in response to some Holiday fourth-quarter turnovers. Know coaches are trying to get him to stop leaving his feet prior to throwing a pass because he can get caught in the air and have to force the ball.

Holiday tends to be not very forthcoming with the media. I tried to get him to talk about using his left hand primarily on layups and dunks and he wanted no parts of it, for some reason.

Perhaps Collins' decision is partially in response to some Holiday fourth-quarter turnovers. Know coaches are trying to get him to stop leaving his feet prior to throwing a pass because he can get caught in the air and have to force the ball.

Sorry it appeared twice for some reason. Now I'm really off.

bebopdeluxe on Jan 31 at 13:08

It sucks that jsut as we seem to be "getting" Turner we are "losing" Jrue.

I wonder if Jrue's development would have been or would be helped by having that 15th slot filled by a Kevin Ollie-type vet PG to help the kid...or by having a true PG as one of the assistants.

.or by having a true PG as one of the assistants.

Aaron Mckie really helped him out supposedly last year, so where is it this year.

I think Collins is interfering in Jrue's development - I think (yet again) the sixers put unrealistic expectations on a second year player but then Collins keeps him on an incredibly short leash because his thinking is too short term.

Hearing him as a 'dark horse' for COY kind of aggravates me - because it's not that they were that terrible last year - they were that terribly coached

I am happy to see that Iguodala has improved on his A/TO ratio this year. But maybe that is partly because he is not trying to be the "point forward" and letting Jrue fill that role.

If over the next few weeks we see Jrue being marginalized, and Iguodala's TO's increase then there will be ample reason for criticism. But it hasn't happened yet, so I guess we will see how it plays out.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 13:11

Somehwat related- Jrue has been up and down this year (thankfully more up.) And while I don't expect consistency at age 20, how much of the variability in his performcance has to due with changing roles due to Lou and Iguodala's handling "point" duties?(pure PG vs defacto SG.)

I think it has a ton to do with it, personally. It's anecdotal, obviously, but for the most part, Jrue is really effective within games in the first and third quarters. Much less so in the second and fourth, mainly because he doesn't play the point as much in the second and fourth.

I think this probably comes down to turnovers. Lou may suck ass at a ton of things, but he doesn't turn the ball over a lot. Iguodala has been great at taking care of the ball this season, and he was always pretty good at it. Turner has 26 assists to 3 turnovers in his last 8 games.

That's the only thing logic I can come up with. He can call it defense, or offensive flow or whatever he wants, but it's just coming down to taking care of the ball.

Personally, I'm fine with a higher turnover rate from a 20-year-old PG I'm grooming for the future, especially when he's making plays with those passes, which Jrue is. Whatever the case, I hope this is being communicated to Jrue, very clearly. "Take better care of the ball, and you'll have it more."

Any way you slice it, it disturbs me. Taking him out for a series of mistakes? That's fine by me. But completely changing his role to avoid a problem that only presents itself sporadically is going to hinder his development.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 13:32

" Taking him out for a series of mistakes? That's fine by me. But completely changing his role to avoid a problem that only presents itself sporadically is going to hinder his development."

That sums it up nicely.

To be clear about this, I don't think Jrue is some kind of shrinking violet who's going to be permanently scarred by watching Lou and Iguodala run the point while he stands in the corner. That's not what this is about. I think it'll probably motivate him to get better at whatever Collins is telling him he needs to improve.

The thing that's frustrating me is the opportunity cost. I don't give a crap about Lou Williams and whether he learns to perform under the added pressure of the fourth quarter. I care that Jrue gets those reps against tougher defense in the closing minutes. I care that he builds the confidence in himself to be able to perform in crunch time. Eventually, he'll get there (and I'm still not sure it's been proven he isn't there right now), it's just that I think this marginalization is making the timeline longer. That's what has me pissed.

One more clarification: I have much less of a problem with Iguodala running point forward with Jrue on the floor than I do with Lou running the point with Jrue on the floor. If you're on the floor and you do work off the ball to get open, Iguodala will find you and get you a high percentage look. Jrue can be an asset off the ball with Iguodala making plays. Lou is myopic when he has the ball and only passes as an afterthought. It's seriously pointless to have Jrue out there watching Lou dribble.

I care that Jrue gets those reps against tougher defense in the closing minutes. I care that he builds the confidence in himself to be able to perform in crunch time. Eventually, he'll get there (and I'm still not sure it's been proven he isn't there right now), it's just that I think this marginalization is making the timeline longer. That's what has me pissed.

I'm generally in agreement with you on this, but there is a fine line to walk on this, and I'm almost positive it has to do with turnovers. I'm trying to prepare a post on this (it may take a while), but Jrue's turnover rate is very poor in clutch situations and gets worse as the situation becomes "more clutch." (My post is going to define "clutch" the way 82games.com does it, then "super-clutch" as one-possession game in the last two minutes, then "end of game" as one-posession game in the last 24 seconds.)

But here is the quandary and the probable reason that you and a lot of us don't think Lou is any better: Lou won't commit as many turnovers, but he'll much more likely dribble an entire possession away so that the possession winds up with a tough jumper. And that type of possession is only marginally worse than a turnover possession (provided the turnover doesn't lead to an immediate fastbreak for the other team).

Anecdotally, I think opponents have developed a scouting report on Jrue that says, in late game situations, if he is pressured (for example with a secondary double-team) and can't finish himself, he tends to make poor decisions. But I'm confident Collins is working with Jrue on this in practice, and it wouldn't surprise me if Jrue gets crunchtime reps vs. New Jersey (which is very poor at defending point guards) on Wednesday, should they be needed.

Rich reply to Statman on Jan 31 at 14:29

He had a huge crunch-time bucket in a game at New Jersey earlier this year, I believe an 'and one' where he split the double.

I agree that Jrue has been poor setting his teammates up in clutch situations. My concern is that the success he's having scoring in late game spots makes him gravitate toward becoming simply a scorer. Also, he watches Lou get time when he plays that role too. Notice Chris Paul's team is the best in the NBA in clutch situations, and I think it's because their style doesn't change. When Jrue picks his spots and is setting up other guys, that's when the team is tough to defend in the half-court.

Jrue is still one of the youngest players in the league - he's going to be inconsistent, especially in end-of-game situations.

The lack of young players having to earn their minutes is one of the biggest problems with the current NBA. When Jrue is playing well, he'll get opportunites to finish games. Sharing the responsibility, seems like a reasonable way to close out games at this point.

Why should Jrue's "development" be priortized to the point where he's allowed to lose games that the rest of the team has put themselves in a position to win. What does that accomplish in the big picture?

The lack of young players having to earn their minutes is one of the biggest problems with the current NBA.

Probably not, and I really don't care about problems with the current NBA - I care about problems with the current sixers coaching staff.

And hindering the development of Jrue Holiday by allowing Lou Williams to be terrible and not get benched is just a horrible idea.

Using that logic, what does it say when Jrue is one of the guys who put them in the position to win the game, only to take a back seat and watch Lou Williams blow it in the fourth?

You say Jrue gets the opportunity when he's playing well, but that's simply not the case. He gets the opportunity to stay on the floor and stand in the corner while Lou runs the point in crunch time.

And I'm also not sure how Jrue hasn't earned his minutes. The team has been unbelievably better with him on the floor than when he's on the bench.

This all gets back to the basic Issue with J/T/I. How do you maximize the players and team in a situation where each of the three individually are at their best when creating?

It might work where all 3 find that balance. And increased PT, experience and improved shooting will all help them integrate their talents. But big picture the answer might be to trade one of them. But that is not a decision that has to be made right away.

I think it's a decision that does need to be made sooner rather than later - for some reason - this trade deadline seems to be very active compared to other years and there would be demand for any of the 3 players the sixers have that you mentioned - maybe more so than other years (especially with Iguodala in my opinion)

If Iguodala is the one that needs to go, I feel this year might be the best deadline to get talent for him

Rich reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 14:37

When Turner has been getting his minutes recently, he looks pretty comfortable playing off the ball. He doesn't seem to monopolize the ball and he certainly gets his shots up as I believe he lead the team yesterday with 13 :)

This is something to monitor, because this "three creators" thing might be overblown as Turner looks to be adjusting his game to fit in with Jrue and Iguodala.

OldSchoolFan on Jan 31 at 13:47

Any thoughts as to why Speights never was put back in after picking up his third foul? That seemed particularly strange since one of his first two was questionable and his performance seemed OK.

I expect he was being punished.

Though going small did seem to work out pretty well in the second half?

You really can't go small against the Sixers. I mean never. The Sixers are so versatile when they go small, and Iguodala and Thad just dominate in those situations when the team isn't at a size disadvantage.

I meant the sixers going small - thad / brand PF/C seemed to work real well so maybe it was just a match up thing that kept him benched?

Yeah, I know. I was just reacting to the memory I had of Denver going small. Such a huge mistake against this team.

Brian's right -- matchups. Unless Speights played center, there was nobody for him to guard (with Denver going to 'Melo at the 4). Plus, Speights is not a great decision-maker in the clutch (though he isn't the only one on this team).

What does being a good decision maker in the clutch matter on the sixers? Lou is the clutch dude on this team and his decision making at all times is questionable at best.

Why can't Speights play center again?

Seems to me like Speights gets his chance, if he doesn't blow Collins away, he's forgotten about for the rest of the game. Right or wrong, that's how it seems to go, to me. If he's on fire and playing well, Collins will go back to him, otherwise, he's an afterthought.

The more irritating thing to me is that the Toronto Pick And Roll success seems not to have influenced anyone

And if synergy would get their stuff together, maybe I could find it out.

If they aren't going to be available for this season they should block out their web site - (and they should answer inquiries from customers)

You know what's really interesting? People were actually crazy enough, when Turner was playing awfully, to say we needed to trade Iguodala so Turner could flourish. But when Iguodala actually appears to maybe be holding Jrue, way better player, back a little, that's not trotted out as a reason to trade him.

You know what's interesting?

It's a stupid premise that Iguodala is holding either of them back, and yet people keep wanting to trot it out.

Usually people who aren't fans of Iguodala and want to find something to blame on him

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 14:03

Well at least it makes a little sense with Jrue, whereas Turner's best play has really been recently, alongside Iguodala. Whereas with Jrue, it has been the case that his role has shrunk with Iguodala back, and finally playing an active offensive role.

His role shrinks in the fourth - whether Iguodala is playing or not.

Where's the articles about Lou holding Jrue back?

Rich reply to Tray on Jan 31 at 14:43

People are going to be crazy when they didn't really know what the hell Turner was doing out there. Some wanted Turner gone in the middle of the season, others wanted Iguodala traded so Turner could 'flourish,' as if that is automatically what would have happened.

If the Sixers trade Iguodala, it's going to be because they get a nice package/talent haul back, not because Turner needs him gone to spread his wings. We still don't even really have any knowledge what the hell Turner is going to be (Though he's been better), so it's foolish to make roster moves slotting in unknowns. That's an unnecessary risk. It looks as if the Sixers feel that way as well. For once, I completely agree with the Sixers front office.

Like it or not, Lou is their best isolation scorer. Sort of like being the tallest midget at the circus.

Running down the shot clock and running an iso is the way a lot of teams try to close out games. This team is rather unreliable when it comes down to executing set plays, so going to their best one-on-one guy is the default Collins goes to.

At this point in time, Iguodala has shown to not be very good in that role and neither Jrue nor Turner are explosive enough or skilled enough to be better than Lou at it. Hopefully, Jrue and Turner improve to the point where they can be that guy.

As long as he's on the roster, Lou is the best option for this team in that role.

This is kind of like saying Lou is the best guy at jumping off a bridge, and since everyone else is jumping off bridges, we have to use Lou to jump off bridges.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 15:07

Well, except in this case the bridge-jumping occasionally results in points. I guess the analogy would be right if 30% of the time, when you jumped off the bridge, there were a small pot of gold waiting for you. And the rest of the time you just slightly injured your head.

There's too many logic fails in the thought process

1. Stop doing what other teams do unless it plays to a strength.

2. Isos for Lou are not a strength

3. Lou doesn't know what to do when he's double teamed except try and dribble around it.

4. Speights and Brand are more consistent from about 16 feet out game to game than lou is

5. Until teams figure out not to guard Thad Young so close, I think he's a better athlete and more likely to beat his man off the dribble than Lou

6. Lou sucks defensively

Rich reply to CM on Jan 31 at 14:55

Aside from the obvious criticisms, Is Lou the best iso scorer? I would say it's Thad.

Cin reply to Rich on Jan 31 at 15:09

In a close out scenario I assume the thinking here is to keep the ball in the hands of someone who can create for others off an iso.

Iguodala isn't a threat as a shooter but as was mentioned his shot selection is much better this season.
I think a Jrue iso turns into a TO from a jump pass more often than not.
Thad, although our best in non-endgame iso scenarios, will either drive left or be denied off the ball since he can't safely initiate an offense.
We're left with Sweet Lou... and, well... he can run the clock down with the best of them.

More often than not seems like an exaggeration.

To me, this is the flaw in Collins' logic. Lou is probably the best guy at making bad shots on the team. He makes a bunch of stupid shots after needless pump fakes, I guess you could say that's his best talent. The problem is that when you give him the ball in an iso situation at the end of a game/quarter/half you're basically saying, "Well, there's no way we're going to get a good shot, so we may as well get the bad shot from our best bad shot shooter." It's defeatist, to put it kindly. Makes me wish I had hair to pull out.

bebopdeluxe reply to Rich on Jan 31 at 15:19

I think that, for this team as currently constituted to take its best step forward, the primary iso scorer in crunch-time needs to be Turner. He has a high-quality handle for a guy his size. He's a good passer. He takes care of the ball. And - if his college success is any indication - he has had success with the ball in his hands as a finisher.

This team will do JACK in April/May is Lou is our end-of-game finisher, IMO....and unless things change dramatically between now and the end of the season, I don't see Turner getting that chance anytime soon.

I do see things changing. His jumper is hopefully one of them but he may need an offseason or two for that. Really though, his defensive skills are obviously highly regarded and more importantly he takes care of the ball. Coming off a 4.0 TOPG senior year this must have been an immense limitation in the first half of the season given his limited opportunities with so many capable ball-handlers around him. I think he'll go as far as his D takes him for now, but come the stretch run for the 6th seed he'll be primed for a takeover.

Young needs to improve his dribbling before he can be a primary iso guy, IMO.

Much like Holiday

He can't improve his dribbling in clutch situations without, you know, getting the ball in clutch situations.

The organizational impetus to getting wiped out in the first round of the playoffs is hindering numerous players development

Rich reply to Tom Moore on Jan 31 at 16:04

Fair point Tom, but I don't think we need a primary iso guy. I just think Thad is the best iso scorer on this team, and considering he's shooting 55 %, he's not far off. It just gets back to this idea of playing isolation basketball at the end of games is the only solution. It's not.

I think the 'everybody else does it so we should too' thing doesn't work unless you hve a great iso guy - the sixers don't have a great iso guy - they are just picking the best of a bad bunch

The thing is defenses get tight in end-game situations. Teams tend to force the offense into iso situations because percentage-wise it works for the most part unless if you are playing against Kobe and other clutch players. The reason I think Collins goes with Lou over Jrue in clutch moments is because of Jrue's mistakes at the end of games. A lot of those losses in the last minute this season has come from Jrue turning the ball over, making stupid fouls etc. Also Jrue needs to learn to slow down the pace in clutch situations. His pacing is like it is the rest of the game. When a player matures they know you have to pick and choose when to go full throttle or when to pull back and make smart plays. Given Jrue's age and time in the NBA it makes sense. He's where he needs to be in his development.

Turner on the other hand needs to pick up the pace as he is behind the learning curve. I know he's supposed to be a late starter, but eventually that excuse has to go away in an 82 game season.

Teams don't seem to 'force' the sixers into iso situations late in the game. Lou stands around dribbling until the shot clock runs down and everyone else watches him.

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