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Who's Holding Who Back? (If Anyone)

bebopdeluxe on Jan 31 at 16:18

Just throw J/T/I out there and be done with it.

Best defensive group - by a long shot. All three are great passers - particularly in transition. All three can run the offense - which should give ample opportunities to find mismatches on the floor and exploit them. Turner's handle should allow him to work well in isolation on the perimeter...leading to drawing the defense and finding the open man (something that Lou's size and selfish-gunner mindset will NEVER be able to do). Jrue is a good enough shooter from distance to makes teams pay for leaving him alone.

This is a no-brainer for me.

What he said

Awesome post Brian. I have a lot of thoughts. The one thing I don't agree with is that Iguodala is an elite finisher. He throws down some hellacious dunks, but he I don't think he's very good finishing after contact. Everything else I agree with 100 % though.

The first thing I would like to say is that I hate, hate, hate the phrase "holding people back." It's a phrase that is often very unclear and seems a scapegoat for people to criticize a certain player or players. Basketball is a free flowing team game, and if a player touches the ball somewhat regularly, they should at least be a decent facsimile (I hope I used that right) of who they are with plays run for them with regular touches. Iguodala holding back Turner has been the stance du jour of many people, but as you see it was just Turner playing poorly. He needed time to adjust to many different aspects of the NBA game, and now he's starting to do it. Personally, I think coaching (minutes, and in limited cases style of play- Steve Nash would be worse in Milwaukee, etc.) can hold a player back. Really, the style changes seem like they are most applicable to a pure point guard like Jrue. That's why I think it's more Collins holding Jrue back than Lou.

I also believe that the team's highest ceiling unit would be the JTI unit. Their defense would be the best if all are playing at high levels. I think Collins wants more offense in there because he believes he can coach anyone defensively. I don't agree, and he doesn't realize the future/current interests are the same. Those three are offensively talented players. None are Thabo Sefalosha.

Lou and Jodie shouldn't play together ever, because they really are both shooting guards. Running Lou off screens isn't bad offense, he's great making that jumper in the short corner.

Finally, I find it funny that Iguodala holds anyone back. He really hasn't used that much of the ball in his career, and now he needs it even less. The only way I understand him not being able to play with anybody is with two other poor shooters. Lou/Jodie/Evan/Jrue aren't superb shooters, but they take and make enough to keep the defense honest.

"The one thing I don't agree with is that Iguodala is an elite finisher. He throws down some hellacious dunks, but he I don't think he's very good finishing after contact"

Agree with this. In fact, I've been saying for years I think he's below average finishing after contact/touch.

Agree with this. In fact, I've been saying for years I think he's below average finishing after contact/touch.

Yup, and we saw it just last night actually, Thad's pretty bad at it too it seems

Should've said elite transition player, not elite finisher.

Rich reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 17:34

That's true. He sees stuff in transition that's amazing.

I've had this exact terminology question with Derek before. In my mind, (Overall Finishing) = (Finishing after contact) + (Finishing in traffic) + (Finishing when "open"). Iguodala is well-below average at the first, top 5 in the NBA at the third, and I believe above average at the second (because his athleticism will often allow him to get off a lay-up or a dunk).

In transition, #2 and #3 happen most, and I think he's an elite transition finisher. In the halfcourt, #1 and #2 happen most, so he turns out average or below average.

For those who think #3 is easy, think about the times when Brand, Hawes, and Turner don't finish when open.

johnrosz on Jan 31 at 16:28

He's 20 years old,he's going to have his ups and downs. I think a lot of the recent struggles have to do with hitting a wall (that he should have hit last year if EFJ hadn't glued him to the bench) more so than struggling with different rotations. Doug seems concerned about keeping him fresh, he's probably showing some signs of wearing down.

Shawn reply to johnrosz on Jan 31 at 17:02


Doug seems concerned about keeping him fresh, he's probably showing some signs of wearing down.

Has doug said anything publicly about this - because to me if he hasn't it's utter bollox speculation and BS -

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 17:06

yeah. he's told Jrue to stop lifting for now because he doesn't want him to wear down.

Shawn reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 17:07

here you go:

"I think he's tired," Sixers coach Doug Collins said about Holiday. "I don't think it is as much physical as it is mental, and you have to remember he is playing the toughest position in the NBA, going every night against the best players in the league."


Interesting - it shouldn't be an issue (conditioning) and if he has an issue maybe he should talk to his teammate who until this year played heavy minutes and games since his rookie season.

And 'conditioning' is a lousy explanation for keeping him on the court and not using him in the fourth quarter but to stand in a corner - in fact it makes absolutely no sense

If players don't fit together is it always the case of one player holding another back?

See, that's why I threw in the "(if anyone)"

In the vein of this article, I'd like to apologize for holding certain posters back on this blog. It's purely selfish of me. I'm only out to get mine on a day by day basis. I'm only worried about my stats and my numbers, no one else matters. I'm just a selfish ass not worth my pay rate

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 17:09

you have poor touch around the submit button too

I truly am, for years I've worked at my finishing, and nothing seems to help. I'm also not looking to make my team mates better, or improve my fundamentals, I'm just a combination of the worst parts of Iverson/Iguodala/Dalembert

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 17:10

I can't post between you and Heady's. I'm best when I'm opening up discussion and nobody disagrees with me.

johnrosz on Jan 31 at 17:12


If Curry isn't on the table, I tell GS to go fuck themselves.

Yep, he's the only one on that roster who interests me.

You love David Lee - ADMIT IT

Well, if you want to use the Classic Yankees logic and overpay for mediocre players who killed you when they were on other teams, Dan Gadzuric would be an awesome "get." But only if he'll agree to an extension. I'm not trading Iguodala for a rental.

Admittedly I didn't realize he's still in the league, let alone on the warriors :)

tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 17:20

At the GSW forum at realgm, I here the fan consensus is that expirings + Dorrel Wright would be too high a price for Iguodala.

I love the subjective nature of fans.

Heh. Do you think they have the same type of standards, like "No contracts longer than David Lee's!"

tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 17:32

That's a pretty low standard.

They had to adjust after the Biedrins and Ellis contracts were trumped.

Your assessment of lou is inaccurate. Lou is a good passer and he is also good doesn't turn the ball over excessively. He uses his dribble to set up Brand, young and turner effectively. He does not "prefer" to dribble out the clock w/o involving teammates, that only happens when collins sets up iso's for him at the end of quarters, halfs and games. He is not poor at utilizing screens. defensively he is undersized but also underrated. Sure seems like a lou bashing post to me.

Lou Williams - Gunner whose efficiency is propped up by an impressive FT rate. Relies on quickness to score on isolation moves, seems to prefer to play in isolation and dribble the shot clock down without involving teammates. Not a very good passer. Not very good at using his dribble and quickness advantage to set up teammates. Very poor at utilizing screens (he usually dribbles away from them, instead of setting his man up to get caught on the screen and turn the corner). I do believe Lou is very good at playing off the ball. He might be the second-best catch-and-shoot player on the team, and he's good at finding open spots on the floor to get his shot off. Defensively, he's under-sized and unmotivated, most of the time. When he's on the floor, the entire defensive unit has to focus on compensating for his poor ball pressure skills.

You can read it however you want. These are my observations on Lou. I do think he can be a very effective player off the bench, but PG is a bad role for him. If that's bashing, so be it.

In my opinion, it's not a question of who can play together or of who is holding the other back, it's a question of how good can Jrue and Turner be? The only way to find that out is to put the ball as much as possible in different situations. Can Turner play the "point forward" position? Can Jrue run the team for a complete game? Can Turner become the teams lead scorer? Can Jrue cut down his turnovers? Putting the ball in Iguodalas hands more does not answer these questions.

Thad has proven he's back to where he was pre-Jordan. He has proven with consistent minutes he's going to produce in very effective ways. He's really becoming a solid player playing withou the ball and he's playing tough on the boards.

We have probaly seen the best that Iguodala can be. The popular opinion on this blog was for Iggy to be the off the ball finisher/wing defender he played in The Worlds. Put him in that role and let the younger players show what they can or can't do.

This team will only improve as far as Jrue, Turner and Thad go.

This team will only improve as far as Jrue, Turner and Thad go

Thad doesn't belong in that group - it's insulting to Jrue and Turner in my opinion - Thad is going to another team next season

Insulting? I definetly think Thad is part of this teams future. He still has plenty of upside plus he's only 22. I can still see him improving. besides I don't think it's going to kill money wise you when it's time to resign him.

$10M/year, that's my best guess for Thad. Could be higher. And that is going to kill you.

I think thats a little high. A bench "tweener" who averages 12 ppg and 5rpg? I see 7-8 million per.

It only takes one team who thinks he can start at either position and look at his numbers beyond PPG to get him up to $10M. Honestly, $7-8M for him is going be tough to swallow while you're still trying to add pieces to the puzzle.

His best stat is his FG%. He's very effective in his limited role. You're right. Someone will be willing to overpay for him. In that case it's their gamble.

What does Thaddeus Young bring to the table aside from scoring?

I haven't seen much else

and in his time in philadelphia I haven't seen him improve in anything really.

I think people need to ignore last year for most players - go back to the cheeks/dileo year and compare to that

Last year (exept for Lou - which should tell people something) was pretty much a lost year with the worst coach ever in charge

Tom Moore on Jan 31 at 17:50

More Collins after Monday's practice: "The one thing I’ve tried to do is build relationships with our guys and talk about the truth and why we do things and how we do things. Nothing here is ever personal. Guys here know, at the end of the day, we want to win the game.

"Like yesterday, Mo Speights did a good job but didn’t play in the second half because they went to a small lineup. Thad was playing so great and I needed either Elton or Spencer to play against their big. They basically played four smalls the entire second half.

"The big thing is when you do those things, you communicate with the team. That’s why text-messaging is nice. After the game, I text-messaged Mo and said, ‘Hey, you did a good job yesterday. Matchups dictated what happened in the second half. I’m going to need you against Jersey with Humphries and Petro and Lopez and Favors and their front line.’ "

Thanks, Tom. Good stuff. Still unclear that there's much of a defensive difference between Hawes and Speights, but at least it's an explanation.

I still think the 'big difference' is that they traded for hawes so have to start him - because Speights is better offensively (it's hard to be worse) and defensively he's no worse

Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 18:19

Hawes had four blocks in 17 games prior to getting two Sunday.

I just don't think Collins trusts Speights, especially late in games. Expect to continue to see a lot of Brand at the 5 and Young at the 4 at crunch time.

Yeah, I don't have a problem w/ Brand/Thad, I trust them on both ends more than Hawes and Speights. I would like to see Speights see more minutes outside of crunch time, though.

Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 18:34

Think you'll see it some nights and perhaps not on others.

Speights' defense essentially is trying to draw charges -- though you could argue that's more than Williams does at that end.

mgfields reply to Tom Moore on Jan 31 at 18:44

Anything being said about Noce? Is his hand still hurt or has Turner's improvement resulted in the DNPCD's?

The Big Bitch strikes again

And now, well, we can add ball boys to the growing list of those who despise him. According to Marc Spears of Yahoo Sports, a boy asked KG for his autograph. He responded in kind with, “You got a better chance of catching Bin Laden.” Guyism.com

mgfields on Jan 31 at 18:14

I think (hope?) playing Iguodala playing at point forward can be translated to less Lou at the point down the stretch.

If that's the case, its a good thing in my opinion

Agreed. Better than Lou at the point, but the ideal is getting Jrue comfortable in that position, and that's going to be hard to do if you avoid it like the plague.

Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 18:23

Maybe Collins is trying to send a message to Holiday about cutting down fourth-quarter turnovers and leaving his feet with the ball, which they've been working on getting him to stop doing.

I remember maybe five years ago when Iverson was unhappy that Cheeks planned to have Iguodala initiate the offense more because Iguodala wasn't getting many touches with Iverson as the primary ball-handler.

Iguodala also has the NBA's sixth-best assist-to-turnover ratio (3.18-to-1).

When do you suppose Collins will start teaching Lou lessons about playing defense worse than a bull fighter - or his poor shot selection - or inability to handle a double team

My problem is that Collins seems to have a double standard as to who gets taught lessons (for instance, recently, aside from one game where he sat him to start the third, Hawes doesn't get taught many lessons)

Well, there could be an explanation for the selective teaching. Jrue is the future, Lou isn't. Speights will be here beyond next season, Hawes will not. I don't have a problem with limiting the teaching to the important players, as long as they realize why they're being disciplined and other guys aren't, which is tough to communicate, I would think.

The other explanation is that Collins' main concern is limiting turnovers, especially late in the game.

Problem with selective teaching (and as a former teacher, I used to do it, and as a student I was a victim of it for a variety of reasons) is that it alienates students, rightly or wrongly, it creates division. It's not that hard to coach everyone the same Doug.

Though Dougs history is that he's harder on rookies isn't it?

Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 18:43

Well said, Brian.

johnrosz on Jan 31 at 18:48

would we need to put Magee on suicide watch if Monta Ellis came here in an Iguodala deal?

I'm going to politely ask you once to stop referring to me that way - i find it kind of insulting. If you don't know me well enough to know my first name, you really don't know me well enough to use my name at all - there's a screen name - use it.

Ellis has been better supposedly this year, but I don't buy it - Not sure I'd be on suicide watch but I'd be on the look out for a team better run than the sixers since at that point i'm thinking 28 of them (the clippers not withstanding) look better run

bebopdeluxe reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 19:23

Hey...do I get grandfathered the use of jem?

Never really minded that, but I find it insulting when people refer to people by their last names in general, I just think it's a derogatory way to address people unless you're my drill seargent (and i'm a pacifist anyway)

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 19:37

so calling me and other posters douchebags, idiots, and the like...completely alright.

calling you by your last name...insulting?

you are an interesting character

Look - i get that you wanna be accepted by the cool kids - but they aren't going to like you just cause you hate me

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 20:18

fail to see how calling you out on your hypocrisy has anything to do with my ego

As always, you miss the original point, which shouldn't surprise me

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 20:50

We're talking about my original point. You are being unreasonable. if you'd like someone to address you by a certain name, don't go to your laundry list of insults any time a particular poster disagrees with your seemingly infallible opinions.

You can't be hyper sensitive about someone calling you Magee, while routinely name calling everybody other than Brian.

How is this not making sense to you?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 20:48

What don't you buy about Ellis's improved stats?

Sustainability - and that's he's all that 'good' for his salary (Lou Williams, higher WS/48 this year)

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 21:00

Gee, this isn't even his best year or anything. He was way better than this 3 years ago.

3 years ago he had an unreal eFG% that probably won't be seen by him again

and his offensive rating ws higher than his defensive rating
(which has never happened before)

though his assist rate is rising steadily (however you want to interpret it) but his defensive rebounding is trending down

I think its' more likely this is monta ellis than 3 years ago

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 21:08

But you don't even think this is Monta Ellis. You think that neither 2007 Ellis nor 2010 Ellis is the real Ellis; you just want to pick on 2009 Ellis. When he was playing on a disastrously miscoached team, with all these D-Leaguers.

Funny you want to accuse someone of cherry picking when you go to the outlier (based on the rest of his career) as the year that's the indicator of his future.

His best WS/48 before this year was 06/07

I don't care what your excuses are for him but even this year he's 'no better' OVER ALL than Louis Williams

He just makes a lot more money

Monta Ellis is a good louis williams clone who is grossly over paid

Trading for him when you have a cheaper more productive version for him is an asinine idea and people thinking he has good value is just an example of how antiquated (to me) the thinking is of some people.

Monta Ellis is having this wonderful year to you but Louis Williams is producing better than he is.

What does that say about the contract Monta has?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 21:30

I don't want to trade for Monta, I just think he's way better than Lou, that's all. For one thing, you don't hear Warriors fans complaining that giving the ball to Monta at the ends of games is insane, because he's actually really good at that sort of thing. Monta, I believe, is a far more talented player and if Lou tried to carry his scoring burden his efficiency would drop to Arenas-like levels.

Hmmm....your logic, per usual, has none. You don't deal with facts at all, it's fascinating.

Who cares what the fans think.

Monta gets the ball because on the Warriors there are no better options.

Lou Williams gets the ball because the coach is an idiot who thinks there are no better options.

The numbers dispute your assertion that monta is 'much better' than lou so you look for arguments like what the fans whine about to support your premise.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 21:00

How does Jodie Meeks have a better WS/48 than Jrue?

Tray reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 21:03

Very good question.

Limited shots, limited turnovers, does more with his shots.

Limited minutes outside his runs with the first team? (I'm guessing) Making his defensive numbers look better than they are.

Then again, the sixers so far have the best bench in a bunch of categories in the game :)

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 21:31

Yet, Meeks is lousy. So let's stop giving so much deference to WS/48.

You remind me of the people dismissing the 'clutch' stats because they disprove the perception that kobe is the clutchest in the world, it's not possible that the perception is wrong, it HAS to be the stats...this kind of thinking allowed Billy Beane to field a quality team on a limited budget before everyone caught up with him.

It's that kind of thinking that keeps malcolm galdwell and the freakonomics folks churning out very interesting people.

Only Sheep have a monolithic perception that is unchangeable when presented with evidence to the contrary

Only Sheep look for one number to define everything in a sport as complicated as basketball.

Tom Moore on Jan 31 at 18:57

Regarding San Jose Mercury News report in which a Golden State team source claims “Andre Iguodala has been on the radar of the Warriors for a while,” the Sixers and Warriors apparently haven't had any significant talks about a possible trade.

And when Sam was traded to Sacramento did they have a lot of public comment about the talks?

Or when they got Chris Webber did anyone know it was about to happen?

The sixers don't do a lot of things well - but keeping trade talk out of the media is a strong suit.

Tom Moore reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 19:17

What do the Warriors have that the Sixers would want? With the uncertainty due to the expiring CBA and likelihood the salary cap could decrease significantly, expiring contracts aren't as eniticing as in the past.

bebopdeluxe reply to Tom Moore on Jan 31 at 19:25

Well...I sure would want Curry - and would probably have to take a guy like Biedrins (and that contract) to make it work.

I would rather see TONS of J/T/I...but if they are fixed on moving Iggy, I could see the logic behind Curry.

The sudden fixation on tons of JTI reminds me a little of Kahn's fascination with collecting small forwards.

I thought Kahn was obsessed with obtaining point guards

bebopdeluxe reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 21:11


Tray reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 21:27

Well let's see. Right now, he has Brewer, Webster, Beasley, Wes Johnson, Lazar Hayward. Last year he had Cardinal and Pavlovic.

Since Comcast is more worried about the bottom line than building a championship contending team - nothing

But if they were smart - they'd see if they could get curry - take on a longer contract (biedrinds) and thus improve their core.

"And when Sam was traded to Sacramento did they have a lot of public comment about the talks?"

Actually, yes. The interest was well reported at the trade deadline last year.

WEll there you go

They publicly spoke about one trade that went down so they're blabber mouths?

In general it seems that the sixers keep trade talks quiet (and the sam stuff was public - i mean they were talking bout trading him for 18 months ;)

Looking at the rotational data, there hasn't been as much JTI as I've suspected with the naked eye over the past couple of games when Turner has picked up his play. I still am not sure why.

Another thing I'm not sure gets brought up enough is how steady Elton Brand has been this year. Obviously not what he's paid for, but he's been excellent.

My rotational data doesn't include the past two games

And Iguodala was hurt.

I'm thinking of doing it in 10 game chucnks or month by month or something. It's needs to be cleaner

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jan 31 at 19:35

I'm just looking at the rotation charts Brian puts up. Iguodala being hurt is one thing (though he's been back 10 games and looks pretty darn good), but he doesn't play as much with Turner and Jrue as I thought. Frustrating.

Here you go, this should help.


Since Iguodala came back, 45:40 with JTI at the 1, 2, 3. +15 in those minutes, 97-82 they outscored the opponent.

They also played 19:13 with Jrue at the point, Turner at the three and Iguodala at the four. -17 with that lineup, outscored 35-52, which is just horrible.

Prior to Iguodala's injury, JTI at the 1,2,3, 152:27 minutes, -34, 273-307.

JTI at 1,3,4, 13:12, -6, 27-33.

So much better w/ those guys at the 1,2,3 since Iguodala's return. The small lineup with Turner at the three and Iguodala at the four has been terrible all year.

I think the reason why the JTI lineup at the 1,3,4 is horrible is because they are used in clutch situations only and the Sixers have been horrible in those situations anyway.

The only instance where I think that anybody is being "held back" would be Lou getting the major of isolations over Turner. Turner excelled with the ball in his hands at OSU, truthfully, he hasn't earned those opportunities yet. In the same vein, Jrue hasn't shown enough poise at the end of games to take those opportunites either.

I don't mind Lou getting isolation opportunites, but what I don't like is when he's allowed to waste multiple, consecutive possessions where no one else touches the ball. I'd like to see an attempt at executing a play, and the ball going to Lou with 6-7 seconds left on the 24 to make something happen.

IMO, they waste too many possessions by having the ball in his hands too early. He's shown the most consistent ability to get into the paint and or create shot opportunities by himself, but he needs to be protected from himself by limiting his touches and early (in the shot clock) opportunities.

Looking at the entire roster... what is your best guess for which current Sixers will still be on the roster by March 2013 ( 2 years from now and after the traded deadline)?

For reference, that is 2 months befoer Brand and Lou's contracts expire and Iguodala can opt out (player option.) It is the year after Speights is a RFA. Of the remainder of the roster, only Holiday, Turner and Brackins would be under contract past the end of that Season.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 20:17


Jrue 90%
Turner 70% (would not be shocked if he is part of a major trade)
Lou 60%
Thad 50%
Brand 40% (but about to expire)
Iguodala 30%
Meeks: 30% (might extend here for cheap
Brakins 25% (I think he gets traded, but he is Thorn's guy)
Speights 20% (if no one else wants him as a RFA)
Hawes: 5%
Noce 5%
Songalia, Battie: 0%

Tray reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 20:45

You think Brackins is in the league in 2013?

tk76 reply to Tray on Jan 31 at 20:48

He'll still be on his 1st round rookie deal (just like Turner), so absolutely.

BTW, Thorn said in an unrelated interview that he tried to trade up to get Brackins (as NJ GM.)

Tray reply to tk76 on Jan 31 at 20:49

Oh wow, first round. I assumed a guy of his dubious talents was a second rounder.

tk76 reply to Tray on Jan 31 at 20:53

21st overall I believe. But some people though he was a reach. But all it takes is 1 team...

I'll say Jrue 75% (I think Thorn may try to make a major move, and there are a couple of superstar point guards who will probably become available in the next 18-24 months, I could see Jrue being included in a package for one of them).

Turner: 70%

Iguodala: 50%

Brand: 50%

Thad: 40% (I think it's worse than 50/50 that they extend him this summer)

Brackins: 60%, he'll still be cheap, no harm no foul.

Meeks: 30%

Hawes: 0%

Nocioni: 0%
Songaila: 0%
Battie: 0%
Lou: 15%. I think Lou might be the first guy moved, to be honest.

You think Thorn will trade away Collins's favorite player? Collins loves Lou and his scoring, he can do no wrong in this coach's eyes. Believe me I wouldn't mind seeing Lou moved tomorrow, but if Collins has any veto power at all you think he'd use it on Lou. "Who am I gonna run iso plays for? C'Mon Now!"

He would have to find another assassin.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 20:56

So if my math is right, that means you think J/T/I has a 27% chance of being in effect 2+ years from now.

26.25%, right?

That's what I got.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jan 31 at 21:56

Except I was guesstimating :)

Here's a stat: The 3.0 points per game separating the Sixers' top scorer (Elton Brand) from No. 5 (Thad Young) isn't the lowest total in the league. The Pistons have 2.8 ppg from Nos. 1-5.

Not a 'blockbuster' trade I know - but a trade that I believe makes the sixers better on the floor this season without costing them much - plus (minor thing) it gives them Przy's rights in free agency doesn't it? I know he's injury prone - but he's tall and people pay for tall

This sounds like a good idea. No, a great idea. I vigorously support anything that results in my eyes seeing significantly less spencer. I wonder if Collins would start Pryzbilla over the garbage stiff tho? You can never tell with that guy.

I would hope he would start him - I mean given the choice - Przy is the better option. FOr his career he's been a back up but he's still better than Hawes right now - and he expires this year so it's no long term investment - the blazers get a young big back (which honestly - what the hell else can they expect for this guy)

To me giving up Speights sucks, but it's not a huge bummer and Przy solidifies your front court a bit if you want to TRY and make playoff noise.

It's not a deal I advocate in general but if the sixers are committed to the 'we can make the playoffs so Iguodala is OFF the table' thing - at least improve the roster he has to play with.

Personally, I'd add Rip Hamilton as well

I'd do Nocioni and Williams (or Kapono if they wanted a bigger salary dump) for Hamilton and Wallace.

My deals were made so as not to hurt anything that the sixers have been doing successfullly this year - the only 'major' piece given up in my two deals was Speights.

I'm not sure he's an upgrade at this point in his career but if Brand and Iguodala ain't going anywhere you slide Rip into meeks spot and you slide Przy into Hawes spot and only lose one player who even is part of things right now

johnrosz on Jan 31 at 21:32

37 pts on 22 shots for melo, 9 rebounds tonight. Gotta give Iguodala credit, one hell of a defender

and a loss :)

I've seen it speculated here that Thad will get an offer of $10M per, do people really see him being offered more than Paul Millsap was as a RFA?

tk76 reply to CM on Jan 31 at 21:58

I've read he wants 10M. That is not to say any one will offer it.

I thought he wanted $12M. Anyway, there are some dumb teams out there w/ cap space (depending on the CBA). I could see someone making an offer. Then again, teams are really hesitant to make offers to RFA's. Portland did it for Millsap and then Wes Matthews. Memphis made an offer to Josh Smith. The Bulls made an offer to Redick this past season. Dallas made an offer to Gortat. All of those were matched except for Wes Matthews. Then you had David Lee who didn't get an offer, even though the knicks almost certainly wouldn't have matched. Who knows.

There was a limit to how much Millsap could be offered, because he was a second round pick and reached free agency after his second second season. There max for Thad is much higher (see Rudy Gay's contract last summer).

The difference between Millsap and Thad isn't really that great. Millsap's rebounding is better, but not dramatically so. His rebounding has actually regressed quite a bit since he signed his contract.

Tom Moore on Feb 1 at 0:04

Forgot to add this quote from Sunday's postgame by Turner about entering the game late in the first quarter: "When I checked in, he (Chauncey Billups) had 16 points. At that time, you just want to make sure he doesn't hit 80."

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