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How Will It Play Out?

Brian I'm definitely looking forward to the in-depth analysis of who's running the point and the results. Lou is the last of these four players that I want initiating the offense.

Yeah, I don't really know what it means to make Iguodala a point forward. Does that mean actually having him dribble the ball up the floor? (I doubt that, Jrue will still do it) Does it mean he'll get it at the top of the floor as soon as Jrue crosses over? Who knows. To me a point forward is a guy like Lamar Odom, who kind of uses his size and smarts to slowly evaluate the defense. This is more necessary when your point guard is Derek Fisher, and we don't have that problem. Iguodala doesn't seem like a prototypical point forward, more just a playmaking wing.

A big thing I've noticed with Turner and Jrue is that sometimes they initiate the offense, but really have little choice. This happens when they run a guy (mostly Lou) off screens and they are basically just waiting for him to get free so they can throw him the ball and he can make a play. I think that is what they should do for Iguodala from time to time so he can catch the ball with his defender moving and try to beat him off the dribble. Anyway, when the two young guys do this, the term initiating offense is kind of a hollow term.

I also doubt this will take a huge chunk of Lou's offensive freedom. They play with two different units for a lot of the game.

Yup, Collins is now a mad scientist. So here's a crazy idea for him. How about putting the ball in Jrue's hands whenever he's on the court and let him make plays like we know he can. The offense is fine when he's running the show. Let Iguodala do what he normally does, he's having a very good season as is. Instead maybe the Sixers should focus on figuring out how they plan on defending the interior in matchups against the better teams. That will be the bigger problem later on if they're trying to win playoff games.


WHile collins may be a mad scientist - with that quintet - yo ain't defending the interior on teams that have quality (even average - see Memphis) Big men. That's kind of a lost cause.

I agree with that, which is why I think if Collins really wants to win he should first be working with Thorn deciding who on the roster is expendable in trading for a defensive upgrade in the middle. As opposed to worrying about changing an offense that seems to be doing well enough to win games. The whole Jrue thing to me is just another example of Collins saying one thing and doing another. Early in the season it was Jrue is going to be a top PG. Now it's like we can't really have Jrue playing the point as much, we need other guys to do it.

So you want comcast to spend more money this season?

You're funny :)

Lol nah I assume they could make a deal that would still keep them under the luxury tax. I don't have any delusional ideas they would go over it! :)

So for the hell of it i just did a quick google search 'sixers sign 10 day contract'

This is the FIRST link that came up


4 years ago, is it possible the sixers haven't even used a 10 day contract in close to 4 years?

I believe it. Anything is possible with this team except for making a trade or a signing that will put them over the tax. How is it possible they still think Hawes is the best option? And yet there he is in the starting lineup every single game, with fail.

I'm told Doug Collins is a great coach

They must be referring to the fact that he knows how to take a subpar team and get them to play close to .500 basketball. But I believe his career playoff record is like 15-23, so that is not nearly great for the amount of time he was in the league. Maybe average to slightly above average at best. Other people think he's great because he has great passion and cares so much about every game, but really how do they quantify that? It's just that people like his personality or the way he talks or something.

It's the kind of 'argument' people use when the facts and the numbers don't back up their assertions.

I have a theory on the doug collins love but I haven't really dug into it and seen if it bears out.

I like the part where it says he tends to burn teams out in 3 years...that's awesome

I actually think Lou is pretty effective off the ball. he hits spot up jumpers and can drive when there is a lane. He is a much better SG than Jrue right now. And Jrue is a much better PG. As for Iguodala initiating plays- I don't think he is well suited, but I guess we will see.

Iguodala has a reasonably good handle and has good vision. But in the past his initiation of the offense has basically meant making a pass to another wing. He's also been a bit slow at getting the team into offense, and initiates too far outside the 3pt line. I have not seen him run effectively off of picks or break don his man (except in end of qtr iso's.) But maybe Collins will change this, and we'll see his game blossom.

Collins mentions Grant Hill, and that is the gold standard right now for point forward offense.

So I'd rather stick with Jrue, keep Lou only as a SG and leave Iguodala in his current role. But my main concern is Lou's role. Not Iguodala or Jrue.

Old School Sixer Fan on Feb 2 at 9:46

How many teams use multiple players to initiate offense? Does having three players who might be expected to initiate offense on any particular possession create an advantage for the Sixers in the half court? Collins thought it would, because as he said most SF's don't have the skills to defend like the quicker point guards do. They are used to mostly tracking a man w/o the ball. This may fall into the classification of "if you have an advantage, use it."

Story: Holiday, Iguodala welcome change:


jsmoove on Feb 2 at 10:49

Too much is being made of this as Collins said in the clip. Iguodala has been initiating offense ala "point forward" role for most of the year. He was given the ball for most of the end of the fourth quarter against Boston. If I remember correctly, he also had it several times in the last quarter against Washington. There are many other games where he brings the ball up or receives it at halfcourt at different times in the game. Whether Collins is showing he doesn't trust Jrue fully or not, or just taking advantage of the versatitily of his pieces by creating advantages for the offense, this isn't anything newfound, it's been happening since back in november and december. You could try and analyze it tonight or in the future but it's going to probably look much the same as it has the entire year. Collins made a good point that 3-men aren't accustomed to having to react to a screen and roll so it seems like his strategizing has a method to its' madness. As much of a primary ball-handler role that Jrue plays for the majority of the game, I'd see this in no way as him being marginalized. Just a coach choosing to play a different chess piece, at different points and times within the game.

Then why was there a need to say anything then at all? Too much is being made of it because whether or not it's been happening this season (or many seasons) COLLINS made it an issue by commenting on it publicly and indicating that more of it would be seen than is already seen.

The Coach publicly stated it, in a season where he's already margianlizing his 'top 5 point guard of the future' in the fourth quarter, he publicly indicates that something that's standard practice will be used more and marginalize Jrue away from being a point guard even more.

Why is it a big deal? Cause it's another move that indicates to some that Collins can't think past his own W-L record to determine what's best for the long term success of the sixers, not just making the playoffs this season but developing the important parts for the future (Jrue and Evan)

Tray reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 11:26

Maybe it's good for a team to win games? You know, creates a winning vibe, makes players feel like the team's headed in the right direction?

What's more important Tray - the difference between losing to Boston or Miami/Chicago in the first round this season or developing Jrue and Evan sooner rather than later?

As for your obnoxiously ridiculous platitudes that are tired and worn out...it's great if you tell Jrue - yes jrue, stay in the corner, and wait for the ball, we don't really need you to run the offense to win.

That's an awesome 'feeling' to hand out to the players isn't it?

Don't worry Jrue, it's more important that Lou handles the ball then we develop your ability to succeed in the fourth quarter, cause while you stand in the corner you can cheer lead, who cares if we stifle and delay your development, I mean we only said you could be a top 5 point guard in the off season - why bother paying attention to that, it's more important that my over all W-L record improves than you develop.

I didn't say lose on purpose you neophyte - I said there are a few things more important than making the playoffs this year and NOTHING is more important to the future success of this franchise than developing a great point guard in a league that is becoming point guard centric.

Losing in the first round and hindering jrues development is not 'heading in the right direction' you jackalope - you wanna become a free agent destination - you better have great or ascendant players for guys to want to play with because Philadelphia has crappy ass weather, crappy ass fans, no tax benefits, and a shitty night life.

Just from his comments in the past, I'm pretty sure Tray was being sarcastic. Either way, it's not this black and white, and we don't know it's going to manifest itself until we see a couple of games.

Well with Tray, I can never tell, I wasn't aware sarcasm was in his bailiwick

OldSchoolFan reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:53

I normally enjoy reading and posting here, but your personal attacks and criticisms really turn me off.

I also saw and heard the videos with the three affected people. Jrue seemed fine with having some pressure removed from him. Jrue knows he is struggling in end-game situations. He seems to understand what he needs to improve. They all want to win. They aren't stupid. They know what combinations give them the best chance to win. He'll pick it up without the need to lose 3-4 more games. Full immersion is not the only learning method.

I normally enjoy reading and posting here, but your personal attacks and criticisms really turn me off.

Are you as bothered when I'm personally attacked, or just when i do it to other people.

Yeah, I watched those interviews too - BFD - Jrue said all the right things (though confusing the olympics and the worlds is just weird)...I wouldn't expect him to say anything else regardless of how he feels about it...I know everyone here thinks they can read body language and attitude and that's a source of primary hate for Iguodala.

For you, and everyone else, just in case the message hadn't been received, what you think about me really doesn't bother me one way or another, only thing that bothers me on a blog is stupidity and ignorance

Most of the people who attack me personally ar usually full of both

OldSchoolFan reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 13:20

Are you as bothered when I'm personally attacked, or just when i do it to other people.

I'm bothered by all personal attacks. I have no problem with people's ideas being questioned, but there is nothing to be gained by personal attacks.

I ofetn agree with your points. In this case I don't agree. I hope that eventually Even Turner will be the "go-to guy" that everyone expects will take the big shot. But does it make sense to have him start now? He's not comfortable, nor is he shooting well. To have him assume that role now could easily do more harm than good. The same is true for Jrue. Sending him out there every time is not necessarily the best way for him to learn. Yes, there are some people who might learn best that way, but give the coach some credit. Maybe he knows his players.

Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:14

To me, winning builds confidence and pride. Confidence and pride aid development. Anyone who thinks Jrue missing out on a couple possessions a game is going to somehow skew his development or limit who he becomes is not looking at the picture correctly.

Whether this "move" will equal up to more wins is yet to be seen. Whether this "move" is even going to be noticeable in game or the box score is something yet to be seen.

A first round ass kicking would be well enough to me. Fans that think its championship or nothing should start playing the lottery and quit their jobs. Appreciate the basketball you have, let the man who has gotten us to the point we are this year try and do his job, and hope for better days as well. Relax, jerk.

And anyone who thinks this is just a 'few' possessions is not watching the sixers games properly anyway.

This is on top of the asinine use of Lou in the fourth quarter, so Jrue was already being marginalized, this is just further marginalization.

As for your winning pride platitudes, I think confidence from your coach that you can perform builds a lot more self confidence than a coach who thinks when the game is on the line you shouldn't touch the ball (and you're the point guard)

I'm glad a first round ass kicking is good enough for you and I'm also glad you have no clue how to read what people said.

I never said championship or bust, what I said is building towards contending, depending on Lou and marginalizing Jrue are not positive steps towards maximizing the talent o the roster.

But as long as fans like you who would rather get your asses kicked in the first round then develop the future exist, Comcast will be extremely happy.

Maybe this year they'll sell out a home playoff game...doubt it, but maybe

Cin reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 11:27

Should Holiday recieve the Hawes treatment and not have his ball handling reduced due to his TO%? Should A.I. not be rewarded for his A/T ratio that is sixth best in the league and a career best? Keep in mind, as it stands, A.I. is part of our future for 3-4 more years that should all be in his prime regardless of role.

So now Jrue and Hawes are in the same boat.

That's ridiculous.

Jrue Holiday is a point guard - point guards run offenses - the coach said he could be a top 5 point guard. Point guards go through growing pains and mistakes - if you don't allow them to push through the errors they won't learn - if you shove him in the corner or pull him out every time he makes a mistake - all that does is make him more likely to play tighter.

He's still one of the youngest players in the league (Hawes isn't) he still has a lot of upside (Hawes dosn't) and he's the future of this franchise (Hawes isn't)

Lumping him together with Hawes is just ridiculous.

As for the Iguodala thing - maybe his A:T ratio is so high because he's only initiating the offense in limited situations that optimize his strengths. Increasing his workload will most likely decrease his A:T ratio.

And if we're 'rewarding' good A:T ratios - maybe Evan should be the one initiating the offense?

Taking the ball out of Jrue's hands more is short sighted and myopic and an idioitic move by a coach who has made a series of idiotic moves regarding the most important thing to this franchises future right now.


raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:00


And you give people crap for not having any patience with Turner. How about giving Doug (and consequently Jrue) some time to figure things out? The funny things is, we've yet to see a game with our new 'point forward' and some of us are already crying about it.

The real problem is having Lou close out games. Having Iguodala and Jrue split ball handling duties for 75% of the game is not a problem IMO.


I've been anti doug from the moment he was hired, didn't like the hire, still don't like the hire, not impressed that he can improve upon last year. SF1976 could have coached this team to a better performance than Eddie Jordan.

I don't have patience with Doug's treatment of Jrue because history indicates a pattern

Anything that hinders the development of Jrue Holiday to win an extra game or two this season is a problem...period

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:04

Can you expand on the history you're referring to?

CM reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 16:02

You link an article that's over 2 years old, refers to his fit with a completely different roster, and whose 1st 2 points are completely different than he has managed this roster, this year?

Are they playing at nearly the slowest pace in the league? Who are the young players that are being cost opportunities in favor of veterans?

The 3rd point is speculative and pretty much irrelevent b/c he's not replacing a coach with a similar style. What the average lifespan of a coach in the NBA with one team?

Did you even read the article?

Yup, read the article.

Why did I link to that article that is two years old? Cause it's the first one I found that had anything to say about how collins deals with rookies.

A. The sixers don't matter to the media that much
B. THe Bulls was the last real job he was up for
C. He was out of coaching for years.

There were not great articles about how hiring Collins was turning the sixers around nationally or how Collins would deal with the roster cause the national media doesn't care about the sixers. The article from ESPN was the most current one I found. I'm sorry if it's not current enough for you - take it up with the national media

raro reply to raro on Feb 2 at 12:06

Actually I think I know what you're talking about. Getting the hook for being careless with the ball right?

It's not just this year, like I said, I was anti collins when he was hired

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:29

There's a reason for that. Few coaches in recent history have trusted young players less than Collins has. Obviously, there's the infamous Kwame Brown saga, but his obvious discomfort with any young player who isn't an immediate star goes well beyond that.

Collins was particularly over the top in this respect in his most recent tenure, in Washington, and not just with Brown. While 22-year-old Bobby Simmons sat at the end of the bench for two years, 32-year-old Bryon Russell played and was horribly ineffective. While 25-year-old Brian Cardinal sat, 39-year-old Charles Oakley got plenty of time to prove how washed up he was. While 22-year-old Brendan Haywood sat, 32-year-old Popeye Jones played. You get the picture.

Couple of things:

1. Having read Halberstam's Playing for Keeps, my view on Doug's track record with younger players is different. According to the author, his development of the Bulls' two rookies in 87 (Pippen and Horace Grant) proved to be the difference maker for the first Bulls dynasty. Neither player started (Grant started 6 games) their rookie year, but both were given decent playing time (>1500 minutes).

2. The examples mentioned by Hollinger aren't that great. Why should he be blamed for the failure of Kwame Brown? The guys was a stiff then and still is. Benching Bobby Simmons? For shame. Oh, and Brian Cardinal. If only he had gotten more playing time.

3. Doug really like Jrue, and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. Unless you can find reports of Doug speaking similarly of Kwame Brown or Bobby Simmons, you have no 'history' to state otherwise.

4. Minutes Played. Unlike Simmons and Cardinal, Jrue and Evan are still on the court. Our "veterans'" minutes have steadily gone down so it's not they're riding the pine.

Doug really likes Jrue huh?

I can tell how much he likes him when Lou Williams is initiating the offense most of the time they're on the floor together. It's a good sign of affection and trust in your point guard when you make someone who isn't a point guard, or a good passer your point guard instead of the future top 5 point guard when they're on the floor at the same time.

There's what people say - and there's what people do.

When what they do contradicts what they say I tend to think what they do is an indicator of their true feelings.

What I think is that Doug Collins feels that Lou Williams being the point guard is more important than Jrue Holiday being the point guard, because that's what happens when they're both on the floor.

I like being dependent on Louis Williams, cause I know Louis Williams is the guy who is going to be most important if this team ever contends for a title again.

Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:46

Although I'm not a fan of it, he doesn't put Lou in as a "PG", he puts him in there to isolate and score the ball. He does it "inefficiently", but he does it.

I agree with you on this topic as most do. I'd rather see team basketball played at the end of games. Whether it is Iguodala or Jrue or Evan initiating it is irrelevant to me, as long as it isn't Lou and it gets a W.

It's a marathon not a sprint. Jrue taking a back seat to a player that right now is more valuable and talented on the roster, isn't going to keep him from being a great player.

It's not just at the end of games that lou is the one initiating the offense - it's just more noticeable at the end of the games.

When Lou and Jrue are in the game, watch who has the ball in their hands more.

Marathon, sprint, whatever nonsense metaphor you want to use to justify it - Collins is hindering the development of Jrue Holiday in my opinion, and no one has presented any real arguments or evidence that say otherwise, just platitudes

Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:56

It is all just opinion on here, your insight is no more relevant or factual than anyone else's.

Time will tell. Hindsight will be the only way to measure. Right now Doug has this team overachieving, and I can nit pick his decisions all day and drive myself as insane as your comments come off when you disagree with people, but I am just going to enjoy some mediocre basketball and see what happens.

Right now Doug has this team overachieving,

36 win pace is over achieving?

35, 40, 41

Those are the wins that the sixers had in the 3 seasons before Eddie Jordan

Were Mo Cheeks and Tony DiLeo over achieving?

I'm just curios as to your OPINION based on the facts.

And I'm not sure where I said my opinion was more important or valuable than anyone elses. I vehemently disagree with any opinion that is based in platitudes and idiotic memes like 'everyone else is doing it - so it's ok'

I was taught to question things I felt were based in crap - sorry if it hurts peoples feelings - but on the plus side - I never really care if i hurt people feelings - if you're feelings are hurt by someone on the internet - you have deeper issues and problems you should think about.

The internet doesn't matter - so why does whether or not i agree or respect your opinion matter?

Those 35,40,41 win teams were much much different from this team from a personnel standpoint (Iguodala, Lou and partly Young are the only remaining members). That makes them unusable for comparison. Also those teams had capable veterans such as Miller and Dalambert and useful role players such as Rattlif, Marshall, Korver etc.

This team while it has a higher ceiling is made of almost exclusively young players. Very rarely does a team as young as these Sixers play this well.

Oh - I get it

But last years team, which was different and had one of the worst coaches in the history of the NBA who had no clue how to use the talent on his roster - that's an equal comparison with a coach with a modicum of common sense?


I'm not saying that we should compare this team to last years either (even though it's a better comparison than the other ones). That's the thing with the NBA there is no could've been/should've been. The only way you can possibly asses a teams relative success is by comparing it to the public perception before the season began. Back than the Sixers were projected to win around 30 games. And that's with the added bonus of presumed better coaching.

Additionally it's really funny how you laugh at fans who use simple stats like PPG, and than you always bring the winning pace measured only by cyrrent record up (36 at the moment). Every advanced way of measuring "winning pace" has the Sixers around 40 wins (important aspects are strength of schedule, point differential, home vs road games etc.). That's pretty good for a young team by any standards.

8-15 against above 500 teams
13-11 below 500 teams

SOS in the last 25% of their games - .486 (and it's even worse when when you look at the last 10 home and last 10 away, i forget which one is pretty pathetic, one of em is sub 400)

They pretty much have as many home games as away games left - they suck on the road

And their SOS for the season is still sub 500 (.491)

You wanna run the win expectations - go right ahead

Not sure why I should believe they'll achieve 500 when half (approximately) their remaining games are on the road and they're still a lousy road team

OK, so that's basically looking at the stats without digging deeper and understanding their meaning.

1) Considering the Sixers are in the eastern conference the Sixers will finish with a sub .500 strength of schedule. Their remaining schedule is actually easier.
2) Their point differential is that of a winning team.
3) It's interesting how you point out that they are 8-15 against .500+ teams. That actually means they are much much better than their record. Examples: New York 8-13, Orlando 8-14, Miami 9-12. Even the mighty Lakers are a miserable 9-9 vs .500+ teams.
4) They are not as bad on the road as people think. They are 5-9 over the last 14 games, after they made the lineup change. They are also a terrific home team 13-4 over that stretch.

Nope - actually it's just looking at the alimghty hollinger stats without having the time to look deeper - or caring to...you can look at the ways you want - the sixers aren't a 500 teams if they can't win on the road at a better than .333 clip.

It's a matter for debate whether they have more or less talent now than they did in those 40 and 41 win seasons. It's not debatable that they have significantly younger talent now, so to say this team is overachieving isn't out of line. And harping on the 36-win pace is kind of hollow when you don't even mention the 3-13 start, or 18-13 play since.

they're not as bad as 3-13 and they aren't as good as 18-13 - they're mediocre - 500 at best if they're lucky.

Especially after that 4th quarter debacle against Memphis...that just brings back into focus that they're mediocre...I don't see anything yet this season that gets me excited for the future of this franchise with Doug Collins at the helm.

The 4th quarter debacle in Memphis meaning that it showed how far they haven't come and how much Collins still has to show ME as a guy who knows how to coach this roster properly.

Good teams don't lose that game.

Mediocre teams do...though mediocre seems ok to some people cause losing in the first round of the playoffs as the best that can happen seems acceptable - which is fine...I prefer to be able to see a team and franchise building towards a bit more.

Hiring collins to me wasn't about building to more than returning to those first round losses of the two previous seasons under Jordan.

Trading Dalembert reinforced that (to me) ownership wasn't concerned with the roster and future as much as their salary position in the short term...

Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 14:06

Feelings aren't hurt. I'm just a staunch supporter of respecting people, and dislike the opposite. You normally have fair insight but you treat people poorly too often. You have a shit attitude and no grasp of how to interact with others. I just don't like you, and I'm sure that would stand true in person as well.

Overachieving? I would say that is accurate. Early predictions and projections from 'experts", this blog, and the fan base had this team far from where they are, and as Brian pointed out they've evolved significantly in the past two months. They have no one you could consider a strong defensive player in the front court, or a "superstar" anywhere, and are very young at 3 positions. A mismatch of players, with hardly any complimentary shooting, and they were flat out awful last year. They're winning completely off of effort most nights. That to me is overachieving, and I think Collins ability to motivate and have the players prepared nightly is definitely a contributing factor.

I respect people who earn my respect. I don't respect most people without knowing them because in my experience very few people are worthy of respect. We live in a country that's getting dumber constantly, where being ignorant and getting along is more important than intelligence...and in my 39 years, the majority of people I've met aren't worthy of my respect. I respect a lot of people, I respect some people who post here...because their opinions have shown me they are worthy of my respect.

Whether or not you like me doesn't really matter, it doesn't hurt my feelings, it doesn't make me rethink the way I live my life. I actually have a great grasp of how to interact with people, but you're one of those people who thinks that the internet matters so how I behave is an indicator of how I behave all the time, and that's great, but if we met in public and you didn't know who I was, you'd never guess I ws the same person...but thanks for yet another incorrect armchair psychological evaluation of my sigmund.

jsmoove reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 14:52

You state this as if you possess no ignorance or no people skills (getting along), but all intelligence? But then state that some who post here have "earned" your respect because of "opinions" on basketball? Yeah, that passes the intelligence test. Agreeable opinions = respect

Do you have anything original to add that isn't about insulting me - or being totally wrong about how to read what I say or your 'insights' into my personality that (per usual) are entirely and totally wrong?

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:59

Collins is hindering the development of Jrue Holiday in my opinion, and no one has presented any real arguments or evidence that say otherwise, just platitudes

I love the fact that you've already passed judgement on Jrue's development. The request for 'real arguments or evidence' is BS considering your over the top dislike of Collins.

Reading comprehension is important.

Did I say Jrue wasn't developing? Nope, I didn't say that. I said it was being hindered by Collins.

Is it important that a point guard learn how to handle 'end of game situations?

If your answer to that is yes, how does it help Jrue's development to stand in the corner and watch Lou Williams perform his dribble the ball out of the air?

Would it be more helpful to Jrue to be able to perform (and fail and thus learn from failure) in the end of game situations compared to watching from the corner?

I am anti Doug collins - always hve been - the pproblem as I see it is over the top love for short sighted people who can't remember past the 09/10 season and think that because they were terrible last year they were terrible before collins got here.

They were mediocre before Jordan - they're mediocre now...woo hoo Collins returned them to the level they were at before Jordan was hired - let's name him best sixers coach ever.

This isn't new - the most important thing to me last season wasn't the god damn win loss record, it was player development, and it still is, and making jrue watch in the corner does not help him learn how to function as the initiator of end of game situations.

It doesn't help him to learn by doing
And he doesn't learn shit by watching lou - because lou is lou

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 13:21

I'll let history judge Collins' development of Jrue. At the moment, it's way too early to say one way or another. You place your bets, and I'll place mine - that's fine.

Just out of curiosity, how would you grade his development of Turner now as opposed to two months ago?

My defense of Collins was in regards to Iguodala taking on more ball handling duties. I have no problem with that part of the equation. His end game isos with Lou are bad; we get it.

I do agree with you on Lou having more ball handling duties with Jrue on the floor for the first 3/4 of the game. Seeing that is frustrating as heck.

I think Collins was forced to use Turner more when Iguodala went down...I don't thik he would have if Iguodala hadn't got hurt.

As for the 'future' - one more time I'll tell you about the word hindering - slowing down - making take longer - whether he gets there or not is not in question to me - Collins is making it take longer.

Put him in the situations that you use Lou in now and it's possible he's ready to handle those situations well by the end of this season - if he's ready next season - he still got there - but slower - thus it was hindered - hoepefully it's now clear what i mean by hindering.

He's still got short leashes on Turner, Holiday, and Speights that are all unecessary when idiots like Lou and Hawes continue (for the most part) to be punishment proof

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 13:54

Ok, I see what you're saying now. I took hindering as ruining - my bad.

I don't think I'm fully convinced by the 'baptism by fire' method. But I understand that getting reps is important. Are they one and the same?

Another question: it's the last two minutes of a one possession game. Do you give the ball to Jrue as your future PG, or do you give it to Turner as your future 'closer'?

Ah - sorry - I like the word hinder - I think it worked perfectly - yeah it just means slowing down

One of my issues with the sixers roster is what i call the 'island of misfit toys' and part of that is career arcs. Brand is possibly on the downward slope (or just getting there) and Iguodala is at best at the peak of his career arc. He's going to start on the downward slope at some point but I don't think he's going to improve.

So by slowing down the development of the younger players who matter (Jrue and Evan and at one point I thought Speights) you make the 'misfit' thing even worse. To me, you want Jrue and Evan to develop as fast as possible while you can still maximize what you get from Iguodala and Brand. If Brand is done and Iguodala is (say) halfway towards the end of his career before Jrue hits his peak - because Collins slowed it down - aren't you wasting a possible opporutnity to contend for a title.

I don't care about wins and losses, per se, they aren't as important to me as the development of the two young players as fast as possible to take advantage of whatever Iguodala and Brand have left.

This isn't new for me, didn't care about the playoffs last year, or the year before, because I look at this mis matched roster and see a first round bitch slapping as its peak and don't feel 'losing in the playoffs' is going to help them develop if the right players (Jrue and Evan) aren't being developed at the speed I feel they should be (never said it wasn't my opinion - it's a blog I presume everything I state is my opinion, if people need me to keep saying in my opinion I will).

Keep in mind the following

I wanted Iverson traded the moment Brown left
I never wanted Billy King to be in charge without Brown
I wanted Andre Miller traded constantly to maximize his value

The sixers have been mediocre (at best) for a long while now - and I'm tired of 'first round miracle' being the best to hope for. That's all

I think getting reps and baptism by fire are the same thing - to me - because if you don't do it in real game situations how do you learn to handle it in real game situations?:)

Do you give the ball to Jrue as your future PG, or do you give it to Turner as your future 'closer'?

I don't know yet - but isn't it better to decide between Jrue and Evan then just give it to Lou?

Finding out if one or both of them can close out games is more important to me than Lou closing them out. (Besides, I don't buy into this whole iso thing)

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 14:12

I don't know yet - but isn't it better to decide between Jrue and Evan then just give it to Lou?


Then why not find out sooner than later? Why not run them now because they matter more to the future of this team. Might the sixers lose more games? Maybe (but I doubt it really, it's not like Lou is a super star closer), but you'll find out sooner the ability they have to close out games, the ability they have to learn on the fly and adjust to the game at game speed...to me that's much more important than going to lou as your 'best shooter' (which I also dispute).

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 14:53

I think we've been on the same page re: Lou isos at the end of games. It's bad, and Collins need to move away from it. My hope/belief is that he is moving away from it in the direction of a JTI endgame combo. Call it blind optimism.

The disagreement has been over how indicative this is of Collins' development of Jrue and Turner - the development of youth. I don't think we're contending for a title while Brand and Iguodala are here, so I'm not feeling the same sense of urgency. They're still getting the minutes, and like I said above, I don't think Collins will be using Lou as his closer by end of the season.

I wouldn't even say we're disagreeing - I'm just giving Collins more of a leash. Oh the irony...

Then why do you keep Brand or Iguodala (especially Iguodala if there's a market for him which I believe there is - contrary to the great Fagan's opinion) around? Is the goal first round mediocrity or contention? Not asking you - asking the organization

If you aren't going to contend while they're here - hand the keys over to the folks you think will matter when the team contends.

As for the lou thing - I think his 'ball dominance' extends to more than just the isos at the end of the game - but gotta watch more games (stupid synergy) to see for sure

raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 15:08

My reason for keeping Iguodala: from what I've read, you're not getting anything better than fifty cents on the dollar for him. Also, I may have been hasty in saying that Iguodala won't be around if and when the team is contending. I'm keeping Brand because I like big soon-to-be expiring contracts.

Why the organization is keeping them: who knows? a first round playoff series brings in decent cash I guess. Plus, it can't hurt the team's profile?


bebopdeluxe reply to raro on Feb 2 at 13:33

Frustrating as HELL...the correct phrase is "frustrating as HELL!!!"


It's nothing compared to EOM inventory- let me tell ya - what a pain in the arse

OldSchoolFan reply to raro on Feb 2 at 13:31

+2 Memphis game is a good illustration. Eleven turnovers in the 4th. JH & ET both contributed so Collins adjusts and allows AI to handle more in those circumstances so they don't blow any more games that way. Why should anyone have a problem with that?

raro reply to Ryan F on Feb 2 at 12:49


raro reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 12:47

I agreed in a previous post that having Lou close out games is a problem. But I'm also willing to give Collins some time to figure out a better solution.

Giving Lou the ball at the end of the game doesn't automatically make him a PG IMO. Lou making a move with 6 seconds left, while everyone is cleared out, does not make him a point guard. It's not a question of whether Jrue is good enough to be the PG with Lou on the floor, it's the fact there is no PG play at the end of games. Unfortunately, end game isos are everywhere you look in the NBA.

And the whole 'it's everywhere in the NBA so it's alright in Philly' is just another justification for bad coaching.

And I'll say it again, it's just not the end of games, it's just when people notice it more.

Lou Williams is a one dimensional player that teams can easily force into confusion cause to lou double team means 'keep dribbling' not - look for who is open

The odd thing here is that Jrue's turnover rate isn't really that bad. I mean, for a young PG, it's in line and should improve as a matter of course.

bebopdeluxe on Feb 2 at 13:26

If this is the first step towards seeing more and more J/T/I, I am all for it.

Best shooter from deep? Jrue.

Best handle for breaking down his man from the wing? Turner.

I think that all three of them could run things from the top, but Jrue's a better shooter from deep than Iguodala and Turner has a better handle...so by process of elimination, Andre is the guy up top. And if this works (in terms of floor spacing), it should actually get 'Dre more space to be effective shooting or driving.

Hope that is the case.

jsmoove reply to bebopdeluxe on Feb 2 at 14:43

Nah, can't be..?? Doug actually having a clue what he's doing? No way, unless gosixers says it's the preferred way of coaching. Hell, why didn't they just hire him he seems to have ALL the answers..

Anyone else kinda pissed Turner got left off the rookie team for Bledsoe? Turner has similar(imo better) numbers and was the #2 overall pick. You'd think the league would want to showcase him in this event. Seems like Turner will continue to be recognized around the league for his slow start to the year and not the recent progress.

I suppose if I cared about all star weekend and felt it meant anything and was a good thing - I'd be more upset.

But then again, if I cared, I'd probaly say something like "The clippers have a higher visibility because of Blake Griffin, and the game is in LA, so the league chose Bledsoe because he's on the clippers, and nationally no one really cares about the sixers, and Turner is still seen by many as the most disappointing rookie this year".

To me it's a silly exhibition that risks a player injury with no real upside - so I didn't really think about who got on instead of Evan Turner :)

At most it's disappointing, but why get pissed about someone not making a pointless exhibition?

GoSixers, why are you so down on anything the Sixers as a team do well? Yesterday, talking about "perception vs. reality" in the playoffs and now this.

You harp as loud as anyone here about the dropoff from Dalembert to Hawes. How is that not applicable to what Collins is doing now with Hawes as his linchpin defensively? How can you say it's a similar roster?

For guys like Hawes and Lou, you realize that someone has to play, right? Hawes is not punishment proof, he's been sitting a ton lately. The guy has an exteremely limited a roster. If you sit Hawes, you have the option of Speights, Battie Kapono, or Nocioni- Those last three guys happen to stink. It's not as black and white as saying these guys shouldn't play. The guys behind them stink, and are also not part of the team's future.

Turner plays 25 minutes a game, Jrue plays 35. It's not like he's gluing them to the bench. His obsession with Lou closing games is a little strange, but I don't let it affect my judgment over the other stuff he's done.

I'm not sure what Hawes has to do with the useage of Lou Williams. I'm not sure what Hawes has to do with anything except even at 20 MPG it's too many for him.

Speights has more upside than Hawes
Battie is better defensively than Hawes

Your obsession with hawes is Carch like

Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 14:34

I hate Hawes actually, not sure if that is what you meant.

Battie can really only play spot minutes at this point, he's pretty broken down. He's very overrated defensively, and the advanced stats from this year show that Hawes is pretty even in that category. Not to mention, the on. I wish he would play Speights more too, but 20 minutes a game for a starting center is very little. To blame Collins for having to play the terrible starting center the team traded for is silly. I liked this point too:

"The 4th quarter debacle in Memphis meaning that it showed how far they haven't come and how much Collins still has to show ME as a guy who knows how to coach this roster properly."

Your main point is that you hate Lou dribbling the air out of the ball, which I agree with. Lou didn't dribble the air out of the ball in that game though. He gave Jrue ample opportunity to run the show in that game. Wouldn't that be alright?

Rich reply to Rich on Feb 2 at 14:40

To further clarify, I mean the organization undoubtedly told Collins to start Hawes. Keeping him under 20 minutes a game isn't doing a terrible job of hiding him.

ONe of the reasons Collins didn't take the Chicago job reportedly was control

If Collins play of Hawes is anything more than his own decision - then I don't respect him even more than I did.

And I'm wondering - is the organization responsible for him continuing to waste time starting Jodie Meeks?

Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 14:47

OK, take out Meeks too. What should the minute distribution be?

What's the match up?

The sixers rotations should be defined by the matchups since they aren't stocked with stars and are starting two bench players.

Speights should play more than Hawes - by a 2:1 margin easy in my opinioni - if he gets som stupid fouls in the first half it shouldn't remove him from the second half.

Turner should play more than Meeks - probably at the same 2:1 margin

What's awesome is that if the organization is 'forcing' him to play Hawes and Meeks, maybe they like them and we can look forward to contract extensions for them.

Don't ask me for exact minutes, but the point is - the usage of the big men is flawed if hawes gets 20 minutes per game in my opinion - cause he stinks worse than anyone else you mentioned for a big man (nocioni isn't a big man - you use hi at center if you go small - and if you go small play brand and young)

Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 15:19

I hope understand that your points are taken with a bigger grain of salt when you say stuff like "Matchups" and "Don't ask me for minutes" when a solution could help. I know you don't care, but that's why people get irritated at times. It is kind of hard to hear criticism of someone without an actual solution.

There's 240 minutes in a game, so I'll do it.

Jrue plays Top 10 PG minutes in the league, he plays a fine amount. 35 MPG.

Iguodala plays Top 7 SF minutes and that's taken a hit with Collins limiting him (smartly I may add) with the recent injury. Add 37, so we're at 72.

Brand, even at his age/injury, plays Top 13 PF minutes. Add 35, and that gets us to 107.

Thad is a Top 30 PF in terms of minutes played per game with 26. I'll bump him up to 30 even. Now we're at 137.

Lou plays 23 minutes a game. I'll knock him down to 20. That's 157.

Turner plays twice as much as Meeks? Alright, Turner is 6th in rookie minutes at 25 a game. I'm a Turner guy and think he should play a little more, so 30 is reasonable. Meeks gets 15 then, that's 202.

That leaves Hawes and Speights. Considering Speights' foul trouble/inconsistency, whatever, 20 minutes a game is probably acceptable. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depends on how he's playing. That's 222 minutes.

So that's 18 minutes left over, while staying pretty much in the framework of minutes distributed and getting the 2-1 ratio. I also bumped Turner and Thad up to get them more minutes and there's still time left over. The point is, someone has to play. If you give the last 18 minutes to Hawes and well, that's his season average. Even if you give 10 to Hawes and 8 to Battie, over time there isn't going to be much difference in production over time.

When you look at how Collins has distributed minutes, Jodie Meeks and Spencer Hawes might be playing a little too much, but the limited resources this roster has forces them to at least play 10 minutes/plus every night. There's not really another way around it, unless Lou/Speights play 30 minutes, which is harmful in one case and unrealistic in the other.

That's great - I answered your question the way I wanted to answer it - if you don't like it - that's fine

But like i said - if you start 2 guys who wouldn't start on a good NBA team - the rotation should be defined by who you're playing and who is 'hot' that night - there aren't fixed minutes for guys like hawes speights lou meeks etc...and there shouldn't be - ride the hot hand if they have one...in fact I've said it before in relation to Lou Williams.

I'm glad you felt breaking down the minutes strengthens your argument, but I don't feel parsing minute by minute is vital to making the point that regradless of minutes, who starts in the NBA matters, rightly or wrongly, it matters, and Hawes (and now meeks) show nothing to me that justify them starting over Speights (and Turner)

Do all the math you want, but who starts matters, and hawes and meeks are not now (nor do i ever think they will be) NBA starters.

I must admit - when you started running through all your numbers, I stopped reading, my eyes got all blurry and my points were made regardless of your minute break down - if you want to dismiss them because I feel breaking down each players exact minutes is an exercise in mental masturbation - that's fine.

Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 16:03

I must admit, "Riding the hot hand" is pretty funny as the grand solution.

Harping on who starts games too? I don't think guys like Jason Terry and Big Baby are aware of that. Thad Young didn't get that memo that it mattered.

Yes, let's compare apples and oranges

Since you have no respect for my opinion - tell me why i should have any for yours?

Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 16:11

Oh, I'm not going to get into this.

Sorry for anyone reading this far.

Wow - thanks for the laughs kid

The problem I have with Collins is that he keeps saying Speights needs to work on his defense. Great, we all understand that. But then when he does have a game where he plays well, he gets less minutes the next game. And when Hawes plays like a dog on defense, basically leaning out of the way when someone gets a step on him, he may get removed from the game, but then he's right back starting and playing his 20 plus minutes the next night. And meanwhile Speights gets put on the bench for a matchup concern? Somehow it looks like Collins over the top praise for Hawes when he advocated trading Sam for him has led him to be blind to the actual damage he does to the team on the defensive end of the court.

Did Collins advocate trading Sam for him? I forget the timing of that but wasn't it right before or right after? I don't think trading Sam was for Hawes was Collins idea - I think it was a 'get under the luxury tax' idea.

+1 on the double standard for Hawes and Speights

Yeah, sorry, you're right about Sam, it was a money thing, but Collins did say he was in full support of the trade because he wanted a big man who could shoot and pass, and also be completely worthless on the defensive side of the ball.

The ironic thing (if you believe in such things) is that the advanced stats showed that Sam was, overall, better offensively than Hawes too :)

However Collins was right on the nose, Hawes really is a brilliant passer and shooter isn't he?

That's why I never believe what a coach says - what else is collins going to say days after he was hired?

I think my favorite Big Spence plays are the ones where he uses the pump fake when no one is guarding him, like he's shocked the other team doesn't feel the urgent need to account for him.

like he's shocked the other team doesn't feel the urgent need to account for him

Hey - come playoff time - that could make him some money - just ask Sam ;)

Rich reply to Chunky Soup on Feb 2 at 15:43

That's a legit criticism. I think if you are looking to play Speights more than 20 minutes a night consistently, you might find trouble.

Yeah I definetely see what you're talking about with the minutes and Speights is inconsistent, but he's better than Hawes. If Collins doesn't see that at this point, I don't know what to think. I really hope the Sixers are looking into the trade market to find a better option than spence, maybe they could start with a list of guys who box out regularly, see if that helps. Guess I'm just kinda down on him, sorry about that.

Rich reply to Chunky Soup on Feb 2 at 15:56

I agree he sucks and Speights should play more, but he has to play! There are no other options!

Sign a D-league center to a vets minimum for the rest of the season.

I see no reason not to give battie 15-20 mpg until he breaks down

Hawes is awful - hawes might be the worst starting center in the NBA - he's probably worse than most back ups - find a 7 foot steel beam - i bet you he performs as well as hawes.

Armchair Psychology

Is Ron Artest a paranoid schizophrenic or just a paranoid narcissist?


Any chance that all this love of late for Iggy is just to try and pump up his value?


Denver fell in love with him the other night and decide he could be the one to replace Melo. Suddenly, Melo to NJ, Iggy to Denver, Favors to 76ers comes back to life...

Except all reports indicate the sixers are too excited about losing in the first round to trade Iguodala.

I think they might still lose in the first round if they do trade Iguodala, but can you really play Favors that much or do you just alienate brand?

wof reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 18:19

That's what has me, and I am sure most of you, so worried. This team is going to go right back to being top 10-15 in the league and they'll be stuck there for another decade.

Move Iggy and dare to be great!

Tray reply to wof on Feb 2 at 18:24

What will we get for him, how much would it help us tank (surely not enough this year, and by the time next season rolls around and Holiday and Turner get better, not enough the next), will free agents really come here. I used to feel as you do but now I'm not so sure.

Tom Moore on Feb 2 at 16:02

On train to Newark. Third and last trip to Prudential Center this season.

Tom Moore on Feb 2 at 16:06

Thanks for the kind words in intro, Brian.

Tom Moore on Feb 2 at 16:12

Sixers have NBA's 10th best record since second worst with 3-13 start (18-13).

You know, the truth is, if Collins really, really hated young players he wouldn't start Holiday. And he wouldn't have started Turner to start the season. Holiday's 20, and a lot of people wouldn't blame him if he started the "proven" Lou and brought Holiday off the bench. But he doesn't; he starts the league's youngest starting point guard. And it's understandable enough that when you're the coach of a team that isn't a total rebuilding situation, but does have the talent to go .500, you attempt to do it rather than treating the whole season as an experiment/audition for our youngest players. Name me a coach in the league that has the players to make the playoffs, but instead says, "you know what, I'm going to put the ball in my hands of my struggling rookie and my youngest player all the time, just to see what they can do. After all, we're not going to win a title or anything." That may be the rational choice, but I don't see any coach of a mediocre-to-good team actually doing that, ever. And I think there are a number of coaches who wouldn't start Holiday just because he's so young.

But he doesn't; he starts the league's youngest starting point guard.

He does does he?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Feb 2 at 18:19

There's someone younger? Oh, Wall. Right, so the Wizards boldly start their #1 pick, one of the more highly touted draft picks in the last ten years. Collins, going out on a way smaller limb, starts Holiday, mid-first-round pick who hadn't actually done much his rookie season but look promising.

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