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Iguodala as Point-Forward

Stats from the rest of the players (including the advanced stats and Iguodala stats Brian already referenced):

I think competition has to be taken into account, which is why the sample size isn't yet conclusive.

Thanks for the additional stats. It's worth pointing out that the 8 other players in the rotation all have higher FG percentages during the 15-game period than their seasonal averages. If that keeps up, it's worth the decrease in Iguodala's own FG %.

Good article, he talks about a lot of what's covered above. Adds in that Jrue's turnovers have basically been cut in half since the move.

Tom Moore on Mar 7 at 15:50

Video: Collins Monday on the next stretch of games and trying to put more distance between the Sixers and teams trailing them:


Tom Moore on Mar 7 at 16:00

Turner Monday on the upcoming schedule, starting with Tuesday's game in Indy, and being in the playoff mix right away as a high draft pick:


I believe this was the perfect time in Iguodala's career to try him at point forward. Earlier in his career, he may not have been ready to sacrifice his scoring, and -- though he always had great court vision -- he hadn't developed the sense of judgment that he has now of when/where/how to make the right pass.

It sounds like the main source of hesitation that most people have with this move is that Jrue has been taken off the ball more. But it's also worth pointing out that (if Derek's stats are correct) Jrue's assist-to-turnover ratio during the 15 games is up to almost 3-to-1 (his overall ratio is around 2.4). So not being the primary set-up guy has actually helped Jrue's passing. And it wouldn't surprise me if, at some point, Coach Collins moved some of the point guard responsibilities back to Jrue.

In any case, 11-4 is impressive, no matter what the competition ...

Old School Sixer Fan reply to Statman on Mar 7 at 16:41

I think all the players appreciate winning and are willing to do what it takes to win. They see who does what best. Giving Iguodala more distribution responsibility is helpful and instructive for Jrue, Even and maybe even Lou.

An argument can be made that limited minutes in a winning, playoff-bound environment is a better development environment than a losing situation like Washington or Sacramento where prized rookies can just run around playing inefficiently.

More triple double trivia:
* McKie's back-to-back triple doubles were the only ones of his career and the only other time a Sixer has had back-to-back triple doubles since 1987.
* Iverson had one triple double in his career.
* Wilt once had a 20-20-20 game. (If that happened today, Zumoff would spontaneously combust.)

Tom Moore on Mar 7 at 18:11

Collins: 'We expected (to win) from the start':


It does need to be stated just how bad of defensive teams the Sixers were playing. 10 of those 15 games came against teams in the bottom 3rd in the league defense. New Jersey (22nd in defensive rating), Knicks (20th, twice), Hawks (13th, but without Horford), Timberwolves (26th, twice), Houston (24th), Washington (23rd), Detroit (27th), Cleveland (30th) and Golden State (28th) made up 11 of those 15 games, and 10 of the 11 wins. The exception being San Antonio, which the Sixers had an offensive rating of 87.2

The Sixers had 5 games during that span where they played a top 20 defense, and one of them was against the Hawks, who were missing Al Horford. Against the other 4 the Sixers went 1-3 and had offensive ratings of 102.1, 87.2, 103.7 and 97.4.

.457 SOS in February :)

OK, it's quite obvious that the team has played overall better in these 15 games since Iguodala was made point forward. But at the same time we cannot forget that the pre point forward stats are skewed by Iguodalas' injury which bothered him for a while and more importantly the 3-13 start. I think there is an improvement but it's not as dramatic as it appears when you look at those stats.

The sixers had a very weak schedule in February, and they've played two of the worst teams in the league (out of 3 games) in March.

I think Iguodala helped, but I think people are over stating how much compared to the team gelling under Collins in general and the fact that the SOS in February was 457 (and in 3 games in march is probably around there or lower)

Billups out again for the Knicks, against the Jazz

Here's a question someone might know the answer to...

Why do most east coast stadium games start at 7 but certain ones (NY for instance) start at 7:30

Is that purely a traffic thing?

Good question, and I have no idea what the answer is. I always thought it was just teams being different for the sake of being different.

It'd sure be nice if the Jazz would put up a fight in NYC.

This isn't a very good idea. Jrue should be the one controlling the action in the half court. He's always better when he has the ball and is making plays. You see the difference when the team goes away from Jrue as the game goes on, and he is not nearly as effective as he is early when he sometimes dominates. As far as Iguodala, he can be playing well no matter who the point guard is.

jkay reply to Chunky Soup on Mar 7 at 22:03

while Holiday is clearly the future, right now Iguodala is the better option at point. he's more steady, doesn't waste time dribbling around, makes the simple plays without turning it over and has the common sense to feed EB regularly.
I think the Iggy as point forward will show its limitations against better defenses but it's still better than Holiday's often questionable decision making. Obviously next year that should change.

IMO, I think Holiday's scoring skills surpass his play making skills as a PG. I see him becoming a Tony Parker type that attacks rather than trying to set up and manage the game.

I couldn't disagree more w/ this assessment of Jrue as a playmaker.

jkay reply to Brian on Mar 7 at 22:41

sounds radical I expect.

Rich reply to Brian on Mar 8 at 0:09

What do you disagree with Brian? I disagree with the part where he can't manage games, but his scoring is his best asset right now, no? I love his playmaking too, but it's inconsistent right now.

I think the two skills are about even, but the scoring is more consistent as of now.

Maybe a post about what Iguodala's new role is doing to Jrue?

I'm not sure Iguodala's new role is doing anything bad to Jrue, I disagree that he was doing a poor job of running the offense and that his playmaking skills aren't at the same level as his scoring skills. I think he's shown he's a fine playmaker, he isn't lacking vision or passing skills, and he really wasn't turning the ball over at an alarming rate either, he just wasn't taking as good care of it as Iguodala has (and not many PGs in the league take care of the ball as well as Iguodala has this season).

I don't really have a problem w/ AI9 playing this role, I just think it's unfair to Jrue to say AI9 had to take these responsibilities away from Jrue because he was somehow failing in the role, which he wasn't.

And one thing I think you'll find if you go back and look at the past handful of games is that Iguodala's share of the ballhandling duties is coming out of Lou's share much more than Jrue's share, recently.

Rich reply to Brian on Mar 8 at 0:26

His assists in Feb. did drop to his lowest level of the season (not by a mile, bust still), which could be expected. It also cut his TO's down, which is good. Through three games in March, Jrue has had the been good distributing the ball. So I agree it hasn't had a great effect on Jrue.

I do think his passing is very inconsistent, and while it's probably about as good as his scoring, he scores the ball more consistently. That's alright too, he's 20.

I guess it comes down to the philosophical question, "Are we hindering Jrue's development to win a few games if he isn't the focal point of the offense. Would he be doing more if the "PF" thing wasn't going on?

Yeah, I mean, that's probably an impossible question to answer. When the move was first made, Jrue seemed to be pushed to the side a little bit, but like I said above, I think they pendulum is swinging from Jrue to Lou, which is excellent for the team as a whole.

This is really a team w/out a backup PG, so if you can find a balance where Jrue is still initiating most of the time and Igudoala is taking the reps that the backup PG would be taking, then you're in great shape.

As for Jrue's passing, I think he's got the best vision on the team, and maybe it's a little too advanced at times. A lot of the turnovers you see him make are where he reads the defense and throws the pass to the spot where the other guy should be, if the other guy was reading the defense correctly as well. That's great if you've got a group of guys on the same page because those passes turn into easy opportunities. That's terrible if everyone isn't on the same page, because they wind up being ugly turnovers.

It's part of the maturation process. Last season, Jrue was underestimating the athleticism on the perimeter and making lazy passes. he's eliminated those problems. The next step is to figure out maybe not what his teammates should do in a certain situation, but what they will do in that situation. Like in the last game, as an example, Brand set a pick for Jrue at the left elbow, Jrue took one dribble toward the corner then put a bounce pass into the middle of the lane (which was wide-open), but Brand had stayed at the elbow for his jumper. The dive to the hole would've resulted in a dunk or a layup, but Brand isn't that guy anymore. He's going to take the uncontested elbow jumper, so Jrue needs to know that and wrap the pass around to him at the elbow. Stuff like that.

Rich reply to Brian on Mar 8 at 1:03

It's a thing where it's more of a short-term move, and development might be stalled, which isn't good in the long-term. I like what Collins is doing there, but it is short-term thinking. Have to admit that.

I think you are right about making passes that are too advanced, but that's not the only way he turns it over. I don't think he's really cut out the lazy turnovers. He still makes too many of them. Over the point forward experiment, he's done that less, and that might be because he's not initiating the offense, where he made most of the lazy ones. That's my theory anyway.

I'm inclined to trust Collins on this one. At the time the switch was made, he said he thought that Jrue seemed a little overwhelmed at times and this was intended to make it easier for him. It's a long season. Jrue's handling the ball plenty. People develop faster when they're faced with an optimal amount of challenge.

Rich reply to Bob on Mar 8 at 1:13

I trust Collins more than anybody, and support the role AI9 has taken in the offense. If anything, it may be good for Jrue to have the burden taken off.

There is something to be said for the fact that our point guard of the future is not playing the role he was intended to do, that's all.

To me it's not that Jrue is just playing less of the role he was intended to, it's that he's playing less of the role he's best at. And it's because coach can't stand to look at an extra turnover here or there. The only burden for Jrue is not being free to make a couple of mistakes without being pushed aside, an experience that he is smart enough to learn from. It's not a weight to grow into a better point guard, it's a challenge. And one that should be embraced by Collins as well.

So Favors played 25 minutes tonight, largely garbage time, and had 16 and 8. In his 11 minute first-half run, he had no fouls and helped get the Jazz back into it. In his 14-minute second half run, he committed six and fouled out. Among players playing 15 minutes or more, Favors is first in the league in fouls per minute, if you don't count the 12 games Earl Barron played for Phoenix. Cousins is ninth. Rose was 8-21 - he must be the most inefficient front-runner for an MVP award since Iverson. Cousins has 20, 7 and 3 in the third... on 18 shots, with 4 turnovers and 4 fouls.

And the Warriors owner said they could have traded for Gerald Wallace but didn't, because he didn't fit their team on account of his... being too good of a defender and rebounder?

"We could've gotten Wallace -- he's not somebody we thought would make us better. I really believe that," Lacob said. "He just doesn't fit for us. He's good defensive player, rebounder, certain things that do fit, certain things that don't. I could argue, don't know whether Portland got better or worse."

Thinking about the Jrue talk, I guess my point is that Jrue to me, is a little inconsistent as a playmaker. He has games where he's brilliant with 10-plus, and others where he's 3-minus. He's twenty and I get that his assists aren't going to be a flat-6 every game.

It's just part of me thinks he can start scratching toward that high ceiling with more reps. Right now, Iguodala is taking Lou's reps, but Lou was taking Jrue's reps. Sure, Andre is so much better than Lou, but don't we still have a little bit of a problem?

Maybe Jrue turns into a guy who has the versatility to play on and off the ball and this is good for him. For the "giving the keys to the PG of the future" talk that most of us said early in the season, we are a little bit stalled.

Just a thought.

For the "giving the keys to the PG of the future" talk that most of us said early in the season, we are a little bit stalled.

See even this isn't black and white. I mean, our 20-year-old PG is leading the team in minutes played, and while he hasn't played the point in most fourth quarters, I can only remember one or two times when he wasn't on the floor during crunch time the entire season. Does it not count as development time when he's on the floor but not running the point exclusively?

I'm not sure where I stand on this, I tend toward wanting him to be the unquestioned PG whenever he's on the floor, but I honestly don't know.

I'm not sure where I stand on this, I tend toward wanting him to be the unquestioned PG whenever he's on the floor, but I honestly don't know.

Winning or Player Development.

What matters more to you this season?

Then you know where you stand :)

See, that's assuming he isn't being developed in his current role, and I'm not sure you can say that with any authority.

I think you can say with a high level of confidence that what Jrue Holiday is doing in the fourth quarter is learning to stand in the corner :)

Though no lou the last 2 games in the fourth is a step in the right direction.

He has been doing more in the fourth as of late. Let's just hope that trend continues.

bebopdeluxe reply to GoSixers on Mar 8 at 11:48

No Lou in the 4th = more opportunities for Turner.

Sign me up.

I like having Turner in the fourth, no doubt, but no lou needs to create more opportunities for Jrue.

Yes, 3 initiators on the court is good, but long term, Jrue Holiday must be the primary initiator or he will not achieve as much as he could in this league

bebopdeluxe reply to GoSixers on Mar 8 at 12:04

With both Iguodala and Turner on the floor late, I would have no problem with either 1) having Jrue (and his close to 40% stroke from 3) be the guy to stretch the floor at times...or, in the even that the opposing team has a smaller guard out there on the floor, having Jrue run isos on the wing or post-ups (something that the Sixers had success with when Miller was here).

More J/T/I, please.

Rich reply to Brian on Mar 8 at 12:35

It's not black and white, but I remember when Lou was the guy making all of the decisions in the 4th quarter and everyone, including me, was going crazy.

Now that Iguodala's making most of the decisions people are alright with it and I'm not sure if it's any different then what Lou was doing in terms of Jrue. The real difference is the quality brand of basketball played by the team, which helps people overlook it.

"Not running the point exclusively" seems a lot like "standing in the corner" to me. Yeah he gets a few touches here and there, but he got a couple of touches in crunch time when Lou was there.

You know, I think it's a lot less noticeable when Iguodala is running the show because he'll actually pass the ball to Jrue within a play. So Jrue is still a part of the offense, whereas with Lou running the point, Jrue is literally just standing in the corner and he never gets the ball.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Mar 8 at 13:00

True dat.

tk76 reply to Rich on Mar 8 at 12:56

I agree. When the team is winning 75% of its game (15-5) then its hard to complain about anything they are doing.

They have a tough stretch this next week. If they cool off it will be interesting to see how people take it.

Jrue's 20

He plays like he's 20

People read too much bad and good into it.

The home loans suppose to be essential for guys, which are willing to start their own company. In fact, it is not very hard to receive a short term loan.

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