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Doug Collins Confidence Meter

I love the job Collins has done with this team. Really could any coach have done better with this group? Phil Jackson? Popovich? Larry Brown in his prime? They probably would have gotten off to better starts with those guys but not been so competitive against the better teams like getting wins against the Spurs, Magic and Heat in the playoffs. With the exact same squad I just dont see anyone doing a better job than Collins did. Lots of coaches get wins with talented players like Phil and Popovich but what could they do with THIS squad? Only Larry Brown comes close to maximizing lesser talent to their full potential like Collins did this season. Unless if they make some major moves I don't see Collins taking this team to a championship. If he's still around when Iguodala/Brand contracts are up then we'll see what the 76ers do with their squad. I'd say Eastern Finals in 4-5 years if this group remains intact with some positive additions and needed subtractions. Speights, Nocioni, Hawes and Kapono all need to go. It's easy to forget all about players like Songali and Brackins. We really can't afford to have players who don't play. Kapono and Battie are gone. Hawes should be too or re-signed dirt cheap. He hasn't shown much other than the occasional good game.

Center and backup big as well as another shooter would really complete this squad. Someone besides Lou Will who plays major minutes needs to get to the line and make shots in the clutch. A dependable scorer/shooter. No offense to Lou but you need that in your starting lineup. Jrue is coming close on the scoring and shooting end of that but we need players to get to the line and make those free throws. Iguodala needs to be around 35 minutes a game and won't be so worn down after a season. Turner needs more minutes and it has to come out of Iguodala's. Win or lose Collins needs to see what he has with Turner next season, just like they did with Jrue this year.

I am fairly happy with the job Collins has done thus far. He made a few questionable decisions (overdoing the Lou iso in clutch time, being too hard on Speights and Turner) but overall i think he did a pretty good job all things considered. I gave him an 8.

As for my preseason prediction i had this team at 41-42 wins so that would be +/- 0... :)

I have all my eggs in the Doug Collins basket. I'm just hoping he realizes that the only way for this team to get better that .500 is for Evan Turner or Jrue Holiday to become a star.

Blog: Hawes: First taste of playoffs makes me want more:

http://ow.ly/4Jre7

(with Hawes video interview)

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Steve V on Apr 29 at 9:15
+/-

I want to keep AI9 but if we had to trade him a deal that makes sense for both teams is AI9 to the Clippers in a sign and trade for DeAndre Jordan and Al-Farouq Aminu. I think the clippers would do this deal in a heartbeat.

I would probably accept that deal, but i would rather have the Wolves 2012 pick than Aminu... Anyway I'm not so sure the Clippers will accept that deal. From everything i've read about them they are high on Jordan this year... But hey it's the Clippers, everything can happen.

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Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 9:24
+/-

Video: Young on wanting to get his long jumper back to where it was and how much better it feels after this season than last year:

http://ow.ly/4JF3u

Doug Collins
'10-'11 REPORT CARD

media relations A+
motivational speaking A-
game preparation A
personnel deployment B+
intra-game adjustments B
referee massaging B+
overtime techniques D
player development C+
recitation of statistics A+
inter-generational translation B+
'show ya luv' facility A+
'set of balls' loan management A+
company pride restoration A
"Mr. Snider" deferencing A
tonsorial maintenance B+
dry cleaner support A

semester composite grade B+
(42-45)
[+10]

Comments: Doug was a pleasure to have in class. Following a beginning period of adjustment, he consistently demonstrated a positive approach to his responsibilities. His willingness to participate in activities and ability to get along with others was outstanding. He is alert and upright in demeanor and walks with accountability. I am convinced his future holds much promise. He is assigned to Mr. Stern for the '11-'12 session.

Nicely done! These are just about the grades I would have given him. I don't know about B+ for "tonsorial maintenance," though -- he didn't have much of a voice by the end of the year.

If we're in college and grading on the curve of recent Sixer coaches (or if this is a school like Harvard with rampant grade inflation), Collins gets bumped up to a solid A-/A.

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tk76 reply to Statman on Apr 29 at 11:07
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Yeah, I agree for the most part with the grades above (at least the terms I understand.) The only difference is that I would give him a B+ instead of C+ for player development. Jrue, Thad and Lou have come along nicely.

While its been a challenge walking the tightrope between development and winning basketball with Turner. And don't downplay the battle of wills involved. Collins was in the right not backing down to Turners resistance to change.

As for the other young player- who cares.

... My Win prediction was 25. I did expect a big down than recovery- but though Turner would be more integral to the upswing. which he wasn't until the playoffs.

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Apr 29 at 11:29
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Typo, my win prediction was 35, not 25. I thought their talent level was about 27 wins, but they would overachieve a bit.

And what was your prediction before the season Eddie Jordan coached when they arguably had the same talent level but at different positions (Center was better with EFJ PG was not as good)

And that's an interesting thing. While Center took a step back, PG takes a step up (and I'm not giving collins all the credit for 20 year old jrue holiday developing in his second year in the league) and the nba is becoming a PG league.

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 11:51
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There were a few factors in my 35 win prediction:

1. Losing Sam and replacing him with a bum created a gaping hole on the defense. The counter to this would be improved Jrue and adding Turner. But IMO you can't make up for no interior D by having quality guard play.

2. I did not expect the Sixers history of staying relatively healthy to continue.

3. The team finished the prior year (IIRC) losing 20 of their last 25. That was more than bad coaching. that was a team that was emotionally dysfunctional and had taken on a loser mentality. I did not expect that to simply go away with a new coach.

So if Collins had taken over the team 2 years ago, I would have had higher expectations.

"didn't have much of a voice by the end of the year" ... you may be right, but what he could muster was clipped for attention and hair-raisingly inspirational.

Agree on 'curve' adjustment should dilution be your preference.

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Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 9:55
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Video: Williams on the plan for the Sixers to keep working out during a possible lockout and how the team can take the next step:

http://ow.ly/4JGtg

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tk76 reply to Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 11:30
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Tom, I asked this on RealGM:

before the season Jrue said he was working on a go to "signature" move that he would unveil. What is that move?

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Apr 29 at 14:55
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I think it was that behind the back through the legs dribble. I can't remember when he used it, maybe against San Antonio, and maybe another time against Washington

Gave him a 5

Had the debate numerous times

But he did nothing Mo Cheeks and Tony Dileo didn't do, but with different names (but the same kind of mis matched roster that Dileo and cheeks worked with)

Evan Turner didn't develop enough (not fully Collins fault, but he's the coach)

Collins had no influence on Speights, supposedly he was going to.

Collins coached short term (his career w-l record) versus long term (franchise success) too often

Oh yeah, the sixers started 3-13 and that's partly because he was deluded enough to think a guy like kapono or nocioni should start in the NBA, and he's been doing games how long.

Yes, the sixers made the playoffs and lost in the first round, BFD, they did it 2 years ago and 3 years ago.

The EJ Halo effect still seems to linger to me, he gets more credit than he should because Eddie Jordan might go down as one of the worst coaches in sixer (NBA) history?

Here's a fun debate.

Worse one season sixers coach, Eddie Jordan or Randy Ayers?

Couple more things

8/9/10 (to me) is for a coach who gets his roster of players to over achieve what they are capable of, and develops young players going forward (aside from Jrue, don't think collins developed anyone, he just didn't use them stupidly like Jordan)

Predicting the low win total by most (including me) was based on the previous Jordan season and not the more relevant years under Dileo/Cheeks

For me, the low win prediction didn't really have much at all to do with Eddie Jordan, it had to do with the fact that they didn't really have a single legitimate big on their roster heading into this season, and they were starting a complete stiff at center. I honestly still don't know how they finished with the #7 defense in the league when the center position was manned by Hawes and an undersized Brand for about 90% of the minutes.

Well, since it was 6 months ago, it's hard to really remember what predictions were based on - but all the heads on tv were talking about the record last season, and many (including me) I think underestimated how truly awful Eddie Jordan is as an NBA coach.

Eddie Jordan probably 'suffers' the most with what Collins did this year, demonstrating just how terrible he is as a coach

Right, getting to 41 wins with this roster, low on experience and in some positions low on talent, was arguably more impressive than the 40/41 wins achieved in 08 and 09 by Cheeks/DiLeo (though I don't denigrate the impressive turnarounds they brought about in those seasons). That Collins designed a successful defensive scheme with really one above-average defender playing significant minutes most of the season is his shining achievement. Again, this was the first Sixer team to outshoot its opponents in both 2-point and 3-point percentage since 84-85.

Speaking of above-average defense, one point I forgot to mention in my closing remarks in the Heat series is that Jrue more than held his own vs. both Wade and LeBron, mostly without getting into foul trouble too (it did help he could start games on Bibby). Where he can improve most next year is bringing that focus and intensity on defense all the time, because he certainly has the ability.

Hmm....I suppose that's true if you ignore two things

1. Probably the best season ever for Andre Iguodala
2. The return to form (health) and being used properly by a smart coach Elton Brand
3. Lou Williams being Lou Williams
4. Thaddeus Young returning to his rookie year performance level

Aside from those four points, you're absolutely right that it was all about COllins coaching up inexperienced players.

He really coached up guys like Hawes and Speights who totally out performed their previous career numbers, you know, except that they didn't.

He totally leaned on rookies like Evan Turner and Craig Brackins.

The sixers are a 500 team, and they'll be a 500 team next year without a few significant roster changes, and next year when they'r 500 how many will bash Collins cause the team isn't any better BECAUSE THEY WERE 500 the season before.

Improvement is not a given year after year folks.

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 11:57
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Like I said above- you can't take out of the equation that EJ broke this team. And when a group of players are broken, simply replacing the coach is not a simple fix.

Think of a small business. It is funtional, and then brings in a terrible boss. In one year that boss has everyone hating each other, their jobs and their boss. They are all doing their jobs and generally negligent at their jobs the last 4 months of the year.

You certainly can replace the boss with a competetnt one... but that does not mean the damage done to the workers suddenly disappears.

1. If Collins had taken over the team 2 years ago insted of EJ he would have had an easier job, and been even more successful right now.

2. If DiLeo or Cheeks had taken over the team right after EJ broke them... they would have struggled a ton more their first year.

Or think of it this way (since I've worked in a company like you suggest)

You have a bad boss for a year and instead of everyone hating everyone, the work place is toxic (no doubt) but everyone realizes that they aren't bad, just that hte boss sucks and once the boss sucks people have more fun and enjoy their job. The new boss gets the credit for the 'improved efficiency' when really it's just 'ding dong the witch is dead'

I don't know if you've been in a situation where the boss is hated and then replaced, but in pesonal experience, coworkers dont' hate or jump on each other, they actually bond over their hatred of the boss and when he's/she's replaced that bonding makes them even better when the better shinier boss is hired.

Basically 500 two years before jordan - 500 the year after - slightly different roster contsructions but plusses AND minuses in comparisons (no elton brand for cheeks or dileo - best elton brand since he got to philly for collins).


I still see no persuasive argument that says collins did a great job with the roster he had - a great job exceeds ability and who do you think out performed their ability this year AND you give collins credit for our pefromance?

I bet you 2/3 of the coaches in the league could have gotten this team to 500. Hell some of them probably don't go 3-13 to start the season and then the sixers are the 5 seed and maybe getting ready to play Chicago.


Look at this roster. Does their talent level equal a top seven defense in the league? If the answer is no, then Collins did an exceptional job with what he had.

Well one you have the best wing defender in the league to shut down the other teams 'star player' - that always helps.

According to the DPOY voters, Grant Hill is the best wing defender in the league, and Phoenix was 25th in DFR.

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Tray reply to Brian on Apr 29 at 13:17
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Suggesting the voters are wrong. I mean, you don't think Grant Hill's that great a defender, do you? I saw him guard Kobe well in a game this year, but I can't imagine he can still stick with the more explosive types.

But yeah, on the larger point, of course you're right that we don't have 7th best defense talent. Then again, look at Thibodeau - he really isn't working with much defensively outside of Noah and Brewer/Bogans, who aren't nearly as good as Iguodala. Rose is okay, Boozer a sieve, there's Korver... and they're great. So I mean, there's Collins's overachievement, and Thibodeau's massive overachievement.

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tk76 reply to Tray on Apr 29 at 13:34
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Noah: Good interior presence world's better than any Sixer

Boozer: Worse than brand but more mobile/versatile

Deng: Good defender (probably top defensively 6 at his position when healthy)

Bogans: Good defender (better than Meeks)

Rose: Similar to Jrue in that lacks defensive polish, but has the physical tools to be a great defender. probably not as focussed on D as Jrue

Asik: Highly regarded defender
Gibson: better than Thad defensively
Thomas: Old, crusty but smart defender (probably worse than Battie)
Brewer: well regarded defender
Korver: poor iso defender. Motivated and smart team defender. Less of a mismatch than Lou at SG.
Watson: well regarded defender

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 12:18
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Fair point. There probably is no way to know which side of it is more accurate.

All I know is that the Sixers players were playing loser basketball that went beyond their record. It was a surprise given previously the Sixers had always been a "high effort" team under DiLeo and Cheeks. But I did not expect the players to suddenly snap back to playing the right way when they replaced EJ.

Okay, I'm a little confused. You ask me to ignore two things and then list four things? But of your list, I would argue that in at least 3 of the 4, Collins should be given some credit:
(1) he got Iguodala to buy into the emphasis on improved defense and passing [part of the problem in 08-09 and 09-10 was that Iguodala and Brand did not play well together, that disappeared this year];
(2) he believed in Brand when no one else did and designed plays to emphasize Brand's strengths [Cheeks and arguably DiLeo really struggled with this in the short time they had him];
(4) he put Thad in positions in the offense where Thad could flourish.

I don't know where you got "all about Collins coaching up inexperienced players" from my original comment, which mentioned that this team was more inexperienced than the 08/09 teams (I don't think that is in dispute) but emphasized the development of the defensive scheme, where he got the team to accomplish something that hadn't been done in 26 years for this franchise.

You're right, though, improvement isn't guaranteed every year -- including this one, which is why I argue that Collins did a good job.


Sorry, next time I'll use sarcasm tags so you aren't confused so easily

Interesting little twitter comment over there brian :)

When there's an NBA off season the Magic will be fun to watch

SO let me see if I have this straight

everything good that happened to the sixers this season would not have happened if Doug Collins wasn't here?

Jrue Holiday would not have evolved under any other coach?
Elton Brand wouldn't have been healthy?
Andre Iguodala wouldn't have used his FIBA experience to have probably the best season of his career?
Lou Willams wouldn't have played the same way he always played and had an actually 'worse' season than the season under Eddie Jordan?

Yet anything bad (Evan Turner, Spencer Hawes, Speights, Brackins, staring Kapono or Nocioni at all) none of those things are Collins fault?

To give a guy a 10 (in my opinion) he has to have been perfect, there is no better than 10, it means you don't think collins could have done a better job, that he was flawless in his execution as a head coach.

Almost 20% of the people who voted already feel Collins was flawless?

So 3-13 must not have been on collins at all either?

The question was how confident you are in Collins going forward. And I think it's a bit more ridiculous to say Collins was average and give him a five than to say he was perfect. But either way, it's your (and their) opinion(s). So no need to get up in arms about it.

And I'm not up in arms, I'm defending my point and looking for others to defend their points. I see nothing in Collins that makes him a 'great coach', and more importantly, going forward, no matter what he says, history indicates he's here for 2 more seasons, on the outside.


How much confidence would you have in a coach going forward if you knew he wouldn't be the head coach 2 years from today?

So you have no confidence in Phil Jackson right now?

Your premise was going forward right?

So yeah, I have zero confidence that Phil Jackson will do a great job as the lakers coach after this season.

Why?

cause I (and everyone in LA who covers the lakers) believes him when he says this is his last season.


If he's not going to be the coach of the lakers the next season (whenever it is) - he's irrelevant to the success of the lakers after this season (unless he takes a front office job to keep bonking ms buss)

And, Phil jackson isn't the same coach he was (in LA) before he left and came back. Kobe had to ok the Phils return and Phils coaching of kobe has changed since his return (again, laker watchers who cover the team)

All I'm saying is that, big deal, Collins got the sixers back to 500, without significant roster overhaul, i think the team is a 500 team on pure talent alone with a coach who doesn't get in the way or install a stupid system. I don't think collins is uniquely gifted as a head coach, he doesn't bring anything many other coaches don't bring. His history indicates teams burn out on him quickly, and that he grates under coaching a super star.

There's nothing in Doug Collins history as an NBA head coach that indicates he's going to be the sixers head coach for a long period of time.

So your point is that you think Collins did an average job. Basically, 15 coaches in the league could've stepped in as head coach for the Sixers and gotten the same results he did.

Actually I think I said 2/3 so about 20 probably...i don't know the name of every coach in the league and some got

But 15?

Let's look at playoff coaches
You eliminate collins, vogel (cause he's a replacement), d'antoni cause of stupid system and I don't trust larry drew, but off the top of my head the other 12 (i think 12) could have gotten the sixers to 500 yes.

Then Jerry Sloan, Rick Adelman, Scott Skiles, Larry Brown (who I hate but he would have gotten this team to 500 and then burned the team out next season) I think byron scott is a good coach, he would have had this team aat 500 (and possibly had even more evolution from Jrue cause he played in a more modrns era in the Nba)

That's 17 off the top of my head, guys ho are or were coaches in the NBA this season

Scott and Adelman both coach some version of the PO, not sure why you'd expect them to have any kind of success with it in Philly following in Jordan's footsteps.

I think we've talked about this before, but do you feel the same way about Thibodeau?

I don't pay enough attention to the bulls this year versus last year on the court to know if it's thibodeau or not, that's the honest truth

In other words

I was unimpressed with Collins 'great' job all season (as I stated repeatedly) and see no reason to think that he's going to be responsible for massive improvement with the current roster. He doesn't make the trades, negotiate the contracts and (god willing) decide who the sixers are going to draft.

The bigger concerns are Thorn (and Dileo) and Snider because they're the ones 'buying the groceries' for the line cook.

In fact now that I think about it, those guys and the 'confidence' level is hella more important than collins because without a talent upgrade in multiple areas (without losing talent in other areas) I don't think Coach Woden makes this team that much better than they were this year.

Collins I believe got what any good coach could out of this roster, he can not improve the talent, he didn't have an impact on Speights (which was vital for this team to take another step), Hawes was the defensive dud many thought he would be (also not Collins fault per se), and Craig Brackins obviously wasn't impressive enough to get play ahead of speights even a little and it seems that doug really doesn't like speights.

IOW - confidence in the coach isn't as important (to me) as confidence in the improvement of the roster, current players and future additions, of which it's the players, gm, draft folks, owners who are doing the work.

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 12:25
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"I don't think Coach Woden makes this team that much better than they were this year."

Typo aside, I agree. This is not a high upside team as currently constructed. I also don't know if their is much Thorn can do in the next 2 years to change that. But big picture you have to hope that there is a chance that this can be legit winning team a few years down the road- using some of the current players as building blocks.

Like I've said before- they have a good building block in Jrue and a few other players who might join him in that regard if they improve or stick around. But they have building blocks without a cornerstone.

I also don't know if their is much Thorn can do in the next 2 years to change that. But big picture you have to hope that there is a chance that this can be legit winning team a few years down the road- using some of the current players as building blocks.

Sentence two conflicts sentence one I think. And you chose the word hope, not believe, but hope. Hope is what people have when they don't have belief or certainty, they just hope it's going to work out.


What players are you pinning this hope on in a 'few years down the road' and how do you plan to replace elton brand cause in a few years his career is over.

To me, the 'effectiveness' of the coach right now is much less significant than the effectiveness of the front office and the willingness of ownership, not just to open the wallet a bit more if necessary but to take a step back to take two steps forward.

They'll hover around 500 if certain major changes aren't made to the roster, no matter who the coach is, which is why I use a 5 because I don't think collins is really as important to the future of this team as others, both on the roster and the front office

That's all

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 12:51
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I don't see the inconsistency in what I said.

The die has been cast these next two years due to the financial obligations to Brand and Iguodala. Keep them and stay where you are. Trade them and the return will either make you much worse right now or burden you more long term. But a coach is still important because you can install a system and build up the pieces that are in place.

But there is more flexibility to make major changes in 2 years. Becasue that is so far down the road it is impossible to be "confident" then right choices will be made. If Stefanski is making the choices then his track record worries me. And Its very possible they mess things up in the next two year to where they lose that window of opportunity... but as things stand now there should be an opportunity in 2 years where they have solid young players on the roster, a good defensive system in place, and gobs of expiring contracts to open up the option of acquiring a true impact player.

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psv reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 12:12
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everything good that happened to the sixers this season would not have happened if Doug Collins wasn't here?
Well, let's think about it this way. How many coaches came through the Sixers locker room in the past five seasons? How many different personalities? Different coaching styles? At this point, especially with some of the young players we have, it was important to have a coach with credentials and a system for these players to buy into, and a guy the Sixers know will be around for at least a season or two more.

Jrue Holiday would not have evolved under any other coach?
Perhaps, perhaps not. It's a PG league, so there's no lack of people for Holiday to emulate. I'd say that Collins being here probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Elton Brand wouldn't have been healthy?
Nope. Collins went to Brand straightaway, in the off season, whereas Brand was buried on Jordan's bench with no explanation as to why.

Andre Iguodala wouldn't have used his FIBA experience...
Let me preface by saying that I like Iguodala. Actually, Iguodala was a bit of a disappointment in that regard and didn't become the leader that the Sixers had hoped. I think Collins making sure the ball was in his hands at crunch time was forcing the issue. But, he did get Iguodala to cut down on all that terrible shooting from last season, so this one is also a wash.

Lou Wil
Bench player, not a starter, and Collins maximized his talents. Thank god.

3-13
I gave him 20-25 games to figure out what he has on this roster (not a whole lot) and it took him less time than that. So kudos to Collins.

Nocioni, Hawes
I didn't agree with the trade of Dalembert. Well, I did until I realized they weren't bringing one anyone remotely close in talent back. No question, the Sixers could've used Dalembert's shot blocking ability.

Dalembert was probably the most jerked around player with the Sixers with respect to the coaching carousel. He was a very raw player coming out of college and never got the kind of training he should've gotten.

Kapono
That schlub was interested in keeping his shooting percentages up. Kyle Korver can't play D, but at least he tried.

Speights
Does not play defense. Or can't. Whatever the case may be, it was an obvious issue.

Brackins
D-League player is Collins problem? Really?

Evan Turner
If you recall, early on and throughout the season he looked like a bust. He was very, very timid. Now look at him. Minutes in the playoffs and acquitting himself nicely. He's no John Wall, but it looks like he was getting "it" by the end of the season.

Nope. Collins went to Brand straightaway, in the off season, whereas Brand was buried on Jordan's bench with no explanation as to why.

WTF does that have to do with Health (and if you read carefully I discard the Jordan season completely and compare the season with Mo and MO/Dileo.

As for 'how many coaches' - NO ONE WANTED THE FUCKING JOB. How many people passed before they hired Randy Ayers? Jim O'brien got them to the playoffs and I hated the mo cheeks hire, so don't go with the 'bad coaches before him' thing - that's still a fucking halo effect, everyone else was incompetent so he's better? Well O'brien, Mo, and Dileo all got the sixers knocked out in the first round just like collins didn't they?

As for the rest of it, you completely missed my point. I'm not saying it's collins fault with those players, I'm saying they showed no improvement from Jordan to Collins so Collins had zero impact on them (though starting Kapono and Nocioni is purely Collins fault)

Lou Williams was one of the few sixers who had a productive season under Eddie Jordan, he was not as productive as last year and oh yeah, let's not forget the whole 'let's use lou as a point guard but he doesn't pass and run lou isos over and over' thing - took collins 3/4 of a season to see how freaking dumb that was - many here knew it was dumb less than 15 games in

Collins actually got in touch w/ Brand immediately and told him to lose weight prior to the season, which may or may not have had something to do with his health and production. I suppose any coach could've done that, though.

Any half assed competent coach contacts all the players on a team when he's hire and tells them what he expects from them.

Whose to say Brand wasn't losing weight anyway because he knew he needed to do it?

I guess the person who doesn't think Collins had an impact says Brand was already losing the weight. The person who thinks he did have an impact doesn't.

I in no way implied that I knew one way or another, are you implying that you do?

Look at it this way, all we know is what was reported. yesterday there was a report that Iguodala missed his exit meeting, which was inaccurate and lacked all the facts.

We don't know the conversation cause we weren't there, we don't know what brand was doing before he had the conversation with collins - Brand never really struck me as a lazy do nothing in the off season like a sam or an andre miller

Nope, the only fact we have here is that Collins said he called Brand and told him he wanted him to report ten pounds lighter than what he played at the previous season.

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raro reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 12:49
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I think Collins should get credit for his work with Elton Brand this season. Even before the shoulder injury, Brand was struggling to fit in with the fast break and no half court offense of the Sixers under Cheeks. Sure, EFJ made things worse, but integration was a problem beforehand.

I gave him an eight because he turned the team around while doing a decent job with player development. I hoping for a repeat of his work with Pippen and H. Grant from 87-89 only with Turner, Thad, and Jrue. Also, a #7 defense with no center is very impressive.

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psv reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 14:47
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You're being rather selective with your assessment here. I don't think you can lump the Iverson era and post Iverson and compare the two.

For the sake of argument, we'll include Mo, DiLeo, Jordan and Collins. Of that, Mo had Brand for 23 games and DiLeo had Brand for six more. Personally, I think it's unfair to compare them to Collins.

The facts are Collins was hired, went to his players and asked them to do certain things. If they did those things, they got playing time. If they didn't, they didn't. Brand lost weight, Iguodala took fewer threes; Speights and Kapono didn't play defense so they were relegated to the bench. I don't really get the Nocioni thing either, but we didn't see much of Songalia, so it all works out.

I think Lou Wil was the only player who had a productive season under Jordan, and that's a relative term. Thad, Iguodala, Dalembert took major steps back and Willie got a ton of playing time for whatever reason.

NO ONE WANTED THE FUCKING JOB
Iverson era vs. Post Iverson plays a role here and the Sixers didn't seem to have trouble finding suitors after DiLeo if I recall.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 15:04
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If Collins gets blame for Turner not developing, than he has to get credit for Jrue. It's hard to point out the bad things and just say that the good stuff would have happened to anyone else. If there is one problem with Collins' season, it's Turner's play, which is not all of his fault. That being said, it ended on a pretty good note with Turner not looking out of place at all going up against probably the two best wings in the league in a playoff atmosphere.

Brand was healthy, and I love a lot of the stuff he does, but he's not really a throw it into the post and get you buckets kind of guy anymore. He used him pretty well as a pick and pop guy IMO.

Also, DiLeo had a slightly better season from Iguodala, which he was healthy for throughout. Can't discredit that. That's not to say He gets credit for his play, but in the team sense, he gets an A-plus for having one certifiable weapon on the defensive end, and building around it.

I don't think I've seen him get credit for getting a hell of a season (and a pretty bright future as a shooter off the bench) from Meeks. He got Thad back on track from a guy who we weren't sure about to a guy who is an asset off the bench.


How is Hawes a negative? That's on the front office. He had no other options and getting good team defense from a stiff like him is not only a positive, but a miracle. Who in the league is coaching Speights well? How many games did Brackins play in?

The Kapono thing was bad, but for a lot of the year we were having trouble finding a shooting guard. The Meeks thing cancels that out. I honestly thought he did a good job getting Nocioni out of the lineup for a lot of the year, but when Turner wasn't giving you anything, then you have to play eight guys. He had a really flawed roster.

He did do some bad things, but a step in the right direction was definitely had. It's at the point where they might be able to take a small step forward next year (4-5 more wins, a 5 seed perhaps), and build off this. I didn't feel that way two years ago.

They were more competitive than the Cheeks/DiLeo years too. I think an 8 is about right for Collins.

In November I thought Doug would retire or expire. That he forged sense, a never-say-die scrappiness and 42 wins from an underwheming, discombobulated bunch of flex players is a testament to his dedication, willpower, NBA know-how and communication skills.

To state the obvious, he did a commendable job as leader/instructor of a young amorphous group, except for his impatient marginalizing of Speights imo. His resistance to entrusting rookie Turner with more PT was understandable as the kid was timid and blundering for 3/4 of the year. Collins' biggest achievement may have been the restoration of "Edsel" Elton Brand - a return from 'junkyard to operable vehicle' wasn't a matter of time as much as it was a matter of relationship. And the tiger in Young's tank was a Collins' by-product. Meeks, formerly on periphery, became useful under his tutelege.

That first paragraph literally made me throw up in my mouth.

Do you work for Skip Bayless as a copywriter?

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Tray reply to Ty Game on Apr 29 at 13:19
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I thought we won 41.

In the regular season, it was 41.

No, I'm a long tall Pennsylvanian.

Make sure you clean the commode.

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Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 13:14
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Blog: Williams: Bench role might not be enough:

http://ow.ly/4JSRb

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tk76 reply to Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 13:24
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That's fine. He would make a nice trading chip and then Turner can step into that 6th man scorers role for next season.

If Lou is public mouthing off about being a starter, I feel that hurts his trade value because, well, he's not a starter in the NBA, and it means he doesn't know his role on a team and that he could disrupt a team.

Better for the sixers (and his trade value) if he would shut up (or at least realize he's a one dimensional scorer with big defense weakness, not enough height to be a 2 guard and not enough passing to be a point)

He is best used, and excels best, at what he is. It's a shame he doesn't realize that, and not good for the sixers if he's going to go to a new team expecting to start

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 14:20
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I'm trying to think of a team where Lou would be a good fit as a starter... and I'm not seeing it. He could be a def-acto starter for the Mavs like Terry is. Or maybe on the Sixers with Jrue guarding SG's like Kidd does for the Mavs.

Otherwise, no other starting opportunities seem like good fits for that type of gunner.

I'm sure there's a team in europe or the d-league where he'd be an excellent starter, but lou is not an nba starter, period, on any team at any time in the league, and that's why you can't find one.

He's short, he's slight, he doesn't pass, and he's weak defensively, and he doesn't have super star cred like Iverson (nor does he create he draw doubles like Iverson did.)

If there's a team that wants a maybe '50% iverson' in his prime - I don't see one in the NBA, do you?

Public, private, it's all the same to Lou. He's a chatterbug, like his head coach. A reason why Collins, near season's end, likened him to the pulse of the team. And why he went to Lou for feedback opinion on his methods of outreach to players. One viewpoint gunner to another. At this point in his career he should be itchin' to start.

But he's too small to play shooting guard and Holiday is entrenched at the point. If Holiday were 6-6, maybe Holiday could defend "2s" and Williams could take 1s, but that's not the case. The 2009-10 season proved Williams is best coming off the bench and scoring in the fourth quarter.

The old adage it's not who starts -- it's who finishes. And Williams is typically on the floor at crunch time.

Understood, about the finishing. Wasn't advocating for his starting, just recognizing his gaining SOME muscle mass and SOME maturation, and respecting his champing at the bit for starting status (wouldn't want a young player who didn't desire that). With present roster make-up, he is a valuable piece, but a quandary too because of size, as you mentioned. I've never been a Lou fan - defense is his Waterloo - but he's shown me SOME heart this season that I didn't know he had.

I gave him an 8.

The most important thing that he did during this first year is make large strides to reatore the Sixers' credibility as a legitimate NBA franchise. They were on the brink of plummeting to the Clippers/Wolves level of NBA sideshow status.

That, and he got production from EB - another year like 10-11 and they might be able to trade him.

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tk76 reply to CM on Apr 29 at 13:37
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Another year... and he will be an 18M expiring contract even if he can't play a lick.

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Apr 29 at 14:46
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if they really want to deal him, they can probably find a taker for 1.5 years right? Especially if he remains steady in his production. So really, it might only be another half season until he's gone, for those of us counting down the days...

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tk76 reply to johnrosz on Apr 29 at 14:50
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But he is so important to the Sixers right now. Without Brand you would basically have zero both at PF and C. Brand is much more important to the Sixers than what they would get in return. Unless you really want to try and dump both Iguodala and Brand, there seems little reason not to keep him around for 1-2 more years.


Even looking at Jrue/Turner etc, without setting up Brand for a short jumper, what exactly can the accomplish with a drive and dish?

Thank you tk!You speak the truth. Yes, we all know he's got a horrible contract, but he is a HUGE part of this team. Counting down the days, I just don't get. The guy gives it everything he has and was our most consistent scorer and rebounder this year. Jrue and Igoudala both got tons of assists this season by feeding Elton Brand. And his effort in the playoffs was just superlative(only wish he still had the lift to rebound a little better)

Sixers get Gasol
Lakers get Howard, Turkoglu, and Duhon
Magic get Igoudala, Bynum, and Nocioni

I win.

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tk76 reply to Marty on Apr 29 at 14:40
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Amusing (but incredibly improbable) trade.

Sixers: Brand and Gasol would work ell together. Still not good enough defensively or offensively to be a top team... but an improvement. Gasol makes 19-20M per year for another 3 years. So comes off the books the same year as Iguodala. Galso is another "non-alpha-dog" typle star FWIW. So Turner and Jrue would really need to step up their games.

Orlando: I doubt they are willing to take a step back without clearing out more salary. Bynum and Iguodala have huge contracts for the next 3 years- and they are not a contender with the roster they would have. But Orlando is sort of hosed regardless given Howard could leave and their remaining roster is brutally and horribly overpaid for forever.

3. Lakers: Interesting trade. they sort of pay through the nose for Howard- but that's what you have to do. How much longer is Kobe even a shadow of his former self?

Aside from health (which is an issue obviously) wouldn't you prefer to have bynum and gasol than just dwight howard?

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 15:04
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Age and health. Bynum + Gasol is better for right now. While Howard guarantees you have a key part of a contender for 6+ years. Partner that with the Lakers great organization and the draw of Howard/LA and you have a seamless transition from the Kobe to the Howard era.

Bynum (with health) guarantees you have a key part of connteder for the next 6+ years without giving up Gasol as long as you can.

Also, Bynum I think is better offensively than Howard - Bynum has some finesse that Howard doesn't.

Also, though no one ever thinks this way - Bynum costs X - Howard probably costs 2X - will his production be worth twice as much as Bynums (Plus the loss of Gasol) and with a restrictive CBA will you be able to sign new players?

Trading for Howard takes away one of the current greatest strengths of the lakers - being able to put 3 7 footers on the floor at the same time who don't get in each others way offensively

After reading Tom's article about Lou wanting to possibly start it got me thinking about ways to restructure this team for the forseeable future until we have some cap space:

Starting 5
1) Jrue
2) Lou
3) Dre
4) Brand
5) I have no idea (hopefully Thorn does)

Bench
Thad
Evan
Meeks

This would provide the team with the scoring punch they need from their starters, while not replacing one of their key defenders.

If we're going w/ a starting lineup w/ no shooting, I'd prefer the defense-focused option on the perimeter of Jrue, Turner and Iguodala.

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TimX reply to Brian on Apr 29 at 14:56
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What was Lou's 3pt% compared to Meek's?

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TimX reply to TimX on Apr 29 at 14:59
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I think this lineup would also give Turner a chance to handle the ball more and hopefully Meeks would provide more spacing for both Turner and Young.

In your mind should lou williams start or should the sixers just cave in to his request whether it's smart basketball or not?

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TimX reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 15:14
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Let me start by saying "I'm not a big Lou fan" however if given restrictions to his game, I don't see why he couldn't start alongside Jrue. This would give us a pretty solid team a and b approach again next year. I don't look at this as a way to be a contender, but I think it gives everyone a chance to further develop their skill sets and win more games.

That's a horrible defensive set from the jump. Bad idea

Plus lou is a ball hog who needs the ball in his hands to be productive

Lou was 5% worse. It was more like 7 or 8% before Meeks' terrible final week.

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tk76 reply to TimX on Apr 29 at 14:58
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The only way Jrue/Lou/Iggy would work is if Lou tries to re-invent himself as a completely off the ball scorer. Although Terry was able to do this in Dallas, I just don't think Lou would be willing to play off the ball.

It's going to be hard enough to get Iggy to relinquish some of his point duties to Jrue, let alone trying to pry the ball out of Lou's hands.

Meeks is the best fit as starting SG for right now- unless they upgrade him with a better model, or replace Iguodala.

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johnrosz on Apr 29 at 15:14
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9

3 pt defense has been a problem for this team since Brown left. All of a sudden, it's dramatically better seemingly with the flip of a switch. This is the same roster that was struggling to defend the arc under Cheeks/DiLeo/Jordan(obviously)...

Doug has managed to have a quality defense with one of the softest centers I think I've ever seen. Spence can't even grab a gatorade without looking like an uncoordinated oaf,, yet Doug found a way to mask the giant void they have inside for an entire season.

Makes me giddy thinking about what Doug might be able to do with a legit defensive oriented center in the future.

So Nene is opting out. Should the Sixers pursue a sign and trade deal for Nene? I honestly don't know. he is not that great of a defensive presence, but sure is an upgrade.

Iguodala would fit nicely on Denver between Lawson and Gallinari. He would give them the luxury of guarding the best wing player and fits well slotted between two jump shooter. Ty and Iggy also both are dangerous on the break.

While Nene is a legit big, and the Sixers could look to sweeten the pot, since Denver is working from a position of weakness given Nene is a FA.

Is locking into Nene through his year 34 or 35 season at a big number really a smart idea? He's going to be 29 when the season starts and when Jrue/Turner are in their prime, he'll be past his, making a ton of money.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Apr 29 at 16:48
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I'm just throwing it out there- partly because I doubt there are many "good impact moves" to be made.

personally I would be very worried that a big Nene extension could become Brand 2.0 (but without the initial upside) but maybe the team thinks it is really close?

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Apr 29 at 16:55
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Looking myopically, wouldn't a Nene/brand frontcourt cause a lot of damage in the east? I think only Chicago would be able to match-up with them in the East. So if you win the frontcourt match-up, and Jrue/Turner/Thad/Lou/Meeks break even at PG/SG/SF, then you are pretty good, No?

It sounds like repeating history w/ the Brand contract to me, only this time you're also giving up Iguodala who probably has a bigger impact on the W/L column than Nene.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Apr 29 at 17:05
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Yep, that is why I could see Stefanski making such a move for "basketball sense" and a "culture change."

Sixers should pursue Nene - not a sign and trade - and for no longer than the length of the Iguodala deal. Sign and Trade giving up Iguodala is peter/paul.

If you can get nene without giving up major peices (they can have thad for instance, and lou) for a contract length no longer than Iguodala (or brand, whomever is longer) then I'm all for it.

No giving up Jrue, Andre, Evan, Brand, hell even keep Meeks cause for his price he's pretty useful.

Thinking through things while writing leads to weirdness

Yes pursue Nene
Yes do sign & trade if necessary
Do not include core players (as above) in S&T
Do not sign contract longer than Brand/Iguodala (whoever ends second)

Profit

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 17:19
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Well its tough, because the contracts need to match up in the sign and trade.

Say Nene gets 10M his 1st year (he makes 11.3M now)

Lou makes 6M next year. So you need to find another 3-4M to make the deal work. I guess you can throw in Speights.

Lou + Speights = 8.7M

So the Sixers could take back 125% of 8.7M... which is 10.7M

So as long as Nene gets a starting salary less than 10.8M, a Lou/Speights for Nene sign and trade would work. Now you just have to get hi to accept a 3 year deal...

Well see - that's the problem in the NBA sometimes - team decides they want a guy - and then they go 'at all costs' and don't do things intelligently.

Those are the conditions where adding Nene makes sense to me - and the boundary of sense - in terms of contract length and players in volved. If you have to pay him 15 mil a year for 3 years - don't care - care if it's more than 3 years and care if you give up andre or brand or other key pieces

But adding a key piece while removing a key piece and then over paying for said piece is doubly stupid.

If Nene wants to play here - he'll agree toa deal that works with in the frame of what i established (if i'm running the sixers) or he can go play somewhere else.

The 'get him at all costs' method of free agency must stop.

Three years, $35M. I don't see that being enough to get him. If he's starting at only $10.8M, it's going to be a much longer deal than that.

I agree w/ GoSixers terms above, and I think a deal meeting those criteria is extremely unlikely.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Apr 29 at 17:39
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So Jrue/Meeks/Iguodala/Brand/Nene
Bench: Turner/Thad/Hawes

A dangerous "starless" squad. What would you expect from them in the regular season and playoffs in the next 2 seasons?

50 wins, second round appearance in the playoffs, at least.

I think a second round appearance AND a much better chance to win.

Again I go back to that 3-13.

Collins shouldn't start out 3-13 again, if nene works out. at 7-9 the sixers would have been the five seed this year, against orlando (who you believe they could have beaten in a 7 game series, right, i'm not so sure)

A lot of heads seem to be in love with the future of the Indiana Pacers, but I don't see it. Don't see the knicks doing it again next year, and I see the magic imploding this off season holding on to dwight too long and having a petulant dwight.

I think the east has a top 3 - and then a big gap between the 4/5 6-8.

The sixers are the 4/5 group right now I believe (I'm not sure the knicks will be next season) and coudl win their first round series as constructed - i'm not sure they could take any of the top 3 as constructed.

If Jrue continues to mature
If Evan grows
IF the sixers signed Nene
and IF Brand performed at the same level and Iguodala was at the same level.

I believe that team could challenge in the second round.

I don't believe this team (even if they were the 5 seed and won agains the magic) would challenege in the second round (I don't think the hawks will challege the bulls)

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Apr 29 at 22:54
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The Pacers have three players who could take a huge jump (George, Collison, Hibbert, though I doubt Hibbert will ever amount to too much), so chances are pretty decent that one of them makes the leap. George is already a pretty impressive defender. I don't think many 6'8 wings can shut down Derrick Rose, which he did in Games 3 and 4.

They're going to need one of those guys to make a leap just to get to .500 next season, and really George is the only legit youth they have. Collison will be 24 this fall, Hibbert 25 and Hansbrough 26.

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eddies' heady's on Apr 29 at 20:56
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..no game thread? ...

bummer...

I gave Doug a 7.5 - it seems like he's made changes on how he communicates with players (delegation to prevent burn out) and having the Sixers lead the NBA in fewest (offensive) turnovers per game is quite a feat considering their age and learning a new system.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rodney Buford on Apr 29 at 21:32
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the turnovers per game in the playoffs was just astounding. i couldn't believe it.

we would have annihilated the Celts...

No - the sixers (of which 'we' aren't a part) would have lost to the celtics in 6.

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eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on May 1 at 10:18
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you might not be a part, so speak for yourself. *I've* been a part for 30+ years

No, see, you haven't.

You are not a sixer - you will never be a sixers unless they recognize your brilliance and hire you on the coaching staff.

I'm a fan of the sixers
That does not make me part of the sixers.

I'm sane enough and have a full enough life to realize the difference.

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eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on May 1 at 16:42
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If you've worked for the organization in the PR department, do you give permission to say *we* then?

Or do you know my life history as well as my level of sanity?

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Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 21:58
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Story: Williams not sure if bench role is for him:

http://ow.ly/4K9Il

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eddies' heady's reply to Tom Moore on Apr 29 at 22:03
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Ahh, he's just angling for a new contract. Well, at least trying.

I like the spunk, but if he wants to be sure of such things, maybe he should try coaching.

Too bad we didn't draft Darrell Arthur, instead of taking the guy with the higher upside and all kinds of question marks. Arthur's a nice player.

Manu just hit a half-court buzzer-beater at the end of the third quarter that, given the Spurs' luck, will probably be the difference in the game.

You really can't be that dumb can you?

...so was the Coach of the Year voting before or after this (hopefully) massive massive upset?

Based on regular season only I believe

Ballots had to be turned in at end of regular season.

Video: Collins on getting fans interested in Sixers again and optimism about team's future:

http://ow.ly/4KaOX

Tell collins to talk about fan interest after the season ticket subscription number is available.

Then we'll see if the fans are really 'interested'

ahahahahaha:

@sportspickle - Tim Duncan looks really disappointed. Or he looks like the Spurs just won the NBA Finals. Tough to tell.


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