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THE Question

I'm not sure trading Iguodala equals tearing it down. To me option #2 and #3 go hand in hand. I'm for trading Iguodala to find pieces to eventually get better. I would use him to find the best available big (Sammy D, Bynum, J. Magee) there is. Just seems all of the scenarios I think of involve giving up more the Iguodala. This is where Thorn has to work some magic and earn his check.

Trading your best player for less than doesn't equate with tearing it down? It's at least some partial demolition.

Is Iggy still the teams best player? That's a question all in itself. Regardless of that, Turner gives you a very viable replacement for Iggy's. it's not as if we're going to be left with Rodney "The Sheriff" Bufford as the teams starting forward. LOL!

For it to be a question you have to provide a player who is arguably better than Iguodala.

Which means doing it for 82 games.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 1 at 12:04

Brand led the team in Points, rebounds and blocks. 1st in WS by a large margin (1st in WS/48 as well as both OWS and DWS.) 1st in DRtg. 2nd in minutes, PER, FTM, FG%, ORtg and games played. 3rd in stl, TS% and eFG%.

I know that may seem like just a bunch of numbers- but Brand was the best and most valuable Sixer on this team. Partly because there was no one else on the roster who could remotely do what he does.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 1 at 12:06

And in the stats listed where Brand was 2nd or 3rd it was generally not Iguodala who was ahead of him.

Ah, I wasn't considering Brand because he's closer to the end than the beginning of his career.

But sure, now it makes sense, dump Iguodala because Brand has many miles to go before he sleeps

Hey now.

OK, so the thing is i don't think all 4 of these paths are completely separate. If you can get Howard you don't think twice. But the odds are strongly against it so i won't even discuss it. From my perspective, the best way to go is a combination of 1 and 2. If you can get a solid offer involving high lottery picks and/or a nice young player (preferably a big man), pack Iguodala's bags. But if you can't (which is of course a possibility, even though i believe it will be possible to get a good deal unless the new CBA prohibits it) than you generally stay the course and try to improve in the meantime without causing long term damage. My belief is that you can turn this team into a 50 win team and possibly a second round team without ruining your future. And the most important aspect of this is, the better a team is, the more likely it is for a superstar to come here. Superstars become available for trades on a yearly basis. I am a firm believer that a smart trade is a much better course than just waiting for free agency or draft miracles. If a chance appears, you take it. Pure and simple.

The thing about trading Iguodala is that i don't think trading him will result into a low lottery team with absolut certainty. We can easily to expect growth and improvement from a lot of key players: Jrue, Turner, Thad, Meeks... In the same period Brand is really the only guy who is on the wrong side of his career, but even he can probably stay pretty good for the duration of his contract. Also acquiring a decent center would go a long way to improving this team as well. So if you count all those things, if you trade Iguodala for, say draft picks and a young but raw player and you add a decent center without sacrificing the long term future you basicaly get -12 wins by losing Iguodala, +7 due to the in-house improvement and +5 with a real center. That still makes this team a 7-8 seed in the playoffs IMO and you will still be able to have a high lottery draft pick from another team.

deepsixersuede on Apr 30 at 8:07

Brian, I believe in the #3 approach and feel, if this organization really believes in Jrue and Iggy they should get them a #1 scorer, if possible, that allows them to be the all around players they are and not push them to be what they aren't.

I just read a season review on Golden St. on Real G.M. . And coupled with their g.m. saying they want to improve defensively I would make this trade offer. E.Turner and Lou for M.Ellis, who shot 36% from 3 this year and is 25 years old.

Now they have a guy that gets them 22 ppg. probably and allows Meeks to move to the bench and they can draft a young p.g. to play with him and Thad there. Would a big 3 of Ellis, Jrue and Iggy possibly draw a free agent here in a year or two? Maybe.

Turner shot 32% from 3 as a rookie, and 80% from 3 in the playoffs. How is 36% a huge upgrade? Keep Turner and tell him to shoot more 3's.

Trading Turner would be a massive mistake that the franchise will regret for years to come.

Trading Turner would probably be a mistake. It's too early to say it would be 'massive' and it's foolhardy to project anything from a 5 game series long into the future.

It's nice to believe Evan Turner will show improvement next year but it's a bit too early to look at those 5 games and say anything about it.

Tom Moore on Apr 30 at 10:07

Collins: Fans 'excited about Sixers basketball again':


(With Collins video interview)

I think the management only sees two of those: 1 and 3. 2 they won't do cos they want to make money especially since the sixers have suddenly become 'exciting'again. 4 they won't dare bcos they lack the balls, long leash and stupidity to try. I could care less which way they go as long as they execute it well. I have little confidence.

Then apparently you thought a 27-win team gets one draft pick and is suddenly set for 10 years. Odd way of thinking.

eddies' heady's reply to stoned81 on Apr 30 at 12:41

No, didn't the writer just say this:

"..someone turns the corner and what originally looked like a 50 win team is suddenly a 55-win team and you've got a really good supporting cast around a budding star. You've got national attention, you've become a viable destination city, and you've got Brand and Iguodala's expiring contracts to use to improve the team even further. What once looked short-sighted suddenly has become a foundation for long-term relevancy and possible contention."

Nothing about being set for 10 years was mentioned. That's your presupposition. Nothing odd about having an expectation, however unrealistic now.

Props for finding my reply lol. Not sure how I completely messed that up.

eddies' heady's on Apr 30 at 11:30

I thought we wouldn't have to have this discussion after we lucked upon the 2nd pick in the draft last year.

eddies' heady's on Apr 30 at 11:35

Can Turner (+ filler) be traded to Memphis for Darrell Arthur and OJ Mayo? (money wise)

Or can a package be worked out where Iguodala goes for those two (other teams involved + filler/picks?)? (money wise again)

Steve V reply to eddies' heady's on May 2 at 11:05

Nothing about the way Turner played in the playoffs changes your view of him at all?

Nothing about the way anyone played in the playoffs should change your view of them. It was 5 games. No they don't mean more because it's the playoffs any more than 6 games in march should mean more than an entire college career

Where the Sixers are now, they are probably forced to do #1 (stay the course) plus re-sign Thad unless it is for crazy money.

I was all for the "nuclear option" 1-2 years ago. But now it seems too late to move Brand. He has only 1 more year before becoming a "expiring" and fills a critical need in the frontcourt. And Iguodala has less value now than he did 1-2 years ago. He is no longer the ironman or a young player. While on the flip side, the current young nucleus is too talented to get a top 5 pick, and it would probably harm their development if you tried.

Its one thing for Jrue and Turner to gradually work their way up the standings- its another to give them a taste of the playoffs and then pull the rug out from under them. I'd think that would sour their view of the franchise and make them want to leave.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Apr 30 at 12:20

So Thorn is stuck. I'm sure he wants to shake things up... but he is forced to try and keep the house in order so that maybe he can leap at an opportunity for either a quality big or even a star if it presents itself. But he is not in a position to make such a move happen.

I would hope that if they avoid stupid moves (like adding a super-long contract like Varejo or throwing the MLE at a C without a pulse) then some reasonable move will present itself. Sort of like how the the Kings got Sam less than nothing simply because Philly wanted him gone. Maybe some restraint and patience by Thorn gets them on the right side of a deal that gets them closer to 50 wins.

But in terms of landing the type of superstar they need- I just don't see it. Sure miracles happen, but it does not seem like a miracle you can MAKE happen. At least not in the next 2 years. But after that you can still dream that Jrue and Turner develop into good enough players that someone wants to force there way here around the time Brand comes off the books.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Apr 30 at 12:22

Or you can always plant incorrect rumors about Bismack and hope it cause him to slip to #16... I have a reliable source that can prove he is really 26 ;)

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Apr 30 at 12:46

eh, I'll pass on the dreaming. I've been doing that for the last 28 years. It never seems to end well. But, I guess at least it's not a nightmare, though after last year's draft it's beginning to feel like it.

I don't get why you wouldn't want Varejao, tk. His contract isn't bad for the player he is, he got 4 years 35 million or so left and the fourth year is only like 40% guarenteed I think. He's a good player and we need a center badly, I mean yeah I'd rather have Bogut, but Varejao would be a lot easier to get. Just include a draft pick in the deal and Cleveland will be happy. Look they want picks so bad they took on Baron Davis to get one.

Yeah, I'll admit he is a guy I probably do not give a fair shake to. But I really don't want him on the Sixers. We all have our favorites, and we all have the players we don't like to watch.

It would be like you suggesting to Brian to go after Aldrich or Cousins. Although in that case it truly is hate. And I don't think I hate any player all that much.

I disagree with you about it being too late to move Brand. In his entire time in Philadelphia, I don't think he's had more trade value than he does right now. He's back to being an actual player and his contract really isn't THAT long any more.

Can you get anything for him significant? Probably not, but if you can save a year salary wise that might be enough, but much like in the Nene debate, that's a step backwards. Trading Brand is a step backwards on the court because the sixers have no starting PF on the roster (and won't get one in a trade for Brand either, they'd be lucky to get salary relief)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 30 at 13:36

So what are you saying?

I feel like you won't get enough benefit by trading him to make it better than just keeping him another 1-2 years. Its not like you will make the team better right away- and I doubt the return you get will help long term more than what you could get for him next year after he is an expiring.

So why trade him now? There is no FA splash you can make with the cap space, and he won't bring back an equal, but younger talent.

I dont' really want to have to restate everything I've stated before regarding trading Brand as being PART of something, I was just disputing your point regarding Brands value.

You've taken the stance that doing nothing and staying still is your idea of the best case scenario, which only makes sense if you're already at the top.

Think the Spurs will 'stand pat' this off season? Or try and make moves to improve?

From the reading list: "Dwight, meet Jrue. How would you like to play with him for the next decade?"

It should read:
Hey Dwight, think of what Jrue could do for you?

what do we think the chances are that #1 and #3 increase attendance enough to make bigger moves possible later? Example - adding any C who can actually rebound means they win 4-5 of the close games they dropped this year, puts them at 46-48 wins and 4-5 seed going into the playoffs, BUT also ups attendance and revenue enough that another more $$-heavy upgrade that they can't afford now becomes more likely?

eddies' heady's reply to das411 on Apr 30 at 12:53

Can't afford? They're full of money already. They can afford what they want. Hell, they've been paying ex-coaches for like the last 5-6 years and still paying one now. They don't lack for money, they lack for passion. Bottomlines can cloud ardor unless you're Mark Cuban.

Ah yes, the foolish argument fans apply when a corporation that answers to stockholders owns a team. Ignoring the concepts of business, capitalism and the fact that Comcast as a whole just spent a pretty penny to buy NBC. All these things factor in.

I'm not in favor of corporate ownership in professional sports, I think it's incorrect.

But Comcast doesn't lack 'passion'. They're a business, the sixers are an asset, and that asset is about making money.

The problem is that when the sixers make the first round of the playoffs they really don't see that huge attendance burst, especially next season. What Comcast needs to see to spend more money is an increase in off season season ticket purchases, a tangible piece of evidence that the winning will lead to more money (and profit.

It's like the 'espn hates my team' argument. It's an argument fans use that really has no merit or truth, but it feels good to say.

And Comcast also owns the flyers, and spends a lot of money to run the flyers - because the fans show up and support them and thus Comcast makes profit.

Like underpants gnomes, corporate owners care about profit first.

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Apr 30 at 13:13

Nothing's foolish and you can't argue that if they can make boneheaded decisions and pay ex-coaches (now a long line of them) that they can't go over luxury tax or salary caps to sign/trade (or not trade) players to achieve relevancy. When profit supercedes ultimate winning that is a lack of passion.

Yeah, some of what you say holds water, but just because they're a business doesn't mean I have to like/agree it. Meaning, I don't remember the team worrying about "business" when Erving, and Moses, and Bobby Jones were put together to win a championship while only playing in front of a half-filled Spectrum whether a regular season game, game 1 of a first round series, or game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals. Look at some of those games and it will blow your mind how empty the arena was during what could be considered such important big games.

Sure, they weren't owned by a conglomerate back then but they had owners who weren't making a ton of money but still had the passion to win championships on the court.

Yes I can because of the amount of money involved in paying a coach compared to the player and the luxury tax and the long term deals.

Coaches are cheap compared to players and then luxury tax.

And when you PAY the luxury tax you also LOSE 'bonus' money you get from the league for being under the luxury tax.

Paying coaches doesn't affect your luxury tax but the luxury tax is a double whammy in terms of your bottom line, paying the tax and NOT getting the bonus.

I'm not saying I LIKE that Comcast owns the sixers, I just think Fans should accept the reality of being owned by comcast already and stop the whining that's not going to change.

I'm not saying you have to like it (Like I said I don't like it), but accept it. It's pointless to whine about the ownership because they are a corporation and will act in the best interests of the bottom line and the stock price, that's reality.

Sure, they weren't owned by a conglomerate back then but they had owners who weren't making a ton of money but still had the passion to win championships on the court.

How do you know they weren't making a 'ton' of money (relative to the time) - have you seen the books?

They were one of the best teams in the league and big fan draw - they had a super star people would come out to see when they were on the road. The salary structure was also vastly different.

You can't compare those 80s teams to the 2011's.

Think about this. How much money would buss have to shell out in 'today money' to keep magic johnson, kareem, worthy and all the rest? His payroll would rival the yankees

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Apr 30 at 14:06

Process of elimination would tell you they weren't making a ton of money. 1) There weren't really any TV deals sans maybe one - there was only ONE game that came on each week nationally on CBS on Sunday afternoons. 2) The arenas were all mostly half empty across the league except for maybe the Garden and the Forum and they probably weren't to capacity from game to game like today. 3) Merchandise and apparel weren't a big thing back then either. People weren't jersey crazy like they are now. 4) Ticket prices were low because of low demand due to the half full arenas and no TV exposure. 5) There were way less teams back then meaning if the league was so prosperous as a whole you would have seen expansion take place. 6) There wasn't any local/regional network coverage every night and revenues from that.

Factor operating expenses in and player/coach salaries and how much money is left to line an ownership's pocket?

Are you saying that Comcast doesn't have a right to make a profit?


Someone smarter than me can tell me where comcast spectacor is inside this massive document, point is, that the sixers are not an independent organization, they are part of a whole and the whole answers to a WHOLE lot of people, people who care more about the major things than the minor things, and saving money on the 'minor things' (Sixers and flyers are minor compared to say owning NBC Universal) is easier when cuts need to be made.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Apr 30 at 13:39

ESPN hates the Sixers because they lack stars or upside. They are not interesting.

ESPN likes the Eagles and Phillies, becasue they win and have stars.

It has nothing to do about their beliefs about the city.

Jesus Christmas I know that and said so

But be clear

ESPN doesn't CARE about the sixers, they don't hate them or like them, they like profit, and they like ratings...that's all that matters - anyone who says otherwise is wrong

They lack the smarts. Passion can hurt you as badly as it can help.

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Apr 30 at 14:22

Smart passion then :)

Since this post has taken an early pessimistic turn, how about a stat to brighten things up:

8 players in the entire league averaged 14 points, 4 boards and 6 assists this year. The Sixers had two of them.

tk76 reply to Brian on Apr 30 at 13:40

How about 15 points :)

tk76 reply to Brian on Apr 30 at 13:43

Pessimism only happens if you have unrealistic expectations.

I'm not down on the team. I like watching them, expect improvement and will enjoy seeing guys like Jrue and Turner develop.

But if my yardstick was acquiring a superstar or making the ECF in the next 2 years than it would be hopeless. But I've been a Sixer fan long enough to know I can enjoy a season without setting the bar that high. Sure, they still have to work to get their- but it just ain't happening that quickly. To much issues with contracts and talent (and other teams talent) is in the way.

Does that make me a pessimist or a realist? All I know is the only thing that gets me down is knowing that it is at least 6 more months until next season.

How about this for optimism. There have been 17 players over the last 30 years that have played 18+ minutes per game in the playoffs and averaged at least 0.09 WS/48 and PER of 17+, while playing in their first or second season and were 22 or younger. Guess who two of those guys are... (Jordan did it twice btw)


That is some company to be in...

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Apr 30 at 14:21

To stay with the pessimistic tone which lends itself to realism - those two players that accumulated those hollow stats only lead us to a .500 season. Buy hey, there's always next year right? (how many more years am I going to say that?)

I love watching the team too and enjoy the journey of a season thoroughly but the destination seems to be an infinitesimal amount more and more each year. In other words, chances are zero they'll ever win a title again in my lifetime.

Tim Duncan post game quote.

"We were hoping at some point that they would fold under the pressure, make some mistakes through that pressure and they didn't.

There's something about that statement that bothers me. I can't entirely put my finger on it but it's just not 'right'.

RSWKnight reply to GoSixers on Apr 30 at 18:58

What you probably don't like is the lack of Agency in his comment. Duncan's statement is that they were relying on the situation to cause Memphis to slip versus the Spurs themselves creating the pressure that would cause the mistakes. It is a strangely passive, almost defeatist statement, acknowledging that you cannot handle your opponent with external assistance (i.e. Refs, the 'Situation' etc).

(Assuming you meant urgency instead of agency) that might be it. THe statement indicates that they didn't feel they could beat Memphis 'straight up' unless Memphis caved to pressure.

It sounds like a player who lacked the confidence in his team to win. Which seems odd, but maybe it's just an in the moment thing but it's a very defeatist kind of thing.

RSWKnight reply to GoSixers on Apr 30 at 19:20

Actually, both Agency and Urgency fit.

He is removing the Spurs from the equation, as if they have no influence in the matter. That's what I meant by Agency.

It indicates a lack of confidence, lack of agency and a level of resignation that is very unsettling, especially in a former MVP/future Hall of Famer.

Well played, I mean I know that use of the word agency, I just don't hear it that much except in old time english movies. I get what you meant, cool

I'm curios to see what the spurs do this off season. They might have guys with trade value but at the same time, this is the test of the small market contender and 'fans' coming out...if they go into rebuilding (like maybe they should) how will it go?

Tray reply to GoSixers on May 1 at 0:19

It's also used in philosophy and the law all the time.

Anyway, I thought it was a somewhat surprising quote. It seems unusually frank to say, "this is a young team, we were expecting them to blow it at some point." Even LeBron, who isn't too media-savvy, is way too politically correct to say something like that about the Sixers.

RSWKnight reply to Tray on May 1 at 1:43

I think he went beyond that. Sounded like he knew if the young team didn't blow it, the Spurs were toast. LeBron is far too arrogant to admit he can beat, imo.

Speaking of cracking, I thought if the Sixers got the series to a game 6, they stood a real chance because Miami has shown a propensity for fracturing under pressure and try to play "Hero-Ball". Miami had already started to do so during Games 4 & 5, but they got away with it.

RSWKnight reply to GoSixers on May 1 at 1:38

Yeah, I am very interested too. They need more size, but they might not have the resources to make the move. IMO, The major issue is that Jefferson turned out to be a failed reclamation project. They were hoping that recasting him as the athletic wild card supporting the Big 3 would allow him to make a major impact as a X-factor, while lessening the load on the Big 3. He flopped, big time, so now they are pretty stuck. Unless they decided to flip Jefferson for another experiment, like a JRich or Pietrus or somebody like that. Otherwise, they'd be stuck being 1st round fodder.

On that note, the Spurs are an interesting thought experiment for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which being the Lockout debate about the financial health of the league.

The whole "Small-Market Contender" thing is something that the Union likes to use as an example of how the system works just fine. Using shrewd drafting and smart management, a small burg like San Antonio won more titles during the last dozen years than Boston, Miami, New York, Houston and Chicago combined in the same period.

Meanwhile, Stern likes to point out that only the big time luxury tax payers tend to flourish in the modern NBA. The rich teams(especially those in Destination Cities) don't have to be geniuses to be successful. The Spurs were the exception that proved the rule; they caught lightning in a bottle twice during the lottery, and built a dynasty due to that luck supported by incredibly shrewd, next-gen thinking (drafting quality foreign players and stashing them overseas). But they were also aided by having the "right" stars fall to them. Neither Duncan nor Robinson minded being the Big Fish in a small pond; neither of them really sought out the spotlight. So, San Antonio was a great fit for them both personally and professionally. It speaks volumes that the one time Duncan considered leaving, he was looking at Orlando, not LA or NY or another major market.

To Stern's point, of the "Elite 8" teams left, arguably the only "small market" teams left are OKC(another Lightning in a Bottle group led by a guy who seems to really enjoy the OKC lifestyle) & Memphis(a low-seed whose best player was a very talented former problem child/vagabond just happy to find a home and who beat a Small Market team to get there). Atlanta is debatable, though they beat another small-market team to advance too.

Everybody else (Boston, Miami, Chicago, LA & Dallas) are big market teams who can afford to buy their way out of problems and into success.

So, San Antonio's ability to retool is a big thing on a lot of levels.

In relation to Brians Dream Twitter

Azzy (Montreal, Quebec, Canada): Hey Ric, I heard that Dwight Howard confronted you about those rumors that he's maybe heading to LA, is it true?

Ric Bucher: "Confront" is a little strong, but yes, he asked me as soon as I walked into the locker room where he was going. Half playful, half-why-are-you-stirring-this-up-and-making-me-deal-with-it. And I completely understand his frustration. Hard to have a completely frank, honest conversation in the middle of a locker room with teammates and other reporters looking on with keen interest.

All I can tell you is this: I wouldn't have broached the subject if I hadn't been told under no uncertain terms, by someone who should know, that Dwight will opt out of his last year in Orlando and by GMs that they already know, based on their conversations, that Magic president Otis Smith knows he's going to have to do something.

RSWKnight on Apr 30 at 19:12

I would pick #1, while keeping my eye peeled for #3. The Sixers biggest need is an Athletic Bruiser who can rebound, defend, run the floor, set solid screens while being able to catch & finish inside. If he has a post game, so much the better.

Beyond that, I am willing to see how Jrue and Turner continue to develop. I believe that each could become a 17-18+ PPG player, especially once Turner refines his jumper. Thad would be the cornerstone of the 2nd unit, a focused burst of energy & scoring.

A move I'd strongly consider would be packaging Lou & Speights plus other considerations to see if they could move up to get one of the few quality Bigs. Moving Lou I believe would be key, because it would allow ET more time on ball. ESPN has said that several teams, if they fail to get a top-2 pick, might trade out altogether.

Maybe a team like TOR, so offense heavy, might have bit on it. Maybe SAC?

eddies' heady's reply to RSWKnight on May 1 at 10:47

So no Turner is pre-MVP Kobe this summer? Thought you retired the knight...

If Turner averages that many points I will never post here again.

But say Jrue and Turner average 18 ppg, where exactly are they leading us to by doing that? If you have faith that those two are eventually going to be our best players along with Thad leading the bench charge, where are you going as a team with them holding those mantles? Do you really see them being a duo you can rely on in say the eastern conference finals?

RSWKnight reply to eddies' heady's on May 1 at 12:02

I said Turner's athleticism could be similar to post-MVP Kobe, who uses his guile, strength and skill to get himself free.

Could I see them being a key part of a Conference Finalist? Sure, provided you have an Athletic Bruiser or two to control the paint. It is all about an efficient offensive approach. Thad showed high efficiency, Jrue is also potentially efficient as well, if he gets better at drawing contact. If Turner can continue to improve as well, that means your starters include two guards that should be able to produce easy post-up offense against virtually every team. Evan is already a skilled post scorer, especially for a rookie.

If they can do that, I see no reason they can't be the lead scorers for a conference finalist

eddies' heady's reply to RSWKnight on May 1 at 16:59

Sure Turner can get himself free but then what? I'd think most can agree that he'll never sniff anything close to pre or post MVP Kobe simply because he lacks the finshing skills. The guy either gets swallowed or throws up a ridiculously off-balance shot.

Post up offense? From your two guards? What I glean from this is that you think just because two players can post up smaller players that somehow a majority of the team's offense will come from that? That's very unlikely and as soon as you went to the well successfully with either of them a few times it would be countered and doubled or shut down completely.

Can't believe you feel they would be conference finals worthy as lead scorers just because of the potential to post up smaller guards. You and I know that post offense from perimeter players is very rare and not exactly the most successful way to achieve efficient offense leading to a conference finals appearance. Even Riley didn't post up Magic that frequently.

RSWKnight reply to eddies' heady's on May 1 at 19:57

About Turner's finishing skills: At the moment, he is a capable finisher who is simply inconsistent. He can get to his spots, but he sometimes goes a step too far and runs into trouble. That comes with experience, especially when you lack the elite athleticism to cover for your mistake. You are not a believer, which you've made abundantly clear. Still, I've seen enough of Turner this year to feel confident that he could be a 16-18 ppg scorer within the next 2 seasons, certainly before his rookie deal is up.

You underrate the importance of being him able to shake free regularly. It is why Turner has had impactful offensive games versus legit defenses like Miami(3 times including the regular season opener) & Boston. He has shown the knack to get separation on a regular basis.

About the modern history of post offense involving point guards and wing players on dominant teams:

First, Magic orchestrated their 90 Conference finalist and 91 NBA Finalist team primarily from the post. He ran their half-court offense from the block. Michael Jordan primarily worked from the post for the last 4 of their 6 championships, he started really using the post as a major weapon during the 2nd playoff run. He was Chicago's primary low-post option. Detroit used to use Adrian Dantley as a post-up Wing, and also used Mark Aguirre in a similar fashion. Bird was a post-up wing, especially during his later years. Kobe works from the post during this run. While Billups used his post-game quite often in a similar fashion. Paul Pierce works from his offense on the elbow for a good portion of his offense, especially when Rondo is absent.

It is about working your advantages in a half-court offense to not always have to penetrate the defense off the dribble. One of the benefits of posting your perimeter players is that they tend to be capable passers. Both Jrue and Turner are already good passers who, if doubled, could find the open man.

eddies' heady's reply to RSWKnight on May 1 at 21:27

Shaking free and being able to do hardly nothing with it, go hand in hand here. The guy will not get to those spots or finish things for two inevitable reasons, a) he doesn't have a consistent enough perimeter jumper for others to respect, and b) he can't overcome the athleticism disadvantage once reaching the paint.

Gameplanning has to be taken into account, if he ever shows the propensity to, as he says, "dominate".

And really, look at the names of the guys you referenced, Magic, Mike, Dantley, Aguirre, Bird, Kobe, Billups, and Pierce, they are of the clear-cut above the rest variety. While our two guys, and surely one of them, has shown nothing of being the sort; passing skills out of a double or not.

RSWKnight reply to eddies' heady's on May 1 at 21:34

Of course, athleticism helps one be able to finish easier, but its not absolutely a requirement. One can finish inside using skill, positioning and angles.

He has shown the ability to get himself free and already acquits himself well in the post when given the opportunity. The Coaches(all of whom know more than either of us) during the preseason were raving about his post-up skills.

You choose to underrate his talent, we will see by the end of his rookie deal. IMO, he is a still a future star, who needs to refine his perimeter jumper, which both he and his coaches freely admits. Given that he is going to work with the guy who helped Jameer become such a consistent shooter, I really don't believe his J will be an issue moving forward, especially off Catch & Shoots.

Turner shot about 48% the last 2 months of the season including playoffs. He has thus already improved his shot dramatically. This doesn't go with eddie's theory, of course.

RSWKnight reply to stoned81 on May 1 at 22:23

I gotcha. As you said, he's already improved his shot some, while also becoming much better off the ball(numerous cuts for scores against Miami). Turner seems to be a rhythm shooter, which should not be a problem in the very near future.

Yup, agreed. Turner is going to be an all-star.

Tray reply to stoned81 on May 2 at 2:36

No no no, we have no idea what Turner will be. All we know is that this season wasn't very encouraging. He isn't a bust yet, but saying he will definitely be an All-Star is crazy. He has, perhaps, a 10% chance of becoming one one day.

Jeff reply to Tray on May 2 at 12:11

*Commence pulling percentage out of ass*

Tray reply to Jeff on May 2 at 12:36

Well, why don't we take a sample of really high draft picks who had completely unremarkable rookie seasons, during most of which they were offensive liabilities, and see whether they became All-Stars? People are just seeing what they want to see. "Oh, he has a great handle, he can get where he wants to on the court." Well yeah, that's why he's in the NBA. Whether or not that translates into him becoming a great player depends on all kinds of factors.

tk76 reply to Tray on May 2 at 12:38

It is completely possible that nobody in the top 14 of the 2010 draft makes an All star game... ever.

Jeff reply to Tray on May 2 at 14:16

I suppose that depends on your definition of "unremarkable."

eddies' heady's reply to RSWKnight on May 2 at 12:05

If you're going to say I underrate his talent, then aren't you guilty of overrating it? I go by what I've seen and what he's shown all year. 4 games vs good defenses doesn't exactly spell consistency and production is hooked to the hip with consistency, to me.

What about the other 70 games where he basically pulled disappearing acts vs good and bad defenses? We're going to go through the summer only cherry picking 2 decent playoff games vs the Heat, one of which he was unusually hot from outside?

Do you think Shannon Brown is a future star?

I tend to want to keep Iguodala because I don't think we'll get nearly enough back for him to make the deal much more than a salary dump, and I think it's at least possible that Jrue and Iguodala could combine, once Brand leaves, with some other big piece to contend. If we could get Greg Monroe, or even Ed Davis, for him, that would be one thing. Even Gerald Henderson, who played very well once Wallace got traded and who is an extremely promising defender, might be someone worth talking about, though I'm sure Charlotte doesn't want to trade for a big contract. But when you start talking about players like Aminu, I really can't see the point. Aminu had a worse year than Turner. He shot 39% from the field, took nearly 40% of his shots from behind the arc, and shot 31% from there. And he's 6'9. Would you trade Iguodala for Turner, if Turner had the season he had on another team? I doubt anyone here would.

RSWKnight reply to Tray on May 1 at 1:47

Agreed. I am not interested in simply dumping him, and there really isn't any realistic trade that would be worth moving him for. Plus, people are underrating just how much his teammates enjoy playing with him. Brand calls him the "most unselfish guard" he's ever played with. Holiday and Turner both refer to him as a leader, with Turner calling him an "older-brother" figure.

So, the chemistry issue means the talent would have to really worth it.

Tom Moore on May 1 at 8:18

Column: Holiday capable of becoming a primary scoring option for the Sixers:


deepsixersuede reply to Tom Moore on May 1 at 10:25

Tom, I see Holiday's upside as a C.Billups type player who scores 15 ppg. but can make big shots. I hope they don't go the Iggy route and try to make him what he isn't. Give Turner the chance to be the goto guy and if he isn't, than go get one, in my opinion. Even J.Hamilton, who may be our pick, seems to be a more natural scorer.

You see his upside as 15 PPG?

Jrue averaged 14 PPG this year, and averaged 17 ppg when Iguodala was out for 15 games.

I guess if you are expecting the team to furnish him with teammates that are better scorers then you could make an argument that he does not score more... but I see Jrue scoring 16+ PPG next year. And he should be at least a 17+ PPG guy in the near future.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 1 at 12:17

From Tom's article:

"Collins said. "I don't even think Jrue has scratched the surface. To me, Jrue can contend for the assist title, he can be an all-defensive player and be a 17- to 20-point-per-game scorer."

Rumor: Collins is dumping Thad Young for contract irresolution, is revving up a May-to-December Holiday love affair.

deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on May 1 at 12:52

tk, I don't mean it as a rip of Jrue, but would rather he become top 5 in assists/turnovers and defense. Asking him to do that and put up 17 to 20 ppg. may be a bit much. I always felt Billups could put 25 pts. up any time he wanted but his career average is 15 per game.In Detroit he never had great scoring, similar to what Jrue may have here. Turner/Hamilton , Iggy/Prince , and Elton/Sheed seem on similar ground average wise.

So we just need Ben Wallace then. :)

deepsixersuede reply to Chunky Soup on May 1 at 13:05

How does Doug compare to L.B. as a defensive coach? Suppose he is allowed to add salary this summer and the Sixers make these 3 moves; draft C.Singleton; sign Sam; and trade Spieghts for an active, long, big [J.Hill,D.J.White,J.Thompson,-----]; could this team be top 3 defensively?

RSWKnight reply to deepsixersuede on May 1 at 13:14

The Sam part would be an interesting question in and of itself. Resigning Sam would imply that it was all Stefanski's idea in getting rid of him, especially if Doug 'welcomes' him back.

If Sam, properly humbled/chastened after a year in the Zoo that is SAC, came back ready to play AND Collins could get him to buy in(a really BIG issue), then I could see them being an elite defensive team, especially if they add a supporting big capable of rebounding and defending in the draft.

I think they could be right up there. Hard to see the Sixers signing Sam again though. I was kind of kidding a little bit, obviously Ben Wallace was an incredible player. We should be so lucky.

For the past 9 years Chaincey has averaged 17.3 pts/game. I think you can throw out his first 5 years were his numbers were pulled down due to not playing starters minutes.

Even looking at his career numbers, Billups averages 17.3 pts/36 min. I see no reason why Jrue should not be able to put up at least as good of scoring numbers. And Billups was playing on a low scoring Pistons team for most of his career.

What remains to be seen is whether Jrue will be on winning teams the way Chauncey was...

But I have always seen Jrue as being much more of a Gary Payton than a Chauncey Billups. Payton had a stretch of 9 years in his prime where he averaged 21 pts and 8 assists per game on good teams while being an elite defender. That is what Jrue should be shooting for.

I think the only way the Sixers will ever win a championship again, is if Kobe, Lebron, Derick Rose, Dwight Howard and Blake Griffin all decided to sign to the Sixers for 100,000 each...

in other words never.

tk76 reply to jimbon on May 1 at 12:14

I assume by "ever again" you mean in the next 5 years?

never mind that this year's team, even with all of the holes it had, still managed to find ways to beat the Heat, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs and Magic (yea yea, even though that was right after they blew up their team) while hanging in til the last minute against the Lakers, Mavs and Thunder...

I'm all for making a move to upgrade the center position. We can't keep putting Brand there when Hawes doesn't get it done. I don't really care if Hawes comes back for one more year, but it better be in a bench role. He can be the new Battie. We just need a guy who can play D, grab some boards, and finish around the rim. If we get that then we can be a fifty plus win team going forward with some improvement from the young guys.

tk76 reply to Chunky Soup on May 1 at 14:47

We need a Kemp to Jrue's Gary Payson. A guy who can catch and score on the move and be able to finish contested looks at the basket. Both Brand and Hawes struggle in that area. That is why the need a Bismack/Ibaka type.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 1 at 14:48

Or this is how I worded it at LB:

I think the notion of a raw, athletic big is intriguing for the Sixers because Jrue and Turner could spoon-feed a guy near the rim. Then maybe down the road they develop a P&R combo.

While their current bigs have some skill, but struggle athletically catching and finished on the move or finishing in traffic near the rim. Guys like Biyambo, Ibaka, De"andre Jordan, Mcgee and Favors all more or less fill that role. Just not sure how Thorn acquires that type of player anytime soon… but there is time give Jrue is only 20.

deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on May 1 at 16:44

Tk, I am going to quote myself in a conversation with my brother after watching Bismack's you tube clip on n.b.a.draft.net; "he looks like a young S.Kemp".

Yeah, I sure hope the Sixers find the right big to pair with Jrue while he is still young.

I'm interested to see the Year 2 effect in terms of individual player readiness to compete nightly and, in some cases, to sacrifice minutes/stats for good of the whole. This past season's situation was optimum for getting charges collectively on board. Wouldn't bet on a drop off in esprit de corps, but it's feasible.

RSWKnight reply to Ty Game on May 1 at 13:19

I don't know if that might happen, because I like Collins' CEO approach this year, combined with the internal leadership of Dala & Brand. Holiday's post-season comments about working out with the young players to help improve chemistry even faster also speaks to him taking ownership of the team too. Those things should keep things moving forward, imo

Yeah, larger issue is roster movement. I take Holiday's & Turner's exuberant post-Game 5 pledges with a grain of salt. They were thrilled to be on the court with Lebron & D-Wade and experience some individual success. They're young, excitable, naturally self-involved.

RSWKnight reply to Ty Game on May 1 at 13:48

Well, given that both Jrue and Turner have demonstrably considerable work ethics, I get the feeling that they are quite ambitious and wanting to reach their ceilings.

No doubt both are ambitious. The doubt is their games, less so in Jrue's case.

RSWKnight reply to Ty Game on May 1 at 20:05

On that note, I think Turner's ego is a help for the Sixers. He wants to be great, so I think he'll put the work in. One of the things I noted was how well he was moving off the ball during the Miami series. Going from a guy who needed to have the ball on a string to a player who was moving and cutting very well to get himself open for easy looks was a good start.

HendrikDB on May 1 at 13:46

Sign Greg Oden and hope for some Buckeyes Miracles! Sure, he's a risk but a he's worth it. I have no idea how that would work cap space wise, which will probably be the biggest downside...but think about it. It gives the Sixers (if he gets healthy again) a young dominant center, which they lack the most. Brand and AI can go for another run and eventually fade out without doing anything drastic about your roster. You can even trade some junk and try to get something better.

Jrue, Meeks, Turner, Thad, Oden, Lou sounds great as a core. Brand and AI can play out their contracts while Jrue and Turner get much needed playoff experience.

Then again, if Oden turns out a bust...then what?

Hmm...maybe that long layoff isn't so good?

Or maybe OKC just doesn't have the defense to defend 2 7 footers (let alone 3 in th Lakers)

Or maybe Memphis is really that good :). To be honest none of this is a huge surprise. In the playoffs it's all about matchups so regular season performance against the teams you meet in the playoffs is usually a very good indicator. Memphis was 2-2 with the Spurs and has actually won the season series with the Thunder 3-1.

Anyway i am really impressed with Randolph and M.Gasol this postseason. They are absolutely dominant thus far. They might be even better than P.Gasol an Bynum right now... That's a scary thought...

deepsixersuede reply to Xsago on May 1 at 16:56

Isn't it amazing how the perception of Z.Randolph has changed in a few years. I keep hoping that winning could get Spieghts to buy in and change.

How is R.Gay feeling these days. If he was to be able to come back during these playoffs it would make for an interesting dynamic with the Battier addition and all.

Gay's arm is in a sling. He's not coming back.

Man oh man, as obnoxious as the Heat are, it sure is nice to watch the Celtics get bitch-slapped this badly!

Collins ends up second in NBA Coach of the Year balloting:


tk76 reply to Tom Moore on May 1 at 20:18

Good for him. He deserves the credit IMO.

But in some ways next year might be an even bigger challenge. Not sure he can wring much more success out of this squad as constructed- but it would be nice to see the individual players continue to develop.

I predict the leading scorers next year are Jrue and Thad.

RSWKnight reply to tk76 on May 1 at 21:03

I agree with your premise. I would not be surprised if Jrue & Thad end up being primary scorers

eddies' heady's reply to RSWKnight on May 1 at 21:29

If so, where do you see Andre or EB then?

RSWKnight reply to eddies' heady's on May 1 at 21:45

Preferably, EB plays around 30-32 mpg, so he probably won't generate enough attempts to be the team's leading scorer. If Jrue can push his average into the upper teens(17ish, I don't believe Brand will get enough shots to crack 16.

Thad, as the focal point of the 2nd unit, can and will put up shots. Plus Collins wants him stretching his range out to the arc, which could give him some spot-ups that can bolster his totals too.

Dala is an X-factor. If completely healthy, he might score enough, even as a complementary weapon, to lead the team. Especially because Iguodala gets himself into the open floor for transition baskets. The reason I believe he might not pass Jrue is that he has a tendency to overpass, which leads him to pass up shot opportunities to search for a better look. That, and the fact that Jrue is a better spot-up threat and 3-point shooter, which adds more points for him as well.

Iguodala is not a scorer. Brand is a nice scorer, but will slowly become less a factor these last 2 years of his contract.

Thad is the most efficient and dangerous offensive weapon on this team. They will increase his role as quickly as he can handle it.

deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on May 2 at 7:31

It is a big summer for Thad, and I don't mean his contract situation. Hopefully he expands his game some and works on using his right hand once in a while.
Miami showed he will be gameplanned for bigtime.

I think Turner may lead the team next year, if his progression resembles what it was like in college.

I didn't like the rumor I heard that R.Ayers was replacing Magee to help with his shooting. :)

Hopefully he expands his game some and works on using his right hand once in a while

The other off seasons where he didn't expand his game much don't bode well for your hope

What about big Al ?
I think he is on the market for the right value,i.e. cap space, a 1st rnd pick and young talent.
Noce (expiring), Hawes (sign n trade, white big center Jazz seems to love those), Speights (filler), 2011 draft pick, maybe one more sweetner..
Big Al gets you a post presence who could produce 19,6 pts, 9,7 rebs, 1,6 blks. Not much of a defender but could make things equally scoring wise against any big man in the league. His contract expire the same year as Elton´s so this is a plus.
If the 76ers had Big Al against the Heat they should at least be playing in game 7 with a great chance of uppset team Hollywood.. A huge upgrade over hawes plus could make things easier for EB and keep him fresher trough the year.
Maybe get Raja back too, to make a sweetner in the deal, expensive player for his production now a days, but a leader, defender and 3pt shooter. His contract expire together with Elton´s too.

So with Jrue, Turner, Iggy, EB and Big Al as starters and Lou, Raja, Thad if resingned, Meeks, a free agent big. This team could make at least ECF giving Jrue Turner, Meeks, Thad great expirience and when EB`s, Big Al`s and Raja´s contract expires thats about US$ 36 plus million in cap space and Iggy´s contract expire the next year..

Tray reply to ELF on May 2 at 0:52

No, we would not have had a great chance of upsetting Miami with "big Al." Look at how Utah was doing with Williams, Millsap (a better player than "big Al"), and "big Al." I don't really think he's a center, either, so I don't get how Brand and he play together

deepsixersuede reply to Tray on May 2 at 7:38

It seemed to me that he stepped on Milsaps' toes a bit as far as touches this year and Milsap played further from the hoop a lot. That is an interesting team to watch come draft night with 4 bigs already[ including Okur] and 2 high picks. Would it surprise anybody if Collins goes after Okur, if healthy, using Nucioni's contract as bait.

ELF reply to Tray on May 2 at 10:27

I know this is not an ideal trade, that Al Jefferson is not a center I agree too but he is way better at 5 than Hawes, Speights and even Dalembert, he is better at 5 than anyone the Sixers had from 9, 10 years ago . His PER is higher than any other player in Sixers uniform, he is a good rebounder for his career and a post presence.
I was trying to meet the requirements of the post, increase the team without touching the nucleus and with a plan for future cap space..
The Sixers could still score spreading the wealth, Al in the post, Brand mid-high post, Jrue outside and penetration, Iggy cutter, fastbreak and Turner or Meeks taking the oportunistc shots..
Big Al was just an idea that came to mind, maybe Gortat would be better but the way he played in phoenix,the Suns will not surrender him with out a big compensation, and his salary goes beyond EB´s..
Big men with some talent are very hard to be avaliable, if the Sixers dont get AL Jeff. The nets might do it if they think Howard would resign with the magic or would accept a trade only to LA..
I dont know when Blake Griffin hits the market, anyone ?

Tray reply to ELF on May 2 at 12:37

Yeah, I'd prefer Gortat.

Let me start this post off by saying, I love Jrue Holiday. But if the Grizzlies bounce the Thunder from the playoffs, do the Thunder think about moving Westbrook? I mean, can you have two alpha-dogs on your roster like him and Durant, or do they both want to be "The Man"? Wouldn't this trade make sense for BOTH teams: Jrue and Igoudala for Westbrook, Sefolosha, & Nate Robinson (cap purposes)? I'm happy to argue, but I think Westbrook is a superstar. He's only two years older than Jrue and you have him under your control (contractually) for the next two years, giving you time to move an expiring Brand next summer for something valuable and becoming an exciting destination for potential FAs. Again, I love Jrue and I think the Sixers can become winners with him as a focal point, but if the object is to get a #1 guy, I think Westbrook is worth at least a call.

Turtle Bay reply to Marty on May 2 at 11:35

I don't see the Thunder moving Westbrook. Their model is predicated on developing their young nucleus together, and they already have an Iguodala-light (very light) in Sefolosha. Jrue and Iguodala would be a very valuable trade package for a lot of teams, but probably less so for the Thunder management.

If Westbrook doesn't start realizing he's not the primary shooter, scorer, they'll have a problem in Oklahoma city

tk76 reply to Marty on May 2 at 11:49

Unless there develops some big rift between Westbrook and Durant- I don't see why they would want to move him for another PG.

Although I'm sure they would love Iguodala. If only they could have traded Iguodala for Ibaka and filler 1 years ago.

Hard to picture Kevin Durant turning on a teammate, especially Westbrook, but losing can do that to you. Still, don't think it would happen.

well if Sam Presti really is a 'genius' it won't take Durant to turn on Westbrook. If he sees it won't work long term (and westbrook needs to realize he's not a primary any more) he'll trade westbrook before it devolves into chaos and thus maximizing his value.

Scottie Brooks needs to get in Westbrook's face and demand the man pass the ball. As for Presti, he's fairly good but I wouldn't go so far as "genius." He had a couple great draft picks in Westbrook and Ibaka, but Cole Aldrich over Ed Davis was one of the dumbest picks ever (did anyone think Aldrich would be good?). And in my opinion he overpaid Perkins by a lot. If the new CBA brings a hard cap, it might be tough to keep both Westbrook and Ibaka because Perkins is eating a lot of money for 4 years.

tk76 reply to stoned81 on May 2 at 13:26

I think Rose's fame for being a somewhat inefficient, high volume PG is in Westbrook's head. I'm sure he thinks: "That should be me."

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