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Asking Out?

Court_visioN on May 5 at 3:27


deepsixersuede on May 5 at 8:15

As soon as Miami put together their juggernaut, Iggy's value leaguewide increased bigtime. We are seeing in the Boston series how valuable wing defense has become in the east.

If Collins and Thorn work out a C.Singleton type for the draft and he wows them athletically, and they feel he and Thad can defend the 3 position well than maybe, just maybe, you look to move him.

Combine my last comment with if moving Iggy frees up caproom to bring in a big than , yes, I make the move. For his sake I hope he gets to play a S.Marion role next to a guy like Dirk or B.Griffin in the future.

Having a player that's able to defend the other ted best wing is an excellent strategy but what about the concept of making the opposing wing player play defense? There are two ends of the basketball court.

Yeah I think if Miami goes to the finals, there will an Easter Conference wide freakout and Iggy will be coveted much more than we think.
Such is the power of superstars in the NBA.

eddies' heady's on May 5 at 8:43

Nah, he doesn't have an ego. He's not bigger than the team.

If sixers trade Iggy, i would like them to go after J.R Smith or Nick Young, or someone who can take plenty of shots and keep the scorer role off of jrue.

Nick young?


Dear god

Notice it wasn't "make" a ton of shots. It was "take" a ton - LOL. Well, yeah, those guys would work under those guidelines.

I think you are giving this city a little of a bad rap. Yes we've been hard on some of our star players but Iguodala never became a star. THAT'S why he got such harsh treatment. Fans saw the physical tools, the flashy highlights and the will to play hard but he never became a fan favorite.
Why?He couldn't put up big scoring games. That's what appeals to part-time fans. Blame it on the the fans wanting him to fill Iverson's shoes, maybe. Seeing a guy score 27-28 points a night brings fans out to see him play. Nobody want to but tickets to see a guy play Iguodala's style of basketball. There's no appeal in that.
Real basketball fans love him. My mom still asks who Iverson plays for.

I think you are giving this city a little of a bad rap. Yes we've been hard on some of our star players but Iguodala never became a star.

I think you're wrong on so many levels usually and this solidifies that. The reason Iguodala never became a 'star' in the eyes of this ridiculous city is that when a guy gets more money they suddenly expect him to be a different player. He's the same all around player he's always been.

This city chews people up and spits them out because they don't have the common sense to comprehend what a player is and isn't capable of, plus there's the whole racial bias thing that still permeates the city.

"As soon as Miami put together their juggernaut, Iggy's value leaguewide increased bigtime" ... off we go into the wild blue yonder. How is that premise justified?

His actual value will be ascertained only when/if Sixers move him, a potential action that appears inexorable, given his skipping out on Thorn-Stefanski-Collins 'exit meeting' following another 1st round playoff ouster, wing talent logjam with younger Turner on board, his "eccentricities" and his unpopularity among fans, however misguided they may be. Ironic, that the team's "China" is now in China following PCOM news spill. Will his absence make the organization's heart grow fonder? Time will tell.

jkay reply to Ty Game on May 5 at 9:53

there's no wing log jam. Turner couldn't make it to the floor period.
But yeah, news of his discontent will hurt the negotiation and his value.

Not "period" ... 23.0 mpg regular season, 17.4 in playoffs. Evaluation of his play or contribution or readiness or fit is another matter.

Calling a 'jam' at the wing because of Evan Turner is like saying the sixers don't need big men cause they have Hawes, Speights, and Brackins.

None of them have shown that they're ready to contribute on a real team ready to make a run towards the title.

But it is a handy 'dump Iguodala' thing.

Speaking of which, for more than a year people have been talking about how the sixers need to get rid of Iguodala cause he won't fit with Turner, before Turner got here.

So even though he was (and is) the sixers best all around player - many fans and media wanted to hand the team over to a guy who hadn't played a single NBA game.

I wonder what the sixers record would have been if they dumped Iguodala so Turner could be the man right away

jkay reply to Ty Game on May 5 at 11:27

23mpg, or which a majority were token starts when Iguodala was out or games where he would be on and get to play till the 4th. my point is that he didn't even play much, so you can even start to make that argument.
When he did in the playoffs, I believe the results of having he, Iguodala and Holiday on the floor at the same time were quite positive.

Charlie H on May 5 at 9:34

Brandon Roy?

So you'd trade Iguodala for a bench player?

Thinking of the draft, who do you think we are targeting? I like the Morris twins and that gives us a reason to get rid of that stiff M16 (you too hawes), but with how terrible the draft is they probably will get picked in the lottery. Faried could be an energy guy playing the Reggie Evans role or we could take a flyer on Reggie Jackson so we could actually have a real back up pg.

I really don’t like the center prospects in free agency, but I have to see Hawes drop another pass or get blocked on another dunk im gonna break things (please die Stefanski). Really out of the “centers” in the league where does he rank early 20’s at his best maybe.

I hope when we trade Iggy (which I don’t want to do) they don’t think of it as a salary dump (yes you Kaman) and it makes “basketball sense” (sigh… Stefanski). And when I look at what can we really get back for him I don’t know. The only trade that I could stomach is for Al Jefferson cause he only has 2 years left and he is not a total stiff on D (but pretty close).

And one more thing, Thad is not a starter (Cooney) it really frighting when you call yourself a reporter and supposedly “watched” the sixers and can’t see that I mean really I love the guy but I close my eyes every time he takes a 15 footer but I guess his body language is ok with you so we will give him a pass.

dumb Andre, really dumb.

Charlie H on May 5 at 9:54

This is bad news, if it's true. Iguodala keeps to himself, so maybe it's just people making stuff up. Are exit interviews a common practice now? Are they mandatory? I believe Thorn when he says it's no big deal, though I guess he has to say that.

It looks like Thorn is going to be faced with a choice between Thad & Iguodala, but I hope they keep both. If I had to choose, I'd take Andre.

No one has defended Iguodala more than I have over the years, but even I would admit there is a side of him that can only be described as "aloof," to both media and teammates. That characteristic, along with the constant complaining about calls earlier in his career (which he's reduced considerably), might explain partially his unpopularity with local fans and media, despite his high level of play. If so, that is another similarity that Iguodala shares with McNabb. [Nothing can fully explain the Nth degree of hatred directed toward Iguodala by some of the masses on philly.com, though.]

When I was transferring the 4th quarter of Game 4 from DVR to DVD a few days ago, I noticed something interesting: when Lou hit his go-ahead 3-pointer, both Iguodala and Brand gave no reaction at all. Jrue might have been the only one on the court celebrating with Lou. Those are the little things that might help Jrue avoid Iguodala's fate and stay popular with the fans, even if Jrue never becomes a 20 PPG scorer. But guess what? Turner seems to be the heir apparent to Iguodala in terms of bad body language/facial expressions. We'll see if the fans react the same way to him.

One who doesn't know Igoudala or has an agenda would immediately describe it as aloof or it might just be quiet and he doesn't like talking to the media or talking publicly.

What side you come down on is going to depend on your perception of him. I never have had a problem with how he deals with the media, or fans, especially the overly aggressive antagonistic outright hateful media and fans of Philadelphia.

jkay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 11:32

I wouldn't say hateful; more like fickle, over-zealous and possessing selective memory.
you could argue that all fans are like that, ours is just a superlative of the average.

I'd say more hateful.

Listen to sports radio some time - there's hate - and often you can smell the under current of subtle racism in much of it - the fact that guys like Eskin FEED it is even worse

Turtle Bay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 14:07

Yeah you're right, there is an underlying current of racism there. At the same time, this city fell in love with Iverson, so it doesn't seem that race is that large of a factor. Also, Brand is paid more than Iguodala, and there is not the same hate towards the former as the latter, so there must be something going on besides salary.

Well you know what Jalen Rose thinks of Elton Brand right?

Yes, the city loved Allen Iverson WHEN THE SIXERS WERE WINNING but man they turned on him so fast - when they weren't winning - when the media convicted him immediately when he had that dispute with his wife / family that turned into a media circus and police involvement.

If you don't believe there's still opinions in this country that are based on race, consciously or unconsciously, I have ocean front property in nevada to sell you

Turtle Bay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 14:39

"Yeah you're right, there is an underlying current of racism there."

"If you don't believe there's still opinions in this country that are based on race, consciously or unconsciously, I have ocean front property in nevada to sell you."

Sometimes I wish you would take the time to read before you respond

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 14:15

I'm not completely dismissing race, but that is not the driving factor IMO. Ask any fan their favorite players... and you won't get a bunch of white guys. And IMO Lindross and Schmidt got treated by the fans the same way in earlier eras.

When fans were clamoring for the team to start an unknown Cunningham over Jaws it was because the team had been struggling for several years and jaws received all of the criticism for a weak roster. Race had nothing to do with that.

Fans want winning and highlight style play. If you don't deliver they turn on you. It ain't fair, but I would not jump to playing the race card.

Someday you'll stop putting words in my mouth and I'll like that.

The word undercurrent (to me) implies it's not a driving force, but it is a factor, subconsciously, race still matters in america and it still helps people shape opinions even if it's subconsciously, and guys like eskin and misanelli play on that (as subtley as they can) to fire up listeners - because hate em or love em they only care if you LISTEN

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 14:36

I don't disagree. But you have to admit than every time this comment comes up you immediately jump to race. So you might only feel it is playing a small part, but your consistent focus on it makes it appear like you feel it is THE issue art play. But I guess I am misreading your intent.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 5 at 14:44

Of course all of my posts are open to misunderstanding due to a constant stream of typos.

It's usually not the typos so much it's that you keep replying to yourself to add more information :) And now you've started me doing it aswell - you sir are a bad influence.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:06

If a post is going to be several paragraphs I think it is easier to follow if it is broken into 2 or 3 replies. Especially if there are several different points being made.

I have a tendency to skim/ignore really long replies since I lack a good attention span for this format. But maybe that is just me?

Plus, I can have an extended public conversation with myself. Which is its own reward.

Also, I'd self reply a lot less if we could edit out posts.... Brian???

You actually can. e-mail me and I'll tell you how.

If Andre Iguodala were white and put up the same exact numbers in his career - would he be seen differently.

Yes or no - do you believe that is so?

And when douche bag racists like Eskin and Misanelli are two of the most powerful sports radio voices in the city - yeah it's a bigger issue here than it might be in other places.

The reason I bring it up for Iguodala is because all the Igoudala haters to me seem to constantly ahve bull shit reasons for hating him - just like Bobby Abreu

Abreu was lazy
didn't try hard enough
padded his doubles
Walks too much
Doesn't swing at bad pitches enough (never understood that - guy should expand his strike zone to swing at NON strikes in certain situations - that's just dumb)

Was Bobby Abreu great defensively? Nope - but in his prime he was one of the best all around offensive players in the game and the city hated him more than was warranted unless you wanna factor in race.

Give me good reasons for hating iguodala (not scoring enough points isn't a good enough reason for me because before the big contract very few bitched about his point out put) and I'll accept it - I've yet to see an Iguodala basher have a rational intelligent supportable reason for hating him. (Sorry there buppy, you know who you are, before you open your mouth your arguments aboutheart leader ship and other bs doen't hold water with me)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:10

If Iguodala were white people would think he was not as good of an athlete :) And they would be constantly lauding his cerebral game... but he would still take all of the heat for a non-winning career despite the fact that it is the GM who deserves the blame.

I think the abuse from the fans towards Collins in the late 70's for lacking "toughness" and willingness to play hurt was pretty much equivalent to what Iguodala goes through.

I don't think the reaction to Iguodala is overtly racists. I do think the reaction to Hawes vs. Sam is.

tk76 reply to Brian on May 5 at 15:18

Maybe. But I think Hawes would garner equal hate if he ends up sticking around for many years.

It took a while for anti-Sam sentient to build up.

BTW, I sent an email re: editing. Thanks. Also let me know if you ever need help with the site (like doing some stat legwork for a post.)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:12

I do think when a white guy is athletic they tend to call it "hustle." As if someone like Tyler Hansbourough lacks athleticism...

And that's the kind of subtle racism that peremeates our culture (especially atheltics, think about black qb's in the NFL - the perception still is not as even - how many black qb's who are successful are cerebral, how many white ones are athletic)

Not only is it a bad thing, it also makes for bad talent evaluation as well...

Fan "agenda" is tommyrot. Iguodala arrived unknown, with a blank slate. Cheeks, Toney, Hollins, Hawkins, Dawkins, and Weatherspoon were similarly reserved, and the fans respected them because they produced - without pouting, off-putting haughtiness, air of insularity and organizational mollycoddling. Philadelphia's negative attitude towards him is a function of HIS attitude, not his scoring average or shortcomings in his game. The town forgives if the effort and outlay is honest and team-oriented.

jkay reply to Ty Game on May 5 at 11:57

and you know that because.....?

to me, it'll always be about money. no one noticed his pouting, or complaining to the refs, or 'air of insularity' when he was on the rookie scale contract. attitude, mood, temperament, I call bull****

... I know.

You can call it; I can read it.

Well you've been trolling us for a while now. So your 'game' is very clear.

Funny, my reading and writing is "troll"-ing. Yours is what exactly?

Timx reply to Ty Game on May 5 at 14:05

Ty, I agree with what you have to say. And I absolutely lose interest in this blog as soon as GoSixers gets into a pissing match with someone. He reminds me of a teabagger with his passion for constant confrontation. That's all I've got!

Taking cheap shots while not actually adding anything of substance.

And you accuse me of being like Sarah Palin

The Greek reply to Timx on May 5 at 17:43

plus one the guy is a thread killer

jsmoove reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 17:16

Us? When did this become more than 'his' blog? It's your's too?

Didn't you call someone out last week about saying 'we' when referring to their favorite team? And telling the guy he wasn't a part of it? ...Think that was you..

I'd explain it to you but you wouldn't understand it and I don't really care since you have nothing else to contribute but an attack on me - K Thx Bi

Charlie H reply to Statman on May 5 at 12:51

But Lou didn't celebrate either, at least not at first. He kept a straight face after the 3 - I thought that was cool. I like it when players act like they're doing their job when they make a good play. When you're down 0-3, there's really nothing to celebrate anyway.

I think of Marcus Allen dropping the ball in the end zone after a touchdown - the most emphatic statement you can make.

Steve V on May 5 at 10:07

We need to be doing whatever it takes to bring DeAndre Jordan to this team this offseason. LA will obviously want to keep him but at what price? They owe Kaman a ton of money and extensions for Blake and Gordon will be coming up soon. Sterling is a notoriousy cheap owner so unless he can find a taker for Kaman and get only an expiring back I really don't see how they can keep Jordan. Id give him the full midlevel but it may take more than that. Young, athletic 7 footers don't go on the market and especially without commanding max deals very often . Go get him and complete our young ,energetic , freakishly athletic young core of Jrue,Turner,Thad and Jordan. With Meeks and Lou as second tier members of the core.

And how can the sixers afford Jordan?

Steve V reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:09

By sign and trade. The clippers would be open to that rather than losing him for nothing.

Oh right, and what do the sixers have to offer that the Clippers would want?

Steve V reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:24

Andre Iguodala. I've said before I don't want to trade him but if we do Jordan joule be their number one target. Iguodala for Jordan, Foye and if they're willing to give up Aminu then hed work if not a bruiser like Craig Smith would be good too. I've always like him but he was buried on their bench last year. It can be done.

Terrible trade - you plug one hole and create another and hope aminu or evan turner can fill it?

It's not worse than Iguodala for Kaman but it's the same kind of bad

Steve V reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:41

Not really, If we are going to trade Iguodala what trade do you see out there that is actually possible? The hole left by Iguodala is easier to fill than a gaping hole at center. Turner can handle some of the playmaking point forward role and rebounding hole Iguodala's departure would create and 14 ppg is easily filled. Now we wouldn't have his elite shut down ability anymore but that would be semi negated by Jordans ability to protect the rim.

Who said I was going to trade Iguodala.

I don't advocate trading Iguodala.

I advocate improving the center position without touching the core - because if you don't - that's a useless move - you rob from peter to pay paul and you still have a hole just at a different position. It's a trade that doesn't make the team better overall

Steve V reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 17:05

I'm saying if it comes to the point where he asksfor a trade what deal would be better for the team than the one I proposed? I'm not for trqdig Iguodala either. I think there could be other creative ways of getting Jordan here but if Iguodala is demanding a trade Jordan would be a good guy to target.

I suppose it would be ok but it's still not good - and it's been suggested before - and it's also believed that the Clippers wouldn't do it - it's a catch 22

If they want to win - they keep deandre jordan

If they don't want to win - why the hell do they want andre iguodala

it doesn't make sense to the clippers whatever their direction is

Steve V reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 18:30

Well if they want to win they can fill their hole at sf with Iguodala and still have a passable albeit overrated center in Kaman. I just don't think Sterling is willing to to have two centers making alot of money, so that money can go to a sf.

If a player is the perceived centerpiece of a team for 4+ years and that team is mediocre than he will take a ton of heat. That is in no way unique to Philly. Iguodala has played 7 years for a team that has never won more than the 43 games it did his rookie year. Is it any surprise that he was most popular with the fans that rookie year?

If the Sixers had reeled off even 1 50+ win season with Iguodala than he would have a core of loyal fans. But when a bad front office fails to put together a winner than the higher profile players will take the fall. That is just a reality in sports.

It would be incredibly rare in modern sports for a teams highest profile player to stay with his team 10+ years and that team is never very good. Can you name many instances where that is the case? The player either stays around till the team is a winner (Paul Pierce) or they are shipped out as part of a franchise rebuilding.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 5 at 11:09

Looking at some starts on bad teams...

KG stayed 12 years in Minny. But by year 5 they won 50 games, and averaged more than 50 wins for the next 5 years.

Paul Pierce has played 13 years with the Celtics. But they made the Conference Finals in his 4th year. And he was almost a goner after 8 years (similar to Iguodala in that he was taking the fall for a bad team.)

Maybe the best example was Redd, who's Bucks won 52 games as a rookie but have failed to get more than 42 wins in his 9 subsequent years. But Redd would have been traded years ago had he not been untradeable due to injuries and contract.

What high profile player has stayed with a perennially mediocre team for more than 7 years?

What's the difference between a 50-win team that gets bounced in the first round and a 41-win team that gets bounced in the first round?

tk76 reply to Brian on May 5 at 11:48

Sorry, reply is below.

Their are terrible, bad, mediocre, good and great teams.

41 wins is mediocre.
50 wins is good.
60 wins is great.

Off the top of my head, I can list a number of guys who are in the same situation as Iguodala, yet don't receive the same scorn from their team's fans:

Danny Granger
Pierce prior to KG and Allen arriving
Joe Johnson
Bosh in Toronto
Monta Ellis
Brandon Roy (never out of the first round in POR)
LaMarcus Aldridge (ditto)
Carmelo Anthony in DEN (out of the first round once in his entire career)

My point here isn't really whether the team needs to go in another direction, it's the way the fans and media have turned on Iguodala. Iguodala is a better player than most of the guys on that list above, none of them has had playoff success. None of them are being run out of town.

tk76 reply to Brian on May 5 at 11:32

I get your point that people like guys that score. But that was not what I was saying. I was saying that high profile players rarely stay on the same team a long time if that team is not ever winning.

Danny Granger- Good example. 1 less year in the league. Lets see how long he lasts if the Pacers stay mediocre.

Pierce- I noted above, he made the Conf Finals season 4. And was taking tons of heat years 7,8 and almost gone.

Joe Johnson-? Moved mult times. Been on 50+ win teams in Atl and Phx. Not analogous to Iguuodala on the same team that never is over .500

Bosh: Gone after 7 seasons. Iguodala just played 7 seasons

Monta Ellis- 5 seasons. Has taken lots of heat/hate and trade rumors.

Brandon Roy: 5 Seasons. Al lot more wins.

LaMarcus Aldridge (ditto)

Carmelo Anthony: Gone after 7 full seasons. Won a ton more games.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 5 at 11:36

So my point is that it would be unusual for Iggy to actually remain ion the Sixers for much longer given his long tenure and the teams lack of winning. I think that is the case for any player in that circumstance.

So in my view the tragedy is that Billy King and Stefanski wasted 7 great years of Iguodala. He could have been a key component of a great team, but they had crappy rosters every year he has been here. And its pretty close to the end of the road- at least in terms of his Sixers career.

I'll put the same question down here: What's the difference between a 50-win team that gets bounced in the first round and a 41-win team that gets bounced in the first round?

tk76 reply to Brian on May 5 at 11:43

A 50 win team is a good team. A 41 win team is a mediocre team.

The Sixers win 50 games and they are not a #7 or a #8 seed in the East like Portland had to deal with.

tk76 reply to tk76 on May 5 at 11:46

To put in in a frame of reference- the 89/90 Sixer team I loved (Thump/bump Barkley/Mahorn) won 53 games. They were a good team that had no shot against the Bulls. That season was nothing at all like the 41 win teams of recent memory.

Its like the difference between an 80 win and a 92 win baseball team. Some 92 win teams struggle to make the playoffs and get steamrolled by a 100 win Juggernaut. That does not make them average

Sorry, but a first-round exit is a first-round exit to me. In fact, being a 41-win team that gets bounced in the first round, on the road, against one of the favorites is a lot less damning than winning 50+ games and losing in the first round when you have home court advantage (which KG and Melo made a habit out of. Roy also has that on his resume to go along with never getting out of the first round).

tk76 reply to Brian on May 5 at 14:32

I just don't agree. And I think your hate for certain players is clouding your judgement.

Nobody would confuse the Nuggets or Balzers for the Spurs.... but no one would confuse them for the Sixers either.

17 wins. That is what Denver had before they drafted Melo.
43/49/44/45/50/54/53 over Melo's career. If you think that is equivalent to the Sixers 27-41 win outings simply because the Nugges ONLY made the Western Conference Final's once then I just have to disagree.

Not to mention that you cannot compare the Sixers playing in a weak east all these years to the West. Comparing a 53 win season and 1st round loss to another strong 53 win Utah team is nothing at all like winning 41 games and losing in 5 games to the #2 seed.

Same with Portland:
22 winds prior to LMA and Roy.
Then 32/41/54/50/48(with roy now hobbled)

How is that at all like Iguodala's run?
33 wins befoer darfted. Then 43/38/35/40/41/27/41.

I'm not blaming Iguodala for that mediocrity. I'm blaming BK/ES. But to equate the Sixers level of success with teams like the Nuggets and Portland is absurd. The West is stacked, so you can't easily get out of the first round. But that does not make a consist 50 game winner in the West equivalent to a fringe playoff team in the East. At least not in my view.

jkay reply to Brian on May 5 at 11:38

Johnson is gonna hear it, give him time.
Pierce's ear was aflame just before they got the big 3 though. I remember that ended with the year he was hurt and they sat him just to tank.
But I think you're right, it's the quality of fans we have here. The McNabb situation, I never understood. To the point of lucidity, no one can explain to me why he was not the best QB we ever had.

tk76 reply to jkay on May 5 at 11:51

McNabb, Lindross and Schmidt were much harder for me to understand.

Iguodala and Abreue were simply examples of the fans being frustrated with mediocre teams- so the high profile players took the heat. That is just commonplace in sports.

jkay reply to tk76 on May 5 at 12:01

you could devote a whole encyclopedia to the psychology of sports and it's fans.

By a measure of statistical comparisons, you're in the catbird seat. By the intangible measure of leadership and heart, you gotta fold 'em. Ask Chuck Bednarik, NFL champion, greatest Eagle of them all, about the best QB in team history; he'll give you a straight-on earful and clear up your McNabbitis.

jkay reply to Ty Game on May 5 at 12:12

my point was never about the comparative value of his individual accomplishments.

You mean by the bullshit measures of 'heart', 'grit', 'leadership', that idiot fans think they can 'measure' by watching a guy play or the expression on his face.

Dear god - just shut down the computer, listen to eskin and nod along with the stupidity.

You're making us all dumber

I wouldn't miss your bon mots of intellect and insight for the world. Do continue, saucy sage. Please tell how it is in the world of sports, urban development, franchise attendance and player comparisons. Your blusterous brio is a fine accoutrement, often of vacuity but seldom without conviction. Cheerio!

Charlie H reply to Brian on May 5 at 18:19

Don't forget KG prior to joining Pierce.

Am I the only who finds this a bit confusing? I could understand Andre wanting out during last year's fiasco with EFJ, but to make a so-called stink after getting back to the playoffs and playing under a coach who actually likes him... Seems strange no?

I'm going to hold off judgement till I actually hear from Andre about the missed exit interview. Till then, this is 'news' because there's nothing else going on.

Moving onto something else, I mentioned my liking Memphis a few months back and I'm starting to realize why: they're very similar to the Sixers. You've got a young point (Jrue), two elite wing defenders (Andre and Turner), a go-to PF (Brand), a doughy C who passes well
(Hawes), and a great bench (Lou, Meeks, and Thad). With some player development and roster tweaks, could we get to their level? Cause right now, they're looking like a top 3 team in the West.

jkay reply to raro on May 5 at 11:49

Memphis' front-court (the reason why they win games and accounting for 50% of the team's offensive production) is light years ahead of ours.

raro reply to jkay on May 5 at 12:48

I'll agree with you that their front court is much better than ours; however, our 1-3 spots are better than their 1-3 spots and that should make a difference.

I guess part of it is Memphis having an ideal first round match up in San Antonio and us having the worst possible match up with Miami.

I'll give you the 1, and the 3, but Jodie meeks is not light years ahead of anyone on the grizz. Let's not over value meeks.

It's a team game, and it's a big man game.

Rudy Gay ain't playing for Memphis, so everyone moves 'up one' in their rotation, but who knows maybe that helps them.

If Zach can play at this level and Gasol continues his evolution, is there a better 4/5 combo in the league? Bynum has the injury issues (and seems to be petulant after last night) and Gasol (Pau) seems to forget to show up sometimes

jkay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 13:29

Horford/Smith? emphasis on the Horford, not the Smith.

the huge difference between Mike Conley and Jrue and the significant one between Iguodala and Rudy Gay should be enough to tip the scales.

Memphis also has a better bench than the sixers.

They have a better over all team - at this moment - than the sixers do.

I'm not sure horford smith is better than Gasol/Randolph at the top of their game.

Really, I think only the lakers right now would be in the argument.

I suppose if you wanted to throw Dirk/Chandler in there just because dirk is SO DAMN GOOD (and showing it against the lakers) - you could - but that's more because of Dirk alone and Chandler comes along for the ride

raro reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 13:48

I was comparing Turner/Iguodala to Allen/Battier, but your point about Gay is still valid. Though I wonder if they would be as good with Gay taking more shots...

I can't figure out M Gasol - is he a better version of Kaman? What's his ceiling?

As for a 4/5 combo, I think the Mavs' Nowitzki/Chandler combo is proving to be pretty effective. That whole series is crazy, what with four 7 footers and a 6 10' guy on the floor at the same time...

But how much of dirk/chandler is dirk alone, i mean it's not clsoe to a 50/50 split and I think zach / gasol is closer to 50:50.

marc gasol is younger, healthier, and more athletic than Chris Kaman EVER was, he's also just better than Kaman ever was (in my opinion)

I don't think it's a contest

So your saying it is the fans fault that our best player can't make this team anything more that a .500 team? If Igoudala is the "star" of the team than he should be willing to take heat when things go bad and praise when they are good. Last time I checked though things havent been so good here in his 7 years as a sixer.

tk76 reply to Chodeburger on May 5 at 11:41

I think it is Billy King and Ed Stefanski's fault.

Look at great players like Kobe, DWade, Pierce and KG. They all had multiple seasons where there teams failed to win 45 games... and those are top level stars. The real difference is that their teams bounced back from down years by adding actual talent next to their stars. The Sixers have been an abject failure at building a quality roster for about a decade.

If Kobe still was stuck with his 2004 roster of Odom, Atkins, Butler and Mihm (or something equivalent) he would not be sporting rings.

Thorn: Iguodala, Turner have different strengths:


OH look at that, backpedaling and spinning to try and make it ok...Thorn - this ain't jersey.

Yeah I blame Stefanski because well, I blame him for just about everything. He traded away our only good center for a bunch of garbage thats still hurting us, and thats why we can't get to the next level. Iguodala goes and plays on the usa team where he wins and coaches and teammates love him, and then he comes back plays really well and then gets an injury that hampers him. So then he has to deal with taking most of the blame for a first round loss, its unfair so of course he's upset. I hope he stays but if he wants to go on in another situation, fine, I'd wish him well. But if the Sixers end up trading him for someone like Monta Ellis or something, you might have to talk me off the ledge cause I'll be on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

It really cracks me up when people accuse Iguodala of being selfish. He's not a dumb guy, he realizes that if he scored more points, people would get off his back. And you know what, he could score more points. He could easily score 20 points/game if he took more shots. He wouldn't score as efficiently, but he could do it. It wouldn't be good for the team, it wouldn't help his teammates at all, but he could do it without a doubt. He could put up as many shots as Stephen Jackson, and he could probably even score more efficiently than Jackson does with those shots, but he doesn't. He doesn't chase the glamor stats that would get people off his back because that's not the best thing for success of the team. For that, he's called selfish and his ego is called into question, continually.

Not for nothing, but Ron Artests implosion this post season - am I the only one enjoying it?

jkay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 12:41

really? imploding?
he played very well against New Orleans, mostly cos he was up against the likes of Willie Green and Marco Bellinelli. but I think the jury has been out since that Artest's offense is almost non-existent and teams guarding the Lakers can leave him open anytime.

Gasol No?

I haven't been impressed with Artest most of the season, every time he launches a three - like hawes - someone should junk punch him

I'm looking forward to Artest being suspended for Game 3

I think why most of us want Andre to be traded, why i want him to be traded, is 1. because we can actually get some value back from him, 2. his carer arc is not really lined up to our other high value guys, and 3. we have another 3 on the bench in Turner.

Now Turner may still turn out to be a bust, but the bottom line is that we need to make a great trade with Iggy, to add another solid young piece, to have any prayer of improving over the mid-long term.

We cannot afford to just dump Iggy. You either need a solid young big man, really hard to find, or a real 2 guard that can flat out score, Monta Ellis comes to mind. I realize that next year, unless something drastic happens, we will probably be bounced in the first round again if our roster stays the same. I would rather take a step back, start Turner at the three and get another piece for Iggy that better matched the career arc of our kids and plugs in at either the 2 or 5 as a starter.

I like Jodie, but he is not a starting 2 for a really good team, neither is Lou. I bet it is easier to find that scoring 2 guard than it is a young, promising 5. I am hopefule that Turner can end up giving you 12, 6 and 6 next year and he can develop into a serviceable defender. They key is getting something solid and young for Iggy. We can't get robbed. You hear me, Thorn?

btw--I like Iggy. I like that he has Paul Pierce's ear on his necklace. I appreciate all those things, it's just that we only have so many good cards to play, we are stuck with Turner, so we have to move iggy at some point. I would love to keep him, but our hands are tied.

Talk to CSTH.

Do Bynum's comments re: "deep rooted issues" + Artest being Artest + the Kobe window starting to close open a possibility of a big deal centered around Iguodala and Bynum this summer? (Assuming Dallas finishes them off)

I'm not in the trade him for anything crowd, but I'd be open to moving him for a high quality big.

That all depends on the Dwight Howard thing, but I doubt Iguodala for Bynum is a deal that gets done.

Lakers love Kobe and everything but they have to know he's closer to the end than the beginning and Bynum is one of the most talented young big men (when healthy) in the league and can be a super star type player (when healthy) - if you still have him, and gasol, and odom, kobe slowing down hurts less.

I posed this question elsewhere;
Who is better now; Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer?

Instinctively I pick Carlos Boozer just because he's younger and slightly more athletic but he's pretty weak defensively so it might be Brand, right now.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 14:37

Agree. Both have similar strengths and weaknesses, but Boozer is more mobile a fluid. This allows Boozer to catch and score on the mover- but they both struggle finishing contested looks near the rim.

raro reply to tk76 on May 5 at 14:57

I don't know... Boozer has looked pretty terrible the last few games.

Who is defending him?

raro reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:16

sorry, I thought you guys were preferring Boozer to Brand? I'd rather have Brand.

I prefered Boozer due to age and athleticism

And two games in the playoffs means nothing compared to an 82 games season.

I was asking who was defending Boozer because maybe he's being defended well - i'm not watching the games :)

raro reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:29

Gotcha. It's been mainly Horford and Smith, two guys who would probably give Brand trouble as well. The fact that he's no longer running the P/R with DWiliams doesn't help either.

I still take Brand because Boozer can't play defense and can't stay on the court, plus he's got 4 years left on his deal.

tk76 reply to raro on May 5 at 15:37

But I don't think Brand could run the P&R with Jrue the way Boozer could.

Or the way speights can

Just saying :)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:41

Going all of the way back to college, I've yet to see a coach willing to put his trust into giving Speights consistent minutes. I doubt it will ever happen.

jkay reply to tk76 on May 5 at 15:50

and I have yet to find a coach that can get Jason Kapono to play defense.

jkay reply to raro on May 5 at 15:37

he looked equally as bad against Indiana too.
it's interesting because he looks far from the Boozer of 2yrs ago.
i think Chicago will pay for signing him to such a long contract.


mo_speezy on May 5 at 14:42

I think you're conflating two things: casual fans not liking Iguodala because he's "not a star" (unjustified) and more-involved fans not liking Iguodala because of some aspect of his personality/demeanor/etc. Anyone Sixers fan who pays attention can see he's a huge net positive and great player, but that doesn't mean he's a likeable player from a home team fan's perspective. I'm not sure that means he should be traded either, but he shouldn't be immune to criticism about his personality/attitude and what that suggests about his dedication to his teammates and to the club. I just don't think it can always be chalked up to coded criticism about his lack of scoring ability when "experts" point out problems with his attitude, which are legitimate in certain respects.

more-involved fans not liking Iguodala because of some aspect of his personality/demeanor/etc.

Pardon me If I think that's an asinine reason for not liking a player. Because it's all based on a bull shit PERCEPTION filter that everyone says 'oh i know it' - but it's all based on personal perception.

More involved fans (intelligent ones) should like Iguodala because he is the best all around player on the sixers and does all he can - and if you think that somehow you can tell by his demeanor or facial expressions that he could do more, or 'try harder' or just be better, you're a fool if you think he isn't already doing those things, so I won't take anyone seriously no matter how serious a fan they claim to be if they bring the bull shit 'intangible' debate

mo_speezy reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:01

I meant less in the sense of intepreting his behavior as "he's not trying hard"/"he's not giving his all", and more in the sense of "he doesn't seem like a guy that I'd want to be teammates with" (or to use an analogous situation that most non-athletes can understand, be co-workers with). I agree that it doesn't make much sense to do the former, but I'm not sure people can be helped for getting the impression of the latter.

But, it's hard to interpret which of these might be the reason for all the hatred - also, the most vocal critics are usually not the most articulate.

I don't think I really disagree with what you're saying, except the notion that it makes a fan less "intelligent" to form perceptions like that based on someone's behavior.

Andre Iguodala first five years - Andre Iguodala since - same player - quality all around player but great at almost nothing.

The only thing that's really changed is his salary.

For some reason people seem to think increased salary in professional sports should equate with increased out put (and yet no one ever talks about how great it is to have a player like Iguodala, or Durant, or Lebron on a rookie contract and how much they're being underpaid per production, in fact, based on his rookie deal, ANdre Iguodala was one of the most underpaid players - based on overall output - for a while - i think 82games.com did that research).

The expectations change when the salary change, but the player is still the same player. It was ridiculous of anyone to expect that Andre Iguodals point out put would suddenly go up by 1/2 or that he'd be a leading scorer year in and year out just because his salary went up. I consider that unintelligent because it doesn't make sense. More money doesn't mean he's a different guy, just that he's paid more fairly (consider it partly 'make up' money for the rookie contract where he was grossly underpaid), and in professional sports, yes you have to pay a premium you wouldn't pay in a normal job - cause that's just how it works when you've got limited resources - you can't say 'kobe bryant wants 80 mili but i'm not going to give it to him cause that kobe bryant only wants 60 mil'. (Hey look that one class in economics from 1992 coming in handy a little)

I have never felt that a guy who gets a big salary bump (especially after his rookie contract) is going to suddenly out perform what he was doing (per minute is different, if he gets more minutes on a different team you might see gross number in crease but overall performance stay the same on a per minute basis) on the lower contract, cause he's still the same guy.

Andre Iguodala was never the leading scorer on his team ( i believe all the way back to high school), being the primary guy, the focus of an offense, was never him, it was never his game, it was never his style, and no team built around him like that. The sudden expectation that with a pay raise he was going to suddenly become a different player and subsequent disappointment (and hate) over the fact that he didn't makes no intelligent sense to me.

To me, the premise that a guy is going to show vast improvement when he gets his bigger pay day can only be based on the premise that he wasn't doing his best to be his best under his rookie deal, and is that a guy you want to give a big contract to anyway?

It's going to be Thaddeus Young this off season. He's going to get a bigger deal, but Idon't expect him to be that much better of a player (unless he makes an effort to work on his rebounding which is sub par for his position and size)

I never got the feeling that Andre Iguodala wasn't doing the best he could at every aspect of the game, his limitations were based on his ability/talent, not his will or effort, so I don't see why more money would translate into being a different player, while many seem to think more money means he should suddenly become something he isn't, wasnt' and never has been

That went on a long time and possibly repeated some things more than once, sorry about that.

Timx reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 16:07

I personally don't care how much he makes. All I ask is that he continually improves his game. I don't have any access to stats so I could definitely be wrong here. Didn't his free throw % go down over the years? Does he get to the line like he used to? Has he improved his jump shot at all over the past few years? He is absolutely blessed in so many facets of the game, for me I get upset because I see so much more potential and can't understand why it isn't improving year over year. I also don't care how many points he scores. I do care about him taking contested shots one step in from the arc when he could probably blow past his defender and either score, get fouled or dish to someone for an open look.

He would be a lot easier to like if he acted like he truly enjoyed being on WFC's court with his teammates instead of walking around disinterested with a look of pure disgust on his face. Maybe none of you have ever noticed that, but I can't get past it!

With that said, I would rather have Iggy next year than anyone that he could bring back in a trade. I just wish he would improve on a couple of those areas YOY.

So you'd be disappointed in Shaquille O'neal then - he never really 'got better' - his free throw shooting was atrocious and he blew it off like it didn't matter.

You must have thought shaq was a big old disappointement then?

Your premise seems based on the belief that a player has unlimited upside and can always get better - which I believe is a faulty prmise - plus you have no idea what Andre Iguodala does and doesn't work on in the off season

Tray reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 16:10

I think coming out of the season we played the Pistons, it looked like Iguodala was on some kind of growth curve on offense. People who watch the game seriously, not just Sixers fans, thought he was emerging into some kind of primary scoring option, or at least a secondary scoring option who was really great at everything else, a la Pippen. And thought so for reasons completely divorced from his contract. I think it comes as some surprise that he's substantially regressed, as a scorer at least, from where he as back then.

CM reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:42

Do you dislike Ron Artest because of the way that he plays or his demeanor/personality/insanity involved?

I think he doesn't play within his ability.

PS I also thought long term the Lakers would regret choosing Artest (the name) over Ariza (the better fit to the roster)

tk76 reply to mo_speezy on May 5 at 15:26

I think this is fair. I dislike Anderson Varejo even though he has some strong areas to his game. I can see some people finding parts of Iguodala's game, shot selection, demeanor irritating. Although personally, i'm a fan of his game.

PS - if you've never been a direct victim of hatred because of how you were born - you might have a different view of it - being a jew for 4 years in the midwest was kind of eye opening to me in a sad way.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:35

I don't know if it is sad, funny or both, that when Akiba was playing basketball against a school for the deaf their cheerleaders where mocking us in sign-language...

Depends on how they were mocking you - if it was purely based on being jewish - that's bad.

You went to akiba? Right across the street from the library and my synagogue?

tk76 reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:49

Making praying signs and bobbing their heads. It actually blew up into a bit of a thing. Although not as bad as when the police were at our game against the Mennonites after a near fight broke out (including coaches) after the first game.

This stuff was pathetic and comical at the same time. Its a tragedy that one group that is treated poorly feels the need to act the same to another group. But that's just kids and human nature, I guess.

But our games against Girard College and Cathloic league teams always went well. At least when we were not getting destroyed on the court.

Fights with mennonites? Aren't they supposed to be pacifists?

man I'm glad i went to a school that sucked in most sports, but soccer and lacrosse and only one football game a year mattered

CM reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 15:58

Iguodala is not criticized for anything to do with how he was born.

He's criticized for how he presents himself in a very public profression, for things that he says while interviewed. When he plays or is interviewed it's on TV.

Relating the criticism of Andre Iguodala to anti-semitism in any way is absurd and trivializes from the seriousness of ethnic or racial prejudice.

jkay reply to CM on May 5 at 16:06

the principal term is hatred.
and while I don't think anyone personally hates Iguodala, some of what goes through WIP can aptly be described as hatred.
again IMHO.
I honestly think sports talk radio only allures a certain kind of fan. It should not be representative of the whole.

Rich reply to CM on May 5 at 16:09

Yeah, I don't agree with the criticism, but it's not racial prejudice.

Brian posted something from the inquirer on the tweet board, and while this isn't why he posted it (I don't think) I think it's very relevant to the conversation going on here. (Plus it involves my favorite non-eagle football player)

Baltimore Ravens lineman Michael Oher, now well known as the subject of the book and movie The Blind Side, tweeted this Tuesday about ESPN's Todd McShay: "tell me what are character issues because I don't know. . . you said I had them and you never met me?!" And also: "you need to meet ppl first and then judge them not go off what you hear!!"

In fact, Oher had some anger-induced incidents in college, but his point is correct. How can he defend himself and explain where those issues came from when they get whittled down (or blown up) to all-purpose "character issues?"

Not to mention, some Hall of Famers retire with their "character issues'' still intact.

Tom Moore on May 5 at 15:56

Q&A with Sixers president Rod Thorn:


Here is my complete 15-minute Q&A from Wednesday.

No, I think this "and then everyone will turn on Jrue" bit you've been doing lately is paranoid. Jrue's a point guard. Iguodala was billed to us as a shooting guard, and then a small forward when it became apparent that he wasn't a guard, but always the idea was that he was our franchise player and #1 option. People expect very different things from point guards than they do from wings who are touted by their front offices as big-time scorers. If Holiday averages 19 and 10, even 17 and 10, people will be very happy with that. That's about what we have a right to expect. Below 17 ppg, I think even you'd be saying that he should probably be looking for his shot a bit more (or making more shots, if that was the problem), just as people correctly faulted Paul for being a little too passive this year in only scoring 15.9 a game.

Tray reply to Tray on May 5 at 16:17

I would add that, if you try, you really can't think of a point guard whose fanbase turned on him for scoring too little. I don't think that's ever happened. But plenty of point guards have become very unpopular with their team's fanbases for trying to score too much. Even Westbrook is getting tons of flak right now. So unless your theory is that Philadelphia basketball fans are uniquely stupid, because what other city could be so stupid as to get a little fed up with a guy on a huge contract scoring 11 a game in a first-round loss, I don't see this happening. And I really don't think that Iguodala would be viewed very differently by some other fanbase, all things being equal. Of course if he were traded to a team with three great scorers where he could just defend, he'd become a beloved "scrappy" glue guy. But that's not this situation.

Can you point out another city where a team's best player is booed pretty regularly, attacked by every form of media, cussed at just for walking around town? In any sport?

New York Mets?

I mean they just suck

Do the Mets have a best player?

David Wright?

Johan Sanatana is still on the Mets right? He's ok?

Yeah I agree. I don't think fans feelings towards Iggy apply to Jrue. Every situation is unique in Philly. It's hard to explain.

For example, Donovan McNabb, ultra-class act and great guy, was hated his whole career. Michael Vick comes in, with his myriad issues (none of which bother me but would presumably bother the typical fan), and he can do no wrong. Vick finished the season with 5 pretty awful games, and heard not one word of criticism. McNabb woulda been lambasted for finishing a season the way Vick did.

Phillies too. Chase Utley is completely immune from criticism. Yet Rollins takes a lot of heat, and Cole Hamels got booed in his debut this season.

Fans like some players, don't like others. I've never understood it, but it's the way it is, especially in Philly. Iggy just happens to be one of the unpopular ones. His demeanor on the court (staring up into space as he walks down the floor, seemingly wishing he were anywhere else) and his refusal to say "I want to be in Philly" at the beginning of the season don't help.

There's a lot of "Why would you expect Iggy to want to stay given the way he's treated?" comments here. Well McNabb was treated like crap and he wanted to stay and always said so. Same with Pat Burrell. Iggy just doesn't want to be here. He refuses to say he wants to be here, and he doesn't show up for an exit interview. Time to part ways.

Yeah I agree. I don't think fans feelings towards Iggy apply to Jrue. Every situation is unique in Philly. It's hard to explain.

It's not hard to explain.

There always has to be a target - if Iguodala gets traded it'll be 'on to the next one' - and the target is usually the one with the highest (unrealistic) expectations.

The only thing that stops it - is winning - consistent protracted winning WITH A TITLE (which is where mcnabb failed). Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, if the phillies didn't have tht world series win under their belts, people would start turning on them.

Maybe it's uniquely Philadelphia, maybe it's just sports fans, but there ALWAYS has to be someone who is the target of the failures of the team to achieve (possibly unrealistic) expectations. In Minnesota, it's the GM and the coach, In Sacramento, it's the coach and Demarcus Cousins, in Golden State it was Don Nelsons fault (but look they still suck)

The problem is the belief that the team should be better than they are - and it's usually not so.

Jrue will be fine as long as he's on his rookie deal, but as soon as he signs that contract extension - he better show vast improvement - or people are going to turn on him.

The next player targeted if Iguodala will be traded will either be

A. Player traded for in the Iguodala trade (especially if the team Iguodala is traded to becomes a more serious title contender)

B. Thaddeus Young because he's next on the 'first contract after rookie contract' list.

I realize that it's the nature of hte beast, I understand it's the nature of the beast - I just despise it and prefer to read/write on places where the beast is at least 'smaller' (Like the good phight for phillies fans)

Rich reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 16:32

Cole Hamels won a title (probably was the biggest part), so did Lidge. They still get killed when they do bad. Not to say their 09 seasons weren't awful (they were), but they still will get flak if they do poorly. They were awesome last year too. I think you are right with the original premise, there is always someone to blame.

Don't get me started on Cole Hamels - he was never really 'bad' - there's a plethora of intelligently written stuff out that that points out that he pitched almost exactly the same in his 'good' year versus his 'bad' year (in things that matter) - he was a victim of old school fools thinking W-L record is an indicator of performance. and some really bad BABIP luck (or he was obscenely lucky his 'good' year)

His 'pitcher specific' numbers (K/9, BB/9 etc...) weren't really that different in his good or bad years - i think if i recall properly he had some obscene BABIP luck and was due for a 'reversion' :)

Rich reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 16:46

Yeah that's true, he had some bad luck with BABIP that year, but he did struggle and that along with Lidge might have swung the title. It's hard to expect most fans to understand that, but I just wish they would have more perspective with Cole.

Where did he struggle though? It's not the place to get into it - but his k, walk rates were about the same, and his home run rate may have been slightly higher but i dn't think it was hugely higher

Lidge is another story entirely - but then again - the year the phils won - he wasn't 'great' - he just got a lot of saves (terrible stat by the way - closers are used stupidly) - lidge and hamels situations are vastly different for a variety of reasons

Rich reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 16:55

In the playoffs, he came up really small that year. I'm on a phone but I think he had 4 crappy playoff starts (Game 2- Rockies, Games 1 and 5- Dodgers, Game 3 Yankees). I don't really hold it against him because he was otherworldly the year before.

Playoffs are by definition small sample size. If your argument is that he had a bad season cause he was bad in the playoffs, don't bother doing any more research, it's not a viable argument to me.

He gave up a lot more runs and hits per inning in 2009, though it was clearly an anomaly season.

Are we using his ERA as a quality metric now?

(It's not)

Personally, I think there's a lot more involved in BABIP than luck.

Well there's two different BABIP's - one for pitchers - one for hitters

Strikeouts important to a pitcher - not as important in evaluating a hitter.

There are some guys who have high BABIP consistently and some that have low consistently - but a lot of analysis has been done to determine what's 'average' - and it's year over year - season over season that these numbers maintain - so if a guy has an outlier year - and then reverts to the league average - or his average - maybe it's just luck.

The outlier in Hamels wasn't 2009 - it was 2008 - he was obscene

(I think you're just bitter cause Jeter is done :) )

Nah, no reason to be bitter when you're in first.

Imagine how big the lead would be if your shortstop wasn't a dead weight in terms of contract and play.

jkay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 17:38

cmon Yanks, this is what you do.
lol. just messing.

Probably similar to where the Phils would be if they didn't have a malingering second baseman, huh?

Yes - Chase Utley being injured is the same as derek jeter being old and stealing money - you're right ;)

Rich reply to Brian on May 5 at 18:36

That's my other point. He was leaving the ball over the plate a lot that year.

This is your opinion that his pitch location was off that year or you have the ability to back it up?

Actually, in terms of relevant analysis - it seems that 2008 was the outlier - and 2009 was a bit more what he is - and he wasn't 'bad'


That thing ignores hits per inning? Seems like a pretty important stat to be ignoring in my opinion.

And I think ERA is an important metric. Probably the most important. Do you let the runs or not? That's what I want to know.

Might be - but a lot of research has gone into this thing

Look at his XFIP and his WAR

Hits are not 'pitcher dependent' only - hits are also dependent on a lot of other aspects (which is why you babip and compare to league averages) that hte pitcher has no control over, like fielder positioning, outfielder speed, etc...

So yeah, 'hits' are dealt with in a more logical intelligent way then just saying 'hits'

Kind of like rebounding percentage is a better number than gross rebounding numbers (in my opinion)

fair enough..."WAR" and the like always go over my head haha

Looking at those numbers, it seems like he was more lucky in 2008 than he was unlucky in 2009.

Like I said

Actually, in terms of relevant analysis - it seems that 2008 was the outlier - and 2009 was a bit more what he is - and he wasn't 'bad'

But he still wasn't bad in 2009 - he just wasn't excellent as he was in 2008 :)

So I'm in this fantasy basketball GM thing at RealGM, where the teams will be sim'ed on NBA2k11. So I was checking the player ratings...

Guess where Jrue ranks amongst NBA PG's?

38th best PG (70). Tied with Jason Williams and worse than Rafer Alston and TJ Ford. What a dismantlement :)

Don't they adjust those things as the season progresses?

I don't know. I sure hope so...

I know that if you have the game you can edit guys.

It should be interesting to see how they rate guys next year.

He started the season with a 70 ranking, it's been updated to 79 now. You should try and get them to use the end of season ratings imo, or the rankings that were current at the time the fantasy draft occured.

Yeah, I've seen some people post updated Sixer rankings... but I don't know if that is their individual work or part of an official patch. I only have 2k10, so I don't know, and I can't seem to find the more recent ratings listed anywhere. And per wikipedia the last patch was in early Feb.

Its a shame if Iquodola has to go. I Liked him as a player from day one. I'm a defense guy--I loved the old bad boy pistons and the bad boy Knicks of the 90's. Iggy is a Scotty Pippen TYPE...not as good especially offensively but he does a lot. Defense wins championships and hes one of the top 5 defenders in the league. Find someone who can fill it up as your number one option and he will flourish. Hes a terrible end of game option, but has a place on this team for sure.

I still don't see why he 'has' to go

Well he doesn't seem to be hiding that he wants out. Why keep a guy who doesn't want to be here? Hopefully he has some trade value. But even if he doesn't, is it good to keep a guy around who doesn't want to be on the team? Especially when he's the vet who's supposed to set an example?

It's kind of not good when a supposed veteran leader isn't showing up for exit interviews. I'm a bit concerned that Thorn says "it's not a big deal." I know he's just trying to keep it in house, but this is the same treatment they gave Iverson. When you bend the rules for one player, others will start to break them. If it's not a big deal to miss mandatory team appointments without even informing the team, then why should any of the players show up?

If he did miss this, it's inexcusable. I said that above. But it's also the first black mark on his resume and he's still the hardest worker on the team. That's a far cry from the crap Iverson pulled.

Timx reply to Brian on May 5 at 17:36

"hardest worker on the team"

In my opinion he hasn't worked on the parts of his game that need the most work ie, shooting, getting to the line, ft shooting, decision making during crunch time. These are issues he's had his whole career. I do believe he's a hard worker maybe he needs to be more of a "smart" worker. Lol

The only thing that pisses me off more than dickbag comments are dickbag commenters who lol at their own mindless shit.

But they're such incredible bon mots :)

Timx reply to Brian on May 5 at 18:38

Wow that was mature. It's funny that you get so upset whenever anyone questions Dre. With any other topic you seem to be completely unbiased and fair, but when it comes to him you have some kind of personal attachment. And by the way Brian, I love this site. It gives me more access to everything Sixers than anything out there. So please don't call anyone a "Dickbag." Honestly, I didn't expect such a response from you. I was just interested in your opinion of him being a hard worker. Didn't mean to incite such a response.

Don't get me wrong about Dre, I like him! He's one of my favorite players. I just feel like he has so much more to offer this team. I've been waiting for him to develop some of those areas because he seems to have such incredible potential. LOL (not really)

You're a laugh riot Timmeh

Seriously reply to Brian on May 5 at 20:41

Unacceptable. You apparently want to turn this into a philly.com comment thread where people just blindly attack each other. You might disagree with TimX's reasoning, but at least he offered some. Your reply is just idiotic garbage.

Off to a good start, taking a shot at the owner of the blog.

It's his sandbox you know - we play here only at his consent.


He offered opinion, that's not always the same as reason

I've always been a fan of Iggy, he's a good guy who didn't deserve the treatment he got from the fans. And I agree that he hasn't come close to pulling Iverson's stunts.

For me, it's just that he doesn't want to be here. I had no interest whatsoever in trading him until during the 3-13 start, when asked if he wanted to stay in Philly, he couldn't say yes and instead said "I just want to win." He wasn't asked the question again until after the playoffs ended, and this time he again couldn't just say yes when asked if he wanted to be here.

That's what it's about for me. I don't blame him for wanting to play somewhere else. It's a free country. I like his game. He's a really good player. But he doesn't want to play for the Sixers. Anyone who wants out should be awarded with a plane ticket to another team, in my opinion. This is especially true in the case of a vet who's supposed to set an example. I don't have a problem with Iggy wanting out, but I think we should grant his wish.

One reason I was so excited about drafting Turner (and am still so excited about his future here) is that he only worked out for the Sixers. This is the only team he wanted to play for. I dig that, it's important to me. And it's rare for Philadelphia.

Hopefully he has some trade value

Do you believe he wouldn't? Why would you believe he wouldn't?

Has he said "I don't want to be here" or are people reading into bullshit to come to the conclusion they want to?

I don't think a player 'deserves' to win but I think the best player on a franchise deserves better treatment from the fans (AND THE GOD DAMN FRANCHISE) than Iguodala gets and for that reason have thought he should be traded for a couple years - not because he has to - but because he deserves better than what he gets in this city. (Which is different than Steve Nash who is a god in Phoenix)

He doesn't 'have' to go - just people want him gone and are using this issue as an excuse to fan the flames are hyperbole and bullshit

With the unknown CBA, his injuries, and his very large contract, it may not be easy to find a fit.

No he hasn't specifically said "Trade me." But it's not a huge jump to say that he wants out when he refuses to say he wants to be in Philly (even when asked directly) and he doesn't seem bothered by the idea of skipping mandatory team meetings.

I'd be shocked if he doesn't want out. And I've said it before, Sixers fans get exactly what they deserve.

Yeah, I agree. Although I think Sixer fans are the best of the Philly lot, sadly.

In terms of loyalty - they're the worst - flyer fans are the best

In terms of appreciation of truly good to great players - well I mean all philly sports fans are bad at that, though there are phillies fans who get it - i don't know how many sixers fans i can call 'good loyal' fans if they loved reggie evans :)

I said it yesterday in one thread, I'll say it here again.

I don't believe a single player gets moved before the labor issues are settled.

jkay reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 17:31

I dunno; the stars are already lining up - the fan discontent has always been there, Iggy has started issuing non-committed answers to those asinine trade questions, front office wanting to unload salary, rebuilding coach in place, skipping exit interview, perceived by media as wanting out, the speculation articles are escalating too.

Maybe he issues non committal answers because they're asinine questions?

It's what I'd do :)

The best way to generate an audience in Philadelphia is through inciting hate.

If Philly.com features an article in which they talk about some actual basketball topic such as rebounding, they'll get a few people to read and comment on the article. If they feature an article about Andre's value on the team and how he is overrated, they'll get a ton of comments and a ton of web traffic. They same thing applies to radio. The more they can incite hatred the more people will want to call in, listen and vent their own frustrations.

Out of curiosity - since I avoid most philly media - who are they targeting in baseball these days to incite talk?

I'm guessing IBanez

Actually Raul is another one of those guys who never gets booed. So bizarre.

jkay reply to stoned81 on May 5 at 19:43

nah you just can't figure out that the "RaUUULL"s are actuallty "BOOO"s.

Always hard to tell

Of course, it seems to have started with the greek god of walks

but I know ibanez is having a down season (and well, he's freaking old) and Brown is getting healthy so I wondered if people were getting on him. I'm surprised they got two productive years out of that contract

Wesley reply to GoSixers on May 5 at 20:33

For the Phillies, its usually Rollins, Hamels, or Rueban Amaro for Chase Utley's lack of production.

For the Eagles,

Ron Artest suspended for Game 3

Then is talking about how important Game 3 is for the team when he's asked about it :)

I think he most certainly is asking out and has been crossing his fingers for a trade to anywhere for the last three seasons. He just knows he'll be crucified even further if he were to. At this point, I'd bet he'd move to Minnesota to get away from here. No player wants to play here. I live and die by this team and this would definitely be one of the last places I'd like to play if I were blessed enough to be a pro. Maybe 30 years ago, not now. These fans and the media are ruthless to the players. Competing and working hard are never enough. It's flash, PPG, circus business that the town wants. If Monta were to come here, they'd throw a parade.

From a franchise stand point, I think it may be the best thing even if he were married to the city, if the right package is offered. Jrue and Evan, even though inconsistent, right now can give you the same as him in the rebounding and facilitating department, less the defense. This team has major holes in two areas that need to be addressed, and he is far and away our best asset. I'm not foolish enough to believe that this unbalanced team with a soft serve front court will be competing for a title against the young quality teams anyway.

If you move him, you lose your best player, without question. You have to hope that your number 2 pick and your budding "future top 5 PG" can do well enough to stay the course. If an offer of any value comes along, that addresses the bigs and/or lands you a wing that can defend well enough to stay on the court and shoot, you pull the trigger. If not, you keep him. He is a pro. Even though his body language is sometimes poor, and he doesn't always say the right things, I know that next year, even if unhappy, he'll play his game and make the team better.

Turtle Bay reply to Ryan F on May 5 at 21:11

Well said. He certainly has taken a lot of abuse over the last few years, and I can see that embittering him towards the city, but I wonder how he feels about his current teammates. The guys on the team all seemed to get along this year, and on the court, it appeared that they were better than the sum of their parts. If he does truly like the other players on the team on a personal level, I can see him at least partially wanting to be here, and I don't think he would ever play with less than his full effort, especially if he is also playing with teammates who he likes. I wonder if there is any information out there about how much Iguodala hangs out with the other players in his free time, and what the group dynamic is in general. I've read that the younger guys are pretty close. I wonder how Iguodala fits in with everybody else.

At what point does the 'want to win a title' thing become acceptable for a player to talk about being traded?

Seriously, Iguodala most likely isn't going to win a title in Philadelphia, and I'm still not sure the team can even contend as a serious conference finals contender during the peak prime of his career, so at what point is it best for the long term health of a franchise AND a player like Iguodala to part ways.

It seems, more often than not, that a team waits too long, and you end up like the KG deal, or the Iverson deal, or you have to hope you get lucky and get Kevin Garnett.

If you're team isn't close to winning a title, I personally favor the too early than too late trading style because you 'get more' for the long term future. (For instance, I thought the sixers waited WAY too long to trade Iverson, I thought post 2002 was the time)

"while the team was in Miami for the first two games of this series, the two of them sat down for dinner. It is not something Iguodala usually does. Normally he keeps to himself on the road."


I agree with every thing said in this post except that it's been 20+ years since I've been a full time resident (holy damn where does the time go) but hopefully that will change in the next couple years if everything goes to plan.

You kidding me, you want to go back to that dump of a city? I got out as soon as I turned 18 and never looked back!

Well, actually the suburbs, but all major metropolises (metropoli?) have good and bad parts.

This is true. The problem with the "nice" parts of the Philly area is that they are incredibly boring. But I will give Philly credit for its location, easy access to NYC, Atlantic City, and DC. Although that of course reflects my thoughts of the city, when I visit family the only thing I can think of is "close to AC, close to AC."

Everyone finds different things boring and interesting, I doubt we have the same definition of boring.

probably true haha

eddies' heady's on May 6 at 0:12

He's just proved how much of a loser he is by skipping out on not only his bosses, but his teammates too. He thinks this is all about him just like when he sat down after, I think, the DiLeo year and "told" management who they should keep/try to get/what to do. He has about as much business telling management what they should do as he does disrespecting and turning his nose up at the organization that has pacified and coddled him at every turn. Except for the glaring fact that they couldn't help but tripping over themselves throwing out too large contracts to not-so-deserving players during his tenure here which prevented them from adding better talent around him.

He was coasting on quite a few plays in that Miami series that I pointed out here showing his loser mentality, but no insight from the analyzers on his obvious transgressions. If Lou or Hawes did those things they'd be magnified but Iguodala gets a pass for some reason.

He thinks he's elite, he's always thought he was of the elite, yet his thoughts of himself and his game don't coincide. His ego has always been about the size of those big black rim glasses he sports. I love the guy's defense and respect the heck out of parts of his on-court game but he's a sorry excuse for a leader of a team. His peak is leading you to the height of mediocrity and that's nothing to sneeze at.

If he isn't showing blatant selfishness with this immature stunt, what is being 'selfish' then? This team and organization doesn't owe him shit. They pay his ass handily to do a job. If he's going to take this type of approach then I can only wish it comes back on him in the form of shipping him somewhere like Minnesota or Toronto and let him see how elite he can really be there. He thinks he's LeBron, when if you actually think about it he is in a sense. He's got to ride someone else's coattails to a 'ship, cause he sure as hell ain't leading a team to one.

Just for old times sake he needs a send off:
Andre Iguodala, our superstar, national recognition doesn't matter, wins do, but not 27 of 'em this year, but a whopping 41 of 'em.

Good riddance, it's been one maybe two years overdue as I said back then. Let your fingers do the walking Thorn..

Best defensive wing in the league. That's elite.

#2 in assists among SFs. That's elite.

#1 assist-to-turnover ratio for SFs. That's elite.

#6 in rebounding for SFs. That's elite.

Basically, the only thing he isn't elite at is scoring, and even in that department he's far from a drag on a team's offense.

The problem here isn't that Iguodala thinks too highly of himself, it's that the sheep who evaluate him think scoring supersedes every other aspect of the game.

And there's a reason no one responded to your idiotic critique of that one play in the playoffs, for some reason you seem to think Iguodala could've come to a complete stop, turned around and chased down Dwyane Wade who was already eight feet ahead of him, at full speed, sprinting down the wing. No one in the world could've caught Wade on that play, but keep harping on it. It really proves a point.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on May 6 at 1:01

Why are you diverting and limiting that Iguodala play to only "chasing down Wade"? With a smidgen of interested effort he could've affected that play in several other ways. There's no denying or spinning that. I bet you'd see it differently if it was Lou that turned it over and displayed that lack of effort.

You're actually going to ignore that he was jogging back down court? All the way back down court? Notice how you said Wade was "sprinting". Dre must have been immune to doing that on that particular play huh?

You're going to ignore the fact that he could have gotten back into the play by catching up to LeBron (who stole the ball from him and caused Dre to ALREADY come to a complete stop when he picked it from him) since Jrue stunted his forward momentum and caused LeBron to have to dribble behind his back and nearly come to a complete stumbling stop doing it?

You're really going to gloss over he could have caught back up to LeBron and even fouled him preventing a break/layup?

As for the others:
best defensive wing in the league is debatable.

What did the other three high statistical rankings by just his position actually lead us to? What good are the numbers at end of the games and seasons when all that matters are wins and losses, right?

And he can be considered a drag on a team's offense just from the fact that the other guy guarding him doesn't have to work hard on that end of the floor. You don't have to expend too much energy giving a cushion inviting him to take a jumper he'll often gladly take.

Guess this is idiotic too, huh?

At least I didn't go the idiotic route of labeling him *our superstar*; that, without the our, he'll never be.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have run back down the floor, what I'm saying is that it didn't make a difference on that play. He wasn't getting back into it, both Wade and LeBron were already headed in the opposite direction. That play wasn't nearly as bad as a couple Wade pulled in the series where he was the only guy standing on the other end of the floor complaining about the lack of a call while the Sixers ran 5 on 4 on the other end.

And it's completely Iguodala's fault that he's playing for a team that relied on Hawes, Nocioni, Battie, Songaila, Kapono and Speights for 20% of the team's total minutes. That has nothing to do with finishing with only 41 wins, it's completely on Iguodala for not being starry enough to carry them further.

They should really put a name on the psychological disorder of blaming the solution for a problem, Philadelphiaism?

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on May 6 at 10:46

Well, if it took six guys to account for 20% of total minutes I'd say it didn't have much of an effect at all on the won/loss total because they weren't really "relied" on.

You're asking me is it completely on Iguodala for not being starry enough? I mean, you're the one who just claimed above he's elite - at multiple things. If someone's THAT elite then shouldn't they in essence be able to carry you further than a .500 record?

Frankie on May 6 at 21:38

Brian, the Clippers are a logical trade partner for Iggy; check some of these exercepts from this Clippers article. The writer spoke with Clippers GM Neal Olshey...
So what would the Clippers have to offer to get that high-level small forward?

"We've got $5.3 million in cap room right now to do an uneven deal," said Olshey. "We've got the Minnesota pick unprotected in 2012. We've got two second-round picks. We've got our first-protected to 10 next year. So we've got a lot of deal-making assets."

So they would really consider moving that pick?

"Draft picks, whether you use them to acquire a player or whether you use them to make a deal better, everything is just an asset to make your team better," said Olshey. "You can't get married to the concept of a draft pick and what it possibly could bring.

The Clippers can technically send out just the Minnesota pick for a player making up to $5.3 million.

If a suitor were willing to take back role players like Randy Foye, going into his final year ($4.25 million next season) or Ryan Gomes ($4 million each for two seasons), that number jumps to over $9 million back. Take both and the Clippers can absorb up to $13.5 million.

Another young, veteran three could be Andre Iguodala who the Philadelphia 76ers owe $44.2 million to over the next three years. LA would need to send out enough to bring back $12.3 million to acquire Iguodala.

The difficulty there is that Coach Doug Collins is very fond of Andre and the Sixers overcame a dreadful start to make the postseason before losing in five to the Miami HEAT.

There's no guarantee that either team will let go of what might be their best players although the Minnesota pick would certainly have its appeal.

Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=19701#ixzz1LctNtKZA

Frankie reply to Frankie on May 6 at 21:44

The question is:

Would you trade Iggy to the Clippers for:

Randy Foye's expiring contract
Ryan Gomes-Will be an expiring contract 2012-13
Minny unprotected 2012 pick
$5.3 million trade exception which will provide $5.3 million in cap relief

I would absolutely, because I think Foye is good, I think Gomes is good, and the pick is great (in a deep draft). I still think the problem is Iggy's contract kills their chance of getting Dwight so I think he's not what LAC is looking for.

I think LAC wants Dwight and will not add any salary beyond next season.

What makes you think the clippers want howard, would pay for howard and that howard wants to go there?

The Lakers are imploding, which I think will motivate them to get Dwight Howard and over pay for him...the magic need to do something this off season and Dwight Howard has to be at a level of 0 confidence in the front office.

The longer the Magic wait to trade him the more 'Melo' like it'll be in Orlando whenever the next season is played.

There's nothing in their history that indicates the clippers would be a player for Dwight Howard

Well everyone wants Howard. The Clippers gave away Baron Davis and a #1 just to get his contract off the books, opening up 2012 cap room. I think Howard was the big reason for that.

Lakers have Bynum and Kupchak loves him. Also, Lakers are aging and have no cap space. They already have $67M locked up for 2012-13, not counting Bynum. Even if they dumped Bynum, $67M is still probably over the cap, and I don't see any way on earth Orlando trades Howard to the Lakers (no way they would facilitate Shaq 2), so from what I see, Lakers cannot get Howard.

In fact, I see no way Orlando trades him at all. They've revolved their whole franchise around him. I think they drag it to the end.

Clippers have extreme youth in Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon, and cap space. It's the only way Howard can get to LA. Seems like the perfect fit.

I'm still not convinced Howard is leaving Orlando, but if he does, I think the Clippers are one of the favorites along with the Nets and Knicks.

This is the best deal for Philly on May 7 at 13:15

So the deal is Iggy to the Clippers for a 2012 unprotected Minny pick, cap relief, and 2 resonable deals--Sign me up. Great long term deal for the Sixers. We need a Superstar and the most likely way of getting him is theough the draft, and 2012 looks to be a great draft.


The sixers get a pick in what could be a pretty weak draft because of a new CBA restriction that you have to spend 2 years in college, not one, to enter the draft.

Cap room, but not really enough to sign a long term free agent (plus who would sign after you traded your best player for crap)

And 2 more role players

Wow - that's awesome

eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on May 7 at 14:59

But isn't it really the opposite though, I mean if these guys maybe have to stay in school for 2 years, won't that make them better prospects for having learned fundamentals more and the game more therefore making the draft stronger?

Well I think he means the 2012 draft will not include any freshmen. It's a good point that I hadn't thought of. The 2012 draft will have some good sophomores, but yeah, it'll be kinda shredded if not a single freshman can enter.

I'd still do the trade, cuz Iggy wants out, I like Foye and Gomes, and there should still be some good players available at Minnesota's slot.

What stoned said.

The 'hype' surrounding the 2012 draft depth right now includes a lot of guys who will be freshman in the 2011/2012 college season (high school seniors right now)

I believe the NBA wants a second year on the one and done deal, and I believe for all their noise, the players union doesn't really care, they just are putting up a fight so later on they concede on a point (it seems) to get what they want (I also believe the owners know it so it's a game of chicken really - if the owners won't relent or give in when do the players admit they don't care). If the one and done rule becomes two and done - the projected amazingness of the 2012 draft is reduced by the fact that all those projected one and done kids can't come out until 2013.

When folks rave about the upcoming 2012 draft they ignore the possibility that the new CBA will change who can come out into it.

I believe many of the projected 2012 top picks (at this moment) are high school seniors - and they would not be allowed to be in the 2012 draft IF the nba gets their two and done rule (which i believe they will - and have for a while now)

NO TRADES should be made until a new CBA is negotiated. Period.

Yeah I agree with all your points. Players union's proposal to revert back to the "no college required" rule was such a joke, it was clearly nothing but a negotiating ploy so they can concede it in return for something else. When it comes down to it, the existing union members probably like the idea of increasing the age to 20/sophomore. Another weak draft increases the chances that some crappy vets get to hang around the league one more year.

They really could care less about the rookies. It's why the union agreed long ago to the rookie wage scale, even before the lockout of '98. And it's why the NFL players union agreed to a minimum age of 20 long ago, and reportedly has already agreed to a rookie wage scale in their current negotiations.

Check out 'scorecasting' - they got some cool info about how first round draft picks are just paid WAY too much money in the NFL - what I don't understand is why a rookie wage scale wasn't popped into the NFL earlier

Cool, will check that out. Yeah agreed, the players cost themselves a lot of money by not agreeing to a rookie wage scale earlier. Rookies were taking more money than the vets!

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