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Jrue Holiday: Prediction vs. Performance

I definitely see Jrue as a potential star. Predictions were pretty much on point, well done. The only thing that bothered me about Jrue this year was that he doesn't seem to understand what a pick and roll is. Brand would always set picks for him, and then Brand would be wide open, but Jrue would just pass the ball the opposite direction, making the pick worthless. Was very bizarre. Brand's best games were with Iggy as point forward for that reason, I believe.

Video: The Sixers' Courtney Witte on the importance of character and expecting to get a "high-level player" at No. 16 in the draft:

http://ow.ly/5dOyP

Learned from the Speights experience?

Can Jrue score 26 ppg? If not, I don't think he'll be considered a star.

Anyway, how many teams whose best player is their PG actually end up winning anything? I love Jrue, but I think we need a big man to play in the post and run the pick and roll with Jrue.

Since when did scoring 26 ppg become the benchmark for being a star?

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mopey reply to KellyDad on Jun 9 at 14:14
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I guess Derek Rose isn't a star then.

If the following was true(ESPN.COM). We do a 3 way trade and send Ellis to the Wolves for the 2nd pick and filler.

"On Friday, I detailed the Timberwolves' draft strategies in the wake of signing Ricky Rubio to a contract. Here's the CliffsNotes version: Publicly, the team is claiming that they're likely to hang on to the pick. Privately, they're hoping that a team comes along and offers them an impact veteran -- someone such as Pau Gasol, Monta Ellis or even JaVale McGee -- for the pick." ESPN.com

Please no more trade talk. Let's talk Jrue.

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sfw reply to KellyDad on Jun 9 at 8:43
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The GM in me just won't let it go.

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Kevin Ollie reply to sfw on Jun 9 at 8:40
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Golden State would trade Monte for #2 in a heartbeat

The way that Jrue improved from his rookie season has given Sixers fan someone to really watch.

Story: Talented players work out for Sixers:

http://ow.ly/5dQOv

(with videos, including Vucevic on right side of page)

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Marcus on Jun 9 at 8:51
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Big jrue holiday fan and I definitely could be wrong but I don't see jrue as reaching top 5 PG in the league. I can see him possibly in the top 10 though just my opinion.

Being really good for a twenty-year-old is cool, but the leap from really good to great needs to happen quickly, or sometimes it never happens.

This is an excellent point. I'm not as impressed by the 20-year old thing as others, because to me the age is just a number. Unless one claims that getting good at a young age means extra years at the back end of a player's prime (and there isn't enough data to verify that hypothesis one way or the other), it doesn't matter whether he's 20 or 24. And there's no guarantee that Jrue will be with the Sixers at the back end of his prime. What the Sixers are assured of is the front end of his prime, during which he'll be younger than most other PGs at similar points in their careers.

The key, as Brian points out, is continued improvement. In 2010-11, Jrue performed essentially at the level of Luke Ridnour (better rebounding, worse shooting, same passing, slightly worse defense). That makes Jrue a "good" player, but no one thinks of Ridnour as a franchise cornerstone. The good news is that continued improvement is well within Jrue's reach, particularly on defense (there's no way he should be mentioned in the same breath as Ridnour on defense). But potential does not always translate to performance, and I'll be interested to see how Jrue progresses.

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Greg Ostertag reply to Statman on Jun 9 at 9:18
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Chauncey Billups, Steve Nash

Earlier in the playoffs, there was a lot of chatter about Jrue and Westbrook.

Their age 20 seasons match up pretty nicely, hopefully Holiday develops as more of a facilitator since he doesn't have the explosiveness that Westbrook has.

Question - (Assuming an Iguodala trade) Would it be better for Jrue long term if he were the primary scorer in 11/12 or if Turner or Young matured into that role?

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Ryan F on Jun 9 at 9:08
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Right now, myself, I would not trade Jrue Holiday for another PG in this league, and there is only a handful of players at any position I would consider moving him for.

I not only think he can be a "top 5" PG, I think he can be the best, or arguably so. The kid has everything you possibly need to be a dominant player on both ends of the floor. Great floor vision, great character, great size for position, good instincts, good jump shot, can finish at the rim, good handle, nice moves in the paint, lock down man to man defense at times, at 20 years old.

To me, he doesn't have a ceiling. If he puts in the work and is put in the proper position, there is no limit to what he can do.

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ryano reply to Ryan F on Jun 9 at 9:31
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To be a true superstar in this league at point guard, you have to have supreme athleticism- IMO. Jrue is limited by his physical gifts. So he has to have a ceiling. I would only place one guy in the league in the no-ceiling category and that would be LeBron James. If he worked hard enough and cared enough- he could play whatever position he wanted to at the highest level in the league. Give him a post game, the ability to knock down 85% of his free throws, and the desire to get to the line...game over. Jrue has a ceiling- I'm just hoping it's as high as we think it is.

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Ryan F reply to ryano on Jun 9 at 12:23
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I don't care if he is ever a "superduperstar". I don't think he has to be uber athletic either. I'll take a Jason Kidd/Steve Nash type PG over a Westbrook/Rose type any day. That's only my preference.

I think he can average somewhere around 19/9/5 efficiently and be a lock down defender at that spot. He needs to get a better understanding of team defense, work on getting to the line, make smart decisions, and be the feature of an offense with complimentary players around him.

I think he can average somewhere around 19/9/5 efficiently and be a lock down defender at that spot.

A point guard like that - they would be a super duper star

5 rebounds?

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 13:07
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The numbers were out of thin air, and the assist/reb numbers may be lofty. The point I am trying to make is, I think if he were the focal point of an offense, he would put up gaudy numbers and the team would be successful.

off the top of my head there were a few seasons where Iguodala averaged in the neighborhood of 18/7/6, and he is a "third nana", right? Being a "superstar" as they say goes beyond numbers. It's hype and gate lure as well.

jrue is good and will get better within time, if the sixers get an actually big that will also help jrue alot

i can see it now jrue throwing alley-oops to dwight howard

Agree. It does not have to be a superstr like Dwight. But they need to find an athletic big soon so that Jrue can build some chemistry and make a long term impact. I keep going back to the Payton-Kemp thing.

They don't like athletic bigs, that's why they got Haws

Hawes is sneaky slow. He is a whole lot slower and less coordinated tha he looks :)

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Jun 9 at 14:10
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When you watch him try to do normal everyday things you realize how uncoordinated he is. For example, the way he holds a cup of gatorade on the bench.

Forgot to mention this in in the post above, but Jrue doesn't really need to make drastic improvements across the board to reach the next level. Two things will make a major, major difference.

1. Consistency on the defensive end. He's got elite defensive skills, he needs to put them on display every night.

2. Free throws. His goal needs to be 5.0 FTA/36 minutes next season. He was only at 2.6 this season, that's terrible. He can use his dribble, change-of-pace and size to get into the paint whenever he wants, now he needs to learn how to initiate the contact and finish through the contact using his size.

Make those two strides this season and the sky's the limit.

How's he going to get 26 ppg that way?

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 10:51
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I agree. Why some people think you have to score 20ppg to be a good and 35ppg + to be great is just well it goes without saying.

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emtmess reply to emtmess on Jun 9 at 10:52
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Sorry that 35ppg was to be 25ppg.

I agree and that's why i think Jrue is going to be great. There is really not a single hole in his game. If he can improve his FT rate, which is something that improves with experience IMO, he will be able to hurt the opponent in a variety of way on the offensive end. And on the defensive side of the ball i think it's only a matter of consistency (which will come with experience as well) before he becomes an elite defender at the PG spot.

And i completely disagree that Jrue is not athletic enough to be successful. He is an above average to great athlete IMO.

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eddies' heady's on Jun 9 at 10:59
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Well, Statman summed it up rather nicely for me. As of now, Jrue's just another run-of-the-mill point guard in this league. Nothing against him, but nothing to sneeze at either.

The youth / age thing does sort of come into play for me, though. He still makes boneheaded decisions as the caretaker of the ball, things that make you say WTF!? Just careless and outright silly turnovers that you should have gotten out of your system in high school.

And he just doesn't have those true point guard instincts as of yet. Just the innate ability to see things a pass or two before they are going to happen. Or the ability to attack an obvious mismatch (some of this could be system/coaching), or attack a defender that is in foul trouble. Or the ability to initiate contact with deception (ala Andre Miller).

These two very important things will ripen or expand with age, or at least they should. Just understanding the value of the ball and possessions within a game and how important "each" one is whether the first 5 minutes of a game in addition to the last 5. And just adding more tools to your bag, expanding your offensive repertoire, and incorporating more tricks to your trade. Along with expanding your mental capacity of game situations so you can affect a game just as much mentally as you possibly could physically.

As for his defense, that's probably better left unsaid. There were countless times this past season when Lou was worthy of being on the floor over him (and Doug kept him out there).

I don't ever see Jrue making an All Star team as long as some of these other point guards that are in the East stay there. And as much as I'd want it to happen, I don't see him as anything close to becoming that "star" we're all hoping for. And he'll never be what seems to be a favorite term now, this top 5 PG thing. Too many of his peers that are already better with room to grow are around his age so I can't see him cracking that throughout his career either.

A good player to have, but as was mentioned, the leap from good to great is a mightly tall hurdle for many, not just some.

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emtmess reply to eddies' heady's on Jun 9 at 11:33
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witch point guards are you refering to in the east that are so much better. I could see Rondo, D. Williams, Rose. That would mean with not much of an improvment Jrue can be a top 4/5 pg in the east. That being said I think it is who the team puts next to him that is more important. Look at the finals teams for the last 10 years and see what the top 3 players roles had been. I think Jrue with a litle improvement could fit in a top 3 player on most of thoose teams and thoose teams would still win the championship.

Wait, there's witches in the NBA? I thought when they were dudes they were called warlocks?

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eddies' heady's reply to emtmess on Jun 9 at 11:56
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I didn't say so much better than Jrue, the context was referring to making an All Star game. As long as Rose and Rondo, maybe Deron Williams if he stays, and Wall and Brandon Jennings are in the East. Maybe soon to be Kyrie Irving too.

Does it really matter if one makes an all star game or not - fans, and then players/coaches, vote on those things.

Fans, as a whole, are idiots, and the players/coaches have their own idiot plans for voting

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eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 12:02
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Urine in your cornflakes? Or just panties in a wad?

No it doesn't matter if one is awarded in the annual poplularity contest, it has been thrown out multiple times that Jrue is a future all star in the past few days so I was just touching on that opinion by others with mine.

Neither, it was a legitimate question. Why are you talking about all star games as some sort of relevant barometer of anything important...they aren't.

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eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 12:09
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Who mentioned important?

Your comprehension is way off sometimes. Did I just not say that it was a counter opinion to others who said they see him becoming one?

You just like me, that's what it is, because I didn't see you responding to those who said he would be an all star and asking them why it mattered.

Yes, I like you, I also like ebola virus and bleeding pustules in the same way.

I find you laughable. An internet bully who respects no opinions that don't agree with his own because he feels no one could possibly understand the game better than he does, and yet, no one hires you to work on the game - you just bitch and moan and whine on the internet like the rest of us.

You're mostly a douchebag, that's all.

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CM reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 13:44
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To be fair...

jem is an expert on interweb douchebaggery.

I don't think Rondo is that good to be honest. He is great only because of the system he is in. As soon as Pierce and Allen go he won't even be anywhere near an allstar game. It's going to be hard for him to maintain a top 5 PG in the east stature. As for Jennings, how exactly is he better than Jrue? Not to mention that he is a year older. As for Irving, he may be the No.1 pick but he is not really a superstar in the making. It's unlikely he will be better than Jrue.

The only real threats to Jrue (currently in the NBA and in the East) are Williams, Rose and possibly Wall.

I don't think it's inconceivable that Holiday could exceed Rondo one day. Rondo can't score and needs a lot of scorers around him for that to not be a problem. Holiday's already better than Jennings. Wall has more upside, but which one's going to be the better player is a very open question. Right now, Wall might be the worst mid-to-long range shooter in the league, and suffers from turnover problems.

If Jrue ever reaches the numbers he put up in the 15 games Iguodala missed then I would be very happy:

Pts: 17.1
Asst: 8.7
Reb 3.8
FG: 48.51%
3pt: 36.36%

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jun 9 at 11:07
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While I don't seem too excited about him becoming this much better player, those stretch of games had me admittedly very excited. I remember commenting after that stretch, "where did that player disappear to?". He just went into the tank after Andre came back and took a while to peep his head back out of that hole. But what a whirlwind of games he put together which probably was a big reason we finished in 7th place instead of ending up in 8th (which may have been better anyway, oh well...).

IN your defense, you don't think anyone on the sixers roster can get better and you are convinced they keep making the wrong draft picks and could have done better

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Steve V on Jun 9 at 11:20
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I don't think Jrue will ever be a 20ppg scorer , but that's completely fine he doesn't need to be that to be one of the best pgs in the league. I'd much rather him be a 10+ assist guy and score 16 or 17 a night. As long as the ball is in his hands during crunch time is what matters to me. I want him to be the primary decision maker, and if he sees it fit that he has to get 30 that night to get a win so be it, If it only takes 13 and getting balanced scorig everywhere else, that's great too.

The latest shitty Iguodala rumor:

Orlando has offered Hedo and Jameer for Iguodala. link.

The Sixers would probably have to throw Nocioni into the deal, meaning they'd not only be taking a tremendous talent downgrade and creating a problem at the PG position, but they'd be adding on three years of salary combined in the two players they'd be taking back. At this quote was in the story:

"Iguodala has been linked to the Orlando Magic in a deal built around Hedo Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson, although sources near the 76ers say that's the least attractive offer they have received."

The 76ers have had their share of suitors, with Cleveland offering to absorb Iguodala's $13.5 million salary using their $14.5 million Traded Player Exception.

This could be a case of the media hanging on to a name, but with so many rumors floating around it's hard to imagine how Philadelphia manages the situation if a deal does not go down and with Evan Turner waiting in the wings, Iguodala seems like the best chip to cash, especially for a team that will not be permitted to spend any more money.

The Sixers hold the 16th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft and are believed to be locked in on Kansas big man Markieff Morris.

I doubt Morris will ever be an average NBA starter, but I have serious doubts about everyone projected at #16.

I don't have any insight into this draft and aside from Derek, I don't think anyone here has enough information to know one way or another, I was just posting content from the same article brian linked to that I thought was relevant :)

"Iguodala has been linked to the Orlando Magic in a deal built around Hedo Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson, although sources near the 76ers say that's the least attractive offer they have received."

It's hard to judge which offer is the least attractive :)

How can any deal be less attractive than one involving Chris Kaman - I mean - he's the ugliest dude in the NBA

I guess the only good thing to take from all of these horrible trade offers we've been getting for Iguodala is that there are at least a bunch of team out there that want him. Hopefully, someone wants him enough to offer something that's at least reasonable. I'd be very interested to hear rumors of any counter offers Thorn is throwing back at teams. Especially, if he threw one back at the Clippers that didn't involve Kaman. I just want to know where his head is at.

There are a bunch of teams that want him if they can buy him for pennies on the dollar.

Do you think he should be traded for pennies on the dollar?

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Walter reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 11:59
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That's clearly not the point.

It should be the point. No one has made a reasonable offer (according to reports) they've offered crap and junk because the perception is that the sixers 'have' to trade Iguodala, which they don't.

If the sixers buy into the perception (and they have in the past) that they have to move Iguodala, they'll make the best of the shitty deals instead of realizing they could just KEEP him

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Scott reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 12:34
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Dude, I said the offers we have gotten so far are horrible and that I hope we can get an offer thats at least more reasonable. I didn't say we necessarily need to take any of the offers. I certainly didn't say anything about trading him for "pennies on the dollar" or just taking the best offer we can get regardless of how shitty it is.

All I did is make the point that it's at least positive that people want Iguodala. You really kill me sometimes with all the hate.

And you really kill me sometimes with stupidity.

None of the offers are good, I'm not sure why bad offers means someone will make a good offer.

I read what you wrote, and if you want to polyannaly believe that just because lots of teams are making shit offers, soeone will make a good offer, go right ahead, but I don't live in candyland like you do.

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ryano reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 13:20
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Hoping someone offers something better is not equal to believing it will and should happen.

Everyone gets it- you don't want him to be traded. Berating people to get that point across isn't very constructive to any of these posts. Flushing out the different possible scenarios doesn't mean any of us think its the best option- just that we'd like to speculate as to what may happen and if it does, which of the options we may prefer.

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Scott reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 13:22
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I DIDN'T SAY THAT JUST BECAUSE TEAMS ARE MAKING BAD OFFERS THAT IT MEANS SOME TEAM WILL MAKE A GOOD OFFER!!

Hellooooooo????

All I said is, at least teams have an interest in him.

THAT'S IT!! Accept it as written and be done with it.

Wow.

Wasn't really necessary to call me stupid either. Thanks for ruining this blog.

Brian, I'm still holding out hope that one day you'll actually do something about John randomly being a dick to people out of nowhere. Jeeeezzzz.

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raro reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 14:06
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GoSixers, you have officially invaded my subconscious. I thought of you immediately when I saw this last night...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/388737/rated-arg-for-pirates#tab=featured

Hey - south park is the shiz - i remember when it was only a pirate download of the 'christmas card' that led to the tv show.

I consider that a huge compliment :)

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jkay reply to raro on Jun 9 at 15:03
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haha spot on. guys like that are annoying and right at the same time.
I know that cos I do the same thing. Ppl find it a huge turn off. It's tough to hold back.

Here's my life philosophy.

I say what I believe, I believe what I say, and whether or not peopple like me - i really don't care.

Contrary to popular belief to many - I have very good friends - i have people who love me - and i'm just as irritating and annoying when i think i'm right in real life as I am online - which is why i have to be particular about where i work cause i know i could easily get fired.

There's other stuff about me that has no relevance on a blog - but i learned long ago - that if people don't like me - or hate me - it was a revelation i think more people should come upon - if everyone likes you - you're doing something wrong

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eddies' heady's reply to Scott on Jun 9 at 12:06
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You can thank Ed Stefanski and that no-bid overpaid contract he shelled out for the reason they're not going to get anything of value for him. That and that alone is enough of a reason for the scraps that will continue to come our way.

I think we need other teams help way more than they need Andre Iguodala's help at that much of a price.

I wonder if Batum + Filler for Iguodala is still on the table. That deal looks so good in retrospect, but we may have missed our chance when they traded for Wallace...

It's Dan Gelston's Associated Press story on Iverson -- without the byline:

http://cnsnews.com/node/93799

I don't get how ESPN can basically steal articles without attribution and not get called on it?

Ugh, can we tone it down a bit in here today. The Sixers are driving me crazy enough on their own, can't deal with squabbles here too.

Yeah, I'd rather hear about peoples opinions about issues than their opinions about the merits of other posters.

Those Williams stats are really impressive. But how much was due to him being a mismatch physically with whomever guarded him?

That may still be the case in the NBA, but not to nearly the extent.

Jrue doesn't throw up enough lobs and ally-oops. I think that is a part of the Sixers offensive game that has been missing since he took over.

Look at tape from 09-10. That part of the offense is missing because we had Spencer Hawes and Elton Brand splitting time at the five, neither of whom is capable of catching and finishing a lob.

It is hard to find a guy capable of catching and finishing a lob, i mean how long has it been since the sixers had a guy like that, 11, 12 months? Jeez

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 14:16
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Yeah but that guy for all his "positive" talents also had plenty of things that made it very hard to say this guy is center. Just because of our lack of a good all around center we should not sugarcoat what our last center was. I used to hear people in the Army say a lot (this was back in 94-98) They loved the last Fort/Barracks they were at and hate the one they are at now.

Would you rather the sixers start Sam Dalembert or Spencer Hawes

It's a simple yes no question

And odn't bring up any of that locker room bullshit - you have an uptight white republican in the NBA - i'm sure a lot of people hate hawes

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 14:33
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I think Hawes was more liked than Sammy was among players, and that seemed pretty obvious from watching. It's all spec though.

Now it is a shame that the nice guy isn't a good player.

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 14:35
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It was not the lockerroom stuff and yeah it is a easy question of if I had to choose I would pick Sammy over Spencer. That being said if I wanted to make the team better going forward I would not pick Spencer or Sam. Spencer for obvious reasons. Sam because on the court he would play great for a whole game and then the next he would play awful. Or even in the same game he would being doing good then at the worst time he would make a very bad play. The worst part about it is that he has talent to be average to really good maybe he just could not keep out of his own way. It was like instead of dominating the other player sometimes he was ok with playing to there level or lower.

Dwight Howard makes mistakes, sometimes in the same game he's doign well he does stupid things.

I make mistakes

You make mistakes

Maybe you shouldn't expect perfection from anyone - it's impossible - sam has al imited game but he's VERY good at what he can do - OVERALL (small sample size you know) - Spencer Hawes sucks at almost everything

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 14:55
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Thats why I said I would pick Sam over Spencer. I also have no proble if they bring him back. I think Sam is better than Spencer, but I also think that the team played better with Brand at the 5 then the team had played with both Spencer and Sam at the 5.

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Stephon reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 13:58
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I know, but I haven't seen Andre or Thad getting many lobs. Also back in 09' Dalembert wasn't getting any lobs until Iverson came in.

How much value does a complimentary player with knee issues, on a hefty contract have (around the league)?

I wouldn't trade him for Eliis or Kaman stright up, but he's got his warts and he's the same relative age as the Heat's core.

I'm not sure what they have to do with it but wade's 'age' is much older than lebrons cause he's been hurt a lot.

He doesn't have knee 'issues' - he had some injuries this year but before this year he hardly ever missed game.

One season doesn't mean a guy is going to have issues forever

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 14:52
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ehh, you don't know that. He has a chronic knee issue, chances are that it's not just going to disappear. I'm not saying he's going to be ground bound any time soon, but the nagging injuries tend to add up over time.

You've seen his medical records and been to medical school and know that Andre Iguodala has a chronic knee injury?

To me a chronic injury is something that happens, you know, chronically, and yet for the majority of his career this wasn't an issue. How do you know it's chronic?

Is it chornic or is it just that he needed more time to heal and should have sat the rest of the season for it to fully heal. I haven't been to medical school, i'm not an orthopedist, are you?

And I'm not being a smart ass or a 'hater' but i don't know how someone can determine something like this is chronic without the proper training and seeing medical records?

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 15:03
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Plus if you add in the 2009-20010 season the World Championship the 2010-2011 season and playoffs this is the most wear and tear his body has got in a long time.
It could just be that after a nice restful offseason he will be fine.

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 15:25
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chondromalacia is considered a chronic knee condition by just about everything I've read about it.

And how do you know I'm not a doctor?

And how do you know I'm not a doctor?

Because a grown up who went to medical school wouldn't be a petty little insult thrower like yo uare - even towards me.

Because tk76 is a doctor.

If you are a doctor - i'd guess you'd be a bad one

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 16:06
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when do I ever insult you? You have me confused with somebody else. I usually do my best to get you to stop calling everyone else douchebags, which usually just ends up with me getting in the line of fire...

Alright, cut the shit. We have plenty of Sixers stuff to talk about. Stay on point.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 16:09
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anyway, chondromalacia is a chronic knee injury. From what I've read, it's not entirely unreasonable to worry that he may have bouts with it next year and going forward.

It's actually unreasonble to presume someone who never had injuries before this year will constantly have injuries going forward, sure it is, how many other basketball players with the same condition did you research to see how it affects their game? What sort of impact does long term rest (like an off season) have on it?

WIkipedia or webmd aren't exactly reliable sources of information

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 16:55
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Again, it's considered a chronic issue. None of us know how it's going to impact Iguodala going forward, but it's not totally insane to suspect that a chronic condition might rear its head again in the not too distant future.

His past is irrelevant now, just because he was healthy the firs 6 seasons does not have any bearing on how his knee will react to regular wear and tear going forward.

He asked a question - i answered it - if you consider it shit fine - then do so - but all i did was answer his question honestly

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Rich reply to CM on Jun 9 at 14:36
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My problem with that complimentary label is that people run wild with that and his value becomes really deflated. IMO you could win a title with him as the 2nd best guy, with the first being either a wing or post scorer. That puts him in the Top 25 guys in the league.

People threw around the overachieving term with this team. They asked, "How did they win 41 games with all of those weird pieces?" A huge reason for that was Andre Iguodala.

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Tray reply to Rich on Jun 9 at 15:00
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Yeah, you could win a title with him as your second best player, but you definitely can't win with him as your second scorer. He's more like a fourth option.

Now is the time for Philly to trade Iggy. His contract ascends while he physically descends. Iggy is on the pricier half of his hefty contract and is showing wear and tear and missing more and more games.
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Matt (PA)


Isn't Iguodala is being underrated. Not sure any of these deals help the Sixers get better. Hedo? Monta? Kaman (not healthy)?

John Hollinger
(2:14 PM)
It's more for tomorrow than today certainly. Idea is that Iggy's contract is OK now but could very well become an albatross in another year or two.

Wait a minute - iguodala MIGHT become an albatross?

Ellis is already

and so is turkoglu

Well I think the point is more that the time to trade Iggy is now because you only have to take back a $12M salary before July 1. After the lockout we'll have to match his escalated salary. It will make it much more difficult to trade him after July 1. Thus, the time to trade him is now.

I know you don't want to trade Iggy. I respect your opinion. Iggy is a really good player. But something behind the scenes (and in front of the scenes with his skipping his exit interview) led to what sure seems like a mutual agreement to put Iggy in a different city.

With that being the (apparent) case, it's much smarter to trade him now, so we have to trade him for the best deal we can get for him. If it's Ellis, well he's a good scorer but has his own annoying contract. If it's for Kaman, well he's a good rebounder, though generally he stinks, but it's major cap relief headed into the new CBA. If it's Hedo, hopefully we can snag Brandon Bass (please not Jameer Nelson).

Unfortunately, Iggy's contract the fact that he wants to be traded kills his value. Equal value is not possible. We have to weigh the offers and choose the best one, and it seems like that's what Thorn is doing.

Also, Thorn may know exactly what he's doing with Iggy, but is waiting till after the finals to pull the trigger. Stern doesn't like blockbuster deals during the finals.

If you know exactly how trades are going to happen under the new CBA you're the only person on the face of the earth.

The time to trade Iguodala is when you can get enough value in return to move the franchise forward. If you aren't getting that kind of value, there's no need to trade him.

People act like he's hurting the team on the court when nothing could be further from the truth.

It is possible that Iguodala will be harder to trade after the new CBA.

Could be harder, could be easier. No one knows.

Kind of like how trading Dalembert last summer to avoid paying the luxury tax a month before we even knew what the luxury tax threshold would be set at, and 8 months before you actually have to get under that level to avoid paying it, was silly. You don't make moves to avoid something uncertain. It's silly.

Sure, but IMO it is a lot more likely that his increasing contract will be harder to trade next year. Then in 2-3 years it will be easier as it comes closer to being an expiring. So it makes sense to either trade him now or hold onto him for 2+ years.

Also, he had nagging injuries this year that I doubt GM's put much stock in. He still has an iron-man reputation. But another few nagging injuries might would likely undermine his value.

Obviously we are all speculating, but you can still make a somewhat educated guess.

I'm going to speculate that a team looking to beat Miami in the playoffs will be willing to pony up more for the best defensive wing in the league at the trade deadline next year (or the year after) than they are right now when there's blood in the water.

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Max reply to stoned81 on Jun 9 at 15:16
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A declining Iggy at 14,718,000 under a new CBA is pretty gross...

Assuming he's going to decline before his 28th birthday doesn't seem logical to me, but whatever. And if salaries are rolled back?

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Clippers4life on Jun 9 at 15:09
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No way we are taking back an overpaid/overrated player. Iguodala and the 16th pick for Kaman. If not then Clippers gladly decline.

Chris Kaman has no on the court value - he's an expiring contract (which is why sterling won't trade him)

Chris Kaman is not more valuable than ANdre Iguodala - sorry - that's just insanity

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Clippers4life reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 15:20
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Kaman has way more value than Iguodala. Numbers don't lie and skilled centers don't grow on trees. Enjoy watching Spencer Howes next season. :)

Heh. What number is in Kaman's favor besides body fat %?

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Clippers4life reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 15:28
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An all star appearance.... Enough said!

Is this Mario Aquirre?

If Kaman is so valuable feel free to keep him :)

Didn't Jamaal Magloire make as many All Star appearances as Kaman?

Kaman is a better player than Hawes. Awesome vote of confidence! As for numbers not lying, I hope you are joking:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=kamanch01&y1=2011&p2=iguodan01&y2=2011

Spencer Hawes owned your boy Blake Griffin last year. Take a look:

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/one-monster-adjustment.php

Kaman is a better player than Hawes. Awesome vote of confidence! As for numbers not lying, I hope you are joking:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=kamanch01&y1=2011&p2=iguodan01&y2=2011

I'm not sure why I'm acknowledging that comment.

Your demand for the #16 is just as silly as expecting the Clips to throw in a first-rounder back to the Sixers along with Kaman.

If it goes down it'll be Iggy for Kaman, maybe a couple other expirings on both sides, but no way are first-rounders going in either direction, in my opinion.

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emtmess reply to Clippers4life on Jun 9 at 15:19
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Sorry who is the overpaid/overrated player between the the two. Who made second team all D? Andre. Who was on team USA World championship team. Andre. Who help lead his team to the playoff this year? Andre. What did Kaman do become replaceable? Oh and you think we need to add the 16th pick in to get Kaman. Now all that being said with some the trade we made last year with another Cali team I guess I can see where you might be able to get away with that felony of a trade.

Haha, OK bud. I hope you are glad. So are we, as long as that doesn't go down.

Just to break it to you, the Sixers are the ones saying no. That tells you who the better player is.

I would block him, but he'll just disappear back to wherever Clippers fans go. Probably the Valley.

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Rich reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 15:33
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Maybe it's Clipper Darrell:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2009/writers/arash_markazi/04/28/clipper-darrell/clipper-darrell.jpg

Quoting the man, Kaman is U-G-L-Y.

The Clippers aren't going to sell the farm for Iggy. They have Tayshaun Prince as a fall back option. I heard he's from LA and would love to return to LA.

Jordan/Griffin/Prince/Gordon/Williams isn't a bad starting five...

for all the people saying we need to trade Iguodala; it's that kind of thinking, employed by our inept front office that could keep putting this franchise back.
In business, you dont let emotions or sentiment get in the way.
He is our best trade chip. Yes. It's the ideal time to trade him. Yes. Must you do it? Hell No
Operate with that negotiating mindset in place and you won't get fleeced into taking Turkoglus and Kamans.

IMO Only way Ellis should come here for Igupdala is if there is something real good attached to him.

He is our best trade chip. Yes. It's the ideal time to trade him. Yes. Must you do it? Hell No

That's the key right there. So many people just can't get their minds around that.

My sincere hope is that Comcast won't have the balls to make a trade with this sale looming.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 15:31
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they won't do it unless they get approval from the new ownership group. I doubt they would at least, that's not the right way to do business.

However, if they come to Levien and he says he likes a Kaman or Ellis deal, well, we're all fucked anyway.

If new ownership OKs any of these deals, we all may as well find another team to root for for the next decade or so.

Meet the old boss, same as the new boss.

...I could be referring to the new owners or Ellis. I am not sure.

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Steve V reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 15:53
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I don't want to trade him at all, but if we do I'd rather get a player back than just a salary dump . We're not going to get a player as good as Iguodala I'm resigned to that fact, its just a shame the fans here can't appreciate a player who brings so many great qualities to a franchise just because he doesnt score 25 a night.

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Clippers4life on Jun 9 at 15:34
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My proposal.... Kaman for Turner/Nocioni/#16. That is as fair as it can get.

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johnrosz reply to Clippers4life on Jun 9 at 15:37
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is this just Tray doing some kind of performance art thing?

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Tray reply to johnrosz on Jun 9 at 15:43
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No. I wouldn't do that deal. Kaman is a small upgrade on Hawes, talent-wise anyway, but not worth giving up Turner for, as Turner may yet be a good player.

Regardless if it is "as fair as it gets" it accomplishes nothing for the sixers. We are interested in Kaman for his expriing much more than his play.

I don't think we're really interested in Kaman at all.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 15:51
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I read that Kaman has started tweeting questions about Philly, like "how many calories are in a Philly cheesesteak," and, "is the Liberty Bell really cracked?"

I saw the tweets, I think they were more sarcastic than anything.

I can see Pelinka really pushing for the trade.

The Sixers are built around a bunch of guys under age 24. Why would they be interested in a center who will be 30 next year and is only under contract 1 more season?

It would be like the Clippers trading De'Andre Jordan for a 39 year old Marcus Camby.

Haha. If this is a joke someone step forward and claim your prize.

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johnrosz on Jun 9 at 16:04
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Hey, where is all that info from on the reading list right now?

I don't know Brian, but I kind of enjoyed Clipper 4 Life. We are always at each other's throats so much. It's nice to be united against fans of other teams and their absurd claims.

Berger has a source putting Iguodala/Ellis at 50/50. F me. http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/29914237

Well if you think about it - it shouldn't change your feeling whatsoever.

Of course it's 50 50. There are two teams involved, one is saying yes - so it's 50 percent done.

The warriors don't seem to need 'adjustment' to the trade - they just need the sixers to say yes (which hopefully the won't) - so yeah it's 50:50, it's 1/2 done already

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 17:20
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That's not at all what's usually meant by 50/50. What they mean is that there's a 50/50 chance we'll do it.

Why is the moon sometimes orange?

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 17:40
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Um, it's not, it just looks that way because of some atmospheric issues. Anyway, obviously, if I offer to buy your house for $20, the deal isn't 50/50 because we're 50% of the way there to offer and acceptance.

It's just facinating. Tell me more, why does water turn into ice?

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sick of gosixers reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 17:55
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You are such a jack ass...

Fitting we talk about Jrue's potential while Sixers management potentially destroy any chance he has of reaching his ceiling.

Coach Collins: Monta, go out their a dribble around a bunch and then shoot it. Jrue, go stand in the corner like we had you do last year in the 4th quarter.

The Lou-Monta rotation will be just great basketball.

they will be battling it out for end of quarter 2 for 1 shots

"Great news, Jrue. Now you get to stand in the corner for the entire game!"

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 16:43
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any chance Doug would just use him in a glorified sixth man role?

Use Jrue in that role? May as well.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 16:45
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Haha no, I mean...maybe he just views Monta as a better version of what Lou brings to the team (even though that might be debatable when you factor in $$, TS% and such)...

Would Monta even be ok with coming off the bench? I could see him making a big stink about it

I'm sure he'll immediately say the Holiday/Ellis back court doesn't work, and no one will care because he'll score 20+ppg.

"Jrue, what we really want you to work on this summer is corner threes."

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Ryan F reply to tk76 on Jun 9 at 18:09
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and transition defense.....

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mchezo reply to tk76 on Jun 9 at 16:36
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You guys act like Somebody froze Jrue out of games last year in the fourth quarter. That did not happen. Jrue had plenty of opportunities to step up. sometimes he did okay sometimes he didn't. He will continue to grow as a player. However, to say that he has not been given the opportunity to grow or that someone has been standing in his way is bullsh*t. The sixers have done very good job of bringing him along.

For a majority of the season, Jrue had the ball taken out of his hands in the fourth quarter. That's just a fact.

Do you think Collins is ok with this trade? I know he likes lou, at least seems to, but i find it hard to believe Doug would want this.

Can't imagine Collins was thrilled with Iggy skipping his exit interview. I think they all know Iggy would prefer to be somewhere else. But really, the coach and front office loved Iggy, I think the fact that they're looking to trade him is quite the indicator that Iggy wants out.

As for Ellis, well it seemed like Collins' two favorite players this season were Lou and Thad. The two biggest gunners on the team. So I would imagine he'll love Ellis too.

I hope he goes to Chicago for Deng. That would seriously hurt Chicago, and I really can't think of a worse fit than Monta next to Rose.

Is the bulls gm an idiot?

Depends. I was just going off the teams they listed as "in the running." Chicago seems like the worst fit to me.

Well Rose is a willing passer (believe it or not) and he has enough cred for Ellis to let him dribble the ball (on ocasion.) Also Rose can guard SG's. if only Eilis could guard PG's :)

Rose being a willing passer doesn't really enter into it. Ellis isn't a good spot-up shooter. It'll just be Rose and Ellis taking turns isolating.

I think that's the kind of deal Chicago could have made at any time when everyone said they needed a two guard, and while they need an improvment - I don't thik Thibodeau would be very happy with trading one of his best defenders for a guy like Ellis. They don't need a guy like ellis at the two to make them better, and they seem smart enough to know they shouldn't rip up the core of a team that got to the conference finals just to get monta ellis

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johnrosz on Jun 9 at 16:38
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I'll be stunned if this deal goes down

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johnrosz on Jun 9 at 16:48
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Saw a mock the other day with Biyombo at 14. If Sixers managed to shake the 11th pick from GSW in the deal..it would soften the blow ever so slightly for me. I think Biyombo might be end up being a legit starter somewhere down the line. Still wish they'd get more for Iggy

If they did get the #11 pick, I'm sure Biyombo would wind up going #10 and we'd take Jimmer.

If Bismack slips down to anywhere in the general neighborhood of where the Sixers are picking be ready for me to start having a nervous breakdown... and then be a mess after the Sixers fail to get him.

for most of the past 5 years the Sixers have drafted the guy I wanted them to (Iguodala, Young, Speights and Jrue.) But that is about to end.

I'm still in shock Jrue dropped to them.

I'm still in shock that 'with the 8th pick in the nba draft, the toronto raptors select Rafael Araujo'

That was comic.

I still remember scaring everyone in my house because i screamed so loud out of joy - and remember, we didn't know the sixers were interested in Iguodala I just knew that they could take him and should take him

I remember wondering who he was. I had not even heard of Hoffa.

I had heard of him - i knew he was hyped since he was tall - but i was still worried

I think I might write a ballad to the tune of "The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald." I will call it "The legend of Bismack Biyambo."

Starts off something like:

There was a tall man from a far off land in a place called Lubumbashi.

I started hoping they would pick Jrue back when he was projected at #28. But once he moved up I thought it more likely that Jennings would be the guy who would slip to them. I figured they would have to chose between Ty Lawson and Jennings, and either would be a good choice. But I too was shocked to see Jrue stay on the board.

Although, to be fair, I was more excited when they drafted Speights...

Although, to be fair, I was more excited when they drafted Speights...

So was I

Really? I was going nuts when Jrue fell, Speights was a completely blah pick for me. I just didn't want Arthur or Randolph in that draft (I think that was the Randolph year).

I was all for Speights or de'Andre Jordan. But I thought they were going to draft Arthur.

I had thought that Speight's physical transformation from college to the draft was a sign that he was going to take basketball seriously.

And the 'albatross' of Iguodala is worth more than straight up Kaman - cause Hollinger says so

Chet (LA)
There has been a rumored Igoudala for Kaman trade. I think this trade would be amazing for the Clippers if it actually happens. Igoudala is exactly the kind of defensive stopper the Clips need. Do you think this trade will actually happen?
John Hollinger
I agree it would add a missing link for the Clipoers, but I'd be shocked if it happened without the Clips sending more back Philly's way -- picks, kids, something.

This is a really inopportune time for the Sixers to be sending me e-mails about buying a season ticket plan.

If you piece together a bunch of different reports, I think the Sixers are one of like 15 teams going to see Bismack. At least I hope that's what all the reports were adding up to.

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johnrosz on Jun 9 at 17:07
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Having visions of Monta Ellis getting blown by on the perimeter, but it's ok, because he's sending him to the big fella in the paint, Spencer Hawes.

This can't be real

And then Hawes swats it and wags his finder like Deke.

Don't take that weak stuff in here. we got Spawes.

If you look at Jrue per vs his opponent its negative for the year. explain that to me if he made such great strides this year. Look I like jrue but your analysis of his game makes it seem like you think he is the second coming of gary payton. he has got a long way to go. right now he is a slightly above average point guard. nothing more.

He's 20, in his first full season as a starter playing for a coach and he achieved what he achieved.

If you can't see that as an improvement over what he did last year - that's fine - but present a cogent argument that compares last year to this year and says 'he didn't get better'

This is jrue's net production vs opposing point guards.
As you can see he is -2.8 per. Does this support your argument that he is a top five lock? and i am aware that he is 20 years old.

Net 48-Minute Production by Position
Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG -1.6 -.024 -1.5 1% .6 .0 -.1 .1 -.1 -3.8 -2.8
SG
SF
PF
C

Brian didn't say he was a top 5p oint guard, he said he was improving. Youre' looking at one statistic, not parsing it properly and saying 'he's not going to be top 5 cause this is what he did this year - when he was 20 years old - and when his role on the team changed halfway through the season'

It's ludicrous to say he didn't progress this year compared to last year.

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mchezo reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 21:34
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First. Stop putting words in my mouth. Second get off Brian's jock. Third Brian's expresses his overall position on Jrue quite often and in the first paragraph of this article the he states it quite clearly:

If you want to hang your hat on something, if you want something to look forward to, some possible light at the end of the tunnel for our Philadelphia 76ers, only two words fit right now: Jrue Holiday.

Those are brian's words. He pumped up Jrue quite often this season. If you want to drink that Koolaid thats up to you. I like Jrue and I hope he will develop into one of the top points in the game, he shows some flashes. but right now, he is what he is. A slightly above average point guard who has a whole lot of work to do on his game. I am far from convinced that he will become all that brian thinks he will be. Thankfully, the sixers have a lot more going for them than Jrue.

The thing is that 20 year old PG's almost never play regular minutes like Jrue. Those who have are generally pretty special talents.

Its hard to know how Jrue will turn out.

The only guards in NBA history to play 2700+ minutes at age 20 (in order of minutes played):

Marbury
Rose
Jrue
Chris Paul
Magic Johnson
Tony Parker

Comparing those seasons, Jrue finsihed middle of the pack in Win Scores, assists and steals, but last in points by a few (They range from 14ppg to 18ppg.)

http://bkref.com/tiny/cpnbG

Agisn, not saying he will be as good as those guys- just saying its hard to judge any NBA PG at age 20, because so few have played the heavy minutes that Jrue has, and Jrue's production holds up pretty well.
Like I said,

Did you read the article yesterday on this site about Jrue having roughly average NBA production?

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Kyle reply to tk76 on Jun 9 at 18:31
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Right. And the point being made is that at 20 years old, in your first full season running the point, ranking as slightly above average in the league is rather promising.

This is a kid who was a National Player of the Year in high school and highly regarded as an amazing basketball talent. He fell into a tough situation at UCLA and wasn't asked to do much aside from defend. He was regarded by many as lottery talent and he fell to us.

Numbers aside, if you watched the Sixers the past two seasons, you could see the improvement from Jrue Holiday. It was pretty fucking obvious.

To think this kid has some serious potential is far from asinine.

I think you are responding the wrong poster.

I was simply replying to mchezo, who had criticized us all for being unaware that Jrue is merely average. I mentioned that there was an article about that yesterday.

I've always been a huge fan of Jrue.

Totally unrelated - but has anyone noticed a growing distrubring trend that i first noticed on this web site.

Are 'graphic' ads on various web sites you go to becoming UNERRINGLY close to representing exactly near you or your most recent internet searches or web page visits/ It's really spoooky

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 18:28
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haha, don't act dumb, you know the deal; social networking, phishing, browsing history, pop-up surveys, forms and information gathering of all sorts. It's the future of advertising. Get used to it; they'll come for you.

I get that, but i used to think 'legitimate' ad sources (like google and such and services) were purely based on cookies - and how can a site not depressedfan.com read my cookies from their other sites.

I mean no one else saw an ad for lucky clover trading company i'm sure - but i did since i went to their website to search for gift baskets for use at work.

Hell I have a great social networking idea but no idea how to find people to build it / invest in it :(

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Kyle reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 18:35
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pretty sure its based off your IP address. you leave a digital footprint pretty much everywhere you go on the web.

i could be totally wrong though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Well - my ip address is shared by everyone i work with - but i don't see the crap they search :)

And I don't htink that's possible

There are Geolocation IP databases. They can narrow you to within 15-20 miles based on your ip address (which is sent in every http request).

Here's an example of such a product:
http://www.maxmind.com/

It's virtually required to target ads properly. Everbody does it.

Thanks

The specific ad that triggered my paranoia isn't a company that is closer to where i am - but i had been on their website recently and it's highly unlikely they would target basket ball blogs (look up lucky clover trading company) but now i'm even more paranoid.

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jkay reply to Kyle on Jun 9 at 18:38
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isn't that illegal; against the laws of privacy?
Ohh I forgot, this is the United States of America.
never mind.

Well there are privacy laws in the US and no it's not illegal
and if it really bothers you - you can tell your browser not to give you cookies.

COokies aren't rharmful - but it is kind of creepy how many cookies are being issued these days.

When ever i build web sites i like to use session ID instead of cookie

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 18:45
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yeah i'm just paranoid when it comes to that s*** but if it's off your work terminal, not sure how to explain that.

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 18:36
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well in your case it's merely coincidence.
maybe it means that the advertising team that surveys the target demographic were spot on. and that you're either more predictable and 'un-unique' than you think you are or those guys are just psychic.

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Steve V reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 19:30
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If you're serious I know some people who might be interested.

I'm serious that i have a social networking idea - but it's not even in the beta idea phase - it's just an idea - a kernel of an idea with some ideas around it that would need fleshing out - dedicated people - and some people connected to certain industries.

I've had it for 10 years - no ones done it - i still think it's a good idea - but i have a lot of good ideas but no friend to help make them so :)

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Steve V reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 22:53
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Haha well I know a couple people that could help you out so when you're ready just let me know, they're always interested in new ideas.

If Brian gives you my email address i can give you a rough idea of what i have in mind

Yeah, I've noticed that for a while. It's google, and I think the cookie they target on is the cookie dropped when you do a google search. It's their cookie, so I guess that's not a violation.

Scared me a little - the search being so specific

Of course - right now i Have papa johns above the posting window and there are no papap johns near her :)

Something like that.

My phone broke on Sunday when I fell of my bike- so I have been looking at new phones/plans...

No surprise that just about every banner add I see now is all about mobile companies.

Oh man, that's terrible! You ok?

Considering it was a bicycle and I was going about 2 miles an hour... I'll be fine :) Bruised ego mostly. Probably just karma paying me back for my snarky response I had to one of your posts last week.

But my phone did not survice, and Sprint wants me to pay $40 more a month by forcing me to update to one of their new plans. And that would hurt.

That's good to hear, we can't have TK going down to injury, he's too important around here! But that's so messed up, I've never heard of a phone breaking and the company refusing to honor the previous plan. :(

I'm holding on to a 10 year old plan, back when unlimited data was $8, and I'm pretty miserly. It does look like there are some decent options with month to month plans like Boost.

This was my original "smartphone", back before there were smartphones and Sprint did not know how to price the data:

http://cellphones.about.com/od/coveringthebasics/ig/Best-Smartphones-of-the-Decade/Kyocera-QCP-6035.htm

And this was my "Netbook" back then:
http://www.urban75.org/tech/toshiba-libretto-50-pc.html

Once a geek, always a geek- but it's getting harder to be a miserly geek. I guess that would be a good name for a tech blog- the Miserly Geek Report.

Wow, that's pretty impressive, wish you coulda kept it. If you could show me how to get a data plan like that for eight bucks, I'd read your blog religiously!

I still have that phone. It's chunky.

question: If you were offered Monta Ellis for nothing. Like straight up for a guy like Turner or Lou and then Nocioni's expiring etc. would you do that deal?

Turner's nothing ?

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deepsixersuede on Jun 9 at 18:47
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Tim Legler on M. Missanelli about 430 pm this afternoon said he talked to M. Jackson after he got the Gold. St. job and to paraphrase Legler: " my son is a sixers fan Mark, what are the chances of the Iggy/ Ellis trade going down."

Jackson replied; " they [sixers] would love that but not sure we would do it."

Bull shit

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deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 18:59
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Legler actually thought it was a good trade spouting the old , need a big scorer line. But he prefaced his remarks by saying he wasn't a big Iggy guy.

If Derek is listening, he said one of our possible new owners was big on drafting Casspi; was he pro or against Hawes?

And are these new owners called before any trade is going down?

Yeah, but legler, like most former player commentators is a douchebag who doesn't understand the totality of how the game really works

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 21:15
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One of the annoying things about your commenting persona is that you seem to think being a douchebag and not getting how the game works are somehow related. One can be dumb about basketball and still be a perfectly okay person. Michael Wilbon, for example, is one of those commentators whose whole understanding of basketball revolves around how Jordanesque a player is, but he seems like an alright guy. Skip Bayless, on the other hand, has the same outlook and is absolutely insufferable.

Good, I hope Mark Jackson keeps this trade from happening.

Let's keep in mind that Misanelli is Iguodala Hater #1

Always funny to read "comments."

This one was worth a chuckle:

"I'd like to see the 76ers trade Iggy and Thaddeus Young to the Magic for Jameer Nelson and Ryan Anderson. This would make sense for both teams. "

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deepsixersuede on Jun 9 at 19:20
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Brian, I agree with a lot of what you say about Jrue but feel top 10 p.g. is more realistic. What bothers me is how our organization values him.

With the #2 pick last year the opportunity was there to draft a young big [Favors?] or trade for a big in the league already to pair with him. And in spite of how I like Turner, he isn't the best compliment to a p.g. who you want the ball ins hands.

Now they seem to be trying to trade a big asset [Iggy] and if Jrue's postmate isn't gotten another opportunity goes by.

I remeber a rotoworld feature projecting Jrue to have 2.0 trey per game potential, which is laughable with his hesitant release when he's wide open even. Two steals without being a gambler is even a maybe. But he does have the necessary attributes to be a dominant PG. Top 5/10 is a vague achievment and honestly irrelevant. Size: check. Coolness: check (trey in wades grill - double check). Natural unlimted talent: check, minus elite vision. Coolness under pressure: big fat zero.

Top 5/10 is predicated on being popular. Dominance is taking or setting up a high percentage shot when everone knows the ball is going to be in your hands.

Is that going to be Jrue or Evan?

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Kyle reply to Cin on Jun 9 at 20:34
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they'll need a solid inside presence on their team to do so.

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Tray reply to Cin on Jun 9 at 21:11
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No... top 5-10 is predicated on actually being in the top 5-10. I mean, your top 5-6 point guards and my top 5-6 would probably be about the same, and it wouldn't be a function of popularity at all. Paul, Deron, Nash, Rose, Rondo and Westbrook are a legitimately elite group of players. Some are brilliant passers, others brilliant scorers who still don't pass very well, but they're all great at something. The next 4-5 - perhaps Miller, Billups, Parker, Curry, Wall (?) - aren't on that level. Maybe Wall or Curry will get to be. Then there's the Collison/Lawson/Jennings/Jrue group of point guards, who are currently a little above average to a little below average. Some of them will get very good; others (Collison?) will stay mediocre. Whether Jrue ends up in the top echelon, the 6-10 range, or the middle of the pack is very much a real, measurable thing, and something that matters a lot.

Just as important is whether Jrue can tap in on his potential. If he can play above average defense against both small and big PG's he'd be a key asset for any team given how the PG position is evolving. And he has the length, strtength and quickness to get there- but he has a lot to learn.

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Jun 9 at 21:54
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And if we get Ellis there will be no end of game situations and no pressuring opposing p.g.'s in Jru's future; I am depressed!!!!

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Cin reply to Tray on Jun 9 at 21:39
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The achievment is vague and irrelevant. It's great if you care about status and tiers but really that is also worthless. Billups and Parker have been very succesful but have rarely been considered Top 5 at their position. Nash has never won a ring but was always in the Top 5. This proves to me that rankings like this are worthless unless trying to gauge trade/conractual value.

Absolutely, what he can do is much more important than how he's perceived.

Hey Brian, it appears they are borrowing your Iguodala stuff at ClipperBlog. If you could write a quick Kaman Anti-Hit List, that would be gold!

They should be psyched.

first comment on this site. been visiting it regularly since november. really helped develop my interest in the sixers and understanding of the team. thanks brian and all the other contributors for the posts. i feel its reached the point where i have to voice concern over GoSixers comments...they are simply rude and do not promote discussion. i do not know as much about basketball as you all, would have loved to have contributed to discussions earlier had it been the right environment to do so. right now i cant enjoy reading the comments on this site, theyve really reached a new low. on the fence about whether ill continue to even come here

Dude, c'mon back! GoSixers is one of the best posters on this site. He challenges us to think about how we percieve the hoops action. It's a great place to be!

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Spencer Flaws reply to guest on Jun 9 at 22:32
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gosixers is a good poster but he has his mean streaks. I like it when he posts here. He makes you work to prove him wrong.

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Warren reply to Spencer Flaws on Jun 9 at 22:36
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Yeah if he weren't so hypocritical and defensive he'd be a lot more sufferable. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

Sigh, thanks for your inaccurate insight.

It's the internet - if one person on the internet bothers you so mcuh you have to leave a place you enjoy reading - i tend to think it's a flaw with the person who takes the internet too seriously - not the person they're leaving because of.

And keep in mind - there are lots of people i don't really 'like' that i am perfectly civil to because I feel they have earned my respect - just ask bebop - or derek even (who has banned me in multiple places multiple times and yet i don't really care that much)

If brian ever asks me to stop posting - I will - gladly - because it's his sandbox - and we play here at his pleasure

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Warren reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 23:29
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Oh. Sigh. Thanks for being infantile and never admitting when you're wrong. Pout.

I admit I'm wrong when I'm convinced I'm wrong.

Here's a hint, telling me I"m wrong without actual facts to back you up isn't very persuasive.

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Cin reply to guest on Jun 9 at 22:49
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And any skirt that shows more than above the ankle is whorey trash. Moving on.

GoSixers is a great poster. If you don't like what he says, voice your opinion and if it's legitimate other people will back you up. I hate everyone who posts here with a passion but I get by. Just kidding.

I hope you stick around and comment. Other than GoSixers once accusing me of racism, we have had civil conversations :)

GoSixers is a great poster, who also happens to be a great instigator. I've learned to like him (except when I'm "in charge" of a site and have to deal with flare ups), but I understand how he can get under peoples skin

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jkay reply to guest on Jun 10 at 1:30
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if you choose blogs according to politeness and etiquette, you may miss out.
that said, stay away from philly.com

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Spencer Flaws on Jun 9 at 23:43
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Mark Jackson: "Hand down, man down".
It kills me everytime he says that. I remember when rondo made a stepback three and he said it.

You know the rules.

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Turtle Bay on Jun 10 at 0:23
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I can't believe the Mavs are leading this series. They have one great player and a few good-very good players. Dwayne Wade and Lebron James are both better than Dirk and Chris Bosh would be the second best player on the Mavs. The heat also have their (few) role players healthy now. This goes against everything I thought constituted an NBA championship team, but I guess there is something to be said for a "real team," aside from the Pistons outlier.

Well, they haven't won yet I guess.

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jkay reply to Turtle Bay on Jun 10 at 1:19
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you're kidding right.
if not; let's put it this way - if the Heat won the next 2 games and the title in convincing fashion, the MVP of the Finals would still be Dirk Nowitzki.

Your model of a championship is not taking into account the sum of parts. The Mavs don't look imposing on paper but when you see them play together, you realize they have 10 times the mental toughness of a regular NBA team.

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Tray reply to jkay on Jun 10 at 2:03
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Honestly I think they have a ton of ordinary role players who have had amazing postseasons. No one saw this Dallas run coming and there's a reason for that. And Wade, not Dirk, has been the best player in this series.

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jkay reply to Tray on Jun 10 at 2:42
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It was very surprising then that they did not implode when he went to the locker room in the first half.

Newsflash: Dallas game-plans to stop Lebron first, before Wade. It's what 90% of coaches would do.
I wont stiff Wade for what he has done this series but don't be allured by his all around game and scoring (aided by Terry and Kidd's suffocating D) and forget about an unstoppable, albeit somewhat one dimensional player that has been his team's offense and said offense is run through him, from start to end.

Just got back from watching the game.. Being a Sixers fan is not the best right now but being an NBA fan is. Best playoffs in a while in my book.

This series has been great. Just one more, Dallas.

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Rich reply to T McL on Jun 10 at 1:21
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Great game. I don't hate Miami like most, but this Dallas team has been excellent. An easy team to get behind.

Check your e-mail. And I definitely hate Miami.


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