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Why Is Holding Onto Iguodala A Bad Thing?

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deepsixersuede on Jun 10 at 7:14
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Brian, it sounds like the Sam situation over again; we have to move Iggy out of town, yet 2 players couldn't be more different. Iggy works his tail off in the offseason, plays hard and seems to be a good teammate.

Maybe after he is moved some revelation comes out. Have the new owners given orders to move salary and Elton will go with an amnesty clause?

Could this be Snider's last laugh? Trade the best player for pennies on the dollar?

Lastly, an Iggy trade I would consider if clearing salary is important to our new owners; Iggy to Denver, Gallanari,Mozgov and 7 mill. in cap room to Phila. and Felton to Sacramento.

It fills 2 needs for us, keeps Turner at s.g., gives Sacramento a veteran p.g. but would Denver do it?

I like that deal but i don't see how the Nuggets would agree to this...

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HendrikDB reply to Xsago on Jun 10 at 9:05
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I'd do that trade with my eyes closed. Gallinari has SO much potential and I love to see him play.

Suede,

What would Sacramento give in that deal?

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deepsixersuede reply to Rich on Jun 10 at 18:43
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Rich, basically 7 mill. in cap space and if denver insists maybe the sixers and kings throw in their 2nd rounders.

Why is no one calling these rumors for what they are: Thorn and company's attempt to drum up interest league-wide in Iguodala? They throw 3 crappy trades and a deadline out there and hope some team sees that and pounces. If not, then you move on. It's pretty straightforward stuff.

I think it's the other way round. The interested teams are trying to lower his trade value by giving away fake bad offers in the media.

Because all the rumor mongering out there says the sixers have no interest in any of these deals, it's all unsubstantiated BS with crappy trades.

If the sixers wanted to drum up interest why not indicate names that don't, you know, SUCK

I think it is a bad thing if we hold on to him for all the reasons mentioned, but it would be a worse thing to trade him for nothing, such as Monta or Kaman straight up.

The knee concerns me. Not because i am sure that is something that will affect him for the rest of his career, but if it happens to, he is essentially worthless. He is not the type of player that can significantly contribute if he losses his lateral quickness or leaping ability. His athleticism is his value, if it's gone, he's done.

He has shown that he doesn't want to be here. Not blatantly, but when there is smoke, there is almost always fire. I don't blame him for that, I wouldn't want to be him playing in this city either.

His contract is going to keep climbing, and the cap is almost certain to drop, limiting the teams financial flexibility even further.

For the same reason I sure as shit don't want Monta, I'd like to see him be moved. The team has essentially 4 players that do best when they have the ball. This team needs to have more complimentary players and less ball handlers. Evan and Jrue should be using as many possessions as possible. Iguodala and Lou take away from both.

I know what Iguodala's value is and I don't think any of the rumored trades are anywhere near fair. I also know what this team is with Iguodala as the best player, and it isn't good enough that I couldn't bare the team to trade him, even if the trade is a bit lopsided.

How about Jrue, Igoudala, & #16 for LeBron? Haha.

In all seriousness, I think Gallinari would be my top target. The only way I'd consider the Ellis move is if we were using him to flip for Minny's #2 pick and some assets or the Cavs #4 and some other assets (less inclined to do this one) or in another deal altogether. I'm not an Ellis fan at all. The Kaman deal is doable if you get Aminu and their pick from Minny in 2012, but still not ideal.

I've been warming up to Dorell Wright as well of late.

How about this spin off of the Ellis deal?

Ellis + Wright + #11 (hopefully Biyombo or Valanciunas) for Iguodala + Lou Williams.

Would you do it without the pick?

Next year we can have a backcourt of Jrue/Ellis/Wright with Turner coming of the bench as a 6th man. And 2 years from now we can settle on a lineup of Jrue/Turner/Wright with Ellis coming of the bench in Lou's current role (possibly playing a little bit more minutes).

As for Ellis i'm obviously not a fan of his but i do believe he is overly bashed about his inefficiency. TS% is a nice stat but it means nothing taken out of context. TS% has to be viewed along with usage rate IMO. High TS% for players that have high usage rates and are the focal point of the offense are those who are truly great scorers. Ellis clearly is not that. But comparing his shooting efficiency to players who shoot far less, shoot only when they are open and are not being game planned the way teams game plan for Ellis does not provide any relevant conclusion. This is why stats in the NBA are still not good enough: they are taken out of context way too much.

Anyway look at season 2007/2008 Ellis was essentially the same player back than (one could even say that he is even better now, he is a better shooter than he used to be). The only significant difference is how he is utilized. Back then the Warriors had a balanced attack with B. Davis and SJax. Ellis had a usage rate of 21.7. For comparisons sake Jrue had a usage rate of 20.8 last year. If you can have Jrue, Ellis and Turner all at around 20-22 USG% you are going to have a very efficient offensive backcourt.

Of course, defense is another thing and that is why i don't like an Iguodala for Ellis straight up swap because the drop off in defense is too much and is not offset with Ellis's better offense. Anyway the Ellis deal is a better starting point for a good deal than the Hedo or the Kaman deals that are just insulting.

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Rich reply to Xsago on Jun 10 at 14:27
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Good points about true shooting percentage, and I only put a throwaway sentence in there on that. A higher usage rate definitely means that the TS % would be lower. The last two years, when Ellis was coming off injury, he was way lower. Then you could really make a point about Iguodala being better. I meant it more to say that he doesn't score that much better.

I don't see how Monta Ellis has a usage rate under 25 or 26 percent either.

Is usage rate adjusted/normalized against team pace?

Maybe it's the warriors pace that makes his usage rate lower?

This Ellis deal better just go away and never return. If Iguodala gets moved for a high draft choice, I'd still be disappointed but I guess I could understand it. How the Sixers could come out of an Iguodala trade without a decent frontcourt player(not Kaman) or at least get the right to draft one of the top guys is insanity to me, just insanity.

Looks like we're looking at taking a bad deal because I seriously doubt that the Clippers include Aminu and a pick. The Clippers seem to have a plan B in place in Pistons small forward Tayshaun Prince. Pistons GM Joe Dumars would do back flips to orchestrate a sign and trade of Prince for Kaman. There is a premium on centers in this leage, and while Prince isn't Iggy, he could be a nice stop gap for the Clippers while either Aminu or their Minny 2012 pick bring them a long term small forward.

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eddies' heady's on Jun 10 at 10:35
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My reasoning for why holding on to him being a bad thing is this:

-You've got to take a step back in order to go forward in this league. Trading him would arguably make you worse in the short term but could possibly spring you forward in the immediate long term.
-He makes way too much money for what he brings (and no I don't give a crap about who else makes what and what their numbers are compared to him) and that money is only going UP not down. You've got to free up at least a portion of that money to give you whatever wiggle room under this upcoming new cap.
-Him being the best player on this team only leads you to the peak of mediocrity - a .500 season. We've already had that defensive-presence big that could defend and rebound and a heck of a point guard and floor general was on those teams too. Still only topped out at .500.
-His ego is inflated to the point where he truly thinks he's a bonafide star. His comments in the past can lead one to believe such. Thinking you're something that you're really not can be a huge mental hurdle, but more importantly, an on-court 'team' roadblock.
-The guy put the proverbial nail in the coffin when he thumbed his nose at his bosses and skipped out on his exit meetings and even going out of the country before checking back in. (I believe you left out the part about where I think Tom Moore(?) reported that Thorn or someone said they still hadn't heard from the guy after the mysterious "team doctor's appointment") Andre basically stuck up his middle finger at the organization and the kicker to me - a coach who utilized him to a T and did nothing but have his back the whole year.
-The team has been poorly constructed for too long with players that don't complement each other on court. He's been here the longest and hasn't lead us on any sort of upward path and, to boot, makes nearly the most money. But most importantly, he's pretty much the only chip we have that is of any perceived value around the league. He's the best candidate to bring back something, whether equal or not, to jumpstart the reconstruction of the roster.

Basically, you aren't going anywhere with him and you sure as hell aren't going anywhere without him, at least in the short term, so move that hefty contract while you can and bring in someone new and give the team some new elements.

Players are judged pretty harshly around here by what they did in so-and-so season with so-and-so team that ran so-and-so system. I'm not sure that matters all that much when you are given a new life and new role along with new and different teammates, but particularly a new coach and system. Something has to change or give. Will it be good or bad? Who knows until it actually takes place and happens. Change is often good.

Read the article again. Thorn said it was a misunderstanding, no big deal. That's paraphrasing, but I don't want to read into Iguodala's motives too much. We all have no idea what he's thinking.

The idea that change is usually good is exactly what I am arguing against. Monta Ellis or Chris Kaman accomplishes bad change, and makes the team worse now and in the future.

The taking a step back thing is fine, but hopefully if you did that, the team would be blown up and get younger. That wouldn't happen in any of the deals that have been mentioned. Hopefully when the team would be bad, the young guys would play and have a lot of responsibility like OKC in the early years. That wouldn't happen with Monta.

Again, I am fine with moving Iguodala, but let's get something better for him than a guy his age who doesn't play defense and jacks up shots. Let's get younger players or draft picks that help with the defense and rebounding.

Rich

Excellent article. I know a lot of people don't want ot read long articles (and most of the articles I did write this season were MUCH longer than what I posted - hell one was broken up into two parts) but sometims length is required, this is probably the best 'non brian' article written all season.

Thanks for sharing

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 13:44
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Thanks man, appreciate it.

No problem.

Good is good, and should be recognized as such, whether one agrees with the point is a different issue, but you clearly and deeply explained and examined all the points, it's a great article regardless of whether or not I agree with it (which is what should matter, in my mind)

Saying Iguodala's "only weakness is his shooting" is like saying Obama's only weakness is his profligate spending when the country's 14-plus trillion in debt (with number rising daily). The sport, in name and essence, is BASKET-ball, any way you slice it. Those with the greatest skill at MAKING BASKETS when the gym expects baskets are the premier players. The deferring ones of lesser basket-making ability, while bearing some importance in the scheme, ideally, find their subordinate place.

Iguodala's time is up in Philly. He punched his ticket out with his sly sidestep of an exit interview. Ego amok, passive-aggressively. Sixers need to generate QUALITATIVE Easing I by moving him for an actual shooter or an interior force, the sooner the better so they can tend to other strengthening matters. Enough of the Mating Game, Philadelphia version (hand cupped over mouth, tee hee).

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jkay reply to Ty Game on Jun 10 at 12:45
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you are applying the same narrow mindedness that you do with your politics to basketball too.

And not just narrow mindedness - blaming the current president for the flaws of the past is always kind of silly to me - when you inherit a disaster why is the disaster then your fault?

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Rich reply to Ty Game on Jun 10 at 13:47
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Iguodala and unnecessary political bashing aside you wrote this,

"Sixers need to generate QUALITATIVE Easing I by moving him for an actual shooter or an interior force, the sooner the better so they can tend to other strengthening matters."

QUALITATIVELY, Andre Iguodala has been just as good or better than Monte Ellis scoring in his career. An actual shooter or interior force fine, but Ellis doesn't fit these categories.

Qualitatively (as well) Andre Iguodals is a better player than Ellis as well. Ellis may be a better scorer but he's not a better passer, rebounder, or defender.

I don't know how anyone can say that the sixers would be better overall swapping Iguodala for Ellis. Iguodala beats Ellis in every category but one.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 13:54
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It's just crazy to think that Fagan and other people are on board with this. The guy has never played a lick of defense in his life, and you are hinging your franchise that he will.

"We need a scorer" though. I totally disagree with that statement. Most of the guys on our team's best skill is scoring. Think about it:

Jrue- I'd say he's an all around guy, but he's a good scorer.
Meeks- Shooting (That's scoring though)
Turner- No, Rebounding
Lou- Scoring
Thad- Scoring
EB- Scoring, even though he got back to a better rebounding number
Peyton- Passing

This team does not need a scorer. They also do not need a guy who turns the whole defensive framework on its head.

I've been beating the 'our entire bench can only score' drum for a while now :) We don't need more scorers. I still think Lou is an adequate ellis at half (or more?) the price. I don't like Lou but he's cheaper than Ellis at least :)

Remember, Kate needs readers, she needs hits on her web posting, she needs people to buy the paper, she has to keep her job in a dying industry (evolving maybe, sorry Tom) and maybe she writes what she knows people will like.

Or maybe when she was bad mouthing the team when she started she heard from people that if she didn't 'tow the line' she'd lose access. A beat writer without acceess to the team isn't much of a beat writer.

I dislike Kate's opinion immensely - totally - but can see why she would write it even if she didn't agree with it.

Eh, I can see where the Ellis support is coming from. I don't agree with it, but it's not completely from left field either. On the surface, adding guy who scores 24 pts/g on reasonable percentages while moving ET to SF could give the tea a whole new dynamic. In my case I just don't see Jrue, ellis, Turner working well, but it's my opinion.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Jun 10 at 14:10
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It would give the team a new dynamic. Not a good one though.

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eddies' heady's on Jun 10 at 10:44
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And I don't understand why some are worried what will happen to Player X or Player Y if Player Z is brought here.

As an example, if Evan Turner could average 25 pts a game and 6 assists from the 2 guard spot with slightly lower usage and slightly better efficiency, wouldn't you take it?

If Monta Ellis is brought here and can do that (I expect he would/could because Doug is not going to run a system where he lets one guy just jack up shots at an alarming rate plus we don't run a helter skelter system), why not take that (meaning it's proven he can produce at a pretty high level in this league)? And worry about what to do with Evan and what he may or may not become later on?

I'd rather have a guy that's proven he can produce than not wanting that guy just because there's a player that MAY become that or not even come close to becoming that, but we missed out on him because management had the same hopeful mindset.

I'd much rather have Turner average 16 points a game much more efficiently. I believe he can do that.

On worrying about what other players do, it's not just Turner I'm worried about. I talked about what would happen to Jrue at great length.

You do realize that Golden State plays a ridiculous system too? It's tough to project anything Ellis would do here. I have my doubts, and it's certainly not proven what he would do here.

If anything Eddies, the hope that you constantly warn against would be exactly what the team would be doing with Monta Ellis.

"I hope he can defend well"
"I hope the rest of the team doesn't crumble on that end of the floor with him in there."
"I hope he never has to play with Lou"
"I hope he can score efficiently in the first normal system in the NBA."

In business, or any transaction, you can not go into it with the idea that you HAVE to make a deal. You lose a negotiating edge, what you're selling (or buying) has its value change not because the item has changed but your motivation has. Having to do something means desperation, you must do it, and the other side can sniff the desperation. If the sixers go out in a way indicating that they 'have' to trade Igoudala, the offers won't be good as if they were 'willing to listen but content to keep him', that's just common sense. If someones desperate to get rid of something, you don't make your best offer, you start as low as possible and slowly build up until they cave.

Rich said a whole lot, but Iguodala is still the best player on the sixers, he can score rebound defend and create baskets for others better (when taken as a whole) than most players in the league. He doesn't score enough points for certain people or he isn't a closer (and yet again, neither is Kobe, and the whole closer idea is god damn asinine so people using at as an argument need to come up with something better). He's currently the best all around basketball player the sixers have, and much like Pat Burrell, at least publicly (contrary to people who think they can read tea leaves) he's never said anything about the HORRIBLE treatment he's received as a player in Phildlephia because most fans can't appreciate what he does, they just focus on what he can't, they blame him for incompleteness.

Andre Iguodala in Philadelphia takes as much proportional grief as Lebon James does league wide, and he has a whole lot less talent to work with.

Andre Iguodala has NEVER been a number one scoring option in any level (ask Derek - he has the numbers) - it's ridicluous that anyone ever thought he would become that - it's not his game. He has an amazing overall basketball game and fans want to dump him for monta ellis who is a one dimensional movement killing punk who can't play defense, or rebound, or pass, like Iguodala. Sure he can shoot a lot - but so can Lou williams - who is a lot cheaper. Or let's trade him for Chris Kaman staright up - oh boy - an expiring contract - that's all Kaman is.

The rush to trade Iguodala before the CBA expires puts the sixers in a horrible position, they aren't going to get good offers if they are the desperate seller.

Fans need to comprehend that making a move just to make a move isn't a good idea, making a bad trade just to 'move' Iguodala is a bad idea. If the trade offer does not improve the sixers long term (the assets back don't have to be players but they have to help the sixers improve long term) then trading him is a stupid idea motivated mostly by placating an uneducated fan base.

When a franchise makes a move based on placating fans it almost always blows up in their face because there's a reason fans are fans and not GM's.

Wish there was something else to talk about though, cause this horse has been dead for months.

Do I think the sixers should trade Iguodala? Yeah, I do , for a variety of reasons including Iguodalas best interest. Do I think it would be BAD if they didn't trade him? No I don't, not based on the bullshit offers being leaked to the public. Those deals are asinine and horrible and don't improve the sixers in the short or long term, but man wouldn't some fans be happy when he's gone.

It's Abreu all over again, maybe the sixers can trade Iguodala for a bag of Doritos

I just read Brian's column over at SB Nation, and a thought popped in my head: maybe the (potential) new ownership and Levien want to save some money - whether it's over the course of a contract like Ellis's or with an expiring like Kaman - but don't want "their" first move to look like a cost-cutting move. So they want Thorn to get them the best deal possible before signing on the bottom line. Then they can hide behind the fact that this purchase is a long-term deal so they weren't concerned about the short-term impact of the move and they "let" Thorn pull the trigger.

It's a legitimate thought, but from information I've read and heard this Levien fella wants to build a winning franchise, and the two investors are investing their OWN money, not their company money.

When I think of the type of business people that are putting up the cash, I think Gordon Gekko. In his business he was a son of a bitch, but a guy like that, he loves his toys, he wants the shiniest best toys so all his very rich friends can suck it.

I have always seen sports franchises as 'shiny toys' for rich folk, if you buy a shiny toy, yo uwant it to be the best shiny toy. That's what I hope these guys are. I hope their 'young billionaire bucks' like a Marc Cuban, not a 'oh look i can 'invest in the dodgers' like when FOX owened them.

We won't know for sure, but your idea is plausible, but if it was - why wouldn't they have pulled the trigger on the Iguodala Kaman deal. Kaman expires next year, buy him out even and you save a bit next season as well.

Or what about the rumored cavs deal which probably is a weak ass pick for absorbing the entirety of Iguodalas contract.

There are rumored purely 'cost saving' deals out there that reportedly are available if the sixers say yes.

The problem is, also (sorry I ramble I know) is that these guys aren't the new owners yet, they're just interested, and there were other bidders who might come back into the game. When something goes public, more people get involved, interested parties go 'wait, i could buy that', and things get complicated.

There's no guarantee this group will buy the sixers until the contract is done, there's no guarantee anyone will buy the sixers. Unless ALL interested parties agree that Iguodala must go to save money - moving him for 'potential' new owners is a bad move because, in business, stuff can fall apart quick, and hard.

Any folks listening to WIP or 950 - is it worth checking in - or is most of the talk about baseball and football still?

I expect Madson last night raised the hackles of all the 'he can't close folk'

IN the aritcle that Brian Posted in the reading list about how the monta thing was 50:50 and it bummed him out, this paragraph exists


The Sixers have fielded several calls about Iguodala, but executives who’ve spoken with them detect reluctance in the Philadelphia front office to trade Iguodala in a salary dump. The Sixers want a player of value in return, sources said.

Also, the article indicates that the draft is more important to the warriors right now than moving Ellis

If we're going to believe part of the article, should believe it all (I don't believe the thing is 50:50 except in the fact that one of the two teams involved would make the deal in a heart beat so it's 'half' done)

Ric Bucher has an espn chat at 1 PM Eastern Time today if you feel like some laughs.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/38823/nba-with-ric-bucher

Because he consumes a large piece of the organization's constricted salary pie.

Because he can't handle the emergence of Jrue Holiday as team's centerpiece/media darling.

Because his words and interview inaction show him to be half-hearted regarding a return.

Because the team is 6-16 in 4 losing playoff showings in his 7 seasons.

Because after witnessing 575 games, the "uneducated" city and organization know.

Because he consumes a large piece of the organization's constricted salary pie.

Then why isn't it 'bad' to hold onto Elton Brand? Who takes up more.

Because he can't handle the emergence of Jrue Holiday as team's centerpiece/media darling.

Bull shit speculation, and hatred, and honestly, I think he'd be infavor of it because he's never gotten any kind of SUPPORT from the media or fans, i don't think he wants to talk to the media in Philadlephia, and neither would I if i was him.

Because the team is 6-16 in 4 losing playoff showings in his 7 seasons.
That's right, see, it's all his fault too, they definitely should have won at least half those playoff series right? They were always evenly matched in all those series.

Because after witnessing 575 games, the "uneducated" city and organization know.

I've been a Phildelphia Sports fan almost 40 years, and for much of it I was one of the uneducated nimrods who bought into the tired old cliches. The majority of the phildelphia sports fans don't know shit about what it really takes. They love reggie evans, they love aaron rowand, they hate people who make the game look easy because of natural born ability, they hate people who they think 'don't try hard' (yet you can't really tell from watching folks), they buy into many of the most ignorant and obnoxious (and often racially based) hatreds from the most hate filled psports radio talk show hosts in the nation.

This is a fucking city whose greatest sports hero IS FICTIONAL


I gotta apologize for all the cursing the past few weeks, I don't like it when people do it (I know Brian has no problem with it) but to me it's just poor writing and poor expression of opinion. I've been having a mini nervous breakdown for about 2 weeks - but it's over now.

KNow most of you don't care, just feel that the cursin on a blog is uncalled for, so I wapologize for it.

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Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 17:13
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Good comments. I don't live in Philadelphia and don't know the city well, but from a distance I've always thought it was a really good basketball town. If the local fans really dislike Andre that much, it's crazy. This is exactly the kind of player you want. So what if he's not a "number 1"? That's not who he is so don't punish him for it. Lou Williams isn't a number 1 option either. Maybe Turner will become one, maybe there will be a free agent signing in 2 years, who knows? You don't get rid of a player for pennies on the dollar because he's not a superstar.

I don't believe for a second that Iguodala is arrogant or disliked by his teammates. He gets frustrated and angry like anybody else, but he never gives less than full effort. This Monta Ellis trade talk has to be coming entirely from Oakland - come on, nobody can possibly think that's a good move for the Sixers. What's he ever proven except that he can average in the mid-20s for a team with a 1950s run-and-gun offense (not that I'm against that style)?

I also don't believe he wants out. That comment after the last playoff game? Eh. You can't expect happy talk from a player after he's just been eliminated from the playoffs. Think about it - the guy's injured, worn out from playing for a year straight, is heading home for the summer, and somebody asks him if he wants to be on the team next year. So he says, in effect, "I just want to play." It's out of his control, why should he get into a discussion about it? I realize he could have simply said "yes", but I think he was trying to say, "That's a question for another day."

And just in case anybody missed it: he didn't "blow off" the exit interview. Can we put that one to rest now? (not coming at you GoSixers) I'm really sick of the mind-reading and wishful thinking by people who don't know what it takes to build a good professional basketball team. Iguodala is not the problem.

God, I hope we keep him.

Here's the link to my latest on Philly SB Nation (or is it SB Nation Philly?) link

Oh, and Kate Fagan is chatting now here.

She just said Golden State is warming up to the Iguodala/Monta deal, which gives me douche chills for a number of reasons.

I still think the one that needs 'warming up' to the thing is the sixers, and Kate's comment still bothers me because I think she's slowly moved from 'journalist with integrity' to 'mouthpiece of the organization' so that what she writes is the organization getting the message out through an 'unconnected source'

Sigh.

Someone, anyone, find the buyers, get them on the record saying they would hate a trade of Iguodala for Ellis

Now she's saying it isn't fair to call Ellis a bad defender, because of the system he played in. Apparently being an undersized two with a miniature wingspan AND performing horribly on the defensive end for six seasons isn't enough data to make a call on that one.

I always find that such a garbage excuse by the way 'it's not his fault - it's the system' - i don't care what your offensive system is there are defensive fundamentals you can display - it's not like coach says 'just let em score'

It's the kind of rationalization you expect from an organization trying to justify a crappy trade.

Sigh

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Court_visioN on Jun 10 at 12:21
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of course the only useless question i post on her chat (the one with the showyaluv stuff) is the one she chooses to answer. her denial on monta-iguodala being a retarded swap (and the fan support she is getting) sickens me to no end.

I don't know why I do it to myself anymore.

Because you're a fan, a fanatic, you won't ever quit the sixers...or the eagles...or the yankees as it becomes clear once again they ain't winning a world series no matter how much they spend (i keed i keed - 7 runs, one inning, not so much)

Trust me, I've tried, I TRIED to quit the sixers, i didn't get league pass, i said i'm gonna root for the clippers (it's clippers and lakers local here) - and it didn't work - you can't quit the sixers - cause if you could you weren't really a fan(atic) to being with - and you are.


Sorry

I've told myself to start watching some more Bulls games if a Hedo trade happens. If they trade for Elis I'll root on and hope I'm proved wrong. I dislike Ellis less than I did Big Dog...

I can't ever really give up but the best I seem to be able to do is 'not buy' the league pass thing but that's more of a financial decision.

This year I didn't get the MLB package and we are a phillies AND red sox family - but it's a financial decision.

On the other hand - if my 'dream' job ever comes through - I would have to stop being a fan because it would interfere with the work I want to do

Rich, great stuff. Thanks for this.

I did not even realize it was Rich. You guys both write with a similar voice and POV- which is not a criticism.

Good work as usual, but I miss the video breakdowns :)

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Rich reply to tk76 on Jun 10 at 13:38
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Sadly TK, I'm home for the Summer. The games are blacked out, even on archives with the local market which is a shame because League Pass Broadband gives you the whole season still.

I've been watching some Warriors games recently though.

Rich

I don't know how to do it (but Derek might be able to help you) but you can 'mask/spoof' your IP address so league pass doesn't know where you are at.

Additionally - I would be willing to 'lend you' my mysynergysports.com login if you can't afford to get one.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 13:56
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Both of those would be great. I'm not sure how much I'll write so I'll ask if I have something in mind.

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Court_visioN on Jun 10 at 12:33
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Yay, Kate on the Ellis-has-more-PPG-therefore-it's-a-fair-deal bandwagon

she answered one of my 2 questions, and completely dodged it.

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Court_visioN reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 10 at 13:24
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i saw that and i commented "way to dodge the question kate" but obviously that wasn't posted either, haha

Brian

New article at SB Nation is quite good as always, you and derek are the best sixers writers out there at sbnation.

Thanks, I wasn't sure how that one was going to turn out. I wrote like 4500 words for realgm earlier in the night and was running on fumes.

Thanks for that. People really appreciate your kind and not so kind words.

Are you at least getting some sort of compensation for writing for all these folks i hope?

TK - he's writing for real gm now too? Falling down on the mod job are we :)

If ONly I wasn't banned everywhere :)

Brian, Tom, Derek and Jordan are judging the "Be the GM" league at realgm. Brian did not pull any punches.

I should have had you kick in as a "secret judge." In fact if you'd be willing it would be great to hear your opinion- I can send you the teams.

I'd be more than happy to give my input - but i can't really read real gm without using proxify.com - i understand the banning (though you keep letting ricky back in :) - but if you want some more imput - more than happy.

I'm worrking on a 'secret' project that if i ever find free time to learn wordpress better - i'll hope to launch before the beginning of next season :)

I think I lost your email, and although Brian accidentally granted me the power to edit your posts and/or ban you, I don't have a way to email you...

I'll send Brian an email and he can forward it to you. If you put up results I'll post them.

Brian has my email, so does derek :)

I tried to make my own message-board where you would not be banned (phillyarena), but I failed in my impossible quest.

I haven't even had time to look at that thing yet. Every time I get the gumption to start, I realize how much time it's going to take.

So my questions regarding a deadline is at least 'not soon' :)

I've got 2 clients on my ass in addition to my full time job (hell i had to pass on a 2500 dollar job the other day cause i don't have the time to do it)

oh. by "that thing", I meant the realgm contest thingy.

OH yeah, I know...Brian did actually send it to me and I emailed TK to see if there was an immediate deadline :)

Ah, gotcha.

Yeah, I'm swamped. If I get more than 30 hours of combined sleep between now and the draft I'll be surprised.

I'm trying hard to feel bad for you, but as my girlfriend knows, if i ever had a job i loved, she'd hardly ever see me - i over work for jobs i don't like - if i had my dream job i'd have a bed at work so i didn't have to go home to sleep because i'd be dedicated to the work.

:)

Yeah, I'd do that one first and forget the realgm thing :)

The 2500 gig was passed on a couple days ago - just don't have the time - the realgm thing is FUN for me (yes i'm a giant dork - i've been a giant dork for 30+ years, i was a geek LONG before it was cool and am proud of it - so?)

I wish I had as much faith in the Sixers brain-trust as I do in the Sixers blogospere.

from best to worst:

1. Sixers bloggers
2. Sixers F.O.
3. Philly.com journalists
4. Philly.com comments
5. members of apocalyptic cults

With numbers 4 and 5 being close enough to be nearly interchangeable.

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johnrosz on Jun 10 at 13:40
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Went on DX to check out Monta's wingspan. Anyway,was Monta really stoned at the combine? His measurements are worse across the board than everyone's favorite average athlete Evan Turner.

I'm guessing he just had a bad day? I've watched him enough to know he's a wayyyy better athlete than ET, seems like a damn good one foot leaper from what I've seen.

Brian, I sent you an email to forward to GoSixers.

Got it, and passed it on.

Ric Bucher / Kate Fagan - same person?

Ric Bucher
Monta would be an improvement for the Magic. I believe he's vastly underrated. He has the knock of not being a defender because the Warriors never emphasized it. But he has the requisite ability and I've seen him take the challenge and do a great job on several occasions.

I never get the whole "he can defend if he actually tried" argument. Changing uni's/coaches will not make a disinterested defender all of the sudden give effort. It could hide his weaknesses, but he won't suddenly discover a passion for defense.

I totally agree with you (and in the kate comment said so earlier in the post) - it's an excuse - and a BS one to me - defense is about effort first and foremost - not the system any team plays

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jkay reply to tk76 on Jun 10 at 14:26
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well Ray Allen and PP in Boston before and after the trade would disprove that argument.
But now that I see what Thibs did in Chicago, I know now that it was his brilliant defensive philosophies that made that sharp turnaround.

More Bucher


By the way, I haven't heard Orlando as a destination. I've heard Iguodala to Orlando, but I don't see how the Magic put together a package that meets Philly's desires.

Bucher when asked about the relative talents of Gay/Granger/Iguodala (look who is ignored)

I'm not sure exactly what that means, but as far as pure talent, Gay is ahead of Iguodala or Granger. Iguodala is a better overall presence on your team than the other two, at least from what I've been told. Haven't covered them all up close, so I'm going on what I hear, rather than what I know firsthand. As with any situation, what the rest of your team looks like would determine which of them would be the best fit. It's not a matter of just getting the most talented guy. Unless you're playing fantasy basketball.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 14:08
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At least he's admitting it now. I think that's a fair assessment: Gay is more talented, and Dre is a bigger presence.

And Granger is an afterthought :)

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 14:29
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but Granger would look better than both next to Jrue.
dare I say, even better if you manage to keep Iguodala too.

Could you run a jrue/iguodal/granger back three?

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 14:37
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defensively it probably wouldn't work.
but on offense, nothing works better with Jrue and/or Iguodala than a spot up shooter with great size. Dala can slide to the 2.

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Rich reply to jkay on Jun 10 at 14:39
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I think it would be ideal defensively as well. Two plus defenders and a guy that covers shooters, right? I don't know about Granger but if he isn't great on that end, he has size.

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jkay reply to Rich on Jun 10 at 14:42
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well the twos would be too quick for a big guy like him to guard. and then he would only be able to guard the threes, which is trouble.

I think Granger is sold a bit short. He could really be a great scoring weapon if his team had a top level star as a teammate.

If I was starting a team with a non-jumpshooting star, Granger might get the nod as a preferred teammate over Gay or Iguodala

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Rich reply to tk76 on Jun 10 at 14:36
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Yeah I think Granger is a solid player, and if I had a non shooting star, I'd probably pick him of the three.

The other three guys better defend though.

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 14:45
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the guys only job is to cover the NBA, and he can't find the time to formulate his own opinion on some of the top flight players in the league?

There are 30 team cover in the NBA - ESPN has 3 guys (or more) who cover the heat extensively - they have 3 Mavs chats a week - I wouldn't give Bucher grief for not knowing in depth every player on every team especially 2 eastern playoff bottom feeders and one team that suddenly surprised in the west when said player went down.

The bigger your coverage area the more you won't be able to cover it all - it's just too difficult. If the sixers were a top team in the league - or if lebron wade and bosh all came to philadephia because they wanted to play with andre - trust me - ESPN would have tons of coverage.

i don't like bucher at all but I'm not giving him grief for not knowing the ins and outs of every player - he's not an analyst - he covers the game as a whole - but they have other 'in depth' evaluators who would be better to answer the gay/granger/iguodala question

I actually give a guy credit for admitted when he can't give a definitive opinion on the spot. A lot of the talking heads will spout out something just for its entertainment value. Which is great when its Chuck, but no so great if a guy is supposed to be their for his knowledge.

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 14:53
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I suppose, but he makes a living centered around the NBA. We all do other things to earn a living yet we can formulate a reasonable opinion on each of the players mentioned, ya know?

I don't know, I guess you're right. I respect him for admitting that he's deferring to others that have a better understanding of the situation

Many of our formulated opinions, aside from the sixers players, though are based on limited or no viewing and just looking at highlights or stats.

Your view of Danny Granger isn't as well formed or informed as the guy who blogs the pacers for a living (and neither is mine) we don't have the kind of time to watch every game - bucher covers the nba and can't watch every game.

We can have opinions of other players on other teams, but in gernal, they're going to be malformed opinions based on not enough data compared to fans of those teams.

I don't say that to be insulting but it's just a fact - our opinions on non sixer players are not as informed as guys who blog or pay attentions to those teams (and have common sense)

At the same time - bucher is covering ALL 30 nba teams, the nba as a whole, and can only focus on so much - he covers the nba top to bottom - soups to nuts - commissioners office to draft stuff - his beat is HUGE

Again, I'm not saying I think his opinion is better - but like TK said - at least he admitted a lack of knowledge

I made the fatal mistake of watching a YouTube video of Ellis highlights from '10-'11 and admittedly started getting a little excited about his game. One clip got me very excited - him driving past Wade for a layup. Then I looked at the score in the lower right of the screen, Miami 94, Golden St 70. LOL. We're screwed.

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johnrosz reply to Marty on Jun 10 at 14:55
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Yeah, I try to stay away from the youtube mixes. I could show you a Spencer Hawes mixtape that would make you think he's one of the better centers in the NBA

I have ONE concern (as it just occurred to me) in holding on to Andre Iguodala, and it's not a personality conflict or a wanting to be here thing and it's not Andre Iguodala's fault - it's Doug Collins fault.

For the long term success of this franchise, Jrue Holiday needs to evolve as a point guard, a point guard who initiates the offense and can score as well, not an off the ball point guard.

While moving Iguodala to a bigger 'initiator' role last year WAS good for the sixers, I still believe it was bad for the long term development of Jrue Holiday. It delayed/stunted his maturity to his full potential.

This is not an Iguodala problem though, I believe he will play in any role asked of him and play in it well, this is a Doug Collins/Comcast, losing in the first round is more ipmortant than developing Jrue Holiday problem (as I see it)

If Collins intends to continue stunting Holiday's growth while Iguodala is still on the roster, then I'd be more motivated to trade him - but for folks who don't 'need' the ball (yeah you monta ellis) because at this point - this team will only ever go as far as Jrue Holiday can carry them due to the 'career arcs' of Iguodala versus Holiday and the rest of the roster

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 14:46
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you saw a preview in the playoffs right?
I'm sure DC is not blind. He will ease up on the leash a lot more. But not enough to satisfy us anyway.
But considering how Deron Williams turned out in Utah, it may not be a bad thing. He may come out a much more sound, less flashy player than we expect.

...wait, why did that sound like a bad thing?

I didn't watch a single minute of sixers playoffs

"The idea of this team "needing a scorer" also is a really foolish claim to make, and many are making it to justify the potential trade... Anyone who says this team "needs a scorer" before mentioning a big man who can defend and rebound is wrong though. Thaddeus Young can score. Lou Williams can score. Elton Brand can score. Jodie Meeks can score. Jrue Holiday can score. There has been such an overreaction to the Miami series, where the team struggled in the half-court against the Heat. Newsflash: Everyone in the Eastern Conference struggled in the half-court against Miami. That's no reason to make a panic trade because of it."

I don't agree with that at all. We shouldn't trade for Monta, but outside of Detroit, what team has ever won w/o a pretty great scorer? We have some scorers, but no great ones, and I don't expect Holiday or Turner to become great scorers. If you don't believe that a team needs one superstar scorer, wouldn't you at least admit that, leaving our playoff performance aside, this team doesn't have that much offense? You can't win with an average offense, which is what we currently have.

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jkay reply to Tray on Jun 10 at 14:50
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wasn't the formula for a star player? not just a scorer.

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Rich reply to Tray on Jun 10 at 14:59
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Eh, I think you kind of missed the point of that paragraph. I don't really want to make it a historical debate and I don't really care about the "You can't win the championship" arguments because to be honest, the team isn't close to that level yet. The term "pretty good scorer" is also too vague. There would have to be a context behind it. We can talk about it when or if we get there.

I prefer to look at offensive rating and team offense. The Sixers were 17th this year. The Celtics were 10th in the league the year they won. Cleveland was 18th the year before and made the Finals.

Anyway, the whole point of that paragraph was that the team needs a defensive big before any scoring was needed. You don't agree that a defensive big man is the need before "a scorer?"

Be careful, defense wins championships may be a nice phrase - but historical precedences doesn't back it up (in any sports) as a fact (read scorecasting). The sixers need A LOT of things - and they need ALL of them - they do need a guy who can score more - within the system - but still ply defense, and rebound and pass for their position and they ALSO need a big man who can rebound and block shots...they are both equally needed.

They wouldn't be - but the sixers made a stupid ass trade about 12 months ago

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 10 at 15:08
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I guess I'm just looking at the two, and saying that the team would improve more with a solid big than a scorer. I think that's a fair statement. I think currently, that would mean that they need a big guy more.

As far as winning a championship, we're at the point where we are waiting to see if a .500 team makes a panic trade to make them worse and partially impassable on the defensive end for the next three year. Can we hold off on the title talk for awhile? Of course the team needs many more things to compete for a title.

Yes and no. It is way premature to dismiss a move based on title aspirations. But with such a young core of players, I think any move made now has to be looked at more in how it impacts the post-Brand era than how many wins they get next year.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Jun 10 at 15:37
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Looking to the future IMO is the #1 reason you don't add Ellis.

The whole point of that statement I made was people like Bucher and Fagan saying "They need a scorer." Monta Ellis certainly is by all means, a scorer. Saying that the team needs a superstar and a team needs a scorer are different things.

Agree.

I'm pretty simplistic when it comes to NBA success. You need super-high level talent or a combination of very good talent.

If you have that you can mess it up with bad coaching, fit , balance- but generally those things are correctable. But you can only mask a lack of elite talent to a limited degree. Without superstars or at least a high sum of total talent you have a pretty fixed ceiling in the NBA.

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Charlie H reply to tk76 on Jun 10 at 17:32
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I agree. This season, it's been very apparent that talent is the thing. Miami doesn't even have very good team chemistry but they won 3 5-game playoff series. They beat Chicago handily because their talent was so much better. I really think the Sixers played the best against them of those 3 teams.

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Tray reply to Rich on Jun 10 at 16:16
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Cleveland never had a chance that year. They were the best team in a very bad conference. As far as a defensive big vs. a scorer, I don't know which we need first. I would say that, in order to contend, we need both. I'd say that building towards being a contender is more important than making incremental moves to become a .600 team. If you build the team like that, you might always just be a .600 team. And I'd also say that there are fewer superstars/really good scorers than defensive big men. It isn't that hard to find someone like Joel Anthony, Miami's closest thing to a defensive big man.

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Rich reply to Tray on Jun 10 at 16:53
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"I'd say that building towards being a contender is more important than making incremental moves to become a .600 team. If you build the team like that, you might always just be a .600 team."

Then you would want a "blow it up" type of option if they traded Iguodala, maybe around a younger player and a pick? I would like that better than an Ellis deal.

I'm not really arguing with you. The team needs a scorer to win a title, but my point was that Monta Ellis isn't that guy. The team has enough guys that score to pass on Monta Ellis.

Cherrypicking specific teams like Miami (who has two stars) really is fruitless when discussing what the Sixers do need. That blueprint is not something you can try and follow. The fact that they have three very good two-way players (maybe not Bosh) makes playing Joel Anthony acceptable. Dallas on the other hand needed a presence like Chandler to put them over the top in the West. They tried for years to put scorers around Dirk.

+1.
allow me to paraphrase: find something or someone that the other teams can't stop.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2011/06/09/sports/doc4df0352ec42f8150021934.txt

Look at this idiot, saying the Sixers would hae to sweeten the deal andthe warriors would be crazy to accept a straight up deal. It should be the warriors sweetening the offer with someone like Udoh not us.

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Sixers Optimist on Jun 10 at 15:43
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I don't get why the folks on this blog don't see the opportunity in the Monta Ellis deal. I'm confident the author of this piece wouldn't address it - because he's clearly an Iggy fan and would never want him traded.

The fact of the matter is that Golden State's interest is a real opportunity. If you don't want Monta Ellis on the Sixers, that doesn't mean he isn't valued in the league. The same story that published the rumor indicated both Chicago and Memphis were also interested.

I say, look for who you'd like on Chicago or Memphis and find a three way deal that provides the value you are looking for. If Iggy is going to get traded - the fact there is an all star player averaging 25 pts/game who makes less than him is clearly an opportunity --- even if only to find a third party to make the deal work. It's clear that the player the Warriors really want is Iggy. Advantage Sixers ... now do some work and find a deal that makes sense.

Consider:
Memphis cannot resign all it's players and will have to make some sacrifices.

Any appetite for one of these:
Sixers - Marc Gasol [on sign and trade by Memphis
Memphis - Monta Ellis, Mo Speights
Warriors - Iguodala
or
Sixers - O.J. Mayo, Shane Battier [on sign and trade]
Memphis - Monta Ellis
Warriors - Iguodala

Would they sign and trade Mark Gasol into the deal if they got Monta Ellis and Mo Speights back? Or, how about the Sixers

The problem I (and probably most of the 'Iggy fans' on this blog) have with Ellis is the contract not the player himself.

I like the Marc Gasol one. Cap space, big man with some potential. Would try and leverage a mid 1st pick too.

No one said they were against using Ellis in a 3 way deal. People have come out against a straight up Iguodala for Ellis swap because they don't want Ellis on the Sixers.

Just because I'm a fan of the guy doesn't mean I wouldn't want him traded, so it's hard to say you know what I would want. I want something back for him, that's all.

The whole point is that I wouldn't want Monta Ellis for Iguodala. Marc Gasol would be acceptable, but Memphis probably doesn't do that.

From everything I have read Memphis is trying very hard to resign Gasol. Now why they would take on a guy who makes 11 mil per over three years and unload Gasol is hazy.

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likeitis on Jun 10 at 16:31
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I really can't believe how many of the regulars (you know who you are) on here talk about the game of basketball like they wrote the book. No matter how many numbers you crunch or how many times you argue your ridiculous hypothetical points with one another, you are not nearly as well versed in BASKETBALL as anyone in any front office on any team in the league. I know it's fun to pretend (on here) that you could easily come up with a solution to the Sixers' problems, but unfortunately most of you are just Stat Geeks that probably never played the game. I'm just as pissed about the direction Stefanski has taken us in, but come on do you really think you know better than someone who's been doing this most of their adult life?

People don't come down to the local fast food joint that you work at and tell you how to get the fries golden brown, they let you do your job.

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jkay reply to likeitis on Jun 10 at 16:46
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if you truly believe in your stance, you would shut up (since talking does not achieve anything) and allow us to continue bitching in peace.

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Tre reply to likeitis on Jun 10 at 16:47
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When your front office trades away your only big man that can block shots, rebound, and play interior defense for a stiff white guy and a bench player with 12 million left on the books- You are allowed to doubt their decision making.

Also are you telling me that no one on this blog knows more than Isiah Thomas? That no one here was smart enough to trade for Steve Francis, sign Jared Jeffries to a monster deal and put the teams hopes on Fred Jones?


So what is worse, people wasting their time discussing basketball front office decisions... or someone discussing how people waste their time discussing basketball front office decisions?

What exactly would be a good thing to post on a basketball blog?

In the world of the NBA - terrible people keep getting rehired (isiah thomas is a candidate for the pistons head coaching job - do you think isiah thomas is a good coach)

Posts like this always confuse me - if it bothers you so much - why do you read a blog - do you have anything constructive to add ABOUT the sixers or are you just a whiny troll?

I remember when Stefanski held a conference chat (or was it call?) with select bloggers and blogs like DF, LB, RealGM I think were part of that. I really believe in the power of the internet. So I hope that one day the voice of blogs will become powerful enough to have some tangible influence on the decisions of the organization.
Similar to how conservative talk radio now dictates to the Republican Party. (sorry to bring politics into this)

What about Iguodala and the #16 pick to the Jazz for Mehmet Okur and the #3 pick? Okur has an expiring contract and should hopefully be healthy by next season.


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