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Andre Iguodala Stat Rankings

I think Iguodala should crash the boards more. Especially since we don't have a legit center. Does this effect the transition game? Also I never seen Iggy use any post up moves. He doesn't have long arms like Marion and he has the height of a shooting guard. He has no size advantage in the post. His FT% is awful. 69% is unacceptable and he always seems to miss them in critical situations. He'll never be a good jump shooter but he should at least be able to hit a wide open 3, the way Bruce Bowen or Shane Battier does.

Battier shot 36.7% on spot-up three point shots.

Iguodala shot 38.6%.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 6:46
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FG% is a meaningless stat

Then again, he wasn't talking about FG% was he. He was talking about 3 point percentage and it's useful if you want to compare two players.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 19:19
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then again, 3p FG% is a subset of FG% . so if FG% is meaningless than by definition so is 3PT %. but i guess this works when defending Iguodala, not the other way

When you're comparing how well two players shoot open threes, a percentage is sufficient. If you can't grasp that, I can't help you.

I like Iggy, and thought his contract at the time he signed it was fine. There's too many stats here for a simpleton like me, but if he ranks 11th overall among SFs, then that's only going to add fuel to the fire of those who say he's overpaid. I don't really have an opinion on whether he's overpaid (to me, everyone's overpaid), but I do feel that the 3 escalating years remaining on his deal are killing his trade value.

Nice post. You don't need to do any extra convincing. If you look at the combination of assist percentage, defensive rating, and wins produced, it's clear that there is no more versital talent at the position in the league save for LBJ.

The only stats that are important to me anymore are these:

41-41
27-55
The only stats that matter at the end of the day are these:


41-41
27-55
41-41
40-42
35-47
38-44

Do you Iguodala's play over the next 3 years (leadership, efficiency, defense) make this team
significantly better? If you can honestly say that this team makes that jump with him as the best
player on the team then he should stay.

I say what he brings to the court can be filled with younger (not to mention cheaper) players.

So you want Monta Ellis for him, huh?

36-46
26-56
31-51

Golden State's record with him as their best player.

This isn't a convincing argument and doesn't say anything about an individual player when you look at it in a vacuum.

Who said anything about Ellis? I asked the question about Iguodala? Will he be the difference maker over the rest of his contract?

It sais everything about a player. Does his play as the best on the team lead directly to winning games and making the team to improve? If his play only leads to being average/mediocre then why keep him?

There's no doubt in my mind that Iguodala made his teammates better this past year. Ask Brand, Thad, or Meeks (and, at least to some extent, everyone else) whether their games were that much better when Iguodala was on the floor with them.

Recordwise, not that it's going to convince you, the Sixers were 36-31 when Iguodala played this year (5-10 when he didn't). That 36-31 includes a 1-8 from the beginning of the year when the team and the coach were finding themselves. So in the last 58 games that Iguodala played, the team was 35-23, or 49-win pace ... not exactly mediocre.

And it's unlikely at best that younger, cheaper players will replace what Iguodala brings, because the positives he brought this past year -- the combination of passing and defense -- were matched by few small forwards in the NBA (really only LeBron). The question that should be asked, and it's a legitimate one, is whether a different type of small forward, with different strengths (e.g., a volume scorer like Carmelo Anthony), would bring the Sixers more wins.

Very good explanation Statman as always. That last paragraph really sums up what we should truly focus on. I am in the camp that believes that we need to balance out our roster and trading Iguodala is probably the best way to accomplish it. I believe that what this team really needs is a guy who can play off the ball full time, is a very good three point shooter and above average defender. Whether that player is a SG or a SF is not as important, although i would prefer a SF.

I guess I am not as sold on ET at SF as you are.

I would be fine with ET at SF if the Sixers had a really big SG (say 6'6) next to him. But I don't think you can play ET at SF next to a Meeks or Ellis sized SG and not suffer some on defense.

I am not sold on Turner as a SF either but i think he can play there with the right players at SG and PF. And no Ellis at SG is not the type of player i would target to play with Jrue and Turner, which is why if it's true that some kind of deal between GSW and Philly is being seriously discussed i hope D. Wright will be involved in it alongside Ellis. We can add Lou if need be. Long term i like that Jrue/Turner/Wright with Ellis as a 6th man rotation better than the current setup.

The team's record does say something about Iguodala... but it says a ton more about the front office. These are the conclusions I draw from the Sixers record regarding Iguodala:

The Sixers lack of success means that either Iguodala is not good enough to be a team's best player, or his supporting cast must be terrible (ie KG for many of his years in Minny.) Most top players get winning records most years. So this suggests Iguodala is not a top 15 NBA player...

-But no one here is arguing that Iguodala is top 15.

-Not being good enough to be a team's top player is in itself not a reason to tradde a guy, unless he somehow prevents you from adding a top player. And Iguodala's complementary strengths and low usage rate suggests he'd be great alongside a top player. It is the front offices job/fault regarding not getting one.

-Iguodala is not paid as a top 40 player. His contract goes up (which again is on Stefanski) but he never will be paid in the top 15 (or maybe not even top 20.) On a majority of NBA playoff teams Iguodala would have been the 3rd or 4th highest payed player.

So When I look at the Sixers struggles I am frustrated by their front office. I see Iguodala as a guy who would be great to have next to other top players. I see a guy who makes #3 money being asked to be the #1 on the Sixers years after year because they are always full of dead weight contracts, and Brand (paid #1/2 money) is not producing worth his contract.

That said, I think the Sixers have put themselves in a position where is is time to trade Iguodala. The have a weak front-court that will become terrible once Brand is gone. They have some backcourt players who can step up and replace much of Iguodala's all around production. So they are better off trading Iguodala for some potential front-court help.

This team won 41 games with spencer hawes trying to play center for crying out loud.

In other words, keep him(Iguodala that is), find a big who's at least moderately productive, and make that run at fifty next season. This team should be back on the rise, which they won't be when he's gone.

They would have won 50 with Monta Ellis instead

I've always been an iguodala fan, and unless we swap him for a perennial all star and guaranteed superstar moving him is going to be a very bad idea. All that needs to be done is give him one more supporting offensive option to take off the pressure he has to go through on a nightly basis. Let's keep him in philly. We can win with him here as long as they bring in some help

If this team gets better Iggy will be the "help"

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deepsixersuede on Jun 13 at 7:22
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If what he does on the court was what mattered, we know he wouldn't be traded. But it goes deeper than that it seems. I wish Collins would step up and say something if he feels as strongly as us about him.

As a silver lining, if these new owners are willing to spend, and the new cba allows for overspending, than he could possibly finally get a star[batman] to his robin.

"Step up" implies that a desire to keep Iguodala exists. Have you considered the possibility that Collins wants him moved for reasons outside of the finite and ultimately inconclusive realm of statistics? While it may be anathema to some on this board, such a stance, privately, isn't inconceivable. In the end, warrior spirit/passion (loud, quiet or in-between) and maturity - not self-pride, not cleverness, not posture - rule the day. In my humble opinion, Iguodala is wanting in such respects, Stefanski's frontal lobe contractual fix notwithstanding.

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Cin reply to Ty Game on Jun 13 at 9:36
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Collins could throw more statistics off the top of his head than most of the posters here. In fact, I do remember him saying he trended the prevalent statistics of winning teams and tailored his focuses around them. The only reason Collins would want Iguodala moved is for greater scheme execution, with Iguodala being exchanged for an athletic, defensive big man.

Yeah, Doug chatters figures like "Rain Man" but he knows a thing or two about human nature and group dynamics as he approaches his 60th birthday. "Greater scheme execution" translates to 'improved coordination of parts' - the hoping reason for most trade transactions.

If Iguodala, the chip, nets them a game-changing athletic big, with a shortage in the market, the responsible administrators will have done a wondrous job.

If Iguodala, the chip, nets them a game-changing athletic big, with a shortage in the market

I love when Iguodala haters make comments like this. He stinks, but yeah he'll net a good player in exchange.

How do you justify that conflicting rationale in your mind?

How do you justify writing before learning to read & comprehend?

Trolls are easy to comprehend.

I just need to stop feeding them.

'Contort & distort' doesn't shock or awe - it's your m.o. Good luck with that.

You disregarded context, lifted an extract and warped it for your own purpose. The deviance may stem from your early midwestern persecutions. Hang in there.

"Troll" - that's got a cheap derivitive sheen to it. I can tell by the tone of your writing that you're an especially cool guy. I hear Iggy likes you.

You're right, your esoteric intangible non measurable points are much better ways to analyze a player.

One of the most forward thinking stats teams in the league just won the NBA title over the 'great team' that everyone assumed would win.

Why are all the Ellis advocates suddenly now saying they need to trade him for a big man? I thought Ellis had "it" and Doug would get him to defend.

Because the facts are against them, so when the facts are against you, don't admit it, change the argument and think no one will notice

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 11:15
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Huh? I haven't crossed over. Sure I'd love to get a big man for him but if you can get Monta Ellis for him. Do it. Now.

If you take Spencer Hawes and Elton Brand as your primary 5-men and install a team defense that finishes top 10, then it's hard for me to doubt Monta would be such a revolving door on that end, especially for this coach.

are you seriously willing to gamble on that hypothesis?
if that's what you're banking on to justify you acquisition, you do understand the implications, if you are wrong?
(No offense DC)

I know you question Iguodala's leadership, and that's part of the reason you want him gone. What do you think about Ellis' leadership in GSW? Last year he publicly said a Curry/Ellis back court wouldn't work. This year, he's had a rift with Lee to the point where they won't even speak to each other off the court. You've also got serious maturity issues with Monta. None of that matters, or will Doug be a magical healer in all those areas with Monta as well? And if you think he will be, why wasn't Collins able to get more out of Iguodala in those areas?

why wasn't Collins able to get more out of Iguodala in those areas?

We all know that if Iguodala were a better person, player, leader, lover of basketball and all things good and right in the world, Collins would have gotten more out of him.

It's not Collins fault, Iguodala is a turd - isn't he?

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:28
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hmmmn.. very good questions / points.

You are correct that is only part of the reason I wouldn't be upset to see him go (though it isn't a stretch to admit his defense will be sorely missed)

I faintly remember something about the public comments of him and Curry not working (he was right about that though wasn't he?). Did not know about the Lee drama. Maturity issues can be a tricky thing. Some players I'd say that a change of scenery would trigger changes otherwise, but can't say for sure about that helping maturity, though if anyone could get a grip on it I'd put my faith in Doug.

My answer to why Doug couldn't get 'those areas' out of Iguodala is the same thing I've been claiming for 2 or 3 years now - his ego is too big. He truly thinks he's a bonafide star.

Are you admitting here that Iguodala didn't exactly exemplify himself as a leader of the team? By saying why couldn't Doug get more out of him?

No, I was referring to your take on Iguodala. And I'm afraid if ego is your complaint about Iguodala, his pales in comparison to Ellis'.

Damn it, stupid session cookie, i wrote a really long thing about how this whole 'ego' thing for iguodala is tiring based on no actual evidence. I suppose it's his not publicly complaining about shots, or doing what collins asks him to do whether it's handle the ball less or more, or being one of the best defenders in the league and getting no recogniztion and no complaining, or being publicly flogged by a fan base constantly cause he doesn't score enough oints and noit pointing out they don't recognize what he actually DOES do. He doesn't hit the grind and act like a prima donna like the one who should really take the blame in miami.

I'm just curios how everyone knows Iguodala has such an ego and has known for years. I mean he even had the ultimate prima donna as a team mate for years, so maybe it's just assumed he's one too.

It's as irritating as the 'club house cancer' bs

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johnrosz reply to eddies' heady's on Jun 13 at 21:42
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there still remains the issue of Iguodala skipping his exit meeting. None of the apologists seem to care about that. It's not something to be swept under the rug as far as I'm concerned, people like Tom Moore have stuck with the story up to this point. It's a real thing to me. And in this age of technology, it's complete bullshit to just call it some kind of "mix up". It was intentional. Hard to even call him a leader after something like that....

God forbid Lou or Spencer skipped an exit meeting, this place would explode.

Actually, we probably would have never heard about it if it was anyone other than Iguodala. Not that that's an excuse.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:51
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Tom wrote this today, I was checking out his thread on the RealGM page:

"It was actually Rod Thorn who said it. The excuse didn't hold water because the other players had season-ending physicals, talked to the media and met with management for exit interviews. But Thorn had to say something. A week later, he told me he heard Iguodala was in China (on a Nike trip), but it's unclear if Iguodala actually went. Would probably do the same thing in Thorn's position. If he rips Iguodala, all he does is decrease the trade value."

Tom is about as reliable as they come with this stuff, so I think at this point its a matter of whether or not you're ok with Iguodala skipping the exit meeting, rather than the validity of it being true or not.

I wouldn't care that much other than the fact that Doug did just about everything he could to gain Iggy's trust, and to stand up DC, who seems to have the back of every single one of his players, it just isn't right.

Kate Fagan is the only one who ever reported it wasn't a legit issue, and she was wrong.

I've said from the beginning there's no excuse. I don't know exactly what happened at the time or what's happened since, but is it a firable (or tradeable) offense? Not to me. Not without a history of insubordination, which Iguodala does not have. This was out of character, I'd need to see how he reacted when we talked.

Probably a moot point, to be honest with you. I don't expect Thorn to be here after the sale.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 22:00
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I agree about Thorn, I think that's why it could end up being more of an issue between Andre and DC. Thorn is irrelevant, he's playing fantasy GM in his office for the next few weeks at most. Doug is the guy who's had a huge ego for years, I don't know if he'll take kindly to being stood up by the guy who he expects to set an example for the young guys on the roster.

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eddies' heady's reply to johnrosz on Jun 13 at 21:59
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I mentioned this Tom Moore thing the other day on Rich's post but he just shot it down and said "read the article again". But Rich was talking about the Fagan article and I was referring to what you just quoted Tom saying. I mentioned also the part about Doug having his back and he just thumbs his nose up at him like that?

It was pretty inexcuable to me, being that he supposedly had "input" with Stefanski and what they should/shouldn't do two years before after the DiLeo/no Dwight Howard game 6 debacle.

However, the "average" starting SF (Prince, Dorell Wright, Grant Hill were right around average PER, for example) was still quite good.

Nice article on Iggy. As a Clipper fan, the price on Iggy seems to be too high. I'm hoping that the Clippers just do a Chris Kaman for Tayshaun Prince Sign and Trade with the Pistons which will save the Clippers salary and trade assets.

In your opinion, how good of a small forward is Tayshaun?

I think the problem is that Clippers fans think Chris Kana has on court value, which he really doesn't. He's an expiring contract

He's not going to be a contributor by the time the rest of the Clippers core is ready to compete. Right now, he's still decent defensively, not much offensive game left. Definitely an upgrade over Gomes/Aminu, but a sign-and-trade means locking him down for 3-6 years, which would be a mistake. He's also 4 years older than Iguodala.

But a straight up deal between him and Kaman kind of makes sense - more sense than Iguodala Kaman - from a player point of view.

Lost in all the hoopla last night (by the way) is (I think) the fact that Rick carlisle gets redemption after the shaft he got in Detroit

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Keith reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 11:33
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Thanks for the input Brian,

Here's my hope of what the Clippers do this off-season.

1. Obviously resign Deandre Jordan.

2. Do a sign and trade of Chris Kaman for Tayshaun Prince for three years at around $24-30 million. Prince's contract could start at Kaman's current salary and then descend which would make Prince less of an albatross going into the future.

What do you think of this starting five:

Jordan/Griffin/Prince/Gordon/Mo Williams?

Do you think they could make the playoffs next season?

Honestly, no. They need a playmaker in the worst way, and Prince isn't that guy. Iguodala's really a perfect fit for you guys.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 18:54
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Maybe that team could make it. I mean, is that team less talented than Memphis? I think that, with experience, they'll soon become a decent team, even without a great point guard/point forward.

This season, no way. Mo Williams isn't even close to being a legit PG. W/out someone to distribute and handle, they're nowhere near as good as Memphis. I do like Prince/Gordon on the defensive end, though. Nice combo. One of them is going to have to do a lot of covering for Mo Williams, though. Just like Jordan is going to have to do serious covering for Blake Griffin. Griffin also won't be as big of a factor on the offensive end as he should be w/out a legit PG/Point-Forward.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:44
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Where I was going with this was, how legit is Mike Conley? Getting more legit all the time, it seems, and definitely more of a passer than Williams, but still.

Personally, I don't think a whole lot of Conley, but he's head-and-shoulders above Mo Williams as a PG.

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Scott reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 0:07
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Deandre Jordan and Chris Kaman are okay, but the Clippers have the assets to go for the superduperstar. They should swing for the fences for Dwight Howard.

Put their chips on the table:

Kaman's and Foye's expiring contracts, 2012 Minnesota pick, a sign and traded DeAndre Jordan, Bledsoe and Aminu.

Throw all those players at Orlando for Dwight Howard, Hedo Turkoglu and a couple of overpaid role players like Duhon and Q. Richardson.

A big three of Griffin, Howard, and Gordon can win a NBA championship even with Mo Williams/Chris Duhon as their point guards and Hedo Turkoglu/Q.Rich/Ryan Gomes as their small forwards...

I don't think that is enough to get Howard. They would have to minimum give up either Gordon + picks or Griffin.

I think the best thing to do is keep Andre. Then we should try and turn our first round draft pick this year into a first round draft pick next year. It seems like depending on the CBA there should be more prospects in next years draft class. More first round draft picks could help fill the roster out in need areas. That being said if they think that they will not be able to sign Thad to a reasonable contract then I think you have to hope that either Singleton, one of the Morris brothers, Harris or Faried are there when we pick at 16. they are all different players but I think they would all be able to fill some if not most of Thad's minutes.

It seems like depending on the CBA there should be more prospects in next years draft class.

Which would make this years picks a lot less valuable than next years, so what would you kick in aside from the 16th pick in the draft to make a team give up a valuable 2012 pick (as of now)?

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 11:55
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I would give up Lou williams, not that i do not think Lou is a good player but he is the one guy who's contribution and minutes can be replaced by what we have on our roster right now and a second round pick. Or you could see if our 1st and 2nd round pick could net us another first round pick next year.

You think lou williams and the #16 pick in a weaker drafter will be appealing enough to a team you think is going to have a higher lottery pick next year?

Lou Williams is very good at what he does, but what he does isn't hard to find, and most teams don't sign those kind of guys to super long term deals, they're fungible.

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 18:27
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This is were you have to be target the right team. A team that can see how important bench depth/bench scoring are to teams. So look for a team with depth at the 5/4 but not much at the point or 2 position make the offer and see what you can get. If you do not like it keep the draft pick and Lou. Though If we stay put I would not be mad if they shipped Lou out to give Turner more playing time including some time where he has the ball.

Great post Statman. Although I hate statistics, as a general principle that is unrelated to sports, i will bookmark this page so I can re-read it. Lots of candy in this one.

Why would you hate statistics, statstics are neutral - people abuse them - but statistics themselves are just there

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 16:13
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it's a long story. i will leave it at that.

Well ok, but it's the weirdest thing i've ever heard, hating a school subject like that

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 20:35
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even stranger, I was a math whiz then.

I'm probably the only one who thinks that your stats mentor made you his or her sub bitch and turned you off stats forever, huh?

What is the projected salary cap for next season?

Impossible to even guess at - new CBA will decide next cap number, and no one is really sure what it will be, ho w it will be determined and if it'll be a hard or soft cap

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 12:20
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I guess the question is: As an owner of the Sixers, is keeping Igoudala worth paying the luxury tax ?

You're basing your guesses and assumptions on the current CBA which expires in 2 1/2 weeks, no one knows what the new CBA will look like...and there will be (in my opinion) a lockout and a new CBA that strongly favors the owners so making conclusions based on the current one isn't a good idea.

Even under the old CBA, they wouldn't be near the luxury tax unless they grossly overpaid for Thad. They're in better shape than most teams, so I don't think it'll be an issue under the new CBA either.

They're in better tax shape than most teams - but crappy 'cap room' shape.

And you know they'll over pay for Thad :)

Well, there's really no distinction between cap and tax space right now. There's just your overall number. And their overall number relative to the rest of the league is fine, Thad's dumb contract not withstanding.

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Stan reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 13:01
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Then I guess there is no point in trading Iguodala. You could have made the argument as an owner, that trading Iguodala would make the Sixers go from 25th to 28th in attendance, but the price difference in paying the luxury tax is less than the loss of revenue from attendance. That's the only justification to trading him for Ellis or Kaman. Cap space is worthless since trading Iguodala based on this year's cap would only net you around 1 million to spend. Development of the younger players is BS since Ellis attempts 10 more FGs a game than Iggy and those extra shot attempts will be taken away from Jrue or Turner. Better value is also BS since Kaman or Ellis haven't been close to sniffing to .500 basketball in the past 4 years.

If you are building for something over the next 3-4 years then I do think it makes sense to trade Iguodala if it helps you get a young, promising big who would fit and balance out the rest of the young players.

Do you have a couple of names in mind?

Does Deandre Jordan count as a name?

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Stuart reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 13:27
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tiago splitter? not really talked about much, but seems to have a lot of promise

I'm not sure I'd want splitter, but the rationale doesn't make sense. I very much think the spurs are very good at evaluating talent (though they let scola go didn't they?), so if the spurs are ready to give up on Splitter, after one year, what does that say about him?

Said it didn't make sense.

So I heard some crazy knee jerk rumor on the radio this morning involving chris bosh and the rockets and scola being part of it.

Rockes players are ALWAYS in play :)

I don't know what Iguodala's worth is in the league. There are a ton of variables once you start talking contracts, CBA, age etc. It also depends on how willing a team is to trade someone based on other replacements they have on the roster.

So I can't say who an "equal value" young big would be. But some players who could fit who fit, ignoring whether Igudala has more or less value:

McGee
Ibaka
Mahimini
Asik
Bismack
Kanter
Tyrus Thomas
Ed Davis

I'm sure there are more names...

Ugh that list is depressing. The only guy that is even remotely worth Iguodala is Ibaka. Of the rest, regardless of value, i like Asik and am relatively high on Kanter, Biyombo and Valanciunas (whom you forgot to mention i guess). The others i do not like at all for various reasons. And how on earth is Mahinmi even close to a good fit. The guy is barely a rotational player. I would much rather have Hawes than him...

Anyway i wouldn't trade Iguodala for any of them...

Of course by that i mean i wouldn't trade him straight up. If there are additional assets involved (players or cap space) i would seriously consider the guys in the draft and Ibaka.

I was to lazy to look up Vala's name and did not want to misspell it :) Like I said, I'm sure there are other names out there.

Sort of thinking of when relatively unknown Ratliff and Ben Wallace were acquired in trades of bigger name players.

Is the Stackhouse trade the last truly positive trade this franchise has made? Like an unmitigated success?

Meeks

Eh. Good trade, but didn't really change a whole lot. The Green trade was a good trade as well, addition by subtraction. But I consider both of those minor moves. I can't think of a single big trade they've even come close to winning since the stackhouse deal.

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Jeevan reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 14:03
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I guess you can say that the Webber trade gave the Sixers cap space in 2008 which enabled them to sign Brand.

Dude

How can you not call the Sam Trade a win. Without Hawes this team doesn't make the playoffs, the locker room descends into absolute utter chaos and hatred and bad feelings

We cured cancer.

So you're saying you don't think the Iverson trade was a success?:)

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Steve V reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 14:02
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I'd say the Mutombo trade was a success, never know if we would've still made the finals with Theo , even if he was fully recovered.

Forgot the Mutombo deal, that's a winner too.

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Gerald reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 15:01
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I don't know about you, but I liked the Keith Van Horn trade. We gave up a 38 year old Dikembe Mutumbo to get him and MacCulluh. People didn't like him, but he was a significant upgrade over Matt Harpring and with him we won 48 games (2 games shy of being the #1 seed).

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Mike reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 16:15
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Corless Williamson was a huge upgrade over Coleman despite the fact that we only had him for half a seasom

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Stan reply to tk76 on Jun 13 at 13:46
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McGee
Ibaka
Mahimini
Asik
Bismack
Kanter
Tyrus Thomas
Ed Davis

I like Ibaka, Davis and McGee, though I doubt OKC, TOR and WAS would give them up. Mahimini is a little over hyped, He's been in the league for 3 years and Brendan friggin Haywood has played more than him. Tyrus Thomas isn't worth getting rid of Iggy. I still need to see more of Asik and Kanter to make conclusions about them

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Stan reply to tk76 on Jun 13 at 13:38
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How would it help you in getting a promising big? By being a lottery team and getting a promising big man in the draft? By saving enough in salary to go after DeAndre Jordan or Javale McGee in a few years? Or by using him to trade up for Bismack? If trading him can bring in a promising big man, than I'm all for it. Promising big man, Jrue, and Turner is a decent foundation to build around.

Based on a 58 million salary cap and not resigning Thad or any draft picks, A Kaman trade would give the Sixers 33 million to spend, and an Ellis trade would give the Sixers 22 million to spend in 2012. Keeping Iggy gives would still allow us to spend 18 million.

No one knows.

There's one thing I find weird.

All this 'Turner can replace Iguodala talk'. Where the hell does it come from? People who hated Turner all season, since he was picked suddenly think the sixers can afford to lose Iguodala because of Turner.

I'm 'pro' Evan Turner and I don't think he's shown enough to be a starter yet, so all this Evan Turner replaced Iguodala talk is fascinating. He hasn't shown he's ready to start and compete at the level Iguodala does every game.

He made a nice showing in the playoffs.

I do think a combo of Jrue and ET can replace Iguodala's ball handling and playmaking and "glueness" in the long term. But no one on the roster replaces his defense. That does not mean you can't replace it.

He had a nice showing in 5 games where no one really bothered to care what he did on the other team?

So did Sam Dalembert, right before he got a large contract everyone said was too big.

5 games, even in the playoffs, not something to get excited over, not enough to say 'yeah he's ready, Iguodala is superfluous'.

Are we even sure they JIT was played enough this year to be sure it doesn't work?

I was answering "where it came from." I'm not sure how reasonable it is. I'm not ET's biggest supporter here.

It's just interesting to see those who were unsure about Turner change their minds just to support Iguodala hatred

eddy's in particular seems suddenly thrilled with the idea of bringing Monta in, moving the "bulldog" to the bench and handing the SF position over to Turner. Which seems odd, considering his statements throughout the season.

Although my guess is he'll pick a second rounder who he thinks should step right in at the three like Wayne Ellington a couple years back.

I made no mention of any particular names now did i?

Wilbon said this today


Let me tell you what four different agents told me two weeks ago during the Bulls-Miami series: good players are SCREAMING to play with Miami (the non-scorers and fill-in guys, rebounders, shot blockers) while the scorers are SCREAMING to play with Derrick Rose. You've got big markets and players veteran guys who want rings are begging, literally, to play with. Miami won't have any trouble upgrading its roster AND we're talking Pat Riley here, folks...

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:44
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Whoa now! Where did I mention such a thing?

If you'll see my post from yesterday I penciled in Chris Singleton and Jordan Hamilton and Motiejunas as a starting 3. Though, if the draft pick wasn't for that postion or ready at that position, I'd actually like to see it go to Thad, just to see if he could swim a little, or eventually sink trying to guard other SF's.

Don't be contortive and misrepresent others and warp statements for your own purposes ;)

I figured you'd go with a rook. No mention of the bulldog, though.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 22:11
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Well I didn't see him starting over Monta. Are you saying he could play some 3? Cause I don't think you are as neither do I?

Nah, I was saying you consider the bulldog a plus defender at the two, so you're subtracting Iguodala and Meeks - probably the only two starters you consider to be plus defenders - and replacing them with a rookie and Monta. Recipe for success?

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 23:10
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Eh, I wouldn't go as far as to say Meeks is a plus defender. Average or adequate - yes.

As for the recipe for success - two steps backward before going forward. This mediocrity is way overdone.

I agree that Monta would represent two steps back, I didn't think that was the argument you were making.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 23:26
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ha, well it kind of wasn't. Though I said yesterday that if we had Monta, and Chris Singleton manning the 3 I still think we could have finished with a break even record. Just as with Iguodala.

So a different kind of mediocrity is your goal?

We'll have to agree to disagree on the results w/ a Monta/Singleton tandem on the wings. I do like Singleton, though. Much more than the bigs who are projected to be available at #16.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 23:53
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lol, the more i keep talking the more it sounds like it doesn't it?

but really, I was just saying that we could do just as good without Iguodala as we are with him. .500 really isn't that hard as many bad teams as there are in this league.

I just think Doug would thrive with sets on the offensive end if he had a scorer like Monta. And the way he devised the defense this year with our lack of post players just makes me have nothing but faith in him being able to do the same with someone like Monta on the perimeter.

May sound crazy but I'd really like to see it happen. Though you give me pause when talking about Monta's attitude and maturity issues, not to mention I wasn't aware that he had this huge ego either. Mental things can overshadow any physical or skill advantages one may have on the court and be a killer of overall team chemistry, imo.


David: There were a shocking amount of Mavs fans. The secondary ticket market in Miami is enormous. A lot of speculators bought season ticket packages and those tickets flooded the market. When the Heat came home with a deficit, Game 6 was, relatively speaking, affordable.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4684865/grab-bag-dalembert-a-possibility

Celtics are eying Sammy in the off-season. Of course they would only have to pry him from sacramento who happen to have around $30 million in cap room

Assuming Sacramento wants to keep him?

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Miguel reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 16:12
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Kings owner Gavin Maloof told The Post at the lottery he will attempt to re-sign Samuel Dalembert, whom the Knicks could snatch if they offer a long-term mid-level deal.

Maloof said the Kings have the most cap space in the league. Nevertheless, Sacramento is stocked with young big men.

"We want to look at trying to sign Samuel," Maloof said. "We obviously like his skill. We have cap space. We're going to spend some money this year. We have DeMarcus Cousins and Jason Thompson, but Sam was a big part of our resurgence at the end of the year. Hopefully we can look at re-signing him. We have money. We'll spend it."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_may_get_the_point_0pvZ49iPhgZrzfwHjyXfrK#ixzz1PBlvmCpL

Yeah, cause you should always trust what ownership says publicly.

Or maybe they're just using it to scare teams off, kind of like using Anaheim to greenmail Sacramento

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Jeevan reply to Mikey on Jun 13 at 16:09
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I can also see Miami offering Dalembert the same deal, which would be a more enticing destination for the Haitian.

This is how I would rank the FA centers:

DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler
Marc Gasol
Nene Hilario
Sam Dalembert
Tim Duncan
Greg Oden
Yao Ming

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Miguel reply to Jeevan on Jun 13 at 16:14
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Deandre Jordan is not that good...

It really depends on team fit. For the Sixers, I'd rather they go after Jordan because he's younger. If you're talking about who helps you the most this season, it's Chandler if you want defense, Nene if you want offense.

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Miguel reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 16:17
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What about marc gasol?

Well - depends on the new CBA - but he's a restricted free agent and if Heisley is to be believed (and it seems we always believe what owners say) he isn't going anywhere.

Um - yes - a blue print involving draft a 7 feet freak - one of the best 7 footers to play the game the way he does ever.

There's no blue print - there's no mavs victory with our Dirk

And oh yeah in case you forgot

#8 Larry Hughes
#9 Dirk Nowitzki
#10 Paul Pierce

The 'blue print' started that day

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jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 20:46
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I guess people still forget that Nowitzki IS a superstar.
Just cos he is a foreigner and does not stockpile jerseys and shoe commercials, doesn't mean he is not top 10-15 NBA talent.

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Tray reply to jkay on Jun 13 at 21:52
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Top 10-15? More like top 5, don't you think? I'd put Dirk over Durant, for instance; in the long term you want Durant, of course, but at this moment, Dirk is the better player. Actually, I'd put Dirk over Kobe right now. At this point in their careers, they're both guys who make a living scoring from mid-range; Dirk's just a lot better at it. Who's a better player than Dirk, really? LeBron, his awful Finals notwithstanding, Howard, maybe Wade, maybe Paul. After those four, who can dominate the whole game by scoring, defending, passing and/or rebounding, all the big stars are players who primarily affect the game by piling up points. And of those players - Dirk, Durant, Kobe, Amare, Carmelo, Zach Randolph, Griffin, Westbrook - Dirk's by far the most efficient scorer.

Wade
LeBron
Dwight
Dirk
Durant

That's your top five. CP3 isn't there. Kobe isn't even close.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 22:17
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I still value Paul over Durant. He's already physically diminished from what he was, but he's still such a great player, as we saw in the Lakers series. Durant I have a very low opinion of compared to every other NBA fan; I see him having one of those 80s super-scorer careers, like Gervin or Drexler or English. He's kind of a fusion of Dirk and McGrady, if McGrady were way less explosive and frail and Dirk were a much poorer shooter than he is.

Yeah McGrady was so awesome back in the day. His 02-03 season has to rank as one of the greatest offensive years of all time. I miss watching him and his supervein before all the injuries.

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Steve reply to Chunky Soup on Jun 13 at 23:23
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Imagine if McGrady stayed healthy and stayed with the Magic....

They would've never been bad enough to draft Dwight.

I actually wasn't a Durant fan at all until last year, now I think he's pretty much the second best scorer in the game behind Dirk. Those two are the guys you can't guard (Durant isn't there yet, but he will be). Paul's great, and it's not fair, but I think I can't rate him as highly because he's played for such garbage teams. I mean, he's completely carried them, but there's something about the way they play and who he plays with that puts a stink on him for me. Completely subjective, and I realize it's ridiculous.

Drexler was more than just a scorer a la Bernard King.

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jkay reply to Tray on Jun 14 at 0:29
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if McGrady were almost 7 ft tall with freakish wingspan and the hops to get a shot off at will. Durant is trending near unguardable. And he's still skinny.
I think the only reason Paul cannot be too high on any list is that he is not able to impose on the defense. In the end, it really does come down to scoring.

"You can tell the heat don't have real fans . Because The mavs players are in the club right now in Miami. That wont happen in Philly. No sir"

He's right

The finals won't be in philly any time soon - and the night life in philly is not the night life in miami

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 19:01
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Also, there's a certain kind of club, in most any big city, that's insulated from passionate NBA fans. The Knicks have real fans, but a road team that won the Finals in New York would have plenty of welcoming establishments to choose from if they chose to celebrate there.

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The Greek on Jun 13 at 18:28
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How is Dirk as a defender? I'm assuming that he ranks near the bottom of his position.

That's why they put him next to Chandler, who is an elite defensive Center like Chandler, who makes nearly 13M a year.

For the same reason, if you had scoring wing like Ellis or Kevin Martin, you would want to pair him with an Elite defensive wing like Iguodala.

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The Greek reply to tk76 on Jun 13 at 19:32
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Thanks for the response.

He's still better than bosh it seems :)

Since everyone hates Monta because he's so inefficient, what about one of the most efficient scorers in the league, Kevin Martin? As a matter of team-building, I don't really get a lateral move like that, but as far as bringing equal talent back, it would be about as good a move as you could make.

To play next to Iguodala, or trading Iguodala for him?

If you're trading Iguodala for him, it's a much better move than Monta. Personally, I'd prefer to build around defense, though.

Didn't get a chance to finish my thought.

If you're talking about getting Martin without giving Iguodala up, then I'd be in favor of it. Iguodala and Jrue could hide his defense and his shooting is a great compliment, plus he's so efficient. My concern with Martin has always been his frailty.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:57
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I was assuming that we'd get him for Iguodala, which like I said, is probably just a lateral move. If you are dealing Iguodala, and you don't want to go backwards (although I'd always thought the only point of moving Iguodala was precisely that, going backwards), I think that would be as close to equal value as you could get. Alongside Iguodala and Jrue, I dare say he'd make us a dark horse contender if we could add a credible center and a decent back-up. But Morey would have to be in love with Turner for that to happen, and I don't think that Turner's stats recommend him any more than traditional scouting, so it's not like he has this great value to a moneyball GM.

We really don't have a lot to offer outside of Iguodala. I could see Houston liking Thad, so maybe a sign-and-trade (if they still exist in the new CBA).

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 22:07
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Thad is a Morey kind of player. He loves undersized tweener forwards who score and don't do much else. But between Patterson and Scola, I don't know if there's room for Thad. Patterson started to play pretty well towards the end of the year; I think he's their next great 6'8 power forward hope.

So knowing that a team has to have severaln option and plans. I have not heard a lot of what we should do if Thad is allowed to walk. In that case I say we stay at 16 pick the best available from Singleton, Faried, Harris, Hamilton, Morris brothers, Biyombo, Honeycut, Thompson. Then do what ever is not stupid to move back into the first or early second round. Take that pick and take the best available at that pick. You should end up with at least one player able to play 15 min right away if not two players. You should be close to the same level you are right now, maybe even farther ahead. As much as I enjoy watching Thad play we can not over pay for his services/talents without really hurting any long term plans. So I feel IMHO that you givee him a reasonable offer if signs great if not thank you for some great play sorry you had eddie Jordan for a coach and good luck.

You might be overvaluing the depth of this draft. Trading for a late first rounder probably isn't going to get you a rotational guy ever, let alone this year.

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emtmess reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 19:31
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You could be right if that is how the team is rating this draft then I would say see if you can get another first round pick in next years draft using our first and second this year and our second next.

There are a handful of guys who I like. If they're all gone, I'd almost rather they trade out than take a flyer on a guaranteed contract in this draft.

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emtmess reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:43
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I like that idea. would you trade back and try to get another second round pick this year (maybe a euro player with a buyout issue that could join the team in a couple of years or try and get more picks in 2012 or 2013?

At that point, I really wouldn't care. Stefanski would probably just sell the pick and head to Chili's a little earlier than expected.

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Steve V reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 23:01
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I think your underrating the depth of this draft, yes there aren't alot of elite talents at the top, but from the mid first to the mid second there are alot of really talented guys. I think if we do trade Iguodala, and if it's for Ellis , I hope Lou goes with him ad they send us Udoh, then draft Charles Jenkins as the third or fourth guard who can play both guard spots. He's one of my favorite prospects in the draft, along with Travis Leslie, who IMO is going to be an elite perimeter defender ala Tony Allen. Leslie is a better athlete than Allen, the best in the draft IMO, and also is an elite rebounder for a guard. I think people are really sleeping on him.

That's a distinct possibility (my underrating of this draft).

This draft had 'depth' if you like bench players, but if you like starters, franchise changers, it's shallower than Gossip Girl

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emtmess reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 12:54
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ove the Chilli's reff.

I had not even thought about what would happen if we lose Thad and Trade Iguodala. Most likely Iguodala will go for a wing. Suppose it's Ellis; how thin does our already miserable frontcourt get?
Brand is nearing his end, Hawes is a young stiff, Brackins is still a D-League star, Battie is no good or gone. we will probably end up signing a cheap, "sound and experienced" vet like Kurt Thomas, that DC likes for his outside shooting. Could be pretty brutal next season.
This draft pick had better be a pleasant surprise.

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emtmess reply to jkay on Jun 13 at 21:58
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I think if the draft pick is serviceable the team will still be ok. If the team lost both Andre and Thad you will se way to much of Hawes and I can see Brand getting heavy minuets most every night. I really think that both Andre and Thad being gone would be a huge setback for anyone trying to build this roster into a contender, but it would be great for anyone who thinks we need to start all over around Jrue.

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Tray reply to jkay on Jun 13 at 22:03
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I actually think that Kurt Thomas is pretty damn sound and experienced. He's nothing like Battie.

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jkay reply to Tray on Jun 14 at 0:32
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yeah but he makes my grandma look young.

Old news. And a gigantic mistake in Hawes' case, if he actually signs it.

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Max reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 21:59
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I know. I guess I was kind of hoping that we wouldn't offer it to Hawes, because that big oaf will definitely be signing it. What a waste.

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Devon reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 22:09
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Why would it be a gigantic mistake? I can't imagine any team offering him a starting salary over 4 million next season. I would honestly rather sign a combination of Battie, Kurt Thomas, and Jermaine O'Neil for 4 million to hold up the C position until a legitimate one was found.

Because Speights as the starting center is much cheaper and just as good as hawes

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Devon reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 22:18
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I'm sorry, I read it as it would be a gigantic mistake for Hawes to sign it.

Holy crap

I was making a joke mostly - but check it out

http://bkref.com/tiny/AjGeN

Has anyone noticed that we've ended up with the 16th pick plenty of times and still haven't gotten good value out of it?

2008: Mo Speights
2006: Rodney Carney (we traded down for him)
2005: Joey Graham (we traded away this future pick for Kenny Thomas)
2002: Jiri Welsch (traded to Golden State)


Hmm...flag on the play

Can we see the other players taken 16th please?

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emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 22:25
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2010 Luke Babbitt
2009 James Johnson
2007 Nick Young
2004 Kirk snyder
2003 Troy Bell
2001 Kirk Haston
2000 Hedo Turkoglu
1999 Ron Artest
1998 Bryce Drew
1997 Brevin Knight

So yeah - the success rate of the 16th pick - not so high :)

17th has been a lot better:

2010: Kévin Séraphin
2009: Jrue Holiday
2008: Roy Hibbert
2007: Sean Williams
2006: Shawne Williams
2005: Danny Granger
2004: Josh Smith
2003: Žarko Čabarkapa
2002: Juan Dixon
2001: Michael Bradley
2000: Desmon Mason

People have done a lot of research into 'success rates' based on where someone is picked, and it also all depends on the strength of the draft (which is hard to tell long term)

The problem is

Larry Hughes
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce

Anyone who EVER misses larry brown, remember, king didn't want hughges, dileo didn't want hughes, brown wanted hughes

Iverson over Kobe :)

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Steve reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 22:54
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meh, would Kobe have fared better than AI with McKie, Snow, Hill, Lynch, and a 36 year old Mutombo? Iverson was exciting, a badass and brought people to the arena (until he started declining). I debate myself over how I would redo that draft.

I don't Kobe could've won with that team, he would've murdered someone. I do, however, think you wouldn't have had to build a team like that to compete with Kobe as your centerpiece. If that makes any sense. Of course, he probably would've said F You to Philly and demanded a trade to LA, like he did anyway.

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Fred reply to Brian on Jun 13 at 23:17
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Kobe would have been the better centerpiece but I don't think he could have carried the Sixers the way Iverson did early in their careers. Also, I don't think I would have taken the risk on Kobe knowing that he would bitch his way out or jettison as soon as he became a FA. If I owned the Sixers, I would have drafted AI just so that I could fill seats and make the team relevant. People came to see to see him play, not to see the Sixers. He was new, exciting and brought a change to the NBA (probably a bad one).

Kobe went like 13th in that draft and Iverson was a consensus number 1

The fact that TWO people in the room wanted NOT HUGHES (and both turned out better than Hughes) and Brown had the power to over rule them even though he was notoriously - um - well - insane - is worse :)

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Dan reply to GoSixers on Jun 13 at 23:19
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I wonder if AI or AI9 would have played in their rookie years, if Larry Brown was their coach

Larry Brown plays rookies - it's a myth that he doesn't (credit to derek for the research, many moons ago, on realgm.com)

These are the #16 picks that were somehow related to the Sixers.

Other 16th overalls:

2010: Luke Babbit
2009: James Johnson
2008: Mo Speights
2007: Nick Young
2006: Rodney Carney
2005: Antoine Wright
2004: Kirk Snyder
2003: Troy Bell
2002: Jiri Welsch
2001: Kirk Haston
2000: Hedo Türkoğlu

Seriously, in the past 20 years Nick Young, Ron Artest and Hedo are the only decent players to be drafted in that spot. The last all star besides Artest who was drafted at pick 16 was Chris Gatling- I never heard of his name prior to today. Most of these guys aren't even rotational guys on a roster. Some of them even got cut from Euro teams.

So the point is, that very few 16th picks EVER turn into anything, it's not just the sixers (and nick young is not as much - using him in the same sentence as even artest and hedo is insulting to them)

In the past 10 drafts, we had the 16th overall pick 4 times. The other 6 times we didn't have that pick we made good selections: Evan*, Jrue, Thad, Williams, Iguodala, Dalembert. #16 and Sixers don't go well together

All the more reason to trade up a couple spots and take Biyombo.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc

Geek.

Yup, damn proud of it too :)

Now get off my lawn

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Tray reply to Mo on Jun 13 at 22:22
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Speights was a pretty good pick who just went bad. Partly because we've had a bunch of lousy coaches and the one coach good enough to teach him something hates him too much to play him. Which is unfortunate. I think Larry Brown, as much as he would've hated Speights, would at least have tried to make an NBA player out of him.

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johnrosz reply to Tray on Jun 13 at 22:28
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not a chance. Larry wouldn't waste his time with Speights.

You're wrong, and demonstrate that you've read nothing about Speights history going into the draft.

Speights is exactly what people said he was. Great talent, no dedication, no serious work ethic.

No one is going to fix that but him

Has anyone checked out NBA Draft.net's mock lately (Yes, I realize they change their stuff all the time to jack up page views)?

I assume they're just trying to be outlandish, but first they had the Cavs taking Derrick Williams #1, now they have them taking Kanter #1 and then Knight #4.

I think if I were cleveland I'd take Williams number 1, he has got to be better than Hickson and Sessions is a pretty good point guard.

Also, did you see Valanciunas is staying in the draft despite his agent and lawyer being unable to reach a buyout agreement? Listen up teams picking 1-15, NO WAY will you be able to afford to pay his buyout, so don't even bother wasting the pick!

heh. It'd be something if they had their pick of him and Biyombo at #16 after mocks had them both in the top 5 at different points.

Oh man, I'd be crazy going back and forth on which one they should pick. And then the Sixers would pass on both to take Jimmer and you'd never hear from me again.

That would be sick. They could run a super-small lineup out there:

Brackins
Meeks
Jimmer
Monta
Lou

The best thing about that lineup is there is a 90% chance it would lead to a Brackins-Ellis fistfight on the floor after Brackins puts up four straight 20 footers.

I'd trade the farm to get #17... and then pick both :)

On Speights: 49% career shooters don't arrive everyday. Per 36 numbers aren't bad. Coaching discontinuity - 4 in his 3 seasons - hasn't helped him at all. Is only 23 yrs 10 mos old. If he can't win favor with Collins, maybe another franchise can utilize him. If he ever got in top shape, could help somebody. Big if, I know.

ughh. How do you create an account on this blog? I am tired putting in my fake name and creating fake email addresses and then getting a confirmation page each time I make a comment. I've been following this blog for 2 years now.

Go here Click "sign up" at the bottom right. You can also click "remember me" and it'll remember your info, most of the time. Everyone gets the confirmation page, though. It gives the system a chance to post each comment without immediately needing to republish the page.

Make a new plan, Stan.


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