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Andre Iguodala: Prediction vs. Performance

HendrikDB on Jun 14 at 0:20

It's always the same story, defence almost never gets any credit unless you always talk about it like the Celtics. The Sixers have played great defence this year, with Andre doing the hardest work. I still find it amazing that they pulled this off with Hawes and Brand, both very slow on their feet and Jrue who had ups and downs defensively.

Concidering his injury I think he played a great season, probably one of the better seasons of his career. He didn't exactly score well, but basketball is so much more than shooting the ball. It's as Jason Kidd said to all the youngsters trying to make it to the NBA: move the ball.

I really hope we keep Andre. The Warriors are starting to overhype Ellis so the Sixers would give up more. Let's hope the Sixers don't fall for that and hang onto Andre unless they get a solid center. All they need is someone like Chandler and some picks are always nice.

deepsixersuede on Jun 14 at 7:08

With Bismack dropping to #11 on draftxpress and "the Jimmer" moving up to #7 because of a great workout in Sacramento maybe offense trumps defense in some organizations' minds.

We thought we needed a top 7 pick to get a big but with things changing perhaps another team targets Iggy. If Charlotte offered #9 and #19 plus filler would ya? Or if Bismack is sitting there when Gold. St. picks maybe Ellis and #11 for Iggy gets done. Otherwise keep him please.

Attention: All bleeding Iguodala jackboots are to report to the Ben Warley Municipal Field at 9:00 AM for maneuvers. Medic tents are in place. Bring your canteen and expect rigorous engagement with an imaginary enemy. The honorable Lieutenant Colonel Dave Gambee will commence activity with a demonstration of the underhanded free throw, guaranteed for a greater-than-69% success rate.

JJG: I found your comment amusing, but it might have been more effective if I had understood the allusions without having to look up who those names were (mid-60's Sixers). Somehow, with your stated preference for players with the proper attitude and spirit, I'm guessing you weren't the biggest Wilt fan back in the day?

Here's an oldtimer question for you (and Charlie H): what was the deal with the NBA in the 60's? The stats say that teams routinely averaged 120 PPG but only shot about 42%. Was it poor shooting, poor shot selection, frenetic play, or all of the above?

The Greek reply to Ty Game on Jun 14 at 12:04

Ty Game are you JJG? Your writing is the only thing that I miss from that past blog.

The Iggy situation has been beaten to death over and over again. I hope he finds happiness in his next location.

Yeah, The Greek, it's me, jjg. Noticed you on here recently, made me smile - always liked your straightforward style. I adopted a new tag after I was diverted from this site by internet quirk. How's things in Perth Amboy, Hoboken and Teaneck? Have you seen Morty lately? Those were the days.

The Greek reply to Ty Game on Jun 14 at 13:55

All is well my friend thank you for asking.

All these years later and we still can't field a winning team.

We are still in need of a roster miracle.

Charlie H on Jun 14 at 9:15

Ben Warley, wow. There's a name from the past.

Half the players in the NBA would improve their FG% by 10 points if they shot them underhanded. Will never understand why Wilt changed to that overhand fling.

Tend to agree; softer shot when done right. Macho issue, one reason for disappearance.

Schayes (.849), Gambee (.822), Costello (.841), Kerr (.723), Dierking (.697) - original 76ers who used underhand style. [career numbers]

Yeah, Wilt (.511) had more success with that style than his 'get it over with' one-handed stab, from 17 ft. or off-to-right-side angle. Shot it better (.619) at Kansas.

Guy Rodgers (.721) used it. And the greatest practitioner was Rick Barry (.893).

I am definitely Iguodala'd out. Just want some degree of closure. Trade him (or not), sell the team and make a draft pick. I feel like this has already been too long of an off-season, and we are just getting started. And we have not even hunkered down into lock-out mode.

It seemed like some wheels were turning last week, but now we are back in waiting mode. And in terms of Iguudala, the debate has reached McNabb proportions, to where everything that can be said has been said, and its time to just do something and move on.

Well if you want closure then a trade is the only option, if they don't move him the debate will continue until he's no longer a sixer.

Yeah, trade him. I hope it's not a bad trade, I doubt it will be one that will be "good", but I'm sick of the cloud hanging over the team. IMO its gone beyond whether trading him is the right decision. I just want to focus on something else. There are other positives with this team.

I wonder if the franchise and the team cares as much about it as the fans. Somehow I doubt it.

It's really part of a bigger issue- that the team should care about.

The team needs to have a big time star. Think Wilt, Dr. J, Moses, Barkley and AI. This would not only make the fans happy and drive up interest- it would likely put them in a better position to build a winner. I don't think you get that cornerstone in an Iguodala trade (no to Ellis IMO), but the negativity directed towards Iguodala grows from frustration over not having a real star level performer.

If this team was winning 50+ games and Iguodala was a "Robin" then this would not even be an issue.

Winning will make the fans happy and drive up interest

I think teams who win with stars draw better than teams that win with solid, deep line-ups.

Ah but both of those have winning in common.

I'm curios to see how memphis does next season early in the season - that will be a nice test case cause they don't have any real 'stars' but made quite an impression in the playoffs

Memphis will be an interesting example. They won 48 games and finished 27th in attendance.

Well I know they had lousy regular season attendance, I was just thinking of their playoff performance and how they took out the spurs. The regular season didn't even factor into it, just the playoff performance (and attendance) of the Grizzlies. If the spurs had taken em out I wouldn't have thought they'd be interesting :)

The Pistons were number 1 in attendance from 2002 to 2009

I lived in the Detroit suburbs that time, so I know the fanbase there is strong.

It's one thing to be making the Finals and winning titles. Its another thing to be a 50 win team. Any team that makes the Finals will sell out for a few years. But does an Atlanta or Memphis level team sell out if they only make the 2nd round?

I think they do if they have an AI or Derrick Rose (unless the team is clearly in decline.) I don't think they do with Z-Bo and Joe Johnson.

jkay reply to tk76 on Jun 14 at 11:29

well I definitely feel you on your initial comment.
We talk draft, the conversation shifts to Iguodala trade. We talk team evaluation, it turns toi Iguodala value talk. We talk Front Office and media, it turns into Iguodala perception.
We talk Jrue and Turner, it becomes Iguodala compatibility.
We talk team sale, it turns to Iguodala's draw and appeal.

I am seeing Andre Iguodalas in my sleep. It feels like it's the same arguments rehashed with the same stances and rationale, that never budge.
The season can't start soon enough.

Damn, the lock out is just going to piss you off ain't it?

If the team gets some closure to the Iguodala story without taking on some monster contract (like Hedo) and makes a decent pick- I can deal with a lock-out. At least I'll be looking forward to seeing the team and having some fresh discussion as opposed to the stale Iguodala talk.

I'm not complaining about posters. It's more that this thing has dragged on now for too many years.

That's how it usually happens.

In Philadlephia more often than not it is how it happens because the fanbase is quicker to turn on a player. I think if there wasn't such hatred (I know tk said it isn't the fans - but it is) towards Iguodala from the fans and the radio heads it wouldn't be so bad.

the perceived 'leader' (see the word perceived there) always bears the brunt of the blame, whether he should or not, and for some reason on comcast teams, crappy GM's hardly EVER are blamed for building incomplete rosters and get chance after chance when they should have been fired.

I hope that the Iguodala trade isn't rushed into just to get it done by the deadline of the CBA, if the sixers make it obvious that they 'have' to get it done, they will get shafted

emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jun 14 at 12:09

Most likely they will get the shaft twice. I am sure Thad's agent is loving the fact that it seems like Andre will be gone. If I am thinking right that might give Thad some real leverage and increase the chance that he might get signed to a "bad" contract.

Well, I'm not sure how trading a great all around basketball player for a one dimensional tweener bench player should be connected, but if it is - the sixers are worse off in the front office than i thought

See, this is what I don't get.

Everyones focused on whether or not Iguodala gets moved while I think the bigger more important issue is whether or not the team gets sold and if they do what kind of owners are the sixers getting stuck with.

To me that's hella more important

I'm assuming that is all but a done deal.

As I said, nothings a done deal until, you know, it's done. If it were all but a done deal, crossing the i's crossing the t's - we'd hear more.

I think when something 'secret' like that becomes public, it makes it harder to get done, and leads to others stepping up, I wouldn't be surprised to find out comcast leaked the info to get more bidders and hike up the price.

jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 14 at 12:13

Nobody had heard a peep about it. Not even a rumor that they might even be up for sale. No way this just started now.

I didn't say it just started now, in fact if you read any of the articles, it's obvious it didn't start now.

But it's not FINISHED yet, and once something like this becomes public more people might come out of the woodwork. If it was private for so long WHY did it become public? Something like this 'suddenly' becomes public usually because it's to the advantage of one side or the other that it becomes public. Who benefits more from a sale becoming public? Usually the seller, so EVERYONE knows it's for sale.

Think back to the Deron Williams trade, the jazz ran into the nets - the nets joked about deron williams and the jazz said yes. You don't think The jazz could have made a better deal for deron williams if all 29 teams knew he was avialable? They wanted to avoid the 'mess' of carmelo (and probably dwight) and thus screwed themselves in the return. It was a stupid business decision in my opinion. Same thing with a sale of this size, if there are buyers out there who would bid higher but didn't knw - you 'leak' the story and then they come out of the woodwork.

Deal might still go through, but if it were 'close to finished' as the reports said (almost a week ago) why isn't it finished yet? It's not close or it would have been done.

Kyle reply to GoSixers on Jun 14 at 12:06

I agree with this. I'm a lot more interested on what impact the sale of the team makes at this moment.

Unfortunately, there isn't much to discuss because there is so much unknown.

The rumored Iguodala trades are able to be discussed.

I wouldn't be heart broken if we move Iguodala and take our shot with Holiday and Turner running the show. Basically, we are currently hoping that they pan out and can become some bonafide studs in this league. Iguodala is a great all around player, stat sheet stuffer, exciting, and full of effort. That's is also what makes him an attractive player to trade.

jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 14 at 12:07

yeah, sad thing is, the NFL's actually has a better chance of being settled than the NBA's. Especially after all those new free agent contracts from last year.

Well there's a lot of reasons the NFL has a better chance of being settled.

1. The differences aren't fundamental - they just are fighting over an amount (a billion but still it's just a NUMBER) - the NBA wants fundamental change, they want to overhaul their system intensely.

2. The NFL Players union has always been run more intelligently than the NBA players uniion.

3. No offense to the NBA, but the amount of people who will be upset at an NFL missing games versus the NBA is huge. There's more to lose in an NFL lock out and missed games

4. The NFL Commissioner isn't out to break the players, I feel the NBA is

jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 14 at 12:18

#3's a biggie. So much money in football, for everyone - players, TV, apparel, advertising, tickets,gambling...
Even the fan popularity is enough to make a dent - the other day, I think some ESPN radio callers wanted Obama to call in the National Guard to put and end to this.

I don't know about that. The NFL is the only league of the 4 major sports that doesn't have guaranteed contracts and doesn't insure their brain damaged veterans.

Except there is guaranteed money in the NFL - a LOT of it - if you don't think so - pay attention to how contracts are worded.

As for the veterans thing, ALL LEAGUES treat their vets terribly.

THe problem, truly, is that the NFL should be illegal, pure and simple, its' organized violence, it's modern day galidaitors adn the body isn't meant to endure that, but it entertains, and as the man said ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED

Playing football is a stupid decision, you will endure more pain than the human body probably should, and you will have problems when you're older.

And the NFL is making strides to handle that WITHOUT needing to renegotiate. In baseball, to test for ILLEGAL DRUGS you need to have contentuous negotiations

In the NBA the players fought to have MARIJUANA TESTING excluded from the CBA

5. In terms of year to year cost of operations many NBA teams lose money- while every NFL team makes tons of cash. So it wil take money out of owners pockets if they miss NFL games. Not the case for many in the NBA.

For many owners the only time they make money is if they sell the team. And no doubt their franchises will jump in value if the get the players to cave.

Actually not evey team makes 'gobs and gobs' of money in the NFL - and there is a schism (ignored) between large market owners who have to contribute more than small market owners interms of the revenue sharing.

Why should a team like the eagles, or cowboys, or colts that is a big tv draw share equally with a team like jacksonville or the lions. It's not talked about a lot but there are 'two' owner camps.

I think the NBA over states their losses and much of their losses are their own damn faults - how many truly terrible contracts are there in the nba, and how many teams that are losing money are losing money BECAUSE of those terrible contracts given out to mediocre teams.

Non guaranteed contracts will make the nba better

The NBA also has more luck involved. Look at how Chicago and Cleveland (for a while) where impacted by winning the lottery. And an injury can sink a team for years.

While in the NFL, bringing in a new coach/GM and you can go last to 1st in 1-2 years.

There's a lot of luck involved in the NFL - but you can clean up mistakes.

Luck - drafting Tom Brady
Unluck - Jamarcus Russell (but then again the raiders just are dead at the head)
Luck - LeSean McCoy
Unluck - Alex Smith

Drafting in the NFL is much more intelligent than in the nba

How is drafting a good RB in the 2nd round who fits perfectly in your system luck?

Ok - maybe not luck - but well researched :)

jkay reply to GoSixers on Jun 14 at 13:29

small sample size.
in the NFL you can amass an army of very good players and defeat a superstar led team (Brady, Manning) any day. Ask the Steelers. Drafting is a science. Luck? No sir.
You got 7 picks to try your luck with.

If you don't think draft is partially luck - then you're kidding yourself. There's a lot more research in the NFL draft, the NFL runs their draft much better than the NBA, it's pathetic really, but there's ALWAYS an element of luck involved in any draft.

People might not be old enough to remember this, but PEyton Manning was not a 'consensus' #1, a lot of people thought Ryan Leaf would be better, and that many teams would have taken him #1.

There's intelligence involved in drafting but there's ALWAYS some luck involved

Yes, but in the NFL you are more likely to get someone to contribute to the team in the draft. A first round is expected to start, a 2nd round pick is expected to be a backup and play meaningful minutes and a 3rd round pick is expected to play STs. Heck 4th rounders are expected to make the team. In the NBA, you're lucky if the #26 pick can make the rotation. There is so much available talent in the NFL free agency and the draft. Any team with a good GM and owner willing to spend can make playoffs. I think basketball is a much harder sport to play than football. It's a lot harder to teach a person to move while dribbling a basketball and shoot jumpers than it is to have him run in a straight line and catch a football. Football is more execution while Basketball is more skill.

You think basketball is harder than football?

I think you're nuts, i think the exact opposite. Ever see an NFL playbook, ever see the 'ballet' of the offensive line that has to be executed on EVERY play.

There's MUCH MORE work involved in football, much more INTELLIGENCE needed in football, basketball is more instinctive and devolving into only being about athleticism, and the nba draft reflects that, which is why there are so many busts.

People keep making excuses for why the nba draft has so many busts, but why do some teams continually find good players late in the draft while others don't?

Was reading about thehistory of the 16th pick. so I did a little research. I came up with a list of players drafted from pick 16-30. I looked for players who were at least rotation type plaers or better. Aprox 15 min.played per game, atleast 6 points per game to go along with either good 3pt%, good rebounding rate ect. I also put some players on the list that were a bit more subjective like having a couple of good playoff rounds.
Josh Smith, JR Smith, Dorell Wright, Jameer Nelson, Delonte West, Kevin Martin, Sasha Vujacic, Beno Udrih.
8 out of 15

Danny Granger, Hakim Warrick, Nate Robinson,
Jarrett Jack, Francisco Garcia, Jason Maxiell,
Linas Kleiza, David Lee.
8 out of 15

Rajon Rondo, Kyle Lowery, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar.
4 out of 15

Nick Young, Marco Belinelli, Jared Dudley,
Wilson Chandler, Aaron Brooks, Arron Afflalo,
Rudy Fernandez.
7 out of 15

Mo Speights, Roy Hibbert, Javalle McGee, J.J. Hickson, Ryan Anderson, Courtney Lee, Serge Ibaka, Nicolas Batum, George Hill, Darrell Arthur.
10 out of 15

Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Daren Collison, Omri Casspi, Rodrique Beaubois, Taj Gibson, Toney Douglas.
7 out of 10

emtmess reply to tk76 on Jun 14 at 14:42

Thanks tk76 really enjoyed the articles.

emtmess reply to emtmess on Jun 14 at 13:39

If I am not mistaken 4 of the point gaurds on the list played for playoff teams and it would have been 5 if one had not been injured.

emtmess reply to emtmess on Jun 14 at 14:03

in 2009 that is sorry.

Check out the Biyombo piece in the reading list. Thanks to Ryan F for sending it my way.

So who do you think his NBA comparison is?

Spencer Flaws reply to Stan on Jun 14 at 16:58

Ben wallace

The most common I've heard are Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman. On both sides of the ball, which isn't a glowing review of his offense, obviously.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 20:38

I'm an advocate of trading Iggy if the right deal comes along or if he's not on board with being here, but wow it'd be nice to see what this defense would look like with Dre, an improved ET (you'd hope), Jrue's next step of natural progression defensively, and Biyombo being a real shot blocking threat on the interior.

If Biyombo's defensive merits are legit, you'd think Doug would have a chance of getting this squad into the top 4-5 defenses in the league.

If he's all he's cracked up to be, they could be the best defensive team in the league within 2 years.

Does anyone know where I can go to get stats on interior defense?

Out of iggy's 7 seasons, where does his 2010-2011 season rank?

Defensively and playmaking, his best. Scoring, his worst.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 16:48

and health wise his worst

AI9 - some advanced stats:

DRtg (estimate of pts allowed per 100 possessions) 104, 2nd best of his 7 seasons.

DWS (estimate of # of wins contributed by player due to his defense) 3.4, only 5th best of his 7 seasons.

TRB% (estimate of % of available rbs player grabbed while on floor) 9.0; middling (D-increase, O-decrease), 4th of best of his 7 seasons.

Basketball-reference.com numbers on a scale. Could it be he did his best stoppage work on tougher individual assignments (that Brian chronicled) and sloughed off on some of lesser lights? DWS rank surprises in his year of 2nd team D recognition.

DWS is a cumulative stat, fewest minutes of his career = lower total. If you're gauging his defensive play, using DWS, you should adjust for minutes, or better yet, use DWS per 48 minutes. Here are his career numbers:

05: .071
06: .040
07: .056
08: .065
09: .051
10: .042
11: .066
Career: .055

DWS are also a product of team defensive rating. Considering he was saddled with Hawes for so many minutes, I'd say this was his most impressive season by this metric.

Wasn't aware DWS was cumulative. '11 Per 48 number, viewed comparitively, correlates better with his strong defensive performance.

As an indicator, such a number can be helpful in assessing, but can't bank too much on it - too many variables inside.

Thanks for the explanation, Brian.

Tom Moore on Jun 14 at 16:42

Sixers to take longer look at Markieff Morris from Kansas, Tyler Honeycutt of UCLA on Wednesday:


Those are pretty much the only two guys who are realistic for #16 that they've had in, makes sense. I'd prefer Honeycutt of the two.

Brian, not a Nikola Vucevic fan? He was in last week.

deepsixersuede reply to RockP on Jun 14 at 18:13

I am glad they are bringing in Xavier Silas, his father was a great player till he had some knee issues. James, nicknamed "captain late" for his late game A.B.A. heroics was lightning quick in his prime, but does his son have the same game?

Brian, I am curious, why do you like Honeycutt? Morris could be a solid pro and Vucevic is probably an upgrade on Hawes from the start, though he won't be able to defend much better.

Cin reply to RockP on Jun 14 at 18:18

Similar strengths as Hawes (size, spacing). If he's not athletic, can't block shots, or isn't a tenacious rebounder (copped) then he isn't a worthy addition.

I didn't expect anyone here to prefer Honeycutt over anyone much less as a potential Sixer. I'd be interested to hear your take on him and how he'd fit.

Hawes has strengths?

Dude can board, shoot, and use his body. Not a superstar, but a solid NBA center. At worst, one of the better backup centers in the NBA. Not a top-flight starter obviously, but worth keeping around.

Cin reply to stoned81 on Jun 14 at 18:42

Don't forget his fiery passion.

So true. One reason I'm a huge fan of the dude is his attitude. He brings the mean face, he loves being in Philly, and the game is more fun to watch with him on the floor. I get more excited about a Hawes slam than anything else during the game!

Ok, at this point you've either jumped the shark or you really believe this comment - i can't decide which is worse.

yeah, he's no better than speights

Tray reply to stoned81 on Jun 14 at 19:41

He's an average rebounder for his position who can make jump shots. But offensively he's one of the worst centers in basketball. Among centers who play 10 minutes or more a game, Hawes is the 9th worst in TS%. And he's a bad defender.

Cin reply to Cin on Jun 14 at 18:37

Also, how the hell does he average two blocks with a 6'9" wingspan.

Well, you don't block shots with your hands out to your side.

His Max Ver w/reach was second among SG's/SF's at 11'10".

He has a fairly unique physical profile, and has developed into a good off the ball scorer. He got hampered by a few injuries at ~December of last year (check his stats before then), which has probably dropped his stock.

I think he could be a good fit with Turner/Jrue, and I think he has lottery type talent. Whether or not he is assertive enough to ever reach that talent is a very legitimate question, though.

deepsixersuede reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 14 at 19:01

Derek, if Montiejunis is there at #16 would you take him for the sixers?

Depends on who else is available :)

I didn't like Moti at all when we were talking pick #6-7 last year. At 16, he may be worth a gamble. I don't particularly have a ton of confidence, but that's why he's available at 16.

"Well, you don't block shots with your hands out to your side."


I'd go for Morris, but I'd prefer Vuvecic over Honeycutt. Not for any reason other than he's a dude with "Honey" in his name. I've never seen either Vuvecic or Honeycutt play.

Good wing defender with good size. Sorry, misspoke above, forgot they had Singleton in. He's the guy I want at 16 if Biyombo is off the board.

Don't think Morris or any of the other available bigs in that range are really going to be defensive players in the NBA, also doubt any of them are really starters going forward. If I'm not getting a long term starter at the four or five, or even a guy with a chance of reaching that level, then I want wing defenders. I just see that as being necessary to win, especially in the East.

Not a Tobias Harris fan?

Is he a legit three? Meaning, can he guard threes?

Question is if he is athletic enough to guard the 3. His athletic #s were very good at the combine.

Well, if there's a question about his ability to defend threes, then I'm not really that interested. Although I guess there's a question of whether Honeycutt is strong enough. BB and Singelton are my guys right now at #16.

deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 22:02

They may get a wing defender at #50. D. Liggins [Kentucky] and D.Lighty [Ohio St.] will be on the board than.

I think Markief Morris will be a physical defender but he won't be a shotblocker. His brother seems to be mostly an offensive player. I would rather draft offense if it keeps Iggy here, if they feel an upgrade offensively is needed.

Any p.f. or center that allows the Jrue/Turner/ Iggy trio to play together would be my objective, that's why Montiejunis and Vecucic intrigue me.

Is Moti really going to stretch the floor? His shooting numbers certainly aren't impressive.

No. At least, not yet.

But he is ball friendly.

deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 22:28

Looking at the available players at #16, he seems the most capable of possibly being a 20 ppg. guy to me. I keep reading Jordan Hamilton is not real athletic and Marshon Brooks takes Lou's type of shots. If offensive upside is what they want, he may fit the bill.

But they tried the same approach with Spieghts, who had red flags like Montie so they may have learned from that and get conservative. Morris and Singleton would help defensively but I think Singleton doesn't get past Houston.

Derek, it seems Vecucic moved up after his measurements at the workouts. Is he any more than a backup center in the league?

Marty reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 23:22

My dream is to somehow walk away from the draft with Biyombo and Singleton, and I would sacrifice Iguoudala to do it.

eddies' heady's reply to Tom Moore on Jun 14 at 22:17

I want no part of Honeycutt, none. Please no.

Talent or head ?

or school?

eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 14 at 23:25

Head mostly. But I just don't see the talent you're speaking of that's lottery worthy, not that we haven't disagreed before. His frame is too frail also (not a biggie) and can't really pinpoint it, but just don't like his game at all. Don't see it translating.

Depends what we're talking about. Talent wise, I have no doubt he has the talent to be an off the ball role player. When I say lottery talent, it's in context of this draft. I don't ever see him being a focal point offensively or a great isolation player.

Head concerns we probably share.

I also think (again, if the mental concerns weren't there) that his skill set makes him more valuable to the Sixers (and more likely to reach on him) than some other teams.

Skill wise, based on this teams needs, I like him better than Jordan Hamilton.

eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 14 at 23:38

wow, really? Is one of the reasons you like him better than Hamilton just because of Honeycutt's ability to D up better? Because I hope you're seeing something skill wise that I'm missing.

I would assume when you say 'this teams needs' you are referring to shooting, no? He can't be a better scorer/shooter than Hamilton in your opinion?

Yeah. I think Honeycutt has the potential (not there yet) to be an above average defender, whereas I think Hamilton's always going to be a liability, to the point where I'm concerned of his ability to get even 6th man minutes. That's the main reason, if I wasn't concerned about Honeycutt's mental makeup, that I would like him as a prospect over Hamilton.

I also think he's slightly better coming off screens, and (when in his proper role as a complementary scorer), better at taking quality shots.

Again, that's not saying I'd necessarily take him over Hamilton (although I may, because of my major concerns of Hamilton's defense), because of how uncertain I am of Honeycutt reaching his potential.

It really is a pick your poison with those two, though.

eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 14 at 23:53

Interesting, though Hamilton's defense concerns me greatly too. I just think he's a heck of a scorer and can get his own shot. Not sure about Hamilton's 3 pt range though, don't remember him taking alot of 3's last year, just more of a mid-range game from what I can remember (no access to tape/video or anything).

Ugh, hate to hear you say he may not even be worthy of 6th man minutes because I was thinking the kid would eventually be a starter, sooner than not.

Maybe I'm overstating his defensive concerns. He definitely has starter level offensive talent. His defensive fundamentals just left me worried every time I watched him. Perhaps Doug can get through to him.

We aren't talking about the lottery, though.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 14 at 23:40

Yeah I know. Was just referring to where DB said above that he had lottery-type talent.

Just read your Draft Express writeup. Very good job. The video breakdowns are great too.

He's interesting. I only saw him play a few times, against Nova in November (wasn't great), against Kansas (was incredible, his best game), against St John's (didn't shoot well, but got to the line a ton, but I don't really remember what he did and had to look at the box score) and in the tourney against Florida (struggled, UCLA wins that game if he plays better). On a side note, I think UCLA should have been a little better. I know they were young, but Josh Smith is a monster already, even with the conditioning problems and Reeves Nelson is a gamer and a matchup nightmare at that level.

I like his talent, and think he's an excellent fit next to Turner and Jrue IF he's a solid NBA three point shooter. He already has played for one of the premier man-to-man defense coaches in the country, which I like. Certainly guys like Afflalo and Jrue have been helped at least on that end by Howland. I also don't really care if he's not a good 1 on 1 player, because the two guys we are banking on are strong in that spot. I like the idea of that group's defensive potential. Good size and quickness at every position.

To me, it comes down to what he can do shooting the NBA three.

eddies' heady's on Jun 14 at 23:33

I believe this - there's going to be some interesting players that will still be available when our turn comes to pick at #16. Multiple guys that the community has mentioned to like and not like. Should strike up some good conversation the last week of June and half of July around here. Lawson/Holiday proportions? Or Turner/big man proportions? Probably not, but definitely debate worthy.

So much better to discuss that than Andre Iguodala, no? ;)

Fo' sho.

eddies' heady's on Jun 14 at 23:48

I fully take into account you guys opinions (Brian, Derek, and Rich) on players each year entering the league because I have always loved college ball and the prospect of who the Sixers may end up with. With that said, you guys are making me really depressed since you all seem to have somewhat of a liking to this Honeycutt kid. There's no way I could live with us taking him - just a heads up.

Dag, can't believe what I'm reading tonight. Or hope I don't have to believe it in a few weeks is more like it :)

I'd much rather have a big FWIW. He kind of fits the three position of what I'm looking for, that's all.

The way I'm viewing the Sixers' needs this draft this draft is counting down from 5. That's why I don't mind Honeycutt, but I have no idea where I'd rank him.

I wonder who Derek or Brian would want more: Singleton or Honeycutt? Singleton seems like a sure thing defensively, and Honeycutt has probably the higher two-way ceiling, right?

eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jun 14 at 23:59

Singleton, all the way for me. I wouldn't be so sure about saying Honeycutt has the higher offensive ceiling. Singleton has range on his shot, and I think he is undervalued on that end. He can post up some too (think he did randomly at FSU).

Oh, I don't love Honeycutt. I like him quite a bit as a gamble in the mid tgo late 20's, and think part of his inconsistency was him battling nagging injuries. But I have major concerns about him and think he would be a reach at 16.

Of the two, I'd take Singleton.

One other thing for anyone else who follows Lou Williams on Twitter, Is he partying every night? I often wonder if he doesn't work that hard on his game in the offseason.

He blocked me a long time ago. I did watch that horrible video he posted yesterday, though. I'll never get those 11 minutes back.

Rich reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 0:37

Just saw that. At least he is playing at Belfield. You'd be hard-pressed not to find a pretty good run there, and the Rankin League is pretty good.

To be honest though, I guess there's not a whole lot more skill development Lou could do, outside of maybe getting up a few jumpers. He might be one of the few guys that just needs to stay in shape and play.

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