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Elton Brand: Prediction vs. Performance

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deepsixersuede on Jun 16 at 7:40
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I hope however they configure the roster that Elton doesns't have to play center and his minutes can go down slightly.

I am definitely pro limiting his minutes and playing him only at PF. I feel like, even after Brand's contract ends if he is still on the team he can contribute in a limited role off the bench. That's of course only if the team is going to contend for a championship in the next 5-6 years...

I think unless the Sixers get a legit center and a legit backup behind him, Brand will see time at the five this year. Hawes is useless and Collins will go back to the EB/TY front court (if Thad's still here) considering it was his best lineup last year.

With all the focus on Andre Iguodala the sixers desperate front court needs are embarassingly ignored in my opinion.

Spencer Hawes is terrible (no really, he is, compare him and Speights this year, adjust for minutes played, and Hawes really isn't that much better than Speights, and who thinks speights should start, raise your hands)

THe front court back ups are

1. A short power forward who can score but do little else
2. Speights - I mean come on
3. Brackins was so bad this year in practice that even when Speights was in the Doughouse he couldn't get minutes.
4. Everyones Paw-Paw Tony Battie

Elton Brand is old, and not getting younger, the sixers will either need to conserve his minutes or just run him into the ground so he's 'done' sooner. They have starting power forward in waiting, they have no one on their bench for a front court that would even start on another team and, seriously, no a good team, do Hawes and Speights even move beyond 8th man, at best?

I've seen numerous trade ideas that all focus on the back court when the front court is a much bigger on court issues for the sixers.

Sad, but true. The Sixrs post Brand future in the frontcourt is a scary proposition right now. They are several players away from even a serviceable PF/C rotation moving forward.

Not that anyone really cares but I have been swayed to the pro biyombo side, i think of him as a sam dalembert with a motor, drive, work ethic, and dedication to getting better.

You 'hear' this guy talk in the interviews and you feel that whatever upside he has, he's going to reach.

Reading his story reminds me of a lot of the things I liked about Luol Deng in that year - which had little to do with his on the court game.

The guy's personality has reminded me of Deke from day 1. He is totally focused on being a dominant defender and is comfortable in his skin. He is not trying to be a guard, and rap star or a man for all seasons. He's focused on his job as a professional basketball player and playing to his strengths.

This was clear back at his Nike Hoop Summit interviews- and that's what had me hyped more than his break out triple double. "I do the things I know, and the things I don't know I don't do." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_SB-ZKAhGM&playnext=1&list=PL9699ABD4C0D10B6D 1:52

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Tray reply to tk76 on Jun 16 at 21:37
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You know, not to be flip, but most players who try to be rap stars either (a) are really good or (b) live up to their potential. Players with substantial rap careers include Shaq, Iverson, Kobe (he recorded a whole album, though he wisely canned it), Lou Williams, Troy Hudson, Ron Artest, Rasheed Wallace, Chris Webber. The standard line on players who rap is that they're too busy with "other things" and underachieve on the court. And I can see that with Wallace and Shaq. But for the most part these are players who are really great, or who did about all they could do. No one ever thought Artest, Williams or Hudson would have as good careers as they did, or have.

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 13:17
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Exactly what I think about after reading abut this guy. Sam with intensity and the ability to recognize his limitations. Getting the feeling he is going to be a monster.

Everyone keeps talkinga bout his limitations, and he has them, but the best part i see is not his intensity so much as his seeming love for basketball, dedication to get better.

Knowing what you don't know is great, WORKING to get better at it is even better

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 13:29
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Agreed. Although I'd be more than happy to have a guy that will get Camby like rebounding numbers and not be able to do anything more than catch a lob offensively.

If he could make the impact on the defensive end and on the glass that people are assuming, myself included, and contribute offensively...well, that'd be more than swell.

I don't see any possible way Biyombo falls to 16. I believe he is a lottery pick for sure and is most likely going to go in the top 10. We are far from the only people that like the kid.

Freak athlete/build + Great motor/attitude + Good Defensive/Rebounding instincts = top 10 pick to me for sure.

But hey, im only a man...in a cube...typing on a keyboard.

forgot to add + young/high upside/may not be done growing to the equation. I would be extremely suprised if he makes it out of the top 10 and would not be shocked if he goes in the 6-8 range.

I think right now it might even be a game of maneuvering, lower picking teams are bad mouthing him hoping that he slips to them.

The ford article and the nba.com article are what swayed me, just reading how the kid comports himself and his drive.

Could you imagine sam dalembert if he had a motor, a work ethic, dedication, and love of basketball.

http://215sports.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/sammy_frohawk.gif?w=410&h=291
We just need to get Biyombo's hair to light up in multiple colors and we would be there.

Anyone else find it odd how a week ago there were daily national stories about the Sixers (Iguodala runmors and ownership.) Now we are lucky to find a puff piece about Morris and his "Philly toughness."

Yeah, and those stories piss me off. Generally, I consider being from the Philly area as a negative because the local media drools over them and then I have to sift through that to see if the player is actually worthwhile. It's even worse when you start hearing from people who saw them in high school.

Philly HS talents worth the drool: Kobe Bryant (Lower Merion), Jameer Nelson (Chester), Hakim Warrick (Friends Central), Kyle Lowry (Cardinal Dougherty), Tyreke Evans (American Christian).

Two of those schools aren't in Philadlephia, just saying.

Actually four of them aren't. Only Cardinal Dougherty has true street cred. But who's countin'?

Someone who graduated from Lower Merion, wanted to go to Central (magnet) and who thinks calling Villanova a 'philly' school is an affront to the city

Huh? What are you talkin' about? The exchange was on 5 NBA players and their HSs, with your incorrect geography correction. And then you reply with some crap about Villanova. Maybe coffee'll help.

I'm sorry that you don't see the connection, I do, and really, that's all that matters to me. If you can't see how the two are connected, that's really not my problem.

Please return to yelling at the kids on your lawn

And please return to accuracy and sense in your conveyances.

And get off my lawn!!

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 13:47
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Three of them actually. I know they aren't all in Philly, but they are a huge part of the basketball culture, Chester specifically. Plus, if Philly expanded like some of these other "cities" that have passed us in population (Houston, Phoenix), Lower Merion would be a part of the city and Chester might too. The media loves college and high school basketball so they try to make it into pro hoops. That's alright by me, as long as the Sixers aren't blinded by the kids, which they aren't.

I do enjoy seeing those players in the NBA because I saw them play in high school though. I always followed the Morris Twins because I played against them in the Sonny Hill League when I was a freshman in high school. I bet it's not unlike Jimmer in Utah.

I went to Lower Merion.

Lower Merion is NOT a basketball school. It's not a football school. Kobe was a fluke great player.

I'm not being racist, I'm just going to state fact.

Lower Merion is a primarily jewish school district, probably 95% white jewish kids. The school is closed on rosh hashannah and yom kippur because they know most kids won't be there anyway. The primary sports are soccer in the fall and lacrosse in the spring.

Yes, Kobe was a great basketball player at Lower Merion, but Lower Merion does not have a great basketball tradition, compared to the soccer tradition or the lacrosse tradition.

The only football game that matters is the one against Radnor (which according to trivial pursuit was the longest running public high school football rivalry in the country I'm told - though that might be apocryphal) because if Lower Merion wins the day before thanksgiving is a half day instead of a full day.

The two most 'famous' alumni from Lower Merion high school that most people know are an accused rapist athlete who stalked brandy and the douche bag secretary of interior who said 'i'm in charge'

It's much better than that :)

(When they threatened redistricting my sister considered moving cause my niece would have gone to harriton instead of lower merion)

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 14:12
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Hah, I live in Lower Merion too and I see what you are saying about it's long-term status.

Still, LM is very much a basketball school now. There's no way around that. It has been one of the Top 5 programs in the area since Kobe was there. They really haven't stopped being good, and a lot of terrific players have come from there. That's their most popular sport now.

Wow - that's impressive - i always though of kobe as a one hit wonder cause i never heard any thing more (i do pay attention to the area but 3,000 miles away i can't get the main line times and there web site kind of sucks).

Intersting to see the evolution - but the football game still matters right? Would suck to see that tradition die

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 14:18
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Yeah I think the football game still matters, but they still are bad at that sport. All the athletes play hoops.

Oh they were never GOOD at football - no one cared either - just cared about the half day :)

Like I said - soccer, and lacrosse.

Winter just was time between soccer and lacrosse at the time :)

Four. Lower Merion HS & Friends Cental, Montgomery County; Chester HS & American Christian, Delaware County.

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Rich reply to Ty Game on Jun 16 at 14:16
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I forgot Friends Central is in Wynnewood. It's literally right across the street.

Other than Kobe, this list of recent players pales in comparison to the talent Philly put out a generation or two ago.

Oh? Foundation? Name me another 10 yr swatch that had 5 prominent NBA players, post-Chamberlain.

Are we talking about sewing swatches or the cheesy watches that were big in the 80s?

(My mom was a freshman when wilt was a senior)

I was not talking post Wilt. Just saying Wilt, Monroe, Gola, Arizin and Hawkins were a cut above the more recent players with the exception of Kobe.

For most people - if it didn't happen in their lifetime it's not relevant. Philadelphia basketball is no longer what it once was, BASKETBALL is no longer what it once was but it's so long ago that people just don't bother to accept it may have been better

My mom saw wilt play in high school - i liked hearing that story - super cool

But I guess that was as 15 year stretch. Did not know there was a 10 year term limit on Philly basketball.

Hawkins? Add Wayne Hightower, Guy Rodgers, Wally/Wali Jones to the 60s group.

Yeah, I knew I was leaving some out. So that's a 50's and a 60's group that were each pretty great.

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Charlie H reply to Ty Game on Jun 16 at 17:38
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Rasheed Wallace, Aaron McKie, Eddie Jones (?)

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Tray reply to Ty Game on Jun 16 at 21:40
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You didn't mention Rasheed and Wilt. And you might as well mention Henderson if you're going to stoop to Warrick.

Sorry. You missed the theme of my list: current players. Rasheed is retired. Wilt is really retired.

Stoop to Warrick? Hardly. More accomplished than your mention. 6 yr pro, 463 G, 21 min per. 4500 pts, 1900 rbs. .498 FG. Sixers could use him to solve droughts.

Henderson? 2 yrs, just got his feet wet - 111 G, 18 min per; all of 766 pts, 114 A, 78 TO; might pan out nicely (might). At least Silas took off his training wheels.

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Tom Moore on Jun 16 at 13:05
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Video: The Sixers' Courtney Witte on Thursday's workouts of Villanova's Corey Fisher and Corey Stokes:

http://bit.ly/mAfM5S

Tom, can you ask if they have any plans to work out Biyombo? I read he was planning to come over for workouts w/ a couple of teams.

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jun 16 at 13:18
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Let me ask. Was told a first-rounder is coming Sunday and a guy projected higher than Sunday's player is scheduled for Monday.

Sounds like they're trying.

Witte emailed me back: "Just got off phone w his Euro agent and we are in touch ongoing. (We) watched his workout in Treviso over weekend and met with his agent."

If he wont work out for the sixers he must believe he'll be gone by 16

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Steve V reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 20:20
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A bunch of guys declined to work out for the Sixers and other teams in the late teens, I think it was Witte that said "20 guys think they're going top 15"

Correct. But he's working out for the Knicks, who are at No. 17.

But IIRC its common for players to turn down other non-lottery teams but still be willing to work out for the Knicks, because they want the media opportunities that come with New York exposure.

What kind of trade do you think Elton Brand's contract can get us 2012? Plus Brand's contract expires in 2013 not 2012. He's not going to decline his player option

Not sure how you can trade away Brand when the team has no other quality bigs. His one of those players who is much more valuable to his own team than what he would bring back in a trade.

If Brand could bring back assets to build this team going forward, he should be traded. On court impact, yes, the team would be worse off, but the team will be worse off when Iguodala is traded too

I understand and agree with this in general terms- but there reaches a point where your team is so unbalanced that it harms everyone's development. No way Jrue can make the next step as a PG if his big men are limited to Hawes, Speights and Brackins. Brand might not be the perfect compliment, but at least you can run an offense with him on the floor.

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Wilford reply to tk76 on Jun 16 at 13:29
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Even if we wanted to trade him for garbage, what team could afford to take on his 18 million dollar salary in 2012-2013?

Any team that had +/- 25% of 18 million in garbage to return

Agreed 100%. Trading Brand makes no sense. We have no replacement at PF, and we could never get equal talent. I scratch my head every time anyone suggests trading him.

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Tom Moore on Jun 16 at 13:17
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Video: Villanova guards Corey Fisher and Corey Stokes on Thursday's pre-draft workout with the Sixers:

http://bit.ly/lHMxwS

Didn't it used to be DiLeo who talked to the media about the draft? Or was it always Witte?

They used to take turns.

Thanks. As an outsider it seems like DiLeo has a somewhat lower profile than he used to.

Brand is un-tradeable.

So was Gilbert Arenas

and then he wasn't

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Fred reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 14:31
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You can only go parallel with a Brand trade (in terms of contracts)

Chad Ford actually said something sort of positive about Iguodala in his chat today:

Tyrone (Bahamas)

Chad.. ....do you see the sixers trading Iggy to a team in the top three and drafting Kanter?

Chad Ford (1:35 PM)

Iguodala is available ... and if they could get in the Top 3, they would be able to add a big man. I think the Sixers regret passing on Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins in last year's draft. This could help rectify it. I'd have serious interest if I were the Jazz or Cavs. Iguodala is under rated. Warriors and Clippers have also been trying to get him. If the Sixers are at 16, most likely they go big with a guy like Tristan Thompson, Markieff Morris or Nikola Vucevic. Kenneth Faried is also a possibility here.

I think the Sixers regret passing on Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins in last year's draft.

As we all know, those two had amazing seasons that exceeded anyones expectations and they are guaranteed multi all stars

Eh, you know how I feel about Cousins, so that's a non-starter for me. But Favors? I think they'd have a much more clear path going forward right now if they'd taken him rather than Turner. Basically, the future would be about whether he's going to reach his potential, then you could build around Jrue/Favors. With Turner, it's about whether he'll reach his potential, and then whether that guy works w/ Jrue, or Iguodala, or both, or either and will there be enough shooting.

My point was just that I don't think Cousins, or Turner, Or Favors were 'that impressive' in their rookie year that you can decide what anyone is going to be 3-4 years from now.

Now if you say 'they should have drafted for need a bit more' - maybe you're right - maybe they should have looked at the garbage on their roster and said 'hell our front court is one old guy and a bunch of suck' so we'll draft favors (or cousins).

But you can't say with any certainty if you're a rational cautious human being that any of those 3 are busts or hits just yet

Agreed. I don't think it's out of line to say they may feel a bit better about the future right now had they drafted Favors, though. It's all semantics anyway, they took Turner now they need to figure out how to move forward from here.

It may be semantics to you and me but to others it'll be seen as a fact cause 'chad ford said it :)

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Kyle reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 14:36
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It was tough to pass on Turner. I liked Favors as well. And, DeMarcus Cousins has the potential to be a beast in this league. Dude is 6'11'' 270, can't teach that. He's a monster. He's definitely Rasheed Wallace when it comes to attitude. He's young, immature, and fouls a lot. These are all things that can be improved with growth and experience.

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Marty reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 14:40
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Another interesting note from that chat - if Millsap is available, I think the Sixers should seriously consider putting a package together for him. I understand he's similar to Brand and would kind of duplicate what we already have, but he's26 years old and I think could be the long term solution at the 4. If Brand keeps up his play, maybe he can be moved midseason next year.

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Steve V reply to Brian on Jun 16 at 20:24
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It's easy to say we should've drafted Favors now, but if Turner went to the Nets or Wolves he would've had the ball in his hands and probably averaged 16 or 17 on a losing team but no one would be talking about him as a bust . You could also make the case that Fabors would have had a much better year if he was on the Sixers though.

I'm not saying Turner is a bust, I'm just saying things would be much simpler now if they'd drafted Favors.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 16 at 21:43
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I'd honestly feel better about our future if we had Cousins, messy as his rookie season was. He played about a dozen games where he looked like a future All-Star, which is way more than you can say for Turner. I mean, Turner might have played 3 games where he looked like a future legit third option.

How is it possible that Elton Brand's contracts gains value as the years pass, while Iggy's contract loses value as the years pass?

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Ryan F reply to Lance on Jun 16 at 15:25
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Because Brand has one less year. So by middle of next season, he'll only have 1 "full year" left, as Iguodala will still have 2.

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Fred reply to Ryan F on Jun 16 at 16:02
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His contract runs into the 2011-12 and the 2012-13 seasons. He is getting paid 17 million is 2011-12 and 18.1 in 2012-13. I can't imagine how anyone can trade for that contract.

If you are talking next deadline the other team would be picking up only a few months of one year and then have a big expiring contract for the next year. It's much preferrable to have an 18M expiring contract for a guy who plays well than 2 or 3 lousy players who are the books for a combined 18M for several more years (Think Nocioni, Kopono, Songalia types. They combine to make about 16M.)

So right now Brand is untradable except for other combined garbage. But next deadline and next summer his contract starts to have positive value.

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Tom Moore on Jun 16 at 15:37
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Blog: 'Nova guard Corey Fisher optimistic about NBA chances after Sixers workout:

http://bit.ly/jI4vVb

He's probably still hanging on to 15% body fat at least, and still has a terrible attitude that is not conducive to a functional team environment. You can't say DeMarcus Cousins and Rasheed Wallace in the same breath. He won it all, DeMarcus has won 24 professional games.

You've got Antoine Wright coming out of the woodworks to say "Hey, for what it's worth and if you're really curious, the only thing going against the Kings is DeMarcus Cousins."

How many games did Rasheed Wallace win his first year on a crappy ass team?

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Cin reply to GoSixers on Jun 16 at 18:47
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And they sent him packing.

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Kyle reply to Cin on Jun 16 at 19:34
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not even their attitudes? damn, didn't know career accomplishments trump any comparisons.

so by your logic, we essentially can not compare rookies to any other players aside from other rookies, and those who haven't really amounted to shit in the league.

that makes no sense.

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Cin reply to Kyle on Jun 16 at 21:13
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My logic is that if Cousins ever amounts to something it won't be with the Kings so it's not a loss for us to not have drafted him.

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Kyle reply to Cin on Jun 16 at 21:47
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"You can't say DeMarcus Cousins and Rasheed Wallace in the same breath. He won it all, DeMarcus has won 24 professional games."

okay, it's just that trips me up.

LOL!,

google "willie green 33"

Willie Green, Superstar Defender.

Utah is apparently high on Jimmer. Would they consider trading down to pick 16 to get him?

A. There's a chance Jimmer wouldn't last until 16
B. I don't buy Utah being high on Jimmer as anything more than has been reported for months since Jimmer is a mormon, went to BYU and is white

PS - as much as I like Biyombo now - he ain't worth Iguodala

Biyombo's workout video was horrendous - he has a lot of work to do before he even reaches the Dalembert level of offensive capability.

He's a gamble in the lottery, but given how much this draft blows...somebody will take him.

Regarding LM:

I think they've done enough since Kobe, including winning another title and producing a handful of D1 players (Brooks, Williamson, Robbins, etc) to be consider a state basketball power.

They're not the Clippers, but who is?

It's funny how being the Clippers in PA vs LA has exactly the opposite connotation!

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eddies' heady's on Jun 16 at 21:42
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Isn't JaJuan Johnson already everything everyone wants Biyombo to become? Athletic and shot blocker, but strength and offensive weaknesses. Though JaJuan shot 50%, has a mid-range jumper, and was Big Ten player of the year.

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deepsixersuede reply to eddies' heady's on Jun 16 at 21:52
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I actually think Biyombo and Tristan Thompson are closest as far as upside and style of games. But give me Vesely over both of them.

He has zero defensive intensity.

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Kyle reply to Cin on Jun 16 at 22:14
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Yeah, Johnson is a cupcake.

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Cin reply to Cin on Jun 16 at 22:15
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Also isn't a strong rebounder and can't defend the five.

Johnson may be out of the running because they can pinpoint his age, 22 (2/8/89). Duration on earth-wise, Biyombo is Door #3, which is always a tantalizer.

I like Johnson. Can shoot. Athletic. Stayed in school 4 yrs. Improved play each season. I think he's a better candidate for an NBA career than advertised. Interior combat will be an issue though. Room to grow.

Nice athlete but weak lower body and not a freak.

JaJuan Johnson: 38" vertical; standing vertical, 33.5", 3rd best at Chicago camp (top, Iman Shumpert, 36.5"); 15 reps of 185 lb. bench press, 4 off top performance of Derrick Williams. 7'2" wingspan. 9 ft. standing reach. Big 10 POY and DPOY. Pete Newell Big Man Award winner ... some other winners: David West, Okafor, Bogut, Glen Davis, Oden, Beasley, Griffin and Monroe. Indy Star reader comment: "You can do it man, but you must eat spaghetti every day!" (He said the same thing to Camby and Warrick.)


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