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Keeping Up With the Labor Talks

Video: Rod Thorn on figuring out what teams ahead of the Sixers are doing in Thursday's draft and prospects not working out for the team:


Of guys who theoretically could fall to the Sixers at 16 (some are a big stretch) here is my board:

Klay Thompson
Chris Singleton

! tried to include any player who has a shot at slipping. I also assume Iguodala is traded.

Some of the guys I have don't fit the Sixers needs (Kemba, Burks) but you can't pass on a guy if they are that much better than what is out there.

I like your board, I am in agreement with it. But it sounds like the Sixers board has Vucevic right near the top, which is kinda scary. I don't like him much at all, but I'd rather have even him than another wing player. Of course I'm now pretending and will continue to pretend that no Iguodala stuff exists and will therefore remain happy.

My list is similar. Something like:

Marcus (i hate the Morris twins as prospects)

eddies' heady's reply to Xsago on Jun 22 at 9:55

So Vucevic is really good enough to be labeled "falling"? Really?

Yeah, I think most of us are roughly on the same page when it comes to who we want the Sixers to draft... and there is a complete disconnect between what we want and what Thorn/Stefanski seem to want.

IMO those guys are focused on W/L for next year to save their jobs. It does not help them if the Sixers are in better shape 2 years from now but they are without a job. If they can get 45 wins and a good 1st round on a team with a new look (ie no Iguodala) they can try and spin that as incremental progress.

It says something if Vucevic is really the guy they think will move the needle. And that something isn't good.

Scott reply to Xsago on Jun 22 at 11:19

Whats with the Valaciunas love? I'm not against him or anything, but I don't know much about him. Just curious if you have some more info about him that made you put him at the top or if you watched him in games. Some of the international players are just question marks for me.

Teams couldn't run their payrolls up to $100M by stringing exceptions together every year.

The Lakers are the highest according to storytellers at 90 million right now. I can't see this being accurate, it makes almost no changes, really, to the current system in terms of how much money teams can waste.

I don't buy it, the berger report sounds like nothing changes.

Damn it, it's early, that says couldn't, not could.

Ignore everything i said please (give us back the edit function please :( )

Yeah, that's the distinction, but it would all depend on what the hard number is at the top of the spectrum. If it's $90M, then what's the difference? But if it's $70M, then things could get very interesting.

For example, in 2012-2013, the Heat will have $71M committed to the big three, Mike Miller, Haslem and Joel Anthony. The following year, those same 6 players are on the books for $76M. The following year, the big three alone will make $66M.

A hard ceiling in the neighborhood of $70M would absolutely cripple the Heat in a couple of years. Maybe even cripple them to the point where they'd have to move one of the big three to field a full team.

But what happens to the teams currently over the hard ceiling.

If I'm the union i refuse to have players cut - those teams are just frozen - they can't do anything (except maybe sign their draft picks). The number has to be flexible, it can'tt be fixed - i don't suppose we know how to find any NHL experts in the cap?

It's not surprising, Bettman was a Stern disciple.

That's a big issue, I suppose. It might be phased in. I seriously doubt salaries will be rolled back.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that might make some sense instead of rolling back salaries would be to turn all player options into team options on current contracts. That would give teams the flexibility to get under the cap sooner.

This is also where the amnesty clause could come into play.

Except by turning all player options into team options it's the same thing (to the players) as giving up years. giving up money. NO way that happens without a HUGE concession from ownership.

The thing that makes sense is that if there is a hard 'upper limit' is that teams can't do anything until they're under thel imit (at least contract wise) - that way players won't get screwed.

Still no mention in bergers article about a lot of key pieces, i still don't think they'll start the season on time

I don't know about timing. I do believe the players are going to have to make huge concessions. The owners started from a completely unrealistic position, and they've already softened their stance a ton. This $62M target seems reasonable to me and if I was looking for a compromise that didn't involve salary rollbacks to provide opportunities for teams to get under the hard ceiling, I think the amnesty clause and getting rid of player options would be good ways to go about it.

Personally, I think player options should be taken out of the equation going forward.

Going forward maybe - but modifying current contracts is a hellacious thing for unions to allow. Hell MLB gets pissed when ONE player modifies his contract to help out a team, especially if the net total comes down.

I agree that the owners position was untenable from the start, but I think they knew that too but set it there to show the players how serious they are. i think this leak from Berger is 'leaked' by players. It's too player friendly, the owners were talking about a lot of give backs, and I don't see a lot in this, and the NBAPA is a weak union.

Also, expect rookie scale contracts to decrease in value. That's something that doesn't affect current union members, just like the minimum age.

Rookie Contracts are already pretty low, and short, I think that's just silly to even mess with. The second year is important I think because it gives players AND teams more chance to evaluate.

The rule has to appply to euros as well, it has to be 'year based', not college based.

Like the NFL draft is not really based on college it's based on '3 years since you graduated high school'. That's how the NBA should swing it so peopel can't circumvent any rules by going over to europe.

rookie contracts aren't cheap it you're at the top of the draft. Take a look at Turner's contract.

Look at Evan Turners contract, two years guaranteed only, then team options. Then look at lou williams contract. I think a #2 pick in the NBA draft should make as much as Lou williams. I think maybe bring it down a little, but there has to be a 'reward' for being the #1 pick.

Add a forced second year of college and if the NBA invests some money into a better draft process, it's fine.

Eh. I don't really care about the reward for being a top pick, honestly. The draft is a crapshoot and I'm kind of with the owners on this one. Turner doesn't need to be making league average money in his second season and he doesn't need that guaranteed to him prior to stepping foot on the court in the NBA. It's also kind of false to say it's a 2-year deal, only the ultimate bust wouldn't get his 3rd-year option picked up. You're talking about something like a $13M cap hold for him when he hits restricted free agency.

I say make rookies earn their money in their first FA contract. Make them restricted in their fourth year, not fifth, and trim the contracts down.

I think in the scheme of things, rookie deals are insignificant compared to the guaranteedness of everything

The thing is, I doubt think the owners were ever going to get a 45 million dollar hard cap, but Bergers article doesn't mention a lot of very important things.

1. Owners wanted contract adjustments, no mention
2. Revenue Sharing, it's a big imbalance in the NBA and should be addressed

And a minor point

2 years in college

I think that the negotiations are FAR from over

More delusional franchise (of the week)

The T'wolves who think the #2 pick in this draft is worth Gasol OR Bynum?

The Pacers who think Granger is only worth one of the top 5 nba players?

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 11:19

Indiana is more delusional. Granger isn't even a top 5 player in his position.

I think Derrick Williams will be an all-star. Not a superstar. If Pau wasn't on a team that was a contender, this trade would make sense.

I think people want there to be all-stars in a given draft so as not to admit the weakness of the draft.

(PS - I don't think making an all star team is an indicator of great play)

(PS - I don't think making an all star team is an indicator of great play)

Jamaal Magloire disagrees with this statement.

As I heard once on a television show, or movie, and paraphrasing.

Jamal Magloire resembles that remark

emtmess reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 11:42

As does Chris Kaman

On a totally unrelated note - if anyone here knows adobe illustrator well - please say so (I have a file i need to convert fonts to paths and I always forget how)

Chad Ford ESPN Chat 1 pm


Kamanetzky Brothers (Radio Hosts and Lakers bloggers) at 1:30

Chris Sheridan "Knicks" Chat 3 pm

This is kinda of a interesting article on SI.com

Maybe we will get lucky and Vucevic will be gone by 16. Or even worse than drafting him at 16 we move up to get him. I guess that is why this time of year is so much fun.

Please, please, please take him, Morey.

My favorite part of that article this morning is that the cavs were 'angling' to get #1 and #2 in this draft :)

I mean, even to the t'wovles - what the hell do the cavs have worth trading for?:)

I'm sure Brian loved the part where 'all defense' colangelo wanted Biyombo

Rumors abound today about 'big name' point guards being in play to get teams up higher in the draft.

Steve Nash and Tony Parker are floating out there.

I say there's a 50:50 shot all of this is just made up newspaper stuff since there's really only so much jimmer praise to go around - the draft itself is just not as interesting

emtmess reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 11:31

Brian I know a lot of what is put out there as far as who is moving up and down is guess work. But with people reporting that Vucevic, and Markief Morrris moving up someone has to be falling. It does not sound like Bismack is so who do you hope ends up close enough to 16 or at 16 that the Sixers could get?


Boyz N the Hood is vastly over rated, and he hasn't really done anything good since then. Can we get the hughes brothers instead, they at least have some style. (And Menace is 1000x better)

emtmess reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 12:28

I think him or Tobias Harris. IMO and of course I could be very wrong but both would make it easier to not overpay Thad or let him walk. They both could play against some of the 3's and some of the 4's. I think Singleton is being underrated. I don't think it would be a stretch to see him average 14 ppg @ around48%-54%, 6-8 rpg, and about a steal and a block per game after a couple of years and he could even be better than that.

Blog: Players not working out for Sixers makes it tougher to judge in draft:


Are any of the players refusing to work out for the sixers believed to be going LOWER than 16 - if so - I'd ask the sixers how they feel about people refusing to work for them that might be available.

Cin reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 13:00

I don't think these are all cases of personal affronts to the Sixers organization. Look at Biyombo and the Knicks for example. They sit at 17 but are very openly discussing moving up for their top targets. There's more than likely chatter betweens teams and agents going on.

The 76ers are very obviously staying put to grab whomever falls out of the lottery. If I'm a prospect, I'm avoiding that scenario by working for whom I expect to be in the top 15 on draft day but may be staring on the outside in for now.

Thank you for stating the obvious. I appreciate it. But I was asking someone with access to the sixers to comment on it. I wasn't talking about guys projected higher than 16 was i? I was talking about guys projected to be available at 16 or lower refusing to work out for the sixers.

Contrary to popular belief here, I'm not a moron.

Cin reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 13:13

But you are very contrary.

Which non-lottery first rounder has refused to work out? I see maybe Faried, but enough teams love him to make the late-lottery a realistic ceiling.

Fine, I'm contrary, but I question your literacy.
Now, go back and read my original response to Mr Moores comment. Tell me - was I making a statement or asking a question of Mr Moore specifically?

Cin reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 13:33

Is there a basis to your question other than trivial curiosity?

Anthony in Ontario,Ca.:
Any posibility the Clippers can keep Kaman and still get Igudola.If not what is their backup plan for center when Kaman leaves

Eric Pincus:
The only way to do that is to move the 2012 pick or Gordon for Iguodala (or Blake) and from what I understand, the Clippers won't do any of those things. Kaman is the starting point for the Sixers and even that might not get it done.

Chad Ford

Maloofs like Jimmer. Sounds like the basketball staff thinks 7 is too high. Team is also exploring trades for point guards like Raymond Felton and (reportedly) Tony Parker. I have them taking Kemba if he's there ... but I think they should draft Jimmer. I think he's a great fit for them in the long run.

16 sounds about right for Jimmer though don't it?

Get demarcus - make tray happy

Chad Ford
(1:30 PM)
A call coming from a GM ... give me a second, I need to get this.

The cynic in me says he's lying

Classic Chad Ford attention-grabbing play. What a self-aggrandizing dweeb! If it were actually a GM calling, he wouldn't post it, he'd just say "need to step out for a minute." I hate Chad Ford.

I sent him some rather pointed comments that I know won't get answered :)

Is it just me or do there seem to be some awfully big names in play - in a weak draft. It seems that teams are getting real desperate leading into the lock out OR the media is just making stuff up to stimulate interest (and clicks) and tomorrow is going to be super boring

Well I think tomorrow should be pretty interesting, because even though there aren't a pile of superstars in the draft, it's pretty deep with talent, I feel like for the first time in several years I've heard of the players projected in the late teens. Last year I hadn't heard of anyone who went after #5.

But as far as trades, well they may not get announced tomorrow night, but I think a few will go down.

I'd be pretty surprised if Iggy isn't traded at some point tomorrow night, although it may not be announced until Friday.

I agree Hamilton makes much more sense if they trade Iggy. Not sure they'll make a deal by the draft (they are pessimistic about it) but they're likely to make one this summer. Markieff Morris and Nikola Vucevic also in the mix.

Brian totally loves that answer

But despite my dislike for Chad Ford, I love his prediction here. Hamilton or Vucevic, let's git 'er done!

I feel like we need to create a disclaimer to put at the bottom of all your posts. Something like:

Not only am I a huge Spencer Hawes fan, but I think Bargnani is the shit, too!

I really think he's become a parody of what he was trying to be. I thought it was just a joke but recently I think he's bought into his own nuttiness and getting worse and worse.

I think an intervention is required.

Haha, I never said I thought Hawes was a superstar. I said I like his game, he's fun to watch, and he's not nearly as bad everyone here thinks he is.

As for Vucevic, the guy is a true center, virtual 7-footer, averaged 17 & 10 against reasonably good competition, and shot 75% from the line, which is very good for any college player, and outrageously good for a 7-foot college player. It shows he has shooting touch.

And I suppose the rumors could be wrong, but considering many people think Vucevic is going to the Sixers, many people think Thorn also sees what I see in Vucevic. So although you may think I'm a caricature, apparently Thorn might also have that caricature, so maybe it's not as absurd as you think.

Although Thorn did give Travis Outlaw $35M. I don't want to be associated with that :)

He's actually much worse than most people think. He's probably worse than even I think he his, and I think he's terrible.

SEriously - he's speights bad


Cin reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 13:59

Vucevic is our latest DX pick.

What really suprised me was Chandler Parsons in the first round to the Nets. 17-20 were discussed pretty thoroughly in last nights podcast. I'm really hoping Klay Thompson bombs another drug test or something.

Someone drops every year right?

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 14:08

I always root for the Philly guys, but the Morris twins are total stay-aways for me, especially Marcus.

I wouldn't be excited about it, but I guess I could deal with Markieff, I'd probably take him over Vucevic. If the other big guys are gone, I really want Faried. But I'm getting mentally prepared for any player that likes to stand on the perimeter on offense and avoids rebounding and contesting shots on defense. So that way I won't be disappointed.

A little off-topic, but I got very depressed reading an NBA Playbook post about how this Italian guy, Etorre Messina will use the Lakers offense. This had to deal with specifically their post players, and that guy has to be foaming at the mouth to institute some of his stuff.

Nobody really has the Lakers' size skill, but running offense would be so much easier with just one solid back to the basket guy. It just frees everything else up. "Spacing the floor" with two shooting big men sounds great, but it really can seem like clogging the floor at times, because nobody is taking up the block. Sadly, Brand isn't the guy that we thought we were getting.

I guess this turned into an anti-Vucevic post.

All roads lead to anti-Vucevic posts for the next 28 hours and 30 minutes, about.

Did the sixers hire ettore?

Two separate thoughts, I believe. Talking about how great an offense can run w/ a legit post up guy, then lamenting the fact that the Sixers don't have one, and certainly won't after this draft.

Rich reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 14:48

I'm starting to think of the NBA as a whole and just realizing how unfair the Lakers are. Having a post guy that can score efficiently with his back to the basket is so rare in this game, and they have two of the four guys who really fit the bill, along with Dwight and Kevin Love.

That's why I think it's important to find mobile big guys who can defend and block shots. If you don't have one of the true post scorers, the best defensive presence is the next best option. That's why Tyson Chandler was such a big deal.

Now usually the next best "scoring" big men are good defenders anyway so that obviously makes them a high priority. The Garnetts and Horfords of the league. Aldridge might be the exception to that rule with Love.

I'm not really sure the lakers are unfair.

Aside from the pau deal - they just drafted and worked free agency smartly.

And the Lakers aren't exactly unbeatable any more

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 15:12

They aren't unfair in the sense of they acquired the players, seemingly even moreso as Marc Gasol has panned out.

The idea of having two of the four guys in the league with an important and unique skill set will give them a built-in advantage to mask other weaknesses for a few more years even.

The future 'dominance' of the lakers resides in the health of andrew bynums knee

How high do we have to trade up to get Valanciunas now, like 9 or 10? C'mon like Lou and we take back someone elses contract, that's gotta be enough to move up seven spots, right?

Your profile picture makes me want to hit my comptuer screen, and i'm a pacifist

Oops, my bad. I tried to find one that was less anger-inducing and yet still relevant.

Don't think that one has a chance in hell of happening. They're looking for the guy who they think will make them a 50-win team this year, not a guy they have to wait for. As idiotic as that seems. God I hope I'm wrong about this.

They're looking for the guy who they think will make them a 50-win team this year, not a guy they have to wait for.

Really? Cause I think a guy who can step in and be a defensive presence at the 5 is a guy that will help them be a 50 win team - they don't seem to agree.

PS - can't trade iguodala and be a 50 win team - that's nuts

You're preaching to the choir on both counts.

Well I know - but the reasoning just doesn't seem to jibe.

IF the sixers want to be a 50 win team next year then WHY would they field ANY offers on Iguodala. Trading your best player does not make your team better usually. It makes you worse. So - they didn't win 50 this year - they trade Iguodala they are already on track to win less than 50.

Then - they pass up the chance to plug a big hole easily.

It just seems that if their goal IS to win 50 games next year - the motivating factor - they're going about it bassackwards

Let me start this by saying I have no clue about Valanuciunas except from reading on the sites.

Interestingly enough though Chunky, I have seen that popular media opinion has him as a Top 5 talent with a lot of teams passing on him because he can't come over until next year. That's the vibe I'm getting from reading people. I think that's ridiculous.

IF he were to fall near the Sixers, I would have hoped they did their homework on him and most likely it would have determined that he is a player that could be a huge steal that point. If they passed on him for a Morris twin, I'd be sick.

The whole idea of not being patient enough to wait one year is ridiculous. He's not going on vacation. He'll still be playing in Lithuania.

I just get a kick out of drafting as if their championship window is open right now and may close in a year or two.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 15:35

A window is closing- the job window for Thorn and Stefanski. They are majorly on the hot seast with new management. they want to make it seem like the team is "new" (Iguodala trade) and on the rise (squeeze out 45 wis next year.)

I seriously doubt they're here throughout the summer in any meaningful way.

tk76 reply to Rich on Jun 22 at 15:25

Mobile big who can defed... like Sam?

Hawes over Sam.

Vucevic over Biyombo.

What's the definition of insanity?

tk76 reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 15:36

Being a die hard Sixer fan for 30 years?

Does anyone believe that most NBA teams are looking to make changes to create ongoing conversation/optimism among their fanbase whle they are on their extended vacations?

sfw reply to sfw on Jun 22 at 15:18

Why not wait for Valanuciunas? They may not be playing next year anyway.

No - because that would be foolish.

Someone said there are 3 ways you can improve your nba team

Free Agency
Trades between teams of active players
and the draft

Two of those things might not happen so i think people are overly motivated to improve through the draft since a prolonged lock out might restrict free agency and team trades

sfw reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 15:46

Valid point.

Not mine - someone elses - on ESPN - I think it was that former Asst GM from Portland they use

Check this out: Biyombo workout video (Bobcats workout) http://on.nba.com/lzzGF4

There are three videos w/ Biyombo there, look below the player.

Oh, how high do we have to trade up to get THIS guy? What he should do is shut up and stop charming everyone and then stop working out and impressing everyone, you know, if he really wants to go to a playoff team like the Sixers and not play for the pathetic Charlotte MJs.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 15:37

Can't view. What do your trained eyes tell you?

He's big, quick and strong. And he'd score 50/game if he was playing against assistant coaches (or Andre Bargnani) every night.

Tray reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 19:41

Playing against actual players, Draftexpress said today that he has some of the worst offensive numbers of any big man in the draft. And in rebounding per 40 minutes he was only tenth best in defensive (behind Vucevic!), fifth best in offensive.

Rich reply to Tray on Jun 22 at 19:50

Yeah, but that's not a big deal for two reasons:

1. He played against way better competition, and that wasn't a factor in the study. The difference between rebounding against a team in the ACB and Oregon State is huge.

2. You aren't drafting him for offense.

Charlie H reply to tk76 on Jun 22 at 16:26

I realize he's not being defended, but it looks like he can shoot with either hand near the basket. That's encouraging. His hands do look suspect though.

Sam's hands were, and always will be, suspect

I keep using the Sam comparison cause I htink it's important. He's sam - in rawness - when he was drafted - but he has determination, drive, a love of basketball and a work ethic.

How many times did some of us lament what sam could have been if he wanted to work at it.

This guy is as raw as sam was - but he's going to do his best to be as good as he could be.

I hated Sam, but he was a dfensive presence this team needed, even this year, passing on the next one is asinine

I've seen video where his hands look bad, this one they looked fine to me. If you want to see a guy with really bad hands, check out some video of Jan Vesely.

SEriously - how do his hands compare to sam?

Vesely's hands looked putrid in the video I saw of him, even beyond the specific clips draft express put together to show how bad his hands are (I think I'm remembering that correctly).

Biyombo, I'm not so sure about. Like I said last night, turnovers are a concern. He's like a bull in a china shop sometimes.

I hope you guys don't mind, but I'm not planning on writing another post to let you know the Sixers have officially extended qualifying offers to Thad and that useless center. I figure the fifteenth time they announce this nonsense is a little bit of overkill.

Let me rant in advance:

If the Sixers pass on Bismack, or watch him get picked at something like #14 they have shown their incompetetnce.

It does not even matter whether he turns into a stud or a bust (once he's on another team)... what matters is that the Sxiers seem like they no longer want to build a dominant athletic defense, and have opted to go with the Hawes's of the world.


It's been written by Tom Moore at least once that the sixers have no interest in him.

So haven't they already shown their incompetence?

I don't remember Tom reporting that, did I miss it? The only thing I think I saw from him was that Witte wanted to have him in, but he declined the workout.

Maybe it wasn't Tom, but I could have sworn I read something from someone 'respectable' that the sixers had no interest in working Biyombo out?

The only thing I've read directly was that dude on Real GM saying the Sixers thought he was too much of a project. That's literally the only words I've seen in print that they aren't interested in him.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 16:41

and you know how reliable that guy is...

seriously, you guys are having a meltdown over unsubstantiated bullshit rumors from an attention whore on maybe the dumbest basketball forum on the internet, and recycled news stories on twitter.

You're all ripping Thorn to shreds but he hasn't done anything to warrant that...yet.

To borrow a line from the Big Lebowski, nothing is fucked here Dude, come on, you're being veryyyy un-Dude

You're a funny guy, no you're not a clown to me, I'm just saying you're a funny guy.

I'm not over reacting at all now am I - I'm saying i believe Tom Moore indicated the sixers had no interest in Biyomobo so talking about him was pointless.

You don't find it troubling they didn't have him in for a work out? He's not a 'finished' product, he's a guy you have to interview and see if you think of drafting him?

Though I must admit the whole premise, since I've seen you believe some WILDLY baseless crap (ala Andre Iguodala) because it fits your preconceived notions, just made me laugh

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 16:50

And here I thought you'd be the one to come back at me and tell me "Donny,you're out of your element"

i thought Biyombo didn't workout here because they didn't feel like they'd be able to get him to come in? DiLeo and Witte are the same guys that have been intrigued by athletic players with defensive upside for years. One stupid trade (Hawes) and people are assuming the FO philosophy has taken a complete 180.

I'm pretty sure Tom said they asked and Biyombo wouldn't come in. I can look it up, I guess.

Here you go.

"In an email response, Sixers director of player personnel Courtney Witte said Thursday that he “just got off the phone” with Igor Crespo, the European agent for Congolese big man Bismack Biyombo and that Biyombo doesn't plan to visit with the Sixers."

Ok - I got it backwards.

I'd be curious to know why they didn't want to work out for the sixers since the sixers have the power to draft as high as #4 in this draft

Guys never do that, though, work out for teams who might trade up. There's this stigma attached to workouts, like if a guy works out for a team in the late teams, that's where he should be drafted, or their agents have lost confidence. Exceptions to that rule would be the Knicks, Lakers and probably Heat now. Iconic teams, if you will.

God the NBA draft process is so fracked

It was a disastrously stupid trade motivated primarily by money - and not basketball - and the sixers haven't done anything since then to indicate they have a clue.

(Sadly, i'm old, I don't know who the hell donny is, my good fellas is limited, i liked karen the most)

The sixers have numerous rumors regarding their trade of Andre Iguodala out there (all of which have no credibility but are taken seriously here by many) one of which involved the #4 pick in the draft. If the sixers maybe get the 4th pick in the draft, why wouldn't Biyombo work out for the sixers if asked, unless the sixers had no interest in him.

It's probably irrelevant because he'll probably be gone by the time the sixers pick.

The knicks worked him ou didn't they?

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 16:55

Big Lebowski reference, not Goodfellas. Lebowski isn't for everyone, but I am a fan.

Never seen it, i love the coen brothers, i've been told to see it a lot, but meh, i have a long list of movies and hell I just got the first season of blakes 7

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:02

you'll probably catch it on tv one day, It's on Encore a lot. I don't know why he'd work out with NY and not Philly, I guess Biyombo is intrigued by the idea of playing in New York. From the interviews,seems like a kid who could get caught up in the aura of NY.

Alright, we almost made it through the day w/out name calling. Let's not ruin it now.

I'm pessimistic because people I trust have reported that Vucevic is the Sixers primary target and I have a feeling they'd take him over Biyombo. It also seems like they're operating under a foolish premise of somehow improving the team by making a "safe" pick and trading Iguodala.

Nothing definitive has happened yet, and Thorn really doesn't have any strikes against him as the head man for the Sixers, but that doesn't mean I'm exactly hopeful he'll make the smart choice tomorrow night.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 16:59

I guess the x factor in all of this is how much of a say Doug Collins has in the front office decisions/draft nowadays.

I'm actually shocked if Doug is a Vucevic guy, his defensive scheme was pretty great last year besides one glaring, obvious hole in the middle. I think he's smart enough to know that replacing that hole with a slightly bigger, less oafy version of what they've got now isn't the answer.

tk76 reply to johnrosz on Jun 22 at 17:00

Hey now, there are dumber forums out there if you look hard enough. But I guess it is good to the the best at something :)

And I think Tom said something about them not being terribly interested in Bismack. IIRC it was in a discussion and not in print. But I could be mis-remembering.

Hell you moderate one of them :)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:15

I'm pretty sure he was referring to there.

johnrosz reply to tk76 on Jun 22 at 17:04

There are a few people who seem reasonable over there. I went on the other day and it's hard to find decent stuff between the pwning of n00bz and the bickering. I had enough once I realized they were having a real debate about whether or not Monta=D Wade

RickyPryor is the most knowledgable basketball mind on all the interwebs

Just ask him :)

tk76 reply to johnrosz on Jun 22 at 17:29

I'll admit that I do not put much work into babysitting there. Open forums attract that stuff becasue they lack the leadership in steering discussion that a blog has. that is why I post mostly here.

But RealGM is interesting, and it has a good base of fans that cover the entire spectrum. As a mod I try to step in if peope are being repeatedly abusive. But there's not much you can do to raise the level of discourse :)

Anyhow, the Be the GM thing was fun. You should try it.

Sorry about that - i was kind of having a mini meltdown and never got a chance to look at that stuff - i had to actually cut back on work because there's a good chance i was killing myself

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:53

Don't worry about it. It's moved on to the 2k11 monthly sim.

tk76 reply to johnrosz on Jun 22 at 17:18

Sorry, un-Dude is often my M.O.

If I can't be worried about something I get nervous. It's part of my upbringing and cultural heritage and its steeped in hundreds of years of history. But sorry if it brings things down at Depressdedfan :)

Wait, you're jewish too? I didn't know

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 16:36

The Sixers used to go with players who fit an athletic mold who at least had potential to be good defenders. Sam, Iguodala, Jrue- and even guys like Thad and Carney had the pre-requisistes to develop into defenders.

Suddenly they shifted gears. Hawes, Ncioni, possible picks like Vucevic and Jrdan Hamilton. Possible trade targets like Kaman and Ellis... all poor defenders due to either size or footspeed issues.

Does it feel like they stopped listening to TOny Dileo to you?

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:02

You could be on to something. DiLeo has become an invisible man.

But who knows the inner workings at Chili's these days.

If the sixers have stopped listening to Dileo - then it's much worse than we thought

emtmess reply to tk76 on Jun 22 at 20:17

If they pass on him at 16 yes. Not if we do not trade up to get him. The asking price could be to high. Not that I am down on him but do you think he is going to be better than Derrick Favors? I think there will be a chance to get a player like him in the draft the next couple of years.

That's what I think you should look at Biymobo like - I think it makes it simple.

Would this team be better wit Sam in the middle?
Would you be upset if the sixers signed sam for '16th pick' money this off season?

If you say yes, and then no, I think you should want Biyombo because he's gonna end up like Sam, at worst. I think his downside is Sam Dalembert and as much as I hated the guys awful offense, his defense was good

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 19:45

We really, really don't know that his downside is Sam. If teams were convinced of that, there'd be no way we'd have any chance at taking him.

Where the hell is Doug Collins these days?

Arizona, I assume. Probably trying to figure out who his boss will be in a couple of weeks.

Should I be bothered that the 'super' head coach who 'turned around' the sixers by restoring them to first round chum isn't around as the draft is being decided? Sure I know they can call him - but he's not here for work outs?

Dude, Jack Mckeon can still manage baseball games you can get your rickety ass to Philadelphia

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:02

I don't think he has as much input on decisions, especially after Thorn came in and replaced Stefanski.

that was my assumption, he could be in the war room for all I know (or Chili's, if you want to be technical about it).

johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 17:07

he was at the combine in Chicago, and comcast has been running some footage of him hanging out at PCOM with Thorn Witte and McKie that looks pretty recent. I think he's been around but then again I haven't seen any 8 minute interviews pop up with him lately, so maybe not.

tk76 reply to johnrosz on Jun 22 at 17:20

I asked Tom. he said last year Witte and DiLeo rotated giving press interview. Now it is just Witte. But that does not mean that DiLeo is no longer involved.

Wait - you switche dfrom DiLeo to Collins

I'm confused now - who was at the workouts - Dileo or Collins?

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:34

Sorry, lost track of the coversation. Its a big thread. At one stage people were talking DiLeo and then Collins.

Tom Moore reply to tk76 on Jun 22 at 19:48

Believe Collins has been to every workout -- just hasn't talked to media or typically been in the gym when cameras are allowed in (entire sessions are closed to us).

GoSixers reply to Tom Moore on Jun 22 at 23:04

Is that unusual? The coach avoiding the media smells fishy to me unless this is SOP.

To me it means dissension, and we know there was some dispute last year.

Have we really crossed over to the point where we're critcizing them 1) before they make a pick and 2) based upon what they are putting out there regarding a prospect that they would have to hope would fall to them?

If the Sixers wanted Biyombo, wouldn't the stategy be to not show overt interest while talking up others prospects who they would hope other teams would select instead?

Killing the front office based upon internet draft site projections and what they leak to the media is equivalent to the "20 ppg" and "WIP" mentality that this board trashes. Criticze what they do and the results that actually occur.

BTW, this draft sucks and isn't worth all of the angry typing that I'm reading.

If the Sixers wanted Biyombo, wouldn't the stategy be to not show overt interest while talking up others prospects who they would hope other teams would select instead?

yes because other teams fear the sixers SO MUCH they'd draft a guy JUST to keep him off the sixers. God that's such a ridiculous thought process I can't believe people still have it. A teams draft board is a teams draft board, it should in no way be influenced by who else is interested in a guy. The sixers should have the first 20 listed on their board in their order of preference and then draft whomever is available, who cares what other teams MIGHT think, no one is defensively drafting in the first round of the nba draft, it's a ridiculous concept.

I'm sorry that the idea of doing nothing actually is an indicator, I'm sorry that since you don't agree with it the reliable sources just don't hold water for you.

(PS - I'm not angry - I'm just very energetic - it's easy to confused when you have no clue how a person is feeling but presume that you do)

That's a legitimate thing, though. If it's widely known the Sixers covet Biyombo, and the Knicks want him, they can trade up to get him. Whereas if it seems like they aren't interested, they'd be willing to wait if he drops to 15. Make sense?

I don't buy it as much - not on this draft because this draft is TOTALLY up in the air - after like 5- there are players who could go anywhere from 6 to 20 - there's so much volatitilly in this draft, working a guy out would not make that much a difference.

Besides - the sixers showed interest - according to reports -Biyombo turned them down :)

The only thing I'm hoping for right now is for someone to jump over the Sixers to get their hands on Vucevic.

Steve V reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 18:02

That's exactly how I feel. I'm praying Houston takes him. Didn't we learn our lesson last year with slow footed, unathletic centers who can shoot mid range jumpers? We need an athlete in the middle plain and simple.

I'm perfectly willing to eat crow if they do something bold in the draft. Unfortunately, they haven't really earned the benefit of the doubt. I think the negativity and criticism is more about lowering our own expectations.

tk76 reply to CM on Jun 22 at 17:12

Hey, look back at my initial post.

I admitted that my rant was simply that, and premature. I don't have to apologize for getting worked up over potentially nothing since I did not attack anyone here- just a perception I have about the team (right or wrong.)

When all you here for weeks is rumors ivolving Iguodala for Hedo, Ellis or kaman and now you read how they are most interetsed in drafting guys who have a rap of lacking foot speed... it can lead to a certain level of anxiety over the teams direction.

Sure it could all be a smoke screen or all concocted by the media. But since its the only news I read about the Sxiers- and it has followed a consistent theme in every story for weeks- I am concerned.

Let me be wrong- that would be my preferenece.

johnrosz reply to Rich on Jun 22 at 17:10

yeah, but that doesn't count because he wasn't trying. if he tries...look out!

If he tries he suddenly won't be grossly undersized or have dwarf arms.

tk76 reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 17:14

But he's never played under coach Collins. The man turned hawes into a quality rebounder. I'm guessing he can transform ellis into the secod coming of Alvin Robinson.

Hawes could've led the league in rebounds if he'd caught the 300 balls that bounced off his head.

Rich reply to johnrosz on Jun 22 at 17:17

The article said that he actually does work hard on that end, according to Keith Smart who has no real reason to lie at this point.

I think Lowe is a pretty good judge of things. I found the idea of the breakdown of Monta's basic defensive stance to be fascinating. How does he not know how to sit down and get low. In the NBA? Habits like that belong to 5th graders.

Well I know we had a long discussion about how broken basketball is in the teaching of fundamentals all the way back to AAU (and possibly earlier)

Defense first and foremost requires a dedication to do it (in my mind) and everything stems from that, and defense is neglected in the early years especially when a guy can 'put up points' like Ellis did.

Maybe in college he would have learned some defense, but by the time you get to the NBA the NBA doesn't have time to teach you that crap and either you dedicate yourself to getting better or you continue to suck.

It seems the way Monta went would indicate that Doug Collins won't make him any better :)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:22

When a guy gets scored on they have one of two reactions:

1. Lock them down next time


2. get them back on the other end.

Ellis, Lou and Speights fall into the second camp. Not sure if that can change with coaching, fundamentals or anything else.

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:25

The funny thing is Smart said that Ellis was in fact dedicated to it. That actually is a good indicator of Collins not being able to help him IMO.

It's like anything in hoops, when a guy is young and hadn't been playing for a long time. People will like his potential because they say, "He doesn't have any bad habits because he's new to the game." It seems like Eliis may have worrisome habits that are ingrained in him.

That actually is a good indicator of Collins not being able to help him IMO.

I probably made it badly (I know a lot of times i Make my points badly) but that was my point. that if ellis sucks but is trying - collins won't have time to make him better - it's not systemic like people were trying to say to make it seem like ellis didn't suck - ellis just sucks defensively and only ELLIS can make himself better

tk76 reply to Rich on Jun 22 at 17:31

Collins would not so much improve Ellis's defense as he would try and hide him through schemes and maybe tell him to cut down on taking gambles for steals.

Rich reply to tk76 on Jun 22 at 17:39

After he's already had to hide a few guys currently on the roster. You can't have a defensive system where you are hiding two of the perimeter guys and a center who is a stiff.

tk76 reply to Rich on Jun 22 at 17:42

I don't disgree.

Tray reply to tk76 on Jun 22 at 20:01

It doesn't surprise me. Monta went to a little public school in Mississippi - no prep school, no college, nothing. They may well have had an idiot for a coach. Wikipedia says, amazingly, that there's not a single white student at the school. So I imagine it's not an affluent or very well-funded place. Then he went to Golden State and Eric Musselman and Don Nelson.

draft express updated their mock and now has kanter going 2nd


Brian may not consider offering qualifying offers to Thad and Spawes important, but ESPN does - they texted me an alert and EVERYTHING

So the whole time - i've been reading and saying his name as bismark - but it's bismack - which is totally cooler.

His theme song of course is the classic rap joint, just a friend

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 17:55

As in B-Smack.

The guy already has too many nicknames.

Steve V reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 18:05

It's pronounced "Bismarck" though for some odd reason.

So I was pronouncing it right. I don't think of it as 'odd' as I don't understand most African languages so I'm just americanizing it by reading it how it's spelled. :)

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 20:02

I prefer Biz Markie's "Make the Music With Your Mouth Biz."

I'm guessing this happens tomorrow:

Sixers draft Bismack at #16. He wears the Sixers hat and gives a great interview.

And in the backround we here that the pick has been tradedfrom the Sxiers to OKC for BJ Mullins and future cosiderations.

That would be twisting the knife a bit, wouldn't it?

Nope - he was packaged with Iguodala to get Kaman :)

From Bill Simmons in his article on GrantLand:

Without further ado, let's make up 20 fake deals separated into various categories, and let's make sure none of them include the bogus "Monta Ellis for Andre Igoudala" swap, which makes no sense for the simple reason that Monta Ellis is better at basketball than Andre Igoudala. Anyway …

I usually respect his opinion and knowledge of the NBA but to be so ademant Ellis is better than Iguodala is ridiculous.

the only thing i ever respect about simmons is his essays on being a FAN of boston sports (which seems to be enough to make you an expert on things) and his 'gm roundtable'

everything else he writes is nonsensical crap - and like kate fagan - he's just getting worse

Rich reply to Steve V on Jun 22 at 18:52

Spelled his name wrong too.

I tried to look at it, but stopped reading when I saw Iguodala was in the same group as Bargnani.

His rationale for elevating Ellis above Iguodala, Martin, Deng and (LOL) Bargnani:

"And no, Monta Ellis should not be included in this group. Find me eight other guys who can score 25 to 30 points a game and get their shots against anybody. You can't. Eleven million a year is a fair price for him."

Yes Bill, but does he make the shots? Or do anything else to help the team?

I think he's auditioning for a local sports radio show

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 19:28

I was mad for a minute and then realized it's not worth it. It's kind of funny when you realize how serious and defiant he is.

Oh i'm not mad at all, though I do find it pathetic that people look to him as some sort of informed expert.

Tray reply to Rich on Jun 22 at 19:55

I mean, Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Lou Williams, and all sorts of players could score 25 ppg on the right awful team. Jason Terry would probably do it a lot more efficiently than Ellis too. I really do enjoy watching Ellis, at times he's quite Iversonian (people compare Rose to Iverson, but I find Rose, besides being overrated, quite dull, as everything with him is a straight-line drive, a dunk, or a jump shot that he sucks at making), but it's not like Ellis is some rare talent. There are crazy shots around the rim that he and very few other players can make, but that doesn't make him a great player.


BYU's Jimmer Fredette said there will be a “Jimmer Jam” at the Glens Falls, N.Y. Civic Center Thursday night with 6,000 fans watching the draft. He said he will be eagerly watching what happens at No. 3 to see if the Jazz go big with Enes Kanter instead of Knight. But he said he’s more than fine going to Sacramento at No. 7 and is anticipating being at No. 12 (Utah) or No. 13 Phoenix or No. 15 Indiana. He anticipates New York would have to move up from No. 17 if he were to go to the Knicks.

I hate this kid more and more every day -

The two names that might end up slipping deeper in the lottery than expected are UConn's Kemba Walker and Colorado’s Alec Burks.

Derek - Tell me about alec burks?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jun 22 at 19:47

Watch this strengths/weaknesses video breakdown, it's very informative. He looks like such a great player until they start showing the weaknesses, which are so dramatically, well, weak that I don't even want to spoil them for you by saying what they are.


I thought your name was tray

johnrosz on Jun 22 at 19:42
johnrosz reply to johnrosz on Jun 22 at 19:46

Iggy for Artests horrible contract and Odom?

Handing the Lakers title, and paying Ron Artests bloated deal.

That might actually be enough to make me give up the Sixers

"Iguodala is in play for Minnesota as well, according to a rival general manager who called the possibility of the Sixers acquiring the No. 2 pick in a package for their 27-year-old swingman "definitely real." The Timberwolves have been seeking a high-level veteran in exchange for the second selection in Thursday's draft and other pieces."

Rich reply to Jason on Jun 22 at 20:29

See, that's an Iguodala deal that I could be interested in. At least you are getting a solid young piece back.

johnrosz reply to Rich on Jun 22 at 20:30

yeah, the LA deal though...good god. Why?

I think #2 pick is fair value for Iggy, a great deal if we don't take any salary back imo.

Tom Moore on Jun 22 at 19:50

Mock draft: Sixers could wind up with Biyombo:


read 'em and weep -- i nearly did writing this ...

johnrosz reply to Tom Moore on Jun 22 at 19:53

have you heard that they actually have interest? Or is this just wishful thinking?

I don't know if I can stomach Vucevic at 16

deepsixersuede reply to Tom Moore on Jun 22 at 20:17

Tom, could the sixers be sandbagging and in love with somebody none of us are discussing? I can't get the Thad Young pick out of my mind. It seemed out of the blue and not mentioned much beforehand.

Tom Moore reply to deepsixersuede on Jun 22 at 21:47

Sixers haven't really tipped their hand. They supposedly like numerous bigs, especially the internationals, but would consider a wing guy (Singleton, Hamilton) if a good one is available.

Emailed Rod Thorn with a list of guys to try to get a sense or what they're thinking and didn't hear bad. Knew it was a long shot, but I tried.

Tom Moore reply to Tom Moore on Jun 22 at 21:48

*didn't hear back

GoSixers reply to deepsixersuede on Jun 22 at 23:01

Iguodala was kind of out of the blue too - no one knew he worked out for the sixers until after he was picked

From your lips (fingertips) to Thorn's ears, Tom. Thanks for putting it in print!

Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jun 22 at 21:39

There are so many possible scenarios. That is one. You never know.

I want Vucevic at #16, Gary McGee at #50.

deepsixersuede on Jun 22 at 20:02

I could understand, to a point, bringing in offensive perimeter bigs to help an Iggy, Turner and Jrue trio work but if Iggy is moved and replaced with a shooter what is the point?

is this iggy for the 2nd pick true or is it kahn being kahn?

Tom Moore reply to sixerfan1220 on Jun 22 at 21:49

doesn't sound like a viable possibility to me.

Tom Moore on Jun 22 at 20:17

Draft preview: Sixers could finally go international in first round:


Just heard a rumor: Iguodala for Lamar Odom. Any truth to this?

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