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Dollars For Wins

This is a real cool way of looking at this team. On a different note, I used to be a big AI9 fan - then I started reading this blog. Now I'm having a very hard time liking him. I feel like you go way over board to compensate for all the haters out there. He is a very good player that brings so much to the court.

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Mike reply to Timx on Jul 6 at 10:30
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So, if I'm reading you correctly, you liked Andre Iguodala, until you found a website where people advanced rational arguments for liking Andre Iguodala?

Ah well, you can always join the pro-Spencer-Hawes lobby. Not likely to have that same problem with him.

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Timx reply to Mike on Jul 6 at 11:17
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Very strange, right? But when I'm talking to a casual fan, I tend to argue pro-AI9. I guess I'm in the middle when it comes to Iggy. I love what he brings defensively and dislike what he brings in terms of attitude and body language. I know the folks on here quickly dismiss the human element and will hit me with fact based stats (which are great). However, I can't help but look at him in the same light as a Bobby Abreau type. He just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct nor does he seem to be 100% committed to his team. That's all!

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Timx reply to Mike on Jul 6 at 11:33
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Very strange, right? But when I'm talking to a casual fan, I tend to argue pro-AI9. I guess I'm in the middle when it comes to Iggy. I love what he brings defensively and dislike what he brings in terms of attitude and body language. I know the folks on here quickly dismiss the human element and will hit me with fact based stats (which are great). However, I can't help but look at him in the same light as a Bobby Abreau type. He just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct nor does he seem to be 100% committed to his team. That's all!

Yeah I like wins produced a lot, its my favorite stat cause it actually values rebounding. Also the guy andres who put up nerdnumbers is really cool, he's answered me every time I sent him a question.

I haven't looked up player value, but my opinion of Reina soured years ago.

FIC is somewhat like PER:

FIC:

(Points
+ Offensive Rebounds
+ .75 Defensive Rebounds
+ Assists
+ Steals
+ Blocks
- .75 Field Goal Attempts
- .375 Free Throw Attempts
- Turnovers
- .5 Personal Fouls)

Its an arbitrary stat, but the results it comes up with are pretty strong. Look at the top players, it seems to get most of them right:

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php?filter=all

Having Rose as the 6th best player in the NBA, and Lebron, Howard, Wade, Durant as #1-4 seems about right. But Pau as #5 seems a bit off.

Any reason?

Just my opinion of some of his work, particularly his draft coverage. I also think he's a little self absorbed. Just don't like guys who create a metric and name it after themselves (Reina Value).

By that measure of performance (FIC) the Sixers NBA rankings are:

FIC:
Brand: 30th
Iguodala: 40th (hurt by missing games)
Jrue: 42nd
Thad: 83rd
Lou: 122nd
Hawes: 141
Meeks: 157
ET: 161
...
Songalia: 462 (5th worst in the NBA)

Then the RV is detremained by dividing this by their salary RANK.

So Iguodala is the 42nd best player and has he 39th highest salary. So he has a marginally negative RV of -4. He would have been a net positive had he played more games.

Obviously, someone like Jrue has a hugely positive RV. Even Hawes was +61.

Brand was -15 despite his team leading production.

STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE: It's human nature to resist that which doesn't support our closely-held opinions, including the "jurisdiction" of player evaluation.

FROM THE "DEAD HORSE" STABLE: At the very least Andre Iguodala is controversial, a position which indemnifies him, for the time being, against also-ran NBA status. His athleticism would boost any team's fortunes - certainly in the first 46 minutes.

RHETORICAL ANSWER: If trade rumors are rampant and front office efforts are put on hold, can a public affirmation of player value and avowal of "family" inclusion be far behind?

Sad note that I just read: former Sixer Armen Gilliam died of a heart attack (while playing basketball). He was only 47. Deaths of NBA players seem to be progressing toward the present day: Maurice Lucas (70's), Mike Mitchell (80's), now Gilliam (90's).

Generally, pro sports Gilliams haven't lived long ... "Junior" Gilliam ('53 NL ROY), 37; Herm Gilliam (who teamed with Rick "The Rifle" Mount, "the Big O" and "Pistol" Pete at various stops), 58; Armen "The Hammer" Gilliam, 47. Still going: Former Cardinal/Viking/Saint/Falcon John Gilliam is beatin' his man down the sideline, jumpin' and hangin' and haulin' it in at 65.

May Armen, the former Runnin' Rebel standout & Sun/Hornet/Sixer/etc. who knew how to put the ball in the bucket (12,700 NBA pts.), rest in peace.

I still think that 13.5 million is too much to pay for someone who would be the #2 or #3 best player on a championship team. His contract represents 1/4 the available cap space on a $54 million cap.

Look at what the #2 or #3 top salary is for the majority of playoff teams. With the exception of OKC, Iguodala will make less or at least be within 1.5M of the #2 or #3 contract on every other playoff team if you look at their salaries for this past year.

Thus the lockout.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to blame Iguodala for the lockout.

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Walter reply to Brian on Jul 6 at 17:03
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Why are you so defensive about this guy?

Maybe he feels that these 2nd or 3rd players on these championship teams are overpaid.Or maybe he feels as though these championship teams shouldn't be allowed to carry so many expensive players.

Why did you decide to change your handle, Rod? Thought it would add more weight to your argument.

You made the statement that Iguodala makes too much money to be the second or third best player on a championship team.

Dallas this past season
LA the prior season
LA the season prior to that
BOS the season prior to that

The past four championship teams are all examples of why the statement you made is ridiculous, so either you're a complete moron, or this is about how you feel about Iguodala as a player. I'd lean toward all of the above.

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Rod Walters reply to Brian on Jul 6 at 17:23
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I have many handles. I flow with the wind and live an unstable life. Usually all of the ones that end with aol.com are mine.

But would Igoudala really be the 2nd best player on those teams?

Boston- Peirce, Garnett, and Allen were all more valuable.
LA- Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum were all more valuable.
Dallas- Dirk, Chandler, and Kidd were all more valuable.

All of those players fit well with those teams and all of those players contributed more than 4 points in their games. Igoudala gets praised for his defense, but with the exception of game 1 I wasn't satisfied with what Igoudala did on the defensive end. He is supposed to be our "lock down" defender, yet he couldn't slow down Wade. Why are we paying 13.5 million for a guy who scores 4 points and can't slow down the opposing team's best wing player?

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Rich reply to Rod Walters on Jul 6 at 18:07
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If you watched any of that series, Iguodala spent the majority of his time guarding LeBron. Meeks and Jrue were on Wade. I remember Wade scoring a BS three point play on Iguodala in Game One where he pushed off with his foot on Iguodala, but most of his time was spent on LeBron.

Saying Jason Kidd is more valuable or whatever to that team is somewhat laughable, but that's not the argument when it comes to money. It's who is the better player.

Not pointing finger at Iguodala but commenting on the general outrageous NBA player salary scale of which he is a representative part, a point raised by TK76. The lockout is about collective greed - players, agents, owners, counsel, subsidiaries ... "The Stickyfingers Stoppage" or "The Saltwater Taffy Pull." Only real question is the next split - and when it resumes, not if.

I've never seen such a continuous organic defense of such a continuous component player. Outside of a blogmaster's prerogative, why do you play King Of The Hill in his name? My guesses are, you show inspired middle-aged man's D or you have occasional trouble knockin' down the J. The AI9 identification just won't die. To each his own.

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Rod reply to tk76 on Jul 6 at 16:55
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Dallas:
Dirk Nowitzki- 19 million
Jason Terry- 11 million
Jason Kidd- 8.5 million
Shawn Marion- 8 million

Miami:
Lebron James- 16 million
Chris Bosh- 16 million
Dwayne Wade- 15 million
Mike Miller- 5.4 million

Chicago:
Derrick Rose- 7 million
Carlos Boozer- 13.5 million
Loul Deng- 12 million
Joakim Noah- 10 million

OKC:
Durant: 13.6 million
Perkins: 7 million


-These were the top 4 teams. Of those teams (except Miami) Igoudala would be the 2nd highest paid player.

Chandler made 13.4M for Dallas, you're looking at next year's salaries.

OKC is the only legit team that isn't paying two players north of $11M/year, and that's only because Westbrook hasn't needed to be extended yet. Indy didn't pay anyone over $11M last year, but they weren't really a legit playoff team.

Very good players on their second contracts make some money, and teams somehow find ways to win with them.

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Walter reply to Brian on Jul 6 at 17:06
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I don't think Chandler will get paid more than 12 million next season and I still consider Dallas to be a championship team next year. Most of the salaries for these guys haven't changed much.

I apologize to anyone who finds this line of reasoning, enjoyable, but I think the collective IQ around here is dropping to dangerous levels. It's time to cull the herd.

Any way you look at it Iguodala is making within 2-3M of what his peers. That type of money is not the difference between being able to build a champion. Having 15M in dead contracts is what hurts. Overpaying brand by 5-6M hurts.

Iguodala was probably underpaid his 1st 2 years and will be overpaid his last 2 years. that's the price of having escalating contracts. But overpaying a top 40 NBA player by a few million is not what gets you in cap hell.

Also, never understood the argument that if a guy is not good enough to be your lead superstar that it is his "fault" that the team is struggling. Iguodala is not even the highest paid player on the team...

Should the Philles have traded away Hamels because he is not a true ace? No, they went out and added an ace (or two.) Not every valuable player is a Most Valuable Player. Kobe makes 25M and Iguodala makes 13M. I'm not sure how Iguodala is some sort of failure simply because he does not play up to a top 10 NBA standard when he was paid 37th last year.

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Tray reply to tk76 on Jul 6 at 18:04
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I think that Iguodala has been somewhat of a disappointment as a scorer; he seems to have the tools to have made a bit more of himself. But overall, of course he's not a disappointment. If anything he's the opposite. When you draft an athletic wing defender, you expect him to be good, but you don't expect him to be the best perimeter defender in the league.

I understand frustration with this team lacking an offensive star. I also understand why it makes people want to pull their hair out when they see Iguodala called on to be their late game "closer.

But I don't see why that means Iguodala is the "problem" or that dealing him makes them a better team. If anything it draws into question the coaches and front office for not acquiring or using the right scorers.

To go back to the Phillies, if the brought in Halladay to pinch hit every time they needed a home run I would be angry at the manager and not the player. They do need a top of the line star. They also have good scorers on the roster. I'm not sure why Iguodala must fill either of those roles simply because he makes 13M. Was Tyson Chandler asked to be his teams major offensive weapon?

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Tray reply to tk76 on Jul 6 at 20:49
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I'm not saying he's a problem. I do think that his career on the offensive side of the ball has been a bit of a disappointment.

The Hamels' analogy is diluted by the sports' mere numbers:

baseball 9 & 25
basketball 5 & 12-13

There's a smaller margin of error in basketball personnel decisions and applications, game to game and season to season.

I agree for the most part. And am critical of Stefanski thinking a core of brand, Iguodala, Miller, Sam would be the right way to try and contend. I also see an Iguodala trade as a potential way to get the team going in the right direction.

But I'm somewhat defensive of Iguodala when he is "blamed" for hurting the team. Iguodala is one of the few positives for the team over the past 8 years- and that even takes into account his contract. But the front office has been inept and delusional and a bit unlucky. I'm glad there will be new ownership to clean house. And if that includes an Iguodala trade then so be it.

Appreciate your train of thought. I'm not far from it. But I do hold Iguodala accountable for a non-leading presentation and performance, even as I recognize his versatile talents and game contributions. Big money gotta be lead dog(s) in storms. Ed goofed twice within 32 days in the summer of 2008. Maybe the labor hiatus isn't so bad after all.

Yeah, Iguodala is probably not the greatest leader. But on the flip side I don't think he has a negative effect on team leadership/chemistry. He is not divisive- he may be a bit pouty (Pippen-like) but on the flip side he is a team player on the court and a tireless worker off of it. So that has to help team chemistry some.

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Timx reply to tk76 on Jul 6 at 20:54
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"Hard Worker"

I agree that he's got some great skills, however I don't feel like he's improved his game all that much since he entered the league. Getting to the line, free throws, three point percentage? Has he improved so much that we keep talking about his hard work?

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Dan reply to Timx on Jul 6 at 21:48
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He has improved his assist numbers (might have more to do with AIs departure) but I do think he improved his defense by a lot since his rookie year. Right now I consider him an elite defender back then I thought of him as a good defender. His FT % is pitiful and he is not a threat as a jump shooter. I thought he would have improved in that area by now.

I do think that someone who signed an 80 million dollar contract should not be 5th on the team in shots per minute.

Why not? You could argue that a guy that knows his limitations is helping his team by being judicious with his shot attempts and contributing in the other areas he is elite in. After all, isn't the whole point of the WP stat to show that every time you take a shot, whether it goes in or not, you spend a possession for your team, and every time you get a rebound, get a steal, or stop your man from scoring that you gain a possession for your team, and are thereby more productive than players who don't do those things?

I'm not disappointed in him for not taking enough jumpers. I'm disappointed in him for not improving his jump shot %. I honestly thought that he would improve his jump shooting % to a point where it would be a weapon. He's not a SG anymore, so I'm not as concerned with it.

He actually did improve his three-point percentage this past season, and he was legitimately a weapon in catch-and-shoot situations (46/117, 39.3%), he was terrible shooting from distance in other situations, though (18/80, 22.5%).

Two pretty amazing stats from Iguodala this year. The first is that he only committed 109 personal fouls despite guarding the guys he was guarding, and guarding them well. The second is that he didn't draw a single charge. That's shocking.

Point of reference on the fouls, DeMarcus Cousins committed 223 more fouls than Iguodala in 168 fewer minutes (Cousins also turned the ball over 150 more times than Iguodala, which is just funny).

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Dan reply to Brian on Jul 6 at 23:01
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Again, I don't think it's a huge issue. The local media makes it sound as if he's an abysmal shooter. How does his shooting compare to that of Granger, Kevin Martin or Monta? Is there any way of knowing what his 3pt % would be if he didn't chuck up so many shots at the buzzer?

One thing about Igoudala I can't stand- His cross over move where he drags his ankle on the floor. uggh. I thought it was a one time thing against ORL but I've seen him do it before.

To address the Andre Iguodala talks: I'm for the fact that Andre is certainly one of the best players on this team, if not he is the best. I also believe that we can't be mad at Andre for taking the contract that was given to him. I know I would take that money if it were offered to me. It's not his fault that management decided that Andre was worth that much.

Is he overpaid? Maybe but as some other comments said, his contract is not the reason the Sixers are stuck in the middle of nowhere. I think if the Sixers had a better efficient scorer, Andre would not be facing as many critics. I always look at how well he did next to Kevin Durant in the FIBA last summer. Brand was suppose to be the top scorer but he's had a bumpy start with the team. Andre's cool with me.

Every few weeks there are new commenters who come in here and recycle the same arguments against Iguodala. There should be a seperate thread for them ala the Ty Lawson/Jrue Holiday situation.

Remember, we judge ourselves by our virtues, others by their actions. Please stop saying that Andre doesn't "care". No one knows anything about that...

If you want players who look like they are giving 110%, go to your local YMCA and watch the hoop dreams in action. Or just watch college basketball (gets worse every year in my opinion).

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Dan reply to T McL on Jul 6 at 21:59
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Is there really any other debatable Sixers topic other than Igoudala?

New topic:

Doug Collins is overrated. He benefited from not being Eddie Jordan. 2 season prior we were 41-41 under Dileo. He prefers slow, white centers that can "space the floor" as opposed to centers that can rebound, block shots, and defend. He approved in getting rid of Dalembert and he drafted Nikola friggin Vucevic. No center has flourished under him before. The team faltered down the stretch and we lost at least 6 games where he had at least a 10 point lead in the 4th quarter. That's a a sign of a bad coach. He didn't play Toni Battie enough in the playoffs. He doesn't seem interested in acquiring a good center. He told Thad that he has a future as a SF.

Dan, those are all interesting points on Collins. His opinions on Vucevic certainly reinforce some of those points as well. I liked him all season long though, and his press conferences were always insightful. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, but what you bring up merits concern.

The Igoudala- Hamels comparison is pretty decent. If baseball was played twice a week and only one starting pitcher was necessary, would we be world series contenders with Hamels as our pitcher? Probably not. Would we still be a top 4 team in the NL? ehhh that's debatable.


08' is the exception when he was a beast and we had Rollins, Chase, and Howard in their primes.


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