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Comparing the 76ers Two Best Bench Guys

i'll be thrilled if he resigns for 8m.

I pretty much agree with this whole post. Especially Lou's defense being so maddening I don't even want to talk about it (the dude just doesn't care about D). Nicely done!

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deepsixersuede on Jul 25 at 8:09
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The 2 biggest differences ,to me, with these guys is Lou will do his thing no matter who he plays with or who coaches him but Thad has to be coached up more and with Lou he is what he is where Thad may get better.

If our #1 draft pick's rebounding translates to the n.b.a. can Thad be looked at by Collins as Brand's replacement in 2 years? As Rich points out the team defended well with him on the floor and if Iggy, Jrue and Turner succeed together maybe having a quick, active p.f. makes more sense than a banger we all wish would replace Elton.

I hope 7 to 9 million gets him and the fact new owners are in place without ties to Thad I feel they will be less likely to feel the need to overpay. Unless Doug uses his best "used car salesman" pitch to sway them.

Thad is easily a better player to me. Thad can give very efficient number without having to dominate the ball like Lou has to. As much as people say Thad is one demential, Lou is even more so. Thad gives you production on the offensive boards, Thad gives you decent on defense and he gives you hustle, all three things Lou doesn't.

I always thought the Sixers should have extended Thads contract after the 09-10 season. They really could have lo-balled him after the disastrous season he had.

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eddies' heady's reply to KellyDad on Jul 25 at 9:44
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As a counter to what you said Thad gives - Lou can shoot three's, Lou can get to the line at will (no pun intended), and Lou can get his own shot off using the dribble, without mentioning he can set guys up off of his penetration with dishes in the paint. Thad does none of these.

Lou shoots 3's at about the same rate is Iggy, and only 2 percentage points above Turner, a guy you say has no 3 point shot to speak of.

Lou has the ability to set up guys off penetration, but the problem is he doesn't and never will. He doesn't drive enough, but when he does drive, it's with the intent to shoot, period. If he actually does pass off a drive, it's only to bail himself out, never to set anyone else up.

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eddies' heady's reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 10:57
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This convo is pertaining to Thad and Lou, don't know how Andre or Evan have any bearing here.

I would suggest you watch approx. 80 games this coming year as to not continue spewing falsehoods contained in your 2nd paragraph.

You're a good parody though...

If you say Lou can shoot 3's, and you say Turner has no 3-point shot, when they shoot close to the same 3-point percentage, it indicates a hypocrisy on your part. End of message.

Oh and thanks for throwing in the classic eddie's heady's "You're an idiot and maybe if you'd actually watch the games you'd be as smart as I am" condescension. Perhaps one day you'll find the ability to discuss the Sixers without demeaning fellow fans, but I'm not optimistic.

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eddies' heady's reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 11:40
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Paranoid much?

Seeing what Lou Will does or does not do on the floor doesn't make you smart. Nor an idiot. Just an unbiased astute observer.

And please stop with the "Turner shot this percentage" from three premise. The guy took a whopping 44 three's the whole year; Lou Will shot 250+. Care to guess what Turner's percentage would have been had he chucked up anywhere close to as many as Lou did? I'm not optimistic.

Funny how 44 shots was enough for you to declare he has no 3-point shot.

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jsmoove reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 16:46
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Didn't Herb Magee all but declare that also? Doesn't seem to matter how many he shot to him.

Herb said he needs to work on his off-hand but he actually said he has a good shot (although I doubt he would ever say otherwise about a paying customer haha). Turner was draining one-handed shots all the way to the 3-point line when they started their lessons.

Also, my point wasn't that Turner is a great 3-point shooter (although I do think he's a good one). I was merely pointing out that eddie's heady's was praising Lou as a good 3-point shooter, when in fact Lou shoots only a couple percentage points higher from 3 than Turner, whom eddie's heady's regularly derides as a completely inept 3-point shooter. His response that Turner has taken only 44 shots was truly entertaining, since he had already made his decision on Turner not being able to shoot the 3 based on those very same 44 shots (actually he based it on his first roughly 15 threes if I remember correctly).

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Jeff reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 20:49
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Not to mention, Lou is a career 33% three point shooter, which is less than league average. If one would watch say 80 games, they might come to the conclusion that Lou shooting threes is not the best option within an offense.

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eddies' heady's reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 21:21
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Y'all some funny mugs....lol! You'd be good republicans, if not already, with the constant spin - "(I was merely pointing out that eddie's heady's was praising Lou as a good 3-point shooter)" Yeah, I really did "praise" Lou as a 3-point shooter didn't I?

I merely countered that Lou can shoot the three more capably than Thad and the Turner apologists spread like termites. And to think, I'm accused of derailing threads with ET talk. heh

And for the record, (have to correct the spin again) I didn't base my decision that Turner can't shoot the three ball on those sacred 44 shots that you hold so close to the vest. I based on his reluctance to take wide open ones and his funky flawed form.

Define capable, please. Thad has a higher career three point percentage than Lou. It's usually a good thing to do a little research in order to strengthen your argument.

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eddies' heady's reply to Jeff on Jul 26 at 7:53
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Seriously? Like, really? Well, ok ....

- having the ability or capacity for

- able or having the skill (to do something)

Now, that was some funny chit right there!! Maybe it'd be a good thing to understand context by having knowledge of word meanings to grasp understanding of one's argument. That wasn't hard to do, you know?

...unbelieveable, is this still part of the spin?...

I see, you beat around the bush to avoid admitting that you are wrong.

+1

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eddies' heady's reply to Jeff on Jul 26 at 22:04
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Wrong? You're not serious, you're just goading now.

If I'm wrong, then tell me this - if the team needs a three, who do you want taking it - Thad or Lou?

And if I'm wrong, as you purport, then explain this - why did Doug Collins permit Lou to shoot 250+ 3-pointers yet only encouraged Thad to shoot a measly 22?

You asked for the definition, I gave it to you, you tell me who's more "capable"?

Yeah, you're incapable of ever being wrong. I can see that now.

Nice job using semantics to change your argument. You said Lou was more capable than Thad at shooting threes. Yet, Thad has a higher career three-point percentage, indicating that you're (dare I say) wrong.

And to answer your question directly (since I'm now arriving at the conclusion that you're a troll who understands very little about basketball, and comes on here to have senseless word battles with people rather than actually engaging in discussion), Lou shouldn't be shooting threes. More so, Lou shouldn't be shooting a lot of threes. One of the few instances where I disagree with Collin's coaching techniques was with his in-game decisions concerning the relatively long leash he gave to Lou. At times, he wouldn't pull him out of games when he was clearly hurting the team.
As for Thad, Collins wanted him positioned where he was most effective. You can argue that neither Thad nor Lou should be shooting threes, as I've pointed out that both are below league average. Thad, however, is very effective at scoring his points around the rim via put-backs and beating PF's off the dribble, etc. Lou is effective at creating his own shot, but he can sometimes hurt the team when he takes bad shots (i.e. off-balance long-twos and ill-advised threes).

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eddies' heady's reply to Jeff on Jul 27 at 8:00
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I thought you were going to answer the question directly? Yet, you conveniently failed to. Should I ask it again?

You and I know the reason you didn't answer it is because the answer is Lou and then you'd be admitting that Lou is, in fact, more capable.

Talk about senseless word battles .....

Still want to "directly" answer it?

Yep, troll.

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Jeff reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 16:55
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burn

That was a point I was trying to convey. Lou is a good bench player so it's lazy to say 'He sucks.' I will say that even though he has the ability to set up others, he doesn't do it.

You must not watch the games! :)

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jul 25 at 21:28
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How can you say that Lou doesn't do that when he averages 5.2 assists per 36? He's not just stumbling into that many assists without setting guys up with dishes off his penetration like he did routinely this past year. Jrue averages 6.6 assists per 36 as a comparison. I don't think you'd say that Jrue didn't set anyone up while achieving those numbers. Biases are too much in play here to say "he doesn't/never does it".

Well, maybe "never" sets anyone up is a little strong, but honestly I don't think it's a bias to say Jrue's assists and Lou's assists are often very different.

The first thing I would say is look at both of their usage rates. Lou better average 5 assists per 36 with the amount of possessions he uses.

Also, look at how the offense performs with both of them in the game. With both players being primary ball-handlers, I would say Jrue is better at making his teammates better from looking at the stats. Which is true of course from what we are watching out there.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jul 25 at 23:54
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Sure, Jrue's assists are different from Lou's assists

Sure, Jrue's better at making his teammates better

But ... you said Lou has the ability and "doesn't do it", and that's just not true. And as much as you love to dig up numbers, they bare out that it's not true either. A guy doesn't accumulate over 5 assists per 36 by chance or being fortunate that whomever he passes it to on the perimeter knocks down a jumper.

There's also a good reason why lou doesnt average 36 minutes a game. He's an adept passer, but he's not good at running an offense.

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mchezo reply to Rich on Jul 25 at 23:57
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What I really don't get about all the vitrol spewed at lou concerning his game is that he is doing exactly what the sixers asked him to do. He scores and gets the ball to players in their spots. His defense is very much improved over last year. If you compare his per to opponent per (check 82games) he does much better than his opponent when he is on the floor. He has a high usage rate because that how the sixers want him to play that way. He does an excellent job at doing exactly what the sixers ask him to do. How can you fault him for that?

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eddies' heady's reply to mchezo on Jul 26 at 7:57
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Because ..... usage rates are more important than what your coach is actually asking you to go on the floor and do. Summed up - biases.

You know for someone who gets mad at what people say about him, you are very matter-of-fact in telling people that they are biased.

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Rich reply to Rich on Jul 26 at 9:24
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And don't take the word 'every' as 100 percent of the time literally. You are still hung up on the word 'never' above when I addressed that point.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jul 26 at 21:54
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Mad? huh? lol .. ok ...

"And don't take the word 'every' as 100 percent of the time literally. You are still hung up on the word 'never' above when I addressed that point."

Huh? 'Every'? Who said every? And who's taking it literally?

And no, maybe you should read again. No one's hung up on the word 'never'. And no, you didn't address the point. You clearly said "he doesn't do it". I called you on it and quoted you saying "he doesn't do it". You then drifted off on types of assists between Jrue vs Lou and drifted even further bringing up usage rates and then went into left field with which player makes their teammates better. When the issue at hand was Lou setting others up and I gave you your favorite of hard numerical evidence that Lou does set others up since you admitted he possesses the ability but for whatever reason stated "he doesn't do it".

You've got access to Synergy, look it up and see him do it. I'm positive he showed more of that this past year. If saying "he doesn't do it" isn't a bias, then help me understand what it is then.

You are still hung up on me saying he doesn't do it. Fine, he gets some assists and I was surprised and off on that (which I conceded earlier, work on the reading comprehension please), but in no means does he run an offense well. That's not a bias, it's an opinion.

Honestly usage rate and role on the team are very related things. The coach gives him the keys to start the offense, and he takes the ball and takes a lot of shots and uses a lot of possessions for himself. Do you not agree with that?

Let me ask you something. Do you think he runs the offense better than Jrue? That was the point I was making.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jul 27 at 7:54
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First, yes I agree he takes a lot of possessions and uses them for himself. But this is where I think the rub is with him - Doug lets him "start" and obviously wants him to "finish" the offense. The reason I believe this is because of how often and consistently he did this the whole year with Doug not yanking him ala a short leash. You're admitting yourself that usage rate and role on the team are related, so if he's getting his shots up, whether before or after getting others involved, this seems to be what Doug wants from him or is asking him to do.

Second, no, I don't think he runs the offense better than Jrue, and never broached that. That wasn't the point being discussed even though you're claiming it was the one you were trying to make. The matter at hand was that Lou doesn't set others up even though he possesses the ability.

You're quick to interject numbers on a usual basis so it's interesting to me that in the span of a day and a half you go from tossing out Lou "doesn't set others up" to now saying "fine" he gets some assists and you're "surprised" by it. For a guy that thrives on numbers and metrics to always back things up, the only explanation I could come up with to explain such a falsehood being thrown out was bias. Or maybe a willful blind eye.

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Rich reply to mchezo on Jul 26 at 9:19
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Very fair points, and part of the article was trying to figure out why I feel different about two similar players.

I will say one thing though. I think part of the reason people fault Lou is because if he was asked to do anything else, he couldn't do it. Fair or not. His usage rate is an important stat. Collins is asking him to keep the 2nd offense running, not to shoot everytime. That's his decision and many times it works, others it goes down in flames.

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Rich reply to mchezo on Jul 26 at 20:13
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Just looked at this again actually. What do you mean "Get the balls to players in their spots?" That sounds more like Jrue, not Lou.

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eddies' heady's on Jul 25 at 9:41
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I think Lou played respectable defense for a good portion of the year last year. At times, he was noticeably better than Jrue on that end and Doug rewarded him by keeping him out there. He also involved his teammates more and passed/dished off more than usual, setting guys up for easy looks in the paint.

And I'd argue that Lou was just as vital, if not more than Thad, just from how bad we looked as a team/bench when Lou missed those games at the end of the season and him being gimpy in the playoffs. The lack of his presence was very pronounced during these set of games.

Along with Thad having his weaknesses exposed of no respectable jumper and limited offensive moves (no post up game) in that Heat series. I've never seen him look so bewildered when getting the ball at either elbow for a face-up isolation opportunity. He was flat out stymied and rather invisible. Really disappointing as I'd never seen a team take him away so effectively like that.

I agree that Thad looked very pedestrian in the Heat series, and it did make me fear that perhaps Thad is a classic regular season player who can dominate against the general lack of regular season defense in the NBA, but can't cut it when teams actually start defending in the playoffs.

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Steve reply to stoned81 on Jul 25 at 12:10
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Yeah but I don't think we would have been able to make the playoffs if it hadn't been for Thad. Also, against Miami, who didn't look pedestrian other than Jrue?

Brand was a beast in all but game 2. Turner looked very solid when he was out there. But definitely a fair point that Thad helped us get to the playoffs. I would re-sign Thad at a max of $8M per year for 4 years. Just don't want to go higher. Getting us a good playoff seed is worth $8M a year, but doing nothing in the playoffs makes him not worth any more than that.

Posting Joel Anthony up wouldn't have been the answer.

Joelle Anthony was a nightmare for Thad. A guy like that or Ibaka, mayebe Biyombo in the future, can completely take him out of his game. Against most teams though, he will get his points. Needs to increase his offensive repertoire if he wants to be a guaranteed playoff weapon. We'll see.

I'm not sure if paying Thad $8-8.5 million per season is a good idea. When Brand's contract expires in 2013, we'll be committed to $31 million with Iguodala, Thad, and Turner's contracts. We would still need to resign Jrue and will probably not leave us with enough to money to sign another stud free agent (I don't know if there would be any available that year).

I don't want to give up on Thad just yet. The boy is so young and a player can really hike up his value in a season. For example last year, we wouldn't trade Iggy straight up for Eric Gordon. Now the opposite is true in that the Clippers wouldn't trade Gordon for Iggy. Perhaps in a year, Thad will really hike up his value and this extension could look like a bargain...

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Tom Moore on Jul 25 at 22:45
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Elton Brand video highlights from 2010-11 season:

http://ow.ly/5Nbmq

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Tom Moore on Jul 25 at 23:39
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Better link for Elton Brand video interview highlights from 2010-11 season:

http://ow.ly/5Nd9v


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