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Put It To A Vote.

Not sure people saw it. Saw it on the espn crawl while watching some poker. SI.com has an article where Kobe says if 50/50 gets a season done then he'd sign off on it. I think thats the biggest name to come out in favor of that even split if any players have?

I haven't seen any TV all weekend, was in Philly for most of it running after a couple of kids. I'm kind of shocked and heartened if he said that, it only takes one big crack to completely blow the Pierce contingent right out of the water, and Kobe could be it.

I spent a lot of time learning JavaScript and japery which will come in handy if a season ever starts (prediction contests for standings for instance)

But I was just up late channels surfing and had good timing catching the press conference of the nba exactly at the beginning

This Si.com article mentions the Kobe thing

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/web/COM1191903/index.htm

That Bryant comment might be significant because of his relationship with Fisher. It's quite obvious that Fisher is the one of the negotiating team that is ready to accept a worse offer and Hunter and Kessler are the ones undermining the idea of giving up more. And that's significant because Hunter and Kessler couldn't care less about the season, they don't gain anything from it being played, whereas Fisher is a player.

Would be great to see Kobe shut Pierce up.

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tk76 reply to stoned81 on Nov 6 at 21:47
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Kobe and a few other select vets (like Chauncey) have enough security to basically say what they feel. The other guys are to concerned about their reputation and their peers to do more than regurgitate the union stance.

KG and Pierce also fall into that category- unfortunately their speaking up has made them look the fool IMO.

Good points, agree on all.

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Nov 6 at 23:32
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I would love to hear one of the young stars [Durant?] step up and say the same as Kobe, somebody with a stake in the future with this deal. As far as the union heads failing, as Brian says, I disagree if they accept this deal because it seems they won on a lot of system issues.

But if Hunter sways the players to pass on this than, yes, I would agree with Brian.

My point is if the union leadership is saying we can't even take this deal to the players for a vote, then they're failing by definition because this is really their deadline. The season hangs in the balance and they're saying we haven't been able to broker a deal that's acceptable.

What happens if other members of the union speak out? They're shunned? The owners won't care and the owners write the checks. They're in the union it's not like they're crossing a picking line, they have a right and responsibility to express their opinion. If leadership doesn't know how its members REALLY feel then leadership might not be representing the majority of the players.

Did Kessler's comments piss off anyone else? "Not on Fisher's watch! Not on Hunter's watch!" Give me a break.

Will the players get any paychecks?

Not on their watch....

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 7 at 0:42
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These high profile lawyers are egomaniacs. Probably doesn't bode well for Kessler's reputation that he's been absolutely beaten down in the negotiations. They've been fleeced, time to just accept the reality of the situation and move on.

Fisher seems to be the only guy ready to accept his failures. He deserves credit for that. Hunter was too embarrassed to show his face after the number went down to 50 on Saturday. Left Fisher to answer to the media on his own, what a creep.

LeBron has been mum on the current status as far as I know.

LBJ + Kobe endorsing the 50/50 reality check might be enough star power to get the rank and file to speak their minds in support of a deal.

I'm pretty sure I read that LeBron was leaving voice mails for people saying 53 or bust a while back.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 7 at 1:07
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Yeah, he was at one of the labor meetings around the time KG went off. But now that reality is setting in, he hasn't spoken up. He wasn't on the decertification conference call with best buddy D Wade.

I really think they have a silent majority of players that will accept the deal. It's irresponsible that Hunter and co. won't even bring up the possibility of a vote.

Anyone else think Jordan is potentially damaging his brand with this leading of the hardliners? Especially if this think continues to get uglier and he becomes the face of a missed season?

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Marcus reply to johnrosz on Nov 7 at 1:58
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No IMO one thing has nothing to do with the other Jordan brand will be good regardless

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mchezo on Nov 7 at 7:27
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I hope the union votes to decertify. the owners have been trying to strong arm the union all along. they have not been negotiating in good faith. Its pathetic that you guys are all pro ownership when its the players that make the league. Every owner can be replaced by some other rich dude or group of investors. How are you going to replace a kobe, lebron, durant or wade? F*ck the owners. You guys are constantly insulting the players' intelligence and referring to them as idiots because they want to negotiate in good faith. you basically see they players as group of lucky, spoiled individuals who should be happy they get paid so much to play a game and who should allow the owners to walk all over them. whatever.

If the players "make" the league, then surely they can just start their own new league?

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deepsixersuede reply to mchezo on Nov 7 at 7:50
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If you don't think the system needed changes than I totally disagree with you. There are haves and havenots and under Snider we were somewhere in the middle. I expected a walkover by the owners frankly, but this deal still has exceptions, fairly long guarenteed deals and not a hard cap. I think Stern, even though I at times don't like his methods, is being level headed and not heavyhanded.

So you are saying that you would prefer that there is no basketball this season? Because that is what certification does. And that would help who, exactly? Agents?

I am not pro player or pro union. In fact I'm probably equally frustrated with both sides. But if the owners offer is so bad, why would it result in the players be in better position than those in the NFL and NHL?

In labor negotiations it is not about who is "right" or what someone deserves. It is about power and compromise. If you don't like how the owners have leverage than complain to congress who gave them the anti-trust exemption that consolidates their power.

Think about it- the owners don't "deserve" to make millions and the players don't deserve to make what they make. Both sides are privileged beyond belief. So when they whine it comes off as hollow. They are dividing a huge sum of money. They each have a degree of leverage to maximize their side's cut. It is a fight over money- not truth, justice and the American way.

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mchezo reply to tk76 on Nov 7 at 17:07
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That is exactly what I am saying. Why isn't anyone taking the owners to task for not negotiating? The union worked like hell to get the contract that they now have. Why should they give it all back? They have made all of the concessions in this negotiation. You guys talk about Kobe speaking out like thats some noble gesture. He is selling out. He knows his window is closing and he does not give a hoot about the players of the future. Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen are not in it for themselves. They want the best deal for the future players in the league. Stern has put a gag order on the owners by imposing fines for public statements because he knows that many of the owners want to compromise with the players. But you guys are calling for other players to speak out and not support the union. Also, an attorney has to bring all offers of sttlement to his client but in a collective bargaining situation, the individual gives up some of his rights to bargain so that the union can speak for its members. Otherwise, unions would be totally ineffective at bargaining. The leaders of a union do not have a duty to bring all offers that they to their members. Nobody is paying money to see the owners.

I really have a problem with the whole workers of the world unite line when we're talking about guys making obscene guaranteed contracts. This isn't about Garnett looking out for rookies, this is about ego, and this is about superstars thinking they should be the boss, not the owners.

There's an offer on the table, it's as good as it's going to get before the season is lost, if the union leadership thinks it doesn't warrant a vote, then fine. Just come out and say we give up, there won't be a season. We don't want to be paid, our egos are more important than that. Then decertify and see if the courts agree with you. If they do, maybe you'll bring down the entire league, make it disband, and then you can go about trying to find a real job, with a real boss. See how you like that. Or you can sign off on the deal that's been negotiated that gives you a win on EVERY SYSTEM ISSUE from hard cap, to exceptions to bird rights, and has the revenue split at a level where the league isn't bleeding money and we can get back to playing basketball.

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mchezo reply to tk76 on Nov 8 at 10:10
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That is exactly what I am saying. Why isn't anyone taking the owners to task for not negotiating? The union worked like hell to get the contract that they now have. Why should they give it all back? They have made all of the concessions in this negotiation. You guys talk about Kobe speaking out like thats some noble gesture. He is selling out. He knows his window is closing and he does not give a hoot about the players of the future. Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen are not in it for themselves. They want the best deal for the future players in the league. Stern has put a gag order on the owners by imposing fines for public statements because he knows that many of the owners want to compromise with the players. But you guys are calling for other players to speak out and not support the union. Also, an attorney has to bring all offers of sttlement to his client but in a collective bargaining situation, the individual gives up some of his rights to bargain so that the union can speak for its members. Otherwise, unions would be totally ineffective at bargaining. The leaders of a union do not have a duty to bring all offers that they to their members. Nobody is paying money to see the owners.

They've made all the conessions have they?

The system is broken - the owners started saying we need a much larger percentage of the BRI, a hard cap, no exceptions, etc...the owners HAVE compromised and in the court of public opinion they have compromised A LOT more than the players, and then they players say 'we've come to 51%' and yet they ahven't - it's 52%, just 1% of that goes to retired players.

The facts and the PR are BOTH on the owners side. Their new offer is pure compromise from their initial offer and their latest offer before this one.

The players 'fought' hard to get guaranteed contracts that even if they SUCK after signing them they still get paid. The players 'fought hard' to allow teams to over spend, the players 'fought hard' to earn more and more money while risking no money in league.

Let's ignore the economics changing, the fracturing sports landscape, the numerous television and entertainment options. Your thinking is EXACTLY what's wrong with all unions in the United States, they never think they should give anything back AT ALL, they just want more more more

Damn the man, save the empire.

There are about 450 players in the NBA
There are currently 29 owners, and one of them wants to sell their team but no one is buying.

Players are much more easily replaced than owners.

Every generation thinks their players are the best and the next generation loves their players.

There's a larger pool of players to choose from than there are owners. If you want to rant and rave go right ahead, but don't 'f the owners' since their the ones risking ALL THE MONEY once a player signs a contract

Marc Stein reporting that the decert fools want to have a vote by Tuesday night and feel they can get 30%. If they get that 30%, the season is over folks, and it's on the players more than the owners in my opinion.

I'm not sure about that, they'd still be about 100 players shy of actually having the numbers to pass the vote. If they're having problems getting the 30%, then that would tell a rational group of people they need to cut a deal, but neither side is particularly rational right now.

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Jeff reply to Brian on Nov 7 at 11:55
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Let's say the union gets 30% of players to vote on a decertification proposal - after 45 days if a majority of players don't agree to decertify what happens then? Do the owners have all the leverage? Can the players try to make another push to decertify? Does Billy Hunter get fired? Do I start watching replays of 76ers games on youtube?

If they get 30 percent, I think you can kiss the season goodbye. If they don't get the de-certification vote then we're just back where we are right now (I think) and the players are more of a mess.

I believe agents are pushing de-certification more than players, and that's a problem in this negotiation. You didn't hear a whole lot of agent noise in the NFL talks did you? I don't recall hearing the agents being a major player. The agents are self serving bottom feeders (necessary bottom feeders mostly but let's not get into the fact that th pro leagues need to start penalizing the agents for misbehavior on the college ranks or it will never stop) who shouldn't be part of these talks at all.

They care about their commission and that's all. Agents are just really well paid car salesmen.

That's not true. They also get money from endorsement deals and many other venues. And, obviously, they care about keeping a client until they're next contract.

They want their clients happy, although obviously for their own personal reasons.

They want their clients happy, although obviously for their own personal reasons.

Which is their commission, whatever they do, it's about their commission plain and simple. Jerry Maguire doesn't exist.

Whatever their motivation, they have no place in CBA negotiations in my opinion.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7202117/nbpa-mandatory-meeting-player-representatives-tuesday-sources-say

Not sure about this, but lawyers are required to present offers to their clients no matter how bad they are right?

I find it ridiculous that 2-3 guys are deciding what the entire union should see and decide upon, that's irresponsible.

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Jeff reply to GoSixers on Nov 7 at 11:49
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I'm really hoping that players like Kobe step up in the next day or so and push for a vote. This may actually be the best deal the players are going to get with or without a partial season.

for anyone that wants to read about basketball and not lockout stuff, this is a scouting report by Sebastian Pruiti on Vucevic

http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/11/07/draft-pick-scouting-report-16-nikola-vucevic/

That's probably the best article on Vucevic outside of the draftexpress draft coverage. I respect Pruiti quite a bit and hopefully he is right with his generally positive scouting report on Vucevic.

If I were Jrue I would be hearing "pick and pop" in my nightmares... If only the Sixers could find an athletic big who can roll and finish in traffic. Jrue will be limited as a PG until the Sixers find that complement.

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Jeff reply to tk76 on Nov 7 at 11:57
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I believe the Voose can roll and get his layup blocked, so we're about half-way there.

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Cin reply to tk76 on Nov 7 at 15:28
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I'd say the lack of a pick and roll partner affects Turner more than Holiday. That was a major part of his offense in college.

I have a question:

If there is no season do the owners get to keep 100% of the TV revenue (as opposed to the players getting their cut?)

IIRC, teams are getting their national TV paychecks even though there are no games. How profitable would it be for the owners for there to be no season at all?

That's an interesting question. I assume you still have the staff to pay, which isn't cheap in a lot of situations: Thorn, Collins, assistant coaches, etc. The Sixers don't own their stadium, so they aren't paying upkeep on a mostly unused arena. They've got ancillary staff, like PR guys, stuff like that.

I'm almost certain that not playing games will actually cost some owners less money than playing them, we're talking about the teams that are just bleeding money, but I doubt it's anywhere close to a majority of teams. Who knows. I'd love to know how the lease on stadiums works for teams who don't own their arenas, and whether they're at least partially on the hook for that expense.

Can you buy official NBA merchandise with current players' names on the back right now? If not, that's a big hit.

I would have thought no (have ou watched NBA TV recently, it's like the history of the NBA channel)

But a quick look at the sixers nba store jersey section indicates iguodala and turner jerseys can be purchased.

SI.com reporting:

According to a source involved in the push for decertification, the numbers needed to move it to a vote (30 percent of the league's players must sign a petition, or approximately 120 players) is expected to be in place before Wednesday. And if Stern follows through on his threat and drops the BRI to 47 percent, the source said the commissioner will have made the process of garnering support all that much easier.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sam_amick/11/06/nba.players.next.move/index.html

Like watching a train wreck.

It is interesting that we are still many weeks away from an actual "drop dead date" for the season, and yet everything seems to be coming to a head this week.

I think the league would cancel the season 'sooner' this time than last time - and we're approaching the 'drop dead' date for games on christmas which is a big deal in the NBA

If we lose the season, I really hope the players wind up decertifying and the league voids every one of their contracts. At least the resultant "fantasy draft" free-for-all would be interesting.

Well I don't think you'll see a voiding of all contracts, I mean does the heat really want to void the lebron contract for instance - a lot of rookie deals as well are still deals - i'd bet about 90% would be voided (that's a fun experiment - run through every team see who would and wouldn't be voided)

I'm doing some work on comments today, that's really the first step toward a larger project. Sorry if things don't work/look the way they should, just hang in there.

test

OK, so the changes are in effect, even if the display isn't completely done.

Basically, this is how it works. When you go to an entry, you drop a cookie which marks the most-recent comment. When you come back to that entry, any new entries since the last time you were there will be marked as unread. Also, when you click on the comment count from the home page, you will automatically be taken to the oldest, unread comment in the thread instead of the first thread. so if you left a conversation off at the 200th comment, you'll be taken to #201, instead of having to scroll all the way down there. The cookies last a week, which seems sufficient to me.

Anyway, try it out, let me know what you think. btw, "read" comments will display exactly as they used to. Also, this isn't tied into your commenting account, it's purely based on the computer you're using, so if you read a bunch of comments at work and then go home and check the entry, the comments will be labelled as unread.

I like the unread thing - that's pretty darn hepful thanks - but if you can control the 'dividing' bar - the yellow is kind of bright :)

(PS if you want to email me the unread graphic I can try and smooth it out a bit

The yellow is changed. The image I just threw together to get something in there, it's part of a bigger thing, just the first step, then I'll worry about the display issues.

alright cool, and the grey is an improvement (if you have the ability to mess with the opacity of the divider it might work even better as it'll be there but 'lighter' ;) If you need some photoshop for graphics, let me know

Will do. I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my time, but I had an interesting idea and thought I'd put it into practice.

Never a waste of time if it's something you enjoy doing

waste meaning it might make game threads much better, but we won't be having any game threads until late 2012.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 7 at 23:24
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Did someone say 'game threads'?!

I'm using Chrome. It does jump to the last unread post, but I cannot see any difference marking whether I have read a post or not.

Did you see it when you came back to the thread after posting that?

this is what it should look like. You may have to hold down shift and hit refresh once to update your stylesheet. It may be cached.

I hit shift/refresh.

Post something and I'll let you know if it is marked as unread.

Something.

It works.

Cool. yeah, I decided to tone it down a little so it wouldn't hit you over the head if you came into a thread late and saw 300 "Unread" balloons all over the page.

IMO I'd tone it down even more. But either way, it's a good idea.

Ideally (not sure if you can do it) the background is a slightly different color when it's unread? Not sure if you an mess with css like that

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johnrosz on Nov 7 at 18:33
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Appears that the union is leaking oil on the unity front.

Steve Blake is calling players around the league enouraging them to request a vote on the current proposal.

Kevin Martin says he wants to accept the current deal, not worth losing years salary over a percentage point of BRI.

Amick also reports that 2 prominent agents have advised 19 of their players to take deal.

Well, I always thought one of sterns goals in this was to break the union and while it may not be fully broken it's crumbling

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 7 at 18:37
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Kevin Martin isn't exactly the mega star I wanted to come out advocating the deal alongside Kobe, but it's a start. Hope to hear more big name players say it's time to deal before the night is over.

Stern also looking to meet with union one more time before Wed deadline.

This all sounds good, but I don't know if I want to get my hopes up.

Neither is steve blake - but I don't care about the superstars, and I don't think the rank and file do either - super stars are making 3-4 times what everyone else is making, they have marketing deals that most players don't, they are more capable of missing an entire years salary than a guy like steve blake.

Are the rookies who haven't signed contracts yet part of the union already?

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 7 at 18:46
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don't think so because they aren't under contract

Anyone catch stern on Sports center?

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johnrosz on Nov 7 at 18:45
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USA Today writer J. Michael Faulgoust (never heard of em either...)

"Person w/knowledge of discussions says Fisher is concerned that despite warnings a lot of players didnt save $$ #nbalockout"

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johnrosz on Nov 7 at 20:11
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Depressed Fan favorite LaMarcus Aldridge on board with 50 50

Wow, I'm surprised we're hearing this so quickly. So Kobe, Martin, Blake, Aldridge. Has anyone else said anything?

This is great stuff. My prediction is the league and players meet on Wednesday, the league offers the players a token concession (something virtually meaningless) so Fisher can save face, they take the deal back to the players, who vote on it and approve it.

Basketball is coming! I am so pumped for the Vucevic/Hawes combo!!!

Ugh, completely forgot about the Voose/Hawes combo. I vote for decertification if that's my other option.

hahahaha :)

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Rich reply to stoned81 on Nov 9 at 1:20
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I'd actually like to see the Sixers play UConn. They would win by a ton obviously, but the possibility of seeing Hawes/Vucevic get manhandled by Drummond and Oriakhi for 10 minutes of the game is intriguing.

Well, if there was ever a question as to who's winning the PR battle, Yahoo has a poll on what the players should do. 61% so far saying they should take the deal. 18% say negotiate better deal by Weds. 14% say decertify. 7% say don't take deal or decertify.

Uhoh someone has been hanging out with Speezy!!

@Jmeeks20 (Jodie Meeks) : My nap I jus took........#incredible
3 hours ago

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johnrosz on Nov 8 at 1:33
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Hawes ready to decertify, shocker...

"I would," Hawes said. "It's something that's been discussed for a while and it's at that point where they've taken our other options and they've given us an ultimatum, so I think it's time we bring something back and we throw a counterpunch."

Hawes added that he believes it's unnecessary to take Stern's proposal to a full vote of the union, saying, "He's made our decision for us. What they've done to the deal and where the deal is now, I definitely don't think it's worth voting on."

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Sharone Wright reply to johnrosz on Nov 8 at 9:38
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How is this bum the spokesman for the Sixers players? He is not even really respected on his own team. If this came from Brand, Iggy or even Lou it would carry some weight with me.

Broussard reporting on ESPN.com that up to 15 owners don't like the deal and hope the players vote against it. Supposedly 7 to 11 of them were on a conference call voicing complaints last night, only name provided (per usual) was Michael Jordan who I think ESPN loves trotting out as the only 'former player owner'

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Sharone Wright on Nov 8 at 9:37
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How is this bum the spokesman for the Sixers players? He is not even really respected on his own team. If this came from Brand, Iggy or even Lou it would carry some weight with me.

If it came from Lou I' laugh at it even more as he come off as an uneducated childish idiot at most times.

Most player reps aren't exactly the 'center' of the team.

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Sharone Wright reply to GoSixers on Nov 8 at 9:54
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I hate when I'm wrong. I looked up the player reps, and 16 of the 32 fall into the Hawes category of players who probably aren't big leaders on their own team (based solely on my speculation). I have an unnatural dislike for Hawes and that stupid look he gives the bench after making another mistake.
I disagree about Lou, though. He has respect of the players on this team. Not saying I'd want him as the PR director for my company or anything, but better than Hawes.

That's great, you disagree with me about Lou.

I didn't say anything about respect for him from the players, I said he's an immature uneducated childish fool. Whether or not he's respected by the players is irrelevant to me.

I don't like Hawes either, he's a backwoods reactionary fool who would vote for Sarah Palin for president and probably has a very large gun protection (cause it's his right you know, to abuse the most abused constitutional amendment)

At this point it doesn't matter who the reps are because according to Fisher they aren't presenting the deal to the players anyway

I just looked this up and i just saw that Dalambert was the player rep of the Kings!!!!!

Better than Cousins...

And apparently Sam is a bright guy with pretty varied interests. Not that surprising, since BB IQ and real life IQ are not all that related.

Well i don't know that much about him, but asking to be the focal point of an offense (which he did a few years ago in a sixers uniform) sounded kinda "not so bright" to me.

Hopefully i am wrong because it's very possible that the sake of the season depends on this NBPA meeting.

You're wrong - that sounds not bright in terms of basketball IQ which Sam never was.

Sam's a smart cat, he's just a stupid basketball player.

Anyone know when the players are supposed to meet?

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Nov 8 at 12:00
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That article makes me smile :)

So I guess I am on the same page as Sheridan. Not sure if that is a good thing, but at least others share my hunch.

No one expected the 98-99 lockout to end either. When it comes down to the wire, the players take the guaranteed money. I share your sentiments.

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Ryan F reply to stoned81 on Nov 8 at 12:13
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It would make me smile too if this wasn't the 10th time he's said this exact same thing. Any prediction right now is just a shot in the dark. I don't think the NBPA even knows what it is going to do next.

"I don't think the NBPA even knows what it is going to do next."

Implode?

WOnder why Sheridan can't get a job with ESPN or AP anymore :)

Seriously though - didn't like the tone of the article, pure optimism with no support other than his own opinon

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Nov 8 at 14:47
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Exactly.

I think hes just playing it safe. He is bound to get it right one of these times.

I have a hunch that there will be a deal by tomorrow and games by Dec 10th.

Of course I have not sound reasoning behind this- but don't burst my bubble. I'll go back to being grumpy on Thursday.

I've been an optimist for a while and thought the games will start on Thanksgiving, which i later revised to 1st of December. I still think the same and i expect a counter proposal by the players tomorrow which will bridge the gap in the next day or two and we we'll see a vote by the end of the week.

Yup me2, I'm with you guys. Too much dissension among the players to not make the 50/50 deal.

There are 3 sides on the players side

1. Decertify
2. Rejection
3. Approval

I'm not sure how having 3 different sides makes it more likely for half the union to approve the plan.

Heck, according to Broussard, they have the 30% to get the decertification started, so #2 and #3 have to split so that #3 has 50% + 1, but only from 70 percent of the union.

There are too many players in the room that need the money, that want to play. I think Jordan being in the 47-percent crowd has scared a lot of players into realizing that the league means business.

The union's leaks are a bunch of BS in my opinion. Of course they're going to leak that there is enough for decertification, because they are doing that for negotiating leverage. They're not going to intentionally leak that they have a majority for the 50-50 split.

Ultimately, I think money talks at the end. The majority of NBA players need the money and cannot afford a lost season. Even if they saved as they were warned (which I doubt most did), their "savings," while huge to most of us, are pennies to them. They have enormous mortgage/rent payments (not just for themselves but family and friends), they have enormous car payments, etc. Are Fisher and Hunter really going to stand by as NBA players line up at the foreclosure office because the league offered 50% instead of 52%? I just don't see any way that happens.

Thursday huh

I think you'll be grumpy by end of business Wednesday (which is 2 pm my time :) )

NBA isn't even the top news story today - it's 3rd

Jason Kapono is our player rep today? What a joke.

I'm fascinated that people care who the player rep is - like he's going to go rogue or something

I don't have much faith. This meeting if probably going to be about what the 30 team reps want, personally, more than a polling of the players they represent, I'm afraid.

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Nov 8 at 15:04
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Not concerned whatsoever. Although I'd like to think that a "representative" would be someone of value and a voice of the team. Maybe I have a bad read on him, but I though he was an afterthought.

Let's see - you've never been to a team meeting, you've never attended a practice, you don't know what the players think of Kapono as a person, nor do you probably even know how player reps are chosen or what their role is.

In short, I think you're ocmpletely off base in this

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jsmoove reply to GoSixers on Nov 8 at 17:14
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So, if he's off base in this then how off base is it to call LouWill uneducated, childish, immature and an idiot?

Let's see - I would presume you've never been to a team meeting, you've never attended a practice, never been in the locker room, and surely never been over to Lou's house for a cookout.

I recall it was you who squirms when posters here question any one thing about Andre Iguodala's personality or makeup. Yet, you are somehow 'on base' and slam LouWill like that?

Whatever you say their skipper. Thinking the players respect someone is not the same as thinking they're a fool, which louis williams displays in his twitter, his rapping, his public whateverness, his play on the court, that's enough for ME to form an opinion about his overall intelligence (not to mention he came straight out of high school so his education stopped when he was 18).

That's NOT the same as whether players respect him - if you don't see the difference then i'd have to assume you have some of the same issues that Lou does

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jsmoove reply to GoSixers on Nov 9 at 14:07
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Didn't you say above thinking the players respect someone was irrelevant to you? Well, it's irrelevant to me too in this instance. You're deflecting what I'm addressing here.

That's fine if that's 'enough for YOU' to form an opinion on Lou. But hold yourself to that same standard when others form an opinion on other players, with Andre Iguodala being one example. If others form opinions of him because he may seem aloof or distant or portray himself as having an ego, then let that be sufficient grounds for their formed opinion without condescendent tones directed at them.

Additionally, there are many success stories of individuals that only maxed out with a high school education. Not furthering one's self past high school is no threshold for being uneducated.

You're arguing apples and oranges, people argue Iguodalas ability, not his intelligence.

Seriously - I'm not going to bother continuing this because you keep switching the topic. I was talking about Lous perceived intelligence and anyone who perceives Lou as a mature intelligent human being is not someone I'm interested in talking to because to me it indicates that they don't know the definition of maturity or intelligence. And basketball intelligence is different.

As for Iguodala, most people who dislike Iguodala have irrataional pointless hatred based on an unrealistic expectation and a lack of comprehension of what his game is AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN (and it's a tired fucking argument)

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Nov 8 at 15:10
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Although I would feel better if it were Brand who would have a larger voice in a room of superduperstars, and has a large sum of money invested in the season, more so than Mr. MLE.

And how many 'super duper' stars are player reps for each team?

Off the top of my head the names i've read are anthony parker, and sam dalembert, neither of whom ARE super duper stars.

I prefer having reps who would represent the MAJORITY of the players- super duper stars tend to be able to sit out more than the MLE guy.

I think your point is 100% the opposite of who should be representing teams.

Kapono's a free agent and he's not going to get an MLE deal when free agency opens up.

Isn't Sam a free agent as well?

Yep.

I wonder if it's just coincidence, I'd think the FA's are the most impacted right away by whatever the deal ends up with

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Jeff reply to Ryan F on Nov 8 at 21:29
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Elton Brand is our player rep.

Players are done meeting, Fisher claims unanimity on rejecting the owners ultimatum - claims theyre 'willing to compromise on BRI' if other system things are fixed, but in the clip i heard, neither he nor hunter indicated what those system issues were - probably the mid level - probably the players want to make it so capped out teams (and taxed out) can continue to spend as much as they want without paying too severe a penalty.

Interesting on ESPN radio to hear two former players (one recent NFL Marcellus Wile and one less recent NBA Myckal Thompson) on different sides of it.

So yeah - doesn't sound like anything is getting done in the next 24 hours

The players don[t want anything done to address "competitiveness balance" since that would mean preventing the big spenders from circumventing the cap.

Nonsensical IMO, since the pay of players will end up being mostly dictated by BRI- so why not let the owners try and balance the playing field? But that would also keep the good players getting to play for the contenders they want and for the owners who will pamper them more. The players want unfettered access to play for the team they want- but that is part of the very problem that makes Miami, LA and Boston have an advantage.

Well if all things are equal then it's the 'ancillaries' that draw for the contract, teams in texas have the state tax advantage, miami has weather and ho's (so does LA), NY has nightlife and ho's

There are ho's in minnesota, but the weather ain't so hot

Merry Christmas.

In the ESPN story, Hunter apparently said games will be cancelled through Christmas if they don't take the deal tomorrow, also said 29 of 30 teams were represented. Are you kidding me? They couldn't get a rep from one of the teams?

Radio cut off before Hunter said that (sounded fully recovered from being so under the weather he couldn't talk Saturday night didn't he?), but that's just ridiculous. Yeah, I wanna know which team didn't show up, and I wanna know how the uninon is so unanimous when you got public comments from folks talking 50/50, talking decert, but suddenly it's all' one mind'?

You also had at least one team rep saying he wanted a vote heading into the meeting today, right? Was Blake steamrolled?

Whoever handles the players' PR is not doing any job at all.

Every day this lockout drags on is one less day for Gilbert Arenas is stealing money from a rich owner. This thing has to get settled.

Surprised we have not heard the Hibachi's take on The Great Injustice being perpetrated on the players.

Well, I mean this is about rich white guys holding them down. Gilbert just can't get a fair shake.

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Stan reply to Brian on Nov 9 at 10:16
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What's 3 million dollars to a guy who is guaranteed to make at least another 35 million?

HIs agents commission ;)

Hence why the agents are upset

Poor Dan Gilbert...

LOL

1. Gilbert overpaid for the Cavs
2. Gilbert got lucky by drafting LBJ
3. Gilbert got llucky when LBJ decided to extend with the Cavs
4. Gilbert lived off the LBJ gravy train for years without earning it.
5. Gilbert is lucky LBJ stayed as long as he did (7 years).

Gilbert is a loser

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/11/8/2547418/nba-lockout-i-dont-want-to-write-about-this-anymore

Wow. Check out this quote from a Henry Abbott piece:

There are differing opinions on this, but one expert suggests that, thanks in no small part to various tax effects, for every dollar owners lose in a lockout, the players lose six.
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johnrosz on Nov 8 at 21:52
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The Celtics didn't have a player rep present at the meeting....

KG fired up the troops and told em DON'T BACK DOWN TO THOSE RICH MOTHERFUCKERS YOU MOTHERFUCKERS. FUCKING ANYTHING IS POSSIBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

Classic. I feel like this further justifies my innate hatred for the Celtics.

Kessler is a lawyer, he only cares about the getting the best possible deal (according to him), he doesn't care about the relations between the players and the owners.

I know who he is, and I know who he works for, but every time he opens his mouth he comes off like a fool, the slavery metaphor for guys who all make more than the average american is pathetic, ridiculous, and moronic

Of course you know who he is, i meant that as an explanation why he acts the way he acts. A lot of lawyers would do anything to win, including being absolute idiots and taking all the heat on themselves. It's part of the job description IMO.

Hunter and Fisher are there to make the decision, Murphy explains the economic implications of every option and Kessler is there to do the dirty work, saving Fisher and Hunter's face in the media. The owners have a guy designated for the "dirty" work as well but they are playing the media so much better, that we are not even sure who that guy is.

Only stupid lawyers put their foot in their mouth. And this wasn't 'what it takes to win' this was 'i'm an over paid blowhard stuffed shirt and i'm about to stick my foot in my mouth, yet again, here, watch it as it happens, in slow motion even'

There are 'real' unions made up of people fighting to stay above the poverty line in some cases and you got the NBA Players lawyer rep using a slavery metaphor when even the lowest paid player is making 6 figures? That's an insanely stupid thing to do, especially when you have your 'president' talking about how it's a sad day for vendors and parking lot attendants, who don't make squadoosh.

Unions to me are a bad thing, they have way too much power and while needed in the pst aren't as needed now, and, for instance, union power and demands and lack of compromise helped lead to the destruction of the American Auto industry. (which isn't the point here I know) But to hear a 'union' of mostly millionaires talk about being plantation workers? Come on - this guy needs to be fired NOW

The situation is at the same time encouraging and sad. Encouraging, because all that talk from the NBPA after the meeting pretty much means that the players are ready to surrender, but will give it another shot.

Sad, because getting a deal done right now will probably mean we need to say goodbye to most of the competitive balance issues introduced to the CBA by the owners because the players will clearly have none of it.

The ability of "rich" teams to spend on mediocre players via the MLE, is crucial to the players because they know that without it, no matter what the actual BRI is, a much bigger portion of the total salaries will go to the star players and the medium level ones will have to settle for minimum deals.

Basically the players pretty much are simple to read, the stars want bigger BRI because it guarantees them more money, whereas everybody else is not really impacted all that much by the BRI but is heavily impacted by some of the "system" issues. The latter group is of course far bigger and will outvote the stars.

Since it's posturing it doesn't necessarily mean any of that whatsoever. Maybe the players still vote to decertify, maybe Stern meant what he said and there's no more negotiation and tonight it goes back to the 'flex cap' and 47 percent for the players.

As far as I'm concerned the players have lost most of their leverage and are being out maneuvered by the owners constantly and while they may not like their offer now, I think Stern will stick to his guns and in less than 12 hours it's going to get a lot worse for them

I think people are forgetting the true victims of this... For every player missing a paycheck there must be 15-20 friends, family and assorted hangers-on who are living off of them. Think of the sucker-fish and the shark or the lichens and moss on the tree. We should shed a tear for every last malingerer who will miss a rent payment for their subsidized lifestyle- because what did they every do to deserve this?

Someone needs to write a story about the poor NBA remoras.

Thought I would share this from the Wikipedia entry on remoras- since it seems fitting:

"The relationship between remoras and their perfect hosts is most often taken to be one of commensalism, specifically phoresy. The host they attach to for transport gains nothing from the relationship, but also loses little. The remora benefits by using the host as transport and protection and also feeds on materials dropped by the host. There is controversy whether a remora's diet is primarily leftover fragments, or the feces of the host."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remora

Here's what I think the owners should do

Go to the players and say, ok, here's your 51% of the BRI, however we just need to 'tweak the system' to make the BRI more fair to everyone.

The players basically want to maintain the broken system that allows teams to pretty much spend as much as they want...

Yeah, that's the rub. The guaranteed BRI split is kind of a smokescreen for the players side. They don't care if the guarantee is 50% if the system encourages the owners to push the actual split up 55%.

Which for all their posturing means they don't really wanna compromise - they just want to make it seem like they are compromising.

Do you think they realize that the owners aren't stupid?

I don't really give a shit about either side anymore. I just hope every fan who's ever watched a game realizes there's a deal on the table here that's been negotiated for months. This isn't a case of the owners saying "Fuck you, this is the same deal we offered back in June." This is the endpoint of negotiations, with a lot of concessions made on both sides from the starting points. The players have the opportunity to vote on it today and get the season started in early December. Every NBA fan in the world should be pushing for a vote from the union right now, and an approval to accept the deal by the end of the day, and if there's no vote, every NBA fan should direct their scorn right at the players.

I can see your point, but from the beginning I thought this was a 'break the union' kind of thing and didn't expect to see any games played until October 2012. Chess pieces have moved, but to me the board is still basically the same, just pieces in different places. I'm not really surprised by anything except the 'slavery' rhetoric people keep popping up for millionaires

If players want to win they have to take less money to pay with the tax teams. This doesn't restrict player movement, this just means they have to take less money Mr Fisher, Mr Hunter. So what is it, players want to be able to play for winners or you just want to make sure they're over paid no matter WHAT team they play for.

The teams that go over the tax are going to continue to go over the tax, they can afford it, and they'll find ways to circumvent the rules, they always do :)

Here's one positive out of the current deal: If the extend-and-trade is off the table, and the sign-and-trade can't be done by tax-paying teams, that means there's pretty much no way Dwight Howard can go to the Lakers.

Well, they could still trade for Howard and just wait until he hits free agency and sign him right? Bird Rights are still in the new deal aren't they?

The sides don't make their offers public do they? I mean aside from the spin they put out the deal points aren't available for perusal? (Yes I do plan on reading the new CBA when it's available :) )

Yeah, I haven't read anything about portability of bird rights. I wish that was a sticking point for the owners. The "melo rule" is kind of toothless w/out it. Melo could still force a trade to the Knicks, he'd just have to wait until the next summer to re-sign w/ them for the max using his Bird Rights.

Reports are that the owners and players will sit down again today - in about 30 minutes (1 pm eastern), 4 hours before the deadline. I suppose it's possible something gets done but open minds and a spirit of REAL compromise must be on both sides before they walk in the room. Stern keeps referring to the labor mediation board like they're really in charge of this thing. I have no idea why.

Oh yeah, idiot lawyer apologized

The lockout is ending today fellas. It will be time to celebrate tonight and get back to regular posting.

What exactly gives you this confidence?

Lets not overreact. They only scheduled a meeting. They might get out of it in 30minutes and say the union is decertifying and the season is canceled. It is the first "true" now or never day though.

or maybe it's as simple as the owners showing up because the players said they wanted to talk and they don't want to be seen as showing 'bad faith' - I see no reason to believe it's anything more than that. Stern was pretty clear on Saturday night, and monday night, about this being it. Maybe the players will sway them, but Stern already has a cadre, not half, but reportedly 8-10, owners unhappy with the plan as it currently exists. If he gives things away that number goes up.

I read the number of owners unhappy w/ the deal on the table is 15, but he can get 16 to vote for it now.

I was just guessing on numbers, what I heard was 'some' owners unhappy with this plan hoping the players wouldn't confirm but that Stern had enough 'sway' (my word) to get it through at least 15 owners.

But that's the current deal, any movement on it and who knows, both sides are really a house of cards kind of deal but at least the owners are ready to agree to a deal

And that's the point the players don't get - not all the owners are happy - not all the players will be happy - tha'ts how it's supposed to go - both sides lose

From what i've read (can't remember where) 16 owners would accept the current deal and 13 are hoping it gets fully rejected.

Question: Does Stern have a vote too, as the league represents the Hornets? How many votes are actually needed 15 or 16 to get it approved as a result?

Hmmn. I guess they'd need 15 other votes.

I would think you'd need 16 votes to get it approved, 15 only guarantees a tie - a tie wins?

Well, if Stern gets 15 others, he's got the New Orleans vote.

Ok, gotcha.

More likely they meet for 16 hours then come out saying they accomplished nothing... what exactly do they talk about during these marathon sessions that go nowhere?

Kate Fagan saying Josh Harris is part of "Hardline ownership willing to risk season for best deal".

Zach Lowe says "If Comcast selling 76ers costs everybody a season, everybody should call and comlain."

I believe comcast would be one of the hardline teams as well - so not sure it makes a difference if they sold or not.

HOWEVER, if new ownership group is one of the hardliners, I believe that should make a serious hit to any of the 'optimists' who thought the new owners meant bigger and better things.

To me - teams committed to winning first won't care much about the details so much as long as they can build a winning team.

Well, I'm not sure that statement really holds water. You don't have to say "let us spend as much money as possible" to be in favor of building a winner. If there's no cap on how much you can spend into the luxury tax, you're still at a disadvantage as the owner of the Sixers. The Lakers make a lot more money.

I'd think any smart owner would be pushing for the most restrictive system possible. then you're going to be able to minimize mistakes, while dumb owners won't have a means to recover from the mistakes they make. I think that's probably a preferable system for an owner who is confident he's got smart people to build his team, so he doesn't have to see all his hard work go for naught when the lakers spend $70M into luxury tax to get Dwight Howard.

I love when you write these things brian, which make total sense, and yet you're a yankees fan :)

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Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Nov 9 at 15:32
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Comcast most certainly would.

I know if I was wealthy enough to own a NBA team and truly wanted to "win", I'd want to get it on a court and see what I have, not haggle over bs.

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tk76 reply to Ryan F on Nov 9 at 16:11
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I am not convinced that Comcast would have been on the hardliners' side. Comcast had much more to lose if there is no season. Comcast needs there to be games to make money off of their arena and have promgramming for CSN Philly. While the new owners probably make money if there is no season (they get TV money and have minimal operating costs.)

But I guess we will never know. Either way, it is disapointing that the new ownership is willing to flush the seasn dowbn the toilet, but I stioll feel like both sides get the blame for no deal being made.

Any update on the lockout?

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raro reply to Stan on Nov 9 at 16:17
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CBS Sports is doing a good job with live updates:

http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33204622

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/chris_mannix/11/09/nba.labor/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0

SI writer Chris Mannix, thinks that the owners are to blame if the season is over...

Has anyone heard ANYTHING that indicates what the 'conditions' are the players need to accept the 50:50

I'm assuming it's the full MLE for all teams, sign and trades, and bird right maintenance, hell I wouldn't be surprised if they just wanted everything the same but a shift to 50 instead of 53

Owners should respond:

Yes, if the players agree to give them money back if the players share of BRI creeps above 52%.

Problem (as the owners see it) is that the old rules (not just the BRI) prevented a competetive balance...not sure I agree or disagree, but there should be a bigger penalty than just 'cash' for going over the cap/tax level...or there is no disincentive for the teams making gobs over the teams not making gobs. It's common sense to me.

^ San Antonio Spurs forward and the Executive VP of the NBAPA, Matt Bonner, spoke with Canada's TSN 1050 on the latest with the NBA lockout.

Like I asked before- what do they spend all of this time discussing when they get nowhere? Are they paid by the hour?

But I guess hope is still alive (but barely.)

Well there's proposals, nuance, counter proposal 'excuse us while we confere' - i'm sure they're not all sitting at the table the whole time - there's a plethora of issues and then there's the 'b' issues that haven't even been addressed yet

Yeah, they talk 16 hrs about nuances like the thread count requirement for player hotel rooms or the free ticket allotment for remoras... and then they finally mention BRI and the discussion dies.

If you were watching ESPN last night, Bucher explained what is likely going on in the rooom

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johnrosz on Nov 9 at 20:38
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Adrian Wojnarowski
The NBA and NBPA have made significant progress Wednesday night toward reaching a deal, two sources briefed on talks told Y! Sports.

Adrian Wojnarowski
No deal was considered imminent, but talks were expected to extend late into the evening. The two sides have been meeting for 7.5 hours.

How much progress can they make at this point without being close to a deal?

I guess this is why I am not a lawyer.

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Nov 9 at 20:47
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I'm not gonna get my hopes up just yet, I was duped last time they were close to a deal

Until I hear BRI and progress in the same statement I am not hopeful.

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Nov 9 at 20:59
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well, Dan Gilbert and Robert Sarver are apparently backing the current 50 50 proposal...reason for optimism?

I read Gilbert, but hadn't heard anything about Sarver.

All I know is that I'm glad those guys don't own the Sixers. They do not exactly represent the owners well.

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Nov 9 at 21:40
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SIxers are supposedly one of the hardline teams currently against the 50 50 deal. A little bit disappointing as they can't claim the "small market" defense

Jrue getting little if any love from the talking ESPN Heads:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-111107/ranking-five-best-nba-juniors

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Cin reply to tk76 on Nov 9 at 23:24
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The same way that panel doesn't place any value on defense, I don't put any value in ranking players of different positions. I wouldn't take any point ahead of Stephen Curry and Jrue Holiday. They have the most potential as two-way players.

For 2's, I have a hard time believing James Harden is going to emerge as a special talent when he's neither a great ball-handler or shooter and is stuck between Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant.

Tyreke Evans and DeMar Rozan have been on some pretty terrible teams so they're hard to gauge. Marcus Thornton is a defensive zero and it's laughable that he was even ranked.

What's the second way for Curry?

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Cin reply to Brian on Nov 9 at 23:48
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It's unfair to say that he is going to be a bad defender for his career. He played defense poorly last season but for Golden State that's like saying water is wet. If he develops into an average defender then I think he could become a focal point for a good team. He has the potential to do so where as someone like Ty Lawson is always going to be limited by their size.

Is an average defender a two way threat?

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Cin reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 0:08
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If he's an average man to man defender that converts turnovers into points then you can call him what you want. I'm saying he can turn into a very balanced player.

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Court_visioN reply to Cin on Nov 10 at 4:05
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Something I've wondered: Do poor defensive players know they're bad on defense? Defense is 80% effort and hustle, no? Logical conclusion is the player either doesn't care or the coaching staff doesn't emphasize/put players in right positions to succeed.

Ah the 'they don't play defense' defense...still don't buy that, at all...

Kevin Arnovitz goes on twitter and gives a couple hard line owners a few jabs...

Kevin Arnovitz
kevinarnovitz Kevin Arnovitz
Know who paid more in rent than the Milwaukee Bucks last year? You did.
11 minutes ago
Kevin Arnovitz
kevinarnovitz Kevin Arnovitz
Holt bought Spurs for $76M in 1996 & is carrying about $40M in debt. He could pawn his team to the lowest bidder and still clear $150-200M
17 minutes ago

Henry Abbott: Lots of people asking if there'll be a deal tonight. Don't know and in a way don't really care. What has happened is that they are so close -- came into today with little to fight about, now presumably have less -- that I'm totally confident there will be a season of some kind soon enough.

Stern: We've agreed to stop the clock while we contnue to negotiate. Back at noon tomorrow. Neither optimistic nor pessimistic.

...more of the same. Wed/Thurs marathon promise and the Friday collapse and acrimony. These guys must be paid by the hour.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Nov 10 at 1:26
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I don't comment that much on the lockout mainly because I don't feel qualified to talk about it, but all of this negotiating seems ridiculous. What are they doing at all of these marathon sessions? Today seemed like such a waste.

They still seem so, so far apart.

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Rich reply to Rich on Nov 10 at 1:28
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Not that negotiating is a bad thing, but I have no idea how many more ridiculously long sessions I can take.

Agree 100%.

The only reason I have paid attention is that I can't wait to actually discuss/watch and hopefully enjoy an actual season.

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johnrosz on Nov 10 at 2:04
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Adrian Wojnarowski
Progress was made on three system issues, source tells Y! Sports

Adrian Wojnarowski
"There was absolutely movement today, enough to come back at it tomorrow," source in talks says.

Adrian Wojnarowski
So many of the system issues are linked, so it's a high-wire act of give-and-take to get them ironed out.

Assuming they reach a deal at 50/50 BRI, what will the salary cap be for next season? How much should we expect it to drop? And most importantly what is more beneficiary to the Sixers short term, compared to where other teams would be after using the "amnesty" and the free agents available.

I'm running to a meeting right now, but I can probably give you a rough number based on last season's math a little later.

Just using the most basic math, if they were playing under the old CBA this season, the cap would've been $60.69M. If the formula stays the same, but the split is dropped to 50/50, the cap would probably drop to around $52M.

I can't find out how much in expenses was subtracted from the BRI before the split is calculated, though, so this number is probably off, but not drastically so.

Didn't they 540 million earlier in the week?

I thought they said something around that, but the formula tells me it was more like $200M, so I just left it out and went w/ pure percentages. The salary cap for the past two years has represented between 47% and 49% of the raw BRI number, at 57% guaranteed.

Ok, maybe Woj and Abbot watched different press conferences than I watched last night.

First off - Mo Evans - get a jacket - you look ridiculous standing up there (and kind of scary) in that outfit.

There was no comment regarding any sort of movement, there was no indication from either side that the 'opponent' had moved any way in the 10ish hours of talk.

Hell, now instead of their being '5 issues' and the BRI there are a lot more issues that they have to talk about "B" issues as they put it (and if the draft is one of them as Broussard said, aside from the age limit, what do they need to talk about with the draft)

I think this is an act of going through the motions, of 'good faith' so when the NLRB hearing is heard neither side can be accused of bad faith. I have less confidence after yesterday than I had on Saturday when changes were actually put forth by ownership. I feel like the players really don't get the reality of what's going on. This isn't the NFL, it's not just a matter of how much profits to split, the NFL makes more on MNF rights than the NBA probably makes in an entire season (and keep in mind, the NFL has one more package that they'll inevitably sell for 17 weeks, I'd say in 2-3 years that Thursday Night Football is an all season kind of thing owned by a network not owned by the NFL, maybe TNT)

There was a question regarding progress to the player side last night, and while the answer was 'non descript' - the facial expressions from both Fisher and Hunter (Mo's facial expression just stayed the same, scary, the whole darn time) indicated almost derision at the idea of progress being made.

I don't know what was going on yesterday but neither PC gave any indication they were any closer.

However, Bucher indicated in his post PC report that the decertification movement does have the necessary 30% and if this 'negotiating session' doesn't pan out, the next move by the players will be to have that 30% petition submitted to the NLRB.

Taking odds on getting a deal made today - where are people at, I say it's only about 25% likely.

I'm not optimistic, probably less than 25%.

Odds there is a season if no agreement is made today?

No agreement made in this session (could stretch into tomorrow), I'd say 40-50%. I think if this falls apart, there's maybe a coinflip chance the union comes crawling back in time to have a season similar to the 1998 season.

"comes crawling back" doesn't relaly sound like the union right now, if the season hinges on the union bending, I'd put it at under 30%

I think the union is at a breaking point right now. The entire season isn't really in jeopardy, so they still have some cohesion. If these talks break down, you're going to have a lot of people facing going an entire year w/out a pay check. We started to see the cracks, I think they break wide open over the next month if there's no deal today.

According to something I read yesterday, forget where, players haven't really missed a check yet - first missed check is next Wednesday...so I guess we'll see.

I thinkt he decert vote is very bad

I was going to say the same thing.

The players have already lost money since games have been cancelled- but they have not missed a paycheck.

This is a big difference. It is one thing to be told that next year you won't get a paycheck. It is a much bigger deal to actually not have the cash right now. Sort of the difference between when people put stuff on credit cards versus actually taking cash out of their wallets- it should be the same, but seeing the actual cash go has a much bigger impact.

Right now players have not made any less money than they do normally. And once they do- the season will be already lost. This is why I think the escrow cash payment to the players was so harmful to the process. It pushes back the date the players actually miss a paycheck.

When do you suppose regular season games will begin if an agreement is reached today or tomorrow?

Most people have speculated that it would take about a month to run free agency, an abbreviated training camp and get the new schedule set up and game started

Probably about a month from agreement to first game.

UPdate from the CBS Blog (who puts it squarely on the owners it seems)

Well, that didn't take long. Reports are already starting to trickle in about things not going well at the meeting which started at noon EST. Alan Hahn of Newsday reports that inside of an hour in, he's not hearing positive feedback. Apparently the small-market owners have shown back up to bully and prod again, including reportedly Peter Holt, owner of the Spurs. SI.com reports that things sound "stalled." It's like we all keep waiting for the owners to blink in this game of chicken they're playing with themselves, and they just push the pedal harder.

eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33216824

Thanks, both. Thought about a month-and-a-half but a push sounds right, given the money drip & PR dent.

Read they could get a 76-game season in if this is resolved now. Would probably be a tough schedule, I think the Sixers have lost 15 games, something like that. Don't feel like looking it up right now, looking at the schedule depresses me.

Yeah - saw that too - but I still think if they get 50 this year it's a small miracle

Everyone's making fun of him on Twitter, apparently it's bogus.

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raro reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 17:11
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I got really excited there for a minute...

ESPN 710 reported that he said it on ESPN 700 (in utah) and they're still talking about it like it's got legs because Cheketts history in the NBA (He runs an MLS team now)

This is the second story I've read about someone stealing some custom item from Shawn Bradley. I think this has to be some kinky thing some guy has with giant mormons.

As a distraction can you comment on how this Post Howard imaginary Sixer team would perform from 2012-2017? I know it won't happen, but humor me...

Scenario:

1. At deadline Iguodala traded for young shooter + expiring: Say Paul George + Posey

2. Young re-signed affordably for 5 years.

3. Then this summer Howard opts out... the Sixers use amnesty to dump Brand and Howard signs "Philly-max V.2"

Sixers Fall 2012 on:

Jrue
ET
George
Thad
Dwight

bench: Lou/Meeks/Voose/#1(defensive PF)/?Speights


Is that a legit contender as the team matures?

-again, I know this won't happen, so you don't have to say why it won't :)

Does Thad get taller, learn to play defense, rebound and have more than one move offensively?

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 19:10
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Nope, but next to Howard I think it works. On the other side, if Thad drives past his man then it is an automatic hoop for him or Dwight. And I don't think there are many PF's who can stay in front of Young.

Get dwight in foul trouble (easy because Thad can't defend the buys)

It's not a contending team without a LOT of ifs falling the sixers way

And who is the coach when collis leaves in 2013?

Generally I don't believe that Thad is a 35+ per minute player...

d'oh - 35+ MPG player

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 20:31
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Agree, that team would be young but thin in the frontcourt. Although their PG/SG/SF rotation would be solid.

I just wonder if they would end up any better than Orlando has been the past few years.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 20:58
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Rashard Lewis didn't do many of those things. They still made a final and were also very legit contenders the next year. Dwight covers up a ton of deficiencies on a team.

Then again, it won't happen so it's pointless.

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tk76 reply to Rich on Nov 10 at 21:07
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Pointless, I guess. But it's more real than actual NBA games right now. So I guess I'm trying to invent some non Lock-out related discussion that is more pleasant to imagine than what is actually happening with the negotiating parties.

It's no more or less pointless than during the regular season...even if the season was happening, the sixers weren't a likely destination for Dwight Howard - ever - it's the kind of realgm high school speculation I am glad to be banned from :)

I agree that the Sixers have virtually no chance of acquiring Howard. I said as much in my initial post. I though using Howard in the hypothetical would make it a more interesting and tangible question, but clearly throwing his name out ended up being more of a distraction.

I simply wondered how that team would do- mostly because it involves projecting their young talent alongside a legit athletic center. They won't get Howard, but I assume they will get someone in the frontcourt who is less earthbound than Brand, Hawes or Voose.

So ignore Howard for a sec, and let me rephrase the question:

Project the Sixers core young players in 1-2 years if they can acquire a legit athletic big who can defend and finish in traffic. How good would that big need for them to be a contender?

Can't do it, sorry, Turners rookie year was just terrible...i mean projecting what will happen with him - I couldn't even begin try and figure where he's going to end up (and how the sixers get paul george is beyond me)

I think I've said it somewhere else that I'd keep Jrue and Evan and blow it up if at all possible

Yeah, Turner is really hard to guage. I think he will only be really succesful if he has compatable teammates.

I'm hopeful that Jrue plus a long shooter (that's why I mentioned Paul George) would be the right fit, since both can shoot and George is not a ball dominant type (more of a shooter.) It also would allow Turner to give you minutes at all 3 positions without asking ET to be a shooter or constantly guard SF's. And ET would likely draw a smaller defender most of the time- which would really help his offensive game.

Along the same lines, Thad's only hope as a 35 min player would be if the team found a physically dominant center. Also, it would be nice to see Thad be able to give you some minutes against longer SF's like Lebron, Durant, Gay and Granger- but that would be a surprising step at this point.

Young has the physical tools, but he just doesn't seem wired for perimeter defense- and I'm not sure that is something a player picks up with experience.

Larry Coon on ESPN Radio claiming some agents are making noises about steering clients away from the 'hard line teams'

BULL - they'll steer their players to the teams that offer the biggest contracts - period

Well it's indirectly truthful in the sense that the hard-line teams are mostly in boring markets that none of the good players want to go to anyways.

If the hard line team is the only one offering a client a full MLE for 4 years - the agent will not say 'don't take it - go play for a one year minimum in new york' cause - well - that's just dumb for the agent to do

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33225313

It's gnot getting better folks - if berger is right

Negotiators for the league and players’ association made modest progress on the use of the mid-level exception for luxury tax-paying teams Thursday, but other guidelines governing exceptions and the tax level emerged as a new sticking point, three people briefed on the labor talks told CBSSports.com.

One of the people said league negotiators signaled a willingness to raise the so-called “mini mid-level” to three years starting at $3 million for teams above the luxury-tax level, to be available every other year. The previous offer was a two-year deal starting at $2.5 million, available every other year to tax teams. There was no indication union negotiators were ready to agree to this slight improvement in the owners’ proposal, as it would reduce the mid-level exception for tax teams from last year’s five-year, $37 million total to three years and $9 million for teams above the tax line.

Also Thursday, a new hurdle emerged in the discussion over when teams would face the new restrictions owners are proposing for teams above the luxury tax threshold. Two of the people briefed on the talks said owners were pushing for teams under the tax at the time of the transaction to be restricted from using the full mid-level — four-year deals starting at $5 million — if the signing put the team over the tax. In that case, the team would be restricted to use of the mini mid-level. Union negotiators want the new restrictions to be based on where a team’s payroll sits in relation to the tax prior to the use of the exception — not where it stands afterward.

After a 12-hour session Wednesday produced minimal progress, the two sides pushed past the eight-hour mark Thursday with the threat looming that league negotiators would pull their existing offer off the table and replace it with a worse one. The new offer, originally scheduled to be furnished to the players at 5 p.m. Wednesday but delayed due to the ongoing talks, would feature a 53-47 economic split in favor of the owners and also would include a hard team salary cap and rollbacks of existing contracts. The two sides currently are negotiating off a league proposal that would give the players a 50 percent share of revenue and maintain a soft-cap system — albeit with a vastly more onerous luxury tax system, more restrictions on exceptions, shorter contracts and smaller annual raises.

["The players aren't going to be hoodwinked on this one," one such agent told CBSSports.com.]

Agents are more than willing to see the players lose out on paychecks, as long as the agents don't lose out.

The new smaller exceptions would really cut into an agent's cut... are the players so blind to not see were their agents loyalties truly lie? Agents care about getting their money. And are brazenly showing they don't care about the p[layers sacrificing paychecks to protect the agent's piece of the pie.

Not blind. Entitled since childhood and agents don't do anything to stop it.

Someone made the point that 57 was the old cba. His point was that there is no starting point. The cba expired so years starting over

The whole if the mid level puts you over the tax, you can only use the low one is an interesting wrinkle though. Kind of screws most teams into using the ''tax' exception.

5 million became 9 million. 80 percent increase. Shame they won't see it that way

Also from article

Even if and when a deal is reached, agents who have long opposed the concessions delivered to the league by union negotiators will be advising their clients to review the proposal closely and vote against it if it isn't substantially different than what the players learned about Tuesday.

Shut. Up. Agents!

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johnrosz on Nov 10 at 22:09
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they're so close to a deal, rhetoric aside. If you believe Kate Fagan they'll have it wrapped up tonight or tomorrow

Kate Fagan
Source briefed on talks says this about having reached a deal: "Not yet, we have to cross T's and dot I's. Right there though."#NBA lockout

I believe national nba writs on the beat for years with multiple sources than one minor Philadelphia beat writer. Other guys have more credibilityf than her

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if her confidence was from the Chekkets comments which have been thoroughly discredited by almost everyone.

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 22:16
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Woj and Aldridge have also reported progress from last night and today. Amick as well

And you chooser to go with Kate fagan as your lead?

I didn't believe any progress was made yesterday after the press conferences from both the nba and the players. Todays news all seems negative. Burgers been on top of this for a while

A deal isn't out of the realm of possibility but nothing today has made me more confident let alone a twit from Kate fagan for gods sake

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Owners revised offer will be working off current negotiations with players -- not the threatened 'reset' offer awaiting if talks broke down.
2 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
After finishing call with owners' labor relations committee, David Stern will deliver union a revised offer tonight, league sources tell Y!
7 minutes ago


Maybe this is the breakthrough?

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Nov 10 at 22:19
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please. I can't take this groundhog day nonsense much longer

This is it
Make no mistake where you are
This is it
Your back's to the corner
This is it
Don't be a fool anymore
This is it
The waiting is over
No room to run
No way to hide
No time for wondering why
It's here
The moment is now
About to decide

Seriously? Michael McDonald. Change your radio presets please :)

BTW, that was an obscure Kenny Loggins reference to an even more obscure ABC 6 local TV show from the 80's.

And here I thought it was Michael McDonald
My boss knows logging. He sings at the Christmas party
God I remember that tv show. Now I is old too

I just looked it up- Written by Loggins, performed by Loggins and MacDonald, so you remembered it right.


"This is It" was on Channel 6 in the 70's/80's. Made by the same producer who made "Captain Noah."


God I'm old
40 in four months

Jump to 30 second mark- it is classic. even a Wonder Years reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ0f5f-z4S0

And Mayor Wilson Goode at the end of the clip... Osage Ave memories streaming back. Yeah, we are old.

When i was a kid I used to have 1210 on my alarm. So I woke up the MOVE siege.

I remember Gary papa

I did not realize he just passes 2 years ago. I liked most of the local anchors back in Philly growing up. Nowadays I never watch local news.

I don't watch national news either
Jim obrien did his lasts successful parachute jump at my summer camp

This clip is even better. We had some great teams to root for back then... not to mention the world's largest menorah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaP1sfCBwiw

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johnrosz on Nov 10 at 22:18
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Sounds like there's a revised offer coming tonight...hope the union is willing to take it to players so we can end this circus

They've been meeting all damn day. And yet they can't give the revised offer until after the meeting? Jesus that's stupid to me

If its points they discussed and agreed upon it would not just be an offer. Well see what happens.

I think we are crossing the finish line!!! Vucevic & Hawes here we come!!!!

Yeah. No
Watch the players pc on now

Yeah, this is clearly getting settled though. Just at a brutally slow pace.

Well duh
At some point the nba will play again
I doubt before January 15 2012
Here comes the decertification vote folks.
The players seems to be saying we've moved all were going to move

More like here comes the final power struggle between the union and the agents. If the agents win we get no season- but they get access to even more agent cuts when players have their old contracts voided.


And if Hunter/Fisher win then you will have a deal by Wednesday. But I think the agents are much better at what they do than the Union leaders.

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johnrosz on Nov 10 at 22:55
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Meetings over, press conference soon, I'm assuming they'll be carrying it on nba tv

Yeah, things can't really tank until Friday- hasn't that been the pattern for the past month?

No talks until Monday according to hunter

God someone define concessions for the players

You can't concede any if there is no deal. There's nothing to concede. The old cba is dead period. Tis is a new one

Yeah they don't understand negotiations. The previous CBA was 100% favorable to the players, 0% favorable to the owners. Yet the players only think an owner "concession" is giving the players something better than the previous CBA had. Not happening you fools!

Ughhhh, no sense of urgency at all, Hunter/Fisher not going to talk to the player reps until Monday or Tuesday! Lametown. When you're unemployed, you shouldn't be taking weekends off!

Marbury calls out Jordan

Good that's guy playing in china pipes up

http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33209166

Instead of Be Like Mike, we should probably take our life lessons from Starbury.

Players ancillary issues six pages long
This gets farther away every time these folk talk it seems

Do you think like I do that the 5 players standing behind Hunter/Fisher just looks unbelievably abrasive? This is a press conference, not a death match in the ring against the owners.

Mo Evans looked the same last night. I think they're told to look stoic and angry
Still have n faith this is almost done

Suddenly there are six pages of issues to deal with. Why the hell haven't they been mentioned until now. Just freak minor crap that should have been settled already so that when you have agreement in the major points. The deal is done

Both sides are buffoons right now. More Stern double talk saying nothing to start in a few seconds

How people can watch these press conferences and be encouraged is beyond me. the words don't match how they look and stand and comport. It's very odd

I'm encouraged. Hunter/Fisher appeared quite positive in comparison to past PC's. That's quite an improvement in my opinion.

Six pages sounds like nothing. These labor deals are hundreds of pages long. It's things like minimum age. Players will fold on minimum age in a second.

Six points takes up a page and they can't agree on those yet you think six pages will be easy. At this pint I believe they'll argue every point to the death purely on principle

Clearly not a lawyer :)

It sounds like they reached a deal- but neitehr side knows if they can get it past a vote. So they are going to try and sell it to their sides over the weekend and then come back for the final tweak next week (unless the Agents/Celtics and low rent owners rule the day.)

At least that is my take.

Fisher and hunter don't even sound like they're sure if they're going to ask for a vote. I predict a decertification vite

They certainly won't take it to a vote unless they are confident it passes.

For all that the union is weak- at least it represents the players interests.

To use their own words, the agents hoodwink the players they represent.

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Nov 10 at 23:12
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Agreed. I think it's become clear to Hunter and Fisher that Stern is fighting his hardliners, he's doing what he can to give the players what they need. The insanity from the hardliners is very real, and it would be a complete disaster to test them

Agreed with you and tk. Stern can only hold off the hardliners for so long. His "ultimatum" was really more of a "here's what I can get you, I can only hold it for so long so let's get down to business right now."

I think Hunter/Fisher take this offer to the players reps, who will privately tell Hunter/Fisher "this deal is fine" but will publicly say "we're making progress but still need more system tweaks."

The settlement is well on its way. Basketball will return.

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johnrosz reply to stoned81 on Nov 10 at 23:16
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the fact that they're going to take the deal to membership signals that they realize this is as good as it's going to get

Not membership
Player reps

Not the same thing

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 23:34
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the player reps take the pulse of their team and present that in the rep meetings though

Well it would be awesome to take the pulse of a team before they know ther damn deal wouldn't
It?

The meeting on Monday is the board of the players union which isnt the same as the full union. Reps can't take a pulse without knowing the deal points now can they?

If the board doesn't approve it wont be presented to the full union from what Im understanding

The player reps decide on Monday if the full union sees it. Not vice versa

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 23:48
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My point is that the players are going to pressure their reps to at least bring it to a vote. Regardless of whether or not it's an ideal offer, there's going to be tremendous pressure to let the 450 members decide whether to accept it or not. It's clear that this is their last best offer, and I'm sure that's apparent to the union.

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