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Union Pushes the Button

Here's a fun read Kessler lost it when asked why the members weren't allowed to vote on the offer.

There's too many people involved in this who aren't first and foremost about the players - the agents hold too much sway, Kessler is all about Kessler it seems and even Hunter forgot his mandate it seems.

What i'd do - as a member of the union - is organize a vote anyway - like in parliament - call for a vote of no confidence on the 'executive council' - get copies of the proposal to every player and let em vote

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Johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 14 at 17:29
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They should absolutely organize a vote, but really...that doesn't seem to be one of the skills of this union body...

I know nothing about union functionality, nor do I believe in unions in most case, I think they're archaic, bso I don't even know if there is a mechanism for leadership removal - but I expect it requires a vote :)

The NBPA website lists 9 guys who are on that committee. I wonder who the other 21 are.

Stern hit it right on the nose when he called Kessler "routinely despicable."

Can someone please tell me how Jason Kapono and Spencer Hawes were chosen as our team's player representatives?

Are we going to have this discussion yet again?

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Johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 14 at 17:31
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He's having a hard time holding back laughter. I feel like this is going to be ugly for the union.

I picture stern off camera like mr burns "Excellent, they've walked exactly into our trap...soon we will have the jade monkey"

Not to mention - adma silver looks like some sort of evil henchman

How many people do you think are legitimately going to be impacted by this lockout. You've got the players, their managers, PR people, their hangers-on, their families, then you've got the ticket sellers, vendors, announcers, clubhouse guys, people who own businesses around arenas, parking lot attendants, then you've got the hidden losses. I mean, Gilbert Arenas would've had $19.3M in disposable income, that $19.3B is being taken out of the economy. Fuck, I mean, what percentage of the $2B the players earned was put immediately into the economy via conspicious consumption. How many clubs are going to go down the tubes and the "dancers," bartenders and workers who make their living through those industries?

Brian

I'm sure there are articles about it out there - i saw some stores on tv - see if you can find any information about how businesses around the quicken loans arena suffered the first year without lebron even - then multiply that - by like 30 - and take all the money away

Fisher's lip service to 'the little people' in all his press conferences pissed me off the most - he doesn't give a shit about the ticket taker or parking attendant now out of work - all he cares about is the player maximizing their money grab - don't pretend you 'feel' for them unless you're going to be sharing your strike fund with EVERYONE out of work right now

What truly amazes me is that guys like Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis, who have a fortune to lose in this lockout, are just standing by as it happens. Obviously their union "loyalty" goes far, but if I were them I'd be screaming from the mountaintops about putting the offer to a vote. There's nothing anti-union about voting, the union's bylaws say one player one vote.

Heh, according to Wikipedia, this guy Boies represented McCourt's wife in his divorce.

So. much. fail.

Looking at this from a Sixers perspective:

-Makes the Dalembert-Hawes trade less catastrophic, since that extra year of Nocioni becomes irrelevant

-Gives Turner more time to work with Magee and really get that shot down (hopefully).

-Since we won't be able to amnesty Nocioni next year, maybe we amnesty Brand's last year, giving us only $30MM on the books and allowing us to go hard for some of the big FAs?

-Makes us even more irrelevant in the Philly sports scene

--Any other angles?

Possibly ends the Collins era after only one season. Possibly ends the NBA as we know it. Jrue's rookie contract expires one year sooner. that's pretty much it.

Oh - gives new ownership an excuse to go cheap too :)

Nothing good is coming out of this for the sixers fans - owners will save money though

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 14 at 19:21
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ET

Unrelated note Brian, which means it's about actual hoops but someone mentioned the Voose the other day and I was interested to see what he was doing in Europe. Here are the Voose's stats so far-

27 minutes a game, 15 points and 10 boards, 8 defensive (nice), 56 FG %, 23 3P% (yuck), .7 assists- 2.3 TO (Cousins alert!).

I was pleasantly surprised to find out that they don't seem to play against the Montenegrin teams that much, instead playing in something called the Adriatic League against some pretty good comp (Maccabi Tel-Aviv and Partizan Belgrade are two fairly successful teams historically and have some former NBA players on the roster). Voose's team isn't very good though.

I gotta say though, the defensive rebounding numbers look pretty encouraging. I wonder what his scoring numbers would be if he cut out threes too. Anyone else know what the level of play in that league is? I also wonder if big men do better in Europe or the U.S. as I know Brandon Jennings struggled with the structure and physicality.

The Adriatic league (shortly ABA) is a regional league formed to provide stronger competition for the best clubs of each country. There are leagues like this in many sports throught Europe but i think it all started with basketball.

Anyway, it's a pretty strong league and you can make a case that it is the second strongest league in Europe after the Spanish league. I think 3 or 4 teams from the Adriatic league play in the euroleague as well. All in all it's a good experience for Vucevic and i am surprised too by how well he is doing so far. Apparently he is among the MVP candidates as well. That being said the european style fits Vucevic quite well. We'll see how much of that will translate to the NBA. Unless of course there is no more NBA and everybody heads to the Euroleague :)

ALbania, Albania you border on the adriatic

I'm not going to read anything into any sort of euro ball play as most of them are guys who can't get NBA contracts

Dude is going to be a beast.

I do my best to remain a sane human being throughout this process.. especially after seeing how fandom can make people insane (See: penn state fans). But today was absolutely miserable. So much hypocrisy everywhere you look, and no underlying logic to any of it. Just a shitty day.

So much hypocrisy everywhere you look, and no underlying logic to any of it.

Which is every where yo uturn, hypocrisy, and logic, and GREED. I don't get people being surprised that these two are fighting to the last dime - they've been talking about this for two years - NEITHER side wanted to really make a deal unless it's their deal and MAD is MAD

Won't even touch the PSU fan because those pro joepa fans disgust me

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johnrosz on Nov 14 at 19:25
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From ESPN interview with Kessler and Boies:

Your first "if" supposes a lawsuit might not be filed?

Boies: I'm just saying, we're going to go back, we're going to assess this. Jeffrey probably has got decades more experience in this than I have. And we're going to go back and we're going to talk about what the right approach is. Maybe it's filing a lawsuit. Maybe it's not filing a lawsuit. We've got to figure out what the lawsuit would say if there is going to be a lawsuit. There's a lot that has to be worked out.

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The players are ready to hitch their wagons to these two? They don't even sound like they have a solid plan of action

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tk76 reply to johnrosz on Nov 14 at 20:00
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*Owners- arguably losing money
*Players- about to lose a ton of money
*NBA related workers- About to lose their livelihood
*Fans- About to lose their game
*Gamblers- About tolose their fix
* Government- about to lose a bunch of tax revenue

Kessler- Happy days and paid by the hour. "We have to go back and review things (and get paid by the hour.")

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on Nov 14 at 20:08
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I never once heard the players acknowledge that the last two CBA's heavily favored the union. They had to realize that this would be a painful process of givebacks especially considering the state of the economy.

I'm so angry about this that I've decided that I want them to be raked over the coals. Even with all the givebacks, they still would have had the best CBA of any of the 4 sports IMO, but they not only rejected it, they spat on it.

*Gamblers- About tolose their fix

I'd bet there's a lot more money wagered on college ball than pro - real gamblers will find a way to gamble :)

Also what will I talk to my coworkers about? I have no wife or kids, the Eagles and Phillies are too depressing and I don't watch hockey or college sports. I guess I'll have to start watching Glee and Dexter.

Yes - those really are the only options in life

I watch sports, play sports, blog about sports, study, drink, work and sleep. That is pretty much my life.

Thern pick up some new sports, watch college basketball, pick up hockey

or, you know, get some perspective, it's a pretty big world

I'd go with Sons of Anarchy before Dexter, but I watch them both.

If you are obsessed with sports- might i suggest the league - that is some funny shiz

Also - there are these things called BOOKS - they exist i hear

books? who has the patience for them?

Also what about you? Who are you going to vent your frustration on when there are no Spencer Hawes supporters and Iguodala haters? :)

Contrary to the belief of the people who post here (and thus know very little about me truly) I have a pretty wide and varied life, my life is not consumed by the sixers, or sports in general, I can focus on php and jquery so by the time the esason starts i have my web site up and some pre season prediction contests, i have 500 GB of downloaded comic books to read, I'm constantly reading books, currently in the middle of reamde, second sandman slim book, and the sequel to killer pizza, plus catching up on farscape, or breaking bad.

My life has a lot of intereests, the adhd makes the dabbling sort of border on addiction at times that's all :)

nice. What kind of website are you planning?

Um - well there's not just one - numerous ones are being planned - but i wanna try and find a way to get old school and new school basketball types to interact productively :)

I hear you. My life in the winter is pretty much work, the NBA, and bars (in the summer I add MLB and the beach). Losing the NBA is a killer! I absolutely hate the NHL, and while I'll watch the NFL, that's only once a week basically (most night games this year have been awful). I can't stand college sports, especially college basketball, so I'm ish out of luck.

I do like to read. Guess I need to go buy some more books! And maybe I'll finally start going to the movies on a regular basis again. NBPA, I hate you.

"The players are ready to hitch their wagons to these two? They don't even sound like they have a solid plan of action"

Hahaha. That statement was hilarious and yet so sad.

Hey look - part of the reason this is going so poorly is the senates fault

Cool

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-111114/questions-answers-nba-players-announcing-disclaim-their-union

Would love to see a list of the players who are not going to get the money that they would have "stolen" this season. Arenas, Lewis, Hamilton come to mind first but I am sure there are another dozen out there. I wonder how they would vote???

yup. Kevin Garnett just lost $21 million. I don't understand why someone who has so much to lose would be such an ass.

But he's not 'stealing' money is he - he's one of the better players in the league

an he's been an ass much longer than he's been rich - i mean there's that bitch slapping incident

KG is a punk - pure and simple

He is not really "stealing money" but his pride is hurting a lot of NBA players like Jodie Meeks. It will probably take him 2-3 seasons to make up the money that he lost this season.

I honestly believe if they put it to a secret ballot, 80% of the players would've accepted the offer.

According to Henry Abbot, every player WAS sent a copy of the offer?

The last time the NBA and the players association met, the meeting ended early Friday morning with an offer from the league. The NBA then sent that offer in writing to every player, and quietly prayed that the union would let the players vote on it, expecting it would pass and the NBA season would begin.

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 14 at 23:47
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Among the rhetoric being exchanged on Monday was this from David Stern about the union's move to disclaim: "It's just a big charade and it's really irresponsible given the timing of it." Is the commissioner right or wrong?

He is wrong. Stern may wish the players' action was a charade, but it is a serious legal action against an obvious monopoly that is using its total control of the market to take money and benefits from players. Stern and the owners have been worried about this since they began their lockout. The timing shows only that the players patiently negotiated until they realized the owners were asking for too much.

--------------------------------

It's just kind of weird to hear someone claim that the league is taking rights and "benefits" away from the players, while I read this I just can't sympathize with a union that takes private flights and stays in luxury hotels.

I read that article earlier. Not really all that shocking coming from a labor lawyer.

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Charlie H reply to johnrosz on Nov 20 at 21:54
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It may seem "weird", but it's the law. The owners broke it by locking out the players. That's why they're so nervous; they don't want a lawsuit and the pressure is on them.

Why do you think the owners are nervous?

Owners don't seem nervous at all, and the case against them is weak. NBA is losing money, courts don't force in-the-red companies to continue operating and lose more money.

If lockouts are illegal then strikes are illegal

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johnrosz on Nov 14 at 23:52
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Broussard seems like a mouthpiece for the players.

I think the players were given a fairly crappy deal and they understandably shot it down. If they want to lose this season's wages (with the chance of recouping them in damages) to prevent structural changes that would have the effect of limiting player movement, that's their prerogative. The players owe us nothing; they don't have to lay down to give us a season.

And a small legal correction here; the appeals process is relatively quick and wouldn't take 2-3 years (there's nothing here worthy of Supreme Court review, assuming they don't seek injunctive relief, as Boies's comments to ESPN suggest). But what could easily take 2-3 years is the trial. Not the trial itself, but all the discovery and legal wrangling leading up to the trial.

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johnrosz reply to Tray on Nov 15 at 2:32
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Who's to say the courts will rule in their favor regarding system issues though? It doesn't sound like that's a likely outcome.

The players aren't going to be able to go long enough without paychecks to see the entire legal process through anyway. If they don't fold by January, they definitely fold by the time 2012-13 season rolls around, and are assuredly going to take a far shittier deal than what was offered today.

Ok so here's my take on all this. I expected the union to decertify (or disclaim interest or whatever) all along, simply because it's a good negotiating tactic. I had no idea though they will drag it all to the point it's too late. This is clearly just a way to squeeze a few more concessions, but i don't think it will be successful. At least not significantly.

As i understand it, right now the players lawyers can keep negotiating with the league's lawyers, right? In my opinion that still means the union will keep negotiating and will eventually settle without even dragging this thing to court.

I expect significant amount of heat being directed from disgruntled suddenly awoken players to their representatives and a huge public fight between fractions among the players. All of those overpaid players, older players getting their last paycheck and minimum deal players are looking at possibly only/last NBA deal ever. They are all certain to group up somehow and fight the stars. And they are a significant part of the total amount of players possibly even the majority.

There is also something that noone is talking about and that is the impossible job coaches will have when the NBA resumes working. They will have to somehow convince players to play for the owners while maintaining a compact team that will certainly have players mad at each other for losing money. This can easily become very ugly between the players.

Just imagine Speights punching HAwes in his face on the first day of training camp!!

Quote of the day so far:

“Y doesn’t Billy Hunter shake our hands draft night instead of David Stern?” – Washington Wizards forward Trevor Booker(notes) on Twitter

It sounds like the legal team is promising players that they will get 3X their salary paid by the owners in the form of damages. But if the players really think they will be paid for not playing then they are more out of touch than I thought (which is saying something.)

Jeffrey Kessler: "The fact that the two biggest legal adversaries in the NFL players' dispute over the NFL lockout both agree that the NBA lockout is now illegal and subject to triple damages speaks for itself."

Kessler is such fraud. Boies switching sides means nothing except that the NBPA asked him to represent them. Lawyers are trained to be argue both sides, and do it all the time, it has nothing to do, at all, with whether Boies thinks one side has a better position than the other.

In fact, I'm sure he doesn't. Boies knows the NFL lockout was legal, and that was a league that was extremely profitable and already had a hard cap and no guaranteed contracts. The opposite is true of the NBA, so I'm sure he knows the NBA lockout is legal too.

Kessler should be sued for breach of fiduciary duty in my opinion.

If they did even get damages worth 25% of their salary... then Kessler takes his 1/3rd cut and pockets $170M. Not bad motivation for him to steer the players into disaster.

Yup, I think he's counting the billable hours, dirtball gets paid whether they win or lose, unlike the players.

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Tray reply to stoned81 on Nov 15 at 23:53
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What the Eighth Circuit decided, ultimately, wasn't the legality of the NFL lockout. They just decided the Norris-LaGuardia Act prevented them from enjoining the lockout. No one's seeking injunctive relief here. I actually think the players have a great case.

They may have a great legal case.... but do you think that actually helps the players?

Meaning, would they end up netting a profit if they play this through the courts or will this be enough to force the owners to give them a better deal ASAP.

My sense is that with every week this drags on they will lose money that will never return and the game gets further harmed to where TV contracts and gate revenue will decrease.

Just the fact that the networks are being stuck paying for games that are never played suggests that they will not be as eager to pay top dollar for the NBA product next time around.

Mike Wilbon ain't such a bad writer

I agree.

But at this point I disclaim interest in the NBA- or at least its labor strife. So much for a boycott- the NBA is already doing more damage to itself than anyone.

I"m going to take the opportunity to devote myself to the past - to catching up on thoughts and research ideas i had :)

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johnrosz on Nov 15 at 16:25
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Those are good reasons why it should end sooner than later- but by that same reasoning there should have been a deal in place a month ago.

Here are my reasons why there won't be a season:

1. Kessler

2. KG/PP and other players who have already made 100M+ and can afford to be ruled by their egos.

3. Agents

4. Spurs/Cavs owners

5. big egos on both sides and peple out of touch with reality.

6. Escrow payment means players won't miss a check until December. By the time people start running out of money it will be too late to save the season.

7. TV deal pays owners even if there are no games.

8. Our swift legal system.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7238744 (part 1)

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7238752 (part 2)


2 part B.S. report with simmons, bucher and stein talking about how the lockout got to where it is

This is kind of the high point of Simmons's worthlessness as an analyst and commentator.

"The difference with the sixers is that they have a HORRIBLE arena deal" (Ric Bucher)

Sixers do get mentioned when talking about the new orleans hornets value.

The way the arena deal is structured hurts anyone who is buying them (the sixers) (again from Bucher)

That's just awesomesauce

Bucher really doesn't know shit.

I'm curious to hear what you know about the sixers arena deal (the new owners deal with comcast who owns the stadium) versus the average nba arena deal

I asked this specific question before the sale went through, their arena and cable deals are in line w/ everyone else, they have to be. The league gets approval on these things because they affect the BRI and revenue sharing.

Isn't that where the revenue sharing debate is coming in between large and small teams - the tv deal s- the massive fox spanish deal that the lakers signed for example.

have you seen any sort of documentation that backs up the assertion that it has to be 'in line' - or is it just a belief on your part?

Direct quote from a source who worked w/ the numbers.

The most irritating part of this is 'Steiny Mo', what's wrong with calling the dude by his NAME?

NBA officially cancelled all games between now and Dec 15

Today is the first day players will miss checks

I'm not sure when they receive their escrow checks, but that is for 8% of their salary. That covers about 2-3 weeks worth of games.

I wonder how much player's hugely inflated salaries will allow them to hold out longer. Of course many of them spend it faster than they earn it.

Isn't the escrow based on the previous season? I woulld have thought that they burned through that this summer - all that time flying back and forth to union meetings, oh wait...

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 15:23
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Stern says that the NBA needs at least 30 days from the signing of the new CBA for the season to start. So everyday that goes by another day of the season gets cancelled.

So the suits have been filed. The first battle is probably going to be where they're tried. No idea how long that will take.

Gonna ask you - what players are part of the class - where did they file?

found it myself

The lawsuit, filed in federal court in Northern California on Tuesday, was brought on behalf of named plaintiffs are Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard and Leon Powe, according to the suit. The suit seeks to represent NBA players and other prospective professionals.

There was a thought the players would shoot for california, owners will shoot for new york (where league offices are).

Yeah, they have a rookie in both cases, it's Derrick Williams in the one filed in Minny.

Article i read only mentioned Northern California, - I'm not really sure the minnesota court was 'friendly' towards the players - honest i thought the players suit never really had any real hearings because they found an agreement

If I remember correctly, a court granted the injunction early on, but then it was immediately turned over.

I vaguely remember that but since it was immediately over turned how can they give them hope :) Didn't the guy also take like a two week vacation?

Just to make matters more fun now Cutino Mobley is suddenly suiing the knicks claiming he was forced to retire.

(Is he still under contract?)

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 18:46
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"The lawsuit, filed Wednesday in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, says the Knicks sent Mobley to a specialist they knew would oppose him playing, so insurance could pay his contract and it wouldn't count against the luxury tax."

So I guess his contract was paid out. I think he's suing for the fact that he lost years of playing pro basketball

Um - he didn't HAVE to retire - he could have asked to be bought out - filed a grievance - whatever

Brian did anyone ever tell you that you look like Andy McKee?

I didn't know who Andy McKee was until I just looked him up. I think I'm going to grow the pony tail, see if I can get work as an impersonator.

Grew a pony tail my freshman year in college - don't advise it

Who the hell is andy mcke?

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 16 at 22:46
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A talented guitarist. youtube him if you're into acoustic

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stan reply to Brian on Nov 16 at 22:45
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He sorta looks like your from the side- http://www.cmn.tv/wp-content/uploads/amckee.jpg

Maybe he's my long lost brother.

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stan reply to Brian on Nov 17 at 9:28
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Maybe you can be his impersonator and target his groupies

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johnrosz on Nov 17 at 0:40
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Tonight was the first night where it really dawned on me how much this is going to suck. My options for sitting back and watching some sports were limited to some bad college football games.

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Rich reply to johnrosz on Nov 17 at 0:47
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It's really, really going to suck. Until baseball. Well that will suck too, 50 million for a d-bag closer. Ugh, I have no faith in anything anymore.

He's a better closer than Madson
Who gives a shit how he acts
Shane Victorino is a GIANT douche bag and most phillies fans love his douche baggery

The bigger problem is short stop, no left fielder, a torn ACL on the already over paid for too long Ryan Howard and an aging team.

Seroiusly - Paplebon IMPROVES the phillies roster - anyone against it is off their rocker

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Jeff reply to GoSixers on Nov 17 at 17:52
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Yet you still hear moron "analysts" claiming Papelbon won't be as effective in philly because of his higher flyball rate. Yet CBP was 22nd in the league in hr/g ( I believe).

Moron analysts (and members of the braves pitching rotation) still claim CBP is a 'homer' park - that's why they're morons :)

Is that number for this past season, or a larger sample size?

11th in 2011
16th in 2010
12th in 2009
15th in 2008

Park factors the past four season

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

not exactly the top of the pack in terms of 'park factors' - but the media sticks with the nonsense from the opening year(s)

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 17 at 19:10
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I'm against it at that price, which I indicated in the post. A reliever not named Rivera should not make that kind of money. It's just not a good way to run a baseball team, to give a guy that kind of money who pitches so few innings. Do you remember the Lidge contract and how a long-term deal for a reliever can bite a team in the ass?

If Jimmy Rollins or someone who is better than him is not playing shortstop for this team next year, than I hate that signing even more. I'd rather have Bastardo closing and Rollins than Papelbon and Freddy Galvis or Wison Valdez (Who Amaro called the team's MVP two years ago, and that really fucking scares me). If they sign Rollins, then fine.

There are a lot of people who are against that signing by the way: That's way too much money for a guy that is going to be pitching so few innings. Are Keith Law and Jonah Keri off their rockers?

Just because you have a lot of money to spend on a team, doesn't mean you should spend it stupidly.

The phillies haven't let a budget get in the way of signing who they wanted. As a fan worrying about how MUCH the closer gets paid until it actually AFFECTS the team is a little asinine. Did the phillies giving billy wagner money make it unlikely they'd sign someone else? Did it prevent them from obtaining roy halladay, or cliff lee? I'm pretty sure it didn't.

Papelbon is better than Madson - Madson was almost signed to 40+ million - so what the hell is your problem with Paplebon's deal (i don't know how to spell his damn name). If the paplebon deal prevents other signings - fine - but it hasn't yet has it? It's not like they were going to sign Pujols, they weren't going to sniff reyes (thank god), who have they missed out on signing specifically?

And oh yeah - they're about to get 'salary control' of draft picks written into the CBA as well

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 17 at 21:31
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Why is it asinine to worry about how much he gets paid before it affects the team? That's like being a Magic fan and being totally fine with the Rashard Lewis contract because they made the Finals the first year. It did affect the team eventually, in a really bad way. Yes, baseball is different than basketball but the Phillies are still not the Yankees. They don't print money. The Lidge contract was a hindrance for three years.

The point is two-fold: First, it's not about who will they not be able to sign this year (Rollins and an outfielder, with Rollins being the main priority), it's who they won't be able to sign down the road. There is already so much money committed for the next three to four years and now they are spending 10 million of it a closer, for 4 years. Second is that it's not about him being better than Madson (by a little bit too). It's that a closer not named Rivera should not make get a four year deal.

I have no idea what the Billy Wagner reference was about in reference to Halladay and Lee. Not only were they 5 years apart, but the Phillies didn't give Wagner money. They let him go to the Mets, who signed him for four years, forty million dollars, which sounds eerily familiar. Needless to say, it didn't work out for the Mets, who started spending less later. It goes more with my argument.

When did MLB get a salary cap?

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 17 at 22:37
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When the Phillies threw a bunch of money at Billy Wagner, I guess.

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Da Jruth reply to Rich on Nov 17 at 23:26
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warranted ;-)

Sorry. My bad. Lodge not Wagner
And the mets stopped spending money cause it got stolen.
Again you're whining about money the phillies spend but show me an example of it hurting the team building the roster
Hell Howard contract is hella worse than papelbons and did not even need to be signed at the time
the phillies have issues but freaking out over paps contract is silly compared to the bigger issues

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 18 at 10:49
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I'm not arguing that Howard's contract isn't bad, but that's already done. I've made my peace and accepted it's going to hurt the team at some point (Probably has already). There are rumors Cole Hamels isn't going to be here after this year. You are right that the MLB doesn't have a salary cap and that means that Hamels is going to command a lot of money with some team really trying to jump all in on him. This is why the Papelbon deal worries me.

And yet you still ignore the fact that no 'bad' contract the phillies has given out has made them unable to get what they want when they target it. Jesus - they've wone how many straight divisions, they broke the cities 1983 curse, and still some people can only moan and whine about it.

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 18 at 13:14
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That was 3 years ago. They have been losing to inferior teams for the past 2 seasons.

3 years ago they lost to a far superior team.

I'd try to explain the concept of how the playoffs are as much about luck and being hot at the right time than anything else.

The cardinals weren't the best team in baseball this year they just had a good month.

When the giants beat the undefeated pats - does that mean the giants were the better team that season or just that day?

One sudden death game isn't on par w/ a 7-game series. Not that best-of-seven is a perfect measure, but it's much better than a one game playoff.

It's going to be fun to see a 100-win team get 1 playoff game and be done under the new system.

God how stupid is that - sure we're going to add an extra wild card but then you only get ONE game in the playoffs

Talk about utter BS poor measurement of who is better - utterly stupid.

Point is - do you think the cardinals were the best team in baseball this year?

Fuck no. The past two years the best team didn't win. The NBA is the best playoff system for the best team, imo. All series are 7 games, there's plenty of rest, so you're taking away variables. Baseball is next, though the five-game series are BS, if you're looking for the absolute best team. The NFL I feel is like a coin flip.

the big question is whether sports are better off having the best system to identify the best team, or if the drama of uncertainty is better for the sport.

Well theres' too much money in playoffs and the fan debate of 'well they won the super bowl or world series so they must have been the best' - it's a shame.

Hell it's a shame that kershaw got the cy young cause of some mythical non existent 'triple crown' - or that closers got ROY in baseball - baseball is really arcane in some ways.

I love what the BCS is about to do though :)

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Nov 18 at 14:53
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Who is crying about what they've done on the field? You are really jumping to conclusions here. Just because someone hates the Papelbon deal has nothing to do with their appreciation of the team. Can we not agree with moves they make?

Your original point is that it makes the team better and your crazy not to think that. My point is that's not true yet. If Cole Hamels leaves because he's commanding anywhere less than 7-8 million dollars a year more than the Phillies are willing to give, the Papelbon contract actually makes the team significantly worse starting next year. The same is true if Rollins leaves this year and is replaced by a guy like Valdez.

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johnrosz on Nov 17 at 1:23
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Just read that those 7 super agents have decided against filing a separate decertification claim. Maybe that's a good sign, sounds as though the disclaimer was filed in hopes of a quicker resolution that would be preferably settled outside the court room.

In another indication of the relative position of the NBA in the 'big sports' world, the Houston Astros are being sold for 680 million dollars.

They're a piss poor franchise with piss poor attendance and their sale price is 680 million dollars. HALF A BILLION for a crap team - the dodgers will probably go for over a billion.

(The cash transaction on the astros is 610 million because they get a 70 million dollar discount for the asinine idea to move them to the AL West so we can have interleague play 'all year' - Dear Bud Selig - thank you for screwing up baseball)

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Jeff reply to GoSixers on Nov 17 at 17:49
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Interleague all year? Didn't hear this...I'll have to go read about that. It would be nice if the AL decided to follow NL rules.

That has less to do with the quality of the leagues and more to do with the financials of the leagues. Baseball teams generate more revenue. 81 home games with crowds from 30-40k vs 41 home games with crowds from 15-20k. Even crap teams like the Astros draw 2 million, whereas the Spurs can win 61 games and only draw 700k.

It's just not an apples to apples comparison, and it has nothing to do with the quality of the leagues.

Quality was a bad term - you're right - i meant to talk about financial 'strength' of each league - the nba wants 350 million for the new orelans hornets to KEEP them in new orleans - I don't see that happening.

Jeff - Interleague all year would be REQUIRED if the astros move to the AL because it would be 15 and 15 - some bassackward nonsense about how it's 'harder' to make the playoffs in the NL because there are 16 teams versus the 14 in the AL - both leagues have at least 1/3 of the teams out of it from day one anyway because of bad uninterested unspending ownership.

Moving to the AL ain't making it more likely that Houston (or the cubs) are going to hit the playoffs.

There are a lot of rumors about what is and isn't changing in baseball - their new CBA is being negotiated before it expires without any lockout...without any rancor - which with the history of MLB (total, not just recent) it's kind of extraordinary how much labor peace they've had for a while

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johnrosz on Nov 17 at 22:18
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"I really didn't need to get involved in all that," Wade said. "Obviously I wear a different hat than certain other guys that got involved in it. And I stay away from it. I have an obligation and I have a job to do and I'm going to do my job."

Several players vowed to shun Jordan's merchandise, including Paul George, Klay Thompson and, most notably, Washington Wizards guard Nick Young, who posted on his Twitter account, "I'm not wearing Jordans no more. Can't believe what I just seen and heard from M.J. Elvis Done Left The Building."

"That's on Nick Young," Wade said. "That's his moment. Obviously, that's his own choice and decision and, you know, that's something he's going to have to deal with. I can't let that affect me. I have my own things to run, my own stuff to think about what I'm doing with my own shoes.

-----------------

Kinda humorous, D Wade looking out for his own self interest when he could step up as a symbol of players fighting against the hardline owners. But of course, that would end up costing him his endorsement with Jordan Brand, and he doesn't want that to happen.

The superstar players are guilty of the same greed and self interest as the owners, they're just blind to it.

If D Wade is so serious about holding out for what's right, why not take a more active role in criticizing Jordan?


I haven't really been on any one side throughout this, I've maintained that both sides are morons. What is really pissing me off is the latest reports that some of the big-name players, Durant, Wade, etc., who have been staunch supporters of holding-united-for-a-fair-deal are now supposedly listening to foreign offers.

They're willingly and pridefully declining to play basketball professionally in the US, holding the fan-base and low level dependent employees of the game hostage because of FA flexibility, but are willing to travel abroad, play for much less $$, no flexibility, shared rooms, and public flights.

To me this is a slap in the face. Does this offend anyone else? I know most won't follow through and they just want to use this as neg tactics, but still.

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Tray reply to Ryan F on Nov 18 at 16:49
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"They're willingly and pridefully declining to play basketball professionally in the US, holding the fan-base and low level dependent employees of the game hostage because of FA flexibility, but are willing to travel abroad, play for much less $$, no flexibility, shared rooms, and public flights."

What do you mean, no flexibility? They're talking about signing 1-year deals with opt-out clauses if the NBA season starts. What's more flexible than that? Even if you were right, the difference is that they're willing to play in this lousy system for a year to ensure that the system in which they'll be playing for their careers will be more to their liking. So that makes total sense.

I didn't follow the NHL lockout because I don't care about the sport. Does anyone know how the deal the players got after the missed year stacked up against where the negotiations left off when the season was cancelled?

You seem pretty confident that by giving up this season the players will get a better deal for next year, I'm not sure that's warranted.

I'm pretty sure it sucked hard for the players and the owners were very happy :)

I don't think it makes any sense at all because most of the players cannot get jobs in Europe. It's just flat-out selfish.

I don't think the whole rant made any sense the whole 'slap in the face' thing in particular.

NBAplaybook.com is doing scouting reports on the 1st round picks - here's the link to Vucevic.

http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/11/07/draft-pick-scouting-report-16-nikola-vucevic/#more-16844

Thanks for the link. Love how everyone is praising Vucevic.

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Jack Straw on Nov 19 at 13:16
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Highlights of Vucevic vs. Maccabi Tel Aviv. Passing out of the post looks decent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWLpyoohs6o

Solid! Thanks for the link, Vucevic is going to be a great player, this is against real competition and the dude is bringing it!

that's incredible how it gets him to shoot like his style! Facially it doesn't look much like him but the side profile at 42 seconds is an uncanny resemblance.

As long as 'real competition' is guys who aren't really good enough to even make the rotation on the average NBA team.

It's amazing how this guy wasn't impressive enough in college to be a high pick on most boards but now everyone loves him in europe

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Nov 19 at 20:02
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Hey, at least he is doing well.

We won't know how he does in the NBA until he gets a chance. But I'm not going to bury him simply because most people wanted a sexier pick. The fact is, a white center who relies more on size/length than explosiveness is never going to be drafted very high. But that does not mean he is destined to be a stiff.

The Sixers still need to go out and get the type athletic big needed to complement Jrue and ET. But that player was not to be had at #16, so I'm going to wait to judge Voose's utility based on what he can do as opposed to who is isn't (if that makes any sense.)

Good points.

Could say the same thing about Jrue Holiday and Ty Lawson, who, at 17 and 18, are better than almost all the picks in front of them in the 2009 draft.

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Jack Straw on Nov 19 at 19:24
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http://basketball.realgm.com/international/league/18/Adriatic_League_Liga_ABA/team/67/KK_Buducnost_VOLI/schedule

For anyone who cares to follow you can check out Vucevic's box scores here. He's been solid in his last 8 games. This afternoon he went for 30, 9, 3 assists, and 2 blocks on 12-13 FG's. Its not exactly the NBA over there, but its still experience.

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tk76 reply to Jack Straw on Nov 19 at 20:56
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According to the ABA website, Voose is #2 in the league in MVP rank after 8 games. That is impressive IMO. But then again, his game was made for Euroleague.

Here are some stats for his competition to help put things in perspective in terms of level of competition:

Voose: 17.4/10/0.9A/0.9B 55%

So in the league he is 3rd in pts, 2nd in reb, 4th in blocks,

Pekovic: 15/7/0.9A/1B/
Farmar: 11.3/2.8/4.3/53% in 26min
Hendrix: 8.7/4.8 0.8 blks,

But unfortunately, that is it for players you have heard of. Except Morrison, who is scoring 17 pts/g... let that be a cautionary tale...

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Jack Straw reply to tk76 on Nov 19 at 22:57
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Just picturing Voose at the free throw line to seal the game with Buducnost Nation chanting "MVP, MVP, MVP"

It would be nice to be able to actually watch some full games to get a better handle on how he looks defensively.

Hmmm NBATV is showing the end of the 1977 Finals and not only is Doug Collins super young, man does Bill Walton look like an ugly '70s version of Blake Griffin, ugh...

...and during the latest complain about Bill Simmons fest, did I miss anyone actually reading his last on why the lockout may take out multiple seasons?

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7250994/business-vs-personal

Interesting but depressing.

woah apparently the team dug up this, the comprehensive list of Darryl Dawkins nicknames as of 1982: http://www.nba.com/sixers/stories/pages_81-82_6.html

I think the next Voose game will be on Tuesday at 4PM (EST) and might be broadcast on:

mms://beotelmedia.beotel.net/tvcg

That is the free feed from Montenegro TV2, which broadcast their 1st Eurocup game last week.

Actually it might be on Eurosport2. I'll post if it ends up being online.

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Jack Straw reply to tk76 on Nov 22 at 9:45
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Please do! Thanks in advance.

Dr. J selling his memorabilia for $3.5 hard cash?? Maybe he thinks we have reached the end of the NBA??? Maybe we have !!!

Or maybe he ran through all his money from his career and he's trying to avoid bankruptcy - wouldn't be the first - won't be the last

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johnrosz on Nov 20 at 20:20
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we will have a deal by Wednesday.

I have no idea why I think this

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Jeff reply to johnrosz on Nov 21 at 18:18
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I don't think the owners will meet with the players unless the lawsuits progress to a point where the owners feel they have less of a chance to win than previously thought. Obviously, it'll take a long time before that happens, if ever. Sorry to rain on your parade, but it's highly doubtful we have a season. Owners want a major overhaul and they're sticking to the plan.

I still think the players will cave in early January like in 98-99.

I'm not really excited about the Sixer's season anyway. We weren't getting the center we badly needed and I have a feeling that we might have lost Thad or compensated his ridiculous salary by trading Iguodala.

Either way, we would have a lesser team than last year. With a lost season we can resign Thad in 2012 due to Noc's expiring contract and use the amnesty clause on Brand's last year to sign a free agent. We do lose a year of Iguodala's prime but so does every other team who has a player 27+ in the league. At least I know that Iguodala will keep himself in shape during the off season.

Assuming voose is the 'center the sixers badly need' (a faulty premise with no evidence to prove it, and they kept thad at a reasonable price, and iguodala stayed on the team, the roster is still mediocre and not more than first round fodder.

I don't know how to feel about this. Hip hop was a crappy name, the costume was atrocious and the idea of a rabbit as your mascot is idiotic. However he was very talented and very entertaining.

They'll probably just put the diminutive tumbler in a different costume.

Pro basketball doesn't need mascots - it's silly

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Sharone Wright reply to Brian on Nov 22 at 14:26
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How about the lady on the unicycle who flips the cups onto her head?

I completely agree with this. I hated his name and outfit but dug his dunks, pretty incredible displays.

next mascot to be philly inspired aniaml, any guess on what the animal is?

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/76ers-next-mascot-a-Philly-inspired-animal.html?ref=twitter.com

*animal

Hmm....temple students?

What about having a blue collar lunch pail guy instead?

Um, this is Philadelphia, not Pittsburgh, or Cleveland or Cincinnati.

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 22 at 19:17
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Ummm,

Actually we Philadelphians are tough, hardworking, blue collar, lunch pail guys. We like our pro athletes the same way i.e Brian Dawkins, Cliff Lee, and Dr. J. You wouldn't get it, you're probably from New Jersey.

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johnrosz reply to Stan on Nov 22 at 22:08
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What's wrong with New Jersey

Nothing, unless you hate beaches, bars open till 3 and 4am, and sane gun laws.

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Ryan F reply to johnrosz on Nov 23 at 8:50
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Nothing, unless you love insane property tax, not being able to pump your own gas, jughandles, and tolls.

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Ryan F reply to Ryan F on Nov 23 at 8:52
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if*

See that question takes too long to answer

What's right with New Jersey? I guess having a fat governor who tells people to shut up?

I love a state where they won't even let you pump your own gas

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Stan reply to johnrosz on Nov 23 at 11:27
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Nothing unless you're a guido and loves the smell of sewage

No need to be a racist - and one ignorant of the Philadelphia make up at that too

Or have you never been to South Philadelphia?

Well actually, I grew up right outside Philadelphia, my sister got her PHD from temple, I got a full ride offer from Temple (that I passed on) my mother and father grew up in philadelphia and graduated from Penn.

Philadephia as a whole is not 'blue collar' any more than Boston or New York or Los Angeles are blue collar. A few guys doing construction doesn't make things blue collar.

I'm aware that philadelphia sports fans, especially sixers fans, love their untalented but 'try hard' players like Reggie Evans

I personally find it nothing to be proud of. And it's a tiresome nonsense attitude that has pervaded the city WAY to god damn long, and I pretty much blame ROcky

Lou Williams and DeSean rap duo? Seriously? We need to trade Lou asap.

well at least one player is keeping up with the team:

@thekidet (evan turner):

I just hear they got rid of Hip-Hop. I guess the recession and lockout is real. Its a damn shame when a mascot isn't safe smh lol

that's a pretty funny tweet.

WojYahooNBA NBA & players resumed talks on Tuesday to try & end lockout before cancellation of Christmas games, sources told Y!

Uh huh - according to Yahoo - Derek Fisher isn't there.

This isn't about christmas this is about putting on a show around thanksgiving when people might notice that while others can't afford a damn turkey the NBA is still arguing over billions. Hey look we're coming to gether to try and 'save' christmas

which means they need a deal by friday

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 26 at 0:16
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Except he's there now. He initially kept out of it in order to not give credence to the "the disclaimer's a sham" argument, him being the head of the union and all. I think that these talks are (a) real, (b) a foolish move on the players' part.

Happy Thanksgiving guys. It's been a long, long time since I didn't spend this weekend sneaking off to watch the Sixers games on my sling box. Anyway, enjoy your holiday and your families.

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Da Jruth reply to Brian on Nov 23 at 23:12
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Happy Thanksgiving to you and the family also. Such nice weather for tomorrow, might have to get a game of pickup going at the park. The NBA goes on hiatus, but the fever never does.

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Ryan F reply to Brian on Nov 24 at 13:20
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Same to you. Thanks as always for keeping this going. Hopefully we get to talk about the game soon.

I think ownership scrapping Hip Hop is a small but positive sign. It would be great if they would lose Zumoff but that will never happen.

DEAL DONE! Berger with the first report. DEAL FUCKING DONE!

YEEAAAHHHH!!!!!!! BRING ON VUCEVIC!!!!

Props to those of us who said they were always gonna settle! Hehe.

The lockout is OVER!!! Could it be??? Ugh where can i watch the press conference...

Thank goodness! It's been so upsetting thinking of Kevin Garnett not getting his paychecks.

hahahahaha. I hope the fans around the league boo the Celtics like never before for their pure obnoxious behavior during this whole mess.

One thing interesting about this settlement is that it shows us somewhat who has legit sources and who has BS sources. About a week and a half ago, Stephen A. Smith and Chris Broussard were both on First Take. Stephen A. predicted a settlement within 2 weeks based on his sources. Broussard predicted a cancelled season. Nice one Broussard. That dude is stealing money from ESPN. Glad to see his ineptitude on full display.

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Tray reply to stoned81 on Nov 26 at 5:55
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I don't know that that speaks to the quality of Broussard's sources. It's not as if the sides were secretly planning to reach a deal in 2 weeks. It depended on future events. It would seem the league was scared enough of the litigation to give enough up to get the players on board. And the players, at some point quite recently, made a tactical decision to enter settlement negotiations. But I don't think anyone knew that two weeks ago. Or could possibly know that there'd necessarily be a deal, even if they knew both of those things.

I think it shows that Broussard is not in tune with what's going on. He comes across as a complete fool in my opinion. Most of the writers said a settlement would happen. The idea that they were going to agree to a 50-50 split yet somehow also cancel the season was ludicrous. Broussard is a buffoon.

Noone knew what was going the happen. Even Stern didn't know when a deal could be reached, so all that has nothing to do about sources.

Anyway Ken Berger looked like the most informed journalist for the past few months and i think HE had the best "sources".

I think it shows that Stephen A. has a clue and Broussard doesn't. "I predict they will cancel the season." After already having agreed to a 50-50 split! What a moron. If he couldn't tell that the owners saying "we'll revert to 53-47" and the players filing a frivolous lawsuit were negotiating tactics, then Broussard is hopeless.

So i guess it's too early for details but here's what i've read so far:

- 4 year MLE for non-tax paying teams
- mini MLE for tax paying teams
- 10% escrow
- modified extend and trades
- 1% for retired players
- 3 days matching period for restricted free agents
- increased qualifying offers
- a strict luxury tax (less repeating tax payer penalties)


source:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/11/26/we-have-a-deal/

The weirdest thing is, it appears to me that this deal is not that different from the one the players already rejected 2 weeks ago. Apparently all that disclaim of interest thing was BS because it didn't win them anything. I have the feeling that this deal could've been reached much earlier.

P.S. Kessler apparently called in the negotiations via phone and asked for 51% which left the league team in shock....

Extend-and-trade deals –- as used by Carmelo Anthony and the New York Knicks last season –- will be modified but not eliminated in a new CBA. That could impact players such as Orlando’s Dwight Howard and New Jersey’s Deron Williams.

This was a BIG issue that the NBA want eliminated in the last rejected offer. They gave it back, thus giving blackmail power back to players.

Other compromises were believed to have been reached on the “repeater” luxury tax penalties to be paid by teams exceeding the tax threshold in four of any five seasons. Among the “B-list” issues are the age limit for entry to the draft (possibly upping to 20 years and two years out of high school), drug testing modifications, discipline and D League assignments.

I knew Stern would get that two year limit and I'm happy about it, it's better for the longer term success of the league and better evaluation of players entering the draft.

IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK

if the schedule doesnt change the sixers start on a 6 game road trip and 7 out of 8 on the road

but its sounding like the schedule will change

Make sense. Ice Capades!

Glad to see we can start talking basketball instead of labor. Even following a team that has been the definition of mediocrity over the past 7 years is a big step up :)

IMO the deal got done the national TV contracts start 12/25 and ESPN/TNT were not about to pay for no games so they exerted real pressure on the NBA. The networks have more leverage than the players.

Also, Kessler being sent to the corner probably helped. As far as I'm concerned that guy can go negotiate the next labor deal for the Siberian Bear Wrestling Federation.

What's amazing is he called in in a last-minute attempt to derail the settlement. When will the players realize this guy is about the billable hours and absolutely nothing else?

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Tray reply to stoned81 on Nov 26 at 14:45
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I doubt calling in and asking for 51% was something he just did on his own initiative.

And when you think about it, the union has to pay kessler probably over a grand just for that phone call he made last nite to try to stop the progress. Serves them right I guess.

I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic, you still need the details worked out, and the union to 're-certify' or whatever and you need a vote from the players and the owners.

It's good news no doubt but don't go counting chickens before the vote

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Nov 26 at 13:08
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I think there is a 99% chance this will happen.

It sounds like it will, but you know me, I'm a negative nelly :) Besides, part of me was ok with the missed season due to other plans, now I gotta rush to at least alpha test some stuff. :)

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 26 at 14:35
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It is, at least, theoretically possible that talks could break down over the B-list issues, like what the age limit will be. But not too likely. Reclaiming interest is a complete formality, so that's a non-issue.

Getting the players to sign off on something might be a major issue though - don't you think. There's been no player vote, at the moment there's no player union, and agents (big agents) get hurt in this deal, don't think they won't put up a fight, they are greedy bastards

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 26 at 15:44
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What option do the agents have? I don't see a world in which they get a better deal.

Agreed. The agents aren't going to fight this. If the players turned down this agreement, not only would the season be cancelled, but there is no question in my mind the owners would revert to hard-cap, no guaranteed contracts mode. Ultimately, the agents get their dough from guaranteed contracts. This is a foregone conclusion, a done deal. I'll give GoSixers credit for his persistence though, he was the only one here who continually insisted there was no hope for a deal, and he's hanging on even in the face of 100% of the evidence being against him. Gotta respect that perseverance haha.

Not sure anyone noticed or knew, but the nbpa.org web site i guess was taken down when the union changed its status.

Shame - the CBA was there

They did the error thing when they disclaimed interest.

Earlier someone posted that Dr J was selling his memorabilia. I don't know if anyone posted this article where the sixers (new owners) purchased the memorabilia AND are trying to get Dr J back as part of the franchise.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7266082/philadelphia-76ers-purchase-julius-dr-j-erving-items-auction-seek-return-franchise

I'm surprisingly not excited. Was kind of enjoying a quiet holiday weekend with the kids and pretty much all of my anger at the situation had turned to apathy. Guess I'll see how I feel tomorrow night.

See how you feel once they start going to camp and playing games.

Sigh - no mention of amnesty

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Turtle Bay reply to GoSixers on Nov 26 at 17:20
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Thanks for that - Only thing I saw from coon was that there would be a amnesty but has no idea what, rushing layout design / contest alpha set up

Doesn't count towards cap or tax - if that's for real - do the sixers cut brand?

Be interesting to think about how is going to get cut

Arenas and Rashard Lewis pop up immediately
Maybe Baron Davis?


Be some guys used to making a lot of money looking for work

not a chance in hell they pay Brand $35M to average 15/9 for another team.

Why the heck not - the sixers aren't going to win a title (or possibly even a playoff series) while they're paying brand, and giving him the amnesty gives them maneuverability to build around their younger core.

Thinking like yours, to me, is short sighted and foolish. The sixers without a massive shake up are mediocre at best.

2 reasons:

(1) they aren't going to find a replacement for his 15/9 production at PF without signing someone to a 4 or 5-year deal. If cap flexibility is what you want, you stick with Brand, who only has 2 years left.

(2) Money and principle. You can pay a guy $35M to average 15/9 for you team, or you can pay him $35M to average 15/9 for another team. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

1. You're missing the point of getting rid of brand to build towards the future - his 15/9 doesn't help them win a title

2. Sunk costs - if the owners want to try and build a winner - they're going to have to pay brand one way or another (and not 35 million a year and there's no guarantee he stays healthy) - but they aren't going to win a title (or even be building towards winning a title), if you waive brand now you have 17 million you can try and spend intelligently you didn't have before.

Course - the few comments and insights provided through newspapers don't make me think the new owners care about winning as much as their profit margins - so it's unlikely.

Sunk costs are sunk costs - i realie they'd have to spend more on the new contracts but they might be more intelligent than paying an aging vet on a team going nowhere

By that argument we should amnesty Iggy because his production this year won't help us win a title either, his contract is even worse for cap flexibility because it's 3 years.

I don't think this year is about winning a title. It's about winning a playoff round, which we haven't done in ages (the finals year?). Brand's 15/9 will absolutely help us make that next step this year. You can't go from Eddie Jordan to winning the championship in 2 years. Incremental steps, gradual improvement is realistic. This is the path and Brand helps us get there.

He has more trade value and longer amount of his career left than brand in my opinion

Longer career, yes, but I don't see that as relevant because Brand's career won't end before his contract ends. As for trade value, I don't think either has much. I personally think both are more helpful to this team on the court than whatever they could bring in a trade.

Brands relative value with his injury history and age when his contract ends makes him worth a lot less. I disagree with your points but its not going to be relevant because the owners probably won't use the Amnesty clause on either. They'll continue the mediocrity course that has been in place since the later years of the billy king era

Well we can definitely agree that the most likely scenario is not amnestying Brand.

And not amestynt anyone
Over paying thad
Voose being a bust
And losing in the first round
Rinse lather repeat

Voose will be sick. I think they'd amnesty Nocioni, because he's not going to play anyways, so they're not wasting any money.

The amnesty-worthy players are Travis Outlaw, Gilbert Arenas and the like. Sixers don't have any contracts that bad.

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tk76 reply to stoned81 on Nov 26 at 23:22
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If ET was perceived as a budding superstar (if he had been great last year) then you could make the argument that the Sixers should amnesty Brand and go after a you star big (Howard, Bynum or someone else through a trade.) But since the Sixers are seen as also-rans there is no sense of urgency for them to shake things up with that type of aggressive move.

If goose gets really sick maybe they can get insurance to pay his rookie deal then.

What is it with sixesrs fans and their love of untalented big white guys

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 26 at 18:14
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I wonder how you'll feel when (I guess if, but it looks good) you see Jrue and Collins back in training camp.

The S&T on over tax teams is in place for the first two seasons but then goes away.

Of course, it's not written yet, the players haven't dropped their lawsuits (x2) yet, the union hasn't reformed yet, the union hasn't then held a vote yet.

It was nice to see Hunter & Stern talking and 'smiling' but the union was losing faith in Hunter, I'd say it's most likely that this will pass, but I'm not 100% sure it will.

Some of the issues were silly to me - like the 'alternating' MLE years between 3 and 4 - seems ridiculous and overly complicated.

The parsing of the full MLE for teams under the tax I guess mattered to the players, makes more teams eligible to use it.

Extend and Trades not being taken out SUCKS

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 26 at 23:37
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Why don't you like extend and trades?

Personally, I don't like the extend and trade or sign and trade because they both pervert the purpose of the rule. Bird Rights were designed to give teams an edge in negotiations with their own talent. You. Would go beyond the Max and above the cap to keep a team together for the fans. Instead, players have leveraged that advantage for their own gain, at the cost of the fans. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways, either bird rights should have a tangible value to the team, or they should be done away with entirely and the Max should be the Max, the cap should be the cap. The melo situation was an absolute disgrace, as was lebron getting 10.5% increases on his sign and trade. Id prefer some kind of compensation through the draft with some teeth and a ranking of free agents to the mess we have now as "protection" for teams losing their talent.

Sounds like nothing much will be changing for the next 2 seasons- then some of the system changes kick in. Which coincides with when the Sixers should be trying to make their move.

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Tray reply to Brian on Nov 27 at 3:31
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I hadn't thought of it that way. But being a fan of player movement and player self-determination, if you will, my choice between your two alternatives would be to junk Bird rights. I also, of course, would have way higher maxes, making players like LeBron fairly compensated while rendering the formation of superteams essentially impossible.

I think Bird rights won't be available for the extend and trades (and sign and trades). At least that's what Billy Hunter told the players in his memo.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33507/billy-hunters-memo-to-players

The owners dropped their demand to eliminate extend-and-trades. As with sign-and-trades, players moving pursuant to an extend-and-trade may not receive Bird annual increases or one year longer maximum contract length.

So - Carmelo could sign his extension full length from the nuggets and then be traded to the knicks.

Still sounds like blackmail to me.

Player forces extension then trade, Deron Williams and Dwight Howard will do it this year, or the team gets nothing

They can still force a trade yes, just not the type of extension Anthony got if i am reading this correctly. They can only force to get the same deal they can get in free agency. It's not much but it's better than nothing i guess.

Maybe I misunderstand the meaning of the word persuant

I don't know English is not my native language, but this:

"may not receive Bird annual increases or one year longer maximum contract length"

sounds to me like no Bird rights will be available for the extend and traded player. I might be wrong but "pursuant" doesn't change anything...

Then look up the word persuant

To me it reads - a guy can be extended with bird rights and then traded, but he can't be traded and then extended, so there's still blackmail to be had.

In the old CBA weren't players prohibited to be traded for some time after they signed a deal? Not sure if that will work now. There is just too much unknown before everything gets official. It's gonna take a few days i guess.

P.S. I know what pursuant means.

I didn't know what persuant means, for sure, so I looked it up to be sure. I don't know if the nba treats a new contract and an extension for an unexpired contract as something different. (That's why I wanted NBPA to still be up with the old CBA...should have downloaded it earlier)

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 27 at 13:41
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No, I think xsago is right here. 'Pursuant' in this context just means 'in' or 'under.' It doesn't change anything.

If Thad makes 7M in 2012 and the amnestied Brand they would only have under 40M of salaries for:

Jrue/Lou
ET
Iguodala
Thad/Brackins
?/Voose

That leaves a full max contract that they can offer. It is a bummer that Howard would not take it.

Any other FA's worth going after this summer, or should they just wait for Brand and Lou to expire?

So if they amnesty Noce it will put them at 48M before likely re-signing Thad and Hawes.

For the next 2 years the cap is at 58M and the tax at 70M.

That leaves 10M for a FA and then another 12M for Thad/Hawes (hopefully less) because they could go up to the cap signing a FA and then use their Bird rights to go up to the tax to re-sign Thad.

So they could go after someone like Nene if they wanted to... I hope they don't. Any other bigs worth going after? De'Andre Jordan will likely be re-signed. I guess they could make a run at Gasol?

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Nov 26 at 23:58
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Correction, I left out Voose's rookie salary (1.5M?), so they likely will only have about 8.5M to throw at a FA.

About the amnesty rule, i think the best way to go at this point is to actually keep it for future use. There is no point in using it now. If you want to make a free agent splash (e.g. Howard, even though it's impossible) why not save the amnesty clause now, see if you can sign and trade for him and use the amnesty on Arenas or Turkoglu later or amnesty Brand later so you can sign Howard as a free agent. Amnestying Nocioni doesn't help in the long run IMO, unless they plan a free agent splash this season, which is insane considering how little time they have. And i don't see the reason why they should amnesty Brand right away. No high profile player would like to come to the Sixers if they don't show they are a winner this season, and without Brand all that would be much harder.

The above with Howard is just an example but it works for trades with different teams as well.

Agreed. If amnesty clause can be used at any point in the labor agreement, save it for a Travis Outlaw-type screwup. Nocioni's $6.7M savings in a year when there are no big-name free agents anyway is not worth wasting the amnesty clause.

I think the amnesty clause will be available for future use but only for contracts that already exist. So you can't use it on a future screwup but you can use it after a trade for someone elses existing screwup. At least that's the way i understand how it works, no official details out yet. Additionally, you can always use it on Brand next year to have more cap space, no need to amnesty him now.

The amnesty as originally stated by the owners was available every year for contracts existing before the new CBA - so multiple amnesty's seemed possible. The full official agreement hasn't been made public yet so we don't know for sure which amnesty will be in the new CBA. Who knows it might revert to the 'you have to use it before the beginning of the next season' like in the last cba

Ah yeah, existing contracts only would make sense. In that case I'd say use it on Nocioni or don't use it.

so why use it on brand if in two years he's expiring anyway

so why use it on nocioni if he's expiring anyway?

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deepsixersuede on Nov 27 at 8:34
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I think the good teams will benefit the most over the next few seasons and Miami may turn into the Bulls if certain guys get amnestied. With that in mind I hope our new ownership wishes to start over.

Buy out Nucioni, amnesty Elton and move Iggy to a team with capspace for a combination of capspace, a young talent that compliments Jrue and Turner and or a pick in the upcoming draft. As tk mentioned play Thad and Brackins at the 4 and rebuild for 2 years down the road.

If you're trying to re-build for 2 years from now, why are you amnestying Elton? He expires in 2 years. Save the amnesty for a monumental screwup (if it can be saved).

Can't imagine Nocioni would accept anything less than his full salary in a buyout. He has no incentive, no other team is going to want him.

because you create cap room now that can be used to acquire assets that can be useful in the future, but it's a point you don't see - you'd rather have his 15/9 on a first round loser

It's not a point I don't see; it's a point I disagree with.

Actually, as far as I can tell you refuse to acknowledge the other point - you're obsessed with 15/9 (which you think he'll continue to produce) like it matters to this team winning a title in the next two years

Of course, you think the sixers have a good center now too

Well I disagree with your premise that 15/9 means nothing because we're not going to win the championship. As I said before, I think winning a playoff series this year is the goal. Brand helps with that. Some people think a season is worthless unless you win the title. I don't. You can't go from Eddie Jordan to a title in 2 years.

As for our new center, you assume he's terrible, and the dude hasn't played a game yet. You may be right, you may be wrong, but it's silly to assume you're right. The only basketball we have to go on, his USC and Montenegro games, the dude brings it. So far the evidence is against you. We'll get a better idea in the next couple months.

Howard Beck Twitter has Scheduling information

http://twitter.com/#!/HowardBeckNYT

Wow, sounds like the schedule is going to be a mess. I have no idea why they didn't make it 2 games with each team, 4 games with your in-division foes (25*2+4*4=66). That sounds much fairer to me.

The back-to-back-to-backs were expected but not playing against everyone equally is going to screw some teams up. Some teams might end up in the playoffs simply because they have a much easier schedule.

Because, in general, the nba schedule is set up so you play more games against the other divisions in your conference than the other conference. (i.e. more games for the sixers against the central and southeast teams than the western conference teams), plus you're not taking into account travel logistics which are a much bigger problem with a compressed schedule.

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Tom Moore on Nov 27 at 15:38
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Hmm

I'm thinking the whole MLE thing is something new ownership won't use

Of course is they 'crave' a 20ppg scorer, they can just go get monta ellis - brian will be happy :)

It is interesting that you have already determined that the new owners will be cheap and make poor decisions? Or maybe I am reading too much into your comments about them?

Just because they got the franchise for a good price and come from a finance backround, why are you assuming they will never spend? It sort of reminds me of how people crucify Laurie and Banner for being cheap, and yet there is no real evidence that this has ever been the case.

IMO, stupid overspending is just as dangerous as being "cheap."

I have nothing more than my gut, which I listen to usually. We'll see.

You could be right. I'm still going to hold out hope that the new owners will surprise us (and usher in a golden age.)

I'll probably have some thoughts later tonight, just got home, going to watch the Birds. If they lose it'll be business as usual here later tonight, I think.

Lucky you - I am tortured by the afc west right now - better for web site building i guess :)

Ok so here are the official terms of the tentative agreement:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sam_amick/11/26/tentative.deal/index.html?sct=nba_t2_a4

Apparently no extend and trade for 6 months after contract is signed. Also Bird rights won't hold for sign and trades.

Given the Sixers will be about 8M under the cap, might as well bid on:

Haywood
Roy
Miller

Although the SIxers will more likely go after soft players like Okur and CV.

Or maybe the sixers aren't likely to go for anyone
They may waive Nocioni but they still gotta pay him
The budget consciousness of ownership will become apparent almost immediately

this is a breakdown of every team's salary position going into free agency

http://www.blazersedge.com/2011/11/26/2587619/each-nba-teams-salary-position-going-into-free-agency

tk76

if you still have my email address, could you drop me a line, i'm through 'phase 1' of something i wanna do and i'm looking for input

Sure, I'll look for it.

Could not quickly find it. Maybe Brian can send it to my email?

If he has a moment that would be cool

Done.


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