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Amnesty For Nocioni?

Anyway, to sum up my thoughts. The amnesty clause could be a very powerful tool a team could use, the Sixers are especially in a position to make a big splash next summer (assuming it can be held over). They don't have to use it and unless there's a serious, meaningful plan behind it, they shouldn't use it on Nocioni just because they can. And no, I don't consider adding Kwame Brown as a serious, meaningful plan.

Charlie H reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 17:55

Signing Sammy makes a lot more sense.

MLE from the sixers or MLE from Miami
Which would you take?

Where'd you come up with 20 million for four years? You just think that's the going rate for a Kwame Brown? For what it's worth, I'd much rather have him than Hawes. Especially when Vucevic is our other center. Of course, I'd be okay with a gaping hole at center for now too.

That's the max MLE deal. And if they need to amnesty nocioni to be able to afford Brown, that's probably the range we're talking.

I'm not sure about Thad's (and Hawes) cap hold but i am pretty sure that if they amnesty Nocioni they will be under the cap so they don't really need to use the MLE. Also there is a new exception of 2.5 million for teams slightly under the cap.

Also if they do get under the cap maybe they have a chance to get some of the amnestied players at a discount. Just dreaming here, the Sixers getting a player at a discount?!?!?

All that being said, cutting Nocioni is completely worthless at this point. I would much rather target teams that have multiple bad contracts as trade targets and try to squeeze something out of them so we can eat up the bad contract. Hello Orlando :)

Court_visioN on Nov 28 at 2:24

Kwame Brown isn't ball friendly.

Ryan F reply to Court_visioN on Nov 28 at 7:42

He doesn't get after it much either.

deepsixersuede on Nov 28 at 7:36

I think a buyout makes the most sense with a possible million savings on the cap, if Nocioni is told he is not in this teams plans and he can go home and recoup that million over a contract overseas.

If this team wants to win and build off of this year than K. Brown makes sense in a lot of ways. He is the anti Hawes as far as what he gives a team and is young enough to stick around for a little bit. He should bring some physicality to the 5 spot and I would hope he can set some solid screens with that 270 lbs. of his.

A name not being mentioned is L.Will. for amnesty. If Young is given a fairly big deal and kept in his current role, and Meeks is moved to the bench by Turner than a pass first defensive p.g. off the bench makes more sense than Lou, and in my opinion that could improve the team greatly.

deepsixersuede reply to deepsixersuede on Nov 28 at 7:40

And to add to my previous comment, hopefully Vuce would be more involved with the bench unit offensively if Lou is gone.

Thorpe's next tweet read, "ooops not Kwame, just a center to battle Hawes..."

There is gonna be a thousand ridiculous rumors between now and December 9. Let's see what the new ownership group does before throwing them under the bus.

battle? So they're going to pay Hawes 4 million dollars and have him battle for a starting position with a guy that they signed off the street?

Anyone who submitted an entry to newsixersowner.com before 11/19 will be getting a free ticket. Not sure if it's because less than 1776 people did it, or I'd they're actually being generous.. But good to hear.

Where can I find stats/info on what Vucevic did over the summer?

My guess is that he ran really slow, didn't jump very high at all, played against a bunch of guys who were smaller than him and not very athletic at all, and he still took way too many jumpers.

But he got lots of points and rebounds - he's going to be a STAR

I'll have a post up on LB about him in the next day or two.

Harvis Gravy on Nov 28 at 8:57

If by summer you mean fall...


Plays for Budnacost in the Adriatic.

Harvis Gravy on Nov 28 at 9:20

Brian, could you please describe what you mean by blind auction? Is this much different than normal free agent negotiations?


Teams submit a silent / private bid - once - highest bid (percentage) wins.

If you follow baseball it's similar to a 'posting fee' for a foreign player not subject to the MLB Draft

goodgravy on Nov 28 at 9:37

"After attending the last failed bargaining session to possibly end the NBA lockout in New York on Monday, Kobe Bryant was in a psychology classroom this week at the University of California-Santa Barbara answering questions from students and a professor about his stellar 15-year career. At one point, Bryant was asked about his lone most valuable player award in 2008 and used it as an opportunity to share a story about his former teammate and forever Wizard Kwame Brown...."

"...Brown has had a serviceable yet undistinguished career that fell well short of expectations. But Bryant’s hilariously-delivered tale of Brown’s final game with the Lakers perhaps offered a glimpse into how confidence — or a lack thereof — contributed to his early career struggles in Washington and Los Angeles...."

goodgravy on Nov 28 at 9:38

"... “I got to say, it was tough doing it that year. I was playing with guys, God bless them — God bless them — but Kwame Brown. Smush Parker. We had one game right before…by the way, what I say here, I say directly to them, see what I’m saying, I don’t talk behind people’s back. Things that I say to you, I’m comfortable saying this to them and I’ve said this to them...But like, the game before we traded for Pau, were playing Detroit and I had like 40 points towards the end of the game. This is back when Detroit had Rasheed [Wallace], Chauncey [Billups] and those guys, so we had no business being in the game. So down the stretch of the game, they put in a box and one. So I’m surrounded by these players, Detroit players, and Kwame is under the basket, all by himself. Literally, like all by himself. So I pass him the ball, he bobbled it and it goes out of bounds.

“So we go back to the timeout and I’m [upset], right? He goes, ‘I was wide open.’ ‘Yeah, I know.’ This is how I’m talking to him, like, during the game. I said, ‘You’re going to be open again, Kwame, because Rasheed is just totally ignoring you.’ He said, ‘Well, if I’m open don’t throw it to me.’ I was like, ‘Huh?’ He said, ‘Don’t throw it to me.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, well, ‘I’m nervous. If I catch it and they foul me, I won’t make the free throws.’ I said, ‘Hell no!’

“I go to Phil [Jackson], I say, ‘Hey Phil, take him out of the game.’ He’s like, ‘Nah, let him figure it out.’ So, we lose the game, I go the locker room, I’m steaming. Steaming. I’m furious. Then, finally I get a call, they said, ‘You know what, we got something that’s happening with Pau.’ I was like, ‘Alright. Cool.’…That’s what I had to deal with the whole year.”

Kwame Brown may be a step in the right direction- unless we give him a deal for more than 2 years.

No longer are we looking for big men that can "stretch the floor"

I would also like to point out that signing Kwame may be final piece that convinces Dwight to sign here-

“Hey, wouldn’t I look great here next to Kwame? Twin Towers – Kwame and me.’’

The Greek on Nov 28 at 10:01

Brian, if the sixers choose not to use the amnesty clause now how long can they hold on to it? is there a time limit to use this? Can we hold onto it for 2 years or so?

It's unclear, at least to me, at this point. I read earlier that teams could use the amnesty next year, and that's my assumption right now, but I haven't done all the reading, haven't had time yet.

They can use it at any point during the duration of the new CBA. They can only use it on existing contracts though, signed before July 1st 2011. And they can use it only once.

Honestly, i seriously doubt there will be that many amnestied players. The new minimum salary restriction is going to prevent a lot of the under-performing teams to amnesty their own bad contracts. We will only see amnestied players if they solve any salary cap or tax related issues important for the team (financially or roster wise).

There you go.

Smart teams are going to use this to tremendous advantage, dumb teams will either waste it or won't use it at all.

The way it originally read to me in the 'rejected' proposal was that it could be used more than once, only on contracts in place. Derek's article seems to indicate it's only once, maybe I read it wrong or maybe it changed.

I don't think the new CBA does as much that the NBA wanted to allow 'competitiveness' but I don't think that was ever a realistic goal based on how they thought about it. You can't even a playing field when there is a chasm of 'intellectual ability' between some teams. The Knicks, the Yankees, the Eagles, they've demonstrated you can't 'buy' a title without a plan some times.

Luck of course will still play an issue and I'm waiting to see if that 'b list' includes the 20 year old age limit

The Greek on Nov 28 at 10:11

I got my answer, just read Bodners article.

"The MLE is now four years and will start at $5 million. Teams near or over the luxury tax line will be limited in the amount they can spend, being restricted to only adding a MLE deal up to $74 million in total salary (in the first year). A team with $69.5 million in commitments, for example, is limited to $4.5 million for the MLE. Teams over that amount can offer a mini MLE of three years starting at $3 million. The Bi-Annual Exception remains. A new exception worth $2.5 million is available to teams who use all their cap space to sign free agents."

Does this mean that all MLE contracts will be worth 5 million for the first year, unless the team is less than 5 million dollars under the luxury tax threshold? A team can't use the MLE to sign a player for over 5 million in the first year, right?

Right. They can use it for less than $5M anytime, though.

Extension-and-trades permitted, except maximum length of any such extended contract is 3 years (e.g., 2 new years if player during last year of his old contract) and max annual increases are 4.5 percent. If a player signs a contract extension for a longer period or higher amount than would have been permitted for an extension-and-trade, then the team is prohibited from trading the player for a period of six months following the date of the extension. If a team acquires a player in a trade, then, for a period of six months following the date of the trade, the team is prohibited from signing the player to a contract extension for a longer period or higher amount than would have been permitted for an extension-and-trade.

This is just a weird paragraph to me. Expect it will lead to more 'handshake' agreements (that aren't public)

"The luxury tax will be raised for each $5 million over the defined luxury tax level starting in 2013-14. The first $5 million will be taxed at $1.50 per dollar, the next $5 million at $1.75 per dollar, the next $5 million at $2.25 per dollar, and starting at $15 million over each dollar is taxed at $3 per."

"For the next two seasons the tax will remain the same, one dollar for each dollar spent over."

L.A got lucky, if this had started this year and if they didn't use the amnesty clause, they would have had to pay 40 million in luxury tax instead of 17 million.

I wonder who they'll cut. Bryant, Gasol, and Bynum should be out of the equation. It will come down to Odom, Artest, or Walton

Is fisher under contract? Just like the 'irony' of that :)

3.4 million with a player option next year. It would be funny but Walton is more deserving of a cut then Fisher.

Oh absolutely he is, and they need fisher actually, i don't think blake is much of a back up (it is blake right?)

I'm actually more interested in the bidding on waived players, can capped out teams bid or is it only a cap space thing?

I think a full off season would mean more waivers, with this compressed thing I don't see it happening

Here's a fun game, guess the amnesty for each team:

Atlanta: Probably none. Maybe Joe Johnson eventually. They might use it on Marvin Williams, but it won't clear any cap space for them.

Boston: Jermaine O'Neal, maybe. Probably no one.

Charlotte: Diaw, Diop or Carroll. I'd go w/ Diop.

Chicago: Probably no one.

Cleveland: Baron Davis.

Dallas: Haywood if they want to re-sign Chandler.

Denver: Al Harrington

Detroit: Rip, Gordon, Maxielle or Charlie V. All viable candidates, I'd probably go with Charlie V.

Golden State: Biedrins, but probably won't happen.

Houston: Thabeet! Probably won't happen unless they want a free agent this year.

Indy: James Posey, but they don't need to. Have a ton of cap space as it is.

Clippers: Mo Williams, but it won't happen unless Sterling can then not pay Williams and wind up being sued.

Lakers: Luke Walton. Would actually save them a decent chunk of money when you take lux tax into account.

Memphis: Probably no one.

Miami: Should get rid of Mike Miller because he's a stiff and they can get more for that money, but probably no one.

Milwaukee: Drew Gooden, but I doubt they'd eat that entire contract.

Minny: Martell Webster or Brad Miller if they want some more cap space this summer.

NJ: Travis Outlaw. I'd say this will definitely happen either this year or next.

New Orleans: Not going to happen unless they get a new owner, then Ariza.

Knicks: No one, unless they need to clear some room next summer.

OKC: No one this year, but maybe Perkins in the coming years if/when they realize he's a shell of what he was physically.

Orlando: Gilbert or Hedo. I think this is probably going to happen if they're serious about keeping Howard.

Philly: Brand next year to clear space for Dwight if they're smart. Nocioni this year to clear space for garbage if they're not.

Phoenix: Josh Childress, but I doubt it happens.

Portland: Brandon Roy. Probably going to happen.

Sacto: John Salmons. Should happen, he's overpaid, but they have so much cap room they won't do it. They'd never be able to reach the floor.

San Antonio: Richard Jefferson? Probably no one.

Toronto: If they had any clue it would be Bargnani, but they just hired Stefanski so i'm going to say no one.

Utah: Maybe Okur if he can't play. I'd get rid of Jefferson but they won't.

Washington: Rashard without thinking twice about it.

Chicago could use cut Boozer next year. Doing that will bring their committed salary to 35 million. They could use the remaining cap space to resign Rose and sign Dwight. They could probably trade Joakim, Deng, Brewer or Korver for an expiring contract to get more aggressive in next year's FA.

That's an interesting scenario indeed. I wonder if Noah becomes available in order to make that happen.

Actually come to think of it i have no idea why noone mentions Chicago as a possible destination for Howard. I'm sure that if Howard tells Orlando he is leaving noone will be able to match a Noah + Deng(Boozer) + filler for Howard + Arenas. They can amnesty Arenas then and proceed with a core of Rose/Howard/Boozer(Deng) with key role players such as Asik Gibson and Korver also under contract.

I thought Stan's idea for the bulls was kind of over reaching, though yeah Howard is a good get for anyone.

I believe that through back channels, Howard made it clear where he would like to go, and that Chicago didn't make the list - isn't that how the teams that came out came out?

New Jersey/Brooklyn could be interesting, time to see what Pokhorov is really made of.

I'd say Baron Davis, Walton, Arenas, Hamilton and Roy are very likely to happen this year. Outlaw, Lewis, Diop and Haywood might happen depending on the situation.

What about Washington - They're going to dump rashard right?

Hit submit too early. Added the rest of the teams now.

Second, if you're planning on giving Thad a monster extension, you might need the room.

Or a new team to root for

Howard is the only UFA worth signing in the next two years. I'm not sure if I want to risk losing Thad for the slim chance of being able to sign Howard. Without Thad, we're not making the playoffs.

Deron Williams and Chris Paul are both FAs. Love is an RFA, same with Blake. Though I doubt either of those guys are going anywhere under the new CBA.

I'm satisfied with Jrue. I don't think he'll ever be on the same level as Paul or Deron, but I do think that he is quality PG, one who would be a central piece for a championship team.

Nonsense, I like jrue, but if you can get Paul is Deron, you get em.

I think Love might become available actually. His situation in Minny has been tricky throughout his career and i wouldn't be surprised if they decided Derrick Williams is their future PF and dealt Love for a wing or a center. would you trade Iguodala for Love? I most certainly would i'd even add a pick (or anyone else outside of Jrue and Turner) to do it.

I think deciding that Derrick Williams is the future before he steps foot on the court is foolishness.

I didn't say they will make the decision right now but during the season or more likely after it. It's far from a obvious scenario but i wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

I'm never surprised at what the Timberwolves do, but Williams would have to be a run away rookie of the year to supplant Love. Love is good.

. Without Thad, we're not making the playoffs.

With Thad signed to a long term extension you have less maneuverability and a pretty set roster destined for mediocrity.

Same argument for keeping brand - the sixers aren't winning a title with either any time soon but dear god they'll host a couple playoff games won't they.

Brian - never underestimate the powers of Sterling in regards to blake griffin

To tell you the truth, I don't really care about winning a championship. We would need a lot of luck in order for that to happen. Right now I would be satisfied with a 6th seed or higher and a series win in the first round of the playoffs.

I know signing Thad won't get you that far, but resigning him and adding a few pieces here and there along with Turner's development can get you to that level.

Re-signing Thad wouldn't take us out of the hunt for Dwight Howard next summer. Using the amnesty on Nocioni to re-sign Thad would.

What's the max they can sign Thad for if they sign Vuc and rescind their offer to Hawes?

I don't think you can sing Thad unless you use the amnesty clause on Nocioni.

If you use it on Brand we won't make the playoffs. Why would Dwight sign with a team that couldn't make the playoffs?

Without rescinding Nocioni, they have about $14m to sign both Hawes and Thad before hitting the luxury tax, which would leave them at 12 players. To realistically sign 2 minimum contract guys, they'll need Thad + Hawes this year to be ~$12m.

If they have to spend 14 million to keep two bench guys I'm going to be bummed

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 12:13

And basically 31 million for 5 bench players if Turner doesn't improve.

No reason to believe he won't improve, history says he will...the one who won't improve, which is sad, is Speights

I'm not saying you use it on Brand this year. That only makes sense to me if you're planning on using the money to sign someone this season and/or tanking. But you can use it on Brand next summer to clear a ton of cap space.

Nocioni and Speights come off the books next summer, and I think there's probably a 90% chance Lou doesn't exercise his team option, which would put the Sixers at about $43.9M plus whatever Thad's salary is for next year, plus Hawes if he's re-signed for multiple years. So say Thad's number is $10M next year, then they're at $53.9M. If you amnesty Brand next year, you've got room for a max contract, plus another maybe $7M, maybe more.

Of course, if you sign Kwame Brown this year, then that eats into it. And if you amnesty Nocioni this year, then you aren't a player next year in any meaningful way unless you can find a sign and trade for Brand's expiring contract.

Each team permitted to waive 1 player prior to any season of the CBA (only for contracts in place at the inception of the CBA) and have 100% of the player’s salary removed from team salary for Cap and Tax purposes.

Is it just inferred that you can only use this amnesty once? To me it says the sixers (could) waive Nocioni this year, brand next year if they wanted?

Yes. Just once, only before the season, and only for contracts signed before July 1st 2011.

I understood the pre 2011 thing but I just felt the way it was worded left wiggle room for more than one waiving (which some teams would be happy about I'm sure) :)

Stan reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 12:10

That makes more sense then. I was under the impression that the Sixers would have only been able to sign Thad to about 5 million this year if they didn't rescind Nocioni.

They can sign Thad at any price without needing to amnesty Nocioni. I don't think they are even in danger of getting to the tax level.

They are in danger. If Hawes signs his QO, then Thad can't sign for more than maybe $8M this year without the team butting up against the luxury tax once you factor in a couple of minimum contracts.

Can we use the Amnesty Clause on Kwame Brown?

Just joking, I think.

No, but they'll be able to use the stretch exemption next summer when they admit it was a bad idea. http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/28/nba-news-stretch-exception/

The stretch exception + the higher minimum team salary will even the field in money spent IMO quite a bit but the impact on competitiveness will be limited. The only way competitiveness will be maximized (it will still be far from perfect) is by having a true hard cap. Even then we won't have a competitive field fighting for a championship of 20 teams but having 10-12 teams more or less even wouldn't surprise me. And now with the current modifications the number will only increase from 3-4 to 4-6 competitive teams.

I don't believe the current modifications are going to help any teams be more competitive, and I don't think you'll be able to truly see an impact for a year or two.

There are going to be some dumb contracts (as always) handed out this off season because of the compressed free agency.

The two teams that are key to see what the new cba is going to do over the next year are of course new jersey and orlando

I doubt there will be significant impact in the first two season as well. A lot of the important modifications kick in after that anyway.

It all depends on where Howard and D.Williams want to go. It's not the same situation as Anthony because Anthony could've signed with the Knicks in the summer anyway (or as it turned out in December). Howard and Williams and Paul don't have the same leverage because there probably won't be a team they would strongly like to go to sufficiently under the cap (max deal or close to it). Aside from the Knicks who i'm not sure will even be able to afford another max deal at all, is there another potential target for these guys? Lakers, bulls, Mavs and the like are teams these guys would like to go to, but they have no real leverage to persuade the Magic, Nets and Hornets to trade them to.

Fagan today:

"The Sixers have always been irrationally averse to trading Iguodala. It's known throughout the league that, while the team will occasionally reach out to teams to test the waters, they very often pull back and slam shut the door. I believe that now that general manager Ed Stefanski, who signed Iguodala to his long-term deal, is no longer in the front office, the possibility increases that the Sixers truly and really loosen their hold on Iguodala. Because he's the best player on the team, and a very valuable player overall, the Sixers will need to receive a key piece in return: a top-10 shooting guard, or someone very close to that status."

She wants Monta bad.

He's the best player on the team and a very valuable player overall

I'm curios how she defines top 10 shooting guard.

Sigh, meant to say that if that's how she defines him why should he be traded?

She defines it as Monta Ellis, I'm sure. She's got a chat at 3pm today, you can ask her then.

It would be so sweet to add Kwame Brown and Monta Ellis. This team would really turn the corner with those two guys.

Rich reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 12:30

Oh they'd turn a corner alright. Pretty sure it would be the wrong one though.

Jeff reply to Rich on Nov 28 at 13:19

Let's say this does happen - Monta and Kwame on our team

What excuse would she make to her readers to maintain her "credibility" once the team sucks ass?

I keep thinking she only saying this because she knows it won't happen, and because it won't happen she can then turn to the "See, I told you so" argument.

At least, I would like to think that.

I think she's saying what she says to keep her job, it's what appeals to the majority of the 'fans' who read and comment on philly.com. She's feeding the beast that keeps her employed. I don't respect it, but I can understand it, she's employed in a dying medium and needs to figure out how to get those eyeballs, beating the 'anti iguodala' drum will do that.

Writers like her would just find someone else to blame - for instance - with a massive roster shake up like that - collins obviously wouldn't be the right coach he's too old schools or some nonsense.

PS - did collins ever coach kwame yet?

Jeff reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 13:32

This made me laugh (via wikipedia)...

"Following a pre-draft workout with the Wizards, it has been reported that Brown told then-Wizards coach Doug Collins, 'If you draft me, you'll never regret it.'"

I'm pretty sure I have bigger hands than him. At least, I can palm a basketball. Can he?

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 12:51

A guy who can hit "clutch shots", dominate the ball on offense, and score more than 20 ppg.

Based on her logic, Ellis will be the "go to scorer" which will take the scoring load and pressure of the young guys, Jrue and ET.

He will hit clutch shots that will inspire ET and Jrue to play better.

We won't need to worry about defense since we will score on every one of our possesions and for every 2 points that the opponent scores we will score 3.

Also, according on WIP, Iguodala is a bad influence for the younger players. We need to get rid of him ASAP.

I just threw up in my mouth a little

"Also, according on WIP, Iguodala is a bad influence for the younger players. We need to get rid of him ASAP."

BTW, Are Monta and Desean Jackson the same person? I'm sure Monta would be a much better influence?

At least Monta and Kwame would mesh. Kwame doesn't want the ball thrown to him, and Monta doesn't want to throw the ball to anyone.

Come on - you love monta ellis - you know it

maybe they can package it - brand and iguodala for ellis, biedrins and david lee

Well, Lee and Ellis will obviously be great defenders. The problem is they've just never been asked to defend. Duh.

Yeah, Monta just has never been asked to play defense.


That lack of effort is purely because they don't have to do it

Stan reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 13:19

You also have to remember that Lee and Ellis have never had a good team to work with. Pairing them up with Lou Will, Thad and ET will make them unstoppable.

Jeff reply to Stan on Nov 28 at 13:22

I'm really just hoping that she's pandering to her dumb readers who drool over the idea of a pseudo-Iverson, 20ppg scorer.

Stan reply to tk76 on Nov 28 at 13:15

I had no problem with DeSean until this year. He has been dropping passes and has been letting CBs get interceptions on the deep balls. His taunting penatly was inexcusable. But that last straw for me was when teamed up with Lou to make a rap single. I say we draft Justin Blackmon and let DeSean walk. He's not worth the 10 million he is demanding.

It's amazing how you didn't have a problem with Desean until the Eagles started losing.

Desean is being desean - even his 'greatest' play against the giants with that punt return he was showboating - he fumbled a touchdown his rookie year showboating (wasn't called)

Desean has always been desean - but now the eagles aren't good so it's a problem.

If you didn't have a problem with him before this year, having one now is purely hypocrisy (though typical of a sports fan, you forgive a lot more when your team is winning)

combine that with contract issues which always piss fans of because 'he gets paid to play a game' - and the fact that ANDY REID screwed up this off season has people going after desean.

Andy Reid hired castillo, andy reid encouraged a bad contract to Vick, andy reid thought the defense wasn't going to suck.

This season is Andy Reids fault - not Desean Jacksons (don't give me, but vick got hurt, vick gets hurt every year)

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 13:29

I really don't think his punt return was showboating. I honestly think that he was cocky enough to believe that the whole punt return took less than 5 seconds. Other than that he hasn't been a major problem. He used to go after the ball, but now it seems that he doesn't catch the ball anymore unless it hits him in stride. I can think of 4 times this season that a deep ball thrown for him has been intercepted.

Vick's contract isn't a major issue, I still think he's a good QB. I just can't believe that Andy went into this season with Juan as his DC and Casey Matthews as his MIKE.

Vick's contract isn't a major issue, I still think he's a good QB.

We vehemently disagree there

I think teams weren't as ready for Vick last year as they were this year, they remembered how to shut him down and he reverted.

Much like the 'tebow' phenomenon - it's tough to switch mid stream - but if the broncos start him next year - they'll have their running game stuffed a lot more - and tebow will have to throw - which he just sucks at

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 13:40

I disagree. He's not a top 5 QB, but I don't think the team's struggles have to do with him. The losses against ATL, BUF, and SF were not his fault IMO. He could have played better vs. CHI, and he should have taken himself out of the game vs. NYG and ARI.

He's not a top 5 qb
but he's worth 100 million dollar contract?
Admittedly I haven't seen all the games this year because I don't have directv and live in california but from what I did see - he's back to being inaccurate, he's running too quickly and teams are sacking him more easily (not totally his fault) and thus he's injured again.

Is Andy Dalton having a better season than vick?

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 14:09

He scored 31 pts against ATL before getting injured on a pass play

He scores 16 points vs. NYG before getting injured in the 3rd quarter. On the first drive of the game he throws a pass in the RZ to Steve Smith which gets dropped and intercepted by Aaron Ross.

He throws for 400+ yards vs. SF. He puts the team in FG position on the final drive and loses the game on the final play when Maclin fumbles the ball.

He comes back from a 17 point deficit vs. BUF by scoring 10 straight only to have Jason Avant fumble the ball in the RZ on the final drive.

He has missed some throws and he did play like crap vs. CHI. But he is not the problem when it comes to this team.

A quarterback who consistently doesn't start 16 games in a season is a problem - period - in my opinion

Honestly, I'd rather examine how the roster will look with Kwame than rehash this disgrace of an Eagles season right now.

The sixers have hired a genetecist and are hoping that they can sign kwame, and take the best of kwame, hawes, and voose to create the ultimate serviceable center

Mike Gmninski 2.0?

I don't have a problem w/ the antics now anymore than I did when he was a rookie. I do have a problem with dropping multiple touchdowns, though.

I think there are bigger problems than desean - that's all
The defense can't stop anyone - that's a problem

There are obviously bigger problems than DeSean, that doesn't mean it's OK to drop a couple touchdown passes, though.

Stan reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 13:43

All of the WRs have sucked this year. Each one of them have made a crucial drop or fumble this season.

jsmoove reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 16:23

Hypocrisy? Like deriding posters last year for saying Turner was a bust (relative to his draft position) after a forgettable summer league and a quarter of a season, only to now call Vucevic a bust before he even plays one game?

That kind of pure hypocrisy?

I ever really had a problem with hoim, but I agree with what you brought up.

I don't have a problem with Monta, other than I'd rather him not be a Sixer.

That said, they should have at least tried to pay Jackson close to market value. Now they are going to end up having a bad outcome.

Good to see she's back to beating her trade Iguodala drum.

Stan reply to Rich on Nov 28 at 12:31

I love how ET can't crack the starting lineup but she is willing to pencil him in as the starting SF.I don't understand her logic, if it doesn't help the team and it doesn help the cap situation, why make the move?

How awesome would this lineup be?-


I'm pretty sure her logic is that 90% of her moronic readers keep saying IGGY SUX!!! So she thinks she has to write about trading him to keep them reading.

Jeff reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 13:27

I'd say more than 90%. It's true philly spirit to absolutely hate someone for not being the messiah.

Well - I'd say 100% of her moronic readers hate Andre Iguodala, miss iverson and thought reggie evans was awesome

But not all her readers are morons :)

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 13:33

Reggie Evans was awesome, just overpaid. If he had an offensive game and could jump higher he would have been a special player.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle?

Reggie evans sucked

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 16:26

He was an effective player when it came to getting rebounds. He's a decent rotational player to have. We could have really used him in the playoffs.

If you say so

There's two ends to the court, and just like hawes overall impact sucks because of his defense, evans inability to make put backs from one foot in make him an offensive albtraoss

His defense was also vastly over rated in my opinion including his rebounding ability

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 16:40

"A 2005 statistical analysis published on ESPN determined that on average, Evans will rebound one quarter of all shots missed while he is in a game."

We struggled to get defensive rebounds. I would rather have him miss 75% of his put back shots and prevent second chance points on defense than have Hawes out there on the floor.

Well, I'm glad ESPN did a statistical analysis to come up with a widely-available statistic. Also, that was six years ago.

But really, they both suck, what's the use in arguing one over the other?

Stan reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 16:46

But Reggie sucks less

Whatever. You win. Who cares.

Stan reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 16:50

Normally I wouldn't, but I'm arguing against GoSixers.

Your arguing against yourself because you haven't made a valid persuasive point in my mind.

Nothing you said indicates that reggie evans didn't suck

I wonder how the new management feels about Hawes. I know he sucks but he is better than Speights and Vucevic. I wonder if there are any centers out there that would sign for less than 2 million and can play 35+ minutes a game without being a liability.

How do you guys feel about Alexis Ajinca?

I'm sure there's guys i the D-league who can play defense better than Hawes and at least not shoot 3's

They'd play for 2 million

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 12:40

But can they pass like Hawes and stretch the floor? Do they have the same blue collar worth ethic? Can they inspire their team and the fans?

Thanks for the laugh

That he is a shorter Manute Bol but without the shot blocking?

Sorry if this was asked and answered already but can teams make a trade and then use the amnesty clause on one of the incoming players?

Yeah, as I understand it as long as the contract was signed prior to the lockout, it can be used. So you could take Arenas off Orlando's hands, and then amnesty him.

sooner reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 14:10

Ok, that may allow for a lot more trade scenarios that weren't feasible before.


If you trade for a crappy ass contract and waive him you still have to pay him.

Why would anyone want to pay (say) Gilbert Arenas if they didn't have to...what are they getting from Orlando to make it worth their time to take on that garbage?

Well, I'd assume anyone willing to take on Arenas would be doing it in a deal for Dwight Howard. No other reason to do it.

sooner reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 14:16

When you use Arenas as an example of course it would be illogical and by you're logic why would a team use the amnesty clause at all because regardless of whether a team trades for the player that the amnesty clause is used on the team will need to pay that salary. But that isn't how it works as far as I know because the silent auction that takes place for the waived player will take off some the money owed off the books of the team that waived that player.

A scenario I was thinking of would be a team giving up a high salary player for a low salary player that they want to keep and a high salary player that they plan to waive.

Again, I still don't see the benefit to the team receiving the higher salary player they're just going to waive. Unless the low salary player is bad, where's the incentive to take on a bad contract (whatever it is) and waive it immediately while you give up talent?

It's money. That's it. Instead of including $3M in a deal, or maybe on top of that, you're taking back a shit contract that you're willing to amnesty in order to get something you really want. So you take, say, Mo Williams along with Eric Gordon and you're essentially paying $17M for the privilege of getting Eric Gordon because you're going to amnesty Williams immediately. Sterling does the deal because you're essentially giving him $17M.

Except that Sterling would have to take money back mostly likely in the deal and then waive that player - which was the scenario traded - and in most scenarios - the team giving up the low salary player takes back the higher waiveable contract, so what's the incentive?

If it's a team with cap room maybe - but in general - i don't see the waiver being used like that too often.

Except new trade rules allow 150% if the team in not a tax team. Not sure it works with Orlando (Orlando is a tax team the Sixers are not), but it definitely works with the Clippers.

All this was my understanding of a good use of the amnesty as well. Try to squeeze a valuable asset (a player, a draft pick...) from another team with multiple terrible contracts (can't amnesty both). Teams that come to my mind include: Orlando, Charlotte, Detroit, Lakers...

Yes, I'm aware, but it's not 'free' - so unless they're giving those guys away to a team with cap room - it's not 'free money' for tserling - he has to take a player back a team didn't want and pay him whether he waives him or not

By taking on Arenas and then cutting him it enables you to clear cap space to add talent around Howard. It is a costly move that only a few owners would be willing to absorb.

sooner reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 15:20

For an example lets say the sixers really want the twolves 1st rnd pick in 2012 that the clippers have the rights to. In order to get that pick the clips want the sixers to take on mo williams salary and to give them iggy. In the past the sixers may not have wanted to be saddled with mo's salary for the next 2 or 3 years because of the cap hit, but with the amnesty clause they would be able to waive him and recoup whatever amount of money the silent auction allows them to recoup. This could be nothing but that's not the point of the trade. The point of it would be to get a piece you really want without having to take on the salary cap hit for years to come of the incoming player you don't really want. The sixers would more than likely lose a lot of money in the deal but you're in a much better place cap wise and have a probable top 5 pick in the next draft.

I realize doing something like this could be very expensive but if its good for the franchise and could be a move that could turn it around, why not take the financial loss in the short term in hopes that it will payoff in the long term.

Just to clarify I used this scenario for arguments sake.

Tray reply to sooner on Nov 28 at 15:31

The Timberwolves' pick has to be worth a bit more than Iguodala/salary dump. Minnesota won just 17 games last year, but went 7-45 in the West. And now we're switching to a schedule where 73%, rather than the traditional 63%, of games will be played in your own conference. Which will tend to improve Cleveland and Washington's records (Cleveland and Washington both went about .300 in the East but anywhere from .133 to .233 in the West), while hurting Minnesota. It ought to be a fight between them and Sacramento for worst record in the league, and the chances of their falling below top 3 in a strong draft are really slim.

That's probably not a good example, but if you take back a long term bad deal and send in an expiring deal, you could literally be giving a team $30M for a pick.

OK, here's an example of a useful way to use the amnesty in a trade.

The Sixers send Nocioni and Lou to Phoenix for Gortat and Josh Childress.

Then they amnesty Childress. This move would save Phoenix over $40M, but it would only impact the Sixers cap situation by the second year remaining on Gortat's contract.

I used to like josh childress

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 14:28

Maybe Miami could trade Bosh and Miller for Gilbert Arenas. They could then cut Arenas, take $21 million off the cap and use the space to sign a guy like DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler or Dalembert.

Ryan F reply to Stan on Nov 28 at 14:37

Or they could just trade the both of them and not pay 21 mil for nothing...

stan reply to Ryan F on Nov 28 at 14:47

No one is going to take Mike Miller. Also there's not many good centers out there that would be available in a trade. Since Miami has no assets.

Why on earth would they do that. Bosh may not be a top 10 player but he still has quite a bit of trade value. For example you can trade him for DeAndre Jordan and Mo Williams in a nanosecond. The clippers might even through in the Timberwolves pick for that trade.

stan reply to Xsago on Nov 28 at 15:08

I don't know. I'm reaching here. Maybe they want Tyson Chandler. This would let them get rid of both Bosh and Miller, which clears enough space to sign him.

In her chat, Fagan just floated Dampier and Brown as possibilities, seems confident that a free agent center is coming in.

She said that right after saying she hasn't talked to anyone about this since new ownership took over. She's still going off the master plan she was supposedly clued into back in like May and none of which actually happened.

But what about MONTA

we have to get MONTA

Tray reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 15:45

Now she questions whether Iguodala is willing to "defend and create like we all know he can."

When did Andre Iguodala stop playing defense or creating?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 15:53

Yeah, I thought she was Ms. "Iguodala Rediscovered His Game Last Season." I guess she thinks he's mercurial and may undiscover his game. There are times, it's true, when he does nothing on the offensive end. He almost always plays great defense.

There are times, it's true, when he does nothing on the offensive end.

No - it's not true - it's just perceived but those not paying attention that he 'does nothing' because they look at points and say he didn't score enough points so he must not have done anything

Tray reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 15:59

No, there are also a great many possessions or even games where he stands somewhere outside the arc most of the time and doesn't create for anyone. It's not like he's a dynamic point-forward every game.

I'm sure you're right, his ability to score, rebound and assist (as a whole) being near the top of the league year in and year out probably wouldn't take a hit if some nights he just stands in the corner scratching his balls

Heh. This statement is so ridiculously simplistic I looked at his game logs, then got distracted by this game:


16 assists, 0 turnovers.

Well, consider the source of the statement

Tray reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 16:16

A good game. I think you'll recall, or rather, see if you looked back at your game recaps that you yourself faulted him in a lot of games for doing way too little. Especially earlier last season.

I definitely have problems when he doesn't attack a blatant mismatch. I don't think his playmaker is every really in question beyond saying things like he's not great every game. LeBron isn't the best player in the world every game. Dwight Howard isn't a dominant force in the paint every game.

"playmaking" and "ever"

fucking brain is mush this afternoon.

Rich reply to Tray on Nov 28 at 16:22

Agree with you on this one. Last year there were times where he drifted and didn't involve himself in the game as much as he should. Then again that's true of a lot of guys, but Andre Iguodala is best when he's energized and active on offense. For other players, it's that way on defense.

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 16:14

I thought Eskin said that Iguodala wouldn't run the plays that Doug Collins called for him? O_o

I really don't get Fagan of late. Honestly, right now i would rather have Hawes than Dampier or Kwame. None of them accomplishes what this team needs and Hawes at least is younger and presumably tradeable, whereas Dampier and Kwame would instantly become overpayed bigs who shouldn't be more than backups.

Tray reply to Xsago on Nov 28 at 15:47

I thought Kwame took the minimum last year. He had an okay year, I guess he averaged 11/8 per 36 minutes, but I don't know that he's going to command a mid-level salary.

I like brians idea of re-upping on thad for 10, doing everything you can too convince lou not too sign. The only question i have with that brian is how do you get an extra 7+ million after howard. Howard coming here as we all know will be on the development of et and jrue. We our a top 5 media market and one of our new owners is none other that the fresh prince which is one of the most powerfull people in hollywood which Howard has expressed he would like too do after and during his career.

Brian i asked about the extra 7 million because if we would have that much extra why not resign lou

You could re-sign Lou, or you could use it to fill a different hole in the roster. And I never said I wanted to sign Thad for $10M, I don't think he's worth that much.

I wouldn't mind signing Kwame, if we rescind our offer to Hawes and we don't sign him for more than 2 years.

johnrosz on Nov 28 at 17:22

Glad to see we're back to arguing over Iguodala's perceived value vs. real value.

The lockout is most definitely over

Man, be nice to have a new player to debate over, but don't see it happening

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Nov 28 at 17:30

Kwame Brown

Rather argue the relative merits of willie green versus lou williams :)

All I want for Christmas is for someone to quickly sign Thad to an offer sheet for $24M/4 years so the Sixers can match it and be done w/ it.

Stan reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 17:47

Where does he rank among the other FAs?


I say some team is going to offer him 7-8 million a year. Possibly New Jersey

I don't think New Jersey is going to offer him that much money, new jersey is going to wave outlaw and try and find the cap room properly to sign Dwight Howard, they aren't going to occupy it with Thaddeus Young. Avery Brooks would hate Thad.


Chandler will stay in Dallas
Gasol will stay in Memphis
Afflalo will stay in Denver,someone will regret over paying david west (let it be the pacers)
Nene might move - but Denver has the leverage and he's a valuable commodity

Not really that much more than the new midlevel :)

You really think he's going to get that low an offer?

With the Cap and tax staying fixed for the next 2 years I think we will see 2 years of crippling deals followed by 3 years of mediocre teams that have dug themselves into a financial hole (sort of resembling the last few Sixers teams.)

Given the Lakers, Celtics and Spurs are all old, a smart GM would position their team to take advantage of the "surprise" market conditions that will begin after the next 2 years.

I would hope the current ownership has that type of patience and time horizon (it basically measn build towards flexibility when Jrue and Turner are finishing their rookie deals and Brand and Iguodala are coming off the books- which is the right thing to do anyways.)

So why is it that we can't amnesty Brand now and sign Nene or Gasol? I don't think Howard is ever coming here.

We could. Does either of those guys make us much better than Brand does, though? Gasol is a pretty bad fit imo. Nene would probably work, though I doubt Denver lets him go.

Stuart reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 22:11

Agree with you on Marc, I think he's a solid center but not right for the Sixers.

What's your opinion of Greg Oden? Stupid risk to take?

Stan reply to Stuart on Nov 28 at 22:38

Definitely. Unless you can get for a 1 year deal at the MLE. But Portland is willing to pay him 8.8 million. No thanks.

Tray reply to Brian on Nov 28 at 23:01

I'd like to hear more about what makes Gasol a bad fit. He's too slow up and down the floor? He is, at least, unlike Nene, a defensive presence of sorts.

Gasol is a stiff. Incredibly slow, his hard work disguises lack of talent in the box score, but not when one actually watches him play (he looks pathetic at all times). Nene will be a huge overpayment by whoever gets stuck with him for 4-5 years. He's kind of a whiner. Much better off with Brand for 2 years only.

Slow up and down the floor and really immobile. He's definitely a skilled big man, and he can score on the inside, but to me he's limited by his size/athleticism. They need a finisher in the worst way.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 29 at 1:23

Am I the only one baffled by Stoned81 calling Gasol a stiff but at the same time he turns around and vehemently defends Hawes?

Gasol is definitely NOT a stiff, but I think someone ends up overpaying for his services. He's out of Sixers price range anyway, but I'd sure love to have him if it were a more realistic option.

Stoned81 loves his skilled big men, you'd think he'd be all about Marc Gasol

Well I never claimed Hawes was a bastion of athleticism or supreme talent. I just like the dude's physical game and attitude. Hawes is also much, much cheaper than Gasol will be.

And Hawes at least looks more athletic than Gasol. I remember being utterly shocked at how slow and pathetic-looking Gasol was the first time I saw him run the floor (I had previously been told how great he was, and thus when I saw him for the first time I was flabbergasted).

Utah has made Jefersson and Milsap available again. How about Nocioni+Speights+Brackins for Jefersson. The Jazz get cap relief and young talent and get rid of the overpayed big Al and Jefersson while not the perfect solution (how he fits is very questionable) is certainly an improvement over Hawes. And it's not like he is going to cost the team anything outside of extra few bucks. His contract ends same as Brand.

Jefferson is garbage.

So are nocioni speights and brackins?

Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 29 at 20:50

But Jefferson is larger piece of garbage that will take a longer time to get rid of.

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