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The Battle At SG

Turner's play really is the biggest question going into the year. I like Meeks and he will contribute regardless of what Turner does, but ET's ceiling is so much higher if he starts making jumpers. I have no idea if he will though.

My prediction? Meeks, but maybe because Collins likes his initial fit between Jrue and Iguodala. I'm more concerned with who is finishing games. Turner playing a Harden-type role would be fine with me this year.

By the way, I thought this would be as good a time to announce that I'll be a Thunder fan for the next couple years - or at least, a Thunder observer, it remains to be seen whether I'll actually get to like the team much. I'm clerking for a 10th Circuit judge in Oklahoma City next year, plan to get season tickets to help fill my boring Oklahoman evenings, and figured now would be a convenient time to hop on the OKC bandwagon. My support of the Sixers was always very conditional anyway; I started watching them the year we went to the Finals, and quickly lost interest after we traded him and it became clear that management had no interest at all in tanking the season and landing a star in the draft. I'm still interested in the team's future, in case it somehow actually becomes any good, but I'm not a fan and haven't been for some time. So if I don't seem too supportive this year, more excited about the Clippers/Grizzlies/Thunder's future than ours, or positively amused when Vucevic inevitably flops, it's because I'm not, because I am, and because I will be. I'm aware that to some people this shocking lack of loyalty to a corporate entity and its employees is a sign of moral frailty, but I find that silly and absurd.

Tray, I really don't care who you are a fan of. I do hope you will still watch the Sixers though and contribute to the conversation. Also, they did tank! We have a number 2 pick in his second year! Just kidding, getting that pick was luck. But there are no superstar guarantees even if you do tank.

Congrats.

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MikeW reply to Tray on Nov 30 at 10:58
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Congrats, I'll be (hopefully) graduating from Law School this year as well, but I'm sticking in the Philly area. One thing I've noticed with "fanhood" - If you can so easily abandon your favorite team, you will probably never be a "true fan" of any team. You more just love/follow the sport.

I believe the job is Turners to lose again this season. An average Evan Turner is still an all around better player than Meeks. Meeks just brings a different dimention on the court. I also believe that if Turner can play up to his potential it makes Iguodala more expendable.

The Sixers need what Meeks brings. While Jrue and Iguodala can do a lot of what Turner does well.

Meeks being on the floor helps Jrue, Iguodala and Turner succeed. I would prefer to trade Lou and slot Turner into a 25+ mi a game bench player. Give Jrue and Iguodala 35 minutes a game, and that would leave more than enough minutes for Meeks and Turner.

i do believe on opening night our starting SG will be Jodie Meeks. but a few weeks later everything can change...

First of all whether Iguodala stays or not has huge impact on this issue. I'm not sure it's a given that Iguodala stays in Philly this season.

Anyway if the roster remains the same, i think at the start of the season Meeks will most likely be the starter, but that doesn't mean he will keep it until the playoffs. Essentially i think it's irrelevant if he is the starter or not, Collins will still most likely minimze the time J/T/I are together on the court and will put Meeks or Lou between 2 of them for most of the game (at least 40min imo).

I wish it we were able to insert Lou in the starting lineup under the condition that Jrue or Dre always initiats the offense. Then our bench would be virtually unstoppable w ET at point Meeks at the 2 and Thad at sf/pf.

However I expect to see the same old starting lineup trotted out as we saw most times last year.

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Da Jruth on Nov 30 at 7:53
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Meeks.

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deepsixersuede on Nov 30 at 8:13
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Unless there is a major roster change I believe it is definitely Meeks, for all the right reasons. We don't have a backup s.f., Meeks and Lou just doesn't work together, in my opinion, off the bench, and Collins seems to love Turner's versatility off the bench.

Unless they sign a s.f. [Dunleavy type?] to a cheap deal or Thad can play there some if one of our p.f.'s [Brackins or Speights?] steps up than Turner may never get the oppurtunity to be a full time s.g. .

If the roster remains as is, Meeks with Turner off the bench, subbing for either Jrue, AI9 or Meeks. Turner playing 28 plus minutes a night and being on the court at crunch time.

For the love of God, put Meeks on the bench where he belongs, as a 3-point specialist only. He's not even all that good at that (not even in the top 15 in 3-point shooting last year). He can't dribble, can't pass, has no moves, and can't defend. Turner should have the starting job regardless of training camp.

I hate to say it, but I think we'll see Meeks starting games again this year for the quick 3pt threat- but similarly to Hawes last year, we'll see Turner replace him and take more of the minutes off the bench, especially if he isn't shooting well that night.

Another question for the crowd- does anyone think we have a legitimate package right now that could compete in the Dwight Howard sweepstakes? The Nets reportedly are putting together a big offer which could start the ball rolling. Thoughts?

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ryano reply to ryano on Nov 30 at 9:23
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"he" being Meeks.

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raro reply to ryano on Nov 30 at 10:18
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I always thought that we could have matched NJ's trade of D Harris + D Favors + draft pick(s) for Deron Williams. And since Deron Williams and Dwight Howard are very close in value added IMO, I think a similar offer from the Sixers for Howard could be made. Something along the lines of Turner (hopefully his trade value improves over the course of the season) or Thad + ??? + picks.

The trouble with Orlando is that they are going to want to remove some of their terrible contracts as well...

"And since Deron Williams and Dwight Howard are very close in value added"

Yeah, I don't think they're very close at all.

@ZachLowe_SI: From league: Teams CANNOT use amnesty on a player they acquire via trade, even if player's contract dates to prior CBA,. Guys traded last season are fine for amnesty.For instance: Orlando can amnesty Gil. But NJ cannot trade for and then amnesty Hedo.

also, i want meeks to start unless turner comes into camp with his shot looking great and his confidence is sky high

Hmmn, first I've heard of that.

Would think it's the first time it's become public. Might be true, might not be, official document still in production

Meeks' arms are too short to box with '2' guards.

I'd prefer that Turner be ready to start from the start of the season, but with where he ended up last season combined with a short pre-season and a coach more worried about his career won loss record than player development, I figure Meeks will start the season at the 2 until Turner shows he should be the starter.

If Turner can't show he should be the starter in his second season over Jodie Meeks, then I start to get concerned.

Lots of rumors are going to come out about a whole bunch of stuff but right now this is my favorite, just for the wording

"Nets prepared to offer Brook Lopez, 2 1st round picks for Magic's Dwight Howard"

"Otis Smith prepared to burst out laughing and hang up the phone"

Monta Ellis. Iggy trade puts Monta on SG in the starting lineup alongside Jrue and Truner.

And brian finally becomes a nets fan

'Value Added' may have been the wrong term since it implies some sort of statistical comparison, but both players are viewed as top 10 superstars by the league correct? Therefore, the trade package required for a deal would be similar?

Also, if NJ's offer for D Howard consists of B Lopez + absorbing Hedo's contract + picks, how can the Sixers not match that? Because supposedly B Lopez is some young stud of a center who is going to be a perennial all star?

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raro reply to raro on Nov 30 at 10:35
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Sorry, meant this as a reply to Brian's comment above.

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Stan reply to raro on Nov 30 at 10:45
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I wonder what the Sixers could give up. Thad and ET plus 2-1st round draft picks? We can't give up Jrue. There's no point of making this deal if we have to give up Iggy as well. A trade wouldn't work. There are more that other team can offer.

If they amnesty Brand and the deal is something like Iguodala, Lou, Nocioni and two #1 picks for howard and gilbert, Orlando would save something like $44M over the next three years.

You're not getting Dwight Howard without giving up Jrue Holiday

When did Brook Lopez learn to rebound.

The sixers problem wouldn't be matching it I don't think, but if Dwight isn't willing to sign long term here it's not an offer.

Even absorbing Hedo's contract that trade sucks, because the moment the Nets get Howard, that's enough to make those draft picks in the low teens at best I would think.

So a 'lottery' pick 7 footer who can't yet rebound, and two non lottery picks...and some cash savings.

Hell, the Lakers will come around and you can get bynum

Honestly, if Howard is truly available right now, I'd do whatever I can to get him if I was the Sixers, even w/out the extension. The Sixers have a new owner, a coach who can really sell Dwight on the team and the "owning" team has a huge advantage in negotiating in the new CBA. I'd take the risk, and if you lose him then you restart.

I don't think the Magic would want Iguodala for Howard, if you're trading howard, you're looking for youth and assets, so Holiday is out the door...you'd have to include money to make the deal work - brand I guess, and a pick or two.

I don't trade for howard unless you can keep him. There are other ways to get cap space without giving up additional assets

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Stan reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 10:59
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I wouldn't if it involved taking back Gilbert's salary. A lineup of Howard-Thad- Turner- Gilbert- Jrue, would never come close to winning the EFC title. Howard would walk and we would stuck with Gilbert's contract for the next 3 years. Ownership would also have to pay Brand's contract on top of that as well.

You don't pay gilbert - you waive him don't you?

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raro reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 11:04
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Yeah, I was being sarcastic about B Lopez. And sure, the Lakers can probably put together the best package for Orlando. Bynum is probably the second best C in the league when healthy.

It's just that when I read about crappy offers like the one from NJ, I can't help but wonder if old man Thorn is even trying to get involved in the bidding...

I think if the sixers felt they could make a good offer AND Dwight would agree to stay, they'd do it, but that's not a good offer that the Nets are offering, it's a garbage offer, it's the low ball kind of offer they used to get deron williams hoping to get in the door before anyone knows he's available, but everyone knows Dwight is in play

I don't think the Sixers are even remotely in the Dwight Howard sweepstakes.

This team, as constituted, has to focus on 2-3 years from now (one Brand/Iguodala are off the books.) Jriue, Turner, Thad, Meeks and Vucevic will all be more ready to compete in 2-3 years. They won't win much without the addition of a superstar, but they will be much better prepared to be key complementary pieces on a contender. Whereas they are currently not ready.

Forget about this years superstars and put yourself in a position to make a run at the next wave.

The sheer athleticism portion of Dwight Howard's career is peaking (8 days short of age 26). Coming soon: the growing (or not) part. Blocks & assists were down last season, turnovers were up.

He will be in his prime for the next 5+ years assuming no freak injury.

He had a shit team around him last year.

I still firmly believe if he ever had a legit point guard, or even a legit playmaker on the floor with him, his offense would be much, much better. Jameer is a terrible fit for him.

An interesting offer would be Minnesota giving up Kevin Love, Wes Johnson, and Michael Beasley for Howard

Did Wes Johnson have a great rookie year and I missed it?

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stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 11:30
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No but if Otis wants to trade for young talent, Kevin Love is a lot better than Brooke Lopez

I'm not debating it

But Andrew Bynum is a lot better than Kevin Love and the additional assets you thought would make a wolves deal good are at best 'middling'.

Again, it's also about where Dwight is willing to sign long term. Minnesota is one of the few league destinations less desirable than the sixers

Spotty, very spotty. Fans in north midwest say, "Look! See Spot run. See Spot shoot. Oh, darn! See Spot pulled." I look for more bite from Spot this year.

Is there any chance we re-sign Sammy D? I realize this is a SG discussion, but Sammy would seem to be a much better fit than Kwame Brown or Dampier.

Sam Amick says maybe if the sixers waive Nocioni, but at the same time, Dalembert is a 'hot name' in the 'mid level' type free agency. Nene and DJ are the big names but teams looking for a good defensive center, they're looking at Sam. Lots of teams in play.

More importantly, wasn't sam traded because he was a locker room cancer, bad influence, yada yada yada nonsense? Did he suddenly become a different person?

I honestly think Thorn and Collins hated that trade, but I seriously doubt Sam comes back to Philly.

I hated that trade, and if hawes gets a contract extension Ill continue to ahte that trade as long as that useless doughy fool is on the roster (making it worse is his redneck political leanings) of my favorite NBA team, but I agree that he wouldn't come back. I think Miami is a good fit for him not just because they need a defensive center but also because of Sam's background/charity doings.

Miami definitively gives Sam easy access to visit Caribbean nations as part of his charity works. Miami is the hub for flights to that region.

Just looked up Haitian diaspora:

500,000 in greater NYC area
250,000 in S. Florida
All of the other areas are

As for the Sixers- my only big issue with Sam as starting center was his salary. He would be a good fit next to a D.West/Bosh/Dirk face up type PF.

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deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 12:03
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If New Orleans, or the league, decides to move C.Paul for assets and build over should the sixers inquire about Okafor? Assuming our new management wants to compete now and we can give up a pick and some young pieces amongest [Meeks, Young, Brackins] and Nucioni's expiring.

Without looking at how long okafors contract is (does it expire when iguodala or brands does) I don't see why not, it's an improvement.

Same year as Iguodala's. Pretty hefty price. Would move their cap window out a year, and then you're going to have to deal with Jrue's first real contract and RFA for Turner. I'd rather have the cap space coincide with Jrue's RFA year so you can use it, then go over the cap to re-sign Jrue instead of already having that money committed.

I guess, but at the same time, if you're going to keep Iguodala and Brand, you should try and build the best roster you can while they're here shouldn't you?

I can get behind either plan: completely rebuild it around Jrue (and hopefully turner) or make incremental improvements without jeopardizing the cap space you're going to have in a couple of years. I just don't want to see the middle ground where they don't really have a plan and/or they make stupid decisions to improve the team in the short term, but handcuff them in the long term with long, bad contracts. Okafor would fall under the incremental improvement w/out sacrificing down the road.

As a guy who watches every game, that's probably what I'd most like to see them do, but I could get behind the rebuild if they completely committed to it.

I can get behind anything I believe is going to make them legitimate conference finals contenders. The past close to decade however has been the 'stay mediocre' plan - a first round playoff loss with no visible movement towards being better than that seemed acceptable.

I want to see the new CBA in full before really thinking about the best direction but the fact that the age limit isn't going up means that this might be a good draft to have a higher pick in just because of folks who were top lottery picks last year but didn't come out

It is probably a matter of degree.

I'm for trying to win with Iguodala and Brand- as long as that does not mean taking on contracts beyond 2 years.

Top priority has to be 2-3 years from now. That does not mean you have to tank these next two years, just don't sacrifice the future.

Like I've said before, the cap/tax staying high these next 2 years will tempt a lot of GM's to make some poor long term, decisions. Particularly GM's who need to win now to save their jobs.

That should put smarter teams in good shape to take advantage when the cap number drops in 2 years.

Then again, maybe a new TV deal will mean the cap goes up even with a lower BRI. Anyone hear speculation about what will happen to the cap once the new CBA really kicks in?

Isn't the belief that the key guy in this ownership group was the guy who was pushed out in Sacramento (I think his name is Joshua Harris). I mean if he's the guy making the basketball decisions his job secuirty should be pretty high no?:)

To be honest i am fully aware that getting Howard is extremely unlikely. And while i would trade anyone outside of Holiday to get him even without the extension i'm no going to bash the ownership for not doing it (doubt if it's even possible).

I think we should focus on Love who is unlikely to stay in Minnesota and might be able to force a trade even though Minny would match any kind of offer and can keep him long term. Love can be a great building block next to Jrue, Turner and even Iguodala. And if you have Love you can than get yourselves a defensive minded center who is not a great rebounder and still be extremely competitive. And those guys are easier to find for a reasonable price (think Perkins before last season).

And since yo uwant to keep Jrue, Evan Turner and Iguodala what do the sixers have that's inviting to the T'wolves to give up Kevin Love who has high trade value (deserved or not isn't the question)

You couldn't get howard without giving up Holiday and I doubt you could get Love without giving up one of jrue, evan turner, and Iguodala.

The sixers have very few trade assets, and in your quest for Kevin Love you say you wouldn't give up the sixers 2 best trade assets.

This is the problem, you have to be realistic and understand you can't rape teams for their best players, not even teams run by david kahn

I'd give up Iguodala to get Kevin Love. Not sure how Iguodala would fit into Minny's plans, if they have plans, but I'd like to see Love on the Sixers and he'd be the savior for a lot of Sixers fans for an obvious reason no one wants to talk about.

Yeah but xsago wouldn't - which was my point - he wasn't willing to give anything up - I'd give up Iguodala to get Love, hell if they give us the cap room too i might not need much else, but at that point brand has to go.

Oh were you referring to the melanin content of kevin love - is that the thing no one in philadlephia wants to talk about (see utley, chase vs howard, ryan for instance) :)

I don't know that Iguodala fits in Minnesota, and honestly, I think Minneosta will be quiet until they see what rubio cna do

Yeah, we can just call it the Hawes over Dalembert segment of the fan base.

I like to call it the racist moron fan base

They even have a leader

Howard Eskin

I would absoulutely trade Iguodala or Turner for Love. My post was about him being a great fit next to our remaining core players (whomever they may be). I am fully aware what is a good realistic trade offer.

Anyway, the Wolves were interested in Iguodala in the past, wonder if that has changed...

I wonder if Andrew Bogut is available.

I'm not sure if Bogut is ever going to recover from that elbow injury.

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deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 12:16
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Does Thad, via sign-n-trade, get us anything. Gallanari and P. Milsap come to mind for me.

A package of Iguodala and Speights might get you Love and another asset, clearing time for Turner while jet-starting running game and adding a nice dimension to halfcourt offense. Gotta give to get.

But what do the Wolves want with Iguodala. If you believe Kahn has a plan (and he claims he does) Iguodala's career arc seems a bit ahead of that plan doesn't it?

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deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 12:22
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If I was Kahn I would move Pekovic so Love can play some 5 next to D. Williams, maybe 15 minutes a game. How to get them on the floor together along with Rubio's development should be top priorities.

But there's no rush to do such a thing, and there's no reason the coach can't just play Love at the five next to williams if williams warrants it. It's not like these are super stars you can't bench - it's the freaking t'wolves

Good question. Iguodala at this point would fit better on a contender. I assume Minny wants wins and fans in building. Kahn's made enough incongruent moves to at least entertain the possibility of it happening. As for his master plan, I'm not aware. Doesn't he have 6 PGs?

He has a lot of short guys who play point but they're not all points, in the 'draft the best player available' thing he might have missed a few times, but it was always about rubio...and I agree, Iguodalas best fit is on a contender, but contenders usually have the least 'assets' to give away at the same time because they want to stay contenders

Oh, and one more thing about Kevin Love, he's firmly above Blake Griffin on my list, and really high up there in general. You've got the legit superstars (Howard, CP3, Deron Williams) and then he's at the top of the next list, probably it goes Love/Curry and then Griffin. Then you start looking at guys who might be fits. Honestly, I'd probably prefer to keep Jrue and get Love over losing Jrue to get CP3.

Here's a comp for you.

And here's another one for you

http://bkref.com/tiny/qjmHd

Rookie year vs Rookie year

Eh, that's not really Griffin's rookie season.

Yes, it is, in terms of it's the first time he played against NBA competition. I'm sure he puts up the same numbers (or close) in his real rookie year if he didn't suffer a massive injury. Personally I think it's more impressive what he did coming off a whole season off due to injry and says something about his dedication and ability. I think he'll get better

What makes you put Love above Griffin, I mean Griffin had a bust out rookie year and no reason to believe he won't get better and improve upon it is there?

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deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 12:30
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Watching them in college it seemed to me Love has the ability to make players better around him, just my opinion. I agree with Brian on this because both have had injury issues, Love in high school I believe, and both need a defensive center next to them.

Even on the clippers and wolves Love and Griffin are playing with more talented players than they played with in college...

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deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 12:34
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It might be Loves' old school game to me, the boxing out, outlet passing etc. .

Love is probably the best rebounder I've seen since Rodman, and for a long time before that. Also, he's much more efficient than Griffin, and is a legitimate threat out to the three. There's a lot more you can do with an offensive threat like that. Neither guy is very good on defense. If all you care about is highlights, then you go with Griffin, if you want to win games, I take love w/out blinking. I also think Griffin is going to have a short career.

I too have Love ahead of Griffin. Love is on the top of my list of next generation potential superstar bigmen. He's skilled and he cares truly about winning and gives effort in order to do so. Griffin on the other hand is an injury waiting to happen. More flash than substance. He will need to prove his durability and become anything on defense before he can get my vote.

He's skilled and he cares truly about winning and gives effort in order to do so.

blake griffin on the other hand doesn't care about winning or give effort in order to do so. Comments like that reduce credibility implying there are athletes who don't care about winning

Where on earth did i say that Griffin doesn't care?? Honestly i have no idea how you reach some of your conclusions regarding someone else's post.

My issues is and will be his durability. His style of play makes him very injury prone and he has an injury history already. There is no guarantee that he will be able to be a great player after multiple injuries. Most players can't do it. Of course, Stoudemire kept being a similar player despite his injury issues, but that doesn't mean the same will happen to Griffin.

I see Love as a smart guy who give max effort. He also has a knack for finding the ball.

Griffin also gives max effort and is a top 10 NBA athlete.

Sad to say, but in most cases the athlete wins over the smart guy in the NBA. Unless the lessor athlete has a pure jumper (Bird and Dirk.) So IMO the only way Love ends up a more winning/impact player than Griffin is if Love develops a pure jumper or Griffin loses his athleticism through injury.

The athlete only wins if he works on his weaknesses, athleticism can only carry you so far without the work behind it (see hughes, larry)

I'm not sure what you mean by a pure shooter, but Love shot 41.7% from three on almost 3 attempts/game, and shot 85% from the line on 6.8 attempts.

Yeah - but as a PF i'm more interested in how he does 10 feet and in - and 3-9 feet he wasn't good last year

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kevin%20Love

Love clearly isn't that type of PF, and you have to know that going in. Two different styles, and all things being equal, I'd prefer the guy who scores on the inside, but all things aren't equal w/ these two guys. Love is much more efficient.

And we'll see what griffin does his second year, I believe he has more potential than Love to be the kind of power forward who can win in the nba, i don't really care if my PF can make 3's as much as he can post up and get big men on the other team in foul trouble

Love gets to the line plenty, and he actually hits his free throws.

Love is not a pure shooter yet, becasue his jumper is nort really a weapon.

pure shooters score efficiently at high volume despite the defense being focused on taking away their jumper. I don't think that really describes Love. He is an efficient shooter, but that is not the same thing IMO.

But he is still developing his game, so I guess we will see.

Love, better core/internal make-up, overall poise: i.e., career FT% .823; Griffin, .642 (.618 at Okie State). Little things add up, like actions under microscope or duress of closing minutes. Have only seen Griffin a few times: snapshot - plays with impressive daring and talent but is raw, lacks good judgement more often than you'd like: i.e., last year's Sixers game in LA when he fouled out in 36 min., shot 3-12 from field & 8-15 from line.

Where on earth did i say that Griffin doesn't care?? Honestly i have no idea how you reach some of your conclusions regarding someone else's post.

It was more about your foolish comment how 'love cares about winning' the statement in general about any player, I find is asinine, guys don't get to the NBA by not caring about winning. It weakens any argument in my opinion when yo uhave to resort to such platitude nonsense

You're comparing griffin and love and make a statement about love would imply you thik he has that while griffin doesn't. You were listing reasons you preferred love over griffin when you made the comment. I'm sorry if you think you didn't mean it that way but that's how it comes out - it's a weak platitude full of BS and idiocy anyway

First of all there are a ton of NBA players who don't even care about basketball let alone winning. Luckily most have very short careers and none of them succeeds.
Second, there are different levels of care. Saying that everybody cares about winning in the NBA equally asinine to me. There are guys who would play with a broken hand in order to win (it's usually foolish, but that's how much they care) and there are guys who care about winning but are unable to completely devote their life in order to do so.

Where Griffin stands here i don't know yet, 1 year is not enough for proper effort evaluation. not to mention that some guys grow up and realize what's important and start caring more as they keep playing in the NBA.

First of all there are a ton of NBA players who don't even care about basketball let alone winning.

There's a difference between working on your game and caring about winning. It's a platitude that I'm so tired of people trotting out.

You don't get drafted into the nba by not caring about winning...by not competing. Does a guy give full effort every night, probably night, do you give 100% every minute you are at work - probably not or you wouldn't post here...so stop with the 'he doesn't care about winning' bull shit, you can't know that from his facial expression It's a tired antiquated riduclous thing that people who think they know more than they actually do trot out

Where Griffin stands here i don't know yet, 1 year is not enough for proper effort evaluation. not to mention that some guys grow up and realize what's important and start caring more as they keep playing in the NBA.

But one year is enough to decide you'll take the 3 year player over the 1 year player for the long term?

You're ability to judge these guys without ever having an actual conversation with them is fascinating. I never knew you fell into that category of foolish fan until today

Everything you said in the above two comments make me think about you exactly the same way you think about me. It's even funny actually.

There is no point explaining myself and wasting time on a useless discussion though. Let's keep things basketball related.

Then don't bring up useless platitudes - which you ascribed to basketball. See how you can't defend your platitude, you just turn it around

"Cares about winning" - Prove it - show me actual evidence of these tons of players in the nba who don't care about winning...you can't. So you won't even try you'll just say 'let's stick to basketball'

Fine - then leave the BS platitudes out of it if you can't defend them with FACTS

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jsmoove reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 17:24
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The lockout served one good purpose - it saved us all from this tireless drivel of gosixers.

*sigh*

I'm not saying I prefer one over the other in the love griffin debate I just don't think one season is enough to define a career be it Griffin's limited upside or those ready to write Evan Turner off after one season. Personally to me the second season is more important than the first

The third season is the one that matters the most IMO. If you can establish yourself by year 3 in the league as a legit player, star, superstar, you will have a great career. If not it's gonna be very hard for you because most likely you won't even get the chance.

Yeah but the second year is where you build upon the first one, first year you were new and people didn't have as much tape on you - can you maintain a positive progression. The third year builds on the second but the biggest 'change' to me is the rookie year versus the second year because the expectations can change.

I didn't give up on speights after his first year like a lot of people, I did after his second, he showed no improvement, nothing got better.

I'd need to check the data, but IMO, the 1st year is very important in judging a player who entered the league at 22 and was not on the bench behind a star.

If Et entered the league at 20 or was stuck behind Ray Allen and PP, then I would think the second year would be telling. But IMO we have seen enough minutes of a 22 year old Turner to know that he has to fundamentally remake his game in order to be a quality starter.

The only hope I am holding out is that ET seems to have the drive to successfully remake his game if he has enough talent (some guys can never learn to shoot.)

And thus in his second year you'll see if Evan Turner can change his game, remake his shot, and do what it takes.

So, in Evan Turners case his second year is more important than his first...because of how badly his first went he needs to show a desire to change and remake his game to work.

The problem with Turner is that we don't even know what he was capable of last year. Key to becoming a star is a coaching staff and front office giving you a chance to become one. That means minutes, touches, whatever you need to showcase your game. Turner got almost none of it in his first season simply because he was being coached the way a winning team is coached and even when he got a chance he wasn't allowed to showcase his abilities. When you coach to win you cannot afford to let a young guy live through his mistakes and learn from them and let him play his game his way. Most stars get the do what you can early in their careers though because they are on bad teams to begin with. Turner got the opposite so it's gonna take a trade or Turner truly overcoming his weaknesses to become a great player. Of course it may never happen, noone knows for sure.

Turner got his chance his first year, I'm pro turner, but Evan Turner is the reason he didn't get minutes last year. If he blames anyone else but himself and his ability, that's a problem

I don't agree with you. ET was beat out by Iguodala, Jrue(age 20), Meeks and Lou. He played 1800 minutes. Say Roy as a rookie had been on last year Sixers- would he have struggled like ET last year?

He is the same age as Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, Russell Wesbrook and Stephen Curry. Sure those guys have more NBA experience, but if ET was good enough to be an impact player then he would have shown us something. He would have played at a top level for some sustained periods of time.

Ubless ET changes his game (use the jumper as a weapon and learn to score against athletic wings) he won't be good enough to be a quality NBA starter. I'm hoping his game grows, but that is a lot to expect from a guy who is 23.

We'll find out this season

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Nov 30 at 13:41
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Does our coach even see him as a s.g. ? It seems to me he has him pegged as a point forward type ala Grant Hill.

Let's hope not. No comparison but for height, length. Hill, tighter physique, better hops, better J, stronger mind, strode with advantages of a pro's legacy.

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Cin reply to tk76 on Nov 30 at 14:45
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I don't think it's fair to say he was beat out by Holiday, Williams, or Iguodala, who each already had established roles going into the season. Meeks starting wasn't a knock on Turner either. If you recall, Jason Kapono actually started the first couple of games of the season, followed by Andres Nocioni for another brief span. Everyone knows that a shooter was needed between Holiday and Iguodala, and Meeks won that battle.

Turner's ability isn't the reason why he didn't play a more prominent role last season. If you look at the games that Iguodala was out with injury and Turner started with Nocioni, although only a total of five games, he fared pretty well statistically.

12.8 PTS on 10.2 FGA/4.0 FTA (45.0 FG%/85.0 FT%)
8.2 REB
2.8 AST/2.2 TO

Add in how capable a defender he is and I definitely see the start of an impact player, but not one that will reach his potential either on the bench or starting with Iguodala.

Xsago makes a valid point in D.C. not letting Evan Turner learn through his mistakes, a leniency that's afforded to many high draft picks. On the same note, I think the season spent playing out of position/role, which has unfortunately pegged him as a bust, will end up being invaluable for his development. For reference, look at Holiday's season spent off the ball at UCLA. He dropped out of the lottery from being a potential Top 10 selection, but now he can play either guard spot effectively and is seen as the key building block of the franchise.

Evan Turner was the #2 pick in the draft which comes with certain expectations. I believe it is safe to say he didn't live up to those expectations.

He should have played over Jodie Meeks if he met those expectations, he didn't. He could have played over Lou Williams if he met those expectations, he didn't.

I'm pro turner, but he was bad last year

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Cin reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 15:14
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Saying he should have started over Meeks and Williams is like comparing apples to oranges because Turner is a wing and not a guard. He can only be fairly compared to Iguodala, and starting two non-shooting wings is just bad basketball, so you start the better of the two and last year it was definitely Iguodala.

In terms of contribution and productivity it was a disappointing season for Turner, but not in terms of ability and potential. If he had been drafted by another team then he would be seen as that "18/7/7" guy that D.C. talked about.

It's easy to say that, but Turner had plenty of time on the floor last season and never even approached that type of production. Maybe if he went to a team that allowed him a 28%+ usage rate he could approach those numbers, but that's never going to be the case here.

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Cin reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 15:25
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I didn't mean to infer that he would have reached those numbers as I don' think he would even in an ideal situation. I meant that he would be perceived by the fan base to be the type to reach such lofty averages (as D.C. does) rather than being seen as a bust.

That type of usage rate is exactly what other high profile rookies got. And yes with very few exception all those teams very really really bad during their rookie years.

Here's a fun list of rookies with 22%+ USG rate:

http://tinyurl.com/bv7euvk

Turner got only 17%.

Man, I forgot how bad Durant was in his rookie season.

And here is another comparison of rookies with less than 18% USG rate. Turner was at 17%.

http://tinyurl.com/cjf6tgf

The only high profile rookies on that list are Iguodala and Joe johnson. Interesting isn't it? Iguodala had Iverson and johnson had a ton of Phoenix teammates in front of him.

And when did they truly show their potential? After a trade happened.

This doesn't mean Turner will follow the same path of course.

I disagree with your premise but are you saying that Evan Turner and Andre Iguodala couldn't both start on the same basketball team?

And that still doesn't explain why turner wouldn't get in the game more when the sixers were going small or when he was needed for defense at the end of a game.

I see no supportable argument that says Evan Turner wasn't extremely disappointing last year, but it was last year, it's up to him to prove it was a blip and if his pattern holds, he will

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Cin reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 15:44
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I'm of the mentality that they drafted Turner as an eventual replacement for Iguodala. Like you said, given Turner's history he would need a couple years to acclimate, which conveniently shaves off a couple years from Iguodala's contract to make him easier to trade.

But to answer your question no I don't think that starting them both together is possible if you also want to run an effective offense. I also don't think that Turner has mentality that would make him effective if used in a situational capacity. I think that the lack of a steady role made him prone to frustration and mental lapses. He just isn't a role playing type.

I'm of the impression that Iguodala has 'one more contract' in him and that they hoped turner and iguodala would work together...i never get the impression he was supposed to be a replacement

Yeah, that pretty well sums it up for me, too.

I always thought that you need to have players with unique skill sets in order to win. That means there in no right or wrong way to do it. The guys that separate each other from the group in any way are the ones that usually win.

This is why i really like Love. There has never been a player with his combination of skills - Elite rebounding, elite 3p shooting, good passing.

Well, Loves skills aren't unique, other players have had them before, he's not the only one who has them nor will ever have them, but buying your premise you still need complimentary pieces that work together, you can't just put out of the ordinary skill sets together and hope it works.

Love is a nice piece, jrue holiday would be an nice piece with him.

AIn't enough to win a title - or even win a 2nd round playoff series

Umm, it's a pretty rare combo. No one besides Love has ever averaged 12 boards/game and shot 32% from three (on more than 30 3P attempts) besides love. He averaged 15 boards and shot 41.7%.

Rare and unique don't mean the same thing though :)

It's unique to the game today. Really, rebounding at this level with the 3pt shooting is unique to the game ever.

Lebron James is unique to the game today
Dwight Howard is unique to the game 'today'

It's not something we haven't seen before and it doesn't mean we won't again

it also doesn't mean that Love will ever win a playoff game or continue to perform at such a high level on a team where people actualy expect you to do well

But Blake Griffin will? I mean, you aren't making any arguments against Love that don't also apply to Griffin.

Did I say blake griffin would - I'm not sure I did. What I said was that Griffin has had only one year and we'll see how he does after his first year.

You compared Griffin year one to love year three - which to me isn't a fair comparison in terms of what the future holds or that one is clearly superior to the other yet.

You seem to think Love was head and shoulders above griffin already, I don't believe that yet, and you yourself are indicating that while they play the same position they are two entirely different players.

Ugh. Jesus. Right now, picking between the two, I take Love. If Griffin makes a dramatic improvement this season, maybe I change that.

Fine, but since the sixers aren't going to get either of them it's more interesting to me to discuss their futures in general than their currents

Is Griffin as relentless on glass as Love? Gotta love Love's vise-grip rebounding (at both ends) and trained seal reflex to look upcourt for outlet. Showtime acrobatics, Griffin hands down. Basketball plays, a nod to Love. And Love's only about 6 months older: 23.3 to 22.9.

Like I said, we'll see going forward. Griffin actually plays with a guy who can rebound slightly better than anyone Love plays with (a couple someones i believe even)

Griffin is in pretty lofty company:

Players who averaged for even 1 season 22/12 age 25 or younger are essentially all HOF's (with the extremely rare exception.) Rookies who did it are all arguably top 50 all timers.

Every player who has averaged 20/15 in any season in their career since 1970 is in the hall of fame (except Truck Robinson)

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timx reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 14:05
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You seriously just argue to argue! Do you ever take the time to read some of the ridiculously petty arguments you make. Like an old lady. Relax man!

1. I'm relaxed - what makes you think I am - you can't tell how relaxed I am or aren't any more than you can tell if a player 'wants to win'.

2. Since you have nothing to add to the topic at hand but your useless criticisms of me personally, what does that say about you?

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timx reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 15:02
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You the man, great argument.

Missing the point, unsurprisingly...bye bye

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 15:53
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I'm going to reply to see how far your pettiness can go

Larry Bird was top 6 DReb/G in the NBA for 9 seasons (top 4 for 4 seasons.) That is more impressive when you consider he played on the same team as Parrish and McHale and was often playing SF.

For example, in 84/5:

Rebounds:
Parrish: 10.6
Bird: 10.5 (8.5 dreb #4 in the NBA)
McHale: 9.0

I'll admit Bird was better than Kevin Love. You got me.

Was responding to your "unique" comment. Just saying Love is not the only dominant re bounder, 3 pt shooter to come along. But I guess to be in that company is just as good.

Troy Murphy 2208/9:

11.8 reb/g (#2 in the NBA), had the best dreb% in the league (32%)

45% 3pt% (#3 in the NBA) attempting 5+ 3's a game.

I'd consider that a comparable season to what Love just did. So I don't agree that Love is a umnique player.

Larry Bird?

Bird was never the kind of rebounder Love is. I haven't checked this but i doubt there has ever been a player who led the league in rebounding and was top 15 in 3pt%. That's as unique as a skill set as they get IMO.

On a crappy team with poor reobunders - someone has to get them - would love have put up those numbers playing with a parrish and mchale?

The twolves are terrible and bereft of talent to rebound aside from love

Well it would be fun to pair Love with Howard wouldn't it :). Lets see who gets more rebounds then :)

Joke aside we can never know who good someone is about anything until he is put in a position to actually show it.

P.S. Love and Howard are a fantastic fit. Give them a decent point and i think you have a dynasty on your hands.

Interesting idea, not sure how it works but definitely need a 'passing' point guard - not enough shots...but of course, never ever gonna happen :)

Wow, did not expect to have to read these many comments during my afternoon. Love/Griffin is an interesting debate which I don't think I've seen discussed before. Both will have great careers... basically anything else you could add to the conversation has been said..

Sources say Paul won't sign with Boston if traded.

Though I still think if he just picked up the option Ainge would be happy - he wants to get another title before this team breaks up

ESPN doesn't think the Sixers will use their amnesty. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7291975/how-new-cba-affects-every-nba-team

Or at least they agree that they shouldn't use their amnesty.

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Stan reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 15:00
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Not everyone is rich enough to afford insider

Or just doesn't want to give ESPN money any more

Basically, they just said the Sixers shouldn't use amnesty on nocioni, if they wait until next summer, they could get $25M in cap space by using it on Brand.

But what to do with that 25 million in cap space
Who's left after Paul, Deron and Howard next off season?

Love I guess? I hate trying to get restricted free agents, such a pain in the arse and you really have to over pay to get a team to turn em down usually

It's less of an issue going after RFA's now with the 3-day window instead of 7. But, honestly, you aren't going to get a guy like Love or Blake Griffin to sign an offer sheet for the max another team can offer. No way, it would be such an unbelievable no-brainer for their home teams to match the offer and take the gigantic discount. Maybe a sign and trade for Love.

Yeah but RFAs still aren't going to leave that often, the benefit to staying is just too great usually.

It's great if the sixers clear the 25 million - but if they don't use it - why use the waiver on brand - wait one more year - let him expire - use it on lou (if he's still under contract) or andre and then have a lot more?

The only point to using the waiver for a sub tax team (to me) is if they have a plan to use that renewed cap room. What would that 25 mil be spent on that's a viable get.

From what I understand, they'll have to use the amnesty prior to knowing if they'll be able to sign anyone w/ the space. that's one of the first decisions of the offseason. So if you don't use it on Brand, then you're effectively out of the race for Howard before it begins, if a race does actually begin.

If the Sixers are going to get involved in any of this play for a legit superstar, I think Harris and the new ownership is going to have to be boisterous. They're going to have to sell the team, and sell any possible free agent on the fact that they're going to spend to make this team a perennial contender.

Yeah, but we all know agents talk and players talk to each other through the media, you can always get a feel of what you can and can't do or have a shot out with out really violating the rules :)

I got the impression that he was the most "NBA Ready" player available, and they took him because he was going to step right in and be a big contributor.

Assume you're talking about Evan Turner?

The problem is the Timberwolves would probably match any offer for Love. Actually i expect them to give him the max if he says he is happy there. That's a big if though.

I believe Love will be available for trade before he becomes a restricted free agent.

I don't believe that's going to happen. Unless maybe kahn gets fired and they start all over again (again).

They need to see what they have before they give up on love, and who knows, maybe he likes being in minneosta or likes that minnesota can pay him more money.

Sure there's the QO risk, one year then lose him, but even if he doesnt' want to stay in minnesota, waiting for a S&T maybe helps you more

"Boston may actually be able to provide a compelling package relative to Orlando's other options as
they have Jermaine O'neal's expiring deal and Jeff Green/Glen Davis as potential S&T assets that would
represent short-term financial commitments with manageable/movable annual cost. Factor in draft
picks JuJuan Jonhson, Avery Bradley, and two first round picks and Boston at least has the potential to
offer a "re-set button" trade scenario for Orlando to consider."

Bwahahaha, Celtics fans are awesome

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Stan reply to stan on Nov 30 at 16:12
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I would honestly take NJ's deal over that

I take it that was from a blogger or a message board somewhere.

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Stan reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 16:20
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close. From a writer for a Celtics blog.

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Stan reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 16:22
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Apparently he believes that the Celtics can bring in CP3 and Howard

Well, I guess after getting KG and Allen handed to them they expect it can happpen again.

While Sixer fans just expect Brand/Ruland to happen again.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Nov 30 at 17:30
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Hah, but this is even dumber! They traded Allen for a Top 5 draft pick at least. That's an asset.

He called Jeff Green (ironically, that very same pick) and Big Baby "sign and trade assets." Those guys aren't assets at all, much less for Dwight Howard. Their stock couldn't be any lower right now for anyone who watched the playoffs. That's just laughable how any Boston fan thinks they can swing a trade for anyone in the league for any of their garbage players.

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Toney2Turner on Nov 30 at 16:21
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Here is what I want.

Sixers get: Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman each on expiring contracts
Hornets get: Iguodala, Lou Williams, Minnesota's first round pick
Clippers get: Chris Paul

Eric Gordon is a shooting guard that plays strong defense and is the spot up jumper we need. If he doesn't pan out, he and Kaman combined free up $16 million in cap space next year to go after someone who can make a difference.

I would pay big FA money to K Love or Deandre Jordan if I though their teams wouldn't match .... but I don't think they'll let them go.

I wouldn't make the trade on the Sixers standpoint, I would wait to see how good ET is before I trade away our best player

Gordon's a good fit if Turner can guard threes, but he's not really a deadly shooter from the outside. Just a little bit above average from three. He does shoot a ton of them, though. I could live with that deal if it was accompanied by a promise the Sixers wouldn't extend Kaman under any circumstances.

The thing with Gordon is a lot of his jumpers are off the dribble. When he has his feet set, he's a very good three point shooter. I consider him someone who can stretch the floor.

Lot of moving pieces and conditions in there, the first of which being Donald Sterling committing to a long term big contract to chris paul and then doing it for blake griffin. Not really his pattern. I guess it's ok for the sixers, but I think chris paul is worth more to the hornets in terms of 'building assets'. If they trade paul aren't they giving up - why d they want iguodala at that point?

I think a team like New Orleans or Orlando are looking for building pieces, ala the Jazz trade last year for Williams. I don't think Iguodala is a good piece to use in one of these super star deals because he's not the right piece for a team like that.

To me, his best value is to a contender, but they have the least amount to trade usually

You could make it a bigger deal, include Okafor, and maybe DeAndre Jordan on a sign-and-trade with Iguodala landing in LA as well. Something like Jordan, Williams, Nocioni and like 3 #1 picks going to New Orleans. They get a young piece and expirings, get out of their old dudes/dudes who don't want to be there contracts. Throw in aminu to new orleans as well.

Interesting, but that means you gotta get it done in two weeks and that's not bloody likely :)

Or you're just yanking my chain.

It would probably have to look something like this:

Sixers get: Okafor, Kaman (expiring), Eric Gordon (RFA next summer).

Clippers get: Iguodala, Chris Paul, Ariza

Hornets get: Nocioni (expiring), Lou Williams (expiring, probably), DeAndre Jordan for somewhere around $9M in year 1 as sign-and-trade, Aminu, Randy Foye (expiring) and a #1 pick from LAC.

Sixers and clippers would both be taking on extra money in year one, which would probably push the Sixers over the lux tax for one year only until Kaman comes off the books.

Sixers lineup would be:

Jrue
Gordon
Turner
Brand
Okafor

with Meeks, Thad, Kaman, Voose coming off the bench. Pretty thin in the back court and Turner would have to be the backup PG. Against the cap, they could still clear decent cap space next summer, but they'd also have to re-sign Gordon to a healthy deal.

Hmm...not sure that helps short term because you've replaced Iguodala with Turner and while even I hate Lou Williams he's a useful bench piece. Turner as back up PG is actually a plus in my mind from what I understand about his last year in college.

The one thing i don't like about it is they probably still make the bottom part of the eastern playoffs but have no shot to win?:) It's almost a treading water kind of thing - just with a lot of pieces - at least at first blush

It's a problem to have turner as your backup pg if he's also the only SF you have on your roster.

Yeah - but yo ucan sign a 'back up' pg for the vet minimum or something if you really need to.

The bigger issue to me is that even though it's a massive roster shake up i still think it leaves the sixers in no mans land long term :)

Gordon can give you a few minutes at PG.

That team does not really excite me. It is solid, but does not really create the type of mismatches you need to win. Also a bit small at SG/SF.

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 17:23
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If New Orleans would do that, I would be perfectly fine with it. The biggest obstacle would be Turner guarding threes as you said. Even though then your ultimate 1-3 automatic switch dream stays in place. Gordon and Kobe are probably the two most physical 2 guards in the league, though I could be missing someone.

Honestly if Iguodala gets traded the only team that truly makes sense are the Clippers. They are a young team with assets that wants to become a contender. That's the kind of team that suits the Sixers best.

Possible assets going to the sixers:
- Wolves 1st round pick
- Bledsoe
- Aminu
- Kaman

with Jordan and Gordon as long shots.

What's the kind of trade using these pieces that you guys think makes sense? A three way deal is also possible but those are too complicated and rarely happen when trading star players.

I guess Kaman + Minnesota pick is the best deal we can get out of it. Unfortunately i think the Clippers are saving that pick for Orlando. They wanna make a push for Howard with Jordan and the pick i guess...

I guess Kaman + Minnesota pick is the best deal we can get out of it. Unfortunately i think the Clippers are saving that pick for Orlando. They wanna make a push for Howard with Jordan and the pick i guess...

That requires Orlando to decide in the next month to give up on Howard and I don't think they're going to make the decision that fast, I think it's a trade deadline thing like Carmelo that plays out.

With the Sixers' luck, they'd make that trade and then Minny would make the playoffs.

Collins on Turner:

"Evan, I think right now feels like he's our best player. Which is great. I want him to keep that confidence level."

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raro reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 18:01
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"We know Lou feels good about himself."

Kate Fagan: Thorn says @Thaddeus Young "key player." "We love, Thad," Thorn said. "As long as any offer for Thad is 'reasonable' #Sixers will match it." Twitter

Something about that statement is wrong, and not just beyond the surface wrongness

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 30 at 18:06
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yeah, was just going to post that. Doug kinda made it seem like it's Evans starting job to lose when he said he's confident in playing Iggy and ET together.

Collins also said he's going to try Brackins at SF. Here's the link from Kate. link

Hey - at least he remembers that brackins is on the roster?:)

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 19:17
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Was it Eddie Jordan that didn't who Jason Smith was? I still giggle about that. There's only 12 people on the team.

mike miller.

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Tom Moore on Nov 30 at 18:56
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Video: Doug Collins and Rod Thorn Wednesday on getting back to basketball and the shortened training camp and preseason. Collins also talked about Evan Turner's progress and how he plans to play Andre Iguodala and Turner together. "Evan, right now, feels like he’s our best player, which is great," Collins said.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/sports/sixers/sixers-collins-thorn/youtube_6f5b45ae-89ac-5cde-9835-6467f400ed6c.html

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Rich reply to Tom Moore on Nov 30 at 23:38
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It's so great to see Doug back talking about hoops.

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Tom Moore on Nov 30 at 21:29
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Tom Moore on Nov 30 at 21:45
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Thorn told me today that Sixers are unlikely to use amnesty provision this season.

Well, I'd say that qualifies as good news.

So - no real cap space to add any sort of player to their incomplete roster after they pay thad sascha and hawes?

I suppose that's good news?

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Tom Moore reply to GoSixers on Nov 30 at 22:53
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Could use it on Brand in 2012-13, which would save $18.2 million. That'd make a much bigger impact than Nocioni's $6.6 mill.

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Tom Moore reply to Tom Moore on Nov 30 at 22:54
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Collins also said he's planning to use Iguodala and Turner together more, and to take a look at Brackins as a big 3.

Well, Brackins would actually kind of fit as a three with Jrue/Turner or Turner/Iguodala or Iguodala/Jrue at 1/2 because he'll just heave up a shot every time he touches the ball. Kind of what they need out of the third guy, if he can actually hit the shots. I'm not really confident he's ever going to be more than just a chucker who doesn't shoot very well, though.

Oh that I understand, and with a new ownership and short off season I'm not too high in expecting anything, but the whole continuity thing rubs me the wrong way...

Two pre season games against the wizards, more of the best collection of immature talent in the NBA :)

I like JRU to replace M33K$, he only needs three or four percentage points from deep.

If EMT has his NBA midrange no one will be able to stop him on his way to the rim. There were moments last year when I wanted him in just for his rebounding (so long as he didn't shoot).

PG/SF EMT (aka Evan Marcel Turner)
SG/PG JRU
PtF/SF Enigmadala

That's some defensive, reboundin' and playmakin' prowess right there.


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