DFDepressed FanDepressed Fan



, all the time

A Fun Trade Idea

No faith in Evan Turner?

You mean the starting lineup? I actually wrote Turner at first, but with Smith at the four, I think there's even more of a need for a three-point shooter on the floor to keep teams honest.

ET is the perfect replacement for Lou, since it puts him in a position where he can handle the ball and back up all three positions (PG/SG/SF.) With Lou (and Thad) gone, ET would be even more important to this team- even in a 6th man role. In fact I'd say he'd be more important in that 6th man role then if he starts.

Be a fun trade, but all those mediocre centers need playing time - if this guaranteed letting Hawes walk I'd be much more in favor of it.

Hinrich recently underwent shoulder surgery and is going to miss time at the beginning of the season anyway so who knows maybe the hawks wouldn't mind Lou :)

Lou would be a decent upgrade over crawford as well.

I am predicting now that Jamal Crawford gets the worst contract versus actual production this off season

I would pull the trigger on the first two in a heartbeat, but I'd have to think about option 3 a little bit. I think Brand is an important low post presence for us- giving a back to the basket option that Smith can't replace. But I'm pretty sure I'd go with any of the three.

Option one would be an absolute steal. I don't think Howard will be in Orlando to leave via free agency next summer, but option one + amnesty of Brand = Jrue, Turner, Iggy, Smith, and D12. WOW. That's a monster defensive team.

I'm happy with either deal 1 or deal 2. Prefer deal 1 since it removes Lou (I'd trade Lou for a bag of expired rice).

Wouldn't do deal 3. Brand and Smith provide about equal production, but Brand is a better leader and Smith is a huge headcase. I do love Lou for Hinrich though.

Also, I'd remove Meeks from the starting lineup (of course, I'd remove Meeks from the roster).

Being a stickler for communication, I love that Smith jumps 13 telephone books higher than Brand and uses speed dial in the process.

I'd do options 1 & 3 in a rollover minute; option 2 would require 3 rollover minutes as I like Thad as a person and representative of Philadelphia.

None of the options get Sixers what they need.

It's funny, I was thinking about this exact trade framework (1 & 3) today too. Athletically and defensively we'd have to be in the top 3-4 in the whole league if we got Smith and kept Iggy & Thad.

I'm not sure that this trade makes us worse in any way. Brand played better at the 5 than Hawes did last year or Vuc will this year, and we only tie up 2 years of cap room, which would've been tied up anyway with Brand, before making long-term commitments.

By the way, I had a sobering thought when I was walking the dog tonight.

What if the Knicks amnesty Melo next summer and go after Dwight and CP3 in free agency? They could easily afford both, and a big three of Howard, Stoudemire, Paul is about 15x better than CP3, Stoudemire and Melo. They could also amnesty Stoudemire and do Howard, Melo, CP3. Shit, I really hope that doesn't happen.

I highly doubt they'd amnesty either of the two guys that have made them suddenly relevant again. Only if Stoudemire shows serious wear and tear from injuries this season would it be a possibility. No way they amnesty Carmelo IMO.

If they could get Dwight Howard AND Chris Paul you don't think they'd amnesty Carmelo in a heart beat?

I think they would

Only way to get chris paul in a trade would be to include Melo or Amare - they have practically nothing else anyone would want

No, I think they'd go with Carmelo, Stoudemire, and Howard (unless Stoudemire's knee is shot in which case they'd amnesty him and bring in Paul).

Paul is head and shoulders better than Stoudemire and Melo. It's not even close. If they have a legit shot to get both of those guys, they'd be crazy not to amnesty either stoudemire or melo. probably stoudemire.

For the sake of argument, I'll agree that Paul is better than Melo and Stoudemire. That's still not enough. It's not an apples to apples comparison, because you're treating the amnesty as if it's free. I get that the Knicks make serious profit, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee they're fine with throwing away $60 million. Additionally, I think the Knicks are committed to Carmelo and Stoudemire. These are the guys who came to New York one year after the franchise was in the depths. I don't think they will abandon them like that.

I also think that Paul's knee is a concern that would make any team hesitate to amnesty $60 million to acquire him.

How long did Isiah stay in power paying 100 million dollars per year to garbage that ddin't make the playoffs

i don't think you get HOW rich the dolans are and HOW much money they could charge for even mediocre seats if the knicks were a serious title contender.

If waiving Carmelo guaranteed them Paul and Howard - they would do it in a heart beat

Hell - if waiving lebron guaranteed the heat Paul and Howard I bet they'd do it

Stuart reply to Brian on Dec 4 at 21:13

What if Orlando offers a Howard for Melo trade straight up? Same effect as amnesty but the optics are different.

Wouldn't NYK ultimately say yes? and wouldn't this realistically be the best deal ORL could get for Dwight?

Stuart reply to Stuart on Dec 4 at 21:16

I meant to add that this would give them more room to sign Chris Paul as a FA, since Dwight's max deal under the new CBA will be lower than Melo's is

If the Magic aren't a contender with Dwight, they certainly won't be one with Melo. They should be looking to reset in a meaningful way if they're going to trade Dwight. Meaning, they need to amnesty one of Gilbert/Hedo, and trade the other along w/ Howard.

Stuart reply to Brian on Dec 4 at 21:41

Of course, but I'm not sure ORL management thinks that way. They may be more interested in filling seats in their brand new arena, and if Otis Smith is retained he might not want to admit the terrible job he's done by tearing down the team. Even though it's not terribly wise, I have to think it's a plausible scenario.

Tray reply to stoned81 on Dec 4 at 19:57

They were relevant, and playing better, before they traded for Melo. I don't think the fans have any kind of loyalty or great connection to Melo, and he certainly isn't integral to their winning games. I would say that Melo is, at best, a top 20 player in the league. Amare's quite a bit better, Paul's a lot better than Amare, and Howard's a better player than Paul but it's close. I'd happily do what Brian suggested if I were them.

It would have to be a B.S., under-the-table type deal for this to happen, because they couldn't even negotiate w/ either Paul or Howard before making the decision to use the amnesty on Melo or Stoudemire.

All 4 are uniquely talented. Which among them has the champion's heart? None have been at the redemption window yet.

Tray reply to Dollar Bill on Dec 5 at 1:04

I think Paul has an enormous amount of heart, as we saw in last year's playoff series against the Lakers, and has been saddled with pretty lousy supporting casts. I have no doubt that he could win multiple titles on the right team.

You might be right. I think his magnificence is a little overplayed. I prefer players that achieve their productivity without requiring the ball 90 percent of possession time. Among his ball-monopolizing type, gimme prime Jason Kidd over him. For Green Energy PG, like Rondo @ 9 mil (over Paul's 15), if only he could learn to sink free throws at a greater clip.

It would be a great situation for the Knicks. I don't think it's possible though, because if the Knicks amnesty a guy whom they promised so much, no prominent free agent will sign for them. No player wants the amnesty clause used on them and that kind of a move could (and i think would) have larger implications.

Not to mention, the Knicks organization and Knicks fans probably think Anthony and Stoudemire are better than Dwight (the can score 40!!!)

Stan reply to Xsago on Dec 5 at 12:23

Who care what Amare thinks or what the fans think. A Howar-Melo-Paul trio is garaunteed at least 1 championship.

I would keep Melo over Amare. Amare has bad knees and Howard can run the pick and roll with CP3, just not as effectively.

CP3 and Howards care. If they see an organization that treats it's players like they would have treated Amare (or Melo) it's highly unlikely they will sign for that team. Whose to guarantee them that they will not do the same to them in a year or two.

Things like these matter to players more than you think IMO. The simple notion of the organization and the city fully supporting you and being behind you no matter what, has as much if not more influence on a free agents decision than the possibility of getting a championship (Money always come first of course).

I think you're completely wrong actually. It's not like they're putting hm out in the cold, they're making a smart move because it makes their team better.

Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, we want you more than we want Carmelo Anthony.

I think you're over thinking it

I'd do either scenario 1 or 2. If they did either of those scenarios they'd certainly have an exciting style of play. I'd prefer keeping Thad (at a reasonable price) to Lou Wiliiams.

One thing that bothers me is how with the new minimum cap number a number of teams will be "forced" to throw excess money at FA. It is sort of unfair that this will likely lead to Thad getting crazy money and make it unlikely he will remain a Sixer.

It seems like the new CBA means 2 years of an artificially inflated cap/tax and terrible contracts followed by a sudden shift when these 1st 2 years are over. Seems like these next 2 years are real danger zone for the Sixers and other teams- if they spend too much they will be hosed.

Actually I think that's perfect for the Sixers. All our contracts are for 2 more years, gets us to the shift year.

Yup, that's exactly how i believe thing will shape out in the first two years of the CBA. Long term it makes sense but short term this rule is going to create serious problems for a lot of teams.

Like Smith but would rather have Gortat for Williams (who will have value as Nash's replacement next year)then we could rescind our offer for Hawes!

khouse reply to khouse on Dec 4 at 21:14

Sorry...forgot about Aaron Brooks & apparently so did ESPN (as he's not listed on the NBA Trade Machine roster) lol!

He signed in China, I think. Can't play here this year.

Rich reply to khouse on Dec 5 at 1:33

Man, I'm pretty sure Phoenix wouldn't do that. From what I've read they really like Gortat, and they wouldn't possibly have Lou try and run that offense full-time. At least I hope they wouldn't.

Why go get Smith when Thad gives you simular productivity for far less money? Thad could easily match Smith's numbers with simular minutes. And if you do trade for Smith is there a need for Thad?

For the record, I do not want Brand playing too many minutes a center. It just adds to the wear and tear on his body. That was the reason I wanted Vucevic. Vucevic atleast gives you some size and youth at that position. Hopefully he turns into an upgrade from Hawes.

Besides the fact that Smith is one of the best defensive forwards in the league and Thad's a terrible defender, they're exactly alike.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Dec 4 at 21:51

terrible? He made strides last year, come on. He's nothing like Josh Smith, but no need to trash Thad, I don't consider him a burden on the defensive end or anything.

He's below average if you can keep him confined to the paint, but if he needs to get into any kind of helping or rotation, he's terrible. Gets lost routinely. It's funny, they're better off with him guarding bigger 4s, the stretch fours absolutely kill him (and the entire team defense) because he's always out of position, over-helping, or missing a rotation entirely.

Also, although people make too much about blocks- Smith is a guy who causes players to alter their shots. I remember Sixer games where the entire team got tentative about entering the lane after Smith had a few blocks.

As opposed to teams drooling when they see Hawes on the floor.

Rich reply to Brian on Dec 5 at 1:47

I see what you are saying, and agree about rotations being a weakness of Thad's, but still isn't playing a stretch four counter intuitive though? Don't you feel that the team plays right into Collins' hands when they try and go small against the Sixers?

First there is less of a threat of hurting the Sixers in their weak spot defensively, inside. Also, you are theoretically trying to make more threes against a team that does a really good job defending (the amount, and percentage) threes.

I guess what I'm saying is that under Jordan, having Thad guard stretch fours was really bad. I feel like Collins minimizes the defensive harm where they can use their size and speed with Iguodala and Thad at three and four to cause havoc on offense and in transition.

I disagree. Stretch fours absolutely killed the Sixers last year (think Ryan Anderson). Collins can use Thad to pack the lane, where his help and rotations are at a minimum, but when you put a four out there that he has to chase, they really struggle.

Rich reply to Brian on Dec 5 at 3:23

OK, we'll disagree, but I find it hard to say that the team really struggled with stretch fours when they were really good at defending the three. The rotational data would be interesting if we could somehow find it, but i doubt it.

When I look at the stats of some of the true stretch fours (PF's who shoot threes), I came up with a lot of guys who had pedestrian scoring numbers:

Channing Frye, Antawn Jamison, Wilson Chandler and Danilo Galinari with the Knicks, and Matt Bonner all were average to below average.

Andrea Bargnani, Lamar Odom, Rashard Lewis (8-12 one game, 1 point the next one) and Ryan Anderson were guys I found that had success.

Then again, two of those guys also play with brutal frontcourts with low post threats. Really, I think the lack of dominating inside scorers in the league helps Collins. I would say the formula is generally Stretch four plus low post threats hurt the Sixers. Just saying stretch fours in a vacuum though? Don't completely buy that.

Rich reply to Rich on Dec 5 at 3:28

When I say rotational data, meaning how the team defends stretch fours, but that's pretty hard to do. I would change my position if it spelled out that the other teams were extremely efficient whenever they had those guys on the floor.

Dominant low post threats + good stretch 4s would kill any team not just the Sixers.

I'm neutral on this. Basically my feeling is that both types of opponents on average do equal damage. Thad is not a good defender but has improved quite a bit last year. I rewatched the Miami series recently and he had some really solid defensive plays that i didn't think he had in him.

I think the key trade off that you inevitably get with Thad is scoring vs rebounding. Thad will very likely outscore his matchup (his offense will more than offset his defense), whether he is a stretch 4 or a low post big guy. The problems that remain is defensive rebounding and that makes Thad a liability unless paired with a strong rebounder at C.

Btw by rewatching the Miami series i just remembered how desperately this team needs a rebounding Center. Defensive rebounding lost us that series.

P.S. I would suggest anyone to rewatch this series to jump start this season. I just did it and i am pumped up again!!!

Cin reply to KellyDad on Dec 4 at 21:35

No, he doesn't. If Thad is earning 8-9 mil a year, which at this point is starting to look like the floor of what he'll be offered, you aren't saving all that much. Not saving anything at all if you also consider that he'll likely be signed to a four or five year deal.

Where did you hear that 8-9 million would be his floor?

He's seen as an 'above average' free agent in a weak market - there is reportedly interest (the nets i think?) in him and those teams would have to make an offer they think the sixers wouldn't match - i think 7-8 mil is something they'd match

Cin reply to GoSixers on Dec 4 at 23:02

Basically this. When teams are considering guys like Nene Hilario and Tyson chandler as "near max" type guys, and Samuel Dalembert as "above full MLE", then the 23 year old 3rd runner-up for 6th Man of The Year is going to get paid handsomely. If 7-8 mil is a reasonable, likely to be be matched figure, then teams will offer quite a bit more. Especially teams who need to spend to reach 85% of the cap.

If Nene is really going to command a near-max deal, I seriously hope the sixers aren't willing to overspend for Thad.

I'm just glad the Sixers don't have cap space this year. Nene will be a horrible contract from day 1.

I agree with Brand at center, it doesn't really work (I hate Collins' "small ball"). Let's keep Brand at the 4 and give more minutes to Vucevic, who is going to be a beast.

I agree with Brand at center, it doesn't really work

This is complete nonsense. Last season, with Brand at the five and Thad at the four the Sixers out-scored their opponents 2,120 to 1,925 in 985 minutes. In the other 3,000 minutes of play they were outscored 5,999 to 6,071. So +195 with TY at the 4 and EB at the 5. -72 the rest of the time. You really don't know what you're talking about, at all.

If you want to say it's too hard on Brand, or maybe it won't translate if you try to up it to 2,000 minutes against starting lineups, fine. But saying it didn't work is moronic. It was their best alignment, by far.

I mentioned this in another thread and I absolutely agree, adding Josh Smith would be incredible, if a few years late. He grabbed the 11th most defensive rebounds last year and Elton Brand grabbed the 8th most offensive rebounds. Plus, his and Andre Iguodala's defense would only further the 76ers burgeoning defensive identity.

I'm against starting EB at center with someone like Thaddeus Young because it would put too much work on him, but it would be very feasible if he's next to a shot blocker like Smith. That being said, I only see this deal making sense (for both teams) if Young is included. Having one hybrid forward sub in for another seems fairly redundant.

The top of the bench should remain mostly unchanged. Louis Williams as the backup point, Evan Turner the swingman, and then Hawes/Vucevic backing up the 5 so Brand can slide down to the 4.

In ATL I thought that the consensus is that Al Horford is more 4 than 5, and Josh Smith is 3 than 4? I'm just curious how Smith holds up as a 3, really.

He doesn't shoot it well enough to be a three, but I suppose you get minutes for him there if you needed to. He's a better bet at the three than Thad is, because he can handle the ball a little bit and he's a pretty good passer.

Can he defend threes?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he can defend one through four and some fives. Length, quickness, reflexes. Personally, I like him on fours, around the hoop where he's a step or two away from meeting drivers at the rim. I'd also love to have him being the guy hedging and recovering on the pick-and-roll.

By the way, I'm offended you chose a pic of fast eddie which doesn't showcase the braces.

Trust me i've looked. I'll keep looking.

From Woj: "One league official says there are seven NBA teams that have two stretches of 5 games in 6 nights this season. Good luck with that."

Odds are off the board that the Sixers are one of those teams.

I'm not a fan of Josh Smith at all. I think his defense is overrated and is more flash than substance. He is a headcase on top of it. Still i would do all of those deals. If not else Smith is a better trade bait than Brand, Lou or Thad are. Such a trade most likely won't help us long term or short term in the win department though, so beware.

Cin reply to Xsago on Dec 5 at 3:10

Despite his youth (turned 26 today actually) I wouldn't consider this a long-term move. After the 12-13 season you'll have Brand's 18M and Smith's 13M coming off the books. Iguodala, who will almost certainly opt out, would add another 16M in cap space being cleared. After that you're left with only Turner, Vucevic, Brackins, and maybe Holiday. In the short term they won't be any worse and you have the option to wipe the slate clean after two seasons.

The Greek on Dec 5 at 12:07

I can't remember the last time the sixers actually made a significantly good trade, and no the Wee Willie G. trade doesn't count.

Some people consider the Iverson trade significantly good, I'm not one of them though, did you consider it good?

Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 5 at 16:56

Purely in terms of getting value back, it was good, but as you and I agree, we shouldn't have been looking to get back equal veteran value.

The Greek reply to GoSixers on Dec 6 at 10:47

No I don't count that as a good trade.

Expand/Contract all comments

Leave a comment