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If You Were In Charge

For the record, I voted "Going for broke." Right now there are two superstars being dangled and I'd put together the absolute best package I could to get them. Right now, odds are neither would re-sign in Philly long term, but it's a risk I'd be willing to take, especially for Howard. It's unlikely you could get him, but I think it becomes more likely the more those players limit their possible landing spots.

If you do get one, you've got immediate legitimacy and a year to figure out how to get him to stay. If he does decide to walk, well, then you really rebuild, start from scratch and hope for a lucky ping pong ball, or three.

If that's going for broke, I'm fine with it, but I need an extension at the time of the trade. There's no way I'm trading Jrue (which is what it would take) without assurance it's for more than a year.

If that's not possible, I tear it down, keep Jrue and Turner, try to get a superstar in the draft, and get complementary pieces through free agency.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2011/11/29/2595658/what-the-76ers-should-do-and-what-they-will

I voted for continuity while holding my nose. My true preference is continuity minus Jodie Meeks and Lou Williams. Collins is making me sick with his treatment of Turner, it's getting pretty clear that he just has it out for the guy. I felt this way last year when he reduced Turner's minutes to near zero in retaliation for Turner saying "I just wanna play for crying out loud." This is the same BS Collins pulled with Theo Ratliff in Detroit. Ratliff couldn't get out of Collins' doghouse, Collins eventually forced the team to trade him out of town, and Theo became a great piece for the Sixers, followed by Collins departure a year later. I fear the exact same thing happening with Turner. Collins will bury him again this year, Collins will be in Thorn's ear to trade him, eventually he'll get his way, and Turner will shine for another team while we watch as Collins retires the following year.

Evan Turner averaged 23 mpg last year. He played all 3 positions and started when Iguodala was injured. Collins gave him the opportunities but ET didn't deliver.

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raro reply to stoned81 on Dec 14 at 10:12
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It sure is easy to point out the historical failures of Collins and ignore his successes isn't it? Collins failed to develop Ratliff and K Brown, therefore he is no good at developing young talent. That's the BS.

You ignore his work with the young Bulls (Pippen and Grant) and Grant Hill and seem to be actively rooting for him to fail.

What about his work with Jrue? What about the fact that his coaching and development style has changed and will continue to change over the coming years?

ET will get his chance no doubt. Even if he isn't named a starter, he will get his 30 min a game.

Collins was fired before the BUlls really accomplished anything because he wore out his welcome, I believe in less than 3 seasons, just like he did in Washington

That only means he didn't win what he was expected to with those teams. It doesn't have anything to do with the work he did with young Pippen, Grant Hill... Not to mention that he has probably evolved as well with age an experience.

And as i wrote those names i just figured out that Collins is probably the type of coach our all around players need (Holiday, Turner, Iguodala)

If you can't get DH12, then don't you almost have to go for continuity? There's no superprospect worth tanking this coming year for, the team as currently built was a few fluke games away from being a 5-6 seed, and while the Knicks and possibly Nets may be better this season, the only two teams that look like they're set to be dominant this year are the Heat and possibly Bulls...don't the Celtics and Magic have to fall apart one of these years?

Plus if you look around at the rest of the Philly teams, the Phils look like they are only one or two injuries away from an Eagles-like collapse, and the Flyers may already be there if Giroux is out for any significant amount of time...a Sixer team that makes the playoffs as a 4-5-6 seed and may win a round might not be ideal, but it may not be long until that could look a whole lot better than the other Philly teams...

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deepsixersuede on Dec 14 at 0:52
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I voted continuity but with one caveat, I would of gone big when we had the #2 pick. I think Turner will be good but with a 19 year old p.g. it made to much sense to either take Favors or Cousins or trade down for Monroe.

It seems easier to get a wing player and THAT was the time to go big.We have taken a top 5 player in their respective drafts [Young, Holiday, Iguadala] with Turner possibly becoming #4 so we are rebuilding but have not gotten a big that that can be said about.

I think right now keep continuity...And let players develop. Amnesty Brand after the season and offer max deals to DH12 and one of the other potential studs out there. If I did the math right, which there is a very good chance that I did not, I think that is possible. Would those guys consider coming knowing they could do it together with a nucleus of Iguodala, Turner, Thad, Jrue already in place?

I guess I'll go with continuity because I don't think a superstar would sign. One, who would he play with - we'd have to trade Jrue to get him, so what's the attraction of coming here, playing with the league's best wing defender? Two, Paul and Howard are clearly most interested in playing in LA or New York. Williams may be more flexible but the Nets aren't moving him. Blowing things up wouldn't work. I can see dealing Iguodala and Brand, but you don't get bad enough to rebuild simply by moving them. We have to wait, I think, for (or hope that) Jrue becomes the sort of player who's good enough to attract star free agents.

Also, Nets/Magic talks "heating up," for whatever that's worth. Not too surprising now that they lost out on Nene.

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jaydigsthesixers on Dec 14 at 1:54
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I voted for continuity for a few reasons.
First, in regards to Brian's post and with all due (lots) respect, I disagree that going for Howard or Paul is even a reasonable option. We see the big stars wanting to go where there is one or more of the following attractions: Glamour (NY or LA), recent success or a super star. Our Sixers have none of that to offer at this point. It would be the worst move possible to make a trade for Howard or Paul without the very serious possibility that they would re-sign. The FA market right now isn't that great. Nene is/was the best player out there and although he'd help the Sixers I don't think he is what we really need.
Second, I think DC is going great with this team. There are two or three players on this team that have not come close to reaching their full potential. DC is probably the best person to max out Jrue's, Evan's and Thad's potential. This year should be about building on last years promise. 35 wins would be a success and we can hope to make it to the second round of the Playoffs. I do think we'll need to add a fairly large piece to this puzzle to be a contender, but I think this year is about making Philly more attractive for this summer's or next summer's FA's.
Third, it is a lot to expect of an ownership group who came in during an offseason extended by a lockout to do much more than maintain the status quo. It could have been done, but because of my first two points it would have been much more difficult and much more risky to do anything to try to drastically improve this team.
Saying that, I'm still really excited for this year!

Would add though, that I'd think about dealing Iguodala and taking a step back into the late lottery. But that's a risky move, as we just might develop into some kind of a contender with this unit.

Concise ring with Iguodala at his best he has never produced more than 41 wins, what is concidered a "step back" without him?

I meant "concidering with"

I wish we could make a deal for a star, if only Howard would put us on his list. Since that won't happen, I would be calling up Toronto every day to see what we could dump on them for the rights to Valanciunas. They are already upset that he won't come over till next year, and this is the same organization that hired Stefanski as VP because they thought he had a great resume. Not only that, but they continue to pay the least productive big man in the league millions to stand behind the three point line. This is the type of team we should be taking advantage of in a trade, but of course Thorn won't see it that way.

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stickyicky on Dec 14 at 2:28
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i voted for continuity b/c once things started leveling off last season we became a threat. Workman like ethics by all squad members translate to us being able to compete with the best squads on any given night. Plus with the added cap space we can do big things coming up. This year is already an anomaly and most (super)stars' contracts are only 2 years anyway. Of course if we could get Dwight I would say do it, but as Philly fans we all know that aint happening.

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johnrosz on Dec 14 at 2:33
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from Woj:

Howard hasn’t rescinded his trade request to the Nets, but as one source close to him says: “He runs hot and cold. …He just doesn’t always know what he wants.”

----

I'm not sure I can stomach the idea of trading away the whole team for a guy that has shown himself to be extremely fickle

I'm torn between continuity and tore down and rebuild. Continuity because there is really little downside to this plan (selecting a few picks later in the draft). Rebuild because that's the only option that eventually guarantees you having enough assets to turn into a contender.

I went for continuity in the end because i feel like this team is not in a position to rebuild. Substract Iguodala and Brand and replace them with young talented players and keep Collins as coach i still think this team will win enough games to not win a top 7-8 pick. And teams picking 9-14 are the truly mediocre teams that have nowhere to go. The 76ers are at least a step ahead of those.

Moreover, i know it's way to early and we don't even know who will be in the draft but i feel like this draft will be very deep and you can draft a guy with huge potential in the late teens just as much as you can draft one at 10. not sure there is guy who will be a surefire superstar either. There are like 10 guys potentially worthy of the number 3 pick but none in the Lebron,Howard,Rose,Durant class. At least that's my initial thought on the draft, it might change significantly by the end of the year.

I think they are stuck.

I would not sell the farm for a rental. But trading for CP3 or Howard would be just that.

I also don't see how they can realistically dump all of their talented young role players to where they will get a shot at a top lottery pick.

On the flip side, at some point you have to get a superstar to be "relevant." So as long as you don't take on too much long term contract you are stuck in a holding pattern.

If they want to be "bold", I would try and land a decent young PF and a pick for Iguodala and the amnesty Brand:

Jrue/Lou
Meeks
Turner
?(Iggy trade piece)/Young
Voose/Hawes/Speights

That way you likely get a top 10 pick and another 1st rounder from the Iggy trade.

The risk being angering Jrue and ET to where you loose them in 2 years and you have to assume the Clippers/wolves mantra.

But one risk of dealing Iguodala and Brand right now is that they are at a nadir in value.

Iguodala is coming off of a down year and seems primed for a bounce back that could up his value to a contender. While Brand might get real value next season as a large expiring with talent that the Sixers could offer to a team poised to be way over the tax when the real CBA kicks in (right after Brand expires.) Of course that would involve the Sixers taking on longer term salary in return, which could be counterproductive past 1 year, which reduces that trade value.

I voted for continuing to build the chemistry. JRU, Young Baddeus, EMT (aka Evan Marcel Turner), WillLou and M33K$ aren't even fully grown yet.

My main issue is that I don't want to tear it down (aka trading The Best Wing Defender In The Association) because we signed El Ton. When he first came here I called him BrandX, Generic Brand, EWebb, then El Ton and His Voodoo Calf, then EWebb++ and Ton 2.0 .

In a way, he's (still) EWebb++ but he really brought the Reghanistan Evans on defence last year, he passed out of doubleteams, and he, lol, drove that big rig to the hole. Well, he mostly ended up shooting the ball into his opponent's armpit on those drives but he did get fouled quite a bit, lol.

Anyway, I ended up calling him El Ton or just Ton.

Because our young core (yeah, I said it?) still have room to grow - under Coach D-Woozy's tutelage and physically - I'm fine with keeping Ton on the floor for another year.

With no interior presence whatsoever, our young team played Top Ten D last year after being at the bottom of the pool the year before. I don't want to ship our defensive captain because of Stiffphanski (aka Fanski The Strikeout King) and our Team Doctor, Dr. Seuss.

Give it another year then use the amnesty on our waaay overpaid solid senior citizen, El Ton.

I forgot - only the Chicago Bulls improved their win record more than the young 'Ers did. We lost twice as many games as they did, sure, but we did start at 3-13.

OT - They beat us by 40+ but I think we took the series 2-1. I know, the who cares factor is way high on that one...

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deepsixersuede on Dec 14 at 7:59
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Brian, if we had held onto Sam, would his expiring allowed the team a better chance at Howard or Paul this offseason?

*sighs*

Alas, my man Little Hatee. The Wall Of Voodoo. Every time ('Ers and Sacs) the guy gets starters minutes he double-doubles. Fact phans? Fact.

We played Top 10 D last year with Agent 00-SHHH, The Backup protectin' the iron.

If "ifs" were riffs jazz would be deader.

Sam's contract expired. He is not on an expiring contract anymore.

I voted for continuity, but just for now/this year. Honestly this wasn't the best year to have cap space, given so many other teams' situations. I'd rather keep the young guys together and help them improve this year, then strike in free agency when we have better situations coming up in the next couple year. Everyone better not underestimate the power of continuity. We seem to blow it off, but these guys should get out of the gates really really fast and be on the same page before almost any other team in the league is. Don't forget, the last time the Sixers had this many players returning from the year before, they started 10-0.

I would go for broke. If winning one championship meant being a horrible team for the next 10 years, I would do it. I don't care if Jrue is the next Gray Payton or if Evan Turner is the next Oscar Robertson, I would get rid of them in a heartbeat to get Dwight and CP3.

You can't get Howard AND Paul no matter what you traded for them. You are not getting a championship anyway with only one or even both of them (if you trade away everything). That's why go for broke is a useless strategy to me because it doesn't help bring either of them long term nor does it help the team win a championship.

I would only go for broke if I can get both of them. I would never trade Jrue for a one year rental of Howard or Paul. But if the option was on the table to get both Howard and Paul I would do it, knowing full well that they could leave in the off season.

The things is that's not a possible scenario. Every non contender team would do that kind of a trade, but none of the have the assets to pull it off. The Lakers thought about it, but soon found out it's impossible.

And yet the Lakers are rumored to be back in the Chris Paul deal (yet they still need a third team)

They are also rumored to be getting out of the race for Howard and they want to field a team of Paul,Bryant,Bynum.

Would you trade for Okafur, (Nocioni and Hawes)? It would make us a top 5 team in the East, but it would take away any chance at next year's free agency.

I believe I made my intentions clear when I came up with the trade idea that netted the sixers 2 possible lottery picks in the 2011/12 draft.

Continuity isn't going to win the sixers much except MAYBE a first round playoff win, getting a superstar (to me) isn't a realistic goal because the sixers don't have the cap room / assets / atrractiveness (no doug collins is not a lure to free agents) to get a big name free agent and still have a team around him.

People who think the sixers can get dwight howard in a trade without giving up Jrue Holiday are just delusional to me.

I also disagree that Andre Iguodala or Elton Brand are at the nadir's of their trade value. Hell Brand had his best season in 3 seasons last year and Iguodala was still real damn good even though he was injured

I want to believe the sixers are building towards a title, somehow, that there's a plan in place I believe in. And yes, luck is a part of it, show me a team that wins an NBA title without some luck? The Heat are lucky to have gotten Wade, the Mavs are lucky that the sixers ignored whomever and drafted Larry Hughes in stead, hell so are the celtics. The lakers are lucky that the hornets were stupid and said 'yes let's trade kobe bryant for vlade divac' and then were given another gift from the grizzlies. The bulls, without derrick rose, they aren't good, the blazers draft durant instead of oden, the thunder aren't title contenders.

Of course there's an element of luck, sadly, that's just how it works in the NBA. You gotta get lucky, but you can't get lucky if your plan is to keep losing in the first round. My idea of the 3 team sixer magic clippers trade (though clippers fans think Blake Griffin straight up for Dwight Howard is a bad deal) is the only thing I see that gives me any hope the sixers will contend for a finals appearance, even in their conference.

They would have the twolves 2012 first round pick (which is unprotected and most likely a top 5 lottery pick, the sixers themselves would be a bad lottery team, cap room would be available to facilitate trades for other teams which can lead to more asset obtaining.

I already know all the counter argument, but losing in the first round year after year is boring, you need smart management AND luck to win an NBA title, right now the sixers are not doing anything that to me that doesn't say 'let's keep losing in their first round, at least we get a couple home playoff games'

Do not continue the trend of keeping players (Andre Miller) until they just walk away, just so you can lose in the first round.

Be bold, be daring, build a winner AND THEN fans will come, they don't give a crap about your new mascot, your cheaper (bad) seats, your cheerleaders.

Fans in Philadelphia support a winner (and penn state for god knows what reason). The phillies have the second longest home sellout streak in the majors I think - (after Boston of course) cause they win. If they want back to say, third place, next year (possible maybe), you'd see a drop in attendance in a year or two. Winning is what draws people in, and winning means winning in the playoffs.

They don't have a dynamic talent that draws in casual fans, they don't have a franchise any one believes is going to make a conference finals appearance any time soon.

If you can't project that this roster at 'full maturity' is going to be better than the Bulls or Heat (and it's not because by the time others 'mature' certain key pieces will be gone) then take the risk and start over, new ownership should WANT a fresh start, hell it's the perfect time to start over, new ownership, new CBA, give it a shot, cause seriously, nothings worse than knowing your team is stuck in the middle

The one thing i definitely agree with here is luck.

I wouldn't mind if they decided to blow it up because i am pro drafting great players. The problem is i am not sure that team will lose that many games. And losing games on purpose is the worst possible thing that could happen, it would damage the young players almost irreparably.

And here's the thing with luck. If you get lucky you can draft a great player in the mid first round as well.

Nowitzki, Bryant, Pierce, Nash and the second tier guys such as Rondo, Granger etc were all drafted out of the high lottery picks. On the other hand there are a ton of Olowokandis,Darkos,Kwames,Odens and the like drafted very high. It's conceivable that the probability for a team to draft a great player within 5 years is the same as an average team drafting 15-18 and as a lottery team who needs to both do well at the lottery AND have luck in the draft.

If you want a draft pick trade for one before the draft there is no need to sacrifice the season and diminish the players value by performing poorly on purpose.

You aren't sure a team that doesn't have Elton Brand, Andre Iguodala or Chris Kaman is going to lose that many games

Jrue Holiday
Jodie Meeks
Evan Turner
Thaddeus Young
Spencer Hawes

That's the sixers 'best' starting five after my trade proposals go though.

You don't think that's a team that's in the lottery?

That team defends worse than the warriors, but can't score as well

First of all they will get something for Iguodala and Brand, it's unlikely they will only get draft picks in return.

They are a 30-32 win team without Iguodala and Brand. Good enough for 10-12 place in the draft. That's worse than being in the playoffs and drafting in the late teens imo (which means you also have additional assets in Bran and Iguodala)

You're wrong that they're a 30-32 win team (in an 82 game season) without brand and Iguodala. You over value the talents of what's on the roster and under value Brand and Iguodala if you thik that's true.

As for the rest of it, if you bothered to read what MY trade idea, you'd know exaclty what they got back for Iguodala, and what they did with brand

I v

Damn phone.

Well this is getting complicated

Sources told ESPN.com that the most active proposal discussed by the teams would send Portland Trail Blazers swingman Gerald Wallace to the Magic along with Nets center Brook Lopez as two of the main pieces Orlando would receive in exchange for Howard.
As part of such a trade, which could be expanded to include a fourth team, sources say Orlando would also shed the long-term contracts of Hedo Turkoglu and Chris Duhon -- both absorbed by New Jersey -- while also potentially receiving future draft considerations.

And yet, with the teams involved, still don't see any reason for the sixers to get involved as a facilitator

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raro reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 10:55
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This three or four team trade only makes sense from the Nets perspective. Not sure why Portland or Orlando would make this trade?

I'm not sure why a lot of people do a lot of things

The Lakers gave Lamar Odom to the team that beat them in the playoffs last season

To save money?

The lakers are trying to save money? Seriously, if this is the Jim Buss plan, people don't have to wworry about the lakers any more

Is LA allowed to use that trade exemption again?

LA has two trade exceptions actually, not sure what they plan to do with them aside from saving money

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raro reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 11:17
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It's just funny to imagine a world where Billy King comes out on top of a multiple-team trade...

And the LO thing... incomprehensible.

That trade is awful for Orlando. I would rather trade him for Bynum. Or send him to Chicago for Joakhim.

Since he won't sign an extension with chicago, chicago wouldn't give that much. One year rental of Dwight ain't worth it.

All this 'the cba removed player leverage' is total BS. Players can always influence where they go just by saying 'I won't re-sign'. It's that simple...and you can't honestly eliminate that, you can only do what the NBA is doing with the Hornets, which if they follow through on it, screws the franchise anyway.

Seriously - if yo're a potential NBA owners, and you see what is happening RIGHT AFTER they signed their new CBA, why would you get involved in such a fracked up business?

I'd find some partners and buy an NFL team.

I can't imagine Dwight not signing an extension with Chicago or LA. Why wouldn't he? Where else would he go- New Jersey? To have a better shot at winning? To make more money? Signing with NJ doesn't solve any of these problems.

All reports indicate dwight howard has indicated there are four teams he would sign an extension with and Chicago isn't one of them...I'm not sure why that's o hard to understand

He would have no excuse to leave Chicago or LA. No other team can give him a better chance to win and more money. Doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry that you think 'personal choice' has no say in what a player wants to do.

Dwight Howard doesn't want to play for the Chicago BUlls (according to all reports) long term...your assertion that that shouldn't matter is foolish

I don't care what some report says. If I were Chicago, I would trade for Dwight. They would be better than Miami, Atlanta, Boston or New York. If Dwight wants to leave- let him. He can take less money to go elsewhere and play with a team that is not as talented. It's a risk that I would be willing to take.

Chicago was better than most of those teams last year

I'm reading a lot of "we can't give this up for rental," and as a guy who watches every game, I get that logic. But at a certain point, you have to wonder what you're holding on to. Not in terms of the players themselves, I think Jrue has a shot to be great, but in terms of the larger picture. I mean, saying a .500 team can't give up any player to get a legit superstar is silly. It's like we can't give up a team with a ceiling of maybe 50 wins for a shot at a team with a floor of 50 wins.

Right now, the only reason the Nets are players for Howard is because they rented Deron Williams. The only reason the Clippers are in the conversation for CP3 is because they have Blake Griffin. If you want someone to start taking the Sixers seriously, it's probably not going to happen until you have one superstar already in place, one way or another.

You can't get two superstars until you have one, and if the Sixers have Dwight Howard in Philly, off a trip deep into the playoffs, with their amnesty clause still in tact next summer, getting Deron Williams to come to Philly on a max deal is going to be a lot easier than standing pat and trying to get Dwight Howard to come to Philly to join Jrue, Iguodala and Brand.

Take the shot. If it doesn't work out, and you've gutted your roster, then you can go about rebuilding the right way, w/out half measures.

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 11:16
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The Clippers drafted Blake Griffin; the Nets are players for Howard both because they rented Williams and because they're about to go play in Brooklyn. Also because they have an owner who's all about spending money.

There's risk, and then there's calculated risk. if Dwight Howard makes it clear there's a zero percent chance he's going to re-sign in Philadlephia, then trading for him and giving up any asset is asinine. Plain and Simple. This whole 'get dwight' thing seems hinged on the fact that Dwight would change his mind and sign long term.

All reports indicate he won't re-sign with Chicago, which has a better basketball history (recently) and more talent (even after trading for Dwight) than the sixers would have.

Orlando doesn't care if he's going to re-sign or not - that's not their problem, they're going to ask for what they're going to ask for

And ANY trade with Orlando that doesn't start with Jrue Holiday, Otis Smith should hang up the phone.

Any team that trades for Dwight Howard is going to have to trade one of their best young assets

The sixers only have one (to me) valuable young asset at this point, you can't get him without giving up Jrue

If you give up the farm to get Howard, say Jrue, Turner, Lou, Nocioni, Speights and a couple of #1 picks, then next summer you have $42M committed to Brand, Iguodala, Thad and the Voose. If you amnesty Brand, that gets you down to $24M for just Iguodala, Thad and the Voose. Then you go to work on Williams and Howard in tandem. You get a max offer out to Williams and you start talking to Dwight about not opting out, but signing an extension to play with Deron, in Philly. You can get both of those guys in Philly, under the cap, with Iguodala still in place. Then you fill the rest of the roster out.

Ignoring all evidence to the contrary, you're pinning your plan on hopes and dreams and all reported evidence from various sources just being 100% wrong.

Numerous sources report Dwight has made it very clear where he's interested in signing long term - and you think he's going to change his mind - not to mention his whole 'give me a say in building the roster' thing is just concerning for a lot of reasons

No, what I'm saying is that I'd make the gamble, because what's the worst-case scenario? A true rebuild. Which might be the smartest decision right now anyway. At least if they go this route, they're taking a shot at greatness on the way. And if it fails, which it probably would, then say bon voyage to Thorn, get a smart, young GM in there and rebuild through the draft with gobs of cap space.

A true rebuild that cost you your best rebuilding asset on the court (Jrue) for a one year rental.

To me that's dumber than trying for lottery luck with two lottery picks in the 2012 draft

And PS - Orlando when they dump howard is looking to shed long term crap too - so how do the sixers help out with that and still not have to deal with the contracts of hedo (or duhon) themselves?

Hedo is a non-starter, still works w/ Duhon.

And truth be told, if Jrue pans out, i'd say there's about a 50% chance he'll re-sign here anyway at this point.

Meaning if we trade away Iguodala and Brand to get two questionable lottery picks next year, and Jrue spends the next two years playing for a shit team, he's gone as soon as he can get out of here unless they hit an absolute home run in one of those drafts.

In your plan the sixers are left with nothing, no draft picks, no jrue, and no stars...which to me is even worse.

And Jrue can't go anywhere any time soon unless he wants to forfit a lot of money - putting him in the same 'he's gone in a year' category is ignoring the facts.

Your Option - No Jrue - No picks (cause you're giving at least one up to get Dwight, can't on it) - Lots of cap room

My Option - Jrue - 2 lottery picks in the 2012 draft lots of cap room

Sorry, but I'd rather have Jrue and 2 lottery picks and lots of cap room than just lots of cap room.

I think there's a zero percent chance Dwight Howard stays in Philadlephia - unless you can make the deal without trading Iguodala and Jrue - can yo ucome up with a trade that hte magic would consider that didn't give up the sixers two best players? I bet you can't.

I'm not sure why you think NOTHING and cap room is better than Jrue, 2 lottery picks and cap room

Cause that's the difference

I find it more palatable to take a shot with a superstar for a year, then have a shot to build a true contender than I do to make a trade that's going to net you a decent lottery pick (probably in minny) and a pick in the teens (probably for the Sixers). And creating a team that isn't going to attract anything w/ the cap space. Your method guarantees a year of bad basketball this year, but probably not bad enough to mean anything in the draft, and it also guarantees guys like Paul, Howard and Williams will never play in Philly. I'd rather take the shot, no matter how long the odds are, and rebuild from scratch than do a half-assed rebuild on the fly, which is pretty much what your plan is.

And the picks I would include would be an unprotected pick next summer, and then a pick with heavy protection in 2014. Lottery-protected in 2014, then top five, then top three. So if Howard walks, we'd have two lottery picks in 2013/2014 and that pick would still be protected for two more years if the team's rebuild took longer.

I'm also not a big fan of facilitating the creation of even more teams I can't compete with.

And that's where we disagree

'taking a shot' for one year with no shot to re-sign is fool hardy, it's pennywise, pound foolish, it's whatever metaphor you want to make

And I believe that by getting Dwight Howard the sixers would then have no shot to re-sign him

So getting him is pointless because you wouldn't be good enough to win the east in that one season nor would you ahve a shot at keeping him

And my trade idea put Dwight Howard in the west, so competing with the clippers only really matters if both teams make the finals.

You're the one who thinks Griffin is over rated, putting him in orlando shouldn't scare you

You say no shot, I say let's see what happens when he says he won't re-sign, and I say "OK, you aren't getting that extra $40M then, oh and by the way, we've got a deal in place to get D. Williams if you stay here."

Well, since I believe there's zero chance of the sixers getting Howard, we'll humor your delusion as possible then :)

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 12:16
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And then NJ will tell Deron- "OK, you aren't getting that extra $40M then, oh and by the way, we've got a deal in place to get D. Howard if you stay here." :)

And I didn't realize your trade had Griffin going to ORL for Dwight. That's never going to happen. No way Sterling gives up a perceived superstar on his rookie contract.

Well - this was even before Sterling went after Chris Paul (though he can't get Paul in my scenario - nor does he need him) - It is based on the perception that some believe Donald Sterling would love to knock the Lakers off their perch and take over LA - and this would do it

Sixers Get Kaman - wolves draft pick in 2012 (possibly the clippers)
Magic get Blake Griffin
Clippers got Howard and Iguodala

I have no idea how the numbers work under the new cba - and after they claimed Chauncey it's probably a snowball now.

Afterwards, the sixers amnesty brand and waive kaman

Hence, they're a lottery team, with two picks in 2012, they keep their good young players and establish cap room.

It was a pipe dream - but to me it made more sense than getting howard to philadelphia because while Howard said 'lakers' - LA is LA and on the clippers - there are no shaq comparisons to deal with

Then again, there are clipper fans who think that trading griffin for howard straight up is a bad trade - so - you know - let them be stuck with the dream that 'in the future' they'll be good

I find it a perfect example of fans over valuing their own assets - not worrying about salary

Maybe Blake Griffin gets better - whereas Dwight Howard is the best in the game right now - in his mid 20s - without a serious injury for his career (I think, right?)

If he signs an extension - and they add Iguodala - hell maybe chris paul walks ther ein free agency :)

Let me just say, I don't think you're idea NOR my idea have a snowballs chance in the UAE of happening, but I just think that facilitating, not obtaining, the Howard trade is the only way for the sixers to have any way to keep their only valuable young asset and add some more assets. In your scenario they're done with nothing in mine they still have jrue and a couple lottery picks

I still don't think that's enough. If Orlando wants us to take Hedo's contract and give them Igoudala, I would never do it.

On the flip side, would you trade Jrue for Chris Paul? We would gamble on Orlando not trading Dwight in the middle of the season. Playing with Chris Paul and Iguodala is more attractive than playing with Deron Williams IMO.

On the flip side, would you trade Jrue for Chris Paul?

As the song goes, hell to the yes (ok it doesn't, but still)

But the hornets wouldn't do such a deal.

Look at what they REFUSED from the clippers - can the sixers match that kind of 'asset' based trade

Expiring contract, two rookies on solid deals, and the wolves first round draft pick

And that wasn't enough

Yeah, I'd do it, and I'd take Okafor back as well. The package was something like this.

Two things

A. Do you think that's a better deal than either the rejected Clippers or Lakers deal?

B. Wait, who is Dwayne Jones :)

I don't know who he is, or why he's listed on their roster by ESPN, but he's a minimum contract guy, so he made the numbers work.

I don't know what the reject Clippers deal was. Last I heard, the Clips wouldn't include Gordon or the pick. If it was both Gordon and the pick, that's probably a better package than this one. If it was one or the other, I'd take this package. It's a ton of cap relief, plus Jrue and Turner, plus you're taking Okafor off their books.

Supposedly the deal hedeged (I don't know why) on bledsoe

The last reported value was

Kaman (expiring contract) Aminu, Gordon, the Wolves #1 pick in 2012

And that wasn't enough for the clippers - they wanted bledsoe also

Accurate or not, evan turners perceived value is probably less than Aminu's right now, If you argue that Jrue & Gordon have the same (perceived) value the clippers deal is cleaner

1. More expiring cap
2. All rookie deals
3. Possibly (probably) a top 5 lottery pick
4. Not Louis Williams - i mean they're hot after willie green don't you know

I find it shocking that a team with only 7 players under contract less than two weeks before the season starts waived one of them today :)

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 12:31
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Yeah, I wouldn't do this. I guess you're thinking there's a good chance he'll resign with whichever team he's traded to so he can make more money. Also you think he could win here. I don't really think so, I don't think the money matters too much to him, and I think he also has preferences, geographically, about where he'd like to play that don't include us. Very good chance we just end up without our best player. I guess if it fails you can trade everyone and do a rebuild, but you'd miss out on getting anything good in the 2012 draft so it would be a while before things turned around.

That team could win the East, imo. It's a moot point, anyway because (a) it'll never happen and (b) I don't think the math works under the new CBA. This would put the Sixers over the tax level for this year, which I think minimizes how much extra money you can take back in a deal.

Didn't they raise the trade 'money back' from 125% to 150% though?

Only if the trade doesn't push you over the tax. That's the distinction here.

Stupid new CBA - why isn't it online yet :)

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 13:25
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Why is it that Paul would win the East when LeBron, a better player, plays with much better teammates, and when Rose, our "MVP," plays with the league's best defense? Why is that team so much better than Paul's best Hornets team? It has less scoring than those teams, a lot less actually, and better defense, but probably not top 2 or 3 in the league defense. I mean, maybe Okafor solidifies everything, I guess that's what you're assuming.

and I'll believe a guy doesn't care about money when someone actually turns down $40M to leave a team. Hasn't happened yet.

But Cliff Lee turned down money
Supposedly so did Albert Pujols

Didn't Bosh, Lebron and Wade take less than the max deal to make it work in Miami?

Taking less than the max in year one, but still getting the max yearly increase and six years isn't the same thing. Those guys didn't take nearly the financial hit that it would take to opt for a max offer from a different team and the bird rights max offer.

But they took less money

Did they turn down 40 mil - no - but they took less than they could earn by staying to play in Miami.

Doesn't mean Howard would take 40 mil less - but it's a helluva risk to gut your team and leave yourself with nothing afterwards

Hey, look, people who said the NBA is allowed to collude were probably wrong.

The NBA’s labor deal has an anti-collusion clause that prohibits teams from conspiring with the league to influence contracts, signings or transactions.

And thus Chris Paul will try to sue the NBA if they don't get a trade done, and win or lose, it's yet another black eye for the black and blue league

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 12:27
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It's not so simple, however, because each team owns, as I understand it, a share of the Hornets. Hence, the league will argue, no collusion, just discussions between co-owners about what to do with the team they own. Of course, there may not even have been collusion here. If Danny Ainge calls Kevin McHale and says, "hey Kevin, as a friend, could you not trade Player X to the Heat," I'm not so sure that's collusion. If the teams make a pact to never deal players to the Heat, that's collusion.

"Hey Kevin, how about taking one for the team and giving us Garnett for nothing?"

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 13:21
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Obviously I had that example with that in mind. I don't really see Al Jefferson as nothing, though he did turn out to be a below-average player. But that wasn't clear at the time.

Seems like the poll should have a 'Continuity With Caveat' option.

My caveat would be to have traded any plauers not named Iguodala, Brand, or Holiday for a decent Center.

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Stan reply to will on Dec 14 at 12:03
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But there aren't any decent centers on the market.

Nene was a decent center on the market
so was deandre jordan
so was marc gasol

All better than the motley crew the sixers have

Anyone see this on grantland...

I moved to Philadelphia from the UK in July. I have had to learn about the Phillies, the Flyers and the Eagles. I am getting tired (and still don't know what a cornerback is). Can you tell me all I need to know about the 76-ers in a paragraph? Or less.

— James P.

Here's what I know about the Sixers, based on a visit to their arena last season: Their PA announcer was even more like a bad wedding DJ than most PA announcers typically are, and their mascot was a nightmare-fuel bunny rabbit named "Hip Hop" with huge furry biceps and a do-rag who taught me what the bad kind of tripping feels like. Both of these team employees have been ousted in the offseason, however. (You can read Grantland's take on the new mascots here; I just went and voted for the dog on the strength of his pantsless trench coat flasher look.) So I turned to Grantland's resident Sixers fan-4-life Chris Ryan for some better answers. Here's what he had to say:

James! Welcome to the City of Brotherly Love. So, the Sixers. Here's the deal: Philly is a great, great hoops town. From Sonny Hill League, high schools like Simon Gratz (Rasheed Wallace's alma mater) and the incredible (if not what it used to be) Big 5 college rivalries. 10 years ago the Sixers were the crown jewel of this hoops heaven and Allen Iverson was the king. We've never really gotten over his departure/fall from grace. I know the T.G.I. Friday's on City Line Avenue and the Palmer Social Club have definitely not recovered, economically or otherwise. But the Sixers have a young, fun team right now who will be just good enough to not get a good draft pick. Here's your primer: Jrue Holiday is awesome, Andre Iguodala wants to be elsewhere, and Evan Turner's favorite movie is The Notebook. See you at the Wells Fargo Center, mate.

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Stan reply to Johnny on Dec 14 at 12:10
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Unfortunately these guys forgot that this guy is a foreigner. He will have no idea what these guys are talking about.

Let's say Chris Paul doesn't get traded and tests the free agency market. Where would he go? There are 3 teams out there that would be a possible contender with Chris Paul AND has the cap space to sign him. OKC if they use the amnesty clause on Kendrick Perkins, the Clippers, and the Mavericks if they amnesty Shawn Marion.

I would be willing to trade Jrue, Thad, and Turner for Chris Paul. It's worth the risk. Deron signs with Dallas and Dwight comes to Philly to play with Andre and CP3.

Dallas

And three reasons why

1. He gets to play for the best NBA owners
2. Due to state income tax laws in Texas, he can make slightly more money than most places
3. Dirks career is extended and he gets to play with Dwight Howard

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 12:59
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How would get to play with Howard and Dirk? If Dallas uses the amnesty clause they'll still be committed to 33 million in salary.

Not sure about the logistics, but Dallas is on Howards list, I bet Chris Paul wouldn't mind playing in Texas, and I don't put anything past Cuban...Lamar Odom fell into their lap - but they're creating cap room and trade exceptions for a reason

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 13:08
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What is his 4 team wish list?

Dallas
lakers
Nets
Magic (which i don't think he really wants but he's trying not to look like a bad guy)

Pretty sure we can't trade Thad.

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 12:49
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In 60 days. At the trade deadline, hopefully when Orlando decides to keep Howard.

Yahoo (Woj) is reporting that Orlando has ended all Dwight Howard trade discussion, so this is going to go well for Otis Smith.

On the plus side for Orlando Fans - when he messes this up - he should finally be fired

No, he should be made to be GM of the team Orl is left with. Why should someone have to come in and clean up his trash.

BTW, the reverse Kemp?:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Kendrick-Perkins-drops-32-pounds-bucking-the-lo?urn=nba-wp11788

BTW, he looked more normal carrying the extra weight. Now he looks like he's got some Sam Cassell alien in him.

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Stan reply to tk76 on Dec 14 at 14:50
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Shaq was at his prime when he was hovering near morbid obesity.

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Stan reply to tk76 on Dec 14 at 14:49
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wow. The guy looks like a drug addict compared to his old photo.

No paychecks meant no money for food?

Here's a question for you, if the Sixers did get CP3 and he elevated them to maybe a #3 seed in the East, but only averaged 15ppg, do you think the fans would turn on him?

Nope - cause WINZ

#3 seed, lose in the second round to Boston. If something like that happened two years in a row, all we'd hear about is how he doesn't score enough. Get rid of him.

Will they ever turn on Jrue? he does not have the type of personality that people turn on...

Yes, when he's no longer on a rookie Salary

I believe this town will turn on anyone who makes more than $10M/year and doesn't score 20+ PPG, unless the team is really winning.

It's more about the salary than the play though - which is what drives me nutty.

The expectation that a players game will suddenly change once he makes more money - like it's a direct relationship - baffles me

Thadeeus Young is the next target of course

Nah, Thad's in a safe area, contract-wise.

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 14:59
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No. He's not making 10+ million. Reggie Evans, Aaron McKie and Eric Snow made around 6 million and people loved them

Yeah - but they were scrappy and blue collar

Thaddeus Young is a first round draft pick - he'll get hate - but only if Iguodala is gone - one player at a time - the WIP crew can't handle multiple thoughts

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 14:57
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True. Best fans in the world my ass

Who in gods name said they're the best fans in the world?

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 14:59
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WIP, sorry.

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 15:19
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No, I think you just feel that way because Iguodala was oversold to the fans and fans, reasonably, have been disappointed in what he amounted to be. Fans would love Chris Paul. They might like Iguodala if he were paid third scorer money and had never been ballyhooed as a franchise talent. I don't remember people complaining about Mutombo not having an offensive game.

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Stan reply to Tray on Dec 14 at 15:22
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But they were a winning team in 2001

Um, when has Iguodala ever been oversold by the franchise? He really hasn't been sold at all. And he is payed as the second or third best player on a team.

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 15:29
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Iguodala was given 80 million when people thought he was worth around 50-66 million. Wasn't Iverson's first contract was worth 76 million? People think Iguodala is getting superstar money.

That's how much he was making, not how he was marketed, or what was promised. And you're comparing guys salaries what, 7 years apart? Under different CBA's.

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 15:40
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I know, but that's the perception people had. People hear 80 million and they immediately thought it was a superstar contract.

The problem then isn't the contract - it's the people - being stupid

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Sharone Wright reply to Stan on Dec 14 at 15:43
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I think people are more tired of him being our best offensive option, especially at the end of games, when he really should not be asked to do that. When he fails in that spot more often than not, he gets booed. Really unfair to him. The boos should be directed to the front office for not getting better options.

How is that his fault - he does what the coach asks him to do - maybe better coaching would realize where his strengths and weaknesses lie dthen?

The 3 seed is SUPPOSED to lose in the second round though

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 14:45
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No, they would turn on Iguodala from taking away his shots.

Actually, I don't think they would. Philly 'hater' fans are simple - they just pick one guy - if the hate moved to Paul they might appreciate Iguodala more

How many do Santa Barbara 'haters' pick?

My dislike of players is hardly ever based on their salary, usually it's more based on their 'natural ability' versus their development of it

Mareese Speights
Sam Dalembert

I must admit I did hate willie green, which wasn't entirely his fault...

So much mediocre talent moving through here since 2001 that the franchise wanted to sell as 'winning' talent - it's disappointing

It should be stated that I was pro bobby abreu and pat burrell while most standard phillies fans hated them both (until of course the world series and pat left and then everyone seemed to love him)

Agree, majority of pro salaries are wacky, hard to discriminate on that basis - except when it's served on a silver platter.

I have more tolerance for underperformance of Marreese (organic) than Sam (synthetic).

Willie might not have been the object of your hate if he'd avoided the early knee injury. Lost a little bit of his athleticism there. True to his nature - worked hard, prayed, sustained a career.

I still like Bobby Abreu, a genuine hitter, if not a lover of warning tracks and walls. But I feel kinda sorry for Pat Burrell's bulldog.

OH - I hated Willie Green long before his long term deal :)

I disliked him on his rookie deal - it wasn't about money.

I think Mo Speights and Sam Dalembert both show no desire to get better at basketball - be it organic or synthetic (not sure what you mean by that) both could be better - and Speights I believe has more upside just because he has much more 'natural' basketball skill than Sam, sam has freak athleticism

And Willie picked up your vibe. That's why he usually shot poorly @LA, @SF & @SAC.

Organic, of nature. Synthetic, man-made/artificial.

Speights can shoot better than many. Was hoping he'd get into great shape someday, expand his game. Unfortunately, I don't think he's got any buttons to push.

Sam. He was, whatever that was.

Well I know what organic and synthetic mean in principle - but didn't get the comparison and I disagree that sam was what he was - he could have gotten better

Simply put, Sam fronts. I don't take him seriously. He can run and jump though when motivated.

This picture of Nocioni is just ridiculous:

https://twitter.com/#!/Sixers/status/147045900726964226/photo/1

I thought we were supposed to buy him out?

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Stan reply to Scott on Dec 14 at 15:16
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Why would anyone want to buy him out and get rid of him

Ken Berger says that the stupid Glen Davis/Brandon Bass trade was Howard's idea. Berger also says that Howard is upset with the Arenas amnesty, and that he supported Arenas's coming in the first place. Sure wish we could have an amateur GM like that on our team, cooking up brilliant trades and then threatening to leave if we only do some of what he suggests.

Should we take a look at the moves GM LeBron forced in Cleveland?

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 15:28
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We should, I haven't heard of them. Was refusing to give up J.J. for Amare his idea? I guess on Blake's tab, you can already count the oversized contract to DeAndre. Though if they didn't match they wouldn't have any center.

Question for the advanced stats guys here: Is a Moneyball-like strategy feasible in the NBA? In other words: 1. are there advanced metrics that are better at predicting victory than PPG, and 2. if you had the cap flexibility (a big if), do you think building a team around this model could be successful?

Probably not possible to do it on the cheap in basketball like the A's did in baseball, simply because the true superstars are just head and shoulders ahead of everyone else by advanced metrics, and they account for such a high percentage of a team's minutes.

The teams that use moneyball-like metrics are the teams that don't overpay for guys like Carmelo Anthony and Monta Ellis. It's almost more about devaluing players who the media hypes up than finding diamonds in the rough, at this point.

Ask Morey.

1. Yes there are

Look to the rockets for an example of the money ball approach to the NBA - it doesn't seem to work - it's not built that way (brian is right)

Hell, besides, it doesn't even work in baseball any more. The principle of moneyball wasn't a specific metric per se but 'undervalued skills' (getting on base, walks as good as a hit was always the mantra but good hitters were judged purely on batting average which ignores walks). (And it wasn't billy beanes idea by the way, just saying, he gets the credit, but wasn't his). Problem is - the A's are back to being non competitive again because the league caught up AND the A's second foray into the 'under valued' (defense I believe it was) fell flat on its face.

While not every team uses advanced metrics *cough* PHillies/Dallas Green *cough* as much as everyone else, most teams in most sports now have better statistical tools and pay more attention. The 'moneyball thing' worked for a short period of time because of the right time right place thing, but there was no secret to it and if someone figured something out in the NBA they'd then have everyone else noticing :)

Like I said, Morey is considered the 'money ball' guy in the NBA, and he still won't win a title unlees he gets lucky with a draft pick or two

Out of curiousitym, what would you say are the undervalued skills in the NBA (and to make it challenging, please respond without the use of the word Iguodala.)

I'm not smart enough to answer that question personally, I think defense is undervalued but also one of the most difficult things to evaluate in basketball.

Baseball may be a team game but it's individual events, occurring at most between 3 people (if you want to include the catcher) - the first basemans positioning doesn't affect the batter swinging or missing, it's easy to isolate a specific player, or a specific event in baseball so much easier than basketball (yet another reason certain advanced metrics ideas don't work in basketball). I mean per is considered 'advanced' metrics and it's really just a compliation of various box score numbers with mathematical modifiers, in the end it's a conglomeration of the box score numbers.

The ability to set a pick in the pick and roll - to take a charge - to box out a player so someone else on your team grabs the rebound

One thing I always posited was that 'blocks' were not evaluated correctly - they should be parsed based on who ends up with the ball after the block - and there was a presentation at the MIT Sloan conference last year about blocked shots and their value - and I can't get a copy of the damn paper - hell even the presenter won't provide me with one.

Here's a video of Iguodala working out. Wish I had two spotters when I was doing incline press w/ dumbbells.

http://mindofai9.tumblr.com/post/14226546548/workout

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 16:51
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Iggy doing his best Uncle Rico from Napoleon Dynamite impression...

why would he film himself doing this

No idea why he did it, but I love shit like this. Seeing what guys who are essentially paid to work out do in the gym. Programs set up by professionals (you would think).

I'd pay to see home video of Hawes doing that p90x workout. that would be hilarious.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 18:00
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P90X...Hawes? thinking more like xbox 360

I'm actually kind of shocked such a high percentage of voters were in favor of the continuity route.

I'm not

Hey

Someone do me a favor - type espn.com into your browser and tell me if you're redirected to google.com?

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 16:49
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No. lol, were you trolling ESPN?

I read espn because there are very few good all encompassing sports web sites out there, you have to know what to pick and choose to read - and now it's gone - weird

Sounds like you got banned. When I ban people, I automatically redirect to bleacher report or spamlaws.com now. It's probably done by cookie or IP address, try dropping ESPN cookies, if that doesn't work, try from another IP address.

Doubt it, I don't make comments on ESPN at all, it just went away after 5 minutes, no changes from me...

As for your comment above 'paid to work out' - that is where that work ethic thing comes on - think Speights spends a lot of time in the gym?

Funny, I though posters who got banner here actually became the writers at Bleacher report.

Will Friday's game be on league pass?

I don't believe scrimmages are on league pass, just regular season games

Thanks

And you reminded me I have to make my 'early bird' pay to cox cable to get the discount (if they have it this year)

I vote for continuity. Our young guys (including lou) should get better. Apparently some of the flaws in Dre's game can be attributed to injury. We are moving in the right direction. Our young we have contracts coming off of the books in two years that may allow us pick up a star in free agency. I just wish that we picked up a big who could block shots and rebound.

Cooney on Twitter:

@BobCooney76
Bob Cooney
Listening again to doug Collins speak after practice, it seems that Jodie Meeks certainly is the starter now over Evan Turner


Does this worry anyone else? I like Meeks, but if Turner can't beat him out, it will be hard for him to make the "leap" with limited minutes off the bench. And we really need Turner to break out this year.
Is DC just using this as motivation, or does he really think ET isn't good enough to beat out Meeks?

I'm not worried because I am not surprised.

ET can be the better player, but that does not mean that team plays plays better when he stars. It might be the case against a team like the Heat, but most opponents are not the Heat. Also, Meeks is the same age as ET, so he very well could have upped his game some this year. And if he is developing into a killer specialist at SG then he might be hard to unseat.

Maybe it does not bother me so much because i no longer have sky high expectations for ET. IMO his best future is as a killer 6th man who backs up all 3 backcourt positions and abuses mismatches against second team defenses.

It doesn't worry me, it aggravates me, Collins made a quick hook

and today (read Tom Moores twitter) collins was riding EVERYONE, I don't think he gave turner a fair shot and had decided before camp started that it was Meeks and giving Turner a chance was just 'for show'

Let's not forget (I believe) Collins didn't want Turner - right?

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Dwight reply to Rick on Dec 14 at 18:47
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What people seem to forget is that Meeks becoming the starter over Turner is what turned around our team after a 3-13 start.

Meeks simply fits in the offense better. He's a better spot-up shooter and he's much better at getting open off-ball.

Turner would be a better fit in the Iguodala role, which is a defensive stopper, isolation scorer on offense, and leader on fast breaks.

Also, you may have games where Turner plays most of the 4th quarter. As Doug Collins says, "The five starters aren't necessarily the five best guys on the team."

And how great was it to watch the sixers lose in the first round
again
while limiting the development of a guy who is supposed to be part of the futre
and it'll be awesome to do it again this year too

OH BOY CONTINUITY

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Dwight reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 18:51
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The Sixers wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs last year if they started Evan Turner.

Sometimes the best way to develop a player is to have him come off the bench at the beginning of their career.

You make it sound like a guaranteed first round playoff is a success...whoopee dee - same damn thing 3 of the past 4 years - but the sixers are headed up town right?

The best way to develop a player who has to learn how to play a different game with Jrue and Iguodala is to PLAY HIM

Wins and Losses be damned, I don't give a damn if they make or miss the playoffs I care if players that matter and are going to help this team contend as a serious player ni the NBA get better - and Meeks ain't one of those players.

Turner worked a lot on his game this off season - worked to change his shot - and basically collins quickly pulled the plug on it - so any confidence Turner might have had in all the work he did to change his game immediately vanishes cause Collins is a short sighted douchebag

But see - this is why i'm not surprised most people chose continuity - they see last year as a positive step forward because they can't remember anything before Eddie Jordan

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Dwight reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 19:04
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The best way to develop a player is to play them in situations where they are far more likely to succeed. And for Turner that means coming off the bench and playing against other team's bench players. Collins would only be a douchebag if he started Turner and ruined his confidence as he would struggle against other team's starters. The fact that he has him coming off the bench shows that he cares about his well-being for the future.

And Meeks isn't one of those players? The man was one of the greatest players in the history of Kentucky basketball, one of the greatest college basketball programs. He got underrated in the draft because of his height, but like so many other 2nd round shooting guard draft steals he rose above it. He's clearly one of the hardest workers, if not the hardest worker on the team. As a high school prospect he was considered "an athletic swingman who needed to work on his outside shot." And now in the NBA, he's become the best shooter on our team. That shows how far he's come.

The Sixers are in prime position to become a contender in the NBA. Players are talking about taking that next step as a major contender in the East. They have the confidence and they will only continue to improve, unlike the Sixers of the mid 2000's who were too old to improve.

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jsmoove reply to Dwight on Dec 15 at 12:44
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Such a truthful and logical post that can hopefully squash all the senseless speculation and hype. Spoken like a tenured and experienced coach. Thanks.

The Sixers are Shepherd's Pie. Fans salivate for Filet Mignon. Unfortunately, it's impossible to turn lamb and mutton, mashed potatoes and corn into a choice cut of beef. Would you care to look at the dessert cart?

Not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said but I am all for continuity. Sometimes it seems like there hasn't been any major improvement because we haven't made it out of the first round, but the core group is all either in their prime or approaching it. If either Jrue or ET take the next step to becoming an All-Star caliber guy, we're in good shape. If they both do, then we're in great shape.

Assume that Jrue is a 20 and 8 guy when the contracts of Iggy and Brand come off the books and Turner is a very solid, all around 15 7 and 4 type of player, similar to what Iguodala does but a little more offensive oriented. Then, the combination of those two and a good supporting cast could be enough to convince a superstar to come to Philadelphia.

I say the only option is to continue to let the young guys play and see if anyone is capable of becoming a star. Jrue certainly seems capable and Turner, despite an unimpressive rookie season, the jury is still out.

ShowYaLuv.

Stein reporting that Clippers agree 'in principle' to get chris paul

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Jason reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 19:13
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Good deal for NOH, Can't wait to see the mo williams, CP3, Billups lineup....

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Jason reply to Jason on Dec 14 at 19:14
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lol, Clips kept bledsoe? 4 Point guards lol.

Oh just waive mo williams for gods sake :)

This is the exact trade reported yesterday that folks said wasn't enough.

I think Stern relented because he wants to avoid the lawsuit, even if he does win, public opinion and perception is so against Stern and owners right now

I generally find that "folks" didn't say it wasn't enough, David Stern did.

paul to the clippers for aminu, gordon, kaman and the twolves pick.

That's a very good haul compared to that shit lakers trade that was on the table. I hope all the jack ass misguided journalists that were saying stern wouldn't trade paul as some tactic to prove the cba has changed things for the better, or whatever bs they were saying, will admit they were wrong. I'm not Stern's biggest fan but he did the right thing and demanded that they get the best possible deal for the hornets.

Also I hope owners and gm's take notes from stern and the nba on how to handle making trades like this.

Um

This is the exact same trade the Hornets (Stern) refused to make yesterday, demanding the clippers add more (Bledsoe)

Not sure how capitulating a day later makes Stern look good - I think the exact opposite - Stern has egg on his face and took a deal he turned down yesterday cause he was trying to avoid MORE public embarassment

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sooner reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 19:31
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The reports have been conflicting. I also heard the clippers were giving the hornets a choice between gordon and the twolves pick but would not give them both. Those were the only 2 pieces that really mattered in my eyes. Bledsoe would be nice but not a game changer. Gordon and the pick alone were better than the lakers trade offering that the nba passed on which caused almost every journalist to be up in arms.

Maybe bledsoe was what was hanging up the trade maybe not. The point is stern and the nba held out for an actual good trade for a superstar player unlike many other teams that have been in this position before.

Seriously, I was pro ownership in the lock out if i had to pick a side, but the league handled this FOR SHIT

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sooner reply to GoSixers on Dec 14 at 19:39
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How was this handled like shit? Was the trade bad? Or are you saying from a PR perspective it is was handled like shit?

If so blame the journalists for trying (and succeeding) at making something out of nothing. They spun it like he was going on some power trip and trying to show up the super stars of the league but they gave no logical reason for stern to do that. I'm really not a stern fan I don't actually know anyone who is but I found it absurd that so many professionals that cover the nba couldn't come to the most obvious and logical conclusion that stern refused the laker deal because it sucked and held out on the clipper deal until he got the most he could like any smart owner would do.

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Tray reply to sooner on Dec 14 at 20:26
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This is definitely the better deal but try finding anyone besides yourself who thinks that basketball reasons (or to be more specific, Hornets-related basketball reasons) were the reason for the veto.

Does it matter? Fact of the matter is that if this deal was out there for Paul, and obviously it was, then the Lakers deal absolutely should've been vetoed. There was never any doubt as to whether they were able to get a better package for Paul, Demps is just a lame duck nincompoop who jumped at an offer. He should be fired immediately.

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sooner reply to Tray on Dec 15 at 9:11
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I haven't heard any other logical or realistic reason besides that. What was the reason for making this trade in you opinion?

If nothing else, the fact that stern stepped in and got this package after Demps nearly quit because the best deal he could get was vetoed should mean Demps gets fired and never works in a front office again.

Oh silly clipper fans

many of them hate this trade

Got the best pure point in the game and they're unhappy

I'm going to laugh when minny finishes .500.

Although I'll laugh even harder if the Clips wind up trading away the overall number 1 pick two years in a row.

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 20:20
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What do you actually predict their results will be? I'm disappointed that I won't get to see a Paul-Gordon backcourt. Paul to Griffin and Jordan will be fun enough though, I guess.

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Johnnylaptop on Dec 14 at 19:44
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I voted for continuity, this team is built for speed and defense. I expect for the Sixers to continue where they left off last year in the playoffs. I truly believe Iggy will become an all star this year. Hawes is going into his second year with us, in much better shape, and I'm sure Collins is going to be up his ass about playing defense. A more consistent Hawes equals more wins for us. Evan Turner is the biggest question mark for this team. Collins needs to figure him out sooner than later.

Sixers should open 4-1 on their left coast swing now that NOH doesn't have CP3.

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 14 at 21:42
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Oh we would've beaten them anyway. 7 players under contract! I assume they're not resigning Carl Landry now. wonder who their starting five even is. Jack, and Emeka, and Ariza, and Gordon, and... who's the 4? Maybe they throw Aminu out there.

Is the loss to Golden State? Historically, the Sixers have had trouble there (losing 5 of the last 6), with more success in Portland.

If they really go 4-1 through the first five (meaning they would be playing pretty well), then something like 15-6 through the end of January is not out of the question. That would bring up memories of 00-01, when they rode the momentum of their 10-0 start to the best season in recent memory. But I'll believe it when I see it!

I'm going to be doing some testing on the article templates for the rest of the night, so things may seem a bit off. Everything will either return to normal in the morning, or we'll have a new comment experience. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks,

Brian

Test

Make this 2 column madness stop :)

Yeah, you're not going to be a fan. Hoping to have an option for the old layout at the click of a button, this is going to be better for wider screens.

Jrue Holiday "We have the mindset that we're the best team in the east right now"

At least now we know why Chris Sheridan got fired. He's apparently off his meds.

Can we get Stern as the Sixers new GM?

He did a tremendous job getting the right type of pakage in return for CP3. Especially considering he was working under heavy criticism and from a weak position.

Demps' trade is so much worse in comparison. It makes me want to go back and have Stern veto the AI trade :)

Seriously. Stern was vindicated and then some. Demps rightly sidelined, it seems like he didn't even calling the Clippers, because even their initial Aminu/Bledsoe/MIN pick was a better offer than the garbage from LAL/HOU.

Chris Broussard once again comes across as a buffoon, I remember the morning after Stern's initial veto Broussard was ranting about how Stern was screwing the Hornets and how the trade was so great for New Orleans. What an idiot.

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tk76 reply to stoned81 on Dec 14 at 23:38
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Well at least he is consistent as a defacto players mouthpiece.

Haha yes this is true. God I hate that guy. The number of times he's been wrong the past few weeks, none more glaring than "the season will be cancelled" 3 days before the settlement, it's off the charts. What is ESPN paying this guy for? Your average fan could provide more accurate analysis than this moron.

It's less about being an idiot, more about trying to win now to save a job. He couldn't give two you-know-what's about a draft pick that likely won't contribute to the team in 3 years when he'll be fired in 2.

I disagree. Granted I'm not an NBA owner, but this package that he did get looks to me like one of the best, wisest returns on a superstar ever. I would keep a GM who made that deal until he screwed up. That said, I would have fired Demps for trading away Collison, Thornton, and Bayless for old vets a long time ago.

He didn't get this package. Stern and co did. Laugh and bash as much as you want, but Stern did a hell of a job with this trade.

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Tray reply to Xsago on Dec 15 at 2:36
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You missed my point. Derek was saying that Demps... well I think Derek was confused because stoned81 called Broussard an idiot and he says that Demps isn't one, but I thought Derek was saying that Demps was trying to save his job with the Martin/Scola/Odom deal and that he would have lost his job had he made this kind of deal. And I'm saying, no, he wouldn't have.

I don't think Demps would lose his job for making this deal. I think Demps would lose his job if the Hornets, after making the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years, won 35 games each of the next two seasons while drawing 12,000 per night. And while the Clippers trade is infinitely better long term for the Clippers, I'm not sure it helps them win more in the next 2 years than the Lakers/Rockets one.

As fans without our jobs on the line, it's easy to sit here and have a 5 year plan. Unfortunately, most aren't given that kind of latitude from owners, and I can't really fault a guy who doesn't even know who his owner will be to expect to have that kind of timeline when they are bought. It's one of the biggest problems with the NBA in my opinion, actually.

I don't think Demps is an idiot. I think he had different goals than us as fans do.

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Tray reply to tk76 on Dec 15 at 2:30
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The odd thing about it is that Stu Jackson apparently did this deal. Stu Jackson, I understand, wasn't the greatest GM. I guess it's not rocket science.


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