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Doug's Second Year

Just don't forget that the slow start followed by well-over-.500 play is a hallmark of basically every post-Iverson Sixers season, and that the stretch of well-over-.500 play has never been proven to be an augur of a subsequent strong season. That said, yes, I expect improvement because I think Turner will play better than a d-league call-up this year (slight exaggeration but a fair enough characterization of long parts of his rookie season), and Jrue should make a pretty large step forward in season 3. Maybe slightly decreased production from Brand. And I could imagine Vucevic being a better rebounder than Hawes, at least.

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Mopey reply to Tray on Dec 15 at 6:07
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The every year slow start I think should be largely blamed on having a new head coach very year. People bring it up all the time as if its all the players fault.

Not only do they have a new coach almost each year, they also usually have a tough November - December schedule, mostly due to the Ice Capades west trip.

This year they have a chance to prove all the doubters wrong, because they don't have a new coach, they have continuity and their early schedule is not as difficult as in the past. If they fail to do so, there will be no more excuses and they should rebuild. If they manage to establish themselves as a top 4 team in the East, than maybe they have a chance to contend with a true C.

Interesting Meeks video interview at sixers.com. He says he doesn't expect to be the starting SG.

This goes in line with my belief that Turner will actually start but Meeks will play the majority of minutes with Holiday and Iguodala. And Turner will play with Lou and either Iguodala and Holiday for the most part.

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depressedfan247 on Dec 15 at 4:40
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what if collins was able (thru coaching, desire, team play and overall grittiness) get each player to live up to their potential. I'm not getting all gay and metacognitive, just saying what if he got each player who touched the floor every game to produce at least three points over their last season average? Would it make a difference in the Ws/Ls column? Would it be enough to compete into the playoffs? Could it make up for our lack of a scorer/star?

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bebopdeluxe on Dec 15 at 8:36
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The only two teams in the East that I view as no-doubt-about-it better than the Sixers are the Bulls and Heat. After those two, everybody else has question marks IMO...the Knicks need to mesh together (and who plays PG?), the Celtics will probably struggle at times with the compressed schedule, the Magic will have the Howard soap-opera to deal with, the Hawks are a similar no-superstar-type team who may-or-may-not take another step forward...

If we can get ANY kind of consistent play from our white 7-footers, home-court in the 1st round is certainly achievable.

Spencer Hawes & Nikola Vucevic: Connie Dierking & Dennis Awtrey ('70-'71); Mel Counts & Dale Schlueter ('72-'73), Mark McNamara & Tim McCormick ('86-'88), Shawn Bradley & Eric Leckner ('93-'94)... "Yaw Sevendee-Sixzuhzz caw 'time'!"

If only Big Todd and Matt G. could have played on the same team.

They did, Todd's first 2 seasons. But, lo, it didn't swing the balance of power.

Geiger just missed pairing with Montross - woulda been another monster tandem.

I really think the Tyson Chandler addition made NY a top 3 team in the east. Right now I would put them ahead of Boston, Orlando and Atlanta.

There are a 'top 2' in the East and a whole lot else.

Sure the Knicks added Tyson Chandler, but Toney Douglass?

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 10:43
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I really don't think Tony Douglas is going to prevent them from being a top 3 team. New York has a top 5-7 player at 3 different positions.

So you think the knicks are better than the celtics?

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 10:45
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Based on their starters, yes.

Ray Allen Kevin garnett Rajon Rondo Paul Pierce
Toney Douglas Carmelo Anthony Amare Stoudemire Tyson Chandler

And some insignificant fifth player

You think the knicks are clearly ahead of the celtics huh?

I think the Celtics are unlikely to hold up this year. But if they are healthy in the playoffs they will again be dangerous to a degree.

I agree that they're old, but talent for talent, they're better than the knicks when healthy :)

Celtics are one of those 'interesting to watch' teams this year due to the compacted season.

Be curios to see how it impacts the Mavs too

I'm not at my computer so can't check, but isn't Brand younger now than the big three were when they won the title?

Hmmm Brand is more or less the same age they were when they won the title. But even than they had already played far more games than Brand has now. Garnett now has 1200 games, Allen 1100 and Pierce 960, which suggests that Allen and Garnett were well over 800 at the time. Brand is at 800 at so far.

Yeah well, brand missed most of two entire seasons to injury or he'd be close to 1000 games by now.

Not sure if that's good or bad

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Stan reply to tk76 on Dec 15 at 15:05
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I didn't think they would last in 2010, but they ended up taking LA to 7 games in the finals. I think Boston was a better team than LA and Miami when they Kendrick Perkins.

In 2010 they didn't have back to backs to backs and had a lot more rest in the playoffs - there wer eno back to backs- this year they will be - and oh yeah - they're 2 years older with a lot more trade on their bodies

Add all of those advantages up, then consider that the Sixers started last year 3-13 before

And from late January through February they went 13-4

Which pretty much is as unlikely for this team, but when you add the two things together, you come up with a 500 team.

They weren't a .188 team, but they weren't a .765 team either

This will be an interesting season because there is such a big range in how the team will perform. Long term- not so interesting, but I am looking forward to this season.

There are a few teams the Sixers just can't hang with and will need a surprise to beat. Otherwise, they remain a team that can beat... or lose to... about 20 teams. A lot will come down to chemistry and whether they have a guy step up and be "star for the night."

Because of their lack of go to stars/scorers this team relies more on coaching/chemistry than most. For that reason I expect them to run hot and cold. The only consistency would be if they had great defense- and their frontcourt precludes that.

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bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Dec 15 at 13:31
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The unanswerable question - at least right now - is how much can this team improve over last year (getting back to Brian's post at the top). For me, there is a reasonably wide range of possibilities...from just being the team that they were for the last 66 games for the entire season...to getting a healthy Iggy and the Turner we saw in the playoffs...to material improvements from everybody. Right now it is hard to imagine that - excluding injuries - this team will not take a material step forward from the way they closed last season...which is why I believe that a top-4 finish is not only possible, but it will the basis for my expectations for this team and the standard to which I believe they should be held accountable.

Simply based on familiarity with DC's system and individual player growth, other than the Bulls and Heat, I think the Sixers should legitimately believe that they are as good as any other team in the East.

They didn't make any improvements and they have a huge gaping hole at center. I expect Iguodala and Turner to be better but I don't think that's enough to see them go up 3 spots in the East.

So you don't expect Holiday to be better?

I expect Holiday to be better.

I expect Iguodala to be Iguodala but healthy

I hope Turner is better, but Doug Collins has already decided he's probably not

I don't expect Brand to be as good as he was last year, but I can hope

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 14:19
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I think Holiday will be better as well, but not to the point that we become a top 4 team in the east.

To be a top 4 team in the east the sixers only have to be better than

Magic
Hawks
Knicks

I don't think it's likely either, but if all things fall the right way, the four seed isn't out of the realm of possibility

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bebopdeluxe reply to Stan on Dec 15 at 14:38
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I expect the center position to be better as well - hard for it to be a lot worse...Hawes seems to be in better shape, and since he got the message from the rest of the league that nobody was beating down the doors to give him a multiyear deal. it stands to assume that he will be a bit more motivated. I would also think that having somebody on the team who could potentially push him for minutes (read: NOT Mo Speezy), may push him to get his nose dirty a little.

Better Iggy
Better Holiday
Better Turner
Better white guy in the middle
More familiarity with what DC's dealing

I see more wins. How many will be determined by how quickly they come together and how quickly teams like the Celtics and Magic fall apart.

Will they get homecourt in the first round? I don't know...but I do not think it is ludicrous to think they can...after all is IS the Eastern Conference, after all.

I agree that almost all of that is possible (except for Hawes - he is what he is and no one wants him)


I still believe that people can't bring up 3-13 as an excuse without balancing it with 13-4 - which is equally unlikely to be repeated

The short training camp, wild offseason and condensed schedule will inevitably lead to some very sloppy basketball. That kind of setup should in theory favour the better defensive teams and the teams with better depth. I get the feeling that the Sixers are in a good spot cmopared to other teams. Can they utilize the opportunity we'll see, but the opportunity is there.

My hopes for the season are that Doug won't have too many injury issues. That will be the key to the season.

On the flip side, the Sixers have to be more of a well oiled machine to work with player filling their role. In a sloppy game it is easier to rely on the stars to carry the day.

You don't think stars can be sloppy? I actually think that some of the stars will have major issues this season. Especially on the offensive end.

I'm not sure he meant stars couldn't be sloppy, but in sloppy games, the stars tend to have more of an influence and take advantage of the slp better

Yeah, the point I'm making is that most teams can pencil in big production from 1 or 2 stars a night. While the Sixers both need someone to step into that role on a given night and to play well in their system. So I don't think they are as equipped to win if both teams are out of sync.

The Sixers have a bunch of singles hitters and no big sluggers who can carry you with a few swings of the bat.

But unfortunately, they lack great pitching (low scoring games), in that they lack the bigs to allow for a low scoring game. They basically have to grind out runs every night to win.

I like that analogy. Adapting to its aptness, how many wins does the line-up scratcher get 'em with his passion and his moxie? He's got some Durocher in him.

Dough is worth 10 wins for this team. They need a good coach more than most. If there wasn't already a "Pops" coaching in the NBA, it would be Doug's moniker.

So you're saying with a 'not eddie' jordan coach (mo cheeks, tony dileo) the sixers would have been 31-51 last year?

Sorry, not buying it

Maybe 10 wins is overstating it. But definitively worth a 10 game swing for this squad (so 5 wins.)\

An average coach with:

-20 year old mistake prone PG who is still on the learning curve
-22 year old rookie who is about the least efficient wing scorer in the league
-Meeks (1 dimensional, undersized SG)
-Oft injured and worn down Iguodala who no longer attacks (78% of shots are jumpers)
-Brand who can only score effectively in a few limitted spots on the floor
-Hawes/Brand/Battie/Speights frontcourt to protect the rim
-Zero bigs that can finish at the rim in traffic
-The only guys that can shoot are extremely limited players (Meeks, Noce, Kopono)
-Coming off a year where all chemistry was killed and the team was completely dysfunctional
-A new coach for a bunch of players that had burned through new coaches every year
-Zero home court advantage (fans or refs given they draw fouls at a league worst level.)

An "average" coach likely would have fully turned over the keys to Jrue, started ET and ridden through a the season to maybe 34 wins. Which might not have been the worst thing given the team's talent level.

But now he has them all playing to their strengths and ready to punch somewhat above their weight- for better or worse.

Good - so now I want an average coach for the sixers :)

All this talk about the celtics 'age' has me worried about Brand holding up this season

Yep, these guys are like a fishing bob. It seeks the water level. If you hold it above or below the water it quickly seek .500.

Maybe this should be their next mascot:

The Patriotic Sixer Bob:
http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_images_n300/0093-0609-2118-3259_bobber_cartoon_character_with_an_american_flag.jpg

It's funny, after seeing the arguments for the Knicks and Celtics above, I really just noticed how poor both teams' benches are. Like, really, really bad. Lou and Thad are miles ahead of anyone on their benches depending on how one feels about Jeff Green. I will always hate the Celtics and look for a reason to downgrade them (It's been a rough few years on that front), but that crappy bench is going to have to play a bunch of minutes. Same with the Knicks.

Add in the fact that teams with strong benches and solid depth may do well this year, and the Sixers might be able to challenge them in the regular season. Depending on Collins' ability to muster any production from our centers, they are a legitimate eight-deep. A four seed doesn't seem absurd at all. I will believe it when I see it though.

I don't disagree a four seed isn't absurd - I don't see it - but it isn't absurd

But the east is really '2 teams' and everyone else - it's the bulls and the heat (barring injury) and everyone else battling out to see who loses to them in the playoffs :)

If you're a free agent of mediocre talent right now you're salivating.

The Hornets still have to sign 4 players to get to the league minimum plus I don't know where they are in salary floor relation, but you might see some guys getting overly big one year deals

Landry 9m 1 year reportedly.

I don't think it'll be the same this time, but does anyone remember well what was it like in 1999? Did the stars carry the teams more than usually? I kinda feel that particular aspect will remain the same...

Never underestimate the power of 'Big Baby' Davis. He and Dwight/Brook/Andrew (choose one) will set some nice screens. And "Snidely" Stan VG knows how to use 'em.

-----

NBA SURNAMES STANDINGS

Williams 66
Johnson 55
Jones 45
Davis 38
Jackson 23

The Sixers community remembers Sam, Reggie, Larry, Mark & Jim.

Kate on why Jodie Meeks will be in the starting lineup instead of Turner:

http://bykatefagan.com/2011/12/15/why-jodie-meeks-will-almost-certainly-start-at-shooting-guard/

Summary

POINTS

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raro reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 15:48
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I'm curious if you think Jodie's role (as outlined by Kate)is any different than Ray Allen's role with the Celtics? Neither one creates for themselves or others and neither is rated as a plus defender. As you say, they exist only for POINTS.

Why is this bad?

Roy Halladay's Role is to pitch
Ivan Nova's role is to pitch

And yet there's a vast difference in how they perform their roles and how well they do it.

Please don't use Ray Allen and Jodie Meeks in the same sentence like that. It's insulting to Ray Allen, it makes me have to defend Ray Allen, who plays for the celtics AND went to uconn

Jeez - it's not as bad as having to defend christian laettner but it's close

Ray Allen after 10+ years in the league stil out performs jodie meeks on both ends of the court

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=allenra02&y1=2011&p2=meeksjo01&y2=2011

And check out that ast%, assist per 36 minutes

So not only Is ray allen VASTLY better at 'POINTS' he's also better at creating for his team mates, and rebounding

So no - Ray Allen and Jodie Meeks aren't even close to the same player - or role - and it's truly insulting to say he is

Jesus - got me defending a boston celtic

If Ray Allen were on the sixers I wouldn't have an issue with him starting over Evan Turner

Jodie Meeks is NOT Ray Allen
The sixers are NOT going anywhere relevant this season
Evan Turner's development is more important to the future of the sixers than Doug Collins career won loss record

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Dwight reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 16:47
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Jodie Meeks plays the shooting guard role better than Turner plays the shooting guard role.

Turner's role is small forward, but unfortunately we already have one.

Meeks plays "3-point specialist," he doesn't play starting shooting guard. Starting shooting guards tend to be able to dribble and pass.

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Dwight reply to stoned81 on Dec 16 at 13:58
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Meeks is also good as a cutter and driver. He finishes well with contact.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 17:24
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I think you are confusing their point totals and positions with their actual roles. Ben Wallace was a very effective center for a few years, but his role is much different than Pau Gasol's has been for the Lakers.

Baseball is an individual sport first and foremost, and basketball is different. A player's position in hoops is not an accurate enough description for his role. The Sixers' starting lineup as constituted with the other two guys in the backcourt works together better offensively with Jodie in the lineup. Yes, they score more points, and that's a good thing. As shooting guards, Jodie's role is similar to Ray Allen's. He provides for spacing and gives the Sixers some basic offensive motion when he runs off screens.

I want to see Turner make it as a shooting guard with the first unit, but Jodie's skill-set and role mesh very well with Iguodala and Jrue.

Yeah, wonder why she reported it was Turner's job like a week ago.

Because coming into camp collins presented it as it was 'his job to lose' - but what he really should have said was it was 'his job to prove he deserved it in the first couple of days of camp because i have no patience'

Yup. Collins seems to have a grand plan to stick it to Turner. He somehow convinced a ton of Sixer fans last year that Turner got a fair shot and "deserved" multiple DNPs and dozens of games under 20 minutes.

Pure speculation on her part.

Cooney wrote on his ball today that Turner was the ball handler on the second unit with Lou playing the 2 spot during today's scrimmage.

That to me makes a lot of sense. Evan can be creative and Lou is a good catch and shoot guy.

* ball should read blog

The Nets have finally amnesty'd Travis Outlaw

and the Blazers amnesty'd Roy

That sounds like they're at least leaving the door open for the Howard trade, if not on the verge of closing the deal. Amnestying Roy could bite them in the ass if Aldridge ever gets seriously hurt.

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Stan reply to Brian on Dec 15 at 17:24
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Who could they trade for Howard? Camby and Matthews?

I meant the rumored 3-team deal: NJN/POR/ORL

Yeah, but if Roy retires instead of being waived isn't he on the cap (and tax) a little longer than an amnesty?

I think the 'blazers are the next big thing' thing is dead and they should accept it

Well if Howard gets badly injured, they will regret amnestying Arenas right? What i am trying to say is you can't base your moves on the possibility that your most durable player who has no injury history might get seriously hurt.

I think this is a good move for the Blazers, not only because they leave the door open for a Nets-Magic trade, but because this way they can't have problems if Roy decides he can play in 2-3 years and comes back (similar to what happened to them with Miles).

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Stan reply to Xsago on Dec 15 at 17:44
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LaMarcus had some heart problems. He won't start the season.

He will only miss training camp. He will start the season. The heart problems sound very worrying yes, but as i understand they shouldn't be a problem and they are fixed after the surgery he undertook.

he's super durable except for that whole heart surgery thing. And this puts them in a possibly unnecessary bind because he would've come off the cap next year anyway. They could've saved the amnesty. And if Dwight gets hurt they wouldn't have used the amnesty on him anyway, Gilbert was signed for longer, for more money.

Lets assume they amnesty Roy. What if he comes back and plays in a year or two? We've seen enough guys with career ending injuries come back, haven't we? If that happens the Blazers will get killed with that contract under the new CBA.

I'd say it's far likelier that Roy comes back than Aldridge having serious long term health problems.

I really don't give a shit, to be honest with you. Struck me as odd that they'd use the amnesty when they could've waited a year and gotten the sme effect and still had the amnesty in their back pocket. I just think its awesome that the Roy/Aldridge juggernaut everybody had such a huge boner over pretty much topped right where the sixers have been, only the sixers never blew home court advantage in the playoffs

Of course Jodie Meeks isn't Ray Allen. One is a future hall of famer while the other will be happy to still be in the league five years from now. That's not my argument.

My question was about their roles. Ray Allen is better at his, but ultimately they're on the team for the same reason: to provide spacing for others. And looking at the 10'-11' season you referenced, the differences between the two players are not nearly as great as you make them out to be.

Here is my second question: why is Evan Turner's development dependent on him being in the starting lineup? He should get plenty of playing time with Jrue and Andre.

And Ray does more than just 'provide spacing'

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 17:25
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yup. He's the only member of the big 3 that doesn't act like a complete jackass when his team is up by 30 points.

Yeah, that I don't care about so much
Kevin Garnett is a douche bag
But he's a pretty good basketball player

I love how ESPN makes it like Garnett's all 'competitive' - he's a douche and a whiner and a bully

none of which are mutually exclusive.

i don't doubt that he's competitive any more than I doubt he's a douche and a whiner and a bully.

Well most of the things I think MAKE him a douche and a whiner the espn heads chalk up to his competitiveness :)

Should have been more clear - you're right they aren't mutually exclusive

No he's a jackass. The guy pounds his chest when his team beats up on a really inferior team. It's not competitiveness, it's him being a jackass and letting you know how much you suck.

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raro reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 17:48
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Sorry, I just don't see it.

Evan won't get the minutes (Collins gives less minutes to his bench players, almost 100% of the time), and his minutes will mostly be spent with LouWill who doesn't pass.

Not being satisfied with having the most point guards on one NBA roster, David Kahn also decided it would be a good idea to sign a guy who hasn't played in the NBA since 2008 - and (Buckaroo) Bonzi Wells is BACK in teh NBA

I wonder if he went across the 8th dimneion

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 17:57
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LAC still has him beat. Minnesota only has 4 PGs - Rubio, Ridnour, Wells, and Barrea

I always think of flynn as a point cause he's small

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Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 21:13
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Jonny Flynn is on Houston's roster.

Shoot, really? I totally forgot the entirety of the 'off season' that occurred before the lock out :)

Just had to look it up - thanks :)

Since when is Bonzi Wells a PG????

He's not - in my brain it makes more sense - i wasn't implying Bonzi was a point guard (but jonny flynn is in the same way iverson was) so much as I thought the barea sigining was foolish but then Kahn tops it by going back in time (not just a lesser known huey lewis Back to the Future song)

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Dwight reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 19:49
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Bonzi was the sixth man on those early decade Sac teams coached by Adelman. That's probably why they brought him in, to help teach Rubio the system.

Then bring him in as a coach, or, you know, hire a coach who knows the system to work with Rubio if he needs so much hand holding...bringing in this well past his expiration date player on a guaranteed contract as a player to teach a guy is just silly...there are easier, less exepensive ways to teach Rubio if, you know, learning from his head coach isn't enough.

It's wrong I know, but I want rubio to be a HUGE bust

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stan reply to Dwight on Dec 15 at 20:00
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Shouldn't they have brought in a true point guard instead of a rich man's Lou williams?

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Stan reply to stan on Dec 15 at 20:10
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My bad. Forgot Adlman was coach of the T'wolves

Im convinced that Doug Collins is usind Turner in the wrong role. Turner is a scorer who can pass and rebound. He is not a back-up point guard. I understand that having him in the starting lineup doesnt spread the floor as far as needing a pure shooter but I just think his skills arent being exploited.

I agree 100%. I also think Collins is out of his mind for thinking Meeks truly spreads the floor. He's left wide open most of the time.

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Dwight reply to stoned81 on Dec 16 at 14:01
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He's out of his mind for thinking Meeks spreads the floor? Putting Meeks in the starting lineup was one of the main reasons for our turnaround last season.

I agree, and I also believe Collins won't let Turner grow into his NBA role - he won't show patience - because (again) his career W-L record matters more to him.

Kid worked all damn offseason with Herb Magee - couple days in - he gets sent back to the bench

If he has improved, he's going to get plenty of time to show it and force Collins' hand on the floor. Even if DC has a personal vendetta against him - which is just a dumb theory - this schedule is going to require heavy minutes from the bench.

I didn't mean to imply he had a personal vendetta against Turner - but just more self interest than long term organizational interest...his resume more important than what he leaves behind when he leaves next season ;)

I know what you're saying. Others are talking about the personal vendetta. As for your problem with him, I don't really think anyone in the organization is on the sacrifice wins for the future mode right now, and they probably shouldn't be. I'm at the point where I don't really care about coddling turner. If you're good enough to start, prove it. The future of the team is about jrue reaching his ceiling and if playing Meeks next to him helps him develop into an all star pg because Meeks can hit an open jumper, then that's what they should do.

I don't feel the amount of time in the abbreviated training camp was enough for Turner to show he was ready or not. Honestly, until the first scrimmage I wouldn't have thought he was given enough time...that's all

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Rich reply to Brian on Dec 15 at 21:31
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Really, I feel that a lot of the anger towards this decision was the report to expect Turner to be in the starting lineup. That still baffles me why that came out. I was told to read into it that it was Turner's job to lose and by all reports he's been pretty good in camp. I just think that report was way off.

Kate's farewell to Sixers fans :)

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Rich reply to Brian on Dec 15 at 21:48
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Really though, before we get super-critical, let's see how Collins uses Turner off the bench. Is he finishing games when he deserves it? Thunder fans (I don't know any, maybe Tray now) are pretty secure about what James Harden means to their team, and he doesn't start.

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Tray reply to Rich on Dec 15 at 22:01
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Yeah, I'm thinking I'll be a Clippers fan for the moment.

Ah the bandwagon jumpers - gotta love em

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Rich reply to Tray on Dec 15 at 22:20
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OK, good to know. I may quote you on that.

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Tray reply to Rich on Dec 15 at 23:19
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Well, to tell you the truth, I was one last year in the first place, and I was a big fan of the one playoff team with Brand and Cassell. I thought it would be convenient to be a Thunder fan, being in OKC next season, but I don't really like Durant or Westbrook that much.

She wasn't the only one reporting Turner ran with the ones early in camp, not sure if they all wrote 'job to lose' though :)

Then again, Collins is an expert motivator right, see how he got Speights to work?

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 22:37
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Motivator or miracle worker?

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Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 21:15
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Collins doesn't give a shit about his career record. Do you know anything about this guy?

I've never met him - have you?

I know that expecting him to be here long term is contrary to the evidence available.

I know manmy people here over rate his ability to coach because they forget that before Eddie Jordan the sixers were a 500 team - and under Doug Collins they were a 500 team - I know many of those same people use the slow start (3-13) excuse while ignoring the uncommon for a mediocre team 13-4 run in Jan/Feb 2011 to off set it.

I know coaches in general - in most sports - are vastly over rated - and I know collins is vastly over rated by many on here who long for the days of shorter shorts and set shots

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Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 21:24
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I tend to agree, but he's probably got the best handle on the team, and Collins doesn't really have a backup PG.

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Charlie H reply to Charlie H on Dec 15 at 21:39
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Was supposed to be a reply to KellyDad above.

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Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 21:37
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What are you an 8th-grader? Nobody's talking about a personal relationship with Collins. It's his professional history that is the topic. He's not a quitter and he's not in it for himself. He's one of the best competitors this franchise ever had and has a great basketball mind.

What did he ever do to make you so sure he's gonna quit in the middle of next season? Your snotty remarks and smug predictions are becoming tiresome and add nothing to the conversation.

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South Broad reply to Charlie H on Dec 15 at 22:41
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"Your snotty remarks and smug predictions are becoming tiresome and add nothing to the conversation."

+2,168

"One of the best competitors this franchise ever had" ... yeah, especially if you ask him. Good player in his time, not great, and a self-centered personality according to my avid, regular fan's view. Above all, made sure he got his shots. That said, he meritoriously helped Sixers find the road back from infamy. Doug to George to Doc to Moses, supervised by Gene and Billy. Collins seems to have grown into a richer human being than I remember from his playing days. Never lacked for enthusiasm. Knockin' down two against the Ruskies before Reagan tore down that wall took balls. A shame they were cheated.


Did I say he was going to quit?

I looked at the history of Doug collins, have you?

Your pointless insults aside, I don't care what you think of me, keep that in mind. No one makes you answer me, if you think so little of what I have to say, I believe it says more about your desperate need to pick a fight than anything else.

How is he supposed to force Collins' hand? Turner played well last year when Iggy went down with injury, then went straight back to sub-15 minutes when Iggy came back.

Turner will probably get 20 minutes a game to start out. If he averages 8 and 4, those are good averages in 20 minutes. Will 8 and 4 get Collins to give him more minutes? Highly unlikely.

Using the ESPN Radio app (good little 2.99 investment) I was listening to the Chris Paul PC on the way home (at least the first 30 minutes)...

The praise heaped on Pauls agent bothered me, I don't think agents should be this involved in things like team trades, and I think agents are a huge problem with how the NBA is run.

However, Paul seemed like a nice, funny thoughtful guy...I never really was much of an 'interview' listener or watcher in the past so never really heard Paul speak, but I think he came off pretty well and sincere

Reading some notes afterwards, it seems like CP3 tried to avoid saying 'Lakers' and was referring to the 'other team' a lot

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R2D2 reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 22:50
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Yea he was nice and sincere enough to sucker punch Julius Hodge in the nutsack in a game in college ala Reggie Evans/KG

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 15 at 23:17
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Yeah, Paul's a pretty good guy for an NBA superstar. This is a touching Paul story you may or may not have heard before:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125484&page=1#.TurGKVY0poM

I don't get all the hand-wringing about Turner. You either earn minutes and take advantage of your opportunities (on any level) or you don't. It's up to Evan to be "the great player that [he is]." Pro basketball doesn't cotton to an individual's fantasies.

How exactly does he "earn" minutes. When Iggy went down with injury last year, Turner played well (averaged 12 and 5) and when Iggy came back, Turner lost his minutes.

Turner had one of his best games of the season against GSW (20 points on 9 of 15 shooting in 28 min), said "I just wanna play for crying out loud" after the game, and lost virtually all his minutes for a month (only to play again because LouWill got hurt).

Just going through his game log, I see that on 1/8 he got 19 pts, on 1/11 he got 14 pts, on 1/14 he was rewarded with 10 minutes on the floor.

On 2/8, Turner had 8 pts, 8 rebs, 7 assists in 32 minutes. What did that "earn" him? The next 2 games he played 12 minutes and 16 minutes.

On 12/3 he shot 5 for 7 for 11 points 4 rebs in 19 minutes. What did that "earn" him? 11 minutes the following game.

"You either earn minutes or you don't."

OK, well, please explain what he's supposed to do to "earn" minutes if 5 for 7 doesn't earn minutes. If 8/8/7 doesn't earn minutes. If 19 pts and 14 pts in consecutive games doesn't earn minutes.

Turner earns his minutes by performing well on a consistent basis, not as it pertains to individual stat lines (which, read in black-and-white, apart from context, is often distortive of reality) but rather as it effects his team as a whole.

Quote his log readings of last year in their entirety and a truer picture of his patchy (a euphemism) rookie performance will have been presented. Full-throttle games like GSW 'up-and-down shoot 'em up' plays to his AAU-style strengths ("gimme the ball, let me loose to run and deal, irrespective of system concerns and serious two-way play"). Turner has to learn to do his job within Doug's system against teams who present greater resistence, aka 'the contenders', and also against uninspiring opponents who offer no helpful adrenaline boost and require a more grind-it-out approach. According to pro evidence to date, he's a piece (and a piece of work), not a centerpiece. He'll earn his minutes by making it a coach's embarrassment to have him seated on the bench during undecided games' critical passages, the traditional way players do. A dependable jump shot would do wonders, as would a sublimation of ego.

The case of Evan Turner reminds me of rocker Chrissie Hynde of The Pretenders belting out: "I'm special, so special; I got to have some of your attention - give it to me!"

Honestly, when you take Turner's draft status out of the equation, his performance last year would not have warranted him more playing time then he received.

Turner received 23 minutes a game despite being one of the least efficient guards in the NBA. He rebounded well and played decent defense. His playmaking was not on the level of Holiday or Iguodala last year (despite his potential.)

IMO, the only reason to argue for more minutes over Meeks last year would be based on him being the #2 pick and his performance on the college level (playing PG against players 5" shorter than him.) I am completely behind Turner and want him to succeed. But I think the notion that he was "held back" is not supported by his play. There are a number on nobodies who put up a few individual performances last year as good as ET's, and the body of his work in the regular season was completely uninspiring.

IMO ET came into the NBA unprepared to deal with the step up in athleticism and defense. He needs to adjust and hopefully will be everything we hope he can be. But he was pretty lousy last year when you look at his game objectively. And to say he could have put up better numbers in a non-legit NBA environment (like the Bullets) is not really saying anything to his credit, beyond saying he can do well at a lower level of competetion.

I am basically only responding to your contention that ET proved himself on the floor when given the chance..

When you consider the team, and that they already had two ball handlers in the backcourt who are better passers, scorers and defenders than ET, it is hard to say he should have gotten more than his 23 minutes when you take the "draft prospect" part out of the equation.

Some raw numbers (82games):

Meeks/Turner
------------
PER:13.2/11.4
Opp PER: 12.5/13.3
Team with: +2.3/-1.4
Team without: +0.3/+3.8
***Net On/Off: +1.7/-5.2***
eFG%: .546/.439
TS%:.600/.484
Hands rating: 11.6/14.4
Rebound rating: 8.8/17.7
Passer Ratings: 1.4/4.6

So unless you need rebounding, Meeks performed better than ET last year... and the team was much better when he was on the floor.

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MCT reply to tk76 on Dec 16 at 11:56
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I don't really care what their advanced stats were, during his bad stretches Turner spent much of his time on the court standing around not knowing what to do with himself. Also, he is the type of player who needs to get into a rhythm to score his points since he is not a great shooter, in my opinion his shooting percentages would have been higher than they were if he played more minutes and shot more. This year I want to see at least 10 shots a game.

Please also remember that Turner played really well in 2 of our playoff games, and pretty good in another. Meeks sucked. I know that is a small sample size, but I would say they were the most important games of the year wouldn't you?

I'm not trying to bash ET. Simply saying he did not "earn" more than his 23 minutes a game last season.

I'm encouraged that he stepped up in the playoffs. But on the flip side, the Heat are not a representative sample of who the Sixers will be playing. The Sixers needed to be able to play outside their normal game to compete with the Heat (have as many defenders and one one one guys who can beat their man as possible.) Against most teams the team plays better with 2 ball handlers and a shooter.

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MCT reply to tk76 on Dec 16 at 13:18
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I know you're not bashing him, I just think the statistics need some context to get the whole picture.

I agree with you about having 2 ball handlers, I just wish it was Jrue and Turner. Let's say 70% Jrue and 30% Turner. Just because Dre is a good ball handler and playmaker doesn't mean he should be one of them (unless it is on a fast break). I think he gets himself into trouble when he has the ball too much, i.e. fade away jumpshots at the end of the shot clock with a hand in his face. I think he could shoot good percentages, including 3pt, if he just took open set shots or took it to the hole.

I'm not too worried about who starts though, I just want Turner to get more minutes, consistently, this year, and I want JTI on the floor at crunch time.

GoSixers wants shorter shorts and set shots but Betsy Ross and Larry Costello are out of town.

Turner would get a ton more opportunity to do his thing if either Iguodala or Lou were traded. But it does not sound like that is happening this year.

But you have to figure that the team will know what Turner can do by the middle of this season even if he is not starting or put in a perfect spot for his skill set. So by the off-season they will be ready to decide who stays and who goes.

Jrue/Turner/Shooting SF works.
Jrue/Meeks/Iguodala works

I'm just not sure Jrue/Turener/Iguodala will ever really work to the players best abilities.

BTW, I'm much less willing to marginalize Meeks at this stage. He was a dynamic scorer in college and is the rare quality shooter who does not seem to want to dominate the ball. So I'm holding out hope that he can actually be a long term 25+ minute a night guy either as a starter or key bench player.

Most really good shooter are:
1. Gunners
2. Non-scorers who can't give you high volume
3. "interesting" characters

Meeks seems like a guy who has a scorers mentality without taking bad shots or taking away from teammates. So I'm willing to overlook some of the limits to his game, especially slotted between Jrue and Iguodala.

Which one was Kyle Korver?

Just to add a little fuel to the fire.

Last season, JTI had an offensive rating of 100.5 and a defensive rating of 103 in 289 minutes. Which is pretty bad.

But JTI with Thad at the four and Brand at the five had an OFR of 101.75 and a DFR of 93.02, which is a nice split and that defensive rating is sick. That unit played 87.3 minutes together.

The real killer was playing JTI with Hawes and Brand up front, they were 101.44/110.33 in 111 minutes.

Jrue, Meeks, Iguodala was pretty sick overall: 109.9/101.5.

And again, the best lineup w/ JMI was with Brand and the 5 and Thad at the 4: 117.39/94.32 in 185 minutes.

Wow, J/M/I Thad/brand really destroyed people. And 4 of the 5 will likely be better players next year.

I'm in the minority, but to me the ideal scenario would have been to trade Loou and slot Turner in as a 30+ min a game super-sub at all 3 positions. That line-up plus and impact big to replace Brand could really be good.

Was that the best 5 man squad in the NBA last year (150+ minutes?)

Chalmers-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony had similar success in 150 minutes (probably for similar reasons.)

Also:
Rose-Brewer-Deng-Gibson-Asik
Rondo-Allen-Pierce-Garnett and anyone

#2 in differential w/ 150 minutes plus. Kidd, Stevenson, Butler, Dirk, Chandler was better.

Yeah,really impressive.

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bebopdeluxe reply to MCT on Dec 16 at 14:18
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Personally, I am not sure why they don't run more JTI sets where ET is, functionally, the guy with the ball in his hands a significant chunk of the time, with Jrue (who has a MUCH better stroke from distance than ET) spotting up from the wing. Some may say that is a waste of Jrue's PG ability, but it also allows the Sixers offense to take more advantage of ET's dribble offense.

What is the better trade-off - ET's dribble offense and all of the other things that he is theoretically superior to Meeks (passing, rebounding, defense), with Jrue being the spot-up shooter, or Meeks being the spot-up shooter - with the other parts of his game that are inferior to ET?

I know that last year's stats can be pulled out to analyze this, but if ET's game takes that "2nd year" leap that it has taken everywhere else he has been (HS, AAU and college), then I would REALLY like to see if the scenario that I mention above (with Jrue being more like a Nash-like PG who can kill you from distance if you give him the kind of space that D-Wade game him in Game 4) would be more productive than simply defaulting to giving Meeks those minutes.

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Dwight reply to stoned81 on Dec 16 at 14:07
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See that's your problem, Stoned. You're looking at the stats and not how he is actually playing.

Turner is a good one-on-one scorer. But last season he looked absolutely lost in the offense. He made terrible cuts, often just stood in the same place on offense, and was slow in making his decisions.

He made a lot of rookie mistakes last year, which is why he came off the bench. But now that he's a second year player, maybe he will become more comfortable in the offense and become a starter.

Ok, so first of all, you all read too much into the lineups DC uses in scrimmages. He just puts two relatively balanced lineups on the court that will play a lot of minutes together during the season. It has nothing to do with starting or not.

I'm on record saying that Turner is very likely to start (and maybe finish) but will play the majority of his minutes with the second unit. And DC gave the explanation why like a million times: He needs to have 2 guys capable of handling the ball on the court at all times.

Most importantly Turner is not competing with Meeks for minutes. The guys that he needs to wrestle minutes from are Iguodala and Holiday. The third guy out there will for the most part be Meeks and Lou (20min each if Turner starts and finishes, 23-25 each if Meeks starts).

The game of basketball is no longer that much position oriented. A team according to DC needs to have 2 ball handlers that initiate the offense and 1 spot up shooter at any time in the backcourt. Jrue, Turner and Iguodala can't fill those 3 roles right now.

Turner is at it's best if he is used as a ball dominant guy in the backcourt similar to Jordan,Bryant and Roy. And you know what was always true about those guys? They were NEVER paired with ball dominant PGs and SFs. The PG was almost always a spot shooter, that can handle the ball if need be. Remeber how there was a problem in Portland when they brought Andre miller to play with Roy? That kind of thing just doesn't work... At least against most teams.

Ok, so first of all, you all read too much into the lineups DC uses in scrimmages.

Then so do the writers who cover the team.

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deepsixersuede reply to Xsago on Dec 16 at 11:43
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Very well said and I am in total agreement with it BUT does that mean Jrue and Turner will never be a backcourt duo unless a Gallanari type s.f. is brought here?

I was hopeful that a defensive personality becomes this teams trademark and that Iggy, Jrue and Evan together could emphasize this approach. Can a conventional approach get this team to contender status by just adding to this core?

Are there any statistics about how many wins the “continuity” is worth?

Something like defining the continuity property as keeping your coach and enough of your players according to some criteria (like keeping above a given percentage of your players according to minutes or WS or whatever), and then checking how many wins teams with that property gained or lost.

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Rich reply to Scott on Dec 16 at 13:08
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Fitting that Jodie and Turner are the one's making plays on both possessions.

Yep, good to see Hawes not even contesting the dunk as well. The more things change...

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Rich reply to Brian on Dec 16 at 13:14
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I really think that this team is a 4 seed for about 12 hours of the day. Then I realize Hawes will have to play 20 minutes, and then they aren't a 4 seed anymore.

And here I was focusing on the good things - Jrue making the shot, Evan finding the open cutter, and you had to go ruin it all :)

So who is actually able to watch tonights game?

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Dwight reply to Brian on Dec 16 at 13:56
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Apparently Doug Collins says Hawes is "light years" ahead of where he was last year. Maybe he can step it up for us this year.

If not, then it's time to give Vucevic a shot.

NBATV is airing a bunch of pre-season games this year

On Tuesday, at 7 eastern, the Sixers/Wizards game will be one.

Watch out, Wall & Wizards wearing Big E/Unseld/Chenier-era 'red, white and blue' classic unis this year. Could be the start of something big.

will there be a game thread for the pre-season game tonight?

Was reading Pruiti's description on Grantland (really, really useful writer for NBA fans who want things explained to them), and I thought Sixers when he was breaking down CP3 and Blake:

"Griffin's skill becomes apparent here. He is one of the NBA's quickest players when he goes from setting a screen to rolling to the rim. He's just as quick, or maybe quicker than, forwards like David West, David Lee, and Amar'e Stoudemire, who tend to slip screens before making contact with the ballhandler's defender. Griffin, on the other hand, sets solid screens and still manages to roll to the rim with impressive speed."

I wonder what that would do for Jrue's scoring (and playmaking) if Hawes and Brand set a solid screen on the ball.

Or could even remotely finish in traffic.

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Rich reply to Brian on Dec 16 at 14:12
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Baby steps. I'm just trying to get them to do what is physically possible. For Thad, there is really no excuse though. Maybe more AI9 dives to the hoop this year like you suggested? Couldn't think of a better passer if the defense collapses on him. Meeks could have a field day.

Why would a good defense collapse on Iguodala? He doesn't finish well inside. A smartly defending team will play his tendency to pass on inside trips, get between him and shooters, steer him toward his weaker option, shooting, unless he proves hot.

Iguodala finishes well inside. He may look less than silky smooth, bu his FG% on inside shots has been about the best in the NBA for the past 4 seasons. But he does not hit his FT's.

I disagree. Inside FG% to which you refer is distorted by breakaway dunks, isn't it? For all his buff athleticism, Iguodala isn't a big fan of lane contact imo, goes strong only intermittently when he sniffs clearance to rim. To-the-hole swag in face of bigs limited. Good defending teams can force him into fadeaway prayers or dump-offs.

I think there's a difference between him driving on someone (He doesn't have a great first step) and having a running start at the rim. I would think that you have to honor a guy with that kind of athleticism.

As an individual defender, I'd honor his athleticism by giving him some room up top or on extended wing, tempting release of his jump shot and expecting the momentum pass if he begins to drive, assuming some resistence, primary and/or secondary.

Prior post intended for Rich.


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