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There's No Excuse For That Loss

I think the franchise needs Turner to become their primary half court option as much as they need Holiday (almost typed Billups) to be their "Top 5" point. And though I agree with your points on both of them, I stick to my seniments regarding Turner. With Lou, Thad, and Meeks they don't need a scorer but if it were his defined role I believe he'd excel.

Addendum: Would rather have Favors.

eddies' heady's reply to Cin on Dec 31 at 1:21

I humbly extend you credit for hope, or is it belief - on the excel part.

eddies' heady's on Dec 31 at 1:18

Why sign Battie if he can't even give you just a few minutes one game early in the season? .... at the start of that fourth quarter (assuming Speights is done). What the hell is he signed for? I mean, it's not like he's going to be this big difference maker in the playoffs or anything, so save him. And his locker room influence can't be that contagious to re-up another year for just that.

But really, it boils down to me that if you had a 'high' draft pick that played just a tad like a semblance of one, you win games like this easy. Voose's line is almost similar to Evan Turner's but in half the minutes. There ain't but one way to slice that: disgraceful. Or maybe two ways - disappointing. Hell, make it three - deplorable. The guy doesn't appear to make even the slightest difference on the outcome of games. It's not a slam, it's just objectivity.

(disclaimer: ET's not the blame for this loss, but a hidden reasoning. You get a pick that high, you capitalize, period. Not end up with lower lower-case. And a bench role player is just that)

... and sign a damn big man that you can actually use.....that's a blame

He sure didn't make a difference tonight. In the first two games, he was objectively very good though.

I think the Favors love has gotten a little out of hand. Sure, he looks like he'll be a more valuable piece than Turner just because of his size and defense, but getting 20/10 on Hawes is at least in the ballpark of Turner lighting up the Suns. He is still very raw offensively, and aside from a few wide, wide open jumpers, he really got his points from pushing aside the finesse-y-est (I know that's not even close to a word, nice way of saying soft) center in the NBA.

eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Dec 31 at 1:49

Not that you were insuating, but Favors wasn't mentioned anywhere.

Pointing out Favors manhandled Hawes has nothing to do with Evan's failures.

..and i say this politely

I think he was replying to your comment in the 1st paragraph, and rather than leave two comments, replied to Brian's praise for Favors in the 2nd.

Tray reply to Rich on Dec 31 at 1:49

Almost certainly the best game of Favors's career. Career highs in points, minutes, tied his career high in defensive rebounds, just 3 fouls in 40 when he averages 6/40. I think if you did the 2010 draft over, I'd take Monroe over him. But probably not Cousins and I'm torn on Davis.

Poor performance aside, I think this game highlighted the reason the glaring weaknesses on the Sixers team will not allow it to really compete;

1 Lack of interior presence or scoring - We looked at our best when Brand was working Millsap and doing well. Once Favors and Kantner,(which I think was the lineup that gave the run through the 3rd and 4th), sealed it up and Brand could not get anything off we regressed to dribbling around the perimeter*.
* why the hell did they keep running that play with Hawes at the high post? he just gets double teamed, stripped, or just hands the ball back to the perimeter player anyway. even if he passes, it's still like a 50% chance turnover! DC and his big man machinations!

2 Lack of interior defense - self explanatory. even though Hawes did a good job challenging shots.

Golden State = soothing balm to the sting of a salty wound.

PS: I believed Gladiator-style play calling from the refs in Utah was dead with the exit of Jerry Sloan. Apparently I was mistaken.

Around the league (with a focus on rookie news), Bismack played 12 minutes tonight. Looked very strong and sound defending Howard, but also picked up 5 fouls in the process. 2 points (on 1 shot), 4 boards, a block, a turnover. Kemba shot 1-9. It's going to be a bumpy season for him. Indiana struggled to beat Cleveland; Granger and West have been terrible so far. Hibbert is playing the best nba ball of his career though. 17, 13 and 3 blocks tonight, 7-11 from the field. MarShon Brooks continues to be the Nets' 2nd best scorer. 21 on 13 shots tonight. For Detroit, Monroe had 22, 9 and 4, 2 steals, on just 12 shots. You all saw what Rubio did. In Memphis, Kyle Lowry had 15 (on 9 shots), 3, 8 and 4 steals in 24 minutes before the game got out of hand. I think he just might make the All-Star team. In garbage time, Chandler Parsons, a 6'10 small forward out of Florida, had 13 and 6 (three threes); Josh Selby, for Memphis, had 9 and 7 assists. Josh Davis, who played 42 games for us in 2004 and was last seen in the league six seasons ago, is back in the NBA with Memphis. Ian Mahinmi had 19 points on 6 shots for Dallas. Kanter you saw. And the Clippers still aren't there yet. This was their best offensive showing so far, but they got killed on the glass and didn't defend anyone particularly well.

Rich reply to Tray on Dec 31 at 2:38

You can't play a game much better than the one Rose played tonight.

Although most here may not take this seriously, I'm being 100% honest when I say we might have extended the wrong guy. Thad looks seriously overpaid while Hawes looks seriously underpaid (considering how easy it is to find a tweener and how hard it is to find a 10 & 10 center). We could've extended Hawes on the cheap. If he keeps this up we're going to have to shell out a lot of we want to keep him, and if we don't, our only center next year will be Nikola. Wish we had made him a 4-year offer.

Rich reply to stoned81 on Dec 31 at 2:55

Thad has been crappy, I agree with that.

Do you realize that any positives Hawes did tonight were pretty much cancelled out by the fact that Favors absolutely abused him on the offensive end though? I think Hawes is playing pretty well, but when anybody with a semblance of physical strength plays against him, they have their way with him on the offensive end. Favors literally has no post game to speak of, and he shot 10-16 tonight. That's gotta change before you even think of extending him for any kind of money. This is even before mentioning that he's a sieve when it comes to defending pick and rolls.

I didn't see tonight's game but if Hawes was covering Favors yeah that's some weak D clearly. I hear you, I don't think Hawes is perfect, but I think he definitely would've been worth a 4-year $20M offer, something like that. Even if his D stinks all year (I think he will be better than tonight in most games), if he averages 10 & 10 he's still better than any other center we can get and would've been a steal at 4/$20M. Instead our choice will be to pay him probably 5/$40M (roughly the going rate for a 10 & 10 center I believe?) or let him go and have Vucevic as our only center. Neither is a great option and it could've been avoided with a long-term offer in early December.

Thad's performance thus far after his new contract has put the "depressed" back into "depressed fan" for me. I originally said I wanted Thad at 4/$25 and no more, then I thought the deal was OK after seeing what other guys were getting, then I saw Kris Humphries not get a single offer and realized I was totally wrong. Thad's deal is pretty bad now in my opinion.

Or maybe neither of them should have been extended, whichmakes more sense unless you want to continue to be mediocre...Hawes still can't defend even mediocre big men who can post up, Hawes still can't jump, when he puts the ball on teh ground, it's scary, when he's double teamed, it's a turn over, and he's still easy to out rebound again with even a modicum of strength...there's a lot of blame to go around for last nights loss and Hawes shares some of it all on his own

khouse reply to GoSixers on Dec 31 at 16:01

I think if Hawes is re-signed, I think he should be Brand's replacement next year if he's amnestied/traded (unlikely as of now given how "old" his game is right now) as I think it's more suited to what he does best. Then we could sign a center to concentrate solely on defense/rebounding which would solve our two most glaring needs & give us some size in the middle!

You think hawes would be a good four?

khouse reply to GoSixers on Dec 31 at 18:20

I think we should definitely consider moving him there & then adding another big! Considering Brand's current level of play (& that Speights/Battie will be lucky to play much this season) it would help our depth as well! But, it isn't likely to happen given DC's rigidity & Thorn's ludicrous fantasy (that Doug has endorsed) that a star will magically want to come here if we can make to the second round. But if we can't even get past a bad team like this with our current line-up, how likely is that?

I don't understand why Turner can't start and be the primary initiator on offense. Jrue has struggled at the hoop and looked much more comfortable pulling up for jumpers. Not sure why he can't be the first team's "shooter". Meeks barely belongs in an nba rotation, much less our starting lineup.

Every Sixer fan I know (not counting those online here) thinks Turner should be starting and Meeks should be playing in the D-league. I hear you loud and clear.

Because, he isn't good enough to start right now. He isn't consistent enough to start right now, and he still isn't a good shooter.

What I find fascinating is all the calls for Turner to start now after an awful terrible pathetic performance not even worthy of his rookie year...

The sixers have bigger problems than Evan Turner vs Jodie Meeks - mediocre big men can dominate them, Enes Kanter exposed Hawes defensive weaknesses. The PF/C players are going to doom this team to mediocrity at best, and if Brand doesn't get whatever he had last year back, it's going to be a long year.

The Jazz aren't that terrible. Are they bad? Yes.

The Al Jefferson injury was a blessing in disguise as it gave more minutes to Favors and Kantor who both dominated. Both are very promising bigs.

This was the type of game where having a real star could have bailed them out. It was collectively a bad effort but one player elevating their game versus another starless team would have still been the difference. The Sixers typically get star level performance from a different guy each night but tonight they all failed to step up.

What separates a star is how you get those big games consistently so that the role players are not asked to play above their heads.

Dwight reply to Tk76 on Dec 31 at 15:21

Lou played like a star

Well, except for missing the layup to tie and shooting 0/5 from three, yeah. He was a star.

Brian, save your comments on about turner stepping up, Collins has made it known who are his scorers and facilitators.

Turner is not one of them right now. Every time he is in the game he has no chance too run the offense and it shows, he is lost out there because he is playing a role foreign too him, this is all on collins.

Collins has lied about turner being the point on the second team, you can clearly see lou did not get the memo on that so you have Turner sitting there playing defense rebounding and taking random shots.

Great scorers need to be in rhythm, that is why lou scores 20, that is why jrue is getting out of his funk because there allowed too, Turner has not been able to do that.

Turner is following his coach, his coach has given him a role and turner is following it, put him on the jazz and let him play point or be a scorer and Turner box score is 20 points, 10 rebounds, 9 assist. I dont care what VU does, he is a recipient of lou going to the hole.

Turner is more than a role player, unfortunately we will probably see that when he goes to another team that will give him that opportunity other than collins.

I wanted Favors two Mays ago. Club went with a decorated Eagle Scout instead. It's on the dopes in the front office. Nothin' like 'tweener overstock for a rainy day. Turner is not talented enough to be an NBA centerpiece.

Happy Groundhog's Day, I mean, New Year!

Turner has talent. Hopefully the 1st 2 games were a hint of how he will play in the future. But I cannot disagree more with your contention that Turner's passive performances have been Collin's fault. I am 100% certain that Collins did not tell Turner to stand in the corner and never drive all last year. Just like he did not instruct Hawes to play soft or Iguodala to settle for long jumpers.

Collins has put the players in a position to succeeded. He does not have an MJ or Grant Hill- and that is why this team does not perform at a consistently high level. Not because he has marginalized his players. He has given them each clear roles because for the most part they are all role players. A bunch of character actors without a real lead.

Dave reply to tk76 on Dec 31 at 14:26

I am not blaming collins for making turner shoot bad shots ect, what i am saying is this is collins fault for giving him this role. Many talk like Turner can do what he wants on the court, that is not the case especially on a nba team, that is why i said earlier collins has made it known who is his facilitators and scorers.

I blame collins because his remedy for getting turner the opportunity was too let him come off the bench but be the primary ball handler, at this point nobody on the team has gotten that memo.

This is not a collins sucks comment or lw is trash but i am saying the reason turner can look like he has no clue what he is doing on the court is because he has no major role, collins has said it, Turners role here is too play good defense, rebound and when the shot opens up take it.

My point is that is not how scorers operate in the nba, they need rhythm, volume of shots, Collins again has made it clear that is not what he wants Turner doing so when you see turner go 0-2 too start he starts looking lost on the offensive end because he is not given the role to get into rhythm and too score ala jrue against the jazz.

so when people make comments that turner needs too play like he belongs and show up on the court is totally unwarranted against a player that has made a career of getting into rhythm and showing that he belongs by making big shots and taking controlling the offense then now being told that is not your role anymore it makes sense that he would be lost, he has never played in any other role. ask wade too just play defense, rebound, and hit the open shot and you will see how lost he looks in a regular game.

Is anything ever Evan Turners fault - when he took shots last night they were terrible and flat and ba looks - Evan Turner has prove nothing, Louis Williams though I hate him has shown what he can do...right now Evan Turner hasn't shown anything consistently...stop putting it on Collins, or Lou, it's on Evan...and while it's ok for fans to be myopic, if Turner feels it's not on him then his career is doomed

Say what you want but when turner is given steady, constant minutes he produced just as good a anyone on this team. Turner should be a starter simply because he is hands down a better basketball player than Meeks.

Like I have said before, Turner is a scorer who just happens to be able to pass and rebound. He is not a point guard. He game is not running the offense. Collins has taken his college game of having the ball in his hands and creating for himself first into giving him the ball as a point guard, letting him set up a play and trying to make him a facilitator. That's not what Turner does best. He is a finisher on offense. Turner would fit best in the role that Lou plays. Making buckets.

He's a scorer with a god awful shot
When he shows consistency he'll get the minutes
But arguing after last nights debacle that hes earned starters minutes is ludicrous. He was awful in Utah

When I saw favors starting to get buckets over hawes, I thought, better turner play well tonight or we gonna hear a lot of bashing tomorrow.. and it seems turner did think that too
First, I was in for a big at the 2010 draft to balance the roster better: favors, cousins, monroe, davis, anyone.. Nothing against turner but he just overlaps a lot skills this team already have.
As I was saying before, when turner entered the game he tried to be agressive but his shots didn´t go in, but his leash is waaay shorther then jrue´s, iggy´s or lou´s, all of them had shooting themselves out of a slump in games before this young season, and all of them are in front of turner in pecking order of handling the ball.
Already pressed by the play of favors, I saw turner pressing to get the ball, try make something, just like his rooke season, and not letting the game come to him.
Turner is at his best creating something with the ball in hands, asking him to play off the ball is like asking favors to play in high post as hawes, it´s not his strengh.
Like the scout said in philly.com piece, the developtment in turner´s game depends on collins leash and the opportunity to be the ballhandling creator for the team he is in.

elf reply to elf on Dec 31 at 9:58

Just one more thing, in the first 2 games of the season, the jazz played with al jefferson at center, obviously, at the block and a crowd frontcourt, how was favors game then ? 8p and 6r in 19 min vs lakers and 2p and 10r in 17 min vs denver.
Humm.. some vet playing in his spot he struggles, when the vet is not in the line up and the spot is free he produces, it looks like turner and iggy..
The problem is in the FO..
Sorry for occupy such space in the blog

JH reply to elf on Dec 31 at 10:28

-Asking speights to play the enforcer role is not playing to a player strengh;
-Using turner as off the ball shooter is not playing to a player strengh;
-Asking lou to be a pg and initiate the offense and distribute the ball is not playing to player strengh;
-Expecting hawes to play the 5 as a big, is not playing to a player strengh;
-Asking Iggy to be a scorer that puts the team in his back and delivers at end games, is not playing to player strengh;

Why the 76ers always try to make their players do something they are not natural at ? I understand developt your weak spots to be more complete player but c´mon !!
The problem is the FO for sure

Look at this roster... is that the coaches fault?

Sure they should beat the Jazz most nights. But this is not a very good basketball team. Just a somewhat above average one. You can't have zero stars and expect to be much above average.

JH reply to tk76 on Dec 31 at 11:29

This team has so many overlapping talents:
Iggy,Turner- all around point forwards, good at D and rebs with no long range shooting;
Hawes,Voose- good shooting, ball friendly, not tough, not shotblocker, no D specially P´R;
Lou,Meeks-small 2 guards that cant contibute in anything outside of points, sukc at D;
Brand,Thad- Only scoring options if 16f in, can´t D and rebound against other bigs;
Jrue-maybe the only elite talent, can adapt and play with everybody but still not full developt, so is below Iggy and Lou at the pecking order to shoot and create for the team when the game is on the line.

The path the team is taking is accumulating talent to trade to get a star to pair with Iggy and maybe another star thru free agency after amnesty brand next year like NY,MIA way.
I would implode the team and try to get picks to next year draft to get a big and build around Jrue. That´s the MIN, OKC way, get talent and build trhu draft.

I agree with this and it's probably the best (or least painful) path available to them. But IMO Collns has done a good job letting guys play to their strength and giving young players a chance to develop wiyhout too many growing pains.

JH reply to tk76 on Dec 31 at 12:03

Agree with that too, Collins is doing what is best for the team and thats why we have a great bench and average starters but I think we got here because I was trying to put some perspective in the Turner, Favors matter.
And righ now the best for the team(second Collins) is Iggy, Lou and Jrue are above Turner on the handling, create role, so bash Turner for his production is a little biased. The problem is not the players, neither the coach staff, the problem is in the collecting of talent and putting them together. Thorn was Stephansky mentor so from there you get where we go

Thorn has a track record of acquiring stars. I think he has just not had the right opportunity yet.

I would be surprised if this team does not make a move for a major talent in the next 14 months. They have the assets and the talent to make that kind of move. And if they can somehow get past the 1st round this year they will be a more appealing destination.

South Broad reply to JH on Dec 31 at 13:56

If that's the path the team is taking, and you're saying keep AI9, who are you classifying as the "talent" that's being accumulated? It can't possibly be Vucevic, Turner, or a now overpaid Thad. Jrue? He seems to be a lone ranger here, imo.

Well, how much talent do a team need to make a trade for a star ?
CP3- eric gordon was the lonely player really talented traded
Melo- gallinari, chandler ? gfoh!
KG-Al Jefferson was the real talented player traded
Shaq- Lamar odom, caron butler pfff
To get a star you need a realy good young talent, couple of more good young talent, cap space and the most desireable, first round unprotected picks.
So with jrue, ET, Thad, Voose and even Lou you got a realy good talent with a couple of more good young talents, plus Noc and Hawes as more or less 10M in expiring money and 76ers picks.. So is posible

deepsixersuede on Dec 31 at 10:13

I mentioned the other day about starting Lou and letting Meeks come in with Turner. I think it may lead to better starts and allow Turner to have Lou's type of freedom with the ball off the bench.

I know how a lot of people feel about Hawes but I am of this opinion if he continues to play like this; get a long athletic big to put NEXT to him, not replace him. Elton and Thad are as much or more the problem on the defensive end so far this year and I hope the athlete we get will be of the p.f./center variety.

As far as Thad, I think he will be fine and not being aloud to play serious pickup ball this summer due to his f.a. status may be part of his slow start. I agree with Eddies that an end of the roster move for Keith Benson, for example could allow for better practices at least because for all we know Battie can't even do that everyday.

get a long athletic big to put NEXT to him, not replace him

Yes, that's pretty simple

eddies' heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Dec 31 at 13:43

Don't have time to look it up - Benson that used to play at Texas A&M? If so, he had range pretty far out didn't he, just like this management/staff seems to like?

deepsixersuede reply to eddies' heady's on Dec 31 at 14:45

He is a small college [Oakland] shot blocking pogo stick who was waived from Atlanta. Two years away from contributing, ala Brackins, but of a skillset needed here.

Also shameful, from a team effort (I guess) was the defensive rebounding as the game was coming to an end, the Jazz got a few too many second chances in the fourth quarter

I guess this is because at the beggining of the game is easier with more stamina to battle the big frontcourt of Utah but as the game goes on, the 76ers were the small, skinny ones it takes a toll, I know they are pros and stuff but to keep a bigger guy with more athleticism all game from rebound is tough, my body said so everytime I played in this conditions and Im good athlete..

Those are great excuses

Sixers always have excuses for why they lose

BTW - I think Brian wrote in the game preview last night that tonights game starts at 10 eastern time, it starts at 9 even though it's in california

Interesting article on hoopshype regarding the magics offense using moving picks (illegal as they are) as part of their offense (and an aside as to how Big Baby learned to excel at it from the bitches in boston)


Did anyone notice that Brand's first 2 fouls were both "and 1" for the Jazz? That's more worrying than his inability to finish under the rim, that yesterday reached new, pathetic lows. I feel really sad for the guy, clearly his legs are not there, my Q is: will they ever be? At least at last year's level, I mean?
Speaking of Iguodala (and not of his FT shooting, because that would be too "easy"...), anyone noticed that Hayward scored over him in the decisive shot? They run a nice play, though

Really impressed with how Anthony Davis defends the P and R. He plays off like Hawes, but just swallows the ball-handler if he decides to go to the rim.

deepsixersuede reply to Rich on Dec 31 at 14:55

I rewatched last nights game and totally disagree with the Favors love, in spite of the fact I wanted him on draft night.

I counted 8 changed shots and 2 detered shots that Hawes caused last night defensively and 3 to 4 that Favors caused. And Favors scored 2 baskets, at most , where Hawes was directly on him that weren't jumpers.

If Hawes plays like this the rest of the year and becomes our future center than finding the right compliment to him, like Mahorn to Gminski, will be this organizations job to do.

I'll take the 20 yr old athlete; you can take the finesse, contract-driven center with a friendly coach on a center poor team. Meet ya in 3 years at tip-off.

deepsixersuede reply to Dollar Bill on Dec 31 at 15:47

My point is center may not be an issue if Hawes' play continues. A Hawes[current edition] and Favors 5/4 would be great but when Brian says Favors is a very good player and Hawes wins player of the game by default it sounds like it was a lopsided contest between the two.

I hope an athletic big like Favors is there when we pick but other than Mason Plumlee that may not be possible. Rich , what bigs that won't go top ten [Davis, Drummond] do you like?

Did you notice Wallace blow by Iguodala baseline (left side) in Q1 of opener? Happens, but it runs contrary to 'stopper' reputation.

He's had a little trouble fighting through screens early on. Hayward had a nice night against him too.

The Greek on Dec 31 at 16:09

I just wish that Iguodala could hit free throws like he did when he was a rookie.

He was really only good in his third year (82%), though I'd take 74% right now over the high 60's.

amazing information :)

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