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Sixers Leave Their Legs In Philly

Oh, one thing I forgot. The Knicks have, without a doubt, the worst starting front court in the NBA. Fields is beyond useless w/out a PG to set him up, and Shumpert couldn't set a table.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 0:42

Backcourt, you mean. Shumpert will never be a point, but I think he'll make a decent two guard. He looks the part of an athletic NBA 2 guard, at least.

While you were at the game, Cousins had 21 on 11 shots and a career-high 19 rebounds, 14 defensive, in a road win over Toronto. Also had 5 turnovers and 4 fouls. Isaiah Thomas with 20 and 6 assists off the bench. John Lucas had 25, 8 and 8 for the Bulls in Rose's absence - on 28 shots. (C.J. Watson's also hurt.) Kobe had his second straight 40-point night. The Nets got 49 points from the unlikely twosome of Anthony Morrow and Jordan Farmar.

Saw that Cousins line. Impressive, except for the 9 TO+PF.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 0:51

Favors fouled out yesterday in 22 minutes, pushed his fouls average back up to rookie levels.

4.8/36? That's not that bad. Cousins is at 6.7. No fouls in 12 minutes tonight for Favors.

Also, great job w/ the game thread in my absence tonight. Thanks, guys.

Broken record stoned81: Can someone please explain for me the justification for still starting Meeks?

I'm not trying to be annoying, and I apologize in advance if I am. I just can't figure out how this is still going on.

9 out of 10 games we have started poorly. Meeks is not shooting well at all this year (save for 2 good quarters in 10 games). His defense and rebounding is nonexistent. The frequently offered reason for him starting is "floor spacing," but he always seems to be wide open in the first 6 minutes, so what exactly is he "spacing"? He's not being guarded. And even if I conceded for the sake of argument that he does "space the floor," well what good is floor spacing if it results in poor starts in 9 out of 10 games? Either "floor spacing" is worthless or we're not actually getting it, but either way, I don't see one valid reason for starting Meeks.

And I'm not saying this out of my favoritism towards Turner. Collins has given him the minutes I want to see two straight games, so I really don't have any complaints there right now. Collins keeps pointing out in the press conferences their stinky starts; tonight he said "Once again a bad start, down 13 this time." Well, do something about it Doug!

Tray reply to stoned81 on Jan 12 at 0:50

I just don't see how we can start a shooting guard who can't make a three. Right now what I see in Turner, playmaking and hustle aside, is a guy who uses a lot of possessions when he's on to the floor to very little effect. I'm increasingly afraid that eddie heady's comparisons to Calbert Cheaney make a lot of sense. Here's a guy who doesn't have a money mid-range jumper, can't shoot from long range at all, and doesn't play above the rim/isn't very quick. Everything with him is way too hard.

Holiday can make threes. And lots of starting shooting guards are not good 3-point shooters. Other than Ray Allen, the top 3-point shooters in the league every year tend to be 3-point specialists coming off the bench.

And Meeks' 3-point skills are getting us anywhere at the start of the game. I think it would benefit Meeks to come off the bench too, less pressure and I've noticed Iggy and Jrue seem more hesitant to pass to him lately. It might help him to be out there with different guys.

Tray reply to stoned81 on Jan 12 at 1:46

How many starting shooting guards cannot make threes, period?

He made 30% last year, so hyperbole central. He just spent a summer completely re-working a shot he'd been taking a certain way for 17 years (assuming he started shooting at age 5). It takes time.

Seth reply to stoned81 on Jan 12 at 0:57

I think they're just starting Meeks so they can bring Turner in off the bench. Meeks and Lou both function as shooters for the Sixers and they are also both kind of undersized and defense is not their forte. Turner has size and is a good defender. Lou is a sparkplug type player, a good fit for the sixth man role. He's best in small doses. If, say, Ryan Anderson (6' 10" shooter on Orlando) (I'm just using him as an example of a shooter with size) was on the roster instead of Meeks, the situation would be different. Well no shit. But basically I'm saying Meeks is starting so that Turner, Lou, and Thad can all come in and play together, and so that the Sixers can maintain some flexibility with the size of the guys on the court. If Turner was starting instead of Meeks you'd be opening with a pretty big team on the floor and you'd then be forced to go small when you go to your bench.

I see your points. Good points. I certainly agree with Lou in small doses (I'm hoping the dosage expires when he opts out at the end of this season). And I can see the theory of Meeks having more of a role with the starters. But it's not working. Every single game, we stink at the start. It seems like we're more wedded too "he fits best with the starters" than what's actually happening in the first 6 minutes of every game.

I think you can still have flexibility with Meeks off the bench, because Turner can play 3 positions. Start Turner, and then you could bring in Meeks to replace Turner or Jrue or Iggy depending on who looks lost or cold.

Seth reply to stoned81 on Jan 12 at 1:14

"I think you can still have flexibility with Meeks off the bench, because Turner can play 3 positions. Start Turner, and then you could bring in Meeks to replace Turner or Jrue or Iggy depending on who looks lost or cold."

Word. It goes both ways.

jswigga on Jan 12 at 0:44

PS. Love that you called Shumpert "Garbage."

he is, of course, I just haven't heard that since I left philly. Miss you brothers.

jkay reply to jswigga on Jan 12 at 9:48

nahh, it's mostly just reaction to his ridiculous NY hype. I like him but he has terrible handles though. No point in his future. BBall IQ may be lacking. Backup material.

OK, the rotation chart has been added up top (click expand to see full story if it's contracted).

2-3 zone on Jan 12 at 0:58

I'd like your guys opinion on a little discussion me and a friend were having. He said if he was the gm of the Knicks he wouldn't trade Carmelo Anthony for Iguodala and Holiday, and i told him he was crazy. I'd like your guys opinion on that. If you were the Knicks and an offer of Iguodala and Holiday was made for Carmelo would you make the trade?

Yeah, the Knicks would be a much better team. Don't think they'd do it though, pretty sure the Sixers wouldn't either, or at least I hope they wouldn't.

Knicks would definitely not make the trade. Carmelo brings celebrities into the arena, Jrue/Iggy do not.

Tracy Morgan and Spike Lee go either way. The next biggest star tonight was Donnie Wahlburg, and I know for a fact he was there to see Jrue and Iguodala.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 1:45

I saw Woody Allen on the Comcast broadcast.

Yeah, at this point Wahlburg is a bigger star.

Actually, Darryl Strawberry got the biggest reaction. He came out to do a countdown prior to the intros, counted down until they turned the lights out. He was wearing a sick Cosby sweater.

Stephen A. was there was well, left early in the third quarter.

Tray reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 1:58

Really? Woody Allen's a legend. What is Mark Wahlberg's brother even famous for, some tv work?

If the knicks make the nba finals - that would bring fans

A better point guard and a non ball hogging iso small forward gives them that chance

Haha, we all know Tracy Morgan is a diehard Andres Nocioni fan now Brian.

Keep shooting, Shump!

MCT reply to Rich on Jan 12 at 1:20

I thought I remembered this so I Googled it - Turner and Shumpert were teammates in middle school:


Whoever taught these kids how to shoot should be banned from coaching youth basketball.

I want to see if Turner can grow into the new role Collins has him playing in. I like that he is getting to the rim but he missed way to many open jumpshots. Can anyone explain why he can get a foul called when he takes contact?

And am I the only person who notice Lou seemed to be pouting whenever he was pulled out of the game?

I also noticed Lou pouting. If I were Thorn I'd trade him because he has value and his pouting indicates an extreme likelihood that he'll opt out after this season. If he's going to walk, why wouldn't you trade him? If Dwight Howard can get traded because he's likely to leave, surely LouWill can get traded.

Turner gets no respect from the refs. I get that he's a young player but it's less respect than almost anyone I've ever seen. He did get 2 surprising calls in the 4th quarter.

For the same reason that didn't make any significant moves this off season, they like the build of the roster, and the chance to maybe win a round in the playoffs, and while I'm sure you all are right being able to tell Lou was pouting on the television, he's played well this year, the sixers have won when he played well, and he's a key piece of this teams start...he's really the only guy on the team who can 'get a basket' when the team needs one, usually (couldn't last night, but they shot for shiz last night as a team). And he's even playing better this year than he has other years, more willing to give up the ball to the open man...

I'm not a lou fan but he's a valuable asset on a team everyone here seems excited about...

Yeah, I don't see a move with him happening either. Lou is too central to what they are trying to do this season. If I'm picking anyone to be moved it's unfortunately Turner. He does some nice things, but he doesn't energize the team off the bench. Lou and Thad have been able to completely shift the momentum of things at times which has been invaluable considering how flat they've come out in nearly every game. If Collins establishes Turner's value by continuing to give him a steady role then I can see Thorn trying to swing him for a big closer to the deadline.

Dwight reply to Cin on Jan 12 at 10:23

I wonder if the jazz would agree to a turner favors swap. They have plenty of big men but they need a creator on offense. Plus raja bell isnt exactly lighting it up from the 2 spot

Stan reply to Dwight on Jan 12 at 10:28

They wouldn't do that. He was the centerpiece in the Deron trade. They might however consider trading Kanter.

eddies' heady's reply to Cin on Jan 12 at 10:37

"If I'm picking anyone to be moved it's unfortunately Turner. He does some nice things, but he doesn't energize the team off the bench."

So demoralizing to read statements/opinions like this. High pick, and can't even really make a difference off the bench. Sigh..

Really wish Thorn would have been hired two months earlier and I don't think the team would be in this position to have to trade for a big, we'd likely already have one. Though I do have the same thoughts as you about wondering if Doug is trying to increase his value by giving him an increased better-suited role, although I don't see any way he can bring back a big in a deal unless he's just a project-type one.

bebopdeluxe reply to eddies' heady's on Jan 12 at 11:35

Watching Turner grow out on the floor, with his ability to guard the perimeter, handle the basketball and be a one-man rebounder/fast-breaking machine, why the f would we want to move him?

Why can't Jrue be the dagger-thrower from 3 in the guts of the game? Why can't JTI be the backbone of the best perimeter defense in the NBA? Why are people - at a time that this team is as exciting as it has been in YEARS - looking to move arguably one of our most-talented guys for somebody who may not even be necessary to acquire by the summer?

I just don't get it.

eddies' heady's reply to bebopdeluxe on Jan 12 at 12:21

I say this kindly. One - he's too redundant and doesn't fit well, hence why Doug brings him off the bench instead of throwing him out there with Dre and Jrue because of a glaring fact you left out that he can't shoot which greatly minimizes the threat he poses.

Two - when our post weakness is majorly exposed in the playoffs you'll get it then.

Three - if you're happy with an early round playoff exit, then fine keep him, if you want to look past the trees to see the forest of this more-exciting-than-its-been in years team, you'd be on board with moving him for an integral big.

Four - Jrue's skillset is not best used in spotting up as a dagger thrower from 3. My feelings are this team best functions when he's controlling the ball more times than not - sure he has major lapses, but the kid is still really young and growing into the position at a pretty decent pace if you factor his age into it.

Five - when our post weakness is majorly exposed in the playoffs you'll get it then.

bebopdeluxe reply to eddies' heady's on Jan 12 at 13:35

1) I don't see why JTI is "redundant". When the three of them are on the floor, they have one of the best perimeter defenses in the NBA...and if you have been paying attention for the past, oh, let's say 10 years (since the days of Eric Snow, Aaron McKie and George Lynch), they Sixers perimeter defense has been a freaking sieve (unless you pine for the days of AI, Salmons and Korver);

2) While I am always up for improving our low-post defense, I just don't see this current team - with the minutes that guys like Thad and Hawes are getting (and the assumption that Brand is still gonna, you know, PLAY) having the minutes available for the STUD defender that you are going to get for Turner;

3) Pretty f'n cocky of you with the "if you are happy with an early-round playoff exit" comment (and, BTW, nice tweak there with early-vs-first...I would be happy this season with losing in 6-7 games to the Heat or Bulls in the EC semis...how about you?). You have NO idea what I would be happy with. For me, this season is about taking the next step. Winning the division. Playing games in May that MATTER. Making this team desirable this summer for signing a FA impact big after amnestying Brand...and we can do that without moving Turner.

4) MY feeling is that Jrue doesn't have to move the ball on EVERY FREAKING POSSESSION for this offense to be effective. MY feeling is that Jrue kinda likes hitting 3's in the guts of the game (like he did in DWade's grill in Game 4). MY feeling is to not exploit that facet of the game - letting him be the closer - is utterly idiotic. He can do it. He WANTS to do it. And his ability to grow into a closer is MUCH easier when you have another guy on the floor who can 1) handle the ball in crunch time and 2) provide his own ability to create off the bounce (sorry, Iggy...that's not you);

5) Even though I think the true answer to our post defens issues will have to wait until this summer, I am not waking up in a cold sweat worrying about how we are going to get blasted in the playoffs because of our low-post issues. I worry more about having a closer on offense...and trading Turner for Favors does SQUAT to address that.

You spent ALL LAST SEASON absolutely KILLING Turner on this forum. ALL the time. EVERY chance you got. If you cannot see that Turner is a materially more confident player now than he was last year, then you are not as smart or as perceptive a basketball observer as either of us think you are. As long as Hawes' back is not a chronic thing that will linger all season, I think that between Hawes, Vucevic and Brand, we will have enough low-post defense to have a solid year and have a fair amount of success in the playoffs. For me, the thing that will keep them from going deep - as I said earlier - is not their low-post defense...it is not having a "closer"

In Game 5 of the EC semis against either the Bulls or Heat...tie score with a minute to go on the road...your biggest worry is our low-post defense? Really?

eddies' heady's reply to bebopdeluxe on Jan 12 at 20:59

Guess I'll start at the top of your reply and go down.

1) You throw this perimeter defense thing around frequently while conveniently ignoring there's another end to the court. If two of those guys weren't redundant don't you really think Doug and the staff would be starting ET? Doug's said as much in multiple interviews.

2) Huh? With the stud defender in place why would you need to play Spencer freakin' Hawes all those minutes. Or EB. You won't, end of story.

3) I never said I had an idea of what you'd be happy with, notice the word "if" as a preface. And no, I wouldn't be "happy" if they lose in the 2nd round. Anything short of another long-awaited championship doesn't bring me the slightest bit of happiness. Will I enjoy the journey and be proud of the team making it just a wee bit further? Sure, cause I love the game and team that much. But "happy" with what amounts to an incremental step? No. ............ and I'm not convinced in the slightest that this will be a desirable destination for free agents this summer, no matter the showing in the playoffs this year, much less an impact big.

4) Maybe he will be, maybe he won't, but I don't see Jrue's abilities best used in a team concept format as a closer. Yes, he has capatilities to do it on some nights, but feel he is best served being the controller of the team ALONG with closing it out from time to time as a scorer. Andre, as you mentioned, can handle the ball in crunch time OR if we exchange ET out for that stud big you speak of he can kick it out to Jrue just as the guy (ET) creating off the bounce can.

5) I concede that trading Favors (who mentioned him?) for Turner does squat to address that closer, but on the flip side, keeping Turner does SQUAT to address the much-needed closer too. So...

Turner being a "materially more confident player" doesn't carry a whole lot of weight with me. It doesn't necessarily translate into team success just because the kid's more confident. Feeling better about yourself and being more comfortable doesn't supercede how he meshes and fits with the other more prominent guys. Team cohesion and balance is way more important to me than an individual's comfort level.

As for your last paragraph, you're missing the forest for the trees again. It won't be a tie score on the road vs either of those teams if you've got the post presence. His presence throughout the whole game will hopefully have you far enough ahead. But say it is tied and we somehow have this closer you're referencing, last I checked LeBron James or Ronnie Brewer are very capable defenders to lock down said "closer".

Anyway, your continued questioning and belittling of my discerning eye for hoops is of no consequence here. Whereas, your unusual inflated infatuation over one INDIVIDUAL player, Evan Turner, has morphed into a consequence and turned comedic. Seriously.

Of all the players that have come and gone through this franchise during the tenure of my fandom, I am beyond flabbergasted at your lovefest over such an average player. I love this team wholeheartedly, I would assume you do, why the continued venom-spews over SIMPLE differences of opinion of ONE guy on the WHOLE team? You think he's gonna be a star, I think he is what he is and has shown, there's no need to attach yourself personally to him and place a stranglehold on my criticism of such.

My obsession is the team and its' success; your obsession 'appears' to be Evan Turner, and my prolonged dissatisfaction of him and his fit on this particular squad.

We're supposedly on the same side here, the Sixers side, let's not lose sight of that.

bebopdeluxe reply to eddies' heady's on Jan 12 at 23:01

Look...I understand the need for a go-to low-post guy. Really - I do. In retrospect, had they taken Favors instead of Turner, that would have been fine. It looks like Favors is going to be a really good player eventually. But I do not blame the Sixers to take the guy at 2 that they felt was the surest thing...a guy that - even at worst - would be a solid NBA player.

For me, I really like JTI as a unit...a lot. All three guys defend. All three guys can initiate the play. All three guys can pass the basketball. It gives you multiple ballhandlers in the guts of the game, while not sacrificing anything on the defensive end. The great thing is that the Sixers can keep all three - AND sign a max contract big guy this summer if they amnesty Brand (with a few bucks left over to sign a defense-first PF to split time with Thad). A front court with Thad, Vucevic and the two bigs you sign this summer should blend with JTI pretty nicely - don't you think?

eddies' heady's reply to bebopdeluxe on Jan 12 at 23:23

Sure, they blend nicely down the stretch, but if your go-to max free agent big is doubled who's shooting? Sure hope it isn't Dre or Evan.

I'm of the same mindset as Collins that they don't blend so well at the start and throughout other parts of the game though.

And again, just because we may have max money available doesn't equal a free agent definitely coming here - a free agent big at that. I hope like hell I'm wrong and one does, but I see nothing to lead me to believe one will with these supposed other attractive destinations these guys are crowing about wanting to go to.

Ergo, if we could use a guy like ET who's only providing us spot minutes off the bench while defending very well, to fetch us a big, how can anyone not get on board with that? (though as I admitted above in another comment I don't see him having enough value to bring back an established big) It would cure a lot of ills - defensively and offensively - down the stretch and throughout the course of the game.

There's no way Utah would do it, but it's a no-brainer. You trade Turner for Favors in the blink of an eye right now. Heck, you even throw in this year's first rounder if that's what it takes.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jan 13 at 8:14

I would make that trade as well...but I am not going to dwell on the past. I do still think that Turner has the ability to develop into an end-of-game closer - the guy has played less than 100 NBA games. Iguodala has had - what - 7-8 years?

mchezo reply to KellyDad on Jan 12 at 11:32

lou was definitely pouting, pure speculation but the lack of calls and the lack of touches prevented lou from being assertive. turner brought the ball up the entire time he was in the game. lou only brought the ball up three or four times if that many. Lou only took 6 shots and had 1 assist no turnovers and did not get to the free throw line AT ALL. For whatever reason lou did not get anywhere near the touches he usually gets and that probably contributed to his pouting.

Then he needs to get over it

Brief thoughts regarding the game:

- They looked really tired and they missed Hawes offensively.
- The Knicks i think played out of their mind defensively. This is the best defense i've seen from them in a very very long time. Of course that's great defense for their standards (not the best teams in the league). Also, i had the feeling that all they shot were contested jump shots and somehow too many of them were going in. I think the Sixers win this game 8 out of 10 times, unfortunately this was one of the bad nights.
- Turner looked like the best player on our team. both defensively and offensively. He was the only guy who looked able to create a good look for a shot tonight or get to the rim. He is my POTG.
- Iguodala's defense was great, but he needs to work on his FTs. He missed some free throws in key moments that really killed the momentum of the team.
- Lou came back to earth and had a bad night. Luckily, he didn't waste too many shots. If he contains himself (or Collins does it for him) when he is off, he can have a really big impact on the team.
- Thad as usual was really good. I am beginning to think that contract might have been a steal.
- Vucevic is slowly showing signs of a rookie. He makes some unnecessary fouls at times, but in general i am still very encouraged by his play. Especially his rebounding which has been superb every single game.

All in all, an expected loss on the 5th game in 6 nights, but a loss is a loss. They need to regroup and fly over Washington during the weekend. Keep the sensational defense, share the ball on offense and you will win.

Oh and one more thing about Snumpert. He looks like a capable player, but he is definitely not a PG. He is a solid defender, but very inconsistent shooter. Offensively he is very inefficient right now, we will see if he can fix that going forward. Rotation player for sure, but definitely not deserving so much attention.

He still has a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses that he did in college, but whose impact is being overrated by the NY hype. Like you said, his defense and athleticism make him a rotation player for sure, but his offensive game is far too incomplete to be considered a starter now, especially at point guard.

jkay reply to Xsago on Jan 12 at 10:01

The Knicks i think played out of their mind defensively

Regarding this, I re-watched some game tape from 2nd half last night. It seems the Knicks definitely tried harder but they were not without old habits like switching on every pick. We just never took advantage of it. What they do well is that they recover and pack the paint on any drive. Hands are outstretched to pick the ball off any movement in the paint area too. That is why we shot so many jumpshots; they forced us too. DC in his post game talked about how they tried to keep the ball on one side of the court. Saw that too.
The main difference I see (and what a world of difference one good defender can make) is Chandler who kept watching the ball and positioning himself to block all the interior passing lanes. That made the Knicks defense strong. He is gonna be really good for them.

eddies' heady's reply to jkay on Jan 12 at 10:22

really? you honestly think they "forced" us to shoot all those jumpers?

As Brian mentioned, we hardly ever swung the ball around the perimeter, or even flashed anyone to the foul line as that area was open alot as far out as they were extending their D.

wrong word; 'discouraged' would be better.
was just giving them some credit I think is due. Most of it is on us, yes.

eddies' heady's reply to jkay on Jan 12 at 10:43

oh, i totally agree that they deserve credit - if for nothing else but completely taking us out of everything we were accustomed to doing. I thought their defense was very very good. Although, we did let them dictate to us too much (as you say discourage) which puts that onus back on us. Just such an outlier of a game considering how good our ball movement and off ball movement had been up to this point. Wish it wasn't vs them :)

As i said they played great for their standards which are very low. It was an unusually good game for them on that end even with Chandler. I think they were motivated to beat the Sixers (hot division opponent) and well rested. The Sixers on the other hand were not only tired but they missed their starting C.

turner needs to work on his ball hog tendencies.

Spencer for hire on Jan 12 at 8:02

Now that Turner is scoring the ball better , a flip of Lou and Meeks makes sense to me. Let Meeks get open looks off of Turner's penetration and let Lou sit on the wing to start games.

Lou's minutes don't have to go up, just use him at a different time. It just makes sense to me when the starters need a consistant scorer and Turner needs the ball.

By the way , our 3 pt. shooting, as a team, has been pretty good without Meeks being a factor this year. If he starts hitting lookout.

eddies' heady's reply to Spencer for hire on Jan 12 at 10:55

I've thought about this a couple of times this year. I like the idea of Lou starting. I mean, if Jodie can be hidden on defense to a degree between Jrue and Andre, then why not Lou?

And as little as Meeks has been providing so far, along with the team appearing not to run any curls/screens/plays for him, then what's the point besides keeping the defense honest ala spacing?

Pull Lou in a little bit and let him know it will be a different role meaning he doesn't have to try and get so many shots up. It would be a different dynamic for sure, two guys who can make threes and penetrate/get their own shot in Lou and Jrue.

The bench would arguably be weaker w/o Lou, but that tradeoff should be a push or net gain if Lou strengthens the starters with his ability to catch-and-shoot, get his own shot, get to the line off contact, make an occasional 3, and draw-and-dish. I really like this idea.

My thoughts.

I think the loss of Hawes prevented us from getting into our offense effectively.
Ref's treated the Sixers same way the pacers were treated in Philly on Monday. Road team getting bullied early by the home team due to the ref's allowing the home team to push them around. The finese games of Jrue & Lou were really affected by this. When Lou didn't get the early calls his frustration took him out of the game.
Too many missed gimmes in the 4th qtr. Looked like the same old sixers. No player to make the big shots. Maybe, Turner will be that guy? Really like Iggy's game this year. If he could only make his foul shots. Frustrating but still have hope.............

Marcus reply to sfw on Jan 12 at 10:06

I thought the refs did a bad job against the sixers alot of bs imo. I still believe carmelo is top 5 over rated player in the league.

I just glanced at the Sixers contracts at storytellerscontracts.com at saw that Thad actually isn't signed with the maximum percentages. It's a rising contract but only rises from 8 to 9.2 million in year 5. If i am not mistaken if the maximum percentages are used the contract would go from 7.2 in year 1 to around 10 million in year 5. I wonder what that means about the management plans. The only possibilities i can think of are:

- They are worried they will be in the tax zone in a few years, so they are trying to limit the damage.
- They want to have more cap space 3-4 years from now and that's when they think they should make a splash.
- They can still offer Howard a max deal so they thought they can even it out on a per year basis learning from Iguodala and Brand
- Thad wanted money asap!

was at the game. really felt that turner was responsible for messing up the flow. he had the rock in his hands way too much. jrue, although tired, really should have had the ball and attacked the rim. such an ugly game.

eddies' heady's on Jan 12 at 9:50

Looks like the off-the-ball transition for Turner has been completely scrapped (for good reason as he struggles to get separation), so is it finally time to come around on him being the backup PG, as I said and was ridiculed for all of last year?

It's hard to argue with it considering how much they've placed the ball in his hands this year, even with Jrue on the floor with him. I'd agree that Jrue has been rather careless with the ball and too loose at other times, but I was not hoping to see Jrue's ballhandling responsibilities minimized at the expense of giving it to Turner. Andre's point forward role appears to have diminished, if not vanished, also as a result of giving Turner the ball.

Though I still adamantly feel it's Turner's best role, it's just disappointing to see that it looks like the staff has come to the realization that ball-dominance should take precedence over what I would assume they felt they were drafting him for - SG, off the ball.

I think (and hope) that will change once Jrue finds his game and is consistent.

Andres point forward role hasnt diminished. In fact his best contribution to the offense is his passing ability

I disagree with you on his off-the-ball movement. I think he moved quite well without the ball in his hands last night. I don't think anyone in the offense runs off screens with the intention of shooting other than Meeks and that's something Collins has seemingly established. He tries to rotate defenders, catch defenders out of position, drop it to Hawes on the high block, or isolate Brand down low. Other than that the purpose of his screens are just to get the ball in someones hands on the perimeter. I would trust Turner to run off screens and take mid-range jumpers, but that's not Collins offense.

He was drafted for being the half-court threat the team desperately needed and he was drafted so highly because of his efficiency on that end along with his passing, rebounding, and defense. Nobody would ever draft him to play off the ball, it just doesn't make sense.

eddies' heady's reply to Cin on Jan 12 at 11:10

I don't necessarily disagree, particularly with Collins' sets and offense this year. Is the reason Collins' doesn't run anyone besides Meeks off screens because of Turner's failures to adapt to that role though? It's kind of a catch 22. Is that part of the reason why we're seeing these high block Hawes' handoffs so much this year? Collins stated early last year that Evan's job was to get better at an off the ball role and settle into it, which he obviously hasn't done.

But if he was drafted because of a desperately needed half-court threat and efficient doing it, but in the same breath you say he would never be drafted to play off the ball, where would you surmise the team expected him to be that "half-court threat" from then? Certainly not point or small forward, I think you'd agree.

bebopdeluxe reply to eddies' heady's on Jan 12 at 11:40

Why can't Turner be the ball handler and Jrue be the 3-point threat in the guts of the game?

Is it because Jrue was drafted to be the POINT GUARD and Turner was drafted to be the SHOOTING GUARD, and by God I'm gonna pound that fucking square peg into that fucking round hole until it fits?

Well, I mean, Jrue at the point isn't a square peg into a round hole. You're saying we should put the better player at his weaker position so the lesser player can feel more comfortable, which I'm not sure is a smart plan for the most important parts of the game.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 11:49

My point, Brian, is that the best lineup for this team IMO is having JTI out there in the guts of the game - as much for their defense as for their offense. Any lineup that has either Lou or Meeks out there at crunch-time is so inferior to JTI in terms of defense that the trade-off is not worth it.

And if that is the case, if you are asking me which of the two guys - Jrue or ET - is better suited to be a dagger thrower, it is Jrue...so why not let him play off the ball as much as he plays on the ball?

Van Lier and Sloan...Frazier and Monroe...they weren't PG and SG...they were GUARDS. If the Sixers are most effective - defensively - when JTI is out there in the guts of the game, then isn't it worth the trade-off to let BOTH Jrue and Turner work on AND off the ball?

when JTI is out there in the guts of the game, then isn't it worth the trade-off to let BOTH Jrue and Turner work on AND off the ball?

I think they already do. Ball handling duties are pretty fluid when all 3 are on the floor. Depends on who is doing well that game.

I'm not saying they shouldn't play together, I was saying I don't think it's a good idea to put them in the Turner PG, Jrue SG roles, which was your suggestion.

I think their offense is more fluid than that, and the strength of having those three guys on the floor is that any one of them can initiate.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 12:17

My suggestion was simply not to think of Jrue and ET as PG and SG, respectively..and then view everything that they do (and CAN do) within that strict definition. The beauty is that I think both guys can play BOTH roles...so let them do that.

eddies' heady's reply to Cin on Jan 12 at 22:18

Interested to hear your response addressing my last paragraph in my previous reply to you?

Now hes ball dominant instead of too passive, huh? Seriously, I sat really close to the floor last night and the whole team was stagnant. Everyone wasn't running their sets, Lou was being uncharacteristically locked down, Thad takes a million jumpers, Brand can't make a foul line jumper to to save his life, Tony Battie had to log some time, Jrue stopped taking over, and somehow this is Turners fault because if his 'ball dominance.'

He wasnt dominating the ball last night, he was the one with the ball at the end if sets who has to make sonething happen. I really dont understand how being the only guy to get fo the tin save Iguodala needs to be criticized. He took like 1 bad shot,, and again looked like he was playing good defense.

They just were gassed last night, plain and simple.

eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jan 12 at 21:05

Dude, you really need to get over it. Nowhere in that comment was I referencing last night's game specifically or placing fault on your beloved. It was a generalization of the games to this point and his changed role from last year. The role I stated time and again that he was best suited for which appears to be coming to fruition. That's all.

3-in-3 schedule, lousy Q1 & last 3 minutes of 3rd decided game.

Q3, Knicks up by 2, 58-56.
3:07 CA fg
2:40 CA fg
2:17 AI "I'm a star too" 3-pt miss
1:54 CA drb
1:06 CA drb
1:05 CA ft
1:05 CA ft
End of 3rd, Knicks up by 11, 67-56. Ball game, a 'CA besting AI burst' residual.

I understand you're trying to drive home your point but really it was that Harrelson 3 (that stretched the lead from 8 to 11) that sank our ship. Anthony assist on that one, so that works too.

A 3-pt shot on top of an 8-pt lead is certainly not a hindrance, but the turbocharger was CA.

I dont think the sixers had a good scouting report on harrelson. Vucevic kept 10feet off him every time

With such a condensed schedule, scouting reports usually don't go deeper than starters + 1-2 bench players (maybe it's different for the Sixers because the bench is a major strength). A few days ago Bosh was asked about a player who played well against them (a rookie like Harellson) and he admitted they didn't have him in the scouting report.

I watched the first half and missed the entire 2nd half except for the final 4 minutes. Iguodala clearly outperformed Melo in the clutch moments of the game.

Based on the first half Shumpert looked like a really good defender. The Knicks were pressuring the ball and it seemed to hurt the Sixers.

I hate unathletic big men who chuck up shots- They are usually innefective but they always seem to kill the Sixers (Antoine Walker, Glenn Robinson, Ryan Anderson)

I don't understand why the Knicks were playing iso with Melo and Iguodala late in the game. Their screen and pick and rolls were very effective in the first half.

Thad looked tired, Jrue looked careless.

Thad missed an open jumper and Evan missed two free throws in the final minutes of the game. Can't have that.

And Evan was 'careless' or maybe they were all just tired which makes one careless, Most of the sixers who went to the line in the fourth quarter missed key free throws including an 0 for 2 trip from Iguodala at one point.

Still believe the game was lost in the first quarter / early second with that scoring drought, only so many times you can make a run after three days in a row.

"Iguodala clearly outperformed Melo in the clutch moments of the game." A dubious conclusion when you didn't watch the key minutes of the game - last 6+ of Q3 - when the obverse of your position was true.

Melo's clean 3 at the start of game was Knick-positive on the psychological warfare front. End of Q1 - Knicks 28, Sixers 15.

Iguodala played hard, though not always effectively. Premier scorers are tough to counter for an entire game.

Pretty funny, the stretch you're talking about in the third, Anthony hit three circus shots w/ Iguodala right on him. Why don't we look at the entire second half:

3rd Q:

- turnover
- 15-footer (2)
- missed jumper
- missed jumper
- missed tip/made tip (2)
- made jumper (2)
- turnover
- made jumper (2)
- made jumper (2)
- missed jumper
- fouled by thad on other end of the floor (2)

4th quarter

- missed 3
- fouled by thad (2)
- turnover
- blocked shot
- fouled by brand (2)
- missed 3
- missed jumper
- turnover
- missed layup
- missed jumper
- fouled intentionally (2)

total of 18 points on 22 possessions. 6/15 from the floor, 8/8 from the line, 4 turnovers.

And really, when he was Iguodala's responsibility, we're talking about 14 points on 20 possessions, 6/15 from the floor, 4/4 from the line, 4 turnovers.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 11:44

That's what I saw too.

They had to come back from 15+ deficits twice...which is a lot to ask of any team - especially one who was playing its 5th game in 6 nights.

In a 7-game series, the Sixers beat the Knicks.

It's not worth dwelling too much on this game...need to get the next 3.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but with a healthy Spencer Hawes last night, the sixers probably beat the knicks.

There was a lot of good to be seen in last nights game

"Why don't we look at the entire 2nd half" ... because the game was over by the time Iggy (8:59) & Melo (7:46) re-entered in Q4: 8:59 left; Knicks 78, Sixers 61. Job finished. 4th Q activity, academic.

9-24, 8-8, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals, 5 TO.
5-11, 5-8, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 steals, 4 TO.
I'll take the top one, thank you.

That's just wrong - if the sixers hit some free throws down the stretch the game probably goes to overtime at least

Differing perspectives, left coast and right coast. Sixers never had control of that game. If ifs and buts... .

And the knicks had a nice run early but couldn't ever pull away due to poor ball handling and great defense...there's no way to say the game was over when you said it was as the sixers had every opportunity to win the game.

There is a way, as I've already said it. And so did the final score.

Your position is understood.

Court_visioN reply to Dollar Bill on Jan 12 at 14:39

Nice. Things become facts because you say them. Its also possible to say your argument is wrong. Mostly because I said so. You're wrong.

A little bit of a disappointing loss, but I didn't see anything from the Knicks that scared me going forward.

You can't score in the 70's against those guys and expect to win.

I liked what I saw from Iguodala - he didn't back down from Anthony at all. These games against the Knicks are going to be fun.

Meeks is annoying. I could tolerate him if he was a consistent shooter, but he is very streaky. He misses wide open shots and teams don't even respect him. If the Sixers want floor spacing, they should use their trade exception on Reggie Williams. He hasn't logged in a single minute so far with Charlotte and they wouldn't be able to do this until the trade deadline. Even if he is a streaky shooter, he provides size and more servicable defense.

We need another big, Tony Battie looks like a peice of crap. Kryrlo Fesenko and Alexis Ajinca are still free agents. The might suck, but atleast they're not corpse like Battie.

eddies' heady's reply to Stan on Jan 12 at 11:17

Couldn't agree more on the Battie comment. Most puzzling thing this year/offseason of why the heck they felt a 'need' to bring him back, locker room influence be damned.

Achilles heels need treatment and medicine. Front office continues to let it throb.

mo speezy on Jan 12 at 10:53

I'm not too upset about the ultimate result: last game of a back-to-back-to-back, on the road, without our starting C. I do think the lack of ball movement on offense, though, is starting to get troubling. Seems like there's been a trend towards more one-on-one / create separation and get a shot up (especially among Jrue/Turner, and of course Lou has always done this). Need guys to get back to being playmakers, right now seems a bit like everyone's just trying to get theirs.

In other news: the guy who writes the Knicks blog for ESPN NY is such a tool. Check out this ridiculously slanted paragraph from his post about the game (it appears in two different blog posts, actually):

TURNING POINT: It all started in the first quarter, when Anthony pushed Iguodala around on offense and defense. Going head to head, Melo scored nine points and had two steals, while Iggy had 0 points and three turnovers. After a quiet second quarter, going scoreless, Melo was back at it with Iggy and showed no mercy. After they were called for technical fouls in the third quarter, and Iggy clapped and said some words to Melo during a timeout, the Knicks' leading scorer went right at the Sixers' starting small forward. Melo scored 10 points and finished the period with a pass to Josh Harrellson for the baseline corner 3-pointer.

jkay reply to mo speezy on Jan 12 at 11:51

and what NY fan does not think the World of his Knicks and Melo?
Even if Melo is a prolific scorer, because he eats up so many possessions on offense and makes poor decisions, to me, he will never be a better player than Iguodala.
If you can get a disciplined veteran PG like Jason Kidd, to save him from himself, then watch out. But that's probably never gonna happen so I'm not worried.

You know, for all this talk of 'team first' and 'keep brand don't get howard' and 'see how it can be done' talk, if the sixers had an even above average scorer on the team, they probably win last nights game, they don't have a 'drought stopper', someone who can get to the rim and/or draw the fouls (rightly or wrongly) and last night showed why you need a guy like that. The defense / knicks sloppy play kept them in the game but there's no one on this team that even on an off night like last night can get those points when you need them...

Scott reply to GoSixers on Jan 12 at 11:38

Isnt that supposed to be lou williams?

I'm not saying that's what I think lou williams is, but isn't scoring the ball and getting to the line when we need it supposed to be his strength?

We really needed him to come through last night, but he didn't. I dont think it's his fault we lost, dont get me wrong.

I like Lou Williams for what he is, but he isn't that 'elite' type player, not to mention (again rightly or wrongly) he's not the 'get the questionable calls' kind of guy you need...it's just a fact whether you like it or not, the sixers don't get calls partly because they have no stars.

I'd prefer this scoring threat also play defense as well but it's an example of a game where a 'slump stopper' was needed.

Lou does typically get calls, not because he's a star, but because he's slight and he sells it.

Whether it's ideal or not, Lou is the slump buster on the team, he just couldn't do anything last night.

There are a lot of things you can point your finger at from last night and say, "that's why we lost." For me, it was Lou/Thad not being able to score. They really depend on that bench production, and it just wasn't there last night.

Except for evan turner who led the team in scoring ;)

I mean yeah - the 'offense' in general was the reason they lost last night but I'd love to hear someone associated with the team give an honest assessment why - if it's just the 3 in 3 - i'm fine with it - but there were a lot of mental lapses offensively that I HOPE were just down to being tired.

2 out of 3 - a 7-3 start - it's hard to find fault in that except an argument could be made that they 'should be' 9-1, even 10-0.

jay reply to GoSixers on Jan 12 at 12:58

If a drought stopper is what they need, and the Knicks allegedly have one if not two, why did they get into a drought as well?

I'm more than happy to trade for Dwight, but I just don't think the drought stopping thing is necessarily why we lost.

Because the sixers played great defense - the knicks did not play great defense - yet the knicks went on a 16-0 run early in the game and the sixers were in a hole the rest of the game (even with I think TWO 24 second violations in that 16-0 run for the knicks)

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 12:41

If you flip the minutes and shots taken by each, does it make a difference if Lou and Evan switched places last night? Meaning, Lou probably gets to the line more (on some of Evan's drives) with his ability to sell the foul and makes some of those 20 footer pullups which tends to be his sweet spot?

If you didn't see the game and hid the name in the tallys you'd swear Evan had Lou's line and Lou had Evan's line sans the rebounding.

Love the blog. I was impressed with the effort last night. They were a little stagnant on offense, settling for long range jumpers too much, and were scrambling a bit on defense early on, but in the 4th quarter they really put the clamps down. Very good sign with tired legs. Iggy was great on Melo. ET was very good in his drives. I think they need a 2 and/or a 4/5 for the playoffs. I really like the idea of a JR Smith or K-Mart in March for the MLE (if possible). I know they are not perfect fits for this team in terms of style of play but Smith would give them size and athleticism at the 2 along with streaky 3-point shooting. K-Mart could give them that rebounding, toughness aspect. This would put Meeks as the 3rd team guard which I think is where his talents belong.

I like the idea of Martin, not so sure about Smith. Wouldn't sign either of them for longer than the rest of this season, though.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 13:44

Agree on Martin...it would be nice to have some beef to throw around...just don't think he'd come here - there would probably be other opportunities to get more minutes.

I don't want Smith.

Is anyone else exhausted from watching three games in three nights? Jesus, I'm getting old. These games just take it out of me.

Like i said in the game thread, after the text alert from espn giving me the score at the end of the third - i skipped to 'live' on the dvr - skipping probably 9 minutes of game time in the third quarter - first minutes I haven't watched all year...it was kind of exhausting but it was also disheartening to watch too :)

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 12:37

C'mon man! Really? I was kind of disappointed this morning when waking up that I had to wait a whole day and a half for them to play again.

I'm loving it, but it's very tiring for me. Especially last night. I was falling asleep watching the Clippers/Heat, and I'm usually nocturnal. Didn't want to get out of bed this morning, either.

Back to backs are tough. You've got a preview post to write for the game, then the thread, then a wrap up, preview for the next day and thread for the next day as well. And the art for the game threads sometimes takes a long time to do. Lot of work, on top of kids/day job/wife. I'm burnt.

jkay reply to Brian on Jan 12 at 13:38

you work a day job too? I'm impressed that you're able to devote so much time and attention to this blog.

How about this.
Iguodala really did a huge job in fourth quarter against Melo.

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