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The "More Minutes For Turner" Discussion

Turner rules!!! Meeks is a kiss-ass!!!

Turtle Bay reply to spiller27 on Jan 29 at 19:43

I think in arguing for Turner receiving more playing time, you are also exaggerating quite a bit when it comes to Meeks. I've seen every Sixers game this season, and although I don't think Meeks is a great defender, I would say he is average, and definitely not "horrible" as you put it. That, combined with his elite 3 point shooting, warrants him about 20 minutes per game on THIS team, which definitely needs players to spread the floor (don't really get your argument that Meeks doesn't spread the floor because he makes open three point shots. Are you complaining that Meeks gets a lot of open looks? Would you prefer that defenders guarded him out there?).

I think your main problem with the way Collins is handling Turner is that he isn't a "starter." I get that. As a fan, and as a basketball player, you naturally think that the better player should be a starter. Try to get past that mentality and accept that Collins likes to have balanced units on the floor, and that necessitates him starting Meeks and bringing Turner off the bench.

Fair points. If Meeks played 20 minutes and Turner played 30 I'd be more satisfied.

I'm dead serious about this. Use it or your comments will be deleted until I get sick of deleting them. Then I'll just ban you and send you to Bleacher Report.

Now that we have this Turner/Meeks debate page, can we go back to debating Ty Lawson vs. Jrue Holiday?

Sure, you can put that here as well. But you're never allowed to comment unless you include defense in your statement.

Can we please apply this rule to the Turner-Meeks debate? :)

I honestly don't care what rules you apply to it. This thread exists so I don't have to read any more of the whining.

Cool, I love this thread and the picture at the right linking to it!

My bad, Brian.

No need for anyone to apologize. Just use this thread going forward.

I wonder if the people that complain about Meeks gets to play a lot in blowouts gett mad when kafka gets to play the whole 2nd half in preseason

Never liked his books

Is Spiller the only one who thinks Turner should be starting over Meeks? I'd like to see a poll.

A poll is a good idea, I'll add it to the top of this post when I get a minute. In the middle of some code right now.

Where we're going, we don't need code

bebopdeluxe reply to dwight on Jan 29 at 20:38

To be honest, I am as OK with Meeks starting on this team as I was with Iavaroni starting in '82-'83...in the guts of the game, he had a comfy seat right next to Billy C.

I don't think that Collins hates Turner.

I think that Meeks is a nice player to have in the rotation.

I also believe that Turner's lack of quality minutes is partly a function of his normal 2nd half rotation (late 3rd to close) has coincided with absolute GARBAGE time - a good thing in the overall scheme of things, to be sure, but a drag for Turner's development (as most of the "closers" are on the bench for the majority of the 4th quarter lately).

As long as we see a healthy dose of JTI when games get tight against good teams, I am OK with the way things are...which actually leads me to thinking that the guy who will most stand in the way of Turner's minutes isn't Meeks, but Lou.

I guess my biggest concerns are 1) that Collins needs to be more flexible in terms of when he puts Turner in the game (the Heat game being Exhibit A of this)

tight poll my friend. See, I'm not the only one :)

and the smiley was just cuz, ya know :)

Too many people have been reading your posts I guess. You're too influential.

Considering how our starting 5 is usually behind before the first substitution, I would love to see coach insert turner into the Sl for 10 games and see how it goes.

Considering how our starting 5 is usually behind before the first substitution, I would love to see coach insert turner into the Sl for 10 games and see how it goes.

That's a great point.

Thank for the the 'reply threading' - or I would not have been able to skip the entire pointless dead horse mental masturbation in the game thread - only a fool would think threaded replies aren't a good thing.

The only 'rule' I'd like is that anyone who feels the coach 'hates' a player be sent to bleacher report (or philly.com) immediately where they can interact with the body language facial expression reading remote psychiatrists

I don't know that I care one way or the other the way many seem to regarding this 'debate'. I am not emotionally vested in it. last year I was a bit more vested in it before Turner showed how very raw he was, and the sixers started being competitive.

Honestly, if Jodie Meeks can increase his sign and trade value, more power to him, I don't believe he's on the sixers long term.

What I find most interesting about the discussion is that many folk who think Doug Collins is a good coach put it on Collins, not as a coach but as a man, for hating Turner (which is of course absurd)

And to me - you either thik collins is the right coach or you don't. I don't because his history indicates he's not a long term solution - but if you think he's the right coach - then you trust his decision - all of them - and so far the sixers are doing pretty well.

Would I rather see Evan Turner get more minutes - sure I would - but if Evan Turner could be a good scorer anywhere else but 'at the basket' then he's going to be a defensive specialist, and well, jodies an offensive specialist (who has off games but has been getting off earlier recently)

If the sixers go in to some sort of tailspin and it's all jodie meeks fault and doug collins somehow won't bench him - i of course reserve the right to change my opinion.

But in a compacted season where rest is more vital, with a team playing some of the best basketball in the game, I'm not sure why all the vitriol. I mean the sixers have one of the best defenses in the league (aside from some questionable rebounding) already - not sure what giving Turner more minutes relaly will prove until he shows some consistency offensively away from the basket.

The "Collins hates Turner" conspiracy is right up there with the moon landing, tupac, and the lindbergh baby.

I am an Evan Turner fan.

He is the reason I follow the team. I think he is better player than Jodie Meeks. I do not think he will be a "superstar". I do think he has a chance to as good as Iguodala (better offense than AI9, above average defense but not AI9 level). Being as good as AI9 is nothing to sneeze at. Iggy has a good shot at the Olympic Team.

All of this being said, I think Jodie Meeks should start. I do think JTIYB should be the closing lineup unless Lou or Jodie is on fire.

Turner is not really a shooting guard in the traditional sense. On this team he is more vaulable as the backup 1, 2, or 3 as a member of the Night Shift.

So - when evan turner is no longer a sixer you will not longer a fan?

I know there were a lot of 'Iverson fans' but I didn't think Turner would have any of the same type.

Don't forget - he's also on the graveyard shift as well

Well, there are Nocioni fans, so yeah...

Well yeah, but that sort of made sense to me in the 'national pride' (players from another country) kind of way - (i.e. the nation of china were all rockets fans and now can't give a damn about the NBA) when you only have one or two players in the league...but such types of fans tend not to be rational about their use either :)

I live in Ohio and graduated from Ohio State. I have never been to Philly but would like to go to a Sixers game at the Wells Fargo center. I am going to go to Cleveland and Indianapolis when the Sixers play there.

I really enjoyed watching Turner at OSU. I like his work ethic and I find his personal story (sickly childhood, quirky personality, slow start in high school and college hoops to eventually dominate at both levels) compelling.

I have come to enjoy other aspects of the Sixers though. I enjoy AI9 for his complete game, Jrue for his potential, and Thad for his energy. Oddly enough for this thread, one of my favorite things about the Sixers is Coach Collins. He is a pleasure to listen to in interviews and I have learned a lot about basketball listening to him. I will follow the Sixers as long as either Turner or Collins is around. The Sixers play a fun brand of basketball: great defense and share the ball on offense.

I won't completely rehash what I posted earlier. Suffice to say, I see ET as being in competition for minutes with Jrue, Iggy and Lou. Since Meeks is their only wing who is a low usage player (does not need to dribble to score) and their only shooter, he gets about 25 minutes by default simply to help the other wings succeed. Find a better shooter to replace him.

My question is: In your view should the team cut J/I/Lou's minutes in favor of ET? Or should they look to trade one of those 4 guys?

I disagree that he's in 'competition' with Lou cause lou can do things that Evan can't and the sixers need - (and if you know me, being positive about lou causes me actual pain).

I still think trading Iguodala is the best thing for the long term success of this franchise (success being at least making the ECF)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 29 at 20:55

Well each of them has relative strebgths. Not saying they are all similar players. Just that all are relatively high usage players (ranging from 18. (Iggy) to 27 (Lou.) ET is a better defender, more versatile and has better court vision. Lou is a singular talent as a scorer and FT producer. Iggy is a special defender and a "special" shooter. Jrue can shoot but gets brain cramps.

Lou definitely wins them some games. But ET could give you 30+ minutes at PG/SG/Sf and would mix well w/ J/I/M. Lou might also be gone or extended next year, so I'd strongly consider moving him for value.

But probably the best course is to be "deep" right now, and wait for the right trade where one of them are moved as part of an impact move.

Will this impact move happen before the trade deadline? This off-season? Next off-season? I'm curious to find out.

Well, waiving Brand via amnesty I believe is required for a serious impact move - in the off season

I don't think they'll do it if they can't land a good FA/make a good trade.

I had the argument with Brian already - depends on the deadline for waiving folks - but I believe waiving Brand is a must do this off season or you can't do much - I'm not in the 'only waive him if you can get Howard department' - I'm in the 'be in position to take advantage fo something when it happens' - and it usually happens :)

If nothing happens and they waive him, they're paying 18 million to become worse. I suppose it might be a risk worth taking, but I'm afraid they'll get desperate and make a dumb signing that will hinder their 2013 FA options.

I agree

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 29 at 21:17

Can't they waive him next year if they need to? (of course he would be an expiring and might have more value in a trade then the space he clears if you waive him.)

Whens the deadline for amnestying players - my brain wants to say it's before the draft.

Expiring contracts - yeah they've been pretty valuable the past few years haven't they?

I think cap room in free agency is more valuable than an expiring contract. An expiring contract can only be used in one trade, whereas cap space can be used repeatedly depending on the moves you make - that's my thinking on it.

After reading the piece in the Inquirier on Harris today, I get more bad vibe than good vibe from these guys though - but that's just me

I didn't think there was a deadline for amnestying players.

Oh there's definitely a deadline in each off season - and it can only be done during the off season

Oh right. Nevermind. In this case I would prefer if they have legit options lined up rather than pulling the plug, panicking, and making a dumb move. I still don't trust this FO.

I don't believe waiving Elton Brand via amnesty is a panic move (especially if the deadline is before draft night - which is the timing that sticks in my head for some reason - not sure why) I believe that Elton Brand is having his last productive season - and that cap room is more versatile than an expiring contract.

Watch some of the moves the Mavericks might make this year - and don't look at them as 'they won't help them this year' - look at them as 'hey look they're better positioned to get Deron Williams and Dwight Howard

I meant that they amnesty him trying to go for certain players, don't get them, panic, and sign some less talented guys to a crap, long-term contract rather than hold on to the cap space.

The deadline is after the draft. I believe it's a week after free agency opens.

WEll that provides more flexibility and the capability of a good GM to get the lay of the land.

Let's hope the sixers have one by then

tk76 reply to Jeff on Jan 29 at 21:13

I also wonder if their recent success makes them more or less likely to pull the trigger.

During the season, I would say 'less likely' - the new owners want the attendance - as long as the team is winning like this I don't expect much to be done - unless a golden opportunity presents itself - and I'm not sure Rod Thorn knows how to do that any more

I think he woke up and took his meds the other day, so that's a start.

ET is a better defender, more versatile and has better court vision

I'm assuming you're comparing him to Lou when you say that?

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 29 at 21:11

Yep, sort of wandered about on that post.

Didn't think you had taken all lost of your senses - just couldn't be sure :)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jan 29 at 21:15

Just some of them intermittently. But its a long season, and a cold, cold summer.

...talk about random associations, I feel like a bit of a Paul Simon song coming on.

mchezo reply to tk76 on Jan 29 at 22:52

Lou is not a singular talent. Lou facilitates, sets up the offense, creates shots for others, drives and kicks, draws double teams, runs the pick and roll and doesn't turn the ball over. just saying...

Sorry, I meant he has unique skills, not that he is one dimensional. Although I would not call him a PG. He is a scoring specialist like Crawford or Terry.

Did Allen Iverson 'facilitate' does monta ellis facilitate?

Cause that's the type of player lou is

bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Jan 29 at 21:44

I think that Lou will opt out this summer - either because he plays well and gets a nice deal from somebody else or because he starts sitting a lot at crunch time in favor of JTI.

I am hoping for the latter.

Just learned that the hornets being down 23 to the hawks is their largest deficit of the season. You would think that a crap team like the hornets would have larger deficits than that.

Didn't watch the Celtics/Cavs game, but what happened? How does Boston let Cleveland go on a 12-0 run to end the game?

I watched it. Side-show bob was actually making some nice plays around the basket to get them back. Celtics weren't hitting their shots.

Irving had a super-duper clutch move at the end. To be honest, it was a very nice move - high pick from side-show bob where he went around the pick, drove in the lane, did a nice spin move and layed it up.

Pierce missed a semi-contested jumper with 2 seconds left.

Stan reply to Jeff on Jan 29 at 21:31

Awesome nickname for Anderson Verajoa. Did you come up with that?

Apparently the people at celticsblog are complaining about the refs, Doc's substitutions, and Varajoa.

Celtics fans always complain about the refs, because they believe, as heinsohn tells them to, that the celtics never commit a foul

Not sure where the nickname originated from, but I read it once on libertyballers. I used to call him carrot-top before that.

Twolves/Lakers is turning into a hell of a game here.

Tray's inefficient gunner, Kevin Love, has 31 on 20 shots so far. Lakers by 1 in the fourth quarter (LAL was up by 18).

Wolves might actually pull this off if they can keep the ball out of Beasley's hands.

Heh, I was thinking the same thing. Interested in seeing if they'll actually let him submarine their team, or if Adelman will have the balls to bench him.

The couple minutes I watched before switching to HBO he waas making some shots

He took a pretty bad, contested three when I typed that comment.

Hopefully this road win qualms their urgency to get another road win before they play in philly. That is, if they had urgency to begin with, and it wasn't all media hype.

Their second road win of the season - from a team that's supposed to be a threat - somehow I think they'll have the 'same' urgency they had tonight :)

They really need to use Bynum more

PS- Bynum and Gasol is one of those REALLY bad match ups for the sixers front court - even if they're healthy :)

Oh, it's a bad front court match up, but our bench should be better. We'll have to beat them with hustle and hope their legs are tired from the travel. Also, Iguodala held Kobe to 3/11 shooting last time they played in Philly. If he can provide a similar defensive performance they stand a chance.

I added the poll to the post, just click the expand button above the comments to see it and vote.

I think a new thread needs to be made addressing the overuse of the smiley face emoticons. This is a sports thread not a Hollywood teen gossip site.

This might just be the dumbest comment I've ever read.

What's the matter Jeff? Did that comment hit a little too close to home?

I prefer smiley face icons to people misinterpreting something sarcastic and getting wasting a couple comments bitching about something that was a joke in the first place.

The hell you say, that never happens here, no one here is funny :)

Then I kindly request you change your profile picture to be something related to sports - also, please learn the difference between thread and site :) :D :P >:)

I'm pretty sure Sandusky used smiley face emoticons to lure in children if that makes you guys feel any better.

Ok I take that back. This was definitely the dumbest comment I've ever read. You're on a roll. Keep it up.

South Broad on Jan 29 at 22:04

Has there ever been such a fuss made over such a mediocre inconsistent player? It's mindboggling when you consider how well the team has hit its' stride under this staff and is doing overall, as the numbers suggest.

Sort of reminds me of Marreese Speights first year when he was receiving spot duty and there was much talk of how he was going to supplant Elton Brand the next season. We see how that worked out.

Guess Speights didn't have a good enough game versus the Miami Heat, failing to show his true potential.

I wrote two articles about lou williams last season - he's pretty mediocre - not inconsistent - but mediocre :)

At least to me.

Dude was the #2 pick in the draft - unfortunately that factors into the intensity of the debate I believe - though once a guy plays a few games - where they were picked no longer should matter

He has had plenty of good games against other teams, not just against Miami. People tend to focus on good teams the most, and it makes sense why they would - they are teams you would potentially see in the playoffs.

As for the "fuss", you're just as responsible for it as the people who worship Turner, for declaring him mediocre shortly into his second season. You make just as little sense as they do, you just don't realize it.

Inconsistent, sure. But that isn't unusual for a young player.

Didn't you make these same points in the other thread?

MCT reply to Jeff on Jan 29 at 22:33

I'm pretty sure everyone is stating something they have said before

yup exactly

Well the comment by South Broad was also rehashed. Hell nearly every thread on any sports blogs is rehashed, such as ...

Lou is a ball-hog
Jrue makes bad decisions
Iggy can't shoot
Brand was a bad contract
Turner stands in the corner and mopes
Eddie Jordan is the worst coach in history


So if people keep rehashing the same arguments, doesn't that say something? When people just stick to their points and refuse to cave, the argument in general becomes moot. Thus, it should discontinue unless of course people just want to be stubborn and self-righteous.

I didn't realize how good Meek's efficiency stats were this season: 61% TS%, 58% eFG%. Shooting that well with a low usage rate - I can definitely see his value between Jrue and Iguodala.

Ugh, Nene has Chris Paul on him on the blocks and he kicks it out for an Al Harrington three. That's just bad basketball.

If that was hawes he would've gone for the sissy hook.

Man I really miss Hawes. And Vucevic! 2 of my 4 favorite players have been out seemingly forever. Bummers.

Evan Turner by far. Meeks may be able to stretch the floor with his 3 point shooting but that's it. He's 1 dimensional.

Turner is a better defender, rebounder, and better overall player. If he improved his jumper he would definitely be starting material.

TwoSense on Jan 29 at 23:28

I think a good question is - when does the obsession and worshipping over Turner cease?

~When he gets 30 minutes a game and shows he's still the same player as when he was getting 24 minutes?

~When it's his third year and he possibly still shows he can't shoot?

~When he continues to show he's a short-changed Swiss army knife and not a Ginsu?

~When Doug Collins moves on and there's another coach in place that uses him the same way?

~Or - when he finally secures the way-too-glorious, hardly meaningful "starter" label?

Evan Turner, you rock. Guys are puckering up worse than Meeks is falsely accused of doing; he didn't even get his own post sidebar.

Turtle Bay reply to TwoSense on Jan 30 at 0:17

People always get excited about young or new players.

This debate should be postponed until we start playing better teams (next week) and see if there really is a glaring weakness in the starting lineup that Turner could fill.

Rich reply to Turtle Bay on Jan 30 at 1:14

TB, I'm curious where your name comes from or refers to. If you don't feel like answering, totally fine.

Turtle Bay reply to Rich on Jan 30 at 11:16

Oh it doesn't really mean anything. Needed a name so just picked a golf course I used to play on as a kid. I always thought Turtle Bay sounded kind of serene and peaceful.

Jason M on Jan 30 at 0:21

Spiller's ideal team: Hawes, Turner, and Vucevic each getting 40 mpg. Lou and Meeks cut.

What a powerhouse squad.

As it stands, Meeks should start. But once Doug Collins wises up and realizes that Lou Williams is better than Jrue holiday (every advanced stat points to it), then ET should start. But until then it should be Meeks

The advanced stats only prove that Lou Williams is better against bench competition than Jrue is against starting competition.

BLD reply to dwight on Jan 30 at 13:36

That's a joke right? Go look at basketball reference. Lou has a better TS% (55% Lou, 51% JRue), Ast%(24% Lou, 20% JRue) and they're equal in rebounding. Lou has a 33% higher usage (29 Lou, 22 Jrue) and turn is over 6.9% of the time compared 15.7% from Holiday. Lou also takes the most free throws of anyone on the team and nearly 1.5x as many as holiday. Lou has produced 2.6 win shares compared to 1.8 by Holiday. When you get done with that head over to 82games and see more proof of how much better Lou Williams is.

Or you could look at how the team performs with each on the floor vs. off the floor, that might paint part of the picture.

BLD reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 13:58

There are issues with basketball value. Every other advanced metric points to sweet Lou being a vastly superior player. Please refute anything I've posted so far. Instead of putting up 1 link

Is the issue w/ basketballvalue that it doesn't say what you want it to say?

82games.com says the same things as far as team performance is concerned.

With Lou on the court, the team OFR is 112. Team DFR is 101.4. Dif is +10.8.

With Lou off the court, the team OFR is 104.5. Team DFR is 89.1. Dif is +15.4.

The team is 4.6 points-per-100-possessions better with Lou on the bench than when he's playing.

With Jrue on the court, team OFR is 107.6. Team DFR is 92.8. Dif is +14.8.

With Jrue off the court, team OFR is 111.1. Team DFR is 102.7. Dif is +8.4.

The team is 6.4 points-per-100-possessions better with Jrue on the floor than when he's sitting.

BLD reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 14:00

To check out 82games, that should quiet you a bit

BLD, did you read my comment? I agreed that Lou is having a better year statistically. I actually go to 82games.com for a lot of my information.

However, stats and advanced stats have one major flaw. And that flaw is that you are judging Jrue's play against the other team's starting lineup and you are judging Lou's play against the other team's backups. That's why the only way you can judge which player is better is to watch them play.


Phil reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 12:30

^ this

Lou has an offensive rating of 116 and a defensive rating of 100. A difference of +16. Holiday has an offensive rating of 99 and a defensive rating of 97.a difference of plus 3. Everyone except Turner (+5) and Holiday has a +13 or better rating (Lou, iggy, brand, Thad, Meeks, hawes, vuc). Holiday has the worst of anyone getting serious minutes.

Well there you go then

Two abstract numbers - that's all you need to understand basketball

No need to watch lou play 'defense' - or not pass the ball

BLD reply to GoSixers on Jan 30 at 13:50

Go read the reply I made at 1:36pm today

Go learn about small sample size and career arcs

BLD reply to GoSixers on Jan 30 at 13:56

Really? Go look at last years stats.....

I could explain career arcs to you - and defense - but you seem to think there's only one half of the court involved

BLD reply to GoSixers on Jan 30 at 14:26

Lou Williams is 13th in NBA in PER. Holiday is 15th in PER out of Eastern Conference Point Guards. Honestly, what Planet are you all on

Lou Williams is 13th in PER in the entire NBA. Holiday is 15th amongst Point Guards in the East.

Lou has been very good in his role. Playing limited minutes, mostly against bench guys, and matching up against the opposing team's weakest link on the defensive end. Jrue has been absolutely brilliant on the defensive end and the team has been nearly unstoppable when he's been on the floor (leads the team in minutes).

Flip their roles, and Jrue would probably be less effective in Lou's role, while Lou really couldn't handle Jrue's role on he defensive end of the floor at all.

Jrue vs. Lou isn't really an argument we need to have. Each is doing his job. Lou is a plus offensive player, a minus defender. Jrue is a plus defensive player, average on offense, with room to grow.

BLD reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 14:04
BLD reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 14:08

Is that statement a joke? Lou is a better scorer, passer and rebounder. holiday is the king of sagging into the lane and leaving his man wide open for 3. holiday getting steals doesn't make him a better defender

BLD reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 14:12

Jrue vs Lou on defense is not debatable, although I give Lou credit that he is not as bad as he was 2 years ago.

Lou has a sky high usage rate (over 27%) compared to a more normal 22% for Jrue (still a bit too high.) So if Lou is going to dominate so many possessions he better put up gaudy numbers. This works great for a 6th man, but is not what you want from your PG.

Both have been shooting the ball great from 3pt. Jrue has been much better with his midrange shot (45% from 16-23 feet) while Lou is a serviceable 38% on those shots. Both players settle for too many long 2's, but it is at least a positive weapon for Jrue.

Both are actually bad at 3-8ft and 3-15 feet. Both are about equal around the rim, and surprisingly they each get shots in that range at about the same rate, and their low 50's percentage on those shots ranks the worst on the team.

Lou is hands down better in the paint and drawing fouls. That is his real superior skill.

BLD reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 14:40

PER is a statistic. One that rewards high usage players. It is not Hollinger's opinion on who are the best PG's, but only a liisting of that one advanced stat.

So if PER is the only metric that matters, then Lou is the #3 PG in the NBA- which you might believe based on your posts. But by the same measure Mo Williams is the #6 best PG in the league and Deron is only 14th. So does that suggest that PER is the best measure of how good a PG is?

BLD reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 14:54

What other guys do you deem as PER flukes? Also, Meeks is more useful than Turner on Offense by a large margin, much larger than the defensive superiority than Turner shows

Just saying PER is not the end all as a measure of who is the best PG. That list based on PER is not how I would rank the leagues best PG. It is a useful stat, just like the other ones listed.

When Dana Barros had his best year for the Sixers his PER was 20.9, better then Steve Nash's career average and nearly Stockton's career PER. But that did not mean his PG play he was like Stockton or Nash.

These are the highest usage PG's in the NBA:

Lou is 4th and Jrue is 21st. Since PEr rewards high usage it makes sense that it inflates Lou;s relatige performance since he uses more up more possesions per minute he is on the floor.

If you normalize PER to usage (PER diveded by Usage) then Jrue and Lou are close.

BLD reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 16:14

Dana Barros has the 79th highest TS% ever in a season and played 40 mpg in 94-95. Here is his comparison at 27 with 5 hall of famers. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=barroda01&y1=1995&p2=nashst01&y2=2002&p3=iversal01&y3=2003&p4=stockjo01&y4=1990&p5=paytoga01&y5=1996&p6=kiddja01&y6=2001 Look at WS and go to the current nba season and look at the stats. Your argument holds no water.

He had a statistically fantastic season. He did not play at a HOF level. He put up tremendous numbers on a horrible team. Just like Lou put up career numbers under EJ. Numbers which were hollow, since I would take his play this year over the EJ year even if the numbers are not quite as good.

You really don't have any clue what you're talking about, do you? Enjoy Bleacher Report.

Lou williams TS% 55, AST Rate 24%, Reb Rate 5.4%, USG 28%, TO% 6.9 PER: 23.3 Jrue holiday TS% 51, AST Rate 20%, Reb Rate 5.1%, USG 22%, TO% 15.7 PER: 15.5

I think that most posters here would agree that Lou has played better than Jrue so far this season. Just like everyone would agree that ET is a better player than Meeks. That does not mean that Lou is the right PG for this (or any) NBA team.

BLD reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 15:02
BLD reply to BLD on Jan 30 at 15:07

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio oh, look Lou Williams is 3rd in ast:to and if you have time to go back a page, well then, you'll find Jrue at 55th in the nba in assist to turnover ration

So you are saying PER is THE statistic when it comes to measuring players. It is a good stat but I don't agree that it is the end all.

It a countuing stat the looks at how much productivity a player has owhile on the court (rebooundsm, steals, assists etc) and punishes things like TO's. So it makes sense that the top players have high PER's. It also makes sense that high usage players have inflated PER's.

Lou is both a good player and a high usage player. So he has a high PER. But you are making a leap to say that because he has a high PER that he is as good as the other players with the same PER. Or that PER is the best way to rank how good a player is.

It is like looking at a statistic that says on average poor people are fatter... and then seeing a fat person standing next to a skinny person and thinking they have proof that the skinny one has more money than the fat one.

BLD reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 16:24

Lou Williams beats holiday in ts%, ast%, reb%, to% and has a higher usage. What are you talking about? Lou Williams is 7th among Nba point guards and 25th in the entire NBA in Value Added. Jrue Holiday is 22nd amongst Point Guards in Value added while being 9th in Minutes. Lou Williams is 22nd in minutes compared to the other top 21 pgs and he's 7th in VA. Just admit that Lou Williams > Jrue Holiday without question

L.A. Steve on Jan 30 at 15:21

I'm an Evan Turner fan, and would like to see him get 30-30+ mpg now. In my opinion he has all-star potential and posesses the following attributes: great moves, excellent rebounder, strong defender, very good playmaker; he is unselfish and doesn't take bad shots. His mid-range game is pretty good, but long-range shooting is still a work in process.

Doug is bringing him along slowly, which doesn't thrill me, but, who knows, it may be for the best. Personally, I think he's a guard, a 1 or 2, not a 3. Others see him as a three, but I feel he is undersized at the 3.

The thing with Evan is when he struggles he losses confidence. That's why he needs more time, so he can relax, get some success, and build his confidence. He also needs to have the ball in his hands more, because he's a good decision maker. The key question is will Collins have the patients and belief to stick with him?

I think ET's future success will be dependent on his teammates.

If he is on a team with lots of shooters and teamed with another wing who draws the more athletic defender then ET will thrive. But if ET has to shoot much or routinely draws highly athletic/long defenders (which he will as a starting SF) then I think he will never reach his potential.

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 15:47

If you have to be hidden like that, and your success being predicated on so many others, is "potential" even actually possessed anymore?

It is not being hidden. It is finding the best fit for your talent.

Rondo, Andre Miller, Curry, Iguodala and countless other good players have clear weaknesses to their games. All those players are "exposed" if their team asks them to not play to their strengths. That is the case for 90% of the palyers in the league (good and bad) so I do not see it as a huge criticism of ET.

Look at Lou. As him to be a traditional PG and he suddenly is not nearly as good as when you unleash him as a cold blooded scorer. On the same token ET is developing a valuable skill set as a versatile big guard who can get in the lane and score effectively while bringing good passing, rebounding and defense. Put him in a lineup that needs those skills and he could develop into a second level star. But right now the Sixers already get a lot of that production from other, more polished players.

L.A. Steve reply to tk76 on Jan 30 at 17:39

I see your point, and I think it has merit, still, I believe it's too soon to evaluate his game. With that said, I believe he's more athletic than people think. He has a good vertical, and can dunk the ball with no problem; he, also, goes high for rebounds. At the pre-draft rookie camp, he had the second fastest time in the sprint, right behind John Wall.

The main thing that will determine how good he becomes is how he develops his shot. When you consider his intelligence, and work ethic, I believe it's going to turn out good for Evan Turner, even though it may take a few years.

I don't know anyone that doesn't think he's athletic however, he's not 'quick' with his athleticism - it's more 'slow developing' (which is a common trait on this team)

The more I see him play the more I think he's an Iguodala clone, which is great, except the sixers already have Iguodala.

I don't know how many, but some players are playing above their heads (one of them was spencer before he got hurt) and i worry what will happen when those folk revert to career averages

Hate that the de-derailing thread was derailed by a loud moron, but whatever.

To get it back on track, the Sixers were 48-34 over the first 82 games Meeks started for the team. 50-34 now.

Jason M reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 16:46

You've been doing this a lot lately, just telling people to stop commenting or to go over to a different site if you don't like what they are saying. First with the ET vs. Meeks debate, and now with this commenter talking about Lou being better than Jrue. You may think that he is a loud moron, but he is making an argument using statistics. You cited one statistic and then decided to tell him to go to bleacher report. It seems that you are trying to create a culture on this site of people either agreeing with you or never commenting again.

Except that you're entirely and completely wrong on both your hypothesis, or secondary hypothesis. I disagree with him constantly, as do others.

Maybe he's irritated in a 'set aside thread' about evan turner somehow became about lou versus jrue because one very loud obstinant fellow ignored evidence that didn't prove his point.

PS - morons can abuse statistics, and it's easy to tell when a moron is abusing statistics - he ignores the ones that disprove his point or dismisses them - focusing only on statistics no matter how poorly used that 'prove' his point.

As for the 'culture' of the blog - it's brians - it can be whatever he wants it to be - he can allow whomever he wants to post or not post here - it's his sandbox - there's no free speech here

If I got rid of everyone who disagreed with me, I'd be here all by myself. That guy struck me as a troll who didn't understand what he was talking about and basically just wanted to shout over everyone with links to stats he doesn't understand. I don't have time for that.

This thread was created because every post lately, no matter what it was written about, was turning into the same exact conversation about Meeks vs. Turner. Look at the last game thread for an example.

A part of running this blog is at least making an attempt to keep the comment section readable. From time to time, I ban people, but not really that often at all. If you don't like how I handle things, I apologize, but no one forces you to visit.

So - as long as we don't make the poast about meeks versus turner we're good - for instance - we can bring up how much better the team would be with a certain 6'11 haitian right?:)

As long as it doesn't provoke a 50-comment flame war on every story, sure. Oh, and you're banned for the smiley face.

Dude, be lucky you don't allow html and img srcing :)

I like the smilely face - besides, i don't smile that much in real life

Sweet Lou Williams reply to Brian on Jan 30 at 17:20

Brian, you put up 1 link. BLD used tons of stats to prove his case, none of which anyone refuted and just said "holiday is really good on defense". The truth is Look at what PG's do against holiday, they totally abuse him like how BLD abused you guys when talking about me. Imma heat up tonight n crip walk all ova you h8ters

Brians stat linked to a team analysis of the sixers with jrue on the court versus lou on the court (and off respecticaly)

What they showed is that the SIXERS are better when jrue is on the court versus off MORE so than when lou is on the court versus off.

Monta Ellis looks good using the number BLD used, because they're individual numbers - would you rather have monta ellis over jrue holliday

Cause that's the question - if you're pro lou over jrue than you're pro monta ellis

Lou Williams reply to GoSixers on Jan 30 at 17:37

My TS%, AST%, REB%, TO% are all superior to JRue, I play with lesser players and am more effective. Once this season is over and all the stats point my way, you'll keep up your petty argument. Don't compare me to Monta Ellis, he shoots worse, passes better and turns it over 2x what I do and on similar usage.

Sigh - as bad as that comment is, it's still too smart to be lou williams


Jason M reply to GoSixers on Jan 30 at 17:38

Well, since you are talking directly to Lou Williams apparently, pretty sure he prefers his (and Monta's) game over Jrue's. Find it pretty hard to believe that anyone thinks Lou's defense is better than Jrue's, though. Also, 95% sure that "Sweet Lou Williams" is BLD

NIce comment


If you're going to delete comments - you gotta have a special error page when there's no parent_id for a reply :)

I don't mind if someone is over-focused on one issue as long as they are not personally abusive. It is interesting to a completely different viewpoint. But I do see the hijacking part- but I have been guilty of that in the past.

I also find it funny that I often end up coming to the defense of players that I generally don't particularly enjoy watching )Sam, Hawes, Lou last year.)

It's official of course now - I mean he cursed him out on tv

Collins hates him - the debate is over

thewhettingstone reply to GoSixers on Jan 30 at 22:53

all of the bone-headed plays Holiday has made. all of the times Meeks has been burnt playing D. never has Collins chastised them for their poor play. Turner seems to be his whipping boy. why? because there needs to be one on every team? i don't know. i don't like it. as Turner, who can ball, is getting yapped at by the coach, m-f-ing Meeks is still getting more PT. i don't get it. we got the W and, in the end, that's all that matters, but every time I see Meeks come on to the floor, I find myself thinking the same thing when I see Iguodala taking the last shot of a tied game - "What?! Why?!"

Ultimately, one W is not all that matters. Winning a championship is all that matters. And anyone who thinks we have a better chance of winning a championship with Jodie Meeks than Evan Turner is, well, wrong.

It's laughable how Collins treats Turner compared to everyone else on the team (all the coach's pets).

If Collins is so in love with Turner, why did he scream at him, once again, and let everyone else off the hook? Iggy air-balled a free throw and finished 3 for 9. Meeks missed a free throw. Meeks and Lou were turnstyles on defense. Did Collins yell at any of them? Nope. Turner was 4 for 6 from the line down the stretch, and he apparently missed one defensive switch, and got an earful.

If you want to say Collins doesn't hate Turner, fine by me guest, I disagree but that's fine. But are you really going to continue to deny that he consistently sh*ts on Turner while letting all his favorite coach's pets off the hook?

Dwight reply to spiller27 on Jan 31 at 1:12

If anything, yelling shows that Collins cares even more about Turner than anyone else. He wants him to succeed. The worst way a coach can treat a player is with indifference. Collins was known to be notoriously hard on Hill and Jordan.

In some instances, your theory would be correct. With Collins and Turner, just looking at the eyes, these two men despise each other. If you asked me to place a bet right now, I'd put it on Turner being traded by the deadline.

I mean, Collins was cursing the f out of Turner at the end of the game. And Turner was throwing towels. I expect a DNP for Turner in the next game.

This is not a case of tough love. This is a situation of mutual hatred.

Dwight reply to spiller27 on Jan 31 at 1:20

The most competitive players and coaches have the most heated arguments. You never see a coach screaming at a bench warmer after a mistake. Coaches are supposed to get angry at players. That's what coaching is all about.

I hope you're right, and fear you're wrong.

He's benched Jrue at least a handful of times when he's made mistakes over the past couple of weeks. Why aren't you up in arms about that treatment?

The answer is because you shouldn't be. These guys are all really young. It's a balancing act, Collins has to coach to win while teaching.

I didn't say anything about benching. I was talking about the cursing at him. Collins doesn't do that to anyone else. You may think that's insignificant, but I would disagree.

As for why am I not up in arms about Holiday, he leads the team in minutes. Not much of a comparison to Collins' treatment of Turner there, I'm afraid.

South Broad on Jan 31 at 9:10

If this is going to be the case AFTER EVERY game, maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have this permanent post. There's been whining that Turner doesn't play down the stretch, well, he plays a lengthy stretch at the end and there's still whining? Or just re-title it - endless conspiracy theories, pass the kleenex. The obsession really is hysterical and funny nonetheless.

Um - that's the exact reason to have this permanent post, to give the ranters and ravers a place to write without polluting other posts that aren't about it.

Like when they gave 18 year olds the right to vote so they'd shut up

This is both a beautiful and ugly thread at the same time. :)
I'm going to corporate speak:

The problem for the Sixers is they have a bunch of players with overlapping skill sets. Young, Williams, Turner, Iggy. They all play that Off Guard, Small Forward, Swing, wing position. And while all four of them can pretty much start for any team in the league. You can't really play all four at the same time.

Meeks is a pure shooting guard, a welfare man's Ray Allen. Defenses have to keep a man on him at the perimeter else he'll kill you with open looks.

Of Young, Williams, Turner, Iggy and Meeks - Meeks is the worst basketball player out of all of them, but he's indispensable because he plays a unique role in the offense the others can't fill.

If you can trade Young, Williams, Iggy or Turner for a significant upgrade at SG who can open up the floor or traditional PF/Center who can draw double teams, act as a shot blocker. Then and only then it makes sense.

Turner played 2 minutes in the second half after playing a good first half. GoSixers, what's your latest explanation? Obviously anything but "Collins has it out for the guy" but I'm curious as to whatever justification can be created for his 2 second-half minutes.

This was Turner's 6th consecutive game with less minutes than the previous game, despite playing fine all season.

Sharone Wright reply to spiller27 on Feb 11 at 14:18

I would like to see more Turner, but I think Meeks is doing what Coach is asking of him, and Turner is not always doing what Coach is asking. Coach is asking more of Turner than Meeks. Meeks is knocking down open threes at a good rate (44%) and playing adequate defense. Turner is having some mental lapses on defense and missing long twos.

I see your point, but yesterday Turner opened with 3 straight outside shots, and got his lowest minutes of the season.

ET's last 4 games: 17, 11, 22, and 14 minutes. 2 of those games were losses, one was a struggle to beat the worst team in the NBA. But no, no way, there's nothing personal, Doug loves ET!

To be fair, Turner was single-handedly responsible for a five-point swing in the fourth quarter of what was a struggle to beat the worst team in the NBA. That's why he only played 14 minutes.

Well, if making a mistake that causes a 5-point swing is a justifiable reason for getting benched for the entire rest of the game, Iggy had a couple bad turnovers and Meeks was great at firing bricks and playing no D, events that should have likewise landed them on the pine.

But of course, making a mistake to cause a 5-point swing is not a reason to bench someone for the entire rest of the game, unless it's a particular someone. ET's minutes since the Orlando towel incident have been a joke. This is the exact same thing that happened last year with "I just wanna play for crying out loud." Collins holds personal grudges over tiny incidents and doesn't let them go.

Although of course, when Lou was pouting on the bench for not getting on the court in the 4th quarter, there was no punishment; the opposite occurred in fact.

You seem to conveniently ignore the fact that Jrue has been benched multiple times this season for sequences like that.

I don't ignore it, I'm just simultaneously well aware that Jrue leads the team in minutes and that it has happened a helluva lot less to Jrue than Turner. And it's really not going on with Jrue at all anymore, whereas it's going on a lot more now with ET.

stonedeightytoo reply to spiller27 on Feb 14 at 0:11

OK, in his last five games ET's averaging:
18 min
5.6 points
3.6 rebounds
2 assists
0 steals
1 turnover each game

Shooting 13-31 from the floor for 41%
Shooting 1-5 from 3pt for 20%
Got to the line a whole 2 times making 1 for 50%

That said, why should he be on the court more than he already is?

Meeks has his flaws but is out there to shoot, something Turner's proving to not be too capable of providing.

Lou has flaws as well but is out there to get his shots up and score in bunches, which he's providing by leading the team in scoring average for the year while only playing a little over half of the game. Draws fouls at a high rate and gets to the stripe, something Turner seems immune to doing both of - scoring effectively and shooting free throws.

Iguodala is pretty stout across the board, save free throw shooting.

Jrue is growing into his position in a critical way (turnovers), not a flashy one (PPG). He's shooting better and is showing capable of making more timely shots. Still struggling to get to the stripe.

The defensive numbers provided earlier today show that these guys in different combinations are adequate, sometimes more than adequate.

Who do you replace in their current role and insert Turner for more burn?

Put the theories aside for once and answer the two questions posed.

Question 1: You're benching Turner because he's shooting 41% in 18 minutes in 5 games? Lou and Jrue often have bad first halves, but they get the chance to rectify it, whereas ET gets the bench. Jodie had a terrible first 7 games with tons of minutes, but he still got a chance to rectify it. Only ET doesn't get the chance to rectify a bad 10 minute stretch. And 41% in 5 games 18 minutes is not really that bad. Lou had a stretch where he was shooting 30% over 5 games he started getting even more minutes.

Question 2: Easy, same answer as it's been all year. Less minutes for Meeks, more minutes for Turner. Meeks played 33 minutes tonight and shot 4 for 12. That's a joke for anyone, but especially for someone who literally provides nothing else on the court besides shooting. 29 out of 30 NBA teams use their 3-point specialist about 10-15 minutes a game as a spark if he's hot. We use our 3-point specialist over 30 minutes a game (lately) regardless of whether he's hot or not.

Sharone Wright reply to spiller27 on Feb 14 at 12:57

Brian, how are Meeks defensive statistics? From what I see, he's either just as good as ET, or maybe only slightly worse.

Meeks is generally covering the weakest guy on the other team. General observation shows that Meeks tries hard, but can't really stop anyone who has moves.

This is pretty accurate. Turner's the better defender, Meeks isn't really a liability unless he's stuck on a really talented scorer.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the fact that a discussion thread had to be made to debate this topic. There was actually a debate of who should start and get more minutes. Between Evan Turner and Jodie Meeks. The only thing as ridiculous as Collins' decision to start Meeks for 40 games is that 80 people (one-third) in the poll voted that Meeks should start. Dear god smh

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