DFDepressed FanDepressed Fan



, all the time

Smother Derrick Rose

Lou's going to go in BOSS mode if they try and put Lucas on him.

Let's hope he remembers that passing isn't a bad idea

Did anyone catch Collins on PTI last week?

Seanzybillups on Feb 1 at 12:30

Player of the game.....Jodie Meeks. I think he heats up the 3 ball tonight.

So I'm looking at the teams rumored to have interest in Kenyon Martin. LAL, LAC, NYK, MIA, SAS, ATL.

None of the teams has the full MLE (which the Sixers do), and some could only offer him the veteran's minimum.

Is the Sixers want him, they could offer him more money than the teams who have been linked to him.

Would that put them over the tax?

Yes - they're about 4.5 million under

Again - who says martin wants to play here?

If they gave him the full MLE, it would put them over. But they could offer more than the other teams without offering the full MLE. My main concern is that the MLE used to have to be a multi-year deal, and I wouldn't want any part of that.

As to whether he wants to come here, well, that's why it's relevant that they could offer him the most money. If the Sixers were clearly his first choice, or even on his list, then the money wouldn't matter. But if they want to get on his radar, they can offer the most money.

Dwight reply to Brian on Feb 1 at 12:56

I don't see Martin providing much more than what Allen and Vucevic already bring.

You've never seen Kenyon Martin play basketball then have you?

Dwight reply to GoSixers on Feb 1 at 13:00

Sorry but Kenyon Martin isn't the same guy that he was with the Nets.

So the last time you saw Kenyon Martin play he was on the Nets huh?

Dwight reply to GoSixers on Feb 1 at 13:05

No, I've seen him play quite a bit in Denver. He's become a solid role player for them. Just like how Vucevic and Allen have been solid role players for us.

So where would you place Martin compared to the current Sixers rotation?

Thad is your bench PF. Would you put Martin ahead of Battie or Voose as the bench C?

If they needed a reserve PF then I think Kenyon is better than what they have on the roster behind Thad. But with Brand and Thad they already have PF covered, so we are talking minutes at C.

Martin is a better player than Battie, but I don't think he is a better C than Battie. I'm sure he is a bit better than Voose at C, but i'd rather give Voose the minutes right now. Becasue if Voose is getting beat you can always give Battie a few extra minutes.

Dwight reply to tk76 on Feb 1 at 13:12


Dwight reply to tk76 on Feb 1 at 13:12

I'd definitely put him ahead of Battie, but it's hard to put him ahead of Vucevic. Since we're not that great at getting defensive rebounds I don't think we can afford to go smaller.

If Hawes continues to miss time and Vucevic becomes the starter then signing Martin might be a good idea.

Really, I put Battie ahead of Voose right now when it comes to defense and rebounding.

Dwight reply to tk76 on Feb 1 at 13:20

I agree. But I think Vucevic would be the better all-around player because of how we can work through the post with him on offense. Collins' offense relies on good post big men.

So - you think the Nikola is a better defensive rebounder than Martin huh?

You know boxing out matters right - now just height?

Dwight reply to GoSixers on Feb 1 at 13:16

I agree that Martin's better at boxing out but Vucevic's height and long arms have help make up for that. It's a lot tougher for Martin to get rebounds when he's going up against bigger and taller centers than smaller power forwards.

Also, per 82games.com, Martin played almost all of his minutes at PF last year. So it is not clear that his rebounding and defense will translate if he is call upon to be the undersized C next to Thad at PF.

Agree. Martin would bring 6 hard fouls and some depth. But unless the Sixers are going to be without Hawes for the rest of the year I am not sure it worth giving Martin Millions.

Assuming they get guys back, I'd rather Battie as the guy getting vet minutes and ensuring that Voose and Lavoy get some regular minutes so that they are ready to contribute come playoff time.

I'd consider someone like Rasheed circa 2 years ago, but I don't put Kenyon at that level at age 34. Although his per/36min numbers last year for Denver were respectable enough (12/8.7 on 51%)

I'd view Martin as depth at the 4/5. He'd be the 9th guy in the regular rotation with everyone healthy. Most importantly, he'd give you a defensive presence off the bench and he'd allow you to cut Brand's minutes back enough to keep him fresh for the playoffs.

if it's for this year only, I'd be on board. Wouldn't sign him for more than the remainder of this season, though.

Once Hawes is back, I don't see any issue with Brand's minutes. between Battie, Voose and Allan they have several live bodies that can ensure Brand gets rest. It really was only the matter of loosing both Hawes and Voose that really made them rely too heavily on Brand.

Are you expecting issues with both Voose and Hawes all year? I guess it is possible in such a compressed season where it is hard to get fully well.

Most importantly, he'd give you a defensive presence off the bench

Yup, defense matters, and honestly, to me, he moves ahead of Lavoy and Nikola because of such things if he's signed (and in shape)

Lavoy is a nice piece to have in case of injury but I woudln't be surprised to see his minutes sliced once nikola and hawes return (assuming hawes ever decides he's ready to play again)

I agree about lavoy- but he is the only big that consistently generates some O-boards, so maybe he keeps his minutes.

Overall, I give Voose the edge since he fits into the role that Hawes plays, so they can run the same schemes they do with Hawes. But Battie is a much better man defender in the post. Martin probably is too, in a Brand sort of physical way.

Wait - you mean the sixers big man depth is weak - because defensively most of the big men on the team aren't very good?

They have strebgth in numbers when they Hawes and Voose are available.

Obviously each of the players is sub-par. But as a unit they are not half bad. They have a number of guys who fit their scheme (Hawes, Voose, Lavoy) and then a guy who is a good one on one defender (Battie), a guy who is a bull (Brand), and Thad who is a scoring machine.

So taken as a unit there is a fair amount the coaches can get from this squad.

Looking at reb rate, Martin still cleans up the D-Boards really well ()24% last year) but he no longer is a force generating O-Boards (probably since he is now a step slow.)

Well, since defensive rebounding is all I'd really want him to do, I don't really care about his offensive rebounding rate...the sixers are weak defensively at rebounding because the sixers big men as a group can't rebound defensively, and while it's not important to many here, it's important to me, which is why i said a week ago the sixers big man depth was weak (and was soundly berated for it), because how many offensive rebounds did ryan freaking anderson get monday night?

Offensive rebounds to me are nice - they're a bonus - but the big men are supposed to clean up the defensive glass, and more often than not - the sixers 'big men' don't (or can't) yet Martin is pretty damn good at it

Dwight reply to GoSixers on Feb 1 at 13:23

Yeah, but it's not just a defensive rebounder that we need. We need a guy who can play the center position effectively and get defensive rebounds.

And I bet you kenyon martin can do that still...it's not like there are a lot of 'real' centers in the NBA anyway

KMart played 1200+ minutes last year.

1100+ of those minutes were next to Nene. So how can we assume he will be effective next to Thad?

I actually think Martin would be a good option to play the five in this lineup:

Martin, Young, Iguodala, Turner, Holiday.

He's not young anymore, but he's still very active and has an athleticism edge on most fives. That's a more athletic version of the same lineup w/ Brand in it, and there are definitely times when Collins can't use that lineup because Brand has already played too many minutes.

In fact, I'd probably go right from the starting lineup to this lineup in the first quarter. Completely different look that turns up the heat on both ends, and you get some rest for EB.

Sure, he is a great fill in for Brand (basically he is Brand without the jumper.) And if Brand had an injury he would be a good fit. I'm just not sure that is where this team needs to go, because I don't know why that line-up gets any minutes when Hawes in place of Martin is so much more dangerous.

So in my mind, Martin is simply Brand insurance. he does not really have a spot if Brand and Hawes are healthy, since he is not the ideal fit next to Thad.

I don't know why that line-up gets any minutes when Hawes in place of Martin is so much more dangerous

Depends on the match up - and the need - I'm not sure how 'dangerous' Hawes will be when he returns - he was already showing signs of 'reversion' before his injury...it's a match up thing...the sixers don't have a 'go to' guy for defense in the big man depth (and I still believe that), Martin becomes that guy.

It's an interesting discussion though moot because the sixers haven't exactly shown that they're motivated to add to the roster (even when they need to) with much more than vet minimum players

Agree. This is not the type of move they make unless they loose a big for the season.

As for Hawes- I think his rebounding has been solid for quite a while. I also think his ability to play at the top of the key is something that Martin does not give you. I'm not really asking for production from Hawes, more that they get to run the offense as designed. While having Martin in the mid post does not exactly open up driving lanes for Thad or Lou. And Martin is yet another undersized big who will struggle to finish contested looks inside.

At least if they drive and kick it to an open Hawes he is likely to make the extra pass to reverse the ball to a wide open wing.

How weak at d-board were they befoer both Hawes and Voose went down?

Also, how can you assume that KMart's good d-board numbers playing exclusively at PF will translate to him playing at C for the Sixers- because there are no minutes available at PF.

I'd have to research that - but I know - for some reason - they were crap early in the first half in a lot of games and cleaned it up in the second half so the end of the game number is respectable...still doesn't excuse those first half disasters, and in the playoffs, those things can kill you

Yeah, I'm not certain either. But given how well Hawes was rebounding, I assume it was not a huge issue.

Hawes, Vose and Battie all have very good DReb rates.

Hawes: 27
Battie: 26
Voose: 22
Brand: 18

Not sure how sustainable those number are... but it does not point to a problem controlling the defensive glass. Especially when Iggy and Turner both crash at a good rate.

Defensive rebounding isn't really an issue. There are games where they get beat on the the glass, but overall they're at .749 on the season. I typically look for 75%, but 74.9% is 10th in the league.

they're dead last in offensive rebounding, which I guess is troubling considering they don't get a ton of easy hoops. it would be nice to get more putbacks.

It's less troubling than if they were dead last in defensive rebounding :)

I find it hard to believe with all the praise for the offensive rebounding of the big men :)

What's less sustainable to you

The team 3PT% Rate
or the league worse offensive rebound rate?

Not sure what you mean by less sustainable. Honest question.

Yeah I worded that weird

What's more likely - the 3PT% to drop out of the top 10 or the OREB% to rise into the top 20?

I think the 3pt shooting is sustainable. Meeks is a 40% guy. Jrue is a 39% guy. Lou and Iguodala have turned the corner with their 3's to be 33-36% guys (so are probably shooting a bit over their heads right now.) No one else shoots them. So why wouldn't they end up near the top?

Or are you talking 3p defense?

3 point shooting - i'm talking about

Holy - I didn't realize how good the sixers 3 point defense was this year - jeez #1

Probably the former. It's a little over 2% separating them from top 10 3p% and #20 in oreb%.

I don't think they really value o-boards as much as some teams though. Or I guess I should say they don't value them over floor balance to stop transition hoops on the other end. A lot of teams sell out for o-boards, and they pay a price for it.

The number they need to sustain is 3p% against.

Which is sub 30% (barely) - you really think that's sustainable?

I think being really good at 3 pt defense is sustainable. they have the athletes and the scheme to cover those shots. The guys who used to make mistakes are much smarter after a year+ of being coached up into a solid scheme.

But sure, 30% is not sustainable- not by a long shot :)

Here's hoping that all those orlando open looks (that were misses) was an aberration and not the beginning of something.

Hate to see korver scorch this team tonight

Who knows about tonight.

But overall, the open looks against Orlando were the aberration, because they were matched up against Dwight and were shorthanded in the frontcourt. Most nights there scheme is not to send nearly as many double teams or to have the guards crash the D-boards to where they leave their men open for 3's off of o-boards.

They do not have the players who grab O-Board. Thad is probably the only guy who wil turn garbage into gold (TM.)

Not getting O-boards puts a huge stress on the offense to be uber-efficient. They only balance it by eliminating TO's and hitting 3's. Otherwise there offense would really struggle.

Also, if you are of no threat on the O-boards you are inviting opponents to leak out.

Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 1 at 13:30

You were disagreed with for saying that the Sixers have poor frontcourt depth and none of the Sixers' big men could play defense. Big difference.

This is a quote from philly.com "Deep Sixer":

"Taken individually, the guy who looks like he’s missing Hawes’ presence the most is reserve guard Lou Williams. In the 12 games with Hawes, Williams is averaging 17.3 points per game and making 45 percent (68 of 151) of his field goals."

...That seems like a pretty weak journalistic exercise by Mitchell by blindly using stats. Anyone who watches this team (like a beat writer) knows that Hawes and Lou rarely are on the floor at the same time.

Hawes and Lou have played a grand total of 76 minutes. That represents 14% of Lou's total minutes and 22% of Hawes's minutes.

Sorry to nitpick one statement from Mitchell, but I think it is pretty illustrative of his limitations as a beat writer. He has not really done anything to distinguish himself and often comes across as reaching for even the most basic of analysis. I think a number of posters here could do a better job by simply watching the game and writing a brief commentary- let alone the actual bloggers who really put the work in.

Sharone Wright reply to tk76 on Feb 1 at 14:11

Bring Kate back!

Kate was great, but the break-up was inevitable. Talent advances.

Her first year was great, but then she jumped on the Iguodala sucks trade him for Monta Ellis bandwagon - which she kind of had to do to maintain her 'viewing numbers'.

ESPNW - interesting idea - but will it last?

She stood apart as anything but a company liner. Her love of the game, her writing clarity and her daring made her a must read for Sixers fans, though she got a little soft on Collins at times last year imo.

ESPNW future - who knows? It would seem Title IX created a vast pool of potential readers through the years.

Kate's recent reflective essay on CU/PSU/NCAA athlete culture provokes thought.

I was tempted to write something about his piece on trading for Howard, and how Iguodala is "grossly overpaid," but whatever. Doubt he'll be there long.

Numbers wise these two teams are pretty close in overall offense and defense, the bulls are better from the FT line (but not terribly good, as a team, below 74%)

The thing that sticks out right now is that the Bulls are the best offense rebounding team in the league (grabbing 32% of the available boards, which is sick)

Defensively the sixers are more middle of the pack (74.9% as brian stated) but keeping the Bulls off the offensive glass is going to be important.


This game should show why it is so valuable to have 3 guys on the perimeter that can all initiate and run the offense as well as defend very well. When jrue, iggy or turner are on rose that player should take a back seat to initiating and running the offense in order to focus on defending rose. It's games like these where I'm so glad we have these redundant players because all the redundant players are good.

Yeah, I don't see them as redundant, or at least I don't see the redundancy as a problem. It's a problem if you have a bunch of guys who can only do one thing, and they all do the same thing well. When you have three guys who can do multiple things, overlap doesn't really matter as much.

sooner reply to Brian on Feb 1 at 16:59

I guess I should have put quotes around redundant. I was using it sarcastically in reference to the many pundits who have said in the past that, specifically, turner and iggy are too similar.

I was trying to convey that it's good to have 3 guys that you're confident will do an exceptional job in guarding a player at the caliber of rose.

The consensus line is Bulls by 2, over/under 178.5 (91-88?).

Bulls and the under

11-2 team at home is a dog :)

the over/under seems fine to me. I'd never bet an NBA under.

Why should this be a tough matchup for Iguodala, the guy you labelled as the best perimeter defender in the league. Thats the guy you should want on Rose all game right? I would put Iguodsla on an "island" against Rose every minute he is on the court.

Dwight Howard is probably the best defender in the league, should he be put on Derrick Rose one-on-one?

Iguodala's better against wings, especially strong wings. he's not as good against quick guys who use their dribble to penetrate. Jrue's better against those guys.

Notice I said Iggy is the best "perimiter" defender not best defender in the leauge. Where did Howard come in at?

I think what he loses in speed guarding Rose he makes up with lenght. He is the best option to slow Rose down simply because he is going to be faster than any other Sixer they put in front of him too.

"Andre Iguodala might just be the best defensive player in the league. That's not an overstatement. There are guys in the league who can lock players down for 15-20 minutes a night, if they're motivated. No one does it like Iguodala does for 35 minutes per game."

Who wrote this?

Games like tonight are when the Sixers need Iguodala the most.

Looks like he answered the call. Don't expect to hear from you, though. Hard to say Iguodala sucks after that game.

As I was watching the game - start to finish (with the harrowing 4th qtr - thankful rose was hurt or being rested or whatever) - i got to wonder how after a game like this anyone can argue against iguodala being the best all around player on the team - periodd

I posted this comment almost an hour before tipoff but neither one of u guys had enough confidence in Iguodala before the game to make a response then.

Or maybe talking to a brick wall that really ignores the facts in front of them in favor of hatred gets boring?

Then why acknowledge me with your comment after the game then?

And once again, you will never hear me say Iguodala sucks. I say you opinion of him sucks.

Is my opinion of him too high, because I said he may be the best defender in the league, or is my opinion of him too low because I said the Sixers were better off having Jrue guard Rose?

You opinion is too high. As good as Iguodala is there are areas he could be better at. He has glaring flaws that you either ignore or just don't see, and I'm talking about the actual act of playing the game, not by what his stats are. I used to be an all in Iguodala fan until i noticed that he had hit his ceiling 3 seasons ago.

You mean like how I ignored the flaw that he has a hard time guarding really quick point guards? Like that one? The one that you attacked me for pointing out? I never said Iguodala was a perfect player, and I never said there are things he doesn't do well. For some reason you view appreciating the things he's great at, and he is truly great at some things, as me thinking he's great at everything when I've never said that was the case. I appreciate him for the player he is, which happens to be a damned good player.

That's my point right there, I don't think he is great at anything. Very good yes but never great

sooner reply to KellyDad on Feb 1 at 17:05

rose is ungodly quick and iggy is not(relative to rose). Rose is a pg iggy is a wing it is not an easy match up. Just like dwight howard tyring to guard d wade on the perimeter or chris paul trying to guard lebron. Also I know these example are extremes, just trying to get my point across.

Expand/Contract all comments

Leave a comment