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, all the time

Close. No Cigar. Again.

Sixers DRB% = 57.7%
Thunder DRB% = 74%

Sixers FTR = 13.3
Thunder FTR = 43.6

Same story for the sixers game after game. The same issues keep creeping in and the more time passes it will become evident those issues cannot be fixed with internal growth.

1. First, they can't rebound the ball on a regular basis. When they do they usually win. But to be a true contender you cannot have too many games when you struggle in the rebounding department.

2. Second, and more important they can't stop their scoring droughts by getting to the line the way great teams do. Just look at the Thunder who were struggling offensively after the first quarter but found ways to get cheap points at the FT line (even though they had an unusually bad shooting night from there too). They are a prime example of how a true contender plays.

I would say their TO differential dominance can somewhat mitigate the rebounding issue. But the continues FTR struggles are unacceptable and the team cannot move forward until they are fixed.

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eddies' heady's on Mar 1 at 8:52
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I remember you commenting during the game thread about that small lineup killing them when it happened. Didn't know what you were exactly referring to. Why do you suppose Doug did that? I mean, he had just brought Thad in for EB at the 2 min mark. Then he only leaves him in for 40 secs and subs him out for Turner? Was Doug trying to matchup to something Scotty Brooks had done or something?

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Fatalotti on Mar 1 at 8:55
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I think Doug HAS to change his late game philosophy. Playing isolation with Jrue for the last 3 minutes of every tight game is killing this team.

I know defenses play more aggressively in the end-game, but, especially when you have a lead, you can absolutely use that to your advantage. Ball movement against a defense that is primed to over pursue should be a lethal combination. Not moving the ball, and letting them trap to their heart's content...that's just boneheaded, especially since Lou isn't exactly the world's greatest at escaping traps.

I just don't know why you go away from your strengths at the most crucial part of the game. If you continually lose while going to your strengths, then you're just not good enough.

But if you continually lose by trying to win by relying on your weaknesses; well then, you're just asking to fail.

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Fatalotti on Mar 1 at 8:56
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Meant: playing isolation with Lou, not Jrue. Sorry.

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Spencer for hire on Mar 1 at 9:06
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.I will preface my remarks by saying Lou has improved defensively this year and seems to always play hard, butttt....

Our organization tells us Jrue will be a top 10 p.g., give him the ball to finish games. Our organization uses a #2 pick on E.Turner, give him the ball or trade him. And finally, our organization gives Thad, our matchup nightmare, 9 million a year, run plays for HIM to end games.

From my seat at the game I was pissed watching Thad sit down on the block, not moving, watching the "Lou show", most of the 4th quarter. And Jrue, had it "goin on" most of the game yet gets relegated to being a spectator also. Turner hasn't earned the burn yet but eventually they have to find out if he can at least.

I blame the coach for most of this and hope Lou opts out this summer but I highly doubt it, he is in heaven here and can do no wrong, why leave.

As far as our bigs, the rookies were awfull but why no Battie? Elton and Thad were gassed and had nothing left, again if our coach doesn't want the young guys out there play the vets before Elton has nothing left and breaks down again.

Ray Allen is 37 years old. How much are you willing to give up for him? Would Meeks + Nocioni be enough? I wouldn't really give up anything more for him.

Pretty good game. Whether its lack of talent or bad play calling, the last 5 minutes of the game was painful.
Against good teams, the Sixers do not have a guy who can close teams out. Lou isn't that guy either. He gets doubled and gets all flustered. Jrue and Iggy aren't either.
This alone(along with the pitiful rebounding) will keep them out of the second round of the playoffs and is going to lose them the division.
I think Hawes would make a difference in both departments. From what I remember he knocked down a lot of open shots in the clutch.
Knicks are winning this division. Mark it down. Probably not much else, but they will get that done which will put the Sixers into a 5,6 or 7 seed.

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Spencer for hire reply to Gdog on Mar 1 at 9:18
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I want R.Allen here next year for 28 minutes a night and to finish games. He will allow Jrue to run the offense at the end of games and force our coach to run our offense for 48 minutes.

Even if the celtics put ray allen on the market (rumors are they are aggressively shopping Rondo this morning) it won't happen. I'd like Ray Allen on the sixers for the rest of the season too, but in professional sports you don't trade with teams in your division (even if you play barely 5% of your games against them) and if you do you make them over pay. Ray Allen would be a nice piece, but the sixers would have to over pay...

Eh. If the Celts are blowing it up, I don't think they really care where they send their old guys. Making these moves points toward throwing in the towel on this season and it's not like trading Allen to the Sixers would have long term ramifications, like setting them up to dominate the division for years to come. If anything, if they can pry a young asset away from the Sixers, it could help the Celts whenever they're planning to be relevant again. Someone wake Thorn up and get him to make the call.

Yes, that makes logical sense. How often does logic apply to professional sports. How many teams understand sunk costs. How many NBA teams when they are going to trade a start not only say 'not in our division' but 'not in our conference' thus eliminating close to half of your trading partners.

Many things have evolved in the professional sports landscape but this whole 'dont trade with your enemy mentality' might not have gone away.

Not only that, there's another team out there that needs a SG, that I think has better assets to 'spare' than the sixers (They play in chicago) if the celtics moved Allen.

I thought Rip Hamilton was the answer in Chicago.

What would the Bulls give up? Taj Gibson and Asik are really the only young assets with any value they have and I'm not sure they'd be willing to move either of those guys, would they?

Boozer has been stepping up recently so maybe they would be. I think the bulls could afford to give up one of them more than the sixers could afford to give up a solid piece. Then again, there's only 2 weeks left, and if Rondo is the 'priority' not sure ainge can do two things at once.

Even if Rondo is priority, I'd say it's only 40:60 he moves in the next 2 weeks, off season, before the draft, more likely...

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Spencer for hire reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 12:44
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I want Allen over the summer if Brand is amnestied. Right now if we had Allen and Humphries, 2 guys that Brand's money may allow for, than our 2 holes, rebounding and finishing games would both be less of an issue.

I'm not a huge Humprhies fan, but he'd absolutely help this team. Wonder if NJ would be willing to trade him. He's on a one-year deal, maybe you can give them some picks.

Exactly the kind of trade I don't want them making. A stop gap move. If he really helps, sign him in the off season when you miss out on howard and amnesty brand.

Don't waste assets on less than half a season of a guy

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Spencer for hire reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 13:02
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I agree totally. Any trade that happens now I want the guy we get to be part of the teams future. Give up picks for a young talent but not a rental.

If Ainge cared about esoteric things when making trades, he would've never traded Perkins and broken up their spiritual core. If the Sixers want Allen, and he's available, they can probably get him. Maybe Noc + Lou. But they won't do that because w/out Lou they won't be able to score in crunch time.

Trading Perkins to the Thunder is different than Trading ray allen within your divsion, not to mention to your 'traditional enemy'. I'm not saying it makes sense.

This is a league where otis smith STILL has a job, where the magic are reportedly interested in monta ellis, but the warriors dont' want anything on the magics roster, FOR MONTA ELLIS. How bad is the Magic after dwight howard that they can't even get monta ellis?

Ryan Anderson is probably their only other desirable piece, and that's not an exaggeration.

You should hear how some folk talk about jameer nelson - it's funny - lakers heads think he would be their PG answer

Well, he'd be an upgrade. He'd certainly be a better guy to cover Lou Williams in the fourth quarter of a tight game than Derek Fisher.

And Anderson is in a contract year right? Is he an RFA or UFA this year?

He'll be an RFA.

Ok, so some trade value, but not a lot, and not to mention his salary isn't that huge.

But seriously, if you don't have assets that the warriors want for Monta Ellis, what the hell does that say about your roster?

I almost thought the warriors would give ellis away for a trade exception if they could find a taker :)

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 18:21
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A trade exception is better than whatever Orlando can offer outside of Anderson and Howard. Why would Orlando want 3 years of 7+ million for Reddick, Nelson or Turk?

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Spencer for hire reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 12:47
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J.Rich's contract isn't as bad now. If Howard is traded maybe he can be gotten.

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eddies' heady's on Mar 1 at 9:29
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This group of guys seem to lack a key intangible ingredient - toughness. That mean-streak stuff. That not in my house type attitude. That competitively-fueled drive of killer instinct. Rip your heart out shit.

I watch Jrue and see the potential oozing out intermittently but I often say that, as much as he seems to be level-headed and always in control of his emotions which is a good thing, it would be nice to see him get nasty on a mutha. That look in his eye. Sit back and watch me eat your lunch on both ends of the floor mindset. Everyone rally around me as your leader.

He's still young and maybe he'll take on more of a leadership role going forward, but I've always felt that leadership was instinctive and not exactly learned but more innate. Still doesn't preclude him from displaying impassioned play from time to time. Just ferventness.

Thad strikes me also as just this casual even-keeled player. Never too high or too low, scrappy, but not exuding vehement desire.

This is not a slam or knock on these two mentioned, just something I've noticed and wished were different. But not to the extent where they don't have their head about them altering focus on the mission at hand.

No one seems to have that indomitable spirit. Just ruthless attitude and mentality like Charles Oakley played with.

You asking for too much. He cant have everything. Jrue's strength lies in his cool demeanor and being in control when he plays. Think Mo Cheeks, or dare I say, Steve Nash. But point is every player is unique. For every Kobe Bryant, there are 10 Stephen Jacksons so I'm not necessarily sure that fieriness is the key to getting there. Temperament is not what separates you from your peers. it's skill.

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eddies' heady's reply to jkay on Mar 1 at 10:20
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Yeah, I agree with everything you said. Just wish there was an on-court guy that could light a fire under their collective asses. Or an enforcer type player. Someone with more fortitude when situations get tight because it seems like everyone goes to shit mentally when the going gets tough in close games at the end. At times it's like a bunch of softies out there.

Played D like Nash on Thunder 1st possession; Westbrook drive L to lane for wide open 12 ft J that fortunately missed... cool demeanor witnessed.

3/15, 12 points, 6 turnovers with Jrue on him and you decide to focus on one shot, which was a miss, as an example of Jrue's bad defense. That's stellar. You're a joke.

Now you're gettin' all gooey and defensive about Jrue, like Iggy before him. When you exalt him as a great defender on this blog, hard not to notice him trailing his man by 6 feet on first play of a big game. It's like a fly on your nose. Wasn't my focus. Just my needling observation in context of jkay's comment.

The joke is your scrolling genuflection towards two tier-2 players, ages 28 & 21.


No actually, the joke is you, and I admire brian's restraint. If it was my blog I would have sent you packing long ago.

If you don't like the voice, censor it. Where have I heard that before? Radical, dude.

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Rich reply to Dollar Bill on Mar 1 at 12:50
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He made an all star shoot 3/15 with 6 TO's and you complain. What is gooey and defensive about saying that is great defense? Iguodala was amazing so I guess there's nothing you can really say about him. If you are guarding Westbrook, you play off him and make him shoot jumpers. When he tries to drive like he did against Jrue last night, Jrue stoned him time and again, and forced him to shoot jumpers.

Would you have had him play him at the three point line like Jodie did and have him start shooting uncontested layups like Westbrook did against Jodie?

Here's the funny thing about the Jrue/Westbrook matchup last night. When I say Jrue is the best defensive PG in the league, the other two guys most often mentioned by other people are Rondo and Westbrook. Last night, Jrue stoned Westbrook. Completely locked him down. On the other end of the floor, when in isolation, Jrue made Westbrook look silly. That one move where he started, stopped, went behind his back, then got into the lane and finished with that lefty spinner off the backboard? That was sick.

Westbrook is just an unbelievable athlete, though. Unbelievable.

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Rich reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 13:04
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Nope, Dollar Bill saw him trailing a guy that you are supposed to trail. I'm convinced now. I thought Jrue was a "daring dervish" on that drive. He made another great move that should have went in too.

Last night, Malik Rose was right about Jrue still settling too much. If he can get in the paint on Westbrook and the shotblockers they have, he can do it against a lot of teams. He's very adept at finishing with his left hand.

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Sharone Wright on Mar 1 at 9:45
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Did you guys see how Westbrook got the fatal offensive rebound at the end of the game? He grabbed and pulled Iggy's arm, which twisted Iggy away propelled him toward the ball at the same time. Technically a foul, but a veteran play that is tough for the refs to catch. Voose was blocking out his guy and couldn't get there. Killer.

You're not "the best player on the floor" if your vanishing creme kicks in and you don't deliver a bucket for your team - when your team is in need of scoring - from 7:51 of the 4th until :06 left, compounded by a flaccid check-out effort in a critical rebounding situation off a missed FT with :05 left. That's playing "passively."

Best player on floor - offensively concave players in crunch time need not apply. If defense and assists are all that's in your warehouse, so be it; you're a supplement, maybe a strong one, but not a meal ticket. Good game by Iguodala. A great game by Iguodala would've included landing team on runway with a W. Take me to a pilot, Mr. Thorn (or whomever is calling the shots).

Most influential: Kevin Durant - 10 4Q pts (deep 3 on break with 4:45 left, a thing of beauty... mental strength/execution of rare talent; convex action in big moment), Russell Westbrook - 13 rbs (7 offensive), a daring dervish. Old friend Royal Ivey was big twice... corner 3, steal & bucket off Vucevic pout/mental lapse.

Thad Young, Sixers MDP, most dependable palpitant. Where would they be without him this season?

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Hobbes reply to Dollar Bill on Mar 1 at 12:24
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You mentioned "assists." I want to have hope in Holiday, who, today, is receiving almost unanimous praise for his mostly stellar game. But, the hope always feels strained. Putting aside the praise/criticism of Jrue's defense for a second, what about his dimes. He's down to 4.5 this year, which puts him low on the list of PGs for this stat, despite the team being top ten in shooting percentages. In last night's performance, for which we're all apparently clapping, he had three assists. Three!?

So far, Jrue, like all the rest on this team, has enough warts on him that it's just plain hard to be excited about any one part of our starting five. To my eyes, at least. I don't see excellence at any one spot on that starting unit. At least, not "excellence" around which to build (to be read, Iggy's been good, but he's getting long in the tooth for a guy who's game is hustle).

To the best of my recollection, there has been like one stretch of one game where Collins clearly said to Jrue "run this team" and he was able to do it. It was the Atlanta game where he had like 8 assists in the third quarter or something like that. Otherwise, he's basically been a scorer who drives/kicks occasionally and run the pick-roll/pop once in a while. He's really playing more two than one at this point. In the fourth quarter, he's playing the zero while Lou plays the one through five.

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Hobbes reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 12:56
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Not being contrarian or snarky, here, but how can we know what Collins is "saying" to Jrue about running the team?

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if he is saying or intimating as much. But that begs the question and the observation: why isn't our PG told to run the team? isn't it somewhat alarming that so many of our assets are hybridized players who are a little bit power-forward, a little bit swing-man; a little bit shooting-guard, a little bit point-guard.

I applaud this team for it's hard-working approach to the game. But, frankly, I'm tired of watching .500/.600 teams with no hopes of championships and a smoke-and-mirrors kind of quality to their success. When everybody does a little bit of everything, it's oh-so-hard to know what the hell you can actually stand to part with and what you need to keep. As much as I like all our guys, I'd be fine with parting with any of them.

There's no way to tell, and this is at least partly on Jrue as well. Even if he's put in a scorer's position, that doesn't mean he can't use his dribble to set guys up for easy looks like Iguodala was last night.

The thing you can hang your hat on is the defense. Even with the pitiful defensive rebounding last night and a series of intentional fouls at the end, they held the Thunder 5 points under their team OFR for the season, and they were able to do this while getting somewhere around 88 minutes from guys who range from below-average defenders to complete liabilities (Meeks, Lou, Allen, Vucevic).

To me, that means you can shuffle the decks elsewhere to get better offense with one-way players without sacrificing the excellent defense.

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Spencer for hire reply to Hobbes on Mar 1 at 13:09
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I know the record against good teams is far from stellar but every game was winnable minus the Miami games. Are they miles away or one or two steps?

Amnesty Brand and add to this group a player that makes Iggy our #2 or 1a [R.Allen?] and a solid rebounder in Humphries or Plumlee and we can compete next year, in my opinion.

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L. A. Steve reply to Hobbes on Mar 1 at 18:11
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Well said, but my feelings, in regards to Jrue Holiday is that he doesn't have the intrinsic skills of a 1. For example, at the end of last night's game he should have demanded the ball, and made the play for himself or a teammate by driving the lane, drawing the defense, and executing the best option available: hit the open man, get to the line, or finish the play himself. He's suppose to be the quarterback; with the game on the line, he's should be in the middle of everything.

Too often, during the last 5 minutes of a close game our offense becomes rudderless, we panic, it looks like no one is capable of running the team. Last night, like so many other close games, you could feel the game was heading for the L column.

Now don't get me wrong, Jrue is a player, and last night he put up good numbers. I just don't think he's a 1, maybe that'll change in the future, but, I don't know?

I wonder, would Boston do Holiday for Rondo, would you?

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Gosixers reply to L. A. Steve on Mar 1 at 18:21
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Were you in the huddle? You have no idea what instructions the coach gave the team. Are you suggesting Jrue should take over as the point even though it seems that the coach doesn't want him running it, especially when Lou Williams is in the game?

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Hobbes reply to L. A. Steve on Mar 1 at 19:02
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I don't see the 'intangibles' in Jrue's offensive game, either. He's still maturing, of course. But he looks to me like the makings of yet another in a long line is 'serviceable Sixers'......Iggy, Lou, Thad, and now Jrue (the history is deeper than that, but....). Serviceable. Honorable mention. Solid B pupils. Nice players. L.L. Bean fashions. Seems like we're a virtual outlet store that peddles in that product line.

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Gdog reply to Dollar Bill on Mar 1 at 16:24
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Pretty damn accurate analysis. Vanishing creme...love it.

Unless your happy with getting bounced out in the first round every year or not making the playoffs altogether---Sixers should really consider going for broke and try to get Dwight Howard. This is a basketball town when the team is good. No player on this roster with the exception of perhaps Jrue(because you need a decent pg, even if hes not the greatest) should be considered trade bait.

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Rob_STC on Mar 1 at 10:31
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Brian,

Totally agree with you on the big man. Hawes would not have been the difference in this game. He is a finesse big man. Lavoy is more of a banger but he is too green. We need a serviceable big man more than anything right now.

Sixers have a lot of needs right now, long term. I'm hoping they don't crap the bed and try and add a piece that works for this season but cripples the future.

If you want some amusement - check out Colin Cowherd this morning - he compares the 2012 Knicks to the 2011 Mavs. It's funny

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William on Mar 1 at 11:31
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I think not having a late game scorer is a problem in these close games. Teams just double team Lou now when we try to run plays in those "clutch" situations. As simple as it is, most teams run iso with their best scorers in those situations. Having a guy that can draw contact and get to the line would definitely help. A defensive, shot-blocking center (dalembert!!!!!!) would be nice too, but they seem harder to come by and when u do get them, teams has a tendency to overpay.

Maybe if Lou williams knew how to deal with being double teamed the sixers would do better?

Maybe if collins didn't fall into the 'run the iso' trap that so many teams run into?

Isos are much easier to defend, and when the guy being iso'd drowns when he's doubled, they're even easier to defend. Guys KNOW they can leak of their primary defensive assignment because they aren't getting the ball.

The sixers need coaches who can coach late game situations instead of just saying 'you four stand around - lou, do something' - that's asinine coaching if you have kobe bryant on your team...RUN the offense that worked for the first 46 minutes of the game, jesus

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The Six on Mar 1 at 11:46
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What is everyones take on Rod Thorn? Is the overall confidence level high that he can take this "good" team and make the right moves to become great (luck factor notwithstanding).

On another note, the Turner draft really bothers me now. No I am not saying that he will suck his whole career or anything. I compare it to the year the Flyers had the number 2 pick and selected JVR. He was the right pick at the time for them, but you look at the quality players in previous drafts(Malkin for example) that were available at #2 overall, and I think, "and we get JVR?". Same thing with Evan Turner. Freaking Durant went #2 overall. Turner was the guy I wanted to draft, but man that was a week draft. Just dumb luck.

Was he really the right pick at the time, though? I mean, it was hard to argue against taking him w/ his resume, but was it clear that he was BPA or fit a team need?

Well the consensus was that he was the best player available, even though i didn't agree with the assessment at the time. And i still think Favors was the way to go in that draft despite him not really bursting onto the scene yet.

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Spencer for hire reply to Xsago on Mar 1 at 12:54
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I was discussing the Pistons after the game and a friend said how lame they are but I answered that with," but at least they have a young p.g./big man combo".

Favors and Jrue, because of age and positions made too much sense at the time.

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The Six reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 11:59
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If I could change it, Cousins would be the guy. Hands down.

Hmm...you must be new here. Brian NEVER would have drafted Cousins :)

I might have depending on how the interview with him went. We won't know.

And here I thought brians original comment was about some hockey dude...i don't know nothing about hockey except that when the flyers lose in the playoffs it's always cause of weak goaltending, always

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The Six reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 12:07
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I know Brian doesn't like Cousins. It's OK to disagree. I look at him and see a guy who has a chance to be truly great. Although I'm certainly aware that he acts like a child today.

If it was only his attitude, I'd hold out more hope for him. The .498 TS% for a "dominant" big man is laughable, though.

Sometimes I think your expectations of a second year player with one year of college might be a little high. Guys take time to develop and Cousins is in a bad situation...yes he has issues, but the kings aren't dealing with them properly (in my opinion).

Dude has talent out the ass, if you sit with him and believe he's willing to work, and you believe he can mature, drafting him over evan turner was a no brainer.

Did the sixers even meet with Cousins?

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 17:27
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And even in this bad situation, he's one of the three best rebounders in the league. So there are a couple of ways his career could go in a pretty good direction; he could stop taking the crappy shots from outside and get better around the rim (somehow or another this year he's made just 51.6% of his shots around the rim, which is awful), or he could take on a reduced role and focus on being the league's best rebounder.

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Tray reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 17:29
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That said, it should be noted that Cousins is a better midrange shooter than most of the perimeter players on our team. This year he's shot 42% from both 10-15 and 16-23 feet. At this rate he might become a decent three-point shooter, or at least a strong pick-and-pop player.

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GoSixers reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 17:32
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It should also be noted that due to his size and strength it's asinine that he takes shots from those ranges...he can do more damage down low. Dude got 2 fouls on dwight howard in a game (in orlando I THINK) in under 2 minutes.

He should be CLOSER to the basket not further away

Moving further from the hoop is a great way to expend the least amount of energy possible and keep your TS% below .500.

Look at it this way, if he shoots a 20-footer, that means he only has to disinterestedly jog about 70 feet instead of the 85 he'd have to jog to go down on the blocks.

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GoSixers reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 17:38
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I'm not getting in between you and tray in a cousins discussion, it's worse than all tuner debates

Tray isn't allowed to talk to me about Cousins until his TS% is above .500 for two weeks straight.

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Tray reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 17:43
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Should also be noted that he shot 32% for 3 or 4 games in November, outside of that he's probably over .500.

Should be noted the bad games actually count, you can't just throw them out. Although I guess those games were at a YMCA or something because the NBA was in a lockout in November.

I'm on your side with Cousins, I would have drafted him, but Collins I think would have killed him (quite possibly literally)

I've made my feelings on cousins and his issues abundantly clear (and been berated for them enough) that I won't get into it again...I have my own theories on Cousins issues and fixing them, and Sacramento isn't doing what is needed to maximize his talent, or potential.

Like I said, the interview would have been a key issue, and it wouldn't have been comfortable for cousins either

Talent / potential wise, most saw him as the biggest upside in the draft, his mental make up scared the crap out of not just the sixers :)

Funny though, he'd fit perfectly on the wizards right now :)

Do you remember what Minny's second pick was? #12? In hindsight, if I could do the draft over I would try to trade down with them and pick Monroe at #4 and then the best SG available with the second pick. I would say Paul George of course but he went #10. In a draft with no superstars, that seems to be the best value to the team, rather than just picking Favors or Monroe at #2.

If we traded down to #4 it would've been Wes Johnson, guaranteed.

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The Six reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 12:18
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Absolutely. Collins LOVED him. He wouldn't shut up about him. I remember it vividly.

Is it known that Minnesota offered that trade?

Brians right on Johnson too, every one seems to want to rewrite history. Monroe wasn't projected to do as well as he has done.

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MCT reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 12:20
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Yeah I know, I just mean in hindsight. As for the trade, I think they did offer the two picks for #2. I think the rumors about Jefferson being involved were just rumors and not confirmed. Although I may have that backwards.

If the t'wolves offered the 4 and 12 in the draft for the #2 and the sixers passed on it - that was a mistake - in my opinion. If that was a real offer, they should have takent it. I never believed it was a real offer cause it seemed too much in a weak draft.

The T-Wolves had a huge boner for Turner. I can't remember if that deal was offered or not, but it was rumored. At the time, I didn't want it. Dropping to 4 took Turner and Favors off the table.

Right now, I'd trade Turner for Pekovic without blinking.

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Rich reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 13:12
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I would too, maybe even trading Lou for him because I don't really want to pay him too much. No way they would do that though.

Turner would be a big upgrade for them, even if he just plays 30 minutes of wing defense for them on a nightly basis.

But they ain't trading peckovic for him - not right now - his value has sky rocketed :)

Plus there's another one of those maxims regarding trading height :)

ANd it's david kahn

Yep. They wouldn't do it. I wouldn't if I was running the T-Wolves.

Probably, that would've been even worse than ET

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Spencer for hire on Mar 1 at 13:37
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Do you guys think Thorn, through his experience and infinite wisdom, could see L.Will. as a crutch Collins leans on at the detriment to his other young players and trade him just to shake things up?

Don't really think they have that type of relationship. I seriously doubt Lou gets moved.

No, for a couple reasons.

I think Collins holds sway on the roster make up during the season.

I don't think the ownership group wants to rock the boat while the sixers are in first place

I also don't think Thorn is anything more than a figurehead at this time

I have no idea who's calling the shots, but I hope it's the same guy who nixed the Iguodala for Monta deal on draft day. If you think about it, there couldn't be a better sign than that. Making that trade would've been a popular move in the press and among the Philly.com/WIP segment of fans, plus it would've saved the team money. The fact that those two things aren't (or at least weren't) a priority is a positive sign.

I still want to know who agreed to that. Rumor is that new owners nixed it - but do we know who pushed it - was it collins, was it thorn, was it someone else.

If it was thorn - fire his ass

My guess would be either Thorn or Snider on his way out the door.

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Spencer for hire reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 13:51
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The fact that fans are showing up more hopefully will give creedance to an opening of their wallets this summer, that and the Iggy's prime window being right now factor.

Time for a big move this summer or use Iggy for a rebuild starting point.

but do they need a big move or just a league average, Sam Dalembert or Reggie Evans or even Kaman type guy who won't kill them on the boards? Is there anyone out there that Nocioni + the Speights exception + possibly Lou can get you who will be the Joe Blanton type of average but not killer guy that could get them one or two extra boards a quarter...and the 4-6-8 points per game that wins games like last night, the Clips and the TWolves games?

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Matt reply to das411 on Mar 1 at 14:12
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I hate Humphries, but he'd fit the bill and wouldn't interrupt our cap situation.

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johnrosz on Mar 1 at 15:16
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Here's the thing that really bothers me about this whole situation. You've basically got three lines of thought, right?

1. Evan Turner just can't play with Andre Iguodala.
2. Evan Turner just can't play with Lou Williams.
3. Evan Turner just can't play with Jrue Holiday.

At what point does the sentence end after the word play?

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MCT reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 15:32
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Are they all fact though? I don't agree that he can't play with Jrue, personally. I think he can't play long stretches with Dre but they can play together some. I think when he plays with Lou, he just stands in the corner or forces bad shots. The Meeks / Lou / Turner trio is especially bad for him because then he becomes your SF (not strong enough yet, if he ever will be) and best wing defender on the floor. And he is not nearly good enough to be your best wing defender in any lineup. If he is your third best defender, like he is with Jrue and Dre, he isn't a liability but an asset.

All in all he isn't a good fit here. I refuse to completely write him off as a player but I think I am ready to write him off with this team and this coach. Trade him for something.

I'm not saying any of them is true. But I keep hearing these things as excuses for why Turner hasn't been good. If he can't play with any of those guys, I guess he can really only play with a couple of guys like Meeks out there with him who don't need the ball at all and will defer to Turner. Like set up the same situation he had at Ohio State: Turner, maybe one or two big men who can convert interior passes, and then a bunch of other players who will just defer to Turner.

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MCT reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 15:42
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"Like set up the same situation he had at Ohio State: Turner, maybe one or two big men who can convert interior passes, and then a bunch of other players who will just defer to Turner."

Sounds like a lottery team to me, lol. But yeah, you're right, the excuses are piling up and they're becoming more and more absurd. Whatever the reason is, I think it is pretty clear that he isn't getting better anytime soon.

I've been pretty hard on him lately, and I was a pretty big supporter in the beginning. The few times I do say something positive about him, I'm just reacting to eddie's or someone who will say something ridiculous about him. Most of the criticism is completely fair. His future is not bright it seems.

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Hobbes reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 15:43
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I don't want to accept the possibility that Turner is, at best, a second unit player. Mostly, that's because, as a 76er fan, I'm 99% scar tissue and it's depressing to think that we finally get a #2 pick and it's in a crap draft year and we get a crap conssensus #2 player. That part of me likes to hope that Collins is crushing a player with some skills and a fragile ego.

But...

Frankly, he looks like junk. And even when he finished with good stat lines (some playoff games, some early games this year), he still looked pretty gawky on the floor.

I'll admit that the 'ideal' Turner probably would not fit well with ball-hungry Lou or small-forward Iggy or point guard Jrue. Someboody would have to leave the room. You'll have that when your team is compromised largely of tweener-types-Iggy the sometimes point forward, Lou the shooting point guard, Jrue who's the point guard with a shooting guard college career. But, after I admit that, will everyone else admit that Tuner the real and turner the ideal are two different people entirely, and that the former pretty much looks someone who's outmatched on the court, 6 nights out of 7?

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MCT reply to Hobbes on Mar 1 at 15:52
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"will everyone else admit that Tuner the real and turner the ideal are two different people entirely, and that the former pretty much looks someone who's outmatched on the court, 6 nights out of 7?"

I can't speak for everyone else, but I certainly would have to agree with this.

I don't know if he's overmatched. I feel like he wants to play a different way, w/ a bunch of 1/4 isolation sets where he can dribble the ball a ton and work to get his own shot, make a pass if he doesn't. That's not his role on this team, and it's never going to be, and he's either unwilling or unable to play the role the team needs him to play.

The underlying question, and the one that's going to define whether he's a bust for his entire career or not, is whether even if he was put in that position to play exactly how he wants to play would he have the ability to score efficiently? I mean, you're talking about dedicated your offense to putting Turner in his comfort zone. If he's a middling scorer with that level of responsibility, then your whole team is screwed because everything is predicated on him being so good in that situation that defenses need to use two and three defenders to stop him.

Bust is really a relative term. Even if Turner spends his whole career absolutely blowing on the offensive end, he's still a good enough defender, ballhandler and rebounder to be a solid rotational player. If the offense is just never there, he's a bust because of where he was picked. If he carries the "I was the player of the year in college, just give me the damned ball" chip on his shoulder, though, he may never be able to accept that his ceiling is a solid rotational guy.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 16:11
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It's just more of the same square peg/round hole stuff we saw during the Stefanski tenure. They probably should have moved Iguodala the day they drafted Turner if they had aspirations of building the team around him.

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Rich reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 16:22
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Have to agree with the idea of him being a good enough defender rebounder to be rotational, sort of like a Marquis Daniels type. That's sad too. At the beginning of the season, his defense/boards and average efficiency 10 PPG were awesome as an 8th man. Now that he hasn't been able to put the ball in the hole for a long time, he still doesn't hurt the 2nd Unit. He just doesn't have much of an effect at all.

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Matt reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 16:23
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Your 2nd paragraph sounds like Lou Will.

Your 3rd paragraph sounds like Marvin Williams.

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CM reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 17:07
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I guess I'm in the camp that believes the Sixers have not put Turner in the best position to succeed. I've been advocating that he would be best served in the Lou Williams role.

Truth be told, he hasn't shown enough to be featured as a ball-dominant guard in a starting role.

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GoSixers reply to CM on Mar 1 at 17:19
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He hasn't succeeded in any role he's been put in - consistently - and he's been put in the roles the team needs him to succeed in.

The sixers do not revolve around Evan Turner, they never were going to. If he can't succeed in the roles the sixers need him to succeed in, he needs to be gone

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CM reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 17:24
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I don't disagree with that.

It looks more and more like it was just a bad pick/wasted opportunity.

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GoSixers reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 17:01
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Anthony Macri
I have never made it a secret that I am not an Evan Turner fan. I think he is just a shade above average, mostly because there isn’t any one thing he does really, really well. I think he is one of the more disappointing players (especially given his status as a #2 overall pick) – and I hope he can have an ok career as a back-up maybe low-usage starter for a playoff contender.

am i going crazy, im trying to talk myself into trading for Beasley?

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Spencer for hire reply to sixerfan1220 on Mar 1 at 16:17
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I am watching last nights Milwaukee/Boston game and Ilyasova is looking pretty good. To me Humphries is too much like Elton offensively, ineffective, and our team needs more scoring.

Ilyasova is rebounding off the charts [12.7 per 36 min.] and is unrestricted this summer but has any N.B.A. team challenged for a title with 2 euro players at the 4 and 5 if Vuce starts next year?

ive read that iiyasova wants to go back home(i think hes from turkey) after this year

Ilyasova *

A guy like him could make anywhere from 2-5 million on the open market easily. He won't come close to making that in Turkey. why would he turn down the money?

i saw the report earlier in the year, maybe him playing so well has changed his mind, i guess we'll find out at the end of the year

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Spencer for hire on Mar 1 at 17:15
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Sixers waived F.Elson, according to hoopshype. Could a move be coming?

That's odd. Why would they waive him if there wasn't something else coming?

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CM reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 17:20
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Obvious answer - b/c he's a non-factor.

Is he at a point where his contract was about to be guaranteed for the remainder of the season?

Pretty sure that point already passed, unless he was on two consecutive 10-day contracts. If it was just a vet minimum deal, they all became guaranteed a couple of weeks ago.

Actually, here you go. His second 10-day contract ended, so it was either sign him for the rest of the season or cut bait.

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GoSixers reply to CM on Mar 1 at 17:25
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What he said - to save money

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 17:31
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I agree.

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GoSixers on Mar 1 at 17:42
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According to Eric Pincus on Hoopsworld, in a chat, Kris Humphries in the same 'trade boat' as Spencer Hawes

It means he can (and probably will) veto any trades because by being traded he gives up his 'bird rights' options.

Not sure, but I don't think they have bird rights for him. He was unrestricted last summer and signed a one-year deal with Nets.

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GoSixers reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 17:47
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Just relaying information - it was a hoopsworld chatter, and while they are better than ESPN chatters - they aren't infallible - though I posted the macri quote on turner cause he's the guy who called out speights for work ethic and 'money drive' in his second season - early - in response to a chat question - i think he knows his stuff

I might be wrong about the bird rights thing, not entirely sure. Thought QO was the only way you retain Bird Rights w/ a one-year deal.

I think it's time to trade Lou Williams. Not because I dislike his game or think he's the reason why the Sixers are playing poorly. I just think it's time to move on. I don't think he's worth the money it will take to extend him and I don't see much improvement in his game. It's sort of like the Ben Gordon situation from a few years ago. Gordon was a good player and at times he carried the Bulls in the playoffs but the Bulls had to move on divert their resources elsewhere.

This has nothing to do with Evan Turner's development or forcing a change in Collin's system. You should either get something for him while you can or let him walk in the off season. Extending him in the off season at market value should not be an option.

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Tom Moore on Mar 1 at 19:36
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Sixers story (with Young, Collins video interviews): Turner's minutes are decreasing:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/sports/sixers/turner-s-role-is-decreasing/article_b05513ef-cc85-5392-9c6a-323049c962f4.html

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GoSixers on Mar 1 at 21:20
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I'm convinced that barkley asked TNT to hire Shaq so Chuck would look like he knows more...man shaq is dumb

...can he still rebound??

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The Six reply to GoSixers on Mar 2 at 0:03
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I don't think Chuck wants/needs to share the spotlight with anyone. I'm quite sure it wasn't his idea. And Sir Charles does offer some good analysis in my opinion. It isn't detailed but its straight forward and to the point. His thoughts on the sixers are simple but accurate: "The sixers struggle because they can't get any easy baskets. They have to work too hard for each basket". I think that's dead on.

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GoSixers reply to The Six on Mar 2 at 10:27
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Aside from the fact I disagree with your take on Chuck's analysis, I was also making a joke.

assuming curry plays tomorrow, do you have jrue guard curry or ellis

Thinking about the Sixers lack of options in late games... and the lack of quality bigs available, brings me to Eric Gordon. Jrue/Gordon/Iggy would be tremendous (when healthy.) Any chance a package involving ET gets it done? This would be the time to strike since Gordon's value is low with injuries and a contract that will run out.

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MCT reply to tk76 on Mar 1 at 23:09
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It would be nice, but I doubt it. The injuries may concern them but he is a RFA right? So they can match any offer he will get?

It would be funny if ET, Aminu, and Minny's mid 1st round pick is all that the Hornets are left with after the Paul trade. That's a pretty crappy deal for them.

Does Evan Turner have a psychologist? If not, why not?

Isn't this a logical step for a player the team has already put a lot of resources in, who we know has confidence issues and issues adjusting? You can't deny that the Evan Turner we saw earlier in the season who would take the ball coast to coast is a quality player.

Can we please start the "Get Evan Turner to a therapist" campaign before we start the "Trade Evan Turner" campaign?

He has quite a few armchair psychologist at this very site.

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Tray reply to tk76 on Mar 2 at 1:25
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Speaking of armchair psychologists, GoSixers' would-be patient, Cousins, had another ho-hum 23/10 night on 17 shots.


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