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Sixers Continue To Bully Bad Teams

I don't think it's about coddling Turner, I think it's about doing what's best for the team. When Turner was getting regular (if limited) minutes the team was doing better. When Turner's minutes plummeted, so did the team. More minutes for Turner is good for the team and we've seen that all year.

Meeks getting the "ace of spades" is LOL-worthy. Wouldn't shock me if Collins is planting the seeds of expanding Jodie's role again and he needs to convince whatever boss (my money is on Levien) that forced him to start Turner.

Developt Turner and Turner and Jrue chemistry is the must on this team, also get a NBA legit big but this is for another post. Jrue and Turner need to learn how to mesh because right now they are like night and day, when one comes up the other goes down, I think its ok because OKC is still trying to figure that and they have been codled all the way from their draft nights with minutes and mistake you way trying to figure out the game, and their boys do have more talent then ours, so it takes time I guess. But Collins win now at all costs its killing this developtment. Developt young players and trying to win now as the same time is to squizophrenic, they should decide which way they want to go. Developt young players gets you TOs, bad shooting nights, bad defense nights, it happens. But Collins want no part of this. Do you see Rick Adelman coaching ? He don't freak out and almost blows a vein in the brain with mistakes, guys play free, learn. Playing to not make a mistake is like playing to not loose, what happens ? You loose way more than not.

bebopdeluxe reply to spiller27 on Mar 20 at 10:18

Giving Meeks the Ace of Spades had more to do, IMO, with trying to send a message to Turner - and the rest of the team - about INTENSITY. When Meeks came in, he definetely brought some fire...he was aggressive on his man on D, crashed the boards...in short, he was doing the things that Turner (and the other players) weren't doing. I do not think it was a coincidence that right after Turne was pulled, the Sixers put the hammer down. It is just a shame that it took making an example out of Turner to do it.

I am one of Turner's biggest supporters, but I had NO problem with what Collins did. There has been a notable (to me, anyway) dropoff in intensity to Turner's play the last 2-3 games. Stop bitching to the refs, bro. Enough with the silly schoolyard passes. You want the refs to respect your game? You want to be thought of as a star?

Then ACT like it. PLAY like it.

South Broad reply to bebopdeluxe on Mar 20 at 10:34

Turner needs to decipher the difference between cocky and confident. Cocky is more me-oriented and confident lends itself to more team-oriented. The kid really does think he's a star for some reason. But as you said, his play and his actions don't exude the same thing.

Turner needs to go out with the mindset of getting at least 20 every night. When he is super aggressive, the whole team feeds off of it. We know Iggy is not an Alpha Dog on the offensive end and we know Jrue shouldn't be the alpha dog on the offensive end. We need the roles to be more clearly defined moving forward and it starts with Turner focused on getting 20 points by constantly attacking. Let Iggy flirt with 10/10/10 and Jrue get 8 dimes. That has to be the formula.

More importantly, how are the Sixers going to get a big man so we don't have to watch Omer Asik acting like he's Dave Shultz? ESPN has an article today about cap room that says we can get 20m under the cap by using the amnesty on Brand. Do we do that or do we use his expiring as a chip in the offseason? We cannot re-sign Hawes. He's just too weak. By this time next year Vucevic will be as comfortable offensively and equally as weak at 1/5th the price. How do we play this hand? There are so many teams with cap room this summer I can't see how the Sixers make out. Without an enforcer on the back line we cannot compete. I wonder what could have been had we stuck with Sammy D. To say Hawes' ball-friendliness outweighs Sammy's presence in the middle is BS. We gave away the defensive presence we so desperately lack right now. It drives me nuts.

Interesting article on Iguodala:


For some reason I think the most interesting part is actually the Turner quote at the end.

My favorite 'informed' quote, and has been for his entire year is Dick Vitales, because it sums up what he knows about basketball and how college play translates to the pros so elegantly and succinctly

bebopdeluxe reply to scott on Mar 20 at 11:40

The way the writer ended that piece made ZERO fucking sense.

well, it was kind of a shot at Turner. The whole piece was about how Iguodala embraced the more important parts of the game and when asked about that Turner basically said, hey I can score.

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Mar 20 at 12:15

I know that it was a shot at Turner. I am just trying to understand why the writer - after a decent, thought-provoking piece on Iguodala - would choose to end the piece with a shot at Turner. If the point was to juxtapose Turner's comment with the perception of Iguodala's value, he could have done it in a bit more graceful way...that's all.

Yes, but what does grace have to do with the internet age. It's about eyeballs, comment, and controversy. Never say something with grace when you can present it in a way to fuel conflict and conspiracy and argument among your internet posters

actually i think he was describing Iguodala as a precipice/set-up to his question and then Turner thought he was describing him (ET) and quickly rushed to debunk any misconception about his scoring ability.
It's a shot at Turner but I thought it was hilarious too. Lmao.

Well written article. I liked his use of quotes and the picture is great.

As for the Turner bit, it was amusing if a bit out of place. But Evan, you may be able to score, but you still are yet to be able to shoot- which is the criticism about Iguodala.

It talks about Iguodala shooting only about 34% away from the rim, which is a good point. But to fair, Iguodala's eFG% on non-inside shots is a respectable .454 this season. Way up from previous years and a bit better than Kobe.

Looking at others and over time, Iggy has increased his jump shooting percentage over the past several seasons. he has also taken a higher proportion of jumpers. This is a very common pattern for NBA players as they get older.

eFG% on jumpers:
Iggy: .454 ... 82% of all shot attempts
Iggy10/11: .428 ... 78% of all shots
Iggy9/10: .410 ... 71% of all shots
Iggy8/9: .388 ... 64% of all shots

ET: .357 ... 81% of all shots
Jrue: .443 ... 79% of all shots
Lou: .444 ... 86% of all shots
Kobe: .440 ... 88% of all shots
Durant: .514 ... 81% of all shots
Lebron: .499 ... 59% of all shots
Wade: .420 ... 63% of all shots

anonymous reply to tk76 on Mar 20 at 16:14

Is this saying that Kobe shoots 88% of his shots away from the rim? only shooting 1 out of 10 at the rim is very surprising. Also surprised that Wade shooting 1 out of 3 at the rim is less efficient.

Yeah, the stats are from 82games.com and are a couple of weeks out of date. You can look back several years and see how Kobe has taken more jumpers as he has gotten older. IIRC, Lebron used to shoot nearly 40% of his shots inside.

Jumpers includes everything but "dunks, tips and close shots." Obviously 3pt shots improve your eFG%.

In comparison, a limitted inside player like De'Andre Jordan only takes 32% "jumpers." You can further details at hoopdata.com . Those 32% jumpers are basically all inside 10 feet.

For Kobe:

Kobe takes 23.7 shots a game (!)
5.1 threes
7.8 long 2's (16-23ft non 3's)
3.9 from 10-15 ft
3.2 from 3-9 ft
3.9 at the rim

So by those numbers it looks a bit better. 17% at the rim
30% overall with 10 feet
70% jumpers beyon 10 ft.

I am not sure the discrepancy between hoopdata and 82games. You can probably compare players withing one site. For example, according to Hoopdata, Iggy takes 25% of his shots at the rim (was 37% 5 years ago) but unlike Kobe, Iggy rarely shoots in the 3-9 foot range... which is a good thing.

anonymous reply to tk76 on Mar 20 at 17:47

I agree that those numbers look a bit better. Thanks. As you said 82games data is a couple weeks old, which might explain some of the discrepancy.

And 82games counts a 3-9 foot shot as a "jumper", which it sort of is.

anonymous reply to tk76 on Mar 20 at 18:13

The 82games numbers are still surprising to me, but now they do seem more believable, especially comparing it to the hoopsdata numbers. Thanks again.

anonymous reply to tk76 on Mar 20 at 18:00

Also, my math was a little too rough. .88 is more like 1 in 8.3, not 1 in 10, and .82 is more like 1 in 5.6. This seems possible for this season, especially if the 5.6 is more recent.

Regarding the Turner short hook in the 3rd:

It is a good decision if you are benching him for complaining to the refs instead of getting back into the game. That tuype of behavior needes to be completely squashed early in a players career or it becomes a issue in high pressure situations (think Sheed or Perkins.)

It was a bad decision if it was punishment for a TO. Although I am not opposed to what Collins used to do with Jrue when he got loose with the ball. he would sit him for 3 minutes to calm down and then send him right back in to prove himself. That would be fine for ET if Collins is up front on what he is doing.

It is a good decision if you are benching him for complaining to the refs instead of getting back into the game. That tuype of behavior needes to be completely squashed early in a players career or it becomes a issue in high pressure situations (think Sheed or Perkins.)

So should Iguodala be benched every game or should it jsut be accepted he complains a lot?

Doug Collins punishes for bad mistakes, be it Turner, or Jrue after he has 9 points in the first 8 minutes against the bulls and then sits for an unreasonable amount of time...maybe it's why Collins never lasts anywhere...taskmaster wears thin VERY quickly

bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Mar 20 at 13:25

I think it was a lot of things...I don't think he liked the pass (a low-percentage look that had a high-probability of being stopped - which it was)...I think that he has had it with Turner's beefing to the refs (this is the THIRD time in the past 5 games that he has had a problem...and not getting back on D - after your were the one who made a crappy pass in thr first place - is simply unacceptable)...but I also think it was a wake-up call to the team to GET THEIR FUCKING SHIT TOGETHER.

And it worked.

Hopefully, Turner got the memo, and shows up with something to prove tomorrow night.

Turner does have a game similar to Iguodala's but from another perspective.
Iggy can rebound, pass efficientelly, score some; better if someone set up him or in transition and D like an all NBA.
Turner can really rebound for a wing, pass with flare but too wild for Collins; take too many risks, D averagelly and can create his own score opportunities; if he could improve the accuracy on his Js a lot of open lanes would apear and he could become a real 20 point dependent scorer.
Both are do it all kind of players, one with more talent at D, other with more talent on O. Its not rocket sciency.

JH reply to JH on Mar 20 at 13:16

I was replying to Jkay..

Big Will on Mar 20 at 17:09

He will stand alongside other great names in Philly sports history (or more accurately sit alongside.) Names like Mashburn, Tartabull and Ruland.

johnrosz on Mar 20 at 19:40

Iguodala is a notorious complainer, for fucks sake he stopped defending Granger the other night and just stared at the ref after not getting what he thought was a blatant offensive foul, gave Granger a wide open jumper. I've lost count of the number of times Iggy "expects" a call and either travels or doesn't get back on transition D.

I think Doug just has a need to grind on one player, to make an example out of one guy to keep everyone else in line, ET is an easy target for a number of reasons.

But to say he deserved the hook because he complained, that's not fair, they all complain, even the teams best player.

If you're really trying to "set an example", Iguodala sits after he bitches at the refs, as to not set a poor example for the young guys.

You could very easily say that ET thinks the behavior is acceptable because he watches Iggy get away with it night in and night out.

You know who is a notorious complainer?

Every damn star in the league, including Allen Iverson

Who was here in Iguodalas formative years.

Complaining works in the NBA if you're a star player, it just does...Tim Duncan has never comitted a foul as far as I can tell from watching his shocked face EVERY TIME he's called for one

Tom Moore on Mar 20 at 19:54

Story: Sixers head into important stretch, starting with Knicks:


Sixers are 10-1 against the bottom six Eastern Conference clubs, having outscored those teams by an average of 18.9 points. Eight of those victories have been by 15 or more.

Let me state up front and for the record that I am a huge Evan Turner fan. that said how many of you guys out there think Jrue's ceiling is higher? What I mean is, I believe that on any given night Jrue IS capable of going out and getting 20+ points and at least 4-5 dimes. Turner, who I like a lot and hope succeeds just doesn't seem to have that capacity in his game. He has gone off in the past and I'm sure will do it again, it just seems like Jrue never plays to his full potential out there. Watching him stroke the long ball over the last few games plus penetrate and get in the paint so easily just seems to add more credibility to my theory.

your thoughts lads

bebopdeluxe reply to jswigga on Mar 20 at 20:36

I think that BOTH of their ceilings are high...and there is no reason, IMO, why they cannot reach them together...as long as DC and this team gives them more than 5 or 7 or 10 games to get there.

Just let them grow together.

I agree with you somewhat. IMO Jrue has ability but not the drive to fulfil it. Turner has the drive but not the ability to execute at that level.
Even when Jrue is shooting the ball well, driving to the hoop or even posting up, it feels like he doesn't have that aggressive mentality to dominate. Now sure how to express something so vague.
ET is difficult to project simply because it all depends on how well he is able to adjust to NBA defense, whether it's shooting the ball, getting to the line even more or getting shot off over athletic guys.
Holiday's ceiling is higher but that's meaningless to me after watching him this season.
To be honest I am just content to wait and see, it's all just conjecture at this point.

I don't think you can judge Jrue based on outward displays of aggression. The better he plays, the more calm and collected his demeanor appears. His only fault (as a scorer; his role with the best outlook in my opinion) is in his inability to draw contact and him building his game around that. I think he's physically limited right now, but being only 21 years old, he might still be able to develop his narrow upper body and become stronger in his drives. If he does that, then his touch is already spectacular, so he could become a potent scorer.

As far as Turner goes, I think everyone reacts to his peaks and valleys as he goes through them but lose sight of the big picture. He's got a great deal of ability but very little exposure. He just needs to get out there and get that experience and learn the league. His floater inside is a valuable weapon, his jumper is the key that will unlock the rest of his game and it's at least improving, and when it comes down to it, he mostly needs to just settle down and let the game come to him. He's forcing it, but give him time to put it all together.

If the Sixers are going to commit 100% to Jrue/Turner, Jrue really needs a big inside that can finish on offense. The offense in general needs a big who can play inside, but Jrue especially does. He gets lost inside because there's no help. Also, the roster needs a pure point and I really think Goran Dragic could replace Lou and do well. He's capable of playing off the ball as well, just seems like a good fit.

I really hate Dragic's game. Want no part of him at all.

I don't think there's any doubt Jrue's ceiling is higher, although whether he'll ultimately achieve that (primarily based on his inability to get to the line) I'm not sure.

tk76 reply to jswigga on Mar 21 at 9:51

To be completely honest I do not think either jrue or ET have that high of a ceiling. Probably ceilings about Iggy level or a bit lower since neither have an elite part of their arsenal as valuable as Iggys defense at the wing position. So they both could end up as above average starters who are fringe allstars. Neither will ever make a all NBA first or second team. Maybe ET can be higher ranked at his position because there are a whole lot more good PG s as compared to shooting guards.

bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Mar 21 at 10:27

I think that ET - if he continues to progress and mature as a player - can become an elite scorer in the Brandon Roy mode. I am not saying he WILL become that player, but I believe he has the tools to do it.

Brandon Roy scored almost all of his points on long jumpers- so I don't see the comparison as scorers.

Back when healthy Roy shot 37% from 3pts and 44% from 16-23 feet. Those represented 50% of his shots (8 shots a game.)

ET also takes 50% of his shots from 16 feet and out... but his percentages are 27% on 3's and 36% on long 2's. Unless he can hit those jumpers the way Roy did, the defense will just back off of him and dare him to shoot.

Roy was so effective because he both took a high proportion of his shots in the lane, and had the jumper to keep a defense honest.

Sorry, should read, Brandon Roy scored half his points on long jumpers...

Big article on Turner in ESPN magazine for anyone interested.


Just scanned the recent 'choke' issue digitally and see no articles about turner.

There is an article about 'teams' winning in the NBA which starts off talkinga bout Iguodala, how the 'iso clutchness' might be, um, well, kind of nonsensical, a tribute to Chipper Jones, a feature article on the phoenix coyotes (did you know that they didnt' have an owner? Did you care?)

I saw no articles that featured Evan Turner?

Another blowout win for the Knicks tonight....makes me really nervous for tomorrow.

Why? It was against the crappy Raptors on Knicks' homecourt. Their starters all played close to their normal minutes. Knicks will take their 8-14 road record into the Wells Fargo Center tomorrow to play a rested Sixers team. I'm not too worried. I just hope the sixers show up for four full quarters tomorrow.

the new coach adrenaline will wear off soon and they will get grounded. They are what they are, D'Antoni leaving will not change that overnight. Sixers D shows up, it's hard to see a loss.

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