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Round Five Goes To Rivers

Exile on Kenny Paine Street on May 22 at 8:31

Boston strangled them on defense in the third, the Sixers were incredibly sloppy with the ball, and Boston got a lot of easy hoops at the other end. The loss had more to do with Boston's defense and a wilting Sixers O than it did the refs or Collins' defensive matchups. Boston was getting it's hands on EVERYTHING.

That being said, you know Garnett is going to play the first 6 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters. To wait as long as Collins did to put Lavoy in in the 3rd was inexplicable. I guess he was planning on playing him the last 16 minutes of the game and wanted to preserve his fouls?

I said after game 1 I don't think you can lose a game like that and win a series against Boston. I think that is turning out to be true.

Of course you can make the case that the rest of the series would have gone differently if we had held on in game 1, but the bottom line is you want the opportunity to close out a series before you have to play a game 7 on the road, and that is so much less likely after failing to close out game 1.

Johnrosz on May 22 at 10:35

Why did they deal for Sam Young? I'm watching Spence get torched again and again, they could have just as easily picked up a big body that would have at least had a prayer against KG. Maybe it doesn't work out, but you at least get a big at the deadline, everyone knew they needed help, except Rod Thorn

The two things are not mutually exclusive, but the useful big men were mostly gone in the off season and none of them wanted to come to Philadelphia...

Buke reply to Johnrosz on May 22 at 13:19

Why indeed? The acquisition almost seems like an example of impulse shopping. Ya know, you want to buy something so you buy this shirt. Then, you don't like the way it looks when you try it on and it just sits in the closest before you donate it to Goodwill.

They made the acquisition right around the time when they moved Turner into the starting lineup. W/ Turner starting, they didn't have a backup SF on the bench, so Young was needed just from a numbers perspective. Young did fit a need. The issue isn't why did they get him, the issue is why didn't they do anything to address the need in the front court at any point since trading for Spencer Hawes.

The issue isn't why did they get him, the issue is why didn't they do anything to address the need in the front court at any point since trading for Spencer Hawes.

One could say that if they did such a thing that would be admitting that, yes, they did make a mistake in obtaining Spencer Hawes (let alone re-signing him even on a one year tender when no one wanted him)...GMs don't like to admit mistakes.

Hence - Step 1 of the off season is the firing of Rod Thorn

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 19:19

Thorn reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld where Kramer shows up to his job at Brant Leland with a briefcase full of ritz crackers

South Broad reply to Brian on May 22 at 23:01

"The issue isn't why did they get him, the issue is why didn't they do anything to address the need in the front court at any point since trading for Spencer Hawes."

This is where it gets really disappointing and somewhat sad - it appears in the front office's eyes they actually did address the front court - with the Vucevic pick in last years draft.

Spencer should play 10 minutes or less next game, and Turner no more than 25. Please, Jrue on Rondo too.

So Lou or Jodie should take Evan Turners minutes? And how bad will the defense be?

MCT reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 11:01

I thought his defense was bad last game. Jrue and Andre should get heavy minutes, and I dont think it would hurt to give Jodie an extra 5 or 6 minutes. I just think Turner is hurting the team in this series.

I don't really want Collins coming in saying "Meeks gets 20 minutes tonight." But if Turner can't hit a shot and he's getting torched by Rondo, I'd be fine w/ getting Meeks in to see if maybe he can hit a three or two.

Garnett said there's no way Philly fans can compare to Boston fans. Basically Boston fans have a impact Philly fans are mute. Game six I'm sure Philly fans will let him hear just how loud we can be when giving a reason to be. Sixers must play like there life depends on it. I think they will take it back to Boston.

Kevin Garnett again demonstrating that he's a clueless douche

The Six reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 22:21

stop caring so much.

Free Matt Cord reply to The Six on May 23 at 15:52

Stop caring about other people caring so much so much.

Charlie H reply to marcus on May 23 at 9:16

He's just bullshitting. He knows that Boston is a hockey town. I wonder what he thinks about the fact there are no brothers in that crowd. He must be jealous when he goes to Philly.

Coach Collins deserves credit for getting his team prepared. Its not easy to get such a young team to play such good defense and no turn the ball over. But his inability to stray from his script is really costing this team.

1) Just start Allen on Garnett and rest Allen when Garnett is out. Its really that simple. No need to worry about hurt feelings by Hawes/Brand.

2) Putting Lou/Jodie in that same time does not work. Does the team not have a statitician? Do Iggy/Jrue always have to come out of the game at the same time in the first half?

Buke reply to ojr107 on May 22 at 12:59

Collins' seemingly set substitution patterns really can be irritating. He always takes Turner out first, then puts him back in the game after both Jrue and Iggy are out so the team has the dreaded Lou, Meeks, Turner backcourt. I agree with you that Lavoy should be more or less in and out with Garnett rather than the way is put in and out now. He seemed to stop playing Vucevic due to late season defensive lapses, but how many defensive lapses has Hawes had since then? At least Vucevic could be a fresh and hungry big body for 10 minutes or so.

We probably have to concede, though, that Collins doesn't have a wealth of options at this point. The Sixers surely must have the weakest front court of any playoff team and the overall mix of players on this team has not been well designed. At least a couple of offseason player exchanges (through trades or free agency) are sorely needed.

How much do you think it's going to cost to keep Lavoy this summer?

Buke reply to CSTH on May 22 at 13:54

Maybe not so much. Since they have two large expiring contracts during the next two summers, they might be able to give him a backloaded deal (say three years at 1 M, 3 M, 4 M). Despite Allen's precocious performance in the playoffs, I doubt his agent's phone is ringing off the hook with lucrative offers this summer. If you throw in all the restricted and unrestricted free agents, the talent pool of power forwards is pretty deep this summer. Allen doesn't really have a large body of NBA work yet, and sometimes professional athletes do have some beginner's success that isn't sustained very long.

two things

1. Not sure your contract suggestion is legal, there are limits to how much a contract can raise year after year aren't there? You've got a 300% increase from year one to year two.

B. This whole Lavoy Allen thing just needs to stop...he's fungible, and he looks great in comparison to the awful hawes and the broken down Elton Brand. I still see him as a the PF version of Willie Green who the sixers gave too much to (twice even, factoring in the injury)

The off season is vital and should proceed carefully, and intelligently...over paying a guy who you don't have to (yes - each dollar counts in the NBA these days) after one good playoff series (or two if you want to count the bulls series, that's up to you) is really not a major concern.

Major Concerns are whether or not to waive Brand, trading Iguodala, and putting your self into position to capitalize upon chaos that is going to ensue (in my opinion) with at least two franchises, the Lakers, and the Magic, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Clipper Chaos, Denver disaster, and Dallas direness if Deron stays in New Jersey

Make a qualifying offer to Lavoy Allen and see what the market will bear. Stop jumping the market, Billy King is no longer the GM of the sixers. If he somehow is 'offended' that the sixers proceed cautiously then he's not worth the long term deal anyway. He's a guy who vanished for large parts of the season.

Rich reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 14:03

What does Lavoy Allen have in common with Willie Green?


Buke reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 14:24

You might be right about the limitations on annual increases within the same contract. Perhaps it would take two contracts: a one year and a two or three year. Anyway, six to eight million over three years doesn't seem like a huge investment for a guy who is probably a reliable backup and spot starter at power forward.

I don't think Billy King really overpaid Willy Green on an annual basis considering he has been a continuous rotation player for three different teams (all of which were good enough to make the playoffs during his tenure with them). I think his Sixers' contract was too long and he played too many minutes for the Sixers given his level of talent. But, his overabundance of playing time was probably more due to other contracts that limited the Sixers' personnel choices than it was to his own.

I'll believe that Brand is amnestied when I see it. Fans might be cavalier about the prospect of spending $18.5 million for absolutely nothing but I'm not so sure that owners share that enthusiasm. I don't see this team making major advancements for at least a year or two. The "backcourt of the future" (Holiday and Turner) don't seem to be ready for that anyway. I'd say that they have at least two years before they can approach the early prime stature of a Billups and Hamilton tandem.

I surely could be wrong but I don't see Iguodala getting traded for at least one more year and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were here until his contract expired. Maybe, just maybe they find a taker for Thad. I pray that Lou decides to "go for it" and opt out while he is fresh off a second place finish for sixth man of the year.

We disagree on the value and contract of Willie Green. In my mind it was a mistake when first agreed to, even more of one the fact that the sixers got a 'do over' and still offered him the same deal a year later instead of taking the gift from god they were given

Very disappointed. Trade Iguodala! Trade Turner! Amnesty Brand! Blow up the team! :(

I don't believe the question revolves around who guards Rondo. It's more how the Sixers guard Rondo. Far too many times the Sixers go over that simple wing pick and roll with Garnett and Rondo. That is suicide. They need to make Rondo a scorer. Rondo is the engine that runs the Celtics. He will put up numbers regardless of how well their offense is playing, because he controls everything they do. If the Sixers decide to try and help on his drives after going over on screens, last night happens.

Again, the Sixers have one decided advantage on defense. Iguodala is playing the Darrelle Revis role on an injured Paul Pierce. Of course Iguodala is also banged up, but let the Boston faithful attribute PP's struggles to his own injuries. This is a huge part of the team's defensive plan.

When defending the Rondo-Garnett wing pick and roll, the Sixers really need to go under. The big man should give the slightest hedge to prevent Rondo from turning the corner easily, but also stay attached to Garnett. All that hedge has to be is a little roadblock. Then the man who is guarding Rondo, be it Jrue or Turner, needs to cut the angle off in the paint. Their path should be almost like a safety in the NFL trying to run cross field to prevent a touchdown, a diagonal motion that gives up some ground.

Literally, this can be as far back as six feet from the rim. Rondo is shooting a robust 26 % from that distance. If he wants to throw up a floater, awesome. The Sixers can live with those results. Just as long as he doesn''t get something at the rim, and even then it can be a tough shot, that's a win for the Sixers' D. This is all about making him a scorer.

Playing off and under Rondo is the key to this game. Well, that coupled with the big men not overhelping on Rondo's drives. Seriously, Doug has to be in their ear telling them he really wants to drive and kick every time. That was an extremely disappointing defensive effort.

mixville on May 22 at 14:36

1st half: Sixers ran pick and rolls and were finding Brand on the wing and Allen at the basket after the second pass for Easy buckets!

2nd Half: NO Pick and Roll's, but back to the dribble hand off that sends Jrue to the corner where he is essentially tripple teamed by his man, Hawes man and the side line. Why do they keep running this play?

I don't think we know what Lavoy Allen is and if not he can be replaceable yet. For now, he is a very good late round pick with a chance to be a contributor on a very good team.

As far as what Lavoy does on the court, he does other things than Willie. His rebounding/length/post defense is something that contributes a lot more to winning basketball than Willie jacking up 20 footers and doing nothing else. I'm pretty hopeful that whatever Lavoy turns out to be, he's gonna be step up from Willie Green.

Yes he does other things than willie - he's also a power forward

And you're calling him very good based on a few games, how about all those games where he wasn't 'very good' or he failed to show up - or he just stood around and showed no energy...people are ready to give him a long term deal based on a few games, it's the eqvuialent of a guy shooting up the draft board cause he has a couple good games in the tournament after 2 years of being anonymous...

How is Lavoy Allen better than Chris Anderson (who has done it consistently over multiple seasons, criminal issues aside), Ronny Turiaf, Jordan Hill, or a whole host of other fungible guys who made a big impression during the playoffs...

The sixers aren't going to win the series, and Lavoy Allen looks good because you're comparing him to spencer hawes (who no one wants on the team period). If the sixers had spent some money in the off season and convinced a guy like Kenyon Martin to come to Philadelphia, would Lavoy Allen even be playing?

Don't over pay a guy you don't have to over pay - make him a tender offer and see what the market will bear - stop over paying guys (at any amount) you don't have to over pay

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 17:09

is there any real indication that they're going to have to overpay him or are we just speculating here

Well, people are throwing out what I find to be absurd contract suggestions, and that's what I'm responding to...there's no indication that the sixers have any interest in doing anything, be it trade Andre Iguodala, amnesty Elton Brand, or anything else, but it's all fodder for useless speculation...which is all it is...

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 17:26

I'm not really worried about them overpaying him, I said before he was the hot girl that's surrounded by fat chicks and I'm sticking to it. I do believe he is an actual NBA big man,which is why so many of the fans are blown away by him doing actual big man things... a nice rotation guy I think, and I'd absolutely like to keep him...because other than him I believe the Sixers have zero true bigs. It's not worth worrying about though I don't think.

It seems to be the most important things on peoples minds (off season related) the past week or so. It's fascinating...I agree with your 'fat chicke' analogy though said it differently. It's really not in the top 5 of things I think matter in the off season :)

Rich reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 18:08

Reading comprehension, please. I called him "very good" for where they picked him, just like Isaiah Thomas has been "very good" for where the Kings picked him. Look at the guys drafted around him.

Also, I'm not comparing him to Spencer Hawes. He's been good flat-out period in this series, and don't tell me what I'm doing when there's no basis. That's something you tell other people all of the time, and yet you somehow see no problem doing it.

He does things like rebound, play good post defense that could make him a contributor on a good team. His size is definitely an asset. He's different from all of those guys because he is a rookie, who has room to grow a little.

I do agree to not overpay him, but really that's not a tough statement to make because after all, it's overpaying. All of those guys that you mentioned make 4 million dollars a year, and considering this team should be blown up, it wouldn't be a horrible risk to give him 3 mil for two years and see what he has. After all, you surely don't know what Lavoy Allen is going to not be good either. He has the talent.

He's been good flat-out period in this series,

5 games - 5 games and people are ready to give him a long term deal.

As for your reading comprehension comment, I ignored your inability to comprehend a metaphor earlier, but whatever.

He's fungible, he looks better because of who else is on the roster, he only got in because Doug Collins had no other choice (PS - what the HELL does it say about #8 that he can't get his ass off the bench? Is he hurt or something)

He's not worth a 3 year contract extensions after 5 damn games (3 of which the sixers lost, in one of which 'stars' like bass and stiemsma bitchslapped the sixers)

Like I said, Lavoy Allen isn't even in the top 5 things of 'import' for the sixers in the off season as far as I'm concerned...just learn what fungible means and we'll be ok

Rich reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 18:30

Oh, I understood what the word meant the first time. You are pretty tough to deal with, turning the argument into a pissing match about grammar and words when you are the one turning "very good pick" into "very good."

I said two years on extending him, but whatever. Lavoy had a good stretch earlier in the year and a bad one, but he's a rookie. And rookies on teams trying to win games often have a very short leash.

He did play pretty well earlier in the year if you remember and then Collins went away from him. It's not as if he was allowed to play every game and work through his mistakes, which were often laziness truth be told.

I don't think anyone is saying give him 5 years, 17 million dollars (Willie's contract) and if they are, than that's insane. If they choose to rebuild, and they still should even though this series isn't close to over, a two year deal for 2.5-3 million dollars per could make some sense.

Thank you

Buke reply to GoSixers on May 22 at 18:37

I'm just curious. If the Sixers don't resign Hawes, what do you think he will bring on the open market? Considering that Brendan Haywood will make 8,350,000 next year and Andris Biedrins will make 9 million, I wouldn't be surprised if Hawes' contract starts of somewhere between 5.5 and 8 million. People always seem to overpay for bigs (particularly younger ones) but the market is what it is.

If Hawes can get 6.5 million next year (not so unlikely), I don't think a contract averaging 2 to 3 million a year for Lavoy Allen is unreasonable at all. Nikola Peckovic was given about 4.5 million a year by David Hahn without testing the market and he now probably wishes he would have gone longer.

And, by the way, I think most of us probably know what "fungible" means.

If Hawes gets 5 million dollars on the open market - some GM should be fired...the haywood deal is a disaster that hamstrings the Mavs and would have prevented them from doing their 'texas double' if dwight howard had the balls to just say 'i want to leave orlando'.

There was no market for Hawes last year, I doubt there will be one this year...guys like Hawes could be the first fatalities of the new CBA - yeah you're tall - but you suck - and we aren't over paying height any more if height sucks.

Not sure where he fits in the Lavoy comparison...neither of them are major pieces of a championship team.

I believe the sixers are very far from contending from a title (yes, even with this playoff run) and am more on the side of tearing it down than tinkering with the roster...

I think Lou will get more on the open market (god willing) than Hawes does...here's hoping he opts out

Tom Moore on May 22 at 17:17

Sixers-Celtics notes (with Thad Young video): Brand: Philly fans will show Garnett how 'fair-weathered' they are:


i live in phila, am a sixers fan, hate celtics, etc.
but didn't rollins say the same thing a couple of years ago?

if fair-weather means - attend games and are enthusiastic only when the team is doing well - there is some truth to what kg said.

are there nba fanbases more rabid than phila? sure

Jay, I gotta agree. Sixer fans have been far and few between since AI left. If I'm in Philly and I say I'm a big Sixers fan, I get raised eyebrows. Here in New York, people just laugh at me, except for older guys that remember Doc and Moses.

Still though, I despise KG. He's the toughest guy that's never gotten into a fight. What a chump. He must be mad embarrassed, getting stifled by a rookie.

Buke reply to joeykey on May 22 at 18:52

I visited Philly a couple of years ago and told some guys in a bar that I was a Sixers fan. They asked me if I was crazy after I said that.

Buke reply to jaypiddler on May 22 at 18:50

I don't care much for KG, but I don't think his fan contrast was so bad either. You expect a player to stick up for his home fans. And you are right. Except for a relatively small legion of loyal followers, the region's fans more or less had become indifferent about the Sixers in the post-AI days. But, that's probably the status of NBA basketball in most markets around the country. The NBA team is a distant third (and maybe fourth in some places) in the hearts of the metro's fans.

Tom Moore on May 22 at 21:30

...so he's just not going to use Battie or Sam at all outside of garbage time this series?? At least to knock KG down a few times...?

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