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On Jrue's Development

there's plenty of optimism regarding jrue - the main one being he's only 21. 21 is still a kid and he has so much to learn. i hope to god the sixers get a good big man this offseason because that would really help him out. they also need a guy who can actually shoot the ball and doesn't have to dominate it to be effective. as he gets older there is no doubt in my mind jrue will develop into a top 10 pg, probably top 5. his defense is already there, its his offense that needs the work. and to me he's shown enough to earn a long extension and time to grow into that player.

You summed up Jrue's season nicely, Brian. I agree that getting an extension for him is one of the keys this offseason, but unfortunately i don't see it happening. Jrue is going to ask for a lot more money than what Thad got. I'd even sign him for 10 million per year, but i guess he will ask for more and will rather play the season out than sign a contract for less than that.

There is one thing that bothers me with Jrue though. His shooting percentages from distance show that he is a pretty good shooter, but i don't necessarily agree with that assessment. Jrue has a fairly slow release and as a result doesn't really stretch the floor all that much. We all know that he is at his best when he is methodical in his decisions, but a shooter who spaces the floor needs to have a rapid reaction. It's not just the release actually but his entire decision making process before shooting that takes too long to do it right. As a PG, and a guy who has the ball in his hands, the downside of his slow release is relatively mitigated, but as a guy who creates spacing off the ball that is a problem. The playoffs were a perfect example of this problem. Both the Bulls and the Celtics were packing the lane completely and decided they can run out fast enough to shooters to contest threes. And for the most part they were able to contest Jrue's and Iguodala's threes or even force them not to take them.

Overall i really like Jrue's game, but there are still a few aspects that need improving i.e. drawing contact and faster precise decision making. He needs to work on them in the offseason.

By release here i don't mean just the release but the entire process when taking the shot.

Your assessment of Jrue's performance this year - pluses and minuses - Is spot on. However, I hold out hope for his upside at point guard taking a dramatic turn up next year. It is not easy for a young point guard to play for Doug Collins. Less so in a year like this one where there was literally no practice time.

This season was grueling, exhausting for fans. Nonetheless, a big factor in he Sixers offensive struggles was the necessity to persevere with the same basic offensive scheme without the time for in season enhancements or adjustment. To downplay the importance of this factor in the development of young players is tantamount to buying into Iverson's perspective on practice.

Look for a big jump from all the young players on this team with he opportunity to have a real preseason and to log significant practice time as a team.

Jrue should cotinue to improve, but I do wonder if he'll ever be a "pure PG." I think he will be able to run a team well and set up players and hopefully contyrol the pace,. but I always thinks he will be a "scoring PG" and never be a natural PG in the mold of a Rubio or Nash. But not every team needs that type of creator, especially if he continues to be paired wityh other creators like Iggy or ET.

spencer for hire on Jun 5 at 7:22

I believe a C.Billups type career is a possibility for Jrue. At 21 he has already shown the ability to knock down big shots in big games. He will be one of the top defensive p.g.'s throughout his career and his personality can't be discounted.

He seems to keep an even keel on the floor and never gets too emotional. Hawes leaving should help his game also with Vuce and Lavoy less willing to get in his way up top.

If he gets surrounded by offensive upgrades he should be able to fill more of a p.g. role.

stonedeightytoo reply to spencer for hire on Jun 5 at 8:31

Billups sure seems to be a popular barometer for Sixers players around here; Evan, now Jrue.

Either Jrue's gonna be a level-headed floor general that knocks down big shots, or, Evan's gonna improve his jumper ala Chauncey after being in the league for 5 or 6 years. All bets are on the former, if either.

Started out reasonable then it turned into a love story - - "Little Iggy"?

Like a younger Iguodala without much talent around, Jrue's been given major minutes and the ball to apply skills and ambitious goofiness, alternatingly. He's got his strengths, but he's not a player to center a team around. Fans deserve more than sandbox basketball.

Rondo did what he wanted in critical gms 3, 5 & 7 - 23/14, 13/14 & 18/10... where was Jrue's "outstanding" D then?

Jennings (33/7), Parker (21/7), Calderon (12/13), Nelson (12/14, 16/13), D. Williams (34/11), Kidd (9/8/9 in 29 min), Rubio (22/5), Rose (23/9), Westbrook (22/4/13) and Paul (24/4) also licked their chops at facing Jrue, the "lockdown" defender. Even fat Ray Felton outplayed him in 1st gm of the season.

Recorded 2 playoff kisses to crowds but has a long way to go to record assist numbers that lead and complement a team. If he can't do it, I recommend finding a real point guard/maestro. Won't happen though as Collins has staked a bet on Holiday. 22 next week, his greatest asset, ever-waning.

Jrue has spirit a-plenty, but so did Speedy Claxton and Eric Money.

Rondo did what he wanted in critical gms 3, 5 & 7 - 23/14, 13/14 & 18/10... where was Jrue's "outstanding" D then?

Guarding Ray Allen.

The same (gimpy) Ray Allen who canned 2 3s to help seal the series? That's funny, I didn't see anybody around him.

Yeah, the Ray Allen that just killed them the entire series. That was all Jrue's fault.

So you just hate anyone who defends, I guess. At least you're consistent. Huge fan of Speights, hate Iguodala and Jrue.

You'd think cagey and capable basketball men like Collins, Curry and McKie would've have their "lockdown" guard defender (All-Continent?) locked on to the ignition of the opponent's offense, Rajon Rondo in the case of the Celtics. Wonder why they didn't sic' 'em on Rondo as the series turned leprechaun green & gold. Or did they?

For the most part, they kept him off the ball because he was the only one capable of sticking with the shooters off all the screens. It was an adjustment they made in the first round after Turner, Meeks and Lou all proved completely incapable of covering the off-the-ball guys.

To me, that's workin' backwards. Like playin' the wings on a break before stoppin' ball. Can't give top guards vision and time. So Jrue stops one shooter runnin' off a screen, Rondo goes to option 2 (or 3).

I think Jrue, while long and tenacious (at times) and generally a good defender, has trouble with rabbits and foxes directing offenses, the quick and the experienced. At this juncture, he can't stay with Rondo's combo of speed and guile.

You'd think cagey and capable basketball men like Collins, Curry and McKie would've have their "lockdown" guard defender (All-Continent?) locked on to the ignition of the opponent's offense, Rajon Rondo in the case of the Celtics. Wonder why they didn't sic' 'em on Rondo as the series turned leprechaun green & gold. Or did they to losing avail?

Sorry for duplication + 3. Didn't know original made the trip.

Huge fan of Speights? Not especially, though I wish him well. I didn't like to see him dismissed by his coach at season's outset, especially considering Sixers other bigs' limitations. Filled a hole for Grizz. I hope he keeps it goin' but he'll always watch the AS game.

Don't hate Jrue. Don't like his developing hot dog manner. Where's he getting his cues? "Take care of business first for at least a full season, please."

Iguodala? I abstain, your honor.

My guess is, based on your constant touting of D, that you possess the shooting touch of Al Bianchi and hack like Clyde Lovellette. :)

Heh. I don't really carry biases from my limited playing days. If I did, I'd hate everyone in the NBA. There aren't a lot of big men in point-guard bodies in the NBA, which was my unfortunate curse.

Clears that up. Hail to Calvin Murphy, Michael Adams, Charlie Criss, Spud Webb, Muggsy Bogues, Earl Boykins and Dana Barros!

Rich reply to Dollar Bill on Jun 5 at 13:24

There is so much I disagree with in this post. I'll start with the Boston stuff. First off, Turner was guarding Rondo for much of the series, so I have no idea how Jrue gets that blame. Seriously, how can you make an argument like that if you watched any of those games? They started having Jrue go off-ball and chase shooters after Game 1 in Chicago. Second, Rondo is a stats eater at times, meaning he can accumulate those numbers while leading his team to below average offense. There's a reason his team is 26th in the league in offense.

For example, you conveniently forgot to point out Rondo's 7 turnovers in Game 7, which is what allowed the Sixers to stay close in a game they couldn't throw the ball in the ocean. The Sixers' offense let them down in that series, not the D. Oh, and Jrue had 5 (FIVE!) steals in that game too, off the ball. I remember at least two of those that lead to dunks on the other end for the Sixers. So to recap, I don't think Rondo "did what he wanted" against Turner (and the Sixers as a whole, it was a team effort) in that game, and Jrue off the ball still made an impact on him. Rondo made a few critical jumpers at the end to salvage what was a poor game for him.

On another note, does anyone else think Rondo is wildly overrated? I get that he is capable of just breathtaking performances (Game 2 in Miami, Game 5 against us), but an offense catered to him still has a lot of trouble scoring.

Also, I don't understand how he doesn't get credit for Ray Allen. Is he supposed to shut him out? In the last five games, he gave up 3, 5, 5, 9, and 11 (on 11 shots mind you, that's good defense). I know Ray was hobbled and missed a lot of shots badly, but Jrue did what he was supposed to against him.

Stan reply to Rich on Jun 5 at 13:47

RE: Rondo
They've won two games and evened the series, and he has been the best player on the Celtics. I can't say he's overrated because he's working with less talent than what the Pacers have and the Celtics have been doing just as well if not better.

Rich reply to Stan on Jun 5 at 14:02

I think in this series he's been very good. Hard to argue against that. Against the Sixers though, aside from Game 3 and 5 where I thought his numbers were indicative of how well he played, he really wasn't so great. A good way for me to look at thing is how the Celtics as a team performed offensively. Usually then you know how good Rondo really was.

Like in Game 1 against Philly, he had a hefty triple double (13-12-17), but really if you watched that game, he wasn't that good. His saving grace (Like Game 7) was three huge jumpers down the stretch. Even with that, 13 points on 15 shots, 7 TO's with those assists, and the 12 boards which is impressive, nothing there I can argue with on that. It's just that he has the ball in his hand pretty much every second they play (unless they iso Pierce). Shouldn't he have usually great counting stats? It's something to think about.

His defense is overrated for sure, but I just can't get around how many of his assists are long jumpers that Garnett is still contested on, or transition threes where Ray Allen or Pierce is deadly. He is a very interesting player, capable of crazy brilliance, but is he brought to task when their offense isn't running well (Often)? I'm not sure he is.

Stan reply to Rich on Jun 5 at 15:54

I think he's rated appropriately. Not many people would rank him above CP3, Deron Williams, Tony Parker or Russell Westrbook.

However he is the best player on a team that's in the ECF and his team did tie the series with the defending EC champs. I just don't see Mike Conley, Jeremy Lin, Brandon Jennings, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Jose Calderon, or even Jrue Holiday having the same success he's had with the Celtics.

There are only 6 PGs I would take over Rondo right now- Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Russell Westrbook, Kyrie Irving, and Ricky Rubio.

Rich reply to Stan on Jun 5 at 17:21

I'd agree with this ranking and your assessment on the Celtics, though I'd pose this question.

Swap Jrue for Rondo. How much more success would the Sixers have had? I'm not sure all that much to be honest.

Fair point: Rondo vs. Jrue, not a head-to-head matchup per se, only at times.

Another fair point: "People are going to have good nights once in a while." But why do good PGs often shred Sixers? There's a litany this past season in review; my list wasn't exhaustive.

As for it's a point guard's league, try convincing Mario Chalmers, D.J. Augustin and Iman Shumpert of that. :)

Translation of your "stats eater" phrase:
"Rondo's number's support a view contrary to mine."

The D CERTAINLY let the Sixers down at TD Garden. With Pierce disqualified, it allowed Rondo to nail down series with 11 points in 2:46 (3:39 to :53) of closing time of Gm 7. A lot of flat-footed gapers in red uniforms on critical Allen and Rondo Js (and his scoring spree) - watch replays. A rising-to-the-challenge D would've found a way to disrupt/distract shooters, get the job done. A rising-to-the-challenge Rondo put the knife in and twisted. Yes, the 28 footer from the right side was unusual - but deadly.

nominative 'floor general' comparison (I understand Jrue is a developing "hybrid," a young Prius, if you will, as compared to Rondo's souped-up road-tested Mustang):

RR 288 min 89 assists 27 turnovers 15 steals
JH 261 min 39 assists 16 turnovers 12 steals
[50 more assists, 11 more turnovers, 3 more steals]

"The top one, please, if you'll be so kind."

Jrue's defense on "Tiny Tim" Allen - good, not earth shattering. Allen only had 47 in 4 ATL games (2 DNPs due to foot injury), 62 in 7 PHL gms; has 58 in 5 MIA gms. No medal of honor for hyperkinetic Jrue "suffocating" an injured old man - until money time.

I get it. You're a big fan of Jrue. Understandable. I'm not wowed by his game but see potential for growth. On the keeper scale, I rate him a 7 or 8 (out of 10). 7 for his play, 8 when you add team marketing considerations.

Rondo, "wildly overated" - that's wild.

The D CERTAINLY let the Sixers down at TD Garden. With Pierce disqualified, it allowed Rondo to nail down series with 11 points in 2:46 (3:39 to :53) of closing time of Gm 7.

The final four points were on intentional fouls, so I don't think you can really put any fault on the defense for that. He's the guy you want to foul on their team, so good for him. The other 7 points were on a layup (which I really don't recall, don't know who was on him), a foot-on-the-line long two from the wing as the shot clock expired where they doubled off Garnett, and then a 28-foot three pointer as the shot clock expired.

Making Rondo take long jumpers as the shot clock expires is exactly the result you want from your defense. A foot-on-the-line long two is pretty much the worst shot, and it was from their worst shooter on the floor. The 28-foot three is just ridiculous even for Ray Allen in his prime. The season basically came down to those two defensive possessions, and if I could play them over again, I'd pray for Boston to get the exact same shots. Rondo just hit them, there's nothing you can do about that.

I understand that train of thought. I happen to disagree with it. A winning defense prevents, it doesn't allow ("make", your term). Losers hope, winners act; passive, aggressive. It's all on the line. Somehow Boston players - minus their go-to leading scorer Paul Pierce - MUST be stopped by Sixers defense in that situation, NO EXCUSES, no matter the (estimated) degree of difficulty of shot(s) lined up. The young-legged, long-limbed, athletic "exterior defense" is puportedly a Sixers strength. It failed them when it mattered most, my view. Mental softness.

Yeah, that's unadulterated nonsense. By your logic, any possession that doesn't end in a turnover is a defensive failure.

That's not true

Defensive rebounds aren't turnovers ;)

Now THAT's pure nonsense. Congrats, creator.

I'm talkin' stoppage and ball possession, anyway, anyhow. And you know it.

Sixers banner at PCOM entrance - "Welcome to Geekville, where time stands still for opposing shooters."

Sigh, see this is what I was talking about.

Full ono dementia and yet fully functional

Keep ridin' Brian's sidecar, but beware of bumps and boo-boos, schlemiel-by-the-sea.

A defensive possession that ends with a tough shot, as the shot clock expires, taken by the worst shooter on the other team is a great defensive possession, regardless of the outcome. In the same way that a defensive possession that ends in an uncontested dunk attempt by a seven footer is a bad defensive possession, even if he misses the dunk. If you can't, or won't see that, I don't know what to tell you. You're wrong.

Rich reply to Dollar Bill on Jun 5 at 13:41

And now to the 2nd Portion. I hope you do realize it's possible to assemble a group of players like that for pretty much every point guard in the NBA. A longer list than Jrue has for most of them, too.

He actually played good defense against Deron Williams. Check here: http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/sixers-cough-up-their-first.php

Tony Parker got 21 and 7 on 17 shots. He averages 18 and 8. Plus Parker had 5 TO's. That's not horrible at all. He was average in that game for him. Actually, the game in Philly was the one you should have pointed out for him. Parker went off, and Jrue was probably half responsible for that. The pick and roll defense sucked that night if I remember correctly.

Like, Calderon had two other performances against the Sixers (Hint: They weren't as good). It's a point guard's league. People are going to have good nights once in awhile. Chris Paul took 20 shots to get those points and the Clips barely eeked that one out. Paul won that game with an absurd shot over Iguodala too.

I just hope you really don't see a good counting stats game
and see that as a signal go into another soliloquy about how "he's overrated." There's so many things hard about being a point guard on the defensive end in the NBA. Jrue did a pretty damn good job this year.

Good posts, Rich. Some fair points. Don't have time to reply now.

Buke reply to Dollar Bill on Jun 5 at 23:00

Yeah, interesting analysis:

Jrue wasn't so spectacular this year. But....wait....it wasn't his fault. The team wasn't good enough for him to flourish. It's the other guys' fault (except Iggy, of course).

I seem to remember Thad really flourishing with far less experience than he has now when Andre Miller was here. Now he doesn't get set up quite like he used to.

You would think that the author would at least attempt to make his personal feelings a little less transparent.

Rich reply to Buke on Jun 6 at 14:55

See, I don't like this passive aggressive stuff. It doesn't do anyone any good.

Even though I disagree with Dollar Bill on a lot of stuff, I don't have any bad personal feelings towards him. I just think he's wrong a lot. He's welcome to disagree, as he has.

Buke reply to Rich on Jun 6 at 22:34

Actually, I was giving an Amen to Dollar Bill. The passive aggressiveness was directed at the thoroughly predictable analysis of the main blogger.

I just don't see the "court vision" in him. I don't see him playing like a Steve Nash or a Rajan Rondo. He's not a prototypical PG, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Jrue's going to be a very good NBA guard, but he falls victim to his one greatest strength being defense.

It's difficult to measure statistically and elite NBA scorers CANNOT be "shut down" on a consistent basis. 1) They're too good and 2) the rules will always be altered to give them the advantage.

My random trade idea for the day:

Turner and Young to Utah for Al Jefferson.

Gives Utah a guard and opens minutes for Favors/Kanter. Gives Philly a PF/C who can score in the half court.

On which court can he defend?

CM reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 13:50

The extent of his defense is probably a little weakside shotblocking, but I'd imagine it would be (at minimum) a wash compared to what they got from Hawes this past season. If I recall correctly, team defense was a strength this past seaosn...no?

From my perspective, his contributions on the offensive end would be significant enough to work around his deficiencies on the defensive end. If you've got defenders around him, you can hide him.

CSTH reply to CM on Jun 5 at 13:03

Turner and Thad for Fat Jeff? I would throw up if they made that trade.

I'm still high on Jrue myself but the reason Doug Collins uses a guy like Igoudala at the point so much is because he is a much better passer then Jrue. And thats not to bad mouth Jrue Igoudala is probably the best passing 3 in the league next to Lebron James. Like it or not Doug is not they type of coach that is going to just let Jrue run wild with the ball. He is going to have to show Collins he is really ready to run the team the vast majority of the time. Its on Jrue to get better. He has to be more consistent and keep his head in the game for every minute he is on the court. Jrue is prone to short bursts of greatness followed by long stretches of just being another guy on the court. Hopefully that maturity will come with time. People forget just how young this kid still is.

To me, Jrue has to be put in a better situation (A pick and roll big with shooters around him) and he has to show he can run an offense in that scheme.

A slightly worse offensive Billups with better defense is certainly possible.

Stan reply to Rich on Jun 5 at 13:54

One thing that annoyed me with Billups were all of the 28 footers he would chuck up and make.

I don't see anyone as a sure keeper on the roster. I'm not sure why a player whose future is probably being somewhere between the 8th-18th best starter at his position would be a sure keeper. I'd listen to offers for anyone, and if some team offered me a young player who I thought was better than Jrue, I'd take him, assuming it made sense positionally.

Thanks for the earth-shattering opinion that you'd trade him for someone better.

Well give him credit, at least he didn't want to trade him for someone worse, small steps are better than no steps

Tray reply to Brian on Jun 5 at 17:19

Well, there are a lot of players who are better, so how much of a sure keeper can he be? This isn't like saying I'd trade Durant for someone better (LeBron, maybe Howard) if I were the Thunder, but in reality that's basically no one who could realistically be traded, so therefore Durant's a keeper. It's not even quite like saying I'd trade Ty Lawson for someone better if I were Denver, because compared to Jrue that's a relatively short list. It's more like saying I'd trade Jeff Teague for someone better.

Rich reply to Tray on Jun 5 at 17:28

Ty Lawson also played in a style of basketball suited to his skills. Not saying he hasn't been good, but I think Jrue would acquit himself a lot better with all of the shooters/freedom Lawson is given in Denver.

Oh can we start that debate again please :)

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 18:45

Hah, I don't want to start the debate. It's just that I feel Lawson has been given the ability to succeed on offense, which Jrue hasn't yet. If Jrue failed in a system tailored to his needs, then I'd feel more comfortable saying one is better than the other. You'd have to factor in defense too, which is why Jrue wouldn't even need to be Lawson's equal on offense.

Buke reply to Rich on Jun 7 at 10:17

I guess I don't really care about Jrue's needs. I care about the Sixers' needs. And right now I wish they had a real point guard in the Steve Nash, Andre Miller, Rickie Rubio mold (even a poorer man's version of one of them - I'd gladly take Calderon) who had a floor game leading to easier shots for the others instead of a point guard who has tunnel vision on the offensive end.

As long as you brought up different teams and systems being determinants of players' success, I'll offer the following rhetorical question: How many other teams besides the Sixers would have had Jrue as the fixture at starting point guard from his rookie year? He became the starting point guard by default as a rookie because the Lou Williams experiment failed (predictably). We had the Lou Williams experiment because management wouldn't resign one of the most consistently good point guards of the 21st century for very reasonable terms, so they assured us that the Sixers didn't need him.

I look at Jrue's entrenchment in the position as a living, breathing affirmation of management's decisions - much like the affirmation of Turner as a key player of the team's core going forward. At least I can understand why management drafted Turner. He was college player of the year, he's was the overwhelming consensus #2 pick, he was the most popular choice by far with the fans, and he said publicly that he most wanted to play for the Sixers.

wouldn't be much of a debate at this point, not that certain influential voices will ever admit errors in player evaluation

the dismissals of turner in vogue of late don't discourage me regarding his potential development, let's just say.

jrue has a game only a depressed fan could love. oooh...methodical!!

he's an outstanding defender. his passing and court vision leave much to be desired, as does his ability to dictate patterns of play. doesn't bode well for future top 10 pg status.

i think it more than likely that his future in the nba is as a combo guard. shows great promise as an off ball shooting threat and i think he should focus on that aspect on the offensive end rather than continuing to try to be something that he is not. this is an issue for jrue. he has it in his mind he is a point guard yet was shunted aside for darren collison in college and has been shunted aside at various times for andre igoudala, lou williams, and evan turner in the pros.

i understand that pg is where the bucks are but it can't be forced

i see him as a follower and not a leader on the court. this is what i observed attending every playoff home game. i simply offer the observation.

that he stepped up at various times and that his defense was often elite is not in doubt

sorry, first sentence refers to the nascent jrue holliday-ty lawson debate

Hmm passive aggressive bitterness without factual accuracy...that's awesome.

PS - no one here is influential - not even you

I'm not saying he's a great passer, but hasn't Jrue at least flashed some ability to make an amazing pass from time to time?

I see that court vision is a spot where he is criticized, but don't style of play, lack of offensive options have something to do with that?

Absoultely. Look, i like jrue. i think he will be a solid nba player. but i think his ceiling is higher if people aren't trying to stuff his square peg into the pg position's round hole

not even saying he can't be a decent point guard in the league, and certainly we haven't seen him attempt that in anything appraoching optimal conditions, as you point out. i could be totally wrong as always!just-from my own subjective evaluations-dont see him becoming a top tier nba point, i really don't, and i don't think it's simple twists of fate that have prevented him from holding the reins in the manner you describe.

i guess my main point on "jrue as pg" is that i truly don't see him becoming a top 10 nba pg with free rein to conduct the offense. i think that projecting that role onto him actually lowers his ceiling. but of course, i can't possibly know that, it's a gut feeling, and thus not worth a whole lot. will be interesting to see, though.

for instance, i feel that turner-for all the faults that many of you accurately point out-tended to be the one showing leadership and purpose. holliday
needs someone like that to feed off of. this was especially evident in games 3 and 4 against the bulls. evan set a standard with his attacking style and jrue scrambled to respond. that's how it felt to me.

ideally, you want your point guard to be able to set a tone. maybe that comes with age but it's my suspicion that ya got it or ya don't. gm 4 against boston was another notorious example of this. i think as far as interpersonal dynamics, turner is a fierier guy, a more natural competitor, and those are qualities that jrue recognizes and wants to emulate. the dynamic didn't reflect all that well on jrue in my eyes even when it led to superior performaces from him, as far as a "franchise building block" label.
i'm aware that many of you blanche at this type of analysis, and fair enough!but i respect your takes, respect mine please, and file away for future gloating when and if it's proved misguided. or whatever

Rich reply to mymanjrue on Jun 5 at 21:04

Yeah I don't understand why you are so defensive. I think others share your take.

The one thing I disagree is with PG's being a round hole. The idea of a "true" PG being the only way to go is long gone. Look at the differences between a guy like Rose and CP3. There's no one way to do it anymore if you do what your team needs.

Ha, you are right Rich. Sorry for the defensiveness. Think it comes because ET is my favorite player, I know the objective evidence in support of him vis a vis Jrue is thin to nonexistent, yet I still believe he has the higher ceiling. Just believe it, could detail the subjective reasoning if I wanted but know this opinion qualifies me as a target of ridicule on here these days.

You are absolutely right about the nature of the PG position. I just don't see Jrue as having the ability to dominate games in the way the top non traditional PGS do, either.

Basically I think his ideal place on a championship team is as complement to an elite offensive guard-not as the lead guard. In that role, I think he could be a crucial starter for a championship team and hopefully that's what we're trying to build here

BTW-CELTICS WTF????unreal!

writing a longer and more organized(hopefully more substantive and less defensive) take on my Jrue impressions, responding directly to Brian's post. Will show up at the bottom. would love to hear your take. At 24, my skills as a fan are still developing(lol) and I truly appreciate thoughtful responses that challenge my perceptions in a thoughful way

Compared to PGs who have been in the NBA for 4 years or less, where would Jrue rank?

1. Derrick Rose
2. Kyrie Irving
3. Ricky Rubio
4. John Wall
5. Ty Lawson
6. Jrue Holiday
7. Brandon Jennings

Wow - Westbrook has been in the league a while

And I'd put Jrue above John Wall

The Six reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:02



Just for comparisons sake

Let's not over sell john wall just because he was a #1 pick and gets flashy highlights - he's bad so far in the nba - his draft seems bad

What's the worst 1/2 in a draft in history?

Well - immediately i thought of olowakandi - and while Bibby had a good NBA career - i mean olowakandi was a super bust

the worst #1 in the modern era?

Charlie H reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 16:16

Kent Benson/Otis Birdsong ('77)?
John Lucas/Scott May ('76)?
Pervis Ellison/Danny Ferry ('89)?
Austin Carr/Sidney Wicks ('71)?

I'll go with '89. '98 is close. John Lucas was a great player but only had about 5 really good years. Birdsong was very good too but fizzled when he went to the Nets.

AJ reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:13

If the Wizards offered Wall for Jrue straight up, I would take it and so would you.

Actually, no I wouldn't, but the fact that you would means you get dazzled by flash and sizzle and ignore the things that matter, you'd probably have sex with a kardashian too?

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:35

I forgot about Westbrook and Rose. I keep thinking that they're SGs. I had to go back and add Rose to the list and push everyone down. But my mind blanked on Westbrook.

The Six on Jun 5 at 19:01

This team has issues to be sure. And there are no shortage of players on this team who warrant the many debates about skill sets and fits etc...we have all had on this site and others. Jrue absolutely should not be included in this group of "should-they-stay-or-go" type conversations. Jrue really can be a special player. I am thrilled with how well he has progressed so far. And at what...20/21 yrs old now?

On another note....I want that Wsh pick. What will it take?

yeah, without doubt i put him near the tope of the list of the current roster and i hope my comments didn;t denigrate that. but i do worry that if the kind of talk that some engage in were to take hold on a wider basis, the eventual result would be letdown and resentment when he isn't quite as advertised. ala igoudala. gotta be careful about overselling yourself on the one in hand

I suggested ANdre Iguodala and Nene (and the sixers keep the #15 as well) and was told that's not a good trade.

However, I think it's a fair trade for the wizards, the sixers take on some cash but obtain a valuable pick.

That's what I think it would take...

The Six reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:14

I actually think they really like Nene. I thought they were so tired of McGee's (fair/unfair) antics that they made certain to get a veteran in there. That being said, I would do that deal in a heart beat.

Drummond looks like a player who would be worth trading up for IMO.

Drummond concerns me

Guys who don't love basketball but are tall always concern me

The Six reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:24

I would take the chance.

Who would you take at 3?

I don'tk now enough about the draft - but the top 3 guys are davis MKG Beal right?

You take the guy who is available - when you're drafting at #3 you take the best player available - i still believe that

"So do I!" - Evan Turner's agent.

No draft is perfect, there's always mistakes, and favors may have had more upside but turner was more nba ready supposedly or maybe favors sucked in a work out (did the sixers work him out)

You still rate your draft board, and in the top of the draft you take the best player available...

Rich reply to Brian on Jun 5 at 21:21

Hey, David Falk has fallen low enough where you don't address him by name? Must be the Bobcats' fault.

Agents are bottom feeders - I think they might rank below the 'run of the mill' lawyer

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:33

Wait, what player along with the draft pick are getting in return for Iguodala? If it's Nene the trade doesn't make sense for Washington.

I disagree, I think it makes sense for Washington...

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 19:39

Why would they give up the #3 pick for a 28 year old SF to pair with their 21 year old PG, if they're going to give up their 29 year old all star center?

Because Nene is vastly over paid - Iguodala isn't - Iguodala expires earlier than Nene - and Iguodala might serve as a possible mentor for their horrible #1 picked point guard

Who knows why the wizards do anything -t he trade for nene was stupid in the first place in my opinion.

PS - when did Nene become an all star player? I'm not talking about the BS of being on an all star team - but actually playing at that caliber.

if he was an all star why were the nuggets so desperate to get rid of him only months after signing him for a basket case they might not even re-sign?

Or you know - take andray blatche off their hands :)

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 21:30

If you could trade Evan for Blatche and the #3 pick, would you do it?

Probably - I know brian might vomit at the idea, but you never know with blatche - but you seem to know with turner.

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 22:56

aren't you the proponent of the ET career arc? or have you abandoned that because of his lack of progress in year 2? I've still got to give the kid one more shot, because that third year is always a pretty big indicator of what you've got in a player...

That being said, hell yeah I'd take #3 and that turd Blatche, but that doesn't seem realistic

I am a proponent of the Evan Turner career arc - absolutely - but I don't think he progressed as much in his second year as others do, he didn't progress as much as I would have liked...the amount of praise Lavoy Allen gets for his playoff performance that much 'anti praise' (blame?) should be heaped on Turner - he was awful ' when it counted'. Now I'm not saying I buy into the Allen praise, as I don't - it was a few games - maybe just a good match up for him - who knows - but when you look at the entirety of his season - I don't think he's worth a long term contract or anything more than picking up his option for next season - when you look at the entirety of evan turners season - i see nothing that shows improvement enough to not give him up for the upside of the guys in this draft (how many of these guys would be drafted before turner based on turners last year in college and theirs if they all came out at the same time - i think the turner draft was just weak ass in the long run maybe - figures the sixers get lucky in a weak draft) - plus - as much as blatche is a turd - he's a very very talented turd - who if he miraculous gets his head on right he's the best big man the sixers have had in a long time...to me i'd take that risk AND #3 :)

SHorter answer

Yes I advocated the career arc of evan turner - but i don't see much of an arc in year 2 that's all :)

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 23:19

I know Washington is kinda cheap...rumor is that they brought back Whitman to save some money, but I don't know if they're cheap enough to give away a pick like that to unload a bad contract.

I'm not making excuses for Turner, but I think he will greatly benefit from an off season where he can work with the coaches. The part that scares me is that he's starting to look like a guy that doesn't take his off court stuff as seriously as I originally thought. I hope I'm wrong.

Supposedly he worked on his shooting in the off season with herb mcgee - and while it looked ok early on - it vanished - I don't know how much 'coaching' is going to help him - he had 3 years of college - he might be just what he is - a guy who was a really good college basketball player in a conference that isn't littered with great players...(hey, i went to a big 10 school, wisocnsin plays some ugly basketball but we keep ending up in the tourney) - I don't WANT Evan Turner to be what he is - I want to believe there's more to it - but I don't see it - and it's not his 'fault' - it's not Iguodala - it's just what he is,

Supposedly Washington has a new owner who turned around the capitals right? So why wouldn't he spend on the wizards.

The problem is - that if the wiz really want rid of Blatche - they could just waive via amnesty

BTW - depending on the deadline to waive guys via Amnesty (brand) - blatche and the pick for turner doesn't even work under the cap I don't think.

Hey look the heat lost

I still hate Kevin Garnett who claims he's a true professional - I'm not sure he knows the meaning of the word professional (or true)

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 5 at 23:25

Shorter answer
"My opinion are those of Brian's"

eddies' heady's reply to Stan on Jun 5 at 23:45

lol, ....and shouldn't go without saying that the same things he's now leaning to he ripped people to shreds for having those same exact feelings/opinions one year earlier.

and this from the guy who talks of being a trailblazer at times, oh the irony lol

I mean, this guy just said that Turner may just be "what he is". Brian's rather influential, or Turner's game sure is.

I think with anyone on the roster you have to ask if they could be a contributor in making the Sixers a top four contender. The only obvious player is Iguodala and his credentials speak for themselves. I would put Jrue and Thaddeus in the borderline category. Thad would be a definite if he didn't shrink in three consecutive playoffs series. For Jrue there's still some development needed before I lean one way or the other.

Physically, I'm curious to see of he adds on some upper body strength to maintain that spike in FTA's. I'd much rather he do that than work on his handling or deep shooting. I think his court vision is still 3-4 years away from being considered of 'true' point guard quality. To me it's a secondary skillset for him. Rich alluded to him showing flashes in another post and while I think he's a proficient passer, it has to come off of his scoring right now. I don't see him as the type who will board and dish if his shot isn't falling. Almost like he sees passing as part of a good offense but not two points in his back pocket. Guys like Nash and Deron equate passing to scoring.

To his benefit, Jrue is just learning this part of the game and is doing so at the highest level. That's a huge learning curve. His biggest accomplishment thus far is also his most recent, maintaining a 2.6:1 A/T ratio for the playoffs while taking on much more responsibility as a scorer. Well done.

Quick question- Iverson or Rose, who was better? I was arguing about this with my friend. I said Iverson because I'm a homer, but what's your unbiased opinion?

These are their comparisons from their 4th years. Rose has a slight advantage in every category.


Brian and I discussed this actually about the comparison, and you have to factor in injury I think...is Rose injury pprone or is this just a fluke? Rose plays at Iverson speed and mania - but Iverson would take hits and get back up - dude should have missed a lot more games in his career - Rose already missed half a season and will miss half of next season...

Honestly - did Iverson ever have a team as talented as Rose has right now? If those teams are healthy?

I don't pay enough attention to the bulls to know how Rose is dfensively but I know Iverson was a bit selfish defensively

eddies' heady's reply to Stan on Jun 5 at 22:38

Without looking at any numbers, Iverson hands down. It's not even close.

Tom Moore on Jun 5 at 21:32

Asked team president Rod Thorn if Sixers plan to re-sign restricted free agents Lavoy Allen and Jodie Meeks. "We are formulating our plans now," he replied via email Tuesday night.

Thorn, Collins, DiLeo and Witte headed to Chicago predraft camp Wednesday.

johnrosz on Jun 5 at 23:03

I don't even know what I think of Jrue anymore, but I'm not going to latch my hopes for the future of this franchise onto him like some have. I'd love for him to surprise me, believe me.

eddies' heady's on Jun 5 at 23:32

This is bothersome as a hoops fan. I cannot stress how much I despise the Celtics, and have for a long, long time but I looked on with much dismay and head-shaking when this super-team mess started. In particular, the Miami Heat and LeBron and Wade and Bosh's grand-standing that day at their introduction and LePip's too-early foreshadowing of "not 5, not 6, but ... titles". I shamefully and eerily find myself, just absolutely filthy feeling, wanting to see the C's send these guys shopping for redworms and crickets for their fishing hooks. I'm so torn watching this series that they can't manufacture or produce enough Dial or Zest or Dove bar soap. But for some weird reason as deep as that Celtic-hate is in my bones, I almost-giddily-like enjoy what is happening. heh

Yeah, I hate the Celtics with a passion, but I'm rooting for them in this series. Two reasons. Hate the Heat, and also because I think it changes the story of the Sixers season a little bit if the Celts beat Miami.

By the way, the Sixers were much, much better defensively against the Celts than the Heat have been. It's easy to spot.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 5 at 23:52

yeah, I agree on the defense, but to me the Heat just seem lazy for lack of a better term, I don't know. Like they casually get back at the most crucial times or something, but you're probably referring more to their half court D.

I could care less about what it does to the story of the Sixers season, shoot, it's over now, them winning vs the Heat or not doesn't change anything for me.

You're better than I am man, no way I could bring myself to admit that I'm "rooting" for the C's. I purposely avoided that term in my original comment. It's just the lesser of two evils for me. Never thought I'd get this much comedy from the damn Celtics unless we or anyone else were pasting their ass.

spencer for hire reply to Brian on Jun 5 at 23:53

I was routing for the celts for the same reasons but everytime they show Garnett I think I'm nuts for doing so.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Jun 5 at 23:53

As much as it helps shape the sales pitch for free agents "hey, we took the conference champs to a 7th game, were within a bucket throughout the 4th quarter..." I just don't see any of the big names wanting to come here, I don't know when or if that's ever going to change.

Who knows. Right now, the only guy who you even have the opportunity to sell on Philly is Deron Williams, and adding him alone as a free agent doesn't make you a contender. It makes you much better, but with the same disgusting weaknesses as a roster.

I guess the hope would be that you could sell Deron on coming to Philly, and then use him as the bait to get Dwight to force a move to Philly. None of that is going to happen, though. You can completely go for broke to get a superstar via trade, without an extension, but that's probably folly as well.

If you want a quick way to turn this team into a contender in the East, find a way to get Gasol without giving up Iguodala (which is impossible), then sign Deron Williams. Williams, Jrue, Iguodala, Allen/Thad, Gasol is a top two team in the East next year.

If you want to be realistic, though, they aren't going to be a contender next season, and I'm not sure they're going to be able to make the right kind of improvements to take the next step (make the ECF would be the next step) unless they lock up a decent amount of cap space signing guys who will probably wind up preventing them from making a big move to take the step after that one.

And since no one seemed to get what I was saying in the post above. I consider Jrue a keeper not because I'm convinced that he's a centerpiece, or the guy to build around, but because I believe it's pretty much a lock that his floor is being a starter on a contender, and a pretty big contributor. I don't think you can say the same about anyone else on this roster, outside of Iguodala, but Iguodala is older and more expensive.

I disagree that it changes the story of the sixers celtics story even if the celtics beat the heat...that will be more about the heat and the failed 'super duper' experiment and then about how the new CBA makes it even harder to build a team like that without getting lucky (the top four 'super' guys on the thunder are all drafted guys) in the draft. It'll be about a deep bench, and if the sixers come up it'll be in the vein of 'if derrick rose had stayed healthy we might never have gotten this wonderful match up'.

Let's say the second round was reversed, do the sixers push the heat to 7 games? Do the celtics beat the pacers who have big men?

It's a match up thing...whether or not the celtics win makes no difference to the sixers story in my opinion.

Though it was something I've been thinking about as a future article in another arena about who you prefer rooting for...the team that beat your team in the playoffs or anyone else so that the team that eliminated your team is then eliminated

spencer for hire on Jun 5 at 23:49

Rumor has it P.Riley is going after Koby and Dwight to put next to Lepippen next year to help him get a ring.

The Six on Jun 6 at 0:58

Chad Ford's latest mock has the Sixers drafting Terrence Ross. I'd be OK with that. Team needs a big but it would be nice to have a guy who can flat out shoot it too, and those appear to be the reports on Ross. Anyone know more about him?

Man oh man what i wouldn't give to have this haunt the Heat forever...and/or to do this to them after every single game they lose: http://t.co/RORyuKgk

Starting to look at potential Sixer picks. Interesting that Terrence Jones and Terrence Ross were high school teammates- winning a state championship. Ross seems like the guy who jumps out as the perfect fit next to Jrue + ET or Jrue + Iggy. Ross's strengths and weaknesses slot in well with the team. He's my current front-runner of the guys who have a good likelyhood of being on the board.

Not as interested in Moultrie, as he is an underachiever defensively. But maybe lavoy is good enough where they could be a strong tandem? Or is that giving Lavoy too much of a future? And Moultrie would finally give them an offensive weapon who can is a versatikle scorer/finisher who also rebounds.

spencer for hire reply to tk76 on Jun 6 at 7:14

Tk, I like either of the Terrences' but T.Jones would be my choice. Watch how quick he is and he has a 7' wingspan. He would be great on the traps the sixers do defensively.

And offensively he has Bosh like versatility. But they may take Moultrie because he is a Collins type pick. Another offensive guy he will try to turn into a defender.

He doesn't block shots and doesn't have a post game yet but can play away from the basket like a small forward at times, a perfect fit.

But he is long and does rebound.

Looking at the draft i am not so sure going after a high lottery pick is actually a good idea. This is one of the strongest draft in years, but that is mostly due to its great depth. There is only one great prospect in it and he is going to the Hornets. There is a huge drop off after that, and while i agree that there will be some stars coming out of this draft i am not sold that they will necessarily be the ones drafted after Davis. The difference between guys ranked 2nd and 20th is not that great. An average draft produces around 10-12 starter worthy players and this year i think you can find those even late in the first round. Of course there will be plenty of busts and average players, but i have a feeling this will be one of those rare drafts that you might find a star later on, because the talent level of the players is relatively evenly packed.

What i am trying to say is waiting for a guy to slip to 15 may not be such a bad idea. The Sixers can use their trade assets elsewhere.

As it stands right now there are a few intriguing guys that might fall to 15 like Henson, Sullinger, Drummond and Jones who have the talent to become stars but have some major red flags. Guys ranked lower like Ross, Moultrie and Q.Miller are also intriguing prospects.

sfw reply to Xsago on Jun 6 at 9:16

Completely agree. Although wouldn't be a bad idea to snag another top 5-20 pick if affordable. Coming away with a power forward and wing from the top twenty would be nice going forward. You could grab one of the defensive minded centers in round 2.

mchezo on Jun 6 at 9:33

Hey. Just wondering why Jrue's lack of development this year is being attributed to a lack of practice time, while a lack of practice time is not being factored into the analysis of turner's season? I like Jrue, but I don't see the top point guard promise others seem to see. Solid player yes, borderline star maybe. But that's all I see.

Mostly because Turner has sucked since setting foot on the floor in Orlando for summer league. If you want to keep coming up with excuses for why he's been so bad, that's fine. I'm done with it.

mchezo reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 13:03

I'm not making excuses for turner, I calling into question the excuses you continuously make for Jrue.

You're comparing apples and oranges and wanting them to taste the same

Could it be that Jrues lack of development has to do with game situations and playing with other players whereas Evan Turners lack of development is the fact that his basketball acumen just isn't that good...working on his shot, that's on him, in the off season, hell the lock out gave him MORE time to work on his shot...a point guard can't really work on court vision as well with out his team mates with him


Warriors reported looking to move a few things for an upgrade at sf and also interested still in iguodala

Fortunately can't do Ellis for iguodala any more

This comment about Royce White is so aggravating - it shows that mental illness is still seen as a massive defect...which while the NBA is all pro in their 'hey don't be mean to gay folk' advertisements - they still have a long way to go in other areas.

If the following quote is true about Royce White, then ana intelligent GM won't let him slip to 30, because they know anxiety orders are easily dealt with.

"White, on talent alone, is a top-10 pick. But he's slipping a bit as teams worry that his anxiety disorder could disrupt his development. At pick No. 30, he's worth the risk."

Are they all easily dealt with?

An anxiety disorder that still allows you to go to college, play basketball at a high level, and if you read the article, sure he has a fear of flying, but he flys (hell, since 9/11 i haven't flown and when i think about it these days it scares the hell out of me)

He's not bipolar, he's not DID, he's not shcizophrenic or MPD. Hell he's not even a paranoid narcissist (which my mother is) and even they can be really successful at their chosen career. It's not PTSD. The only 'symptom' i've heard espoused publiicly is that he's afraid to fly (but he faces that anyone) - I know tons of people afraid to fly, plans crash

I was born with ADHD, I also suffer from depression, these are not things that make me 'less than' in my ability to do what I do (hell my ADHD gives me assets in my opinion), but our society and our nation still looks at mental illness like it's the black plague, like you're defective for some reason if your brain chemistry is off.

Look at a guy like Rasheed Wallace, how good would his career have been with a little ritalin. You don't think Ron Artest maybe could benefit from some mood stabilizing drugs.

People are assessing White purely on hearsay. If he's already slipped to 30 - and has top 10 talent - there's no way every team has talked to him yet -

Just more evidence (to me) how bassackwards the NBA draft process is.

If dudes really a top 10 talent, and willing to do the work to deal with his anxiety, hell the sixers should draft him, he'll be a steal.

In your ever day life you probably deal with multiple people who suffer from a mental illness of some sort, and most of the time unless they tell you (or they are refusing to deal with it) you probably don't know (I'm talking about people you work with, not the crazy homeless folk who accost you on the street)

does an anxiety disorder affect coachability and/or in-game situations? = legitimate question.
my layman's opinion is no or negligible effect.
But once he is interviewed, one would expect most of that speculation will be squashed.

The fact that most teams haven't interviewed him but he has 'top 10 talent' that is projected to the end of the first round is the troubling issue...if ford is accurate then you've got people making conclusions and assumptions with out facts, on almost every NBA

Watch the spurs get him and him turn out brilliantly

The problem with answering those questions is anxiety disorder is far too general of a term. It could go from barely noticeable to completely debilitating, and everywhere in between. White's problem is he's open about it. I would bet there are a lot of people in the NBA with un-diagnosed anxiety disorders, to varying degrees.

And you hit the nail on the head right there - it's a problem that he's open about having an issue - but someone who is open about it is willing work on it.

Two guys who totally stand out to me are Artest who obviousliy has issues he ignores and I always felt rasheed wallace (from my experience living with it and medication just not working) had a severe case of ADHD - and that a little medication would have made his game infinitely better (and gotten those techs under control)

mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 1:22

I agree with you and Derek-but to be fair, Artest doesn't exactly ignore his issues...I mean, this is a guy who thanked his therapist in the post game interview after the biggest game of his life(gm 7 of the 2010 finals)...from reading about him a little, and about the Malice at the Palace in particular-he and the teams he's been on seem to have been aware of and proactive in seeking to deal with his mental health issues for the better part of his career. He was working with atherapist at the time of the Palace incident-he got on the scorers table and laid down like he did in an effort to follow through on advice of therapist etc

There's talk and then there's action
Sure ron thanked his therapist
then he changed his name to metta world peace
have you read some of the things he says (check out his 'weatherman' work the other night)

Ron Artest is still not a mentally healthy individual with his issues under control

mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 1:27

by the way, from the cbssports winners and losers of the combine articles, winnes section:
3) Royce White - The NBA teams have asked me about White's mental makeup all season. He's had some issues, but White is engaging and takes accountability for his past actions. No one, according to several NBA guys, was more impressive in the interview process than the Iowa State point forward.

Does anyone know what the deadline for the amnesty is?

Think it's 1 week after FA opens.

And that's before the draft?

No, after the draft. Draft is end of June, then FA opens on July 1st. Then I guess July 8th is amnesty date. Check the QA, though.

I did an online search, saw nothing stating when it was. Coon has a 'chat' on Hoopsworld today so I submitted a question about that, maybe he'll answer.

I wonder how early can you amnesty a player too. Can you amnesty a player before the draft.

The smoke and tea leaves seem to indicate a very volatile draft night this year, be nice if the sixers were in a position to do a few things...lest we forget that the celtics basically built their title team with draft trades

As i understand it the amnesty deadline is collocated with the first week of free agency to allow teams to go after free agents first. They can have an agreement with a free agent and then amnesty a guy, but at the same time they cannot dragout their decision too long.

It shouldn't be a problem if it concerns draft day trades though as the actual trade can be done later and both teams will pick for each other during the draft. It's a bit more difficult to pull of but doable.

Yes, I'm well aware that teams can agree 'in principle' before they can actually do something, however, I don't trust those deals, and they have too much time to fall apart...and then you're screwed...i prefer things clean.

If it's not doable, it's not doable, shame though, that cap space would be very useful on draft night probably...other teams will probably just make deals with the teams that have actual cap space instead of depending on something happening a couple weeks down the road

I'm warming up to Terrence Ross a lot. Ford called him a "starting caliber sniper." Seems like an ideal player for this team.

Hopefully it takes more than Chad Ford to persuade you on a player...as Chad Ford is a notorious tool with very little insight.

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 12:59

Saw him play a few times and he took a few bad/tough shots. Talent and athleticism are there. Put him in a better system and I think he has a chance, but again, what do I know?

more than me probably - my picks for who the sixers draft are often motivated by other things :) I've only ever had 3 real strong feelings, one was right, two were dreadfully wrong...(Iguodala, Hughes, Speights)

I think there seems to be a 'gaggle' of equal guys around where the sixers draft, no one is clear cut above the rest, depending on who you believe, and when you have that situation, I say you go with need, I'd rather see the sixers take a PF (not Henson from UNC) center type project than anything else - and a PF/C type who is stronger defensively than offensively if i had my druthers...

The Six reply to Rich on Jun 6 at 12:55

Same here. He looks like he could be a fit. Watching his video, he actually has nice shooting form. And he appears to have some upside as a plus defender as well.

He would be a terrific fit between Jrue and either Iguodala or Turner but his very low free throw rate is worrisome a little bit. I am not sure the Sixers can aford another guy who is not getting to the free throw line. I wouldn't be disappointed if they drafted him though.

eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Jun 6 at 22:19

If you went back, do you like him more/less than you did Jordan Hamilton? Of course, realizing they're two totally different players and taking into account Hamilton's defense was nothing to sneeze at as we both agreed at the time last year.

Another Candidate for the worst 1/2 combo in the modern NBA era draftwise

Kwame Brown/Tyson Chandler

i still think Olowakandi and Bibby would be worse because, well, Olowkandis career was even worse than Kwames

Chad Ford on the sixers

The need an athletic four and they need a shooting guard who can really stroke it. Terrence Ross, Austin Rivers, Arnett Moultrie look like the three best candidates right now ...

so they will probably take terrence jones just to make me made

My understanding is that Jones would be gone by 15?

draft express(who i trust more then anyone on espn) has the sixers taking jones

Has anyone ever done the research to see who is most reliable when it comes to projections? It's my perception that depending on the draft, most sites aren't really good past 6 or so

Plus, I think smart GM's, scouts, use guys like DX and Ford to float stuff out there :) It's easy enough to do while still seeming sincere (nba draft net just makes stuff up in my opinion - changing constantly to foster more traffic: )

I will find it pretty funny if the Sixers take Terrence Ross at #15 to replace Turner as the starting SG.

No see - here's how it works

They'd draft Ross to be the starting shooting guard and then they'd move Iguodala for scraps cause Evan Turner will replace him as the starting SF

i know hes really never shown the ability to do this but if you made evan the 6th man by not re-signing lou, id be interested to see if it would work

Well, the one thing lou brings off the bench, Turner hasn't shown an ability to do, so you're losing something in that transition, you're adding defense off the bench though

i know its a small sample but in the playoffs turner tried to attack rim more often(or so it seemed) i wonder if that carries over to next year

Well that would fit into the 'turner can be a star' argument as the number of good games hes had to justify such a thing is the definiton of small sample size :)

Seriously though, much like I said up above where matchups in the playoffs benefit some players/teams in ways that doesn't really make them championship contenders, maybe Turner just had favorable matchups...if he can do it for even 41 games next season (in a row) i'll think about it :)

That doesn't mean I want lou on the team - I want lou gone - I just don't think evan turner is a lou replacement...Lou is really the only guy on the team who draws fouls

Trying to attack and doing it successfully are two different things though. I liked that he was aggressive, but at the end of the day all he had to show for it was that huge bucket at the end of the Game 2.

My biggest problem with Turner attacking in the playoffs is that once he got by his first man, he was shooting the ball. There were passes to be made, some tough ones even, but they would have been better than him shooting the ball and getting blocked.

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 13:47

Maybe it's because he was with Lou who dominated the ball. Turner could come off the bench in the same role as Harden or Ginobili. It could work, Turner would dominate the weaker defenders and be the focal point of the offense when he's in.

But if lou isn't here that doesn't suddenly make turner good at shooting, or drawing fouls.

stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 15:02

It would be extremely difficult to find a guy that can replace Lou's quickness and ability to draw fouls. But Turner brings other qualities like versatility at 3 positions, defense, rebounding and etc.

I also think that Turner would have been much better on the bench without Lou. Turner would dominate the ball against a weaker defender and play the point forward position which is the ideal scenario for his strength.

mchezo reply to Stan on Jun 6 at 18:31

Do you really see turner embracing a role off the bench? He seems to be the type of player that needs to start to be effective at this point in his career. If you are going to replace lou, it would be a better bet to replace him with someone who isn't currently in a sixers uniform.

Can you really say he was effective as a starter?

They always say it's not who starts but who ends the game, if his ego is so fragile coming off the bench is an issue - that's a bigger problem

mchezo reply to Stan on Jun 6 at 19:31

Do you really see turner embracing a role off the bench? He seems to be the type of player that needs to start to be effective at this point in his career. If you are going to replace lou, it would be a better bet to replace him with someone who isn't currently in a sixers uniform.

My guess is it would work something like this:

Once every 15 games or so, Turner would have an "on" game, and score 20 points. Everyone would scream about how this team needs to be built around him. In the other 14 games, he'd shoot something like 4/12 for 8 points and no one would say anything about it. And he'd grab a bunch of rebounds and probably come close to the yearly limit for technical fouls.

I think this team needs a big that can finish off a guard's penetration much much more than it needs a shooter. Even if we have a lights out three point shooter, other teams bigs are still going to be free to help off our bigs, whether they play close to the basket or stand there waiting to take a long two. Its not like We had awful three point shooting out there this year, Holiday/Iggy/Williams/Meeks all shot the 3 well.

Rich reply to ojr107 on Jun 6 at 15:06

I agree wholeheartedly. It's just that if we can get the big who will finish off penetration in this draft or not. If I there is a plus three point shooter who is also at least passable starting defender at the 2 or 3, I think you fill one hole there and look for the big through free agency/trades or next year's draft.

I agree as well, but the problem is there are very few bigs that can use the guards penetration, can defend both the pick and roll and the post and can rebound well. It's not a given that they will be able to acquire such a player. A shooter/defender at the two is more likely to be acquired.

eddies' heady's reply to Xsago on Jun 6 at 22:28

Agree also with all of the above from others. I sort of like him, but want to like him more, but do you see Tyler Zeller being pretty close to doing all the things you described? I kind of do.

Don't really look and haven't really looked at mocks, so not in tune with where he may be projected (i'd guess higher than 15th though?)

A quick hypothetical question regarding a very realistic scenario.

Assuming the Sixers can't get Deron Williams, trade for a star/superstar this offseason or get a supertalented young big (e.g. Favors, Kanter, Valanciunas) what would you guys like them to do?

Some possibilities (not limited to them) include:
- trading Iguodala for a lottery pick
- trading Turner for a veteran
- signing/trading for above average bigs
- trade Iguodala for a solid big with a major red flag (like Al Jefersson)
- trade everyone for draft picks
- keep the same roster and make small improvements through the draft
- etc...

I would really like to hear your opinion on this matter, because i am reading so many different completely unrealistic ideas/suggestions out there...

Stan reply to Xsago on Jun 6 at 16:11

- trading Iguodala for a lottery pick

- trading Turner for a veteran
Depends on the veteran. Josh Smith, yes. Kevin Martin, No.

- signing/trading for above average Bigs

Chris Kaman- no.
JaVale McGee- yes.
Omer Asik- yes but not a long term deal.
Ersan Ilyasova- yes.
Jason Thompson- yes, but not at a high price

- trade Iguodala for a solid big with a major red flag (like Al Jefersson)
Fuck NO.

- trade everyone for draft picks
cept' Jrue, unless it's for Anthony Davis :)

- keep the same roster and make small improvements through the draft

The Six reply to Xsago on Jun 6 at 17:02

The sixers may try to outbid Denver/Indiana for McGee/Hibbert as they are RFAs. I don't think Hibbert is as much of a possibility since Indiana has enough cap flexibility, but McGee (if they like him) would seem to me a possible RFA target.

Otherwise I would trade Dre if it would get us WSH's or GSW's pick assuming we don't have to give up the #15 pick.

- trading Iguodala for a lottery pick: Not what I'd do. If they do it, they should really make several other moves to completely rebuild, which is fine. Don't think they're headed in this direction, though.

- trading Turner for a veteran: Veteran, rookie, 2nd-round pick. I'd trade him for whatever I could get in return right now.

- signing/trading for above average bigs: Depends on who we're talking about. Ryan Anderson and Ilyasova are two guys who I think would fit really well and move the needle, but I'm not sure how much they're going to command. I like Hibbert more than McGee, but he's also going to be more expensive and I don't think Indy will let him go.

- trade Iguodala for a solid big with a major red flag (like Al Jefersson): There's really no point in a move like this. You aren't rebuilding, you're just changing direction, and becoming a much worse team. I could see the benefit of getting Jefferson if you keep Iguodala, maybe. But not trading one for the other.

- trade everyone for draft picks: Not what I'd do, but a better option than trading AI9 for a guy like Jefferson.

- keep the same roster and make small improvements through the draft: I'm doubtful they're going to be making notable improvements in the draft, but that might just be my pessimistic side.

What I would do is make short-term moves to improve the team without long term implications, and I'd get rid of the guys who don't fit in those deals. So Turner, Thad, Lou in a sign-and-trade maybe. I'd package those guys together to get one or two guys on short contracts. Make the team marginally better this coming season, but open more doors w/ the money coming off the books.

Stan reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 17:28

"- trading Turner for a veteran: Veteran, rookie, 2nd-round pick. I'd trade him for whatever I could get in return right now. "

That is a very foolish statement. He's basically an expiring contract. There is no point in giving him up if it doesn't help the team. Turner isn't one of those cases in which trading him would be an addition by subtraction.

Until I really see it I'm doubtful they're going to make notable intelligent improvement at all

The Six reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 17:39

Brian - your criticism of Turner seems to have gone to another level. I can certainly understand you not liking parts of his game, and I can understand wanting to trade him if there is an opportunity to improve the team. He has not lived up to 2nd overall status (not even close unless you look at how bad Wall has played). And your opinions on this team in general are well thought out, which is why I enjoy this site.

But trading Turner for "whatever I could get in return right now" seems irrational to me. I can't imagine him not having more value around the NBA that this. Its almost like you have a personal dislike for this kid now. Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

Marcus reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 17:50

That was a reckless statement trading turner for whatever u can get. Imo he would be better than any second round pick we could get. He has alot to work on but I'm not with the whole get rid of turner esp. While he's still on a rookie contract.

Also to all the people on here saying we should get deron Williams. I wouldn't want him he's such a diva I understand he's a top 5 pg in the league but I rather have jrue at this point.

Turner's rookie contract will cost more than the MLE next year, the following year it'll be almost $7M, the year after that, almost $9M. And there's no way this team wouldn't pick up the options for those extra years. I want them to assess the market and get the best package they can for him this summer.

The reason my tone has changed is because I'm thoroughly pissed. I'm pissed that they wasted the pick, I'm pissed that he sucks, I'm pissed that he and so many of his supporters think he should have an even bigger role to suck in, I'm pissed that I'm probably going to have to watch defenses completely collapse while he stands all alone in the corner waving his hand as if someone passing him the ball won't result in a weak shot fake followed by a 30% 20-footer with a hand in his face, I'm pissed that every time he gets the ball at the top of the floor he puts his head down, takes a few fancy dribbles and either (a) takes a 20-footer off the dribble that has no chance of falling or (b) drives right into four defenders, gets rejected and then complains about not getting a call.

It all pisses me off. I see Turner as an expensive, long term contract for a piece that will never fit. And I find it absurd that anyone who has watched Turner play at the NBA level would think that trading Iguodala to clear the way for him is a good idea.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 22:35

^ what he said x1,000,000!

To some, I jumped the gun his first year and stated he wasn't any better than the guy he replaced in Willie Green, and really he's not.

While I've always been respectful of other fans' takes/views on players on our favorite team, it totally boggles my mind how some (too many?) still see anything with this kid. I value and take interest in other opinions on here but just can't figure out what the allure is when it comes to him. I ask myself is it because he was the #2 pick? Or is it because it's mostly the younger generation of fans? Is it blind faith/hope? I seriously would like to ascertain what the draw is.

I agree that they are not headed towards complete rebuilding. And even if they did trade Iguodala for a pick unless they feel they can get a superstar with the pick it doesn't make much sense. Jrue+whatever is left(Thad,Lavoy...) and Collins as a coach would still be good enough to be close to the playoffs IMO. Rebuilding has sense if you are tanking at the same time so you can get a superstar through the draft. Otherwise, it's kinda pointless.

They will retool and try yo add to the current core. Brand is probably gone and they will likely use some combination of the cap space + #15 pick + maybe some sign and trades and either Iguodala or Turner to acquire two high end starter caliber players that fit with the remaining core. And i expect those two to be a scorer/shooter at SG and either a post up center or an athletic PF. It's not a sexy scenario at all but it is a scenario that will at least the team a direction.

What i don't want them to do is throwing big money on long term contracts for average or above average players. And i do consider guys like Anderson, Ilyasova and Humphries slightly above average. On short term contracts they are fine. But they will want long term security and signing them to big long term deals would be a disaster.

spencer for hire reply to Xsago on Jun 6 at 18:36

Did you mention building with capspace and draft picks? I hope they build this summer through the draft and give our young guys one more year to prove themselves, Thad and Evan especially.

I don't think Elton gets amnestied. Why trade a young piece and capspace this summer when capspace alone next year may get you one of the following; [Milsap, Jefferson, Josh Smith ,Harden or Ibaka].

I keep Iggy but get his future replacement in house. T.Ross could take Meeks or Lou's role right away with better defense from the gitgo but not offensively, probably.

It would seem to me a good way to clear capspace would be letting Lou go rather than Iggy. If they can replace Lou with a 2nd rounder or veteran minimum guy [D.West?] than that is probably 6 million capspace right there.

Deron Williams wants two things

A team that is closer to winning than rebuilding

A place his kids will enjoy living.

hey deron - Philadelphia has money to sign you by giving up elton brand, and the main line is a beautiful place to grow up with great public AND private schools all around.

Seriously...you lived in Utah for 5 damn years, and north jersey for gods sake...trust me, you'll love playing for philadlephia and your kids will love growing up on the main line

gladwynne is REAL nice

Yes - we'll find you a power forward
No we won't trade andre iguodala (if the sixers sign deron i would say keep him)
yes you can be a point guard
yes we'll market around you

And yes - our schools (the main lines) are better than dallases - PLUS no texans

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 21:48

1. Philadelphia has the 2nd highest city tax rate in the U.S

2. Finding a PF ain't easy

3. Dirk Nowtiski is the best PF in basketball, which is a step up from Boozer and Brook Lopez.

4. Dirk may be old but Deron is 28 and hasn't accomplished as much as Lebron, CP3, or Rondo

5. He's from Texas

6. Who cares about the school system when you can afford a fancy private school?

Fancy private schools in the suburbs of philadlephia are also some of the best in the country as well by the way.

The tax rate stuff is insignificant BS when Deron Williams nets as much as he'll net (and don't forget endorsement money)

As for Dirk being the best PF in the league - um did you watch this season? He's not even the best PF in his division

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 22:02

But Dirk is only 1 year removed from his MVP performance. Also Dallas is a big market team that's prone to making big moves. If they can find a taker for Marion's contract in 2013, Dallas has a shot at signing Dwight.

I wonder if Atlanta can afford to make a run at Deron by using the amnesty on Joe Johnson

If they can find a taker for Marions contract - they can make a play for dwight - IF dwight hits the market IF dwight wants to come to dallas - and if you think dwight is the kind of big man who can help you win an nba title (i don't think he is) - Dwight and Deron and scrubs won't get past the thunder.

However, the sixers can max out Deron this off season - and then if they choose - let iguodala expire, not over pay anyone else this off season and obtain dwight much easier in a much easier conference.

Personally - I'd rather live on the admiral wilson boulevard than texas

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 22:22

and if they strike out on Howard, Deron will be in a worse situation than he was in Utah.

If I were him, Philadelphia would be my 4th choice behind Dallas, Indiana, and Portland. Maybe you can put Boston ahead based on how they've been playing.

Wow - you really hate the sixers - PORTLAND?

Jesus - crappy team - crappy owner - front office chaos - constantly (Olshey won't make a difference) - and a city where it rains more than seattle

Yeah, portland is definitely a step up over Philadelphia...sorry - credibility goes bye bye

Indinapolis can't afford williams - and oh yeah - it's in freaking indiana - kids love growing up there

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 22:45

It's all about the big men, he needs one to be successful. No PF/C on the Sixers roster is as good as Aldridge, Hibbert, Garnett, or Dirk.

OH right - you'd put boston ahead of the sixers because of how they've been playing - and you'd ignore a bunch of things including rajon rondo that make ABSOLUTELY no sense for deron williams to even consider boston

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 23:01

yea, joining a team that made it the NBA Finals makes absolutely no sense.

He might like to go there, but I don't think Boston makes a whole lot of sense. Their only young asset is Rondo, who I suppose would have to be moved if they signed Williams. He'd be signing long term to play maybe one or two years w/ Garnett and Pierce at the end of their careers.

I still think he goes to Dallas, less to play with Dirk (who is also nearing the end of his career), more because it's his home and he's probably confident Cuban will find a way to surround him with a bunch of talent.

If the Sixers really want him, Harris would probably have to convince him that he's going to be the same kind of owner, and also make it clear that he'd be joining a more complete team with the prospect of adding another huge piece w/out completely gutting the roster to do it. If Williams goes to Dallas, that means Terry and Kidd are both gone to create the cap space, also probably means they'd have to amnesty Haywood. So you're left with Dirk, Marion and Beaubois. That's not a whole lot to compete in the West.

Anyway, it's highly unlikely, but if they can sign him, it would open a ton of doors, and they could keep whoever they want from the current team. I think the biggest stumbling block might be Collins. Williams had problems with Sloan's rigidity.

Stan reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 10:47

The Boston argument was a stretch. I was arguing just for the sake of arguing. However I still can't imagine Deron turning down the opportunity to play with Dirk in his hometown in order to play with the Sixers. It would be tough sell, something that I don't think this management will even attempt to do.

Hopefully they'll at least attempt it.

If Deron (like Dwight) cares about winning championships, the east is more 'open' long term in terms of making it to the finals. The heat look to be floundering, the bulls might get there one day if derrick rose can stay healthy, whereas the west has only had 3 teams represent them in the finals since 1998 (until this year) and the 'great' dirk was bitch slapped by the thunder, and while williams will help, i don't think he's enough to help an OLD team get better to beat the Thunder.

Dirk is much much closer to the end of his career than the beginning, and lets not forget he wasnt even in shape when the season started and his old body probably gets some extra work this summer due to the olympics, and who knows how many years he has left.

If Deron is serious about being in a place where he can make the finals, the sixers (to me) are a better option than the mavericks going forward.

Just going after Deron shows him the committment they have to being willing to spend...

I doubt it happens but I don't think the theory is as far fetched as you want it to be because you seem to think that Dallas (and Indianpolis) are better metropolitan areas to live in

Teams are establish 'prices' for picks according to some rumors

#10 you have to take ariza or okafor off new orleans hands (and of course give them cap space back)

#8 a top flight small forward to toronto

With a slew of league execs having converged on Chicago this week for the NBA's annual pre-draft camp, sources told ESPN.com that the Raptors have at least two known trade targets: Memphis swingman Rudy Gay and Philadelphia's Andre Iguodala.

would both teams do this?
if they wanted to sixers could then trade calderon to a different team

Sixers get: 8th pick, Calderon and davis

Raptors get: Igoudala

I like Jose Calderon

He's an expiring deal in the next season

Would you do it?


spencer for hire reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 22:15

I have a feeling they would offer Amir Johnson and L.Kleiza, two longer deals.

Okafor is a move I could see Thorn doing, maybe Thad and caproom.

From the same ESPN article

Veteran point guard Jose Calderon (who possesses an expiring contract in 2012-13) and young big man Ed Davis are among the players that the Raptors would conceivably be willing to put into a trade package. ESPN.com

Remember, the raptors feel like they're getting the '#2 pick' in the draft next year cause their euro is coming over...the hype on this guy is that he's going to be the rookie of the year...

spencer for hire reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 22:23

I think Iggy's 3pt. shooting this season makes him more attractive to teams like Toronto and Minnesota. Who woulda thought he and Derozan or he and Rubio could coexist.

If that is offered the sixers should pull the trigger.

spencer for hire reply to GoSixers on Jun 6 at 22:27

A nice compliment to Iggy on draft express; Gilchrist- best case [A.Iguadala] ; worst case [G.Wallace]

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jun 7 at 1:53

It really depends who slides to #8. If it is the right guy then you make the trade.

I can see the rational if someone like Drummond slips, or if they are sold on Sullinger. Then if they get Ross they could be a real rising team if they all pan out.

Ross/Thad (I think he eventually giving you more SF minutes against bigger teams)
PF/C: Sullinger or Drumond + Lavoy/Davis/Thad/Vuce

That could be a promising young group- especially when you figure they would be a max contract player in 2013.

Also you can make similar arguments regarding a great wing at #8... but it would be harder to get a quality big at #15. But you still could get a big through an uneven trade with their cap space in 2012 and 2013.

So that type of Iggy trade at least gives you a chance to infuse major talent on this team. the problem is that it is a highly risky chance.

spencer for hire reply to tk76 on Jun 7 at 7:57

What puzzles me is who Toronto's p.g. will be. A move for Iggy tells me they want to contend now. Is Nash gonna end up there also?

Reports are they will be targeting nash, getting Iguodala would help them sign him plus he'll be huge in canada. Kyle Lowry and/or Dragic might be available as well.

It's not Deron Williams, but there's some pretty solid point guard free agents

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 7 at 10:44

Interesting but a


lineup will still suck.

And yet that wouldn't be the sixers problem would it?

You're also missing a player in that list...their super duper new rookie who has everyone excited

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 7 at 10:49

Oh yeah, I forgot about him.

The reason the raptors would rather get a vet for #8 then make the pick (according to reports) is that they feel they're already getting the 'second best rookie' when this guy comes over. The hype for this guy from raptor fans has been season long, it's sustained them

Wow - wouldn't expect a spurs team to implode like this

so is their season now a failure too?

johnrosz on Jun 7 at 0:48

I think Ed Davis might actually develop into a nice rotation guy on a good team, but I don't know if that and #8 is all that enticing, I guess some around here like Calderon but think he's just an expiring to make the deal work salary wise and think he'd just be a nice backup PG, nothing spectacular.

Would honestly rather hold onto Dre if that's the best you can get in return, don't think they should have to move #15 to get that deal done either.

greg s on Jun 7 at 6:57

if the heat lose tonight they may make some drastic crazy moves. the celtics may be convinced to bring this old team back and rose is out for the year. Isn't next year the one year not to blow it up? Other than maybe miami (depending on how they react), who is good in the east? Shouldn't you try to make a run in a week conference while you can. Add a big man and see if you can beat the indianas and knicks of the world and just hope someone else beats miami for you. I know it won't change the future, but win what you can when you can.

As long as Doug Collins is the head coach, I can't see the Sixers trading Andre for a draft pick that's not in the top 5.

I think Golden State's 7th pick will bring in a nice player. One of the following players will be guaranteed to be there: Beal, Drummond, Barnes, or Sullinger. The player I'd be least interested in would be Sullinger, but he'll at least be a serviceable big- better than what we have now.

Would Golden State go for this twist: Andre and Turner for #7, #30/35, Wright, and Klay Thompson. I know Golden State is high on Thompson, Dre and Turner's perceived upside might be enough to pull that off. We'd be able to keep 15 and depending on who falls to us at 8, we could pick up a big or shooter at 15. Plus- I agree with the Royce White talk and the opinions on him- he has game. If we could take a flyer on a player who slips to 30 that would be a bonus.

draft combine is on ESPNU

im pretty sure some of the higher ranked guys arent doing every drill

So you guys think Boston closes it out tonight?

mopey reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 16:28

I doubt it. They have been horrible closing out series in the big three era. I really hate the heat, but I think an OKC vs Miami finals would be epic.

ojr107 reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 18:02

I think it all depends on Bosh. If he is good enough that the Heat can't leave him to challenge Wade/Lebron, and even Chalmers than I think the Heat win the next two games. If not,I think both Games are about 50/50.

What I really want to know, if we somehow sign D. Williams, do you think D. Williams/Jrue can play well together? I don't see why not, Jrue can hit the outside shot and defend starting two guards.

Rich reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 18:07

Well, they kinda sucked in the last Game 6 they played.

Stan reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 19:20

They can't. They just can't. My pride rests on this game and this series. For the past year, I've been telling my friends from Boston that KG, Allen, and Pierce are old and basically finished, I've been telling them that Rondo is vastly overrated.

First the Celtics took over the division, then they beat the Sixers in the playoffs, and now they might win the East, and eventually the championship.

This will be a huge blow to my pride and my credibility. If Boston wins tonight or this series, I might have to go hide underneath a rock.

You can't let me down Lebron, I've defended your character and your abilities for so long.

Jesse reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 19:42

Nah, I think the Heat wins this series. They are a vastly better team. Even when the Celtics win it doesn't look like they should have. I'm also kind of hoping that the Heat win so the finals will be more competitive (The Thunder will destroy the Celtics).

Bill Ingram: Rumor also has it the 76ers are considering using amnesty to unload Elton Brand's final year @ 18mill. Looking to be players in free agency. Twitter

In other news, the Hornets are considering drafting Anthony David and the Nets are considering offering Deron Williams a max contact

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 7 at 23:54

I consider this to be new/relevant. I thought they would keep EB, extend Lou and basically keep the same roster. Hopefully being a player in Free Agency means Deron Williams or Eric Gordon and not Jason Thompson or Kris Humphries.

This is more interesting than relevant - but did you know that starting actually can matter - in a way that seems ridiculous to me.

Sean Deveney: NBA confirms that #Spurs G D Green, a RFA this summer, DID meet ‘starter criteria’ by starting 38 gms. CBA says 41, but will be prorated. As 2nd rd pick, starter criteria for #Spurs Danny Green means he's eligible for same Q offer as the 21st pick from 08 draft. That’s $3.2m. Twitter

Though depending on the sixers off season and next season, does this become relevant for Lavoy Allen?

Win or lose

Lebron James has shown up

Wade hasn't

I wonder who gets the blame if the heat lose

Steve Kyler: Andre Drummond has met with Portland, Philadelphia, Charlotte and New Orleans... said meeting went great, Twitter

The Six reply to GoSixers on Jun 7 at 22:21

Uh....yes please.

Found it interesting because he projects long before 15 right? Just due dilligence or something planned?

Report from Stein indicates that while the hornets want someone to take ariza or okafor for #10 - that ain't all it takes

The Six reply to GoSixers on Jun 7 at 22:37

I don't think I have seen a mock where he falls below 5 or 6. I love the fact that they are kicking the tires on him. We have to take a chance on a big. We are not winning the lottery any tim soon nor do I want this team to suck bad enough to be in the running. I think his worst case scenario comparison on Draft Express is DeAndre Jordan. I'll take that.

If the big name prospects, he has probably the best chance of taking a nose dive. I like that the Sixers are doing their due diligence here, even if they don't trade up.

Man Stephen A Smith sucks so much - I don't want to see Prometheus any more - cross promotion is just so stupid

Celtics got two days worth of rest before Games 5 and 7 vs. Philadelphia and no back to backs. This series they only get one day of rest after each game. Conspiracy??????

This news that they talked to Drummond is interesting. Usually agents advise players not to talk to teams outside their draft range.

Drummund is an interesting guy. He is by far the biggest boom or bust player in the entire draft. He is the closest thing to Dwight Howard coming through the draft recently, but has very little in terms of actual basketball skills. I gotta admit i am not a huge fan of him as a pick, unless he drops to 15 of course (which is extremely unlikely), but i am a fan of the reasoning behind making such a pick. Drummund is probably the biggest project in the draft and he is at least 3-4 years away. There are two ways they can go with this:

- They want to completely rebuild.
- They think they can use a project big with upside to trade for a big name C like Howard.

Either way it's a positive sign, even though i am not a fan of Drummond.

spencer for hire on Jun 8 at 6:44

With D.Waiters supposedly having a promise from a team in the lottery, he cancelled all his workouts moving forward, that could mean a big or A.Rivers drops to us.

Unlike the Sharone Wright draft, where we had the 6th pick in a five player draft, we will be getting a solid player at #15.

I would rather add another pick in the teens than give up too much to get into the top ten.

Andre Drummond 6' 9.75" socks 6' 11.75" shoes and 7' 6.25" wing 9' 1.5" reach. FREAKY

MojoSoDope reply to sixerfan1220 on Jun 8 at 9:42

What shoe has a 2" sole? Is that commom or something? 2" increase?

ItAintEZ reply to MojoSoDope on Jun 8 at 9:56

Thick socks?

Them some cushioned sneaks. My U.S. Keds and P-F Flyers had 1/2" rubber soles, max - but their rugged canvas was unmatched.

Drummond's 'wing' and 'reach' measurements qualify him for the Pittsburgh Condors. Against the mediocre Pittsburgh Panthers at Storrs in March, he honed in on 7 pts, 5 rbs, 4 blks and 2 TOs. Forthwith, I submit my reservations. Will he ever attain the heights of Ervin Johnson?

ryano reply to sixerfan1220 on Jun 8 at 10:19

Free throw percetage = 29.5%. Freaky.

No motor + little skill = Too Risky

I'm all about potential, but this kid has all the makings of a bust.

The free throw shooting and the motor don't scare me as much as his defensive rebounding. Still, I'd prefer him to another tweener big who shoots a bunch of jumpers. I wouldn't be upset if they found a way to get him if it didn't involve trading Iguodala or Jrue. Everyone else is expendable, and even as a project, he fits better than any big on the roster right now.

ryano reply to Brian on Jun 8 at 10:45

I'd argue that his lack of defensive rebounding is a direct result of his lack of motor. Rebounding, especially defensive rebounding, is just effort. Block out, track the ball, go get the ball. No motor = no effort = poor rebounder.

Makes sense. I'd just welcome a big whose ceiling isn't a weakling who likes to shoot jumpers.

ryano reply to Brian on Jun 8 at 10:54

100% agree.

What would people think about Rivers at 15? I can't say I'm a fan of the kid, but he's got star potential. I read he measured 6'5" in shoes at the combine.

If he can really shoot, I'd be fine w/ that pick. That's pretty much my only concern if they take a wing at #15. I don't want any more SGs who can't shoot.

Report today That NO may part with the 10th pick if someone will take Okafur or Ariza for an expiring.

I would do 10/Okafur for Brand in a minute. You have to overpay Okafur for a year.


Or even more convincing for NOH, amnesty Brand and get Okafor with the cap space. the problem is this means no Deron Williams, which is a pipe dream anyway.

Don't like Okafor. Unfinished game and he finished college in 2004. Better days are gone. I guess in big man-hungry NBA with scant supply, he could serve a role. Doesn't excite though.

Stan reply to ojr107 on Jun 8 at 11:46

If you're willing to trade Iguodala for the #7 pick, then I think taking back Ariza for the #10 pick would be a bargain.

The Hornets are looking to clear cap space and add young assets with the #10 pick, they aren't going to trade #10 for Iguodala...the sixers don't have the ability to absorb a contract, which is what the Hornets want (and given the two players the hornets want people to take off their hands - i'd prefer okafor anyway)

Stan reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 12:08

I meant to say that if you trade Iguodala for the #7 pick, then you should also trade for Ariza and the #10 pick for whatever salary cap relief you can give them. If they amnesty Brand they can absorb his contract.

Whether they have the ability to afford Brand's salary along with Ariza's is another story.

ryano reply to Stan on Jun 8 at 12:13

I'm not sure if those moves would all work, but switching out Iguodala and Brand for Okafor, filler, #7 (and I bet you could also get GS's #35) and #10, plus having #15 is quite a rebuilding effort in one off season. With the draft being as deep as it is, this is the year to do it.

Jesse reply to ryano on Jun 8 at 12:18

Man, if we could get #7, #10, and keep #15 that would be incredible. Stop getting people's hopes up.

Stan reply to Jesse on Jun 8 at 12:21

Don't forget about the 2-2nd rounders, or 3-2nd rounders if you trade Turner like Brian suggested.

ryano reply to Jesse on Jun 8 at 12:27

Not sure it's that implausible. There are teams looking for deals and the Sixers have the pieces. If Collins is willing to take this project on and the team sees this as a hyper-quick rebuilding effort, I think it makes sense.

Drummond drops to 7.
Sullinger at 10.
Rivers at 15.
Sleeper at 35.

When watch Paul Pierce do you see any resemblance of Evan Turner? They're both fundamentally sound and they're both have pretty much the same athleticism. The major difference is that one guy has a consistent jumper and the other one doesn't.

I can't think of any player that has developed the ability to hit a jumper consistently, but to me that ability is what is going to desperate Turner from being a decent starter to a role player.

Turner doesn't fit in well with Andre and Jrue, but I would like to keep him as a guard-forward off the bench. He can be a poor man's James Harden.

If Sullinger measures out to 6'9'' what are your thoughts on him? If they could stay put or give up a 2nd rounder to move up slightly to get him. It would be kind of like replacing Brand with a younger Brand. Not as much upside as the other's out there but I think he'll be a good offensive player.

sfw reply to sfw on Jun 8 at 12:30

Athletically, he's very similar to Elton. I think he's a combination of Elton & Boozer. Not sure if that's what the sixers want but should be better than Elton is now in the half court but don't know about his defense. He will rebound the ball.

Sullinger was a top 5 pick before. not sure what happened that he could fall down to 15 now. seemed to have a solid tournament this year.

No one believes he can handle real NBA big men

And - the longer a guy stays in college - the more his weaknesses are exposed - the less nba ceiling he has - very few players (if any) improve their draft stock by staying in another year, be it sullinger, or barnes...

People getting blinded by athleticism. Sullinger is still a top 3 pick based on skills.

He is one of the guys i like this year. I am still evaluating everyone, but Sullinger looks like he could be one of the steals of the draft. They say he will struggle mightily on the defensive end, but he lead a team that was No.1 in defensive efficiency in college, if i am not mistaken.

Stan reply to Xsago on Jun 8 at 12:13

I don't like him. He keeps the ball to close to his body and he's 6'9. Not really athletic either. He's going to have a hard time adjusting to longer and more athletic players.

. Sullinger is still a top 3 pick based on skills.

According to you

But not according to anyone else

Jesse reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 12:20

His (lack of) athleticism is the one thing holding him back. So, yes, most scouts would rank him as a top pick based on skill.

And royce white is a top 10 talent based on skills but sliding to 30 because of perceived issues

Athleticism matters - if you have skill but no athleticism you aren't worth a top 3 pick in a deep draft.

I'm not really sure what 'no athleticism' means anyway - athleticism makes up skill - you can't have top 3 skill if you don't have athleticism - athleticism is leaping, is running, these are important things for an nba player - combinbing it with skill matters too - but if you have no athleticism you're not worth a top 3 pick

Jesse reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 12:30

No one is arguing with you that he should be a top 3 pick. Yes, athleticism is very important. Not really sure what you're arguing here, unless you are saying that jumping high is a skill, which it is not. Also, you use quotation marks when you are directly quoting someone. No one said "no athleticism."

I think I've had more than my fill of unathletic guys from Ohio State.

Probably a question for derek but I wonder about the history of unathletic guys from big 10 schools in general (Stiemsma went to wisconsin for instance) it's more of a bruiser type conference - defense - low scoring - tends to win - athletes don't head to the big 10 because they can't play the kind of game that accents their talents (maybe)?

Wonder if anyone has looked into this recently since a guy like matta took over

buke reply to GoSixers on Jun 9 at 16:41

I watch a fair number of Big Ten games. Yes, it's a lower scoring and bruising half court defensive conference (like the NCAA version of the Sixers/Bulls series) but it still produces some athletic basketball players (Deron Williams, Eric Gordon, Mike Conley, Devin Harris). The style might have something to do with making the conference less attractive to some talents, but I suspect geography also plays a part. Most of these schools are located in cold areas. Compared to Madison, Minneapolis, or Iowa City, Chapel Hill, NC is almost a paradise in the wintertime.

I spent four years in madison, i know all about the winters...I also saw a national football program arise in just four years, when in the first year the only win was against a moribound temple team, I'll take the midwest over north carolina every day

That's not how analysis works - you don't get to pick and choose the 4 winters that make your point - you look at the whole table (billions of years of "Madison, Wisconson" winter weather, with widely varying developments).

Jesse reply to Brian on Jun 8 at 12:53

We'll probably take Festus Ezeli - the Nikola Vucevic of the draft

The Six on Jun 8 at 12:04

I was watching the combine yesterday, and Royce White was asked what the inspiration was for his new beard. He said John Lennon of all people. You don't hear that often.

Checking out the measurements, Drummond is a huge dude.

Check out his measurements vs. Henson, for example.

Henson is 6'9" w/out shoes, weighs 216 pounds and his body fat is 8.6%

Drummond is 6'9.75" w/out shoes, weighs 279 pounds with only 7.5% body fat.

Drummond will be pushing people around from the minute he sets foot on the court in the NBA...if he wants to.

Stan reply to Brian on Jun 8 at 12:32

There's no question in my mind that he's a top 5 prospect in this draft. If he's available at pick 7, I wouldn't hesitate to trade Andre to acquire him. I really don't think drafting him his a possibility for the Sixers. I don't understand why he would work out for the 6ers.

ryano reply to Brian on Jun 8 at 12:41

...if he wants to.

Which is true for almost everyone ever - if they want to - the fact that people constantly expect 19 year old kids to be mature and focused all the time is fascinating - it's rare - it's more common that 19 year olds relax some time - when do you think andre drummond was actually CHALLENGED in a basketball game before he got to UCONN?

When it's easy for you - it's hard to stay up all the time - it gets boring

Look at Andrew Bynum, when he was drafted who the hell knew anything about him - couple years into his career kobe wanted rid of him because of his maturity - and now look at him - and he's still not fully mature (or engaged)

Are you saying cause sometimes Andrew Bynum seems to take games off you wouldn't give your left nut to have him ont he sixers?

Jesse reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 12:58

I agree that people read too much into maturity level or personality type with these young prospects. Unless you have a guy with major red flags like Cousins, you can count on whomever you draft to have an evolving character that will be shaped partly by the team locker room. The Sixers seem to have a very cohesive locker room environment that I wouldn't expect to exacerbate any character flaws.

1. Even with character issues, Cousins was a top 5 pick in his draft :)

I'm not really sure what the 'locker room' chemistry thing yo uare referring to has relevance - what matters is if the guy wants to work hard at being the best basketball player he can be...if not, he's sam dalembert, he'll have some natural ability, parlay that into money - possibly be good - but never be great

Jesse reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 18:43

Not so much locker room chemistry, more talking about a non-jailblazers like environment

Not sure how we got there - but ok

The Six on Jun 8 at 12:30

I am seeing a lot of talk about Mo Harkless climbing up the draft boards. He's only 19 yrs old. 6'8, 200 lbs. They say he played PF (?) at St. Johns. If the sixers already had some pieces in place, I think he would be a great pick at 15. Who knows, but he sure looks intriguing. Draft boards are tabbing him for the celtics with one of their two first rd picks.

Who is this Festus Ezeli kid?

Height w/o Shoes: 6' 9.75"
Wingspan: 7' 5.75"
Body Fat: 5.5%
Weight: 264 lbs

I wonder what his vert measurements are. It's odd that he's only projected to be a 2nd rounder.

WHy is it odd?

He's sam Dalembert except instead of playing baseketball when he was 13, Festus started playing basketball about a year ago.


Whoops - damn i misread that

But reading his wikipedia thing he sounds like a rawer sam dalembert :)

sfw reply to Stan on Jun 8 at 12:57

He's being compared to Nazi Mohammed and he is similar. His big issue are his hands(bad) but he's a defender and banger. The sixers could use him in rotation with the current centers(except the soon to be gone SH).

He's also only been playing the game for 8 years...

He's exactly the kind of guy drafted as a project, there's lots of tall guys who measure well who can't play basketball real well

You'd think sixers fans would know that vividly (Shaun Bradley anyone?)

sfw reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 13:11

Saw him twice. Last time he was battling til the end. Really, pushing his team in a losing effort. I was impressed. That was a good Vanderbilt team. Will have 3 players drafted before the 40th pick in this draft. Unfortunately, for the Sixers, he will probably be drafted at the very end of the first or early 2nd.

Stan reply to sfw on Jun 8 at 20:07

I actually like him more than Moultrie.

Stan reply to sfw on Jun 8 at 15:57

When did "Nazi" become short for "Nazr"? :)

Sullinger loses out in the measurements between he, Elton & Boozer.

Name Heightw/o Shoes Height w/shoes Weight Wingspan

Jared Sullinger 6'7.75" 6'9" 268 7' 1.25"
Elton Brand 6'8.25" 6'9.5" 260 7' 5.5"
Carlos Boozer 6'7.75" 6'9.5" 258 7' 2.25"

The Six on Jun 8 at 18:23

Urgh.......possible red flag on Drummond. When watching the combine, one of the commentators was interviewing him at some point and said Drummond compares himself to Kevin Durant.

One guy said he patterned his game after Allen Iverson...who cares?

The Six reply to GoSixers on Jun 8 at 18:35

I am trying to take into account his youth, but I want my center to want to be a center. He is never going to be Kevin Durant. I don't like that that is possibly where his mind is going into the NBA. Big deal? Maybe not. I would still trade up to get him.

Dudes 19 - he was asked a question he either was told what to say by his agent or picked the first player who came into his mind - i don't worry about what they say to the media when it's stuff like that

I worry about 1 on 1 interviews with coaches and GM's (of which we don't get to be privvy to o f course)

In the interview I saw he said Garnett, not Durant.

Hopefully he only means Garnetts game and not Garnetts uneducated punkassness

The Six reply to Brian on Jun 9 at 0:28

I hope so. I honestly like this kid. I hope the Sixers get him.

TwoSense reply to The Six on Jun 9 at 0:38

I hope not. I want not part of him. Fo' Fo' Fo' weeps, even in his sleep.

TwoSense reply to TwoSense on Jun 9 at 1:08

*want no

Ok - I'd watch an ESPN First Take of SVG versus Chris Broussard - would you?


Losers category

The guys that work all year long and watch games just don't get much out of the event. It's a series of drills that don't give NBA execs much in terms of a players' feel for the game and competitiveness.

What would you be willing to give up and take on for the #2 pick in the draft?