DFDepressed FanDepressed Fan All Sixers, all the time DFDepressed Fan Sixers Add Dorell Wright, L Williams to ATL STORYCOMMENTS (349) GoSixers on Jul 10 at 22:00 Reply +/- Not for nothing but your favorite 'source' was talking about the sixers interest in Wright leading up the draft - he was supposedly the key player if the sixers had traded for the warriors pick GoSixers on Jul 10 at 22:05 Reply +/- Question for your brian based on your last comment on the other thread Do you think they have a plan for two years from now - a target - an idea - or they just think 'Iguodala expires in two years, so we should make sure we have cap room then' and they haven't done the math on the Jrue and Turner extensions? Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 10 at 22:07 Reply +/- I kind of think they liked the results from this past season, so they're willing to give Collins some rope, see if he can do something with it, but they've still got whatever plans they had when they took over in their back pocket, so they aren't shutting that door. Again, just a guess. GoSixers on Jul 10 at 22:07 Reply +/- I think Andre Iguodalas agent moonlights on hoopsworld - dude loves him in this chat http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-chat-with-stephen-litel-7102012-2 ojr107 on Jul 10 at 22:08 Reply +/- In fairness to Lou's agent, 20 million guaranteed over 4 years has its advantages over 1 year at 5.5. Namely, Risk of injury and having an off(or role reduced) year next year. Brian reply to ojr107 on Jul 10 at 22:09 Reply +/- Yeah, you can look at it that way. But I think the risk was pretty minimal, and he probably could've gotten that 4/$20 after next season. My bet is he thought he wouldn't be taking a pay cut this season. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 10 at 22:12 Reply +/- With all the money thrown around and the monta ellis comparisons his agent could have made, I must admit I'm surprised that he got such a weak contract. of course, I would also say that I'm surprised Ferry would make a 4 year committment to a guy like Lou after getting rid of all the salary he did this off season. I mean I know salary minimums, but again, length, if you're rebuilding why are you giving Lou 4 years? Staan reply to GoSixers on Jul 10 at 23:46 Reply +/- I think it's a good deal for Ferry. Lou is a decent bench player and he doesn't limit their cap for next year yet. I think the Hawks only have around $17 million committed for next year (Horford and Lou) GoSixers reply to ojr107 on Jul 10 at 22:10 Reply +/- Well 0- injury I'll buy - but come on - doug collins loved Lou Williams - his role wasn't getting reduced Tom Moore on Jul 10 at 23:06 Reply +/- Story: Sixers add Dorell Wright, may still be eyeing power forward: http://www.phillyburbs.com/sports/sixers/sixers-acquire-wright-but-still-need-power-forward/article_3de83cc4-6c9d-52f5-80f0-56c6caa36675.html twitter: @tmoorepburbs Rod Thorn: "Probably not" likely Sixers will trade for power forward. Stan reply to Tom Moore on Jul 10 at 23:49 Reply +/- Isn't Ivan Johnson a free agent? :) speeke reply to Stan on Jul 13 at 21:47 Reply +/- I honestly had a great time watching him last year. One of my favorite random players in the league Rich on Jul 10 at 23:33 Reply +/- I don't like doing throwing out random trade ideas, but would Houston agree to a sign and trade of Courtney Lee for Turner? I'd probably do that. Boston, who it's been reported is all over Lee, can only offer 2 years/4 mil. Obviously the Sixers can do better than that if they are willing to shop Turner. Rodney Buford reply to Rich on Jul 10 at 23:47 Reply +/- Is Turner's value that low in NBA circles that Courtney Lee is a valid return? 12.6 PER, career 10 PPG This guy may be the most overrated player in "insider" circles. What has Lee ever done? (honest question) Brian reply to Rodney Buford on Jul 11 at 0:12 Reply +/- I'm not sure you want to use PER and PPG to devalue Lee in comparison to Turner. Turner's career PER = 11.7. Career PPG 8.2. Lee's an efficient scorer w/ a low usage rate and a very good three-point shooter. Turner is none of those things. In fact, defensive rebounding is the only thing that buoys Turner's PER. Rodney Buford reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 0:21 Reply +/- Not to devalue Lee as much as just note his career numbers are pretty league average. This is naturally not a glowing endorsement for Turner either, although Lee has been in the league a bit longer. Brian reply to Rodney Buford on Jul 11 at 0:35 Reply +/- Well, you're picking pretty meaningless numbers for a player w/ Lee's role. They really only have meaning accidentally for anyone. Lee's role isn't to take a ton of shots and score a ton of points. It's to hit open jumpers when he's set up, and defend. Turner doesn't have a role, besides missing a bunch of long twos. Charlie H reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 7:44 Reply +/- Lee is a UFA Brian on Jul 11 at 0:30 Reply +/- Max extension for Brook Lopez. So if they don't get Dwight, I guess they sport a starting five of: D. Williams J. Johnson G. Wallace K. Humphries? B. Lopez Wallace and Humphries can make up for Lopez's pussy rebounding. That's a tough squad. Probably the #3 seed if they can get everyone on the same page. Brian reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 0:31 Reply +/- Actually, #2. No Rose for CHI. Brian reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 0:32 Reply +/- Think the Sixers are still a playoff team, though. Nets jump in, my money is on ORL and/or ATL to drop out. Stan reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 0:37 Reply +/- Good for Brook, he should do well with Williams. Does this mean that they can't trade him till December? Brian reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 0:38 Reply +/- If it's a sign-and-trade, they have 3 days, then they can't move him 'til December. But I think it has to be identified as such for them to move him. They can't just pull a fast one, sign him and then trade him. Stan reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 0:46 Reply +/- I wonder if Hump will get a multi year deal from the Nets if the trade doesn't go through. He basically screwed over the Nets, it would be funny if the Nets reward him for that. das411 on Jul 11 at 0:43 Reply +/- so Brian, is this the trade that would make you shut down the blog? http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=887w29v Stan reply to das411 on Jul 11 at 0:48 Reply +/- take away Gasol add Cousins. Hawes, Cousins, and Turner That would put Brian on suicide watch. Tray on Jul 11 at 1:04 Reply +/- If Wright has the Meeks role (in the event Iguodala stays), what role does Harkless have, the Sam Young role? I think the endgame here is Iguodala going for a power forward. das411 on Jul 11 at 1:18 Reply +/- welp the twitterer in chief has spoken: >>> Adam Aron @SixersCEOAdam Your @sixers getting bigger, younger, more athletic, better shooting AND importantly shorter contracts giving great near term flexibility. Adam Aron @SixersCEOAdam Most importantly, we are smartly getting ourselves on a path which over time rebuilds us into a serious contending team. ...press conference from Thorn and DC sometime Weds GoSixers reply to das411 on Jul 11 at 10:11 Reply +/- God he's awful FDK215 reply to das411 on Jul 11 at 13:59 Reply +/- Those tweets make me think the offseason moves are basically done. If that's the case, who's our starting 4? Xsago on Jul 11 at 3:29 Reply +/- Finally, a good signing for the Sixers. I really like how Wright fits with the rest of the roster. Have been onto him for a while. A very good stand still three point shooter who is a decent defender. And all of that for essentially nothing. I think the writing is on the wall for Iguodala. He's gone sooner rather than later. I expect something along the lines of D.Williams/Ridnour/Webster + maybe a first round pick for him. Not a great deal, but at least there is some upside in it. I assume lottery time is in the Sixers near future. And i guess it's for the best. The only thing that i am worried about is the front court rotation (damn that Hawes contract). P.S. Lets hope Hawes does something stupid and the Sixers void the contract. Ricky - Sixers4guidos on Jul 11 at 4:51 Reply +/- really like this deal, a 1 year rental of Dorell Wright at 4 M in exchange for Edin freakin' Bavcic is a great move regardless. I also agree that Lou Williams should fire his agent, that contract is low for current NBA standards, good signing by Atlanta to bring a nice player and a Georgia guy back home. One thing is sure, all you guys who said Rod Thorn was just sitting on his arse should take that back, at least he's active (still not sure what is the bigger-long term plan, though, assuming they have one...). I also have a feeling Thorn is not done with the moves... Ig? tk76 on Jul 11 at 7:45 Reply +/- Brian, I am more in alignment with Jordan's take over at LB. The team has been consistent this offseason. They will take the next 1 to 2 seasons to see exactly what Jrue and ET can do with a somewhat competitive roster that fits their strengths. Then in 2 years they can either fully blow things up or go for winning depending on what happens these next 2 seasons. It is sort of like a 2 year delayed rebuild, but leaves open ability to change to a win now approach should their current core players develop into stars. Their only contract past 2 years is Thad (and eventually Jrue.) But those will be easily movable assets in 2 seasons if they choose. Brian reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 10:03 Reply +/- Eh. If they're really rebuilding, or in a modified rebuild, I'd think they'd be accumulating assets. So far, they've traded away a first and signed a bunch of short contracts. I could maybe buy this if they use Iguodala to obtain cheap/young assets. GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 10:14 Reply +/- Half assed rebulding is just that Half assed You must commit to it (ala Atlanta) and accept a few off years...what the sixers are trying to do is do both at once, and that never works, mediocrity is the outcome of what they're trying, as when you try to attract free agents it helps to have a pretty good player in house -a nd the sixers won't have that - and with Jrue and Turner extensions they won't have as much cap room as they think either...I don't think they have thought it through - then again since the elton brand thing was half assed, who is surprised? tk76 on Jul 11 at 7:50 Reply +/- I might be in the minority, but I want to commend the front office for showing restraint in this off season full of terrible deals Too many players who are merely decent getting deals in the 7 to 10 mil range for 4 years. Hobbes reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 9:31 Reply +/- I'm in the minority with you. A majority of teams in the league can't make bold moves that will get them to the next level (lack pieces, or money, or geographical prestige), and a minority of them are making bold moves simply to be bold (and, simultaneously, foolish). Scrub it along for a year or two until it's possible to sign one or two star players with money that most other teams won't have. Maybe even get a lottery pick in the process. Last year's team was better than half the league and lightyears behind the best in the league. That's, basically, being nowhere! And with Holiday already making noise about wanting a max contract when his time comes (which he doesnt' deserve), we were probably even worse off going into the summer than most realize. That we now have few serious committments next summer and fewer still the following summer is a fact. That we could have somehow done more with Brand's contract, or with Iggy, or found a cheaper center, or drafted better is speculation. Rodney Buford reply to Hobbes on Jul 11 at 10:07 Reply +/- While Jrue does not warrant a max, he can certainly ask, especially when Brook Lopez gets one. Hobbes reply to Rodney Buford on Jul 11 at 10:13 Reply +/- Very true. From this fan's perspective, it seems that simply being average and entering free agency in a bad summer allows players to leverage for top dollar nowadays. Brian reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 9:35 Reply +/- Yeah, I refuse to commend anyone who willingly signed Spencer Hawes to two contracts. Also, in regards to your post above, are they really going to be able to see what they have in Jrue and the wasted #2 pick w/ this front court? Dervin on Jul 11 at 9:24 Reply +/- If you want a conspiracy theory, look at it this way, Adam Aron bought the Sixers at their nadir: lockout, pathetic attendance, expensive roster, "synergistic" TV Contract (ie bad it's through 2029!!), fifth team in a five team town. So with the change in revenue via the new CBA, a bunch of bad contracts coming off the books and lawyers to crush the TV and stadium deal*, the Sixers become a franchise that would be easy to move or flip for a tidy profit. *IIRC Comcast owned the Sixers at the time the deals were made, therefore it shouldn't be too hard to prove a conflict of interest making the contracts null and void. GoSixers reply to Dervin on Jul 11 at 10:16 Reply +/- What's the fifth team in town? Dervin reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 10:48 Reply +/- The Soccer Team, Philadelphia Union. The Union's average home attendance is 18,400, whereas the Sixers is 17,500. and to make you feel worse, the lowest attended game for the Union was 17,200. In 2011, the Sixers average 14,500 per game, where the Union averaged 18,300. GoSixers reply to Dervin on Jul 11 at 10:53 Reply +/- What's the average ticket price for a Philadelphia Union ticket, I'm guessing it's much cheaper to get a ticket to a Union game than a sixer game...not to mention, percentage wise, I'm pretty sure the union could put a few more asses in the seat. While I will argue that Philadelphia is a bad NBA town, the sixers are more popular, overall, than the union... The LA Galaxy probably get more people per game than the Lakers - does that make them more popular? Dervin reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 12:49 Reply +/- Of course you would guess because you are too committed to your worldview. Prices for the Union are $20~96, where the Sixers are $10~1,400. the Union's stadium can hold 18,500, but their biggest game had 19K. MCT reply to Dervin on Jul 11 at 12:53 Reply +/- The Union also only play 10 to 15 home games in a season, correct? And the Sixers play 41, many of which are on weeknights that are harder to draw fans who worked all day prior. The Sixers TV ratings were way higher than the Union's and that means more than ticket sales these days. Go the fuck away, soccer troll. Your sport will never be as popular as the other 4 major sports, not even close. Keep on dreaming though. GoSixers reply to Dervin on Jul 11 at 12:55 Reply +/- So - upper range for union tickets is not even 10% the upper range for sixers tickets So - average ticket price - probably lower for union than sixers - please tell me how that's wrong? I was wrong about the galaxy comment though (I looked it up) but the MLS is slightly more relevant to the national consciousness than the NHL... How much MLS talk do you get on WIP or 97.5 - are they following the draft - talking about free agency in a frenzy? Dervin reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 14:34 Reply +/- Phily is a basketball town, but not an NBA town. I remember begging my dad to take me to watch the 1983 team with 2-for-1 coupons printed in the newspaper. We are all on the mailing lists how many special offers did they use to get us in the stands? The Eagles only play 8 home games, does that mean the Sixers are more popular than the Eagles. You two children are aware the Union is 3 years old. And their record is 5-9. If the sixers were playing .350 ball would they even crack 10K per home game? And when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, they are outdrawing the Sixers. MCT reply to Dervin on Jul 11 at 14:59 Reply +/- Apparently you are unaware of the millions of dollars that TV revenue brings in. And as I stated earlier, the Sixers pretty much destroyed the Union in local TV ratings this past season. That is more important than ticket sales. Also, the Sixers made alot more money per game at the gate because (as GoSixers pointed out and you ignored) ticket prices are higher. The Union may be 3 years old, but I doubt they get to 10 because the league will be out of business by then. I'm not even knocking soccer as a sport, I have alot of respect for it. But MLS soccer in this country is like watching minor league baseball instead of MLB. Spencer for hire on Jul 11 at 10:01 Reply +/- If they can somehow get Derrick Williams,caproom and either a young sset or future #1 for Iggy it will become a great offseason. A step back record wise should allow the team to keep this years #1 pick also. GoSixers reply to Spencer for hire on Jul 11 at 10:18 Reply +/- I suppose it would be, and if there were any indication they had that planned, yippee Of course, they could have already had cap room, but see, they screwed that up sfw on Jul 11 at 10:08 Reply +/- If they plan to use ET as the primary backup point guard, they may just add a cheap PF(DeJuan Blair, C Landry?) and point guard(AJ Price?) into the mix, and that's your 2012-13 Seventy Sixers. Brian reply to sfw on Jul 11 at 10:12 Reply +/- If Turner's starting, which I hope he is not, they need a legit PG off the bench imo. Jrue, Iguodala, Thad, N. Young, Moultrie, Harkless, Hawes, Vucevic, Lavoy, Turner, Wright...that's 11 guys who will be under contract, correct? And they have $3M in cap space left, give or take. sfw reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 10:21 Reply +/- So, there is a 13 man roster? 2 spots available for 3 mil as currently constructed? Not much to work with. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 10:23 Reply +/- If Turner's starting, which I hope he is not, they need a legit PG off the bench imo. Nu uh, they didn't need one last year and they were one game from the ECF - they know what they're doing Big Will on Jul 11 at 10:18 Reply +/- I like Blair a lot, but I'm sure if the Sixers sign him it will be the year that his knees finally require surgery. GoSixers on Jul 11 at 10:28 Reply +/- Well Chris Sheridan says it'll be done soon, which probably means it'll drag out forever, but if Iguodala is being moved, I think the Dwight Howard thing has to 'settle' before teams start looking at other trade options. Chris Sheridan: Source on Dwight Howard trade: "It's all coming to a head." Translation: He's being dealt somewhere today. Twitter marcus on Jul 11 at 10:31 Reply +/- Jrue can want a max contract but I don't see it happening. Brook Lopez is probably a top 5 center and any decent big is going to get paid so I think that was a bad comparison. GoSixers on Jul 11 at 10:38 Reply +/- Adam Aron: New ownership just delivered @Sixers best season in 9 years. The '12-'13 76ers will show real progress, in which confetti will fly at WFC. Twitter Someone get this guy some pom poms and one of those cheerleader megaphones Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 10:46 Reply +/- I don't think we're looking at an improvement over last season with the roster right now. If they trade Iguodala for young assets/picks, they're going to take a big step backwards. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 10:50 Reply +/- Neither do I, and since the new owners had very little input on the team that made the playoffs, his claim of 'new ownership' delivering the best season in 9 years is a bit beyond the pale, not to mention, I mean, sure, they made the second round, but barring a Derrick Rose injury, the new ownership would have delivered the same season (save Eddie Jordan interruption) in the last 5 seasons or so? I mean seriously, this guy needs to get off twitter, every time he talks, I'm worried that somehow he didn't make his money it just somehow showed up on his door one day Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 11:03 Reply +/- Well, they put the kibosh on trading Iguodala for Monta Ellis, so they probably deserve a lot of the credit for last season's success, be it questionable or not. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 11:05 Reply +/- I guess But taking credit for the delivery when the majority of the roster was built (including the coach) before they got here is kind of ridiculous. Not to mention, will he take credit for next seasons bad season or will he blame someone else? It's easy to take someone elses bows Brian on Jul 11 at 11:11 Reply +/- Next season is when the BRI shifts to 50%, correct? So the cap is probably going to drop significantly. Brian reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 11:12 Reply +/- BRI split. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 11:16 Reply +/- I think it was two seasons yes, and the fact that the cap didn't go up at all this year doesn't bode well for the cap going forward. I suppose all those folks who are praising the sixers for their 'slow' rebuild nonsense probably didn't notice that Dallas just said 'f it' we can't get deron williams we aren't wasting money Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 11:26 Reply +/- I'm pretty sure this year's cap was part of the bargain. It was frozen at last season's level, which was actually frozen at the previous season's level. The only way it would've gone up is if 50% of BRI represented more than $58M, which was highly unlikely. Brian on Jul 11 at 11:33 Reply +/- OK, so here's the cap situation... Right now, assuming Hawes and Lavoy signed simple flat contracts ($6.5M/year for Hawes, $3M/year for Lavoy), the Sixers have $54,612,692 committed to 11 players. Meaning they have $3,431,308 left to sign two players. They also have a new exception, the $2.75M mid-level for teams with cap space. Meaning, a team under the cap can use their space, then use this version of the MLE to add another player. For next season, again assuming flat contracts for Hawes and Lavoy, they have $45,144,037 committed to 8 players. That number does not include Jrue, whose qualifying offer will be in the $4M range, I think, while his cap hold will be higher than that. The cap is going down next year, possibly into the low 50's (or as much as $8m lower than this season). With Jrue's cap hold, they're probably at about $50M. So no cap room of note. If they trade Iguodala and take no long-term salary back, they'd probably have room for a max contract next summer. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 11:36 Reply +/- Sigh... Dollar Bill on Jul 11 at 12:30 Reply +/- Seemingly, Lavoy Allen has been pre-approved for credit by the organization and some fans. Not given to saying much, he appears to be the Sixers version of Chauncey the Gardener in "Being There." 860 minutes, including playoffs. I'm gonna wait to draw conclusions about his place among his peers. Next season will talk loudly about his aptitude and fit. marcus reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 11 at 12:48 Reply +/- U never have anything good to say about the Sixers or its players why don't u come out the closet and say u really hate the Sixers hell even frank ocean came out the closet so how about it I think you will feel much better about being a hater. Brian reply to marcus on Jul 11 at 12:49 Reply +/- He used to say he liked Speights, I think. Dollar Bill reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 13:11 Reply +/- I said Speights had some use, just as Hollins did. Collins by deed said Speights was of zero use on his needy team - that was the stuff of my objection. GoSixers reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 11 at 13:14 Reply +/- In your defense - Speights was the closest thing to a low post player the sixers have had in over a decade, but he didn't pass, and he didn't play defense, so he's not much use except as a guy off the bench who shoots a lot - memphis seems to like accumulating big men GoSixers reply to marcus on Jul 11 at 12:51 Reply +/- There's very little good to say about sixers players, aside from Iguodala, and most people here have nothing good to say about him. The sixers aren't a good team, why should there be good to say. What you call a hater, others call realistic, if you want positivity, follow Aron's twitter. The sixers are worse now than they were at the end of the season, just front court alone, not sure how anyone can say other wise GoSixers reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 13:02 Reply +/- Are we going to a sock hop>? Dollar Bill reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 13:15 Reply +/- ...and the Sadie Hawkins Square Dance. Dollar Bill reply to marcus on Jul 11 at 12:59 Reply +/- Put on your pleated skirt and jump up and kick your heels, what do I care. marcus reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 11 at 13:03 Reply +/- Like I said just come out the closet bro u will feel better. GoSixers reply to marcus on Jul 11 at 13:05 Reply +/- Sigh, If you can't be bothered to spell out a simple word like you, could you at least take your veiled homophobia somewhere else where it's welcomed, like philly.com - or belmont shore is always up for some good ignorance marcus reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 13:24 Reply +/- I see you go back & forth with everyone on here only time you run with your tail between your legs is when Brian calls you out than you disappear for a few days. Brian I apologize & I will never disrespect your blog again I truly appreciate what you & other fans contribute to this site. Gosixers when I tell you to go suck a dick I mean that. Malachi Constant reply to marcus on Jul 12 at 20:48 Reply +/- Oh my God you are my favorite person on the internet ever. FKD215 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 14:10 Reply +/- This is a complete aside, but what's the Belmont Shore reference? Is it the Belmont Shore in Long Beach? I live close to there... GoSixers reply to FKD215 on Jul 11 at 14:14 Reply +/- No - it's in reference to a person - I'll just leave it at that :) marcus reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 11 at 13:08 Reply +/- Like I said just come out the closet bro u will feel better. marcus reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 11 at 13:09 Reply +/- I call it like I see it yes the Sixers don't deserve much praise for the off season but imo the Sixers wasn't bad all season and when I mention to dollar bill that he never has anything nice to say about the team or the players that was a general statement. Dude is a hater if I ever saw one Dollar Bill reply to marcus on Jul 11 at 14:06 Reply +/- XFL standout Rod Smart, "He Hate Me" johnrosz on Jul 11 at 12:46 Reply +/- Pretty excited for ET to troll everyone next year and miraculously turn into a productive player. The slit your wrists attitude around here lately has been brutal, everything is gonna be alright guys. Checking out some summer league now, Sullinger is a fat boy, no way around it. That's gotta be a legit concern, he's got some skill but if he couldn't even work himself into shape for the draft, why should anyone expect him to care about his conditioning going forward? GoSixers reply to johnrosz on Jul 11 at 12:52 Reply +/- And if Turner doesn't 'troll' (you might want to find out what the word means on the internet) everyone and is exactly what he was this year, and last year...what then...I'm sure there will be an excuse for it of course, probably dorrell wrights fault. It's Dalembert all over again, but with much higher expectations to start with marcus on Jul 11 at 13:10 Reply +/- That reply was to gosixers KH on Jul 11 at 13:21 Reply +/- I honestly believe this team is flying by the seat of there pants at this point. Currently, I believe we have a weaker team then the one that ended the season. Now I'm fine with that if we continue to tear the team down or we make a bold move to somehow acquire a quality big man but if the goal is to slowly turn the roster over over time while remaining competitive they are sadly mistaken. There is plenty of off-season to go but my personal opinion on the roster as it stands today is a late lottery finish and a totally wasted season. I pray thats not what happens. GoSixers reply to KH on Jul 11 at 13:59 Reply +/- Depending on what happens in Orlando, the sixers even as currently constructed might slip into the playoffs. Pull out the Hawks, Pull out the magic...if you pull out the sixers 3 teams need to pop up to make the playoffs over the sixers. Let's say the Nets get Howard - fine they're in Who else has shown enough improvement to be in the playoffs that wasn't last year? You could argue milwaukee with a 'full year' of monta and what's his name - but that could be a disaster. Toronto maybe has a claim - but that requires a lot from a euro rookie and lowry to be awesome The Wizards maybe, but okafor and ariza, really? That team still sinks Detroit, Cleveland, Charlotte, anyone think they're going to be vastly improved? That's the problem - I mean even if they miss the playoffs, they'll probably be the '9 seed' which is pick 14 in the lottery - might as well lose in the first round once that happens GoSixers reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 14:06 Reply +/- Though if Aron's twitter is any guide - that's their hope - to rebuild (supposedly) and still make the playoffs. That worked so well after 2002 didn't it? The Greek on Jul 11 at 13:39 Reply +/- The only move that pisses me off is signing Hawes. I like Nick Young. Stan reply to The Greek on Jul 11 at 14:27 Reply +/- 1. I'm still hoping that the 3nd year is a team option. 2. If the Sixers are rebuilding and looking to tank, Hawes is the best guy to play at C. GoSixers reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 14:35 Reply +/- No - he's not - if you're looking to rebuild and tank at the same time - throw Voose in there and find out what he's made of immediately - for a lot less money The Greek reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 15:03 Reply +/- I just think that giving Hawes all that money was a waste. Brian on Jul 11 at 13:58 Reply +/- So three teams are willing to give Brook Lopez a max offer today: Brooklyn, Portland and Charlotte. And I guess Orlando's willing to give him the max as well. I guess the good news about the new CBA is that only really disciplined teams are ever going to have cap space. Meaning instead of four teams willing to overpay bad players, you'll just have the team that drafted him with the bird rights to grossly overpay them. Stan reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 14:24 Reply +/- Omer Asik got paid 8 million a year despite averaging 14 mpg over his 2 year career. Giving a max contract to a 24 year old who averaged 17 points, 8 rebounds, and 1.5 blocks per game over his career doesn't seem like a terrible move. He may be slow and soft, but finding a guy who can put up those numbers is very difficult. Brian reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 14:40 Reply +/- I like how you rounded 7.4 up to 8. Lopez played 5 games last season, and we're talking about a 7-footer with foot issues. Forgetting the health issues, though. The guy rebounds worse than most small forwards, and some shooting guards. You could maybe live w/ the weak rebounding and/or the bad foot if the guy was an otherworldly scorer, but he's really not. He's pretty much as efficient as Hibbert (who was overpaid, but is worth more imo). Lopez becomes more and more like Bargnani every season. Stan reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:44 Reply +/- There aren't many decent centers on the market. Some guys will be overpaid, it's just the way things work. Do you think it's easy to find a better center on the free agent market or with a mid round pick? Teams overpay because their options are limited. Omer Asik got 3 years and $25 million, Jeff Green got 4 years and $40 million, Ersan got 5 years and $45 million, and Roy Hibbert got 4 years and $58 million. Giving Lopez 4 years and $58 million isn't that absurd. The guy was a solid rebounder during his first two years and regressed because of injury. He's only 24 years old and has time to improve. Offensively he can do stuff that that half the players his same position cannot do. Brian reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 15:49 Reply +/- In the Nets case, if that's the market price, they pretty much have to sign him. It's going to be five years before they can afford more than the tax payer's MLE ($3m/year). But Portland and Charlotte? You don't pay a guy like this max money to join a team that isn't built. It's stupid. Especially considering the cap is dropping like a rock next year as his contract escalates. And pointing at one bad contract and saying, "See, everyone's doing it!" Doesn't make it a good move. Brooklyn is backed into a corner because he's their best option at the five, and they can pay him whatever the market says he's worth because they have his bird rights. Portland and Charlotte are just trying to flush money down the toilet chasing a guy who isn't even close to being a dominant player. Iguodala has more of an impact on a game than Lopez, by a large margin. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 14:25 Reply +/- Omer Asik got vastly over paid in an attempt to try and poison pill the bulls from matching his offer sheet (which they probably will match anyway) You're comparing apples and yams Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 14:37 Reply +/- He's still getting paid more than 8 million a year. But in regards to Lopez, how many 24 year old centers out there that have put up the same numbers or better numbers that Lopez has put up? Could you say that Marc Gasol is a better center than Brook Lopez? Yet that guy got paid the max as well. Centers who put up numbers will get paid, because you can't teach height. GoSixers reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 14:39 Reply +/- You're right, you can't teach height And thus you draft sean bradley second in the nba draft Brian reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 14:46 Reply +/- Gasol is worth about twice as much as Brook Lopez. Defense, rebounding, efficient scoring, facilitating. If you want to discuss this stuff, that's fine, but using PPG as the barometer is idiotic. Tyler on Jul 11 at 14:32 Reply +/- i havent downright given up on turner yet, but just out of curiosity, what do you think our roster would look like if we had drafter favors instead? you think we would be on the way to contending by now? Stan reply to Tyler on Jul 11 at 14:35 Reply +/- Brooklyn would be rebuilding with Turner and Kanter. We could have offered Favors for Horford or Howard. CSTH on Jul 11 at 14:59 Reply +/- I guess we have to assume that Iggy is going to be dealt. Brian, this question is for you. What are the parameters of a deal for Iggy that will not make you lose your shit? If we can get a young piece that fits, not another 6'8 240lb swingman, but one that fits and clear enough space for a max deal next summer, would you do it? Brian reply to CSTH on Jul 11 at 15:15 Reply +/- I kind of doubt if any trade they make sending Iguodala out is going to make me happy. I think what I'm looking for is a definitive direction. The moves they've made to this point have had nothing to do with a rebuild. They're short term moves designed to keep the talent level close to stable, while not taking on any long term money. If you're going to rebuild, you don't do that. You make moves to cut money, but the goal is to get younger and suffer through a bad season or two so you can improve in the draft. To answer your question, though, if they trade him for a young asset with potential and/or picks w/out taking back any long-term salary, at least that would show a plan. If they trade him in some kind of lateral move, then I don't know what the hell they're doing. The Hawes deal pretty much spoils everything for me. I could get the rest of the moves if they happened and Hawes walked. As it stands, they're pretty much capped out for this summer and the next unless they give up their best player. That's not really putting yourself in a position to pounce if a difference maker becomes available. Brian reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:18 Reply +/- It also really bothers me that they wasted all of the cap space this summer before the Dwight Howard situation was settled. Right now, Howard says he'll only re-sign w/ the Nets, but if he gets traded to a different team, he can't go to the Nets as a free agent next summer, they don't have the cap space. He's going to have to sign somewhere else. If the Sixers still had next year's #1 pick, if they had almost $20M in cap space, they could make a very strong offer to Orlando, then spend the year convincing him to stay. They could also get involved in a three-way deal to get Bynum in Philly and then go to work on him for a year. Instead, they're spectators as this thing plays out because they just had to sign Hawes and Nick Young ASAP. tk76 reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:37 Reply +/- I could be wrong- but I don't think Dwight or Bynum are realistic options for this franchise right now. They need to get some more credibility around the league thrugh their home grown players before a high profile guy is willing to stay around... or move the franchise to a NY or LA. Brian reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 15:42 Reply +/- So if you get one of them, then they walk, the cupboard is left bare, right? According to the optimists, their goal right now is to have an absolutely bare cupboard in two years anyway. What's the harm? Brian reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:44 Reply +/- And here's the thing about Dwight. His only option among the premier destinations next summer will be Dallas. Chicago, LAL, BOS, NYK, BKN, LAC, MIA. None of those teams can sign him as a free agent if he hits the open market. It's a limited pool, you don't have to beat out the huge markets, outside of Dallas. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:24 Reply +/- They're short term moves designed to keep the talent level close to stable, while not taking on any long term money Two words for you Al Jefferson And I bet it costs a pick - 2015 i guess - to get it done too Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 15:34 Reply +/- Jefferson wouldn't shock me. Doing that would mean cap room next summer, at least. Probably a lottery pick around #12 as well. That would sort of be a direction, I suppose. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:47 Reply +/- Really Do the math, if orlando loses Dwight, 3 teams have to be better than the sixers if the hawks, and magic, (and sixers) are out of the playoffs Aside from the nets who do you think would be better than that team with jefferson? Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 15:53 Reply +/- I think Atlanta's still better, so that's one more team. Milwaukee, Detroit, Toronto, Cleveland. Any one of them could get to like 38 wins, which I don't think the Sixers would reach with Al Jefferson, minus Iguodala. Plus, if Iguodala goes, that means Evan Turner has free reign to wreak havoc on the Sixers offense, which is a recipe for losses. sfw reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 16:04 Reply +/- I was really thinking Jefferson until I realized that Utah traded D Harris to Atlanta for Marvin Williams. Not sure they have a need for Iggy right now. They also have Gordon Hayward. sixerfan1220 on Jul 11 at 15:27 Reply +/- i found this interesting, especially considering alot of people think they screwed themselves this summer sixerfan1220 reply to sixerfan1220 on Jul 11 at 15:28 Reply +/- forgot to post the link, here it is http://m.delcotimes.com/delcotimes/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Dy8yi6la&full=true#display GoSixers on Jul 11 at 15:51 Reply +/- Marc Stein: Just going online: Philly trade for Dorell Wright is expanding to include Hornets, who have agreed to send Jarrett Jack to Warriors Twitter Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 15:55 Reply +/- I actually like Jarrett Jack. Isn't this going to be his 4th team? I wonder what the Hornets got in return. Do they even have a true PG now? Brian reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 15:56 Reply +/- Sink or swim for Rivers, I guess. Rivers Gordon ???? Ryan Anderson A. Davis Who's their small forward? GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 16:04 Reply +/- Ryan ANderson according to what I read today - The hornets are slotting Davis as a PF and only a PF - not a center Rodney Buford reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 16:09 Reply +/- That's a puzzling trade for NO unless they are in talks with one of the other remaining PG FAs. Jack was pretty good for them last year and as a veteran, you could do worse with a young squad around him. Brian on Jul 11 at 15:55 Reply +/- So the Hornets get a trade exception and that euro? Or a pick from the Sixers? sixerfan1220 reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 15:57 Reply +/- trade exception and that euro GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 16:02 Reply +/- According to the report - sixers get wright - warriors get jack hornets get a trade exceptioni and the useless euro Brian on Jul 11 at 16:02 Reply +/- It's completely amazing to me that one of these guys is getting the max while the other two signed for less than $10M/year. I had to use Lopez's last full season, since he missed all of last year, which is another reason to scratch your head. Stan reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 16:08 Reply +/- Aren't they mainly jump shooters on the offensive end? Shouldn't there be more of a premium paid to guys who can score in the paint? GoSixers reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 16:12 Reply +/- Do points in the paint count more? Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 16:16 Reply +/- They are harder to get and player who can get them is more valuable IMO. GoSixers reply to Stan on Jul 11 at 16:18 Reply +/- So Lou Williams is more valuable than Andre Iguodala? He's better at scoring close to the basket than Andre Iguodala. It's your opinion - but - it's wrong - sorry Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:29 Reply +/- I think he meant a better scorer, not player. Like Lou is a better scorer than Iggy is, largely because of his ability to take drives into the paint and get fouled. A player who can get his own shot, like Lopez, is a more valuable scorer head to head if the numbers are similar enough. Lopez's rebounding is what shouldn't make him a max guy, but he provides something pretty unique in the NBA as far as his scoring. Ryan Anderson isn't known for creating his own shot and is a guy who benefited largely because of all the attention Dwight Howard received, so it will be interesting to see how he adjusts to New Orleans with less open threes available. On the other hand, Lopez's numbers will translate to pretty much any situation. Add in the heavier load Lopez carried and the fact he didn't play with a very good point guard, I think barring injury he projects to be a better scorer moving forward than those two guys. GoSixers reply to Rich on Jul 11 at 18:38 Reply +/- What he said was a player who can get those 'inside points' is more valuable. ERgo...my comment. I don't buy the premise at all - I find it flawed and full of nonsense - and thus I expressed it nonsensically If scoring 'at the basket' makes a player more valuable - then Lou Williams would be more valuable than Andre Iguodala, and only a few select folks would saythat. Those folks fall into the group that think 'iguodala for monta ellis' was a good idea. Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:09 Reply +/- Again though, there should be a premium on Lopez's scoring ability. A guy who can get his own points inside is more valuable than a guy who can't if they do it at the same general rate. It's not nonsense to say his points are more valuable, because he should be able to replicate it in any situation, where Anderson is more dependent on others. Lopez's defensive rebounding is what makes him an equal or slightly worse player than those guys. They way he scores his points is in fact a skill set. The inside points he gets from posting up are a more valuable commodity. GoSixers reply to Rich on Jul 11 at 19:30 Reply +/- That all depends on the offense you run and the rest of your team...Lopez will benefit from Joe Johnson drawing doubles (probably) but does Gerald Wallace suffer because Lopez is in the way? GoSixers reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:32 Reply +/- Sigh, I got that backwards - sorry :) Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:45 Reply +/- There's hardly any offense that wouldn't benefit from a guy who can post up on the block, get his own shot, and make them at a decent rate. Gerald Wallace isn't a post player, so it's difficult to find a reason Brook Lopez would "get in his way." If he did, that's more of an indictment on Wallace, because Bynum, Howard, or anybody with even a semblance of a back to the basket game would also do the same. tk76 reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 17:30 Reply +/- Lopez is being hugely overpaid, but he is the only center on that list. A huge difference being a center versus a PF. Almost every NBA team has a solid PF or two, while only a handful have quality centers. Then again I don't consider Lopez a quality center- but a few GM;s do. Alvin reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 21:52 Reply +/- Sixers must be the only team currently without a solid PF. GoSixers on Jul 11 at 16:06 Reply +/- Bucher reporting that Nets are officially 'out' of the Howard pursuit (meaning they're going to over pay Brook Lopez themselves) Fear of a Offer sheet is a dumb reason to pull out of pursuit - at least until the offer sheet exists Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 16:14 Reply +/- They only have 3 days to match and they've been working for the past month on a trade that hasn't gotten anywhere. They can't just let him walk GoSixers reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 16:17 Reply +/- And yet - I'm aware of all of that I'm also aware there's no offer sheet yet, and that according to reports the nets have already agreed on 4 years / 58 million (i.e. the max anyone can offer on an offer sheet) and are just negotiating a fifth year terms. Again, Pulling out of the howard talks before they have to - and they don't have to yet - is stupid TNT on Jul 11 at 16:46 Reply +/- It's not stupid. It's the way the rules work. They can sign and trade a restricted free agent. But if Lopez signs with another team all they can do is match ... and what they are matching was not a sign/trade offer. That would mean they can't trade him for a year. If they sign him first, they can sign/trade him as part of a deal with the Magic if the deal is in place. But if they just sign him in a standalone deal ... they can't trade him until Dec 15. That's why they needed to get this done by yesterday ... and they have been at risk all day today and lucky that Lopez hasn't already signed an offer. The 'negotiating over the 5th year' is probably them trying to string his decision out as long as possible. GoSixers reply to TNT on Jul 11 at 16:51 Reply +/- Yawn The Nets and Lopez have agreed in principle to a 4 year deal for 58 million, at least, and are still negotiating the fifth year, they've made it clear he'll get AT LEAST what any other team can offer him. Tellem isn't a stupid agent - he knows he'll make max money better if they do a sign and trade with orlando - he cna leverage it to force a fifth year. ANYONE can offer and offer sheet - he doesn't have to sign it (and he'd be STUPID to sign it before the howard thing is resolved, he has more leverage in it to get the fifth year) I understand how the 'principle' works - I'm just saddened that no one sees how it's not like Brook Lopez has to sign an offer sheet if offered to him - especially when the nets have already guaranteed AT LEAST what any other team has offered and now they're just haggling over the fifth year. It would be ASININE to turn around and then sign an offer sheet, and thus give up that fifth year. So yes, I'm going to stick with 'it's stupid' while people just tell me how it's not stupid without actually adding anything to the conversation of note or value For the cheap seats HE ALREADY HAS A FOUR YEAR MAX OFFER FROM THE NETS AND THEY"RE NEGOTIATING TERMS ON THE FIFTH Brian reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 17:03 Reply +/- I don't believe he gets the fifth year if it's a sign-and-trade (though that might be one of the rules that kicks in next summer). GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 11 at 17:06 Reply +/- The point is that the nets and lopez have already agreed on the framework of a deal that matches what any other team can offer, and he has a very smart and powerful agent - he knows if he went and screwed up the Howard thing if it was still in place - that would be bad. i don't care that other teams can offer the sheet - i doubt highly lopez would sign it because he has the jersey deal in his pocket and that's all they can offer anyway Fear of lopez signing an offer sheet when they've already agreed on terms of a four year framework is one of those spin things the plebes who ignore the facts buy You know - like Rod Thorn being the GM :) Jay reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 17:21 Reply +/- Jem, I know you like to talk in certainties - I certainly remember how certain you were that Dalembert was a negative player. But there's anything but certainties here. First, Brook Lopez might decide that he can't afford to wait for something that might never happen and he needs to make sure he signs A deal. Second, he might decide he doesn't want to live in Orlando. Third, the Nets might realize this is all fruitless. They've called all the teams, the other teams have their number and are doubtless calling them. It really is possible that nothing is going to happen and it's time to move on. Can they say that with 100% certainty. Of course not, but they might put it as 2% likely and they think there's, say, 40% likelihood Lopez goes somewhere else. This all ignores the idea of whether or not it's a good idea to sign Brook Lopez, but your non stop posting of certainties is so grating. GoSixers on Jul 11 at 17:51 Reply +/- Brooklyn could have Dwight right now if Nets didn't deal an unprotected No. 1 to Portland for Gerald Wallace. That pick, plus a few others and throw-ins would've gotten deal done. Sulia Jason reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:08 Reply +/- They could of had him too if he didn't sign the opt in as well lol. GoSixers reply to Jason on Jul 11 at 18:10 Reply +/- Yes they could have But if Dwight hadn't opted in, rumors are that the magic had three deals on the table they could have chosen - and would have - though he wasn't 'blackmailed' like Dwight says - opting in was his last move if he didn't want to go to those three teams, but again, if BIlly King (you know, genius who traded for joe johnson) hadn't wasted a pick on Gerald Wallace, he'd have a much better team right now Jason reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:21 Reply +/- He still would of been a Unrestricted Free Agent this off-season. Dwight isn't too bright. GoSixers reply to Jason on Jul 11 at 18:33 Reply +/- Yes, that is quite ironic GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:06 Reply +/- Chris Kaman - one year deal THAT's how you keep cap flexibility tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:14 Reply +/- IMO no a big difference between a 1 year or 2 year deal. Both preserve flexibility. It is the 4 year deals that lock you in to a certain path (like Thad Young's deal.) GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 18:32 Reply +/- Yes, i get to you there's no difference between one year and two year - except there is - a year - again people want to rationalize or justify it saying it's 'only' two years - but it's part of the greater whole of stupidity and over paying for mediocrity. WHy would you give Spencer Hawes 2 years when kaman - who is better than hawes - is settling for one year. one year of hawes at 8 million is better than 2 years of hawes at 13 million Especially with a salary cap likely to go down in the next year or two...people are ignoring the new calculation and the new reality...dollars are worth even more - and they wasted a year (in additino to the lavoy screw up compounding issues) on spencer freaking hawes but since it's only one wasted year it's 'no big deal' A wasted year here, a wasted year there, suddenly it's 11 years since you made the nba finals, yo're mired in mediocrity and making stupid decisions year after year, but since they're only 2 year decisions, people can't see the long term pattern...it's all a portion of the whole tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:50 Reply +/- I could care less whether they have Hawes versus Kaman next year. Neither are anything other than roster fillers until you can get a long term option at center. If they dropped Hawes they would have had to sign some other useless 1-2 year center, since no one worthwhile and getable is on the market (unless you think Howard is a real option.) Long term they need a real answer at center, and they could not find one this year so they tread water. They are not going to be able to find long term answers at every spot this one summer so sometimes you go stop-gap. I get that 1 year is less of a commitment than 2 years. But that does not make either a long term commitment or something that hurts a team's flexibility. Maybe you would rather them go with Lavoy ad Vuce at center in the hope they lose more games. But that is not the direction they are choosing. GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:00 Reply +/- Actually - since you've tied up 6 million in 2013/2014 on Spencer Hawes - then by definition it hurts the teams flexibility - next off season When guys like Chris Paul and Dwight Howard and Josh Smith might be looking for new homes But it's more important to stay mediocre and lose int he first round of the playoffs PS - if you could care less - you really should tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:35 Reply +/- 1. So you don't think they can dump contracts that will only have 1 year left on them? 2. The Sixers could have 15M, 20M or 25M in cap space next year... and CP3 and Dwight won't be coming to Philly. What exactly do you think the Sixers could have done this offseason? They were going to sign a center becasue that is what teams do -even lottery teams. If you wnat to get good players you can't have a completely broken team. If you wnat to develop young players you can't have a completely broken tema. That does not mean you sign Hawes (which I hate.) But it means that you feel in glaring needs with stopgaps- and any center they would have signed would be garbage. Hawes is a stopgap. Any a 2 year deal is a stopgap deal- despite how Brian wants to turn it into a conspiracy where Collins "really wanted to give him a 4 year deal but was stopped by ownership.) Along the same lines, you seem to be saying that signing Hawes means that this ownership is now somehow locked into a short term outlook.... when giving 1 and 2 year deals means that they opposite is the case. they are thinking long term- they just have limited options. Again, I hate the Hawes signing as much as anyone. I'm just not going to read into it that the Sixers somehow want to have guys like Hawes at center long term or that they are a "win now" ownership. If that was the case they would be adding guys like Hump. GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:40 Reply +/- I think it's easier not to have to dump contracts with one year left on them - especially when the craptacular player wouldn't have garnered a 2 year contract on the market probably. I get it - people want to minimize the stupidity of the hawes move with the years or how 'easy' it will be to dump an expiring contract of 6.5 million dollars for a close to useless center They want to look at it in a vacuum not as part of a bigger issue - the Allen mishandling is just ignored for instance - It was a stupid contract - pure and simple - I don't care what justifications you use for it - Spencer Hawes is not a multi year player - he's not even a LOOGY - and those guys shouldn't get multi year deals either - find a desperate NBDL guy with height - sign him to a 2 year minimum contract deal - you'll probably get as much positive from him as you will Hawes. It's a dumb deal - pure and simple - and the justifications regarding it's 'only' two years are people who are still deluded into think the sixers have a plan - it's a stupid contract for a terrible player - and no justification of length of amount makes it not stupid or makes hawes not terrible The fact that chris kaman agreed to a one year deal (for slightly more money yes) demonstrates how stupid the hawes deal was cause kaman, even kaman now, is far better than Hawes and hes' taking a one year deal. It's evidence of a greater problem, but the greater problem is too complicated, so people just want to focus on one thing like it stands alone It's a franchise with no clue...pure and siple, that's how i see it tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:48 Reply +/- What is strange to me is that you seem to be interpreting the Sixers off-season moves through a lens of how they have operated in the past. While in my view they have turned a new page in terms of how they want to build a team. This summer is the exact opposite of what they did the Iggy/Brand FA summer, or when the extended Sam, Lou or any number of other players (including Thad.) Looking throughout the NBA, the Sixers have shown more restraint than pretty much every other team that has made signings. Sure, it would be great if they were executing a complete turn-around ala what the Celtics or heat did. But it flat out is not an option for them to do that. So they are trying to increase the value of their current young players while creating a window for action over the next 2 years. And if you look at how the CBA is structures, a lot of teams will start feeling real pain in 2 years- so I think the Sixers plan to be ready for that is smart. And I can understand how they would want a decent team in place for at that time so that a major addition or 2 can really move the needle. GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:51 Reply +/- While in my view they have turned a new page in terms of how they want to build a team. If you say so - they still seem a rudderless ship mired in mediocrity I think the irony that you think they turned a page while handing the keys over to the coach like they did with Larry Brown is kind of humorous to me. I think ignoring the variety of stupid moves made in the past year and saying 'hey look it's someone new so it's different' - and not taking into account cap holds, and a reduced salary cap - again - the polyana's want to say 'oh boy new owners' New owners who haven't done one fucking smart intelligent thing towards building a contending team since they arrived - yes you're right. "If you wnat to get good players you can't have a completely broken team. If you wnat to develop young players you can't have a completely broken tema." ANd yet somehow you think keeping spencer hawes, AT ALL, doesn't indicate a broken team. Always thought you were a bit rational about things, but seems I was wrong tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:57 Reply +/- I'm guessing you wanted them to go into the season with Lavoy and Vuce as their center? Because I honestly don't see other centers out there that they could have signed that would have been a good signing. Basically, IMO they were going to have a crap center next year. I could care less if it is Hawes, Sam, Okafor or whomever. I hate watching Hawes more than the other gys listed- but Hawes actually fits the scheme they want to run while the other guys do not. There are much better centers out there that would be great fits with the Sixers. I'm just not seeing how tose guys would have become Sixers this summer. But maybe you are aware of options that I'm missing? Hobbes reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:57 Reply +/- Fair thoughts. Directed at and wasted on blog's resident tubesteak. GoSixers reply to Hobbes on Jul 11 at 20:00 Reply +/- Oh please - go back to having sex with calvin Charlie H reply to tk76 on Jul 12 at 22:29 Reply +/- This would be a rational take on the situation, so you're not going to get anywhere. What's strange to me is that he thinks a team that was one bad early-in-the-clock shot by Lou Williams from playing in the conference finals is run by clueless people - no, by ONE clueless person who likes to sign players he knows are bad (which must mean he's actually smart, just clueless because he doesn't know he's smart, or something) and only cares about his coaching legacy, madly accumulating players who will help him win now but cleverly signing them to short contracts so he can win now with other terrible players a few years from now. Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:52 Reply +/- Did you read anything TK wrote? I'm serious. You would think he wrote a Hawes Haiku or something. He said "I hate that we signed Hawes" twice. GoSixers reply to Rich on Jul 11 at 19:54 Reply +/- And in another comment he tried to rationalize it as 'not so bad' and 'not stupid' If he can't make up his mind with things - then I'm not sure what the point is tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 20:06 Reply +/- The difference between how I see the Sixers actions this summer and how you see them is that I am trying to remove my personal feeling about the "throw away contracts." I'm not a fan of Hawes or Nick Young. I am not going to enjoy watching them play. But that does not mean I put their signings in the same league as what this franchise used to routinely do in terms of locking guys up for years and years. You can argue that the Sixers should just fully tank. And honestly, having Hawes is sort of tanking anyway. But I just don't see how 2 year contracts hurt a team. Sometimes you make short signings until you have a legit chance to make good signings. This summer is one of those years. Toms of mediocre payers are getting big money for 4 years. These are the players available to the Sixers. And put in that circumstance, signing some bums t 1-2 years and waiting for better choices is the right move and a measured response for a team in their circumstance. eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 22:54 Reply +/- "But that does not mean I put their signings in the same league as what this franchise used to routinely do in terms of locking guys up for years and years" But, one can rightfully argue one of their signings is in the same league on at least one account. And it is still routine. I see where your argument and stance is, but if you take these owners, and management since they've been the new owners into equation, you have to see the whole. And frankly, you've mentioned several times today that they were prudent not to hand out long term, or 4 year, deals in this offseason's free agent market to mediocre players and they are smart for not doing that. Only problem with that is, you can just flip this offseason with last because of the not-too-smart long term contract handed to a mediocre limited player in Thad (though giving credit, you did mention once above the deal for Thad) They hamstrung themselves sort of with that deal you could argue, and that's without mentioning the Lavoy Allen senseless debacle which caused several ripple effects this year with the cap. Or the Hawes mess. The reason I'm not sold on this mindset of some concerning the "they're setting themselves up for near-term flexibility" to sign free agents is, yeah, you have to be willing to take a shot in the dark and hope, but sometimes and often times you end up like Dallas this year. Particularly if you're not a premier city and destination and don't have much to offer in terms of existing talent already assembled. Like Philadephia. I would argue this mindset, or their rumored talked about supposed plan, is more just like a fan's - based solely on hope. And not much of a determined direction. Yeah, you have to give yourself that chance at a minimum; but it seems more a foolhardy method to me than a measured one. Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 20:23 Reply +/- All your ranting and raving is about how Hawes is a bad deal and how it kills cap flexibility, "pure and simple." But you never address the point when people contest your rants about the Sixers not having a clue about cap flexibility. All of their short-term deals and moves like letting Lou walk absolutely suggest otherwise, but you keep going back to the Hawes deal even after people freaking agree with you that they didn't want it to happen. In fact you might have already skipped the rest of my post and are typing another off-topic cross-sport analogy about how I'm justifying the Hawes signing now. It's possible they are just clueless about Hawes but have the right intentions heading forward. You may not agree with it, but if the roster stays intact, people can logically feel the Sixers do have a delayed rebuild going on, one that will make them more promising to free agents than if nobody was on the team, Hawes deal or not. Rich reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:47 Reply +/- "If you wnat to get good players you can't have a completely broken team. If you wnat to develop young players you can't have a completely broken tema." Well said. tk76 reply to Rich on Jul 11 at 19:50 Reply +/- Hah, well spelled as well. Lavoy Allen's Motor reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 18:17 Reply +/- What I wouldn't give to have that ugly motherfucker on a one year deal instead of Hawes for two. Sixers could have done this. Nick on Jul 11 at 19:03 Reply +/- CJ Watson waived... 6ers not mentioned as a likely candidate tho GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:29 Reply +/- Interesting Possibly Iguodala Impacting News The Trail Blazers and Timberwolves are discussing a deal that would bring Portland free-agent forward Nicolas Batum to Minnesota in exchange for two future first-round draft picks and a veteran small forward acquired from a third team, a league source told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher. ESPN.co Not sure what the sixers get out of this deal though, especially with Wright already gone - by the way - one of those damn first round picks should be to the sixer Lavoy Allen's Motor reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:32 Reply +/- I've read that it's Kyle Korver. Iggy plus two firsts for Batum would be silly. GoSixers reply to Lavoy Allen's Motor on Jul 11 at 19:34 Reply +/- Only posted what I saw, and they said it also has to be completed Wednesday (tonight) night or they would sign the offer sheet (which is weird to me to have such a tight deadline) Korver isn't fully guaranteed for next season is he? GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:35 Reply +/- Mavericks - amnesty Haywood - god what a craptacular deal that was I think is the sixers signed hawes to such a deal brian would just cancel the hosting on DF immediately tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:40 Reply +/- Unrelated- but I think the SIxers would no sign a guy like Haywood- even to 1 year. For whatever reason they value running a system where the bigs pass and stand on the perimeter. Maybe they feel it allows them to open up driving lanes- who knows. No my favorite offensive scheme, but it is actually pretty common in the NBA among both good and bad teams. Not that many teams want centers who live in the post. GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:42 Reply +/- Yes - you're right I mean look how badly it works for teams like the spurs and the lakers... The sixers don't have a plan - or a scheme - i find it laughable that anyone thinks they do tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:53 Reply +/- Philly can't do what LA does becasue players will not force there way to live in Philly the way Kobe, Shaq and others have. LA does a great job, but they are also playing with a stacked hand (as does NY and yet they always seem to find a way to mess it up.) And the Spurs were blessed with the luck of 2 #1 overall studs in a row (much like Orl.) Again, they have played there hand well- but it is a hand that the Sixers have not had. Lets see how the Spurs do after Duncan. GoSixers reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 19:58 Reply +/- You know what you can't do You can't luck into shit when you're mired in mediocrity - the thunder lucked into shit too - why? Cause they maximized their assets and traded their core good players not for mediocre codswallop but to build towards a future. You want to believe they have a plan, I get it, you can make up any excuse you want to justify the perpetual mediocrity, and you're right San Antonio really needed those #1 picks to draft one of the best point guards in the game, it had nothing to do with a good european scouting department that the sixers don't have. I have no idea when you joined the ostrich club, but it seems like you want to ignore reality too and just say 'oh they have a plan' - no they don't have a plan - if they had a plan the elton brand thing wouldn't have been needed to sign nick fucking young. Free agents won't come to philadlephia Players won't force trades to Philadlephia You can't hope for lottery luck Reminds me of a simpsons episode We've tried nothing man, and we're all out of ideas. It seems like since everyone is certain nothing will work that the good ship mediocrity should continue it's journey to nowhere - because - you know - fi you try and it doesn't work OH MY GOD - guess what - you aren't going to win a title this way anyway But sure maybe you'll squeeze out a few playoff games and if you get lucky and a star player goes down you can delude yoursellf into thinking you were 'this close' to the eastern conference finals. I'm going back to laughing - at the franchise - the fan base who is energized by the (so far) horrible idiotic off season, the coach being in charge, the GM being a feeble puppet, it's comical now. Damn It mom - why didn't you move to anywhere else Lavoy Allen's Motor reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 20:09 Reply +/- tl;dr Just wanted to say I really liked the Dorell Wright trade! GoSixers on Jul 11 at 19:44 Reply +/- IN addition to his pimped out BMW - Evan Turner would like you to see his pimped out iphone http://instagram.com/p/M9Zp0_zSCM/ friendsofbsg reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 20:17 Reply +/- Hey JEM, Remember this gem? "He's a 10 million dollar who still makes more mental mistakes than almost anyone else on the floor. THEY COST TEAMS GAMES It's not a matter of looking good or bad, it's doing it CORRECTLY, if he knew what he was doing, and though quicker (basketball wise) he'd be BETTER And maybe worth 10 million." That was you in 2007. You were CERTAIN Dalembert was terrible. Certain. And you would post 100 times a day. Not much has changed. You need to ease up. First, no one's ever right as much as your tone indicates. Second, you're wrong more than average. Tyler reply to GoSixers on Jul 11 at 20:28 Reply +/- everyone hates turner on this site it's ridiculous...he's young and has money and is in the offseason - who cares what he's doing. you act like he's this pretentious asshole who isn't allowed to show off his nice shit that he's earned.....just because you don't like him as a basketball player. spiller27 reply to Tyler on Jul 12 at 0:04 Reply +/- The reason for this is that Brian became so virulently anti-Turner (he said he wanted to trade Turner for a second round pick) that everyone who like Turner just quit the blog. I still lurk and read, and occasionally post, but way less than I used to. The commenters here always slanted toward the anti-Turner side, or at least the loudest commenters. I remember fairly early in the season there was a big Turner vs. Meeks who should start debate (as laughable as that is), and most of the commenters were saying Meeks should start (as even more laughable as that is). Then Brian put up a poll and I think it was 70% in favor of Turner. Turner fans were the silent majority. That's probably not the case anymore though, because nearly every post and comment is laced with anti-Turner remarks. You'd think the guy makes $15M a year. Rodney reply to spiller27 on Jul 12 at 0:17 Reply +/- So, if the message from the vocal minority isn't lock and step with the silent majority, then just take your ball and go home? That sum it up? Second, is it really fair to coin it "anti-Turner" rather than *reality-Turner*? spiller27 reply to Rodney on Jul 12 at 0:28 Reply +/- There's nothing reality-based about saying Jodie Meeks should start over Evan Turner (although i believe Brian sort of abstained from that discussion, but the majority of commenters, at least for a while, wanted Meeks starting, which was a joke). There's also nothing reality-based about saying Evan Turner should be traded for a second-round pick. Rich reply to spiller27 on Jul 12 at 9:21 Reply +/- You do keep talking about the majority of people liking Turner, which I don't quite understand. Is that supposed to justify his play or something? The Sixers probably win the Celtics series if he plays up to snuff. From an objective point of view, he's been a below average basketball player his first two seasons. Turning it into a Turner vs. Meeks discussion, which has been dead for a long time mostly due to apathy, isn't productive. If the fact that Evan Turner can't distinguish himself to the point where he is much better than Meeks, we have a problem. Brian reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 9:24 Reply +/- Below average is being obscenely kind. -0.6 offensive win shares was the worst mark in the league for anyone playing 1500+ minutes. spiller27 reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 20:33 Reply +/- What were the win shares, whatever on earth it means, of Chauncey Billups and Russell Westbrook their first two seasons? Brian reply to spiller27 on Jul 13 at 0:30 Reply +/- Westbrook had 2.6 offensive win shares in his first two seasons. Chauncey had 4.9. Turner had -0.6. Since you asked. spiller27 reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 0:52 Reply +/- Thanks. Makes me wonder what goes into win share then, because their stats in their first two seasons were terrible. Brian reply to spiller27 on Jul 13 at 9:35 Reply +/- Scoring efficiency, assist rate, turnover rate. Don't think offensive rebounding is included. Billups hit a bunch of threes and got to the line a decent amount. Westbrook got to the line a bunch and his assist rate was much higher. Turner was bad pretty much across the board. Didn't hit any threes, rarely got to the line, shot poorly from the line, assist rate was pretty much average for an SG, turnover rate wasn't terrible, but wasn't great either. spiller27 reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 20:11 Reply +/- got it, thanks. bebopdeluxe reply to Rodney on Jul 12 at 0:48 Reply +/- Hmmm..."reality Turner". Clever. The anti-Turner stuff (with Eddie's Heady and eventually Brian joining in on the fun) was certainly a factor in my decision to leave the forum...but a bigger issue was the nasty, snarky tone that threads became around here became on a regular basis...with some particularly choice tidbits from the forum's own Mr. Congeniality (aka GoSixers/Jemagee) located in this very thread. On RealGM...you can put someone on ignore and tune that crap out...but not here. Unnecessarily snarky comments and generally rude and disrespectful posting behavior is tolerated here in a way that was simply not worth dealing with anymore. So I left. Frankly, I know that Jem, Eddie's Heady, Brian and others who tolerate and engage in that style of posting don't give a fuck if I am here or not. If people don't like being part of the DF community, they can leave like I did. And the reality is there are other Sixers forums - other GOOD Sixers forums - that don't tolerate that kind of posting behavior. I'll see you there. eddies' heady's reply to bebopdeluxe on Jul 12 at 7:34 Reply +/- Me having fun in my own way, as I did to stop from crying about Evan freakin' Turner, doesn't come across to me as being disrespectful or snarky to you, or any others, in any way. Your personal feelings about Turner the player allow you to take it that way, which I can't help. I've never ever been disrespectful directly to you or anyone else, your proof of this would be nice though since you've apparently dreamt it up. Do I respond to someone being snarky with me with a snarky response? Sure. One good turn deserves another, right? Do I initiate it though? Nope. You call it like I started the anti-Turner stuff. Whereas I call it as wasn't everything I said about Turner true? At least to this point? That's not "anti-", that's just stepping out on a limb and calling it like you see it regardless of who's unfortunately on your favorite team. Hey, I can't help you adamantly suggested he was going to be what this team was lacking the most - "a closer". And a star. The irony here is deep. Your sweeping generalizations are in fact quite unnecessarily rude and disrespectful, and not really on point. But carry on though... Charlie H reply to bebopdeluxe on Jul 12 at 23:29 Reply +/- Can you recommend another forum? I used to go to the one on philly.com - I think you were a regular. I stopped because of the noisy ads and the clunky interface. Brian reply to bebopdeluxe on Jul 13 at 0:32 Reply +/- I find snarky comments more tolerable than bitchy comments answering the question no one has ever even thought of asking, "Whatever happened to that bebop guy?" sixerfan1220 on Jul 11 at 20:16 Reply +/- why did the pacers just give away collison @DraftExpress Indiana will acquire Ian Mahinmi (4-years, 16 million) in a sign and trade with Dallas. Darren Collison and Danhtay Jones go to Dallas. sixerfan1220 reply to sixerfan1220 on Jul 11 at 20:32 Reply +/- i guess this makes some sense @WojYahooNBA Indiana is pursuing a trade with Charlotte for restricted free agent point guard DJ Augustine, sources tell Y! Sports. tk76 on Jul 11 at 20:24 Reply +/- Who is their PG? sixerfan1220 reply to tk76 on Jul 11 at 20:25 Reply +/- george hill marcus on Jul 11 at 21:55 Reply +/- Listen people don't waste your time going back & forth with gosixers it really makes no sense. The only person who can get him to shut the hell up is Brian. Clearly tk76 made great points and said twice he hated the Spencer signing yet this idiot still ranting about bs. Some people are just pricks and can't help it. Stan reply to marcus on Jul 11 at 22:03 Reply +/- I find the back and forth arguments to be interesting. Sometimes I let the arguments drag on out of amusement. tk76 reply to marcus on Jul 12 at 4:54 Reply +/- I don't mind discussing things with GoSixers. I don't expect we will agree on everything and for the most part it remains civil. sfw on Jul 11 at 22:43 Reply +/- So much for an Iggy to Portland deal with Derrick Williams in return ............ http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8157984/source-portland-trail-blazers-minnesota-timberwolves-discussing-nicolas-batum-deal Stan reply to sfw on Jul 11 at 23:15 Reply +/- I hope those picks are lottery protected. Cin on Jul 11 at 23:18 Reply +/- Don't ever say Rod Thorn doesn't deliver. Meet your new, athletic shot-blocking center. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Darryl-Watkins-182/ Rich on Jul 11 at 23:25 Reply +/- Man, I'm watching Nova's Maalik Wayns play in the Summer League for Orlando and he looks pretty good. He's fantastic in the open court, which he can utilize more if he makes it to the NBA. Wouldn't mind the Sixers giving him a look. He seems to have much more potential than Xavier Silas. Brian on Jul 11 at 23:48 Reply +/- Just read Scola might be an amnesty casualty. He's plenty soft to join our front-court rotation. I believe the Sixers could bid a little over $2M on the amnesty wire. link. Brian on Jul 11 at 23:51 Reply +/- Oh, and the Kaman deal is really a perfect example of why you don't sign Spencer Hawes for 2 years. Kaman's one-year deal would've fit perfectly into the Sixers available cap space, and would've been off the books next summer, instead of lingering like a stale fart. Stan on Jul 11 at 23:59 Reply +/- Apparently the Mavericks had Sean Williams, Ian Mahimini, Yi Jianlin, Rudy Fernandez, Brandon Wright and Kellena Azhubike at some point on their roster last year. I like their creativity but I find it funny how none of those guys panned out. spiller27 reply to Stan on Jul 12 at 0:06 Reply +/- They liked Brandan Wright, I presume he'll be back with them next year. das411 on Jul 12 at 1:59 Reply +/- ....so once the circular firing squad is done, anybody have any idea who this darryl watkins fellow is and why we picked him up? Xsago on Jul 12 at 6:44 Reply +/- I gotta say i am with tk76, Rich and the others on the offseason situation so far. While i hate the Hawes signing, the general plan is quite obvious and fully in force. The most important thing i asked for was a well defined general direction and even though this direction may not be the smartest one, at least it is a strongly defined direction, something that we haven't seen from the Sixers in ages. The new CBA pretty much precludes the combination of superstars and the Sixers will be in position to be able to sign a max player in the next few seasons. I expect a lot of teams with multiple superstars to start rearranging their rosters and a lot of stars will hit the market after the new CBA shows its full effects (i believe it will start in year 3, or after year 3). Meanwhile having a functioning organization and team is essential. And Iguodala is 90% gone. There are two ways i can see him being traded: - for a young player with potential and cap relief - for a star/semi-star on an expiring deal (Josh Smith, Al Jefferson etc.) tk76 reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 8:26 Reply +/- Since Iggy only has 1-2 years left on his deal it really does not matter if they trade him now or not. The only reason to trade him is if they can get a valuable asset in return, or if they think clearing his contract a year or two earlier will help them acquire more assets or put Jrue/ET in a position where they truly sink or swim. Overall I am looking forward to net season. Not that I think they will be a better team, but that they will be a different enough team to be interesting- and that they seem committed to making significant changes moving forward. Also, my concerns about Collins being just another Larry Brown styled win now coach have been assuaged by their moves this summer. Brian reply to tk76 on Jul 12 at 8:46 Reply +/- I wonder if Memphis fans were talking about how they're building their team around Thabeet after his second season. Dollar Bill reply to tk76 on Jul 12 at 9:24 Reply +/- On #9: So much concern, so many words spent on a drone of a personality whose 8 yrs of "preeminence" have led the 76ers to a 300-340 record and a .469 winning percentage. Crazy. Absolutely crazy, the attachment of some to a funky attachment player. Please release him, let him go; I never loved him in the first place. Xsago on Jul 12 at 9:07 Reply +/- I am really intrigued about Brand to be honest. I wonder where he'll end up. If he ends up with the Mavericks as reported, i feel like he can help them quite a bit. A lot of people were laughing at the Mavericks after striking out almost completely this offseason, but in the end they might end up better than last year and a very dangerous team indeed. Collison and Brand could be two great additions at a very low price. Brian reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 9:12 Reply +/- The Mavs probably just need to maintain their cap room for next summer. They're the only "premier" destination with enough cap space to sign a max player. They'd have to find a taker for Marion to fit two max players (CP3 and Dwight, perhaps). Marion has a 15% trade kicker, huh? Xsago reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 9:19 Reply +/- Not sure anyone will be going for that many max contract type players next season to be honest. I think a lot of teams are thinking very short term this offseason. They will have a go next season and perhaps the one after that and that's it. I thinks every single team will be very reluctant to pay the needed luxury tax. A lot of teams will be selling very good players for nothing sooner rather than later IMO. Brian on Jul 12 at 9:19 Reply +/- Here's my trade of the day. Fits the "two years or less" model. Salaries work. Xsago reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 9:23 Reply +/- I'd do that in a second. The problem is the Suns have absolutely no interest in trading Gortat away. He is their best player. We've been on Gortat for a while but i haven't heard a single rumour about him being on the trading block or anything. Other than that i would like to see what he can do without Nash. Rich reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 9:24 Reply +/- Not sure why Phoenix does it, unless their bullish on Turner. Brian reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 9:35 Reply +/- 3 years, $10M for Gerald Green. Brian reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 9:37 Reply +/- Wasn't meant to be a reply above. In response, if the #2 pick from two years ago doesn't hold value for a team in the middle of a complete rebuild, maybe I'm not unfairly down on him. Jay reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 10:08 Reply +/- Brian, When did you start getting SO down on Turner. You certainly weren't like this during the playoffs or the season. You were, I'd say, fair. But now you talk about him like he's Hawes. My pop-psychology is that one of two things happened: 1. You are lashing out at the idea of them trading the guy you like a lot more in Iguodala to "make way for Turner". 2. More likely, you took a step back after the season and decided the stats didn't back up your compliments for Turner. But it's just very abrupt/jarring to read this constant attacking of Turner. I mean all you had to do during the playoffs was read a game thread for 2 minutes and one could instantly see your dislike for Hawes. But even in the 6-22 game, you complimented Turner. Brian reply to Jay on Jul 12 at 10:37 Reply +/- I didn't really talk a whole lot about Turner's future during the season or the playoffs beyond being impressed by his three good games. There wasn't really a point to it. As the season wore on, and he was given more and more opportunities, though, it became apparent that he is what he is. An extremely inefficient offensive player. The more chances he got, the more apparent it became that he's extremely overmatched against athletic defenders and the only way he's going to become an efficient scorer is if his jumper goes from being disgustingly useless to great. I don't see that happening. I didn't really see the point in ripping him in the playoffs, because they didn't have a better option on the bench (whereas Hawes sucking ass was maddening because Lavoy was playing better and sitting on the bench). I held out hope probably too long w/ Turner, he just is what he is. And the worst thing about him is that he's not on a cheap rookie contract, he's making legit money to suck. Jay reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 10:52 Reply +/- Ok, That provides a lot of context. Two replies: 1. Suck seems so strong - you don't think the well above average rebounding and the slightly above average defending mitigates that? 2. You don't see his ability to get by defenders as knocking out the easy part and now he just has to finish or get more foul calls from refs now that he's not a rookie as easier? Or at least evidence of his athletic ability? Brian reply to Jay on Jul 12 at 10:57 Reply +/- The rebounding is a nice to have from a SG or SF, but it's kind of like having a center who passes well but doesn't have the requisite skills to play the position. Tits on a bull. He's got a good handle as well, but he's got no explosion and he puts his head down when he drives. Getting in the lane is great, but when you're the focus of the offense (which he needs to be) and you can't (a) blow by your man and/or (b) finish OVER help defenders, you just wind up getting a bunch of your shots blocked and dribbling yourself into double and triple teams. Xsago reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 10:09 Reply +/- Whether you are fairly or unfairly down on Turner is not really the point. A rebuilding team keeps his young promising players. There is no way they are trading away Gortat IMO unless they are getting back a young guy who has the potential to become top 10 player in the league. GoSixers reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 10:36 Reply +/- Promising is the key word in your statement there, and it can be argued that Evan Turner hasn't shown much promise in his two years...aside from rebounding, a skill vital for a starting two guard, he hasn't shown much promise, in my opinion. So if one feels he's not promising, there's no reason to value him Brian reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 10:41 Reply +/- I think you're calling Gortat a young promising player here. Gortat is 20 days younger than Iguodala. Stan reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 10:55 Reply +/- Here's my trade of the century: It improves the team by 2 games http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=73wlrqd Brian reply to Stan on Jul 12 at 10:59 Reply +/- No way I'm trading Watkins. GoSixers reply to Stan on Jul 12 at 10:59 Reply +/- Man - you really want brian to shut this down. Cousins and Hawes on the same team? Rich on Jul 12 at 10:43 Reply +/- Anybody think we have a pick and dive big man on the roster? Even if they aren't any good at it, that should be a mandate from Collins to Lavoy/Voose from day one of training camp. Moultrie too. That's the major reason I didnt want Hawes back. His style of play makes it impossible to properly evaluate Jrue and even Turner when it comes to running those sets. Hawes turns a pick and roll into an iso with his shitty fake screens and run to get to his own spots. Brian reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 10:45 Reply +/- Don't think Voose can do it. Allen, maybe. He and Jrue ran a couple of nice plays last season in the playoffs where Lavoy actually rolled to the hoop, caught the pass and dunked the ball. I was shocked. Rich reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 10:54 Reply +/- I think Voose can do it. He's not athletic but he seems willing at times. With shooters at the three point line, it should be easier in theory. Still, just setting a solid screen and rolling would be nice. A Jrue- Young-Wright-Iguodala-Allen lineup would have serious options on offense. Just once, I'd like to see the Sixers have a lineup where the other team had to pick their poison. Brian reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 11:01 Reply +/- Is that Nick Young or Thad? Having a legit stretch four would've opened things up greatly for the guys on the perimeter. Still pissed they didn't go after Ilyasova or Anderson. GoSixers reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 11:04 Reply +/- Having a legit four would be nice - don't you think? Rich reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 11:06 Reply +/- Nick Young. Have to do some hiding on defense with him but you have 4 other capable guy is Iguodala or Wright can handle the 4. Xsago reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 10:50 Reply +/- Moultrie projects to be good in that area. We'll see. I don't think the roster is set yet though. Especially up front. Rodney Buford on Jul 12 at 11:07 Reply +/- I didn't see anything on the blog about the ESPN NY rumors of a Thad Young for Kris Humphries S&T. What contract would you take with Humphries in return for the Nets taking on Thad's? GoSixers reply to Rodney Buford on Jul 12 at 11:11 Reply +/- Sure, but why does it make sense for the Nets? Unless humphries is asking an outrageous sum of money, they would be better of paying him after they grossly over paid the fragile Lopez. For all the mockery Mr Kardashian gets, he's a solid player who is the right size for an actual position, unlike Thad. Other reports are that the nets are 'aggressively' shopping brooks, sixers should get him as well in this scenario Rodney Buford reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 11:14 Reply +/- Humphries is ideal next to Lopez so I wasn't sure what the Nets slant was, unless Orlando wanted Thad as a piece for Howard. I think they have 3 days to trade Brook now - although "all talks are off". GoSixers reply to Rodney Buford on Jul 12 at 11:18 Reply +/- I believe the Howard to New Jersey talks are deader than Joe Paterno's PSU Legacy (too soon?), Lopez signing that deal just put the kibosh on it, it removed all maneuverability, for months (January, not december, not sure why it's January now), but I think Orlando wants this done sooner rather than later, no matter what they say, if it were me, I woudln't hire a coach until I dumped Dwight. I'd talk to Houston and LA and get what I could...cause Dwight isn't going to make it easy, and he's already made it close to impossible. Is the ESPN NY a real rumor or just a writer/radio guy saying 'this is a good idea'? Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 11:24 Reply +/- Young + Lopez would be a disaster. Those two would get out rebounded by point guards. Dollar Bill reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 11:30 Reply +/- Joe Paterno's 61 yr PSU legacy (was hired as an ass't by Rip Engle in 1950) isn't dead; however, it is accurate to say that it's currently under significant revision. Brian reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 12 at 11:31 Reply +/- This isn't the place for this debate, but I'd say turning a blind eye for 13+ years to that kind of monstrous behavior kills a legacy. Dollar Bill reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 12:16 Reply +/- Only if one CHOOSES to "kill" and abbreviate the man and his myriad positive contributions. I'm not defending the indefensible but his legacy is his COMPLETE story, not just an important segment of an updated edition. ItAintEZ reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 12 at 12:21 Reply +/- Yea, he turned a blind eye while innocent kids got raped,but hell of a coach. What a legacy Dollar Bill reply to ItAintEZ on Jul 12 at 12:24 Reply +/- Learn to read. Brian reply to Rodney Buford on Jul 12 at 11:26 Reply +/- I haven't seen the rumor, but if it's a deal where they get Humphries on a two-year deal, then I'm in favor of it. Xsago on Jul 12 at 11:07 Reply +/- Stretch 4s like Ilyasova and Anderson are a luxury not a foundation of a team. They make sense if you have a dominant low post threat or a dominant penetrating wing. The Sixers have neither. No need to completely destroy your cap situation by giving them the long term close to 10 million a year deals they got. They got overpaid too. Rich reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 11:14 Reply +/- In general, I agree with this even though I think they are highly dependent on a big man. Antawn Jamison didn't really work in Cleveland wit that dominant wing. Brian reply to Rich on Jul 12 at 11:23 Reply +/- The general theory behind the Sixers entire offense is using bigs taking 18-footers to open the lane. Having a big who's hitting 23-footers instead should open the lane more, no? And I wouldn't have a problem w/ either of their contracts, honestly. I'd prefer both of them to Thad's deal. IMO, Thad is more of a luxury than a four who actually rebounds and can legitimately stretch the floor. Xsago reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 11:28 Reply +/- You musn't forget that Anderson for example is disaster o the defensive end and Ilyasova was in a contract year. He wasn't close to that good previously. Brian reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 11:34 Reply +/- I'm not sure which stats should count. In Turner's case, I should believe he's better than his numbers. In Ilyasova's, he's worse because it was a contract year. Tell you what, I'll take Ilyasova's production from any of his 2nd-4th seasons over Thad's for pretty much the same money. And in Anderson's case, he scores enough and efficiently enough to make up for the defense. Which is more than I can say for the defensive sieves we currently have in the front court. Brian reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 11:36 Reply +/- That being said, I can understand why they didn't want either of those guys on a four-year deal. If I was making the decisions, I would've grabbed one of them, but I'm not going to kill the FO for passing on them, depending on the remaining moves. Xsago reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 11:42 Reply +/- I've read stuff about Ilyasova's motor over the years which is why i think contract year was important. I am not comparing their situation with Turner at all, never mentioned him in fact. Turner has been pretty bad statistically in his first 2 years. People think he is better than what his stats show because of use and fit with the rest of the roster. Unlike him, Anderson has been in a perfect situation from a fit standpoint next to Howard. He won't be as efficient without him, as evidenced by his complete disappearance in the playoffs. GoSixers reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 11:46 Reply +/- No one said you mentioned Turner, they just used Turner in comparison to point out that what matters to you isn't consistent - it seems that what is relevant to you in player evaluation changes depending on the point you're trying to make - that seemed pretty clear to me. Xsago reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:20 Reply +/- When have i changed my stance of a player depending on the point i am trying to make? That's your forte, don't mix things up. GoSixers reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 12:23 Reply +/- When have you misunderstood what someone writes? Repeatedly. That's not what I said. I said what MATTERS to you in regards to a player seems to change to fit the stance you want to take - and that was Brians point - you ignored things in one player (Turner) to make a point and brought them up for another player - if they matter for one they matter for all - or they don't matter at all... I often write that off to English not being your first language, but maybe it's something deeper Xsago reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:27 Reply +/- I take everything into account when i evaluate every single player. Stats, eye-test, on court, off court behaviour, fit... everything. And i always right what i think. You attacked me of changing what is important to me without naming the reason. What did i ignore about Turner that i brought up about another player? Xsago reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 12:32 Reply +/- Jesus, what a typo. *write Xsago reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 11:34 Reply +/- Oh and Anderson is not a much better defensive rebounder than Thad. He is a better offensive rebounder though. Brian reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 11:40 Reply +/- I'm mostly talking about whether I would've added them to the current roster, but if it's a question of either Thad or one of those guys, then it's the other guys without question. Xsago reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 11:47 Reply +/- I think they have different skillsets but similar in terms of talent overall. It all depends on the rest of the team, about who i'd prefer. With Thad under contract though, i don't want them. There is place of only one guy like that on a team. Rich reply to Xsago on Jul 12 at 15:51 Reply +/- I think the main point is that Thad is probably a luxury at this stage so they should be very open to trading him for a big with a shorter contract. emtmess on Jul 12 at 11:42 Reply +/- As far as Turner goes I am at the point where I wish we had pick Cousins or Favors. That being said there still is some hope for Turner. There have been several players in the last decade who have struggled there first year or two but have become average to above average players some of whom where key players on playoff and championship teams. Now they are not identical players to Turner but some of there basic stats and advanced stats are similar. There improvement seem to stem from being able to make mistakes and learn from them. Not saying Turner will just that I am sure there was a similar frustration with there fan bases at the time. Brian reply to emtmess on Jul 12 at 11:45 Reply +/- There aren't a lot of guys who have been this bad in their first two seasons offensively. I don't mean a lot of guys who turned out to be good players, I mean too many guys period who have played this many minutes and been this bad offensively. Here's the list since Y2K. emtmess reply to Brian on Jul 12 at 14:59 Reply +/- I am sorry I am not that well versed in OWS. What I had looked at was is just FG% initially. After seeing your list I looked at some other stats. Here is some of the list. For FG%:Rodney Stuckey, John Wall, J.R. Smith, Joe Johnson, Mickael Pietrus, Russle Westbrook, Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis, Mo Williams, Jason Terry, Ben Gordon, Louis Williams, Kyle Lowry, Mike Conely, Jrue Holiday, O.J. Mayo, Richard Hamilton, Nick Young. For TS%:Eric Maynor, Jordan Crawford, Dahntay Jones, Jannero Pargo, Willie Green, Kemba Walker, DeShawn Stevenson,Shaun Livingston For eFG%: Jerryd Bayless, John Wall,James Posey,Shaun Livingston,Jordan Crawford, Dahntay Jones, DeShawn Livingston. Couple of things I got from this. Turner is not a doomed to be a below average player though he may become that. He could be a useful player. He does not seem like a player that should be a major part of the teams future plans but more of a decent sixth or seventh player off the bench. Buke reply to emtmess on Jul 12 at 17:44 Reply +/- You're wasting your time. For some, "keeping and open mind" is a sign of indecisiveness. GoSixers reply to Buke on Jul 12 at 18:10 Reply +/- And for some people "keeping AN open mind" is the same as perpetual optimism in the face of overwhelming evidence So potato, potatoe emtmess reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 18:31 Reply +/- After two years it is not overwhelming evidence. It is substantial but not overwhelming.Turners likely hood of becoming a star is about as likely as Lavoy Allen becoming a star. The Likely hood of Turner becoming a player who can not contribute anything is about as slim. Turmer is not a player who you build around right know and does not look like he will become one. Turner is a rotational player who will contribute. I prefer not to claim the ability to see into the future without actually being able to do so. So each player and each move made by the team I look at with a open mind. For players I try look at floor vs ceiling and comparable players. I try and stop looking at where a player is drafted vs. what can the player provide for the team what can he do what can he bring back in a trade or as part of a trade. As far as team moves go I look at different possibilities with the individual move are possible. buke reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 20:21 Reply +/- Wonder what Amazon's profitability numbers were after two years? spiller27 reply to buke on Jul 12 at 20:31 Reply +/- Or Chauncey Billups, who shot 37% from the field his first 2 years. Or Russell Westbrook, who shot 41% from the field his first 2 years (and 25% from three) GoSixers reply to emtmess on Jul 12 at 11:47 Reply +/- Demarcus Cousins talent and upside were the best in his draft - I would have preferred him drafted for a lot of reasons (not the least of which is Brians daily game evaluations would be so much funnier) and if Doug Collins really is this 'great players coach' that people rave about (you know, history not withstanding) then the sixers shouldn't ahve been scared off by his 'questions' because Doug would have worked em out. I like Cousins, i don't think he's irredeemable, and after two seasons I'd rather have him than John Wall on my team. RockP reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:27 Reply +/- Collins wanted Cousins, but Stefanski wanted Turner. GoSixers reply to RockP on Jul 12 at 12:30 Reply +/- I thought Collins wanted Favors, no one wanted Cousins on the sixers? Though I've been called a liar about it - purely on basketball talent I wanted Cousins...I knew it wasn't going to happen though, and thus picked Turner as the better 'immediate' option - that was a mistake RockP reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:36 Reply +/- One of the 76ers beat writers referred to Collins wanting Cousins over Turner, read it earlier this week. Forgot which beat writer. Brian reply to RockP on Jul 12 at 12:37 Reply +/- Everything I read prior to and since the draft was Collins wanted Favors. Think he also liked Wes Johnson over Turner as well. Which is pretty much a coin flip so far. GoSixers reply to RockP on Jul 12 at 12:37 Reply +/- I hadn't seen that - the stuff that's been reported previously was that he wanted Favors, but if he wanted Cousins, I think that's good...still don't like him as a coach, still don't think a coach should be making roster decisions (as this off season indicates to me) but that's a plus in his column...one of the few Dollar Bill reply to RockP on Jul 12 at 12:40 Reply +/- I remember Collins before draft speaking favorably of Favors but especially highly of Wes Johnson. Don't recall his public comments on Cousins, if any occurred. thewhettingstone reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 12 at 14:02 Reply +/- The never-ending debate of who Collins wanted instead of ET. This is how I remember it too. Collins loved him some Wes "Pure Shooting Guard Who Runs Without The Ball" Johnson. GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:24 Reply +/- Sixer Nation (Philadelphia, PA), Help us out here? We're confused John Hollinger Not sure I can help you much. It appears Philly didn't really go into this offseason with a plan, saw a shiny object and said "hey, Nick Young!". The Brand amnesty was definitely done off the cuff, because otherwise they would have done it July 1 and gone after bigger fry. I commend the addition of shooting in Young and DWright, but that doesn't even remotely offset losing Brand and Lou Williams. MCT reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:26 Reply +/- ha, just posted the same thing GoSixers reply to MCT on Jul 12 at 12:28 Reply +/- Gabe (NJ) When will you stop killing Sixers for Lavoy Allen's first contract? It's a minor thing. John Hollinger A) it's a move no other team makes. Ever. B) It forced the Brand amnesty because they couldn't sign Nick Young with the midlevel exception. ItAintEZ reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:31 Reply +/- I understand the thinking here but I think either way Brand had to go to give more minutes to our younger "bigs". GoSixers reply to ItAintEZ on Jul 12 at 12:35 Reply +/- Well, I'm not disgareeing that Brand should have been amnesty'd - I don't think anyone disputes that - it's the fact that the sixers screwed themselves stupidly into HAVING to do it because of mistakes with Lavoy Allen, Spencer Hawes and wanting Nick YOung. Though giving minutes to the 'bigs' as you call them isn't the reason as I see it - the reason is that the sixers needed to try and be players this off season - the amnesty should have been made public on day one so they could talk to real free agents - not Nick Young ItAintEZ reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:41 Reply +/- Well I am sure that agents weren't hanging up on them and saying "call us back when you publicly dump Brand." I am still not sure it matters because I don't think their plan, right or wrong, included making any kind of big long term splash this offseason. MCT on Jul 12 at 12:25 Reply +/- Brian - it looks like Hollinger agree's with your theory that the Brand amnesty wasn't planned: Sixer Nation (Philadelphia, PA) Help us out here? We're confused John Hollinger (12:22 PM) Not sure I can help you much. It appears Philly didn't really go into this offseason with a plan, saw a shiny object and said "hey, Nick Young!". The Brand amnesty was definitely done off the cuff, because otherwise they would have done it July 1 and gone after bigger fry. I commend the addition of shooting in Young and DWright, but that doesn't even remotely offset losing Brand and Lou Williams. GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:32 Reply +/- Hollinger sixer heavy today Chris (Philly) Will the Sixers trade Iguodala this offseason and who might they get in return? John Hollinger I still think it's a possibility, yes, but it's a difficult contract to fit into a deal and I'm not sure what they'd be after in return. I'm not sure they know either. Evan Turner (Philly) What's going on around here? Why are all these guys who are mysteriously my size and with similar ability showing up? Am I on my way out? John Hollinger I think Iguodala is a much more likely trade option, since he and Doug have an icy relationship and he makes so much dough. Also, the Sixers are still under the mistaken impression that Turner is good. Course, Hollinger is probably just a hater, with an axe to grind, not an unbiased observer whose personal caring about the sixers is nil. The Six reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:39 Reply +/- I don't label Hollinger as a "hater". I'm just sick of ESPN analysts (pick your sport) condemning guys two years into their careers (or less time). Everything is a fucking certainty with ESPN. Everything. GoSixers reply to The Six on Jul 12 at 12:40 Reply +/- So - if you agreed with him about turner - would you still be this angry about it? The Six reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:49 Reply +/- 1) I'm not angry at all about what he says. Believe it or not, I have more important things in my life than worrying about what John Hollinger thinks about Evan Turner. 2) I don't agree with him. 3) I don't put as much stock in Hollinger as you do. I think he does stats well, and there is some credence to that. But I don't have a high level of respect for ESPN analysts on any sport. MCT reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:41 Reply +/- I think a legitimate sports analyst would need to do three things to offer a valid opinion on a player: 1. watch the player many times over the course of a season; 2. break down tape of said player; AND 3. analyze the player's statistics. Hollinger only does #3. I'm not even disagreeing with his assessment of Turner, but he is still full of shit nonetheless. GoSixers reply to MCT on Jul 12 at 12:43 Reply +/- And how do you know HOlllinger only does 3? You have no idea what hollinger does and doesn't do You just disagree with his opinion vehemently so you have to cast aspersions towards the source of the opinion. Keep in mind, that outside the sixer organization and deluded fan base, most people agree with Hollingers assessment about Turner MCT reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:45 Reply +/- Did you miss this part? "I'm not even disagreeing with his assessment of Turner, but he is still full of shit nonetheless." I agree with him that Evan Turner is not good, currently. But I think it's pretty obvious that the national media do not watch our beloved Sixers on a regular basis. Case in point - they all raved about Hawes start last season even though we all knew it was fool's gold. GoSixers reply to MCT on Jul 12 at 12:49 Reply +/- Hollinger has access to footage you couldn't hope to have access to - he has access to analysis and video and statistical tools you couldn't hope to have access too - you thik cause you watch the games on television you know more than hollinger does? If he cares too, hollinger has access to isolated video of every play every sixer has made the past few seasons, ESPN owns stats inc I think...whether or not you agree with him is irrelevant...the fact that you presume to know what he does and doesn't do and then say he's 'full of shit' means whether or not you agree with him is irrelevant to me...the point is - you think he's full of shit - and nothing personal - his evaluation holds more weight than almost everyone who posts here save one or two people...and one of them isn't even a person I like very much. No offense, but John Hollinger is paid to watch the NBA for a living - you and I watch games on TV or at the stadium (at which point you see eve less because you can't pause a damn thing to see what's going on) and you somehow think his opinion doesn't mean shit. Well if it doesn't - then neither does anyone elses who posts here right? MCT reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 12:54 Reply +/- He doesn't have enough time in the day to watch this secret footage on every goddamn player in the league. He doesn't even have enough time to watch this footage on a fraction of the players in the league. You think he spends what time he does have on Evan fucking Turner? Over LeBron, Kobe, etc.? Yes I think I know more about the Sixers than John Hollinger. Alot of people get paid to do things for television stations and they have no business being there. Just look at all the "experts" they bring in on the cable news networks. Hollinger was hired because he is a very smart statistician and stats play a significant part in sports analysis. Key word is "part". It's the only part that he has any more knowledge on than the rest of us. His basketball knowledge outside of stats is fucking garbage. Just because you think he is super neat doesn't really mean anything. buke reply to MCT on Jul 12 at 20:41 Reply +/- My guess is that you are probably correct. MCT reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 13:07 Reply +/- also, profanity is not directed at you, I tend to curse alot when i talk / type GoSixers reply to MCT on Jul 12 at 13:25 Reply +/- It's really alright, I don't care if you curse a lot, I mean, I don't curse a lot but I have a large vocabulary The Six reply to GoSixers on Jul 12 at 13:37 Reply +/- "I don't curse a lot but I have a large vocabulary"...that's perfect. Yes, and you are very intelligent as well. How could we all forget when you keep telling us?