DFDepressed FanDepressed Fan

All  

Sixers

, all the time

If You're Doing It, Do It Right

I'm probably one of the most pro-Turner posters here, but this trade makes too much sense to not do it. To get the starting PF and the backup point guard while saving salary is as good a deal as I've heard all off-season.

Except Dallas stealing Collison from Indiana

I forgot to add, Harkless and Moultrie and any draft picks in the next two seasons would be the only salaries currently against the cap in 2014-2015. If they extend Jrue, he'll be there, and Davis would be a restricted free agent with a decent qualifying offer.

And right now I'd say there's a 50/50 shot they don't have that first round pick in the 13 draft

That is officially the STUPIDEST trade proposal I have ever heard of .. I agree that thad young should be moved.. But for a quality big man .
But EVAN TURNER and thad for Ed Davis and Calderon? Pshhhhhhhh that would be the most lopsided trade in league history . Lmfao I have a feeling your a raptors fan.

So, what you're saying is you didn't actually read what he wrote.

It's primarily a financial move (it has the added benefit of making Evan Turner someone elses problems) it reduces the name of 6'7 wings who aren't great on the sixers roster and gets a guy on a rookie deal who fills a need.

The problem of course is that the sixers think more like you and feel Evan Turner is a guy to build around.

It's not lopsided at all, if one pays attention to the purpose of the deal, not to mention it isn't even close to the most lopsided deal this week (Indiana got sucked into that) let alone league history.

user-pic
Counterpoint reply to Matt g on Jul 13 at 10:52
+/-

No YOUR a Rapters fan!@!!!!!!!!

From what I have read, Ed Davis is not worth going after. Not a potential starter.

IMO, Thad can be traded at any time. ET has very little value (think Morrison/Darko/Thabeet/Beasley) so I', not in a rush to move him either. I'd rather keep ET and hope he surprises us. If not then he can eventually be a decent bench player.

Now if someone actually offers value for Thad or ET then jump at it. But trading both away for essentially nothing is premature given they can do that next year if need be.

Same thing with Iggy. He has 2 years and is a good player. So since the Sixers are not making any big waves then keep him around unless someone really gives you value or unless you really think he will in some way hold the team back (which is bullocks.)

He fills a void that the sixers have, with upside, while Evan Turner is an extra piece who has not really shown he's a potential starter yet either...but the sixers have tons of wing players (and they're much easier to find than power forwards)

Ed Davis isn't worth going after, but neither is Evan Turner, Davis at least makes less money and Calderon expires this season.

These aren't moves made to make the team better, they are moves mde to improve the financial picture sooner.

Which is the argument used (partially) to justify the god awful Hawes signing - it doesn't relaly hurt the financial picture.

I'm fine with these deals...course, they wouldn't be needed if the team had been smarter starting about 8 months ago.

It's not like there's a move to be made that's going to make them a serious anything in the next 2 years.

Of course the fans who revel in the mediocrity or delusion that Evan Turner is going to be a super star might be upset, but this is a salary dump trade

Two things: First, Davis has been twice the player Turner has through their first two seasons, and that's not an exaggeration. Plus, he plays a position they need help at. Second: Are you sure Thad's going to be easy to move? Especially when the cap gets much tighter? And are you going to be able to move him for cap space, if that's the goal?

In terms of this season, I do think this trade makes them a better team, which is supposedly the secondary goal of the summer.

Yeah, I don't think it makes them a better team on the court next season, assuming Thad last year wasn't a fluke but his natural progression, and I like Calderon but it takes away a player who plays to the offensive 'strength' of the sixers...and adds a defensive liability (more of one) in Calderon.

But since next season is a lost cause anyway in my mind, and being in the lottery means keeping the pick, that doesn't matter to me...it's a smart deal assuming that they do have a 2 year plan in the way you think of it, I think their 2 year plan is about extending Jrue and Turner and still not paying the tax, not about being free agency players, like ever, cause since no one really wants to sign in Philadlephia, you shouldn't try to get them

Clearing cap space so you can afford to extend Turner...man, that's dark.

Evan Turner is the future of this franchise, he's just held back by Andre Iguodala, Jrue Holiday, other players playing defense on him, Doug Collins hurting his feelings, the need to get his rims updated, playing in the big 10, not being athletic enough, being a terrible shooter.

So stop being a hater

user-pic
tk76 reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 10:55
+/-

No I'm not sure. But I'm relative;;y confident given that both players are only 24 that you can move them (or in Turner's case cut him) without much problem.

Calderon is an expiring, so basically nothing. So you are essentially trading Thad and ET for nothing and Davis. I think Davis is a fringe bench player long term- so not the guy you trade for unless you think Thad has negative value.

ET does not have negative value, since you can simply refuse to pick up his team option at any time. So really, it comes down to whether or not you think Ed Davis will be a good player in the NBA. And again, most of what of I have read says he has shown nothing.

See, this is the disconnect for me. To you, Thad is a guy you can move any time. Right now his contract is pretty much in line w/ Anderson and Ilyasovic, but he isn't as good as those guys. But signing them would've hamstrung the Sixers with long contracts.

Also, Davis has played almost identical minutes to Turner through their first two seasons, but he's produced, costs much less, he's a year younger than Turner and he plays a position of need. I don't get how swapping Turner for a better player in a position you need help at is trading them away for nothing. Also don't understand why you think Davis is a fringe bench player when he's already been more than that in his first two seasons w/ efficient scoring and solid rebounding?

user-pic
tk76 reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 11:15
+/-

I really have no personal opinion on Ed Davis since I have not watched him play. I just have not heard good things- but I could be getting the wrong info.

Again, my take is that ET is worth nothing and costs you nothing (is an expiring with team options.) So I'm fine with seeing if he improves. As for Thad, I agree that his contract is 1-2 years out of step with the Sixers plans. But I don't agree that Ilyasova or Anderson would be good signings for the Sixers. Those guys are the definition of the type of high salary non-stars that hold you back. But then again, Thad looks like he might be in that same conversation.

But I still think Thad is tradeable for more than Davis- but maybe that's the best he gets you?

user-pic
buke reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 15:18
+/-

Not sure Thad can be traded "at any time" and classifying Turner with Thabeet and Morrison is really stretching it. (Then again, so is throwing Beasley in that pot).

I like this proposed trade but I don't see it happening after the Kwame signing. Also, having Calderon as a backup point guard seems like a bit of a waste. I think they will sign a low cost backup free agent point guard (maybe like a Jonny Flynn or an Ish Smith) within the near horizon unless they do make a trade for one.

Calderon as a back up onit guard is secondary to his contract going bye bye after next season...it gets money off the cap sooner than Thad does.

Also, if a team loses their point guard, you've got an asset in your pocket, a pretty good offensive point guard a team could use with an expiring contract, that can be parlayed into something during the season possibly.

I get the 'back up point guard' argument that Brian used - just was the least important part of the trade to me :)

user-pic
tk76 reply to buke on Jul 13 at 15:24
+/-

Don't misunderstand. I am not saying ET is an outright bust like those guys (at least not yet.) I am saying Turner's value league wide is probably similar to thiose other high picks when they were struggling after a few seasons. This is because ET will have a relatively big contract (2yrs/12M) and a huge cap hold after that. It makes him a less attractive asset unless teams are sold that he is worth the money.

If ET had been a #12 pick and slotted to make 2yrs/5M then teams would be more eager to trade for him. But as it stands, he needs o establish himself as a good player before he will have any value in the trade market.

user-pic
buke reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 15:46
+/-

OK, the clarification makes sense and that assessment seems fair.

Still think Thad won't be too easy to trade, though, and the best chance for a trade involving him might come in combination with another player.

One of the reasons I was relieved that Lou wasn't resigned (in addition to becoming tired of his game after multiple years) is that the Sixers at least showed for once that they were able to break a habit of overvaluing their own homegrown players with unnecessarily pricey long-term contracts. First Dalembert, then Iguodala, then Thad. We saw what Lou received (and notice that he was fairly quick to take it instead of holding out for more) and it was well below what he seemed to expect from the Sixers. Had they done the same thing with Thad, he might be playing here or somewhere else for about 2 million a year less than he makes now.

In contrast to these signings we saw the two veterans acquired in the Iverson trade being given comparatively little regard by the Sixers front office. Depending upon one's view, Andre Miller might have been the team MVP in the two and a half years he played here and Joe Smith was pretty productive in his half season. The didn't seem to consider resigning Joe Smith for any amount or time period and the didn't give Miller a serious offer.

Riddle me this:

Lou Williams: 25 years old, 4 yrs/20M
George Hille: 26 years old, 5 yrs/40M

http://bkref.com/tiny/wQeZi

Starter/bench player. Hill is also a two-way player. I think he's worth more, not twice as much, though.

In defense of Lou, I guess, there's a report out there he took less money to go to Atlanta than was being offered by Golden State.

user-pic
tk76 reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 11:00
+/-

Hill is a better defender, but Hill can't do what Lou does in terms of drawing fouls and creating his own offense. And I don't see Hill as a starter- he is very much an undersized scoring guard and not a PG.

I think Hill just seems "younger" since he has not been in the league near;y as long as Lou. But personally, I think Lou is the better player- or at least even. Lou also has a track record of improvement and building on his game. I think Lou will continue to grow as a scorer, although he never will be a defender.

Good for him. Guys that take a cut to play for their hometown/original team have a special place in my heart.

I'm glad you think that, somehow I think Lou's motivation had more to do with being a starter on a crappy team than a back up on a crappy team

Hmmn. Are they going to start a backcourt of Teague and Lou? That's really small.

Well he's more likely to start in Atlanta than GSW you have to think - I mean who is his competition in Atl?

Something from a stein article on ESPN.com this morning - Raptors are looking to 'accommodate' Calderon

The Raptors, sources say, are open to a trade but want to send Calderon to a team with salary-cap space that can absorb the Spaniard's $10.6 million salary, thereby creating a trade exception for Toronto and giving them added financial flexibility for further moves.

Devin Harris - right?

You would've loved all-time NBA great Paul Arizin then. He stayed in the Philadelphia area and played for the Camden Bullets of the Eastern Basketball League rather than transfer with the Warriors to San Francisco and uproot his young family. Still had game then too (at 33); final Warriors season: 22.1/6.8/2.6. Was EBL MVP and "ROY" in '62-'63, played another two leading seasons for Camden, then retired. Patented jump shot, good hang time, variety of moves, great competitor, class act. Voted one of NBA's Top 50 Players in '96.

I would consider this trade unrealistic for the 76ers. They simply aren't going to trade him until at least after this season. I'm not against bringing in someone that fills a need for in exchange for a superfluous part, like Turner, but in all reality that's not going to happen, at least not yet.

If it's a rebuild...

Raptors Get: Andre Iguodala
76ers Get: Jose Calderon, James Johnson, Ed Davis

The 76ers can decline team options for both Davis and Turner, as well as not extend Johnson a qualifying offer. With Iguodala out, and all the wins he adds replaced with all the losses Turner would provide, they would probably be guaranteed to cash in on their lottery ticket this season. If they focus on rebuilding, then they can go for another lottery year in 2013-2014, have another year to potentially move Thad and free up even more cap space when Hawes comes off the books (ugh, how I loathe to type that), and send two second round picks Miami's way.

Wonder if that means they'll amnesty him if they don't find a taker by the deadline willing to absorb him into cap space. I do think he'd help the team this year.

I mean sure he'd help - offensively - he'd be the best point guard (pure) the sixers have had since, um, since, um, oh a long long time.

Hell when he was a free agent I wanted the sixers to go after him...

The Raptors don't seem in interested in paying him if he isn't playing for them (sunk costs are annoying in canada, it's all looney up there) so they might hold on to him all season instead to try and find a taker during the season...

Plus, I'd pay serious money to see Calderon and Hawes defend the pick-and-roll together.

This was meant to be a reply to the comment above about TOR being willing to trade Calderon.

Don't think trading Iguodala in this deal really fits with the pattern, or the plan as a lot of people see it. Don't think being in the lottery is a goal for this coming season, though it probably should be.

No - see - they're trying to clear cap space in two years remember - if they're in the lottery they have to pay a dude - if they miss the lottery - miami pays the dude - ALL PART OF THE PLAN

Dibaolical

I'm kind of going off Aron's comment of Iguodala's value being about as high as it's ever going to get. As far as assets, it's basically him and Jrue, who isn't going anywhere as long as Collins is here.

There are those who believe that as long as Collins is here Iguodala won't be going anywhere because Collins loves him

Question for all those Pro Collins folks

The sixers front court players are currently

Moultrie
Allen
Vucevic
Hawes

Do any of you believe that this is a collection of names and talent that would make the great Doug Collins happy - or do you think he would want an improvement in the front court.

How do you think he could get that front court improvement if he isn't willing to give up Iguodala?

I have no idea. TK76's theory is that he wants bigs who play on the perimeter, which fits with this collection. Logic would tell me that he's a good coach and realizes you can't have a bunch of cupcakes up front. I think from his interactions w/ the guys and the playing time he doles out, he liked Lavoy and Hawes. Didn't like Vucevic so much as the season wore on. No idea w/ Moultrie. You have to add Thad in there, as well.

The big question is whether Lavoy will be able to guard the post. Brand was their only option in the post on the defensive end, and he did a really good job. Lavoy is the only one who has a prayer currently on the roster.

No idea who they could get for Iguodala that would shore up the front court rotation. Collins would probably love Al Jefferson on the offensive end, mostly because he never turns the ball over, but not sure why Utah would trade for AI9 now. What other names are really out there?

TK, chime in if I didn't sum up your theory here, I think that's what you were saying yesterday.

user-pic
tk76 reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 12:17
+/-

Yeah, that's about right. I don't like that approach... and Ryan Anderson or Ilyasova seeming would have been the perfect fit for that approach.

I'm still in awe that the Sixers can field a good defense with such softness up front- and I think it sort of caught up with hem in the end.

I think Moultre has long term potential to fit both as a shooter and dunker- but you should never expect squat from a rookie. Hawes is a bum. Lavoy is a solid role player. Thad will get lots of minutes and it would serve the team to get a more legit defensive center to help hide Thad's weaknesses.

I do expect Thad to come back bigger this year. He was told last off-season that he would play more wing, so him trimmed down and was never able to bulk back up. But I expect this summer he will hit the gym and come back big enough to where he at least does not wear down so completely.

Yeah, I left Thad out on purpose, tweeners just get on my nerves :)

And do you think collins really wants to start thaddeus young between Hwes and Iguodala?

user-pic
sfw reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 12:11
+/-

I think they'd love to trade thad for a traditional PF with a shorter contract. Maybe a Milsap(but that won't happen) or ????

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 12:11
+/-

"Will make him happy?"

Doug Collins is not Larry Brown incarnate. I am sure he hates the current front court, but he is not going to go all LB and start trading for Tyrone Hill and Borris Diaw. Collins seems to have a longer horizon than you are willing to admit.

In games Collins coaches to win (with mixed results as he is not the greatest in game coach.) But that does not mean he thinks so short term when he puts on his team tsar/overlord hat.

I'm not sure there's ample evidence to say he doesn't like Hawes as an NBA center. And I'm not just basing that on the fact they re-signed him.

Honestly - I'm going to say this - if the options were one year of a gimpy brand at center and two years of hawes - why not just keep brand for the year if the 'mediocre for another season or two' ship lollipop is the plan?

Renounce Hawes, sign Nick Young, keep Lavoy - don't have to 'rush' to amnesty brand...who is probably a maverick in about 5 hours

Whether or not I believe he has a longer horizon, he still thought two years of Spencer Hawes was a good idea, and you yourself say it's not.

So you think the roster as is makes Doug collins a happy camper?

What's telling for me is how topsy-turvy the rotation was for the season compared the playoffs, where there was a greater degree of rigidity in players' roles. Like you said, game he wants to win. The regular season looked like his version of practice time in retrospect.

did hawes play any 4 last year?

‏@BobCooney76
#Sixers looking for another big man, said Collins, preferably one who can start at center and then move Hawes to starting four spot.

Ok - let's assume for one brief moment that Coooney isn't either

1. High
B. Totally misinterpreting something

I'd like to see someone defend the idea of Spencer Hawes starting four

Holy crap.

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 12:30
+/-

I'd like to see someone defend anything in regards to Spencer Hawes playing basketball.

There are things I like about Collins as a coach/GM and other things hat frustrate me. My only points the last few days is that I think he is executing a plan, as opposed to the supposition that this year's offseason moves have been haphazard. That does not mean all of the seasons have been good.

Sure - they haven't been haphazard - except for - you know - the inability to figure out the salary rules and cap and being (seemingly) forced into using the amnesty on Elton Brand cause they didn't have enough money to sign Nick Young

NICK YOUNG

Are you forgetting Spencer's good play at start of last season? 4 double-doubles in first 6, 6 in first 12. Dale Schlueter never did that.

Don't have my rotation sheet at work, but I'm certain I never considered him a four in a lineup. Think if he played w/ Voose, I had Hawes as the five. Same with Battie.

Derek Put it up on twitter, 82 games has it and Hawes has never been at the four in his time with the sixers

Maybe in Collins' mind he did. Like when Brand was guarding Dwight against Orlando, something like that.

I'm pretty sure Thad played some five when Brand was on the floor with him last year by that logic. The Knicks game comes to mind, they put Thad on Amare and Brand on Harrelson, because Amare was the pick-and-roll threat and they wanted Thad to be defending that. Wound up biting them in the ass, because Brand couldn't rotate out on Harrelson at the three-point line.

Old people do get fuzzy memories - it's a problem

user-pic
johnrosz on Jul 13 at 12:22
+/-

What have I missed here? Thad had a solid year, I don't see him being an immovable asset at any point in the duration of his deal. Now everyone wants to cast him aside for garbage?

Seems like the popular sentiment from the bloggers now is to turn on Thad, his contract is fine. He's overpaid,and struggled after he went down awkwardly in game 2 CHI series...but that he's turned into a leper? Bizarre

Not a starter. He is what he's always been: a luxury on a good team, which we are not/won't be. 4 years of Thad or 3 years of Humph at similar money? I'll take the ex-Mr. Kardashian.

Except Humphries doesn't fit the perceived 2 year plan - if they could get humphries for two years - my hope is that they would have done that already.

He solves the issue I queried regarding collins love of his front court

Sure he married a kardashian and he's a joke - but he's a solid basketball player - it seems like the kardashian thing is hurting his value around the league - which is baffling to me

You (and many) have missed that the move is about moving salary to maximize what is perceived as the sixers '2 year plan' - that's all - it's not about basketball so much to me as maximizing the cap space available for the 2014 off season (not sure why - but they seem focused on that)

Thad is fine, but thad isn't great, thad is a tweener, thad is fungible, he's not someone you need to hold on to to build a winner of lure a free agent, so if the plan is getting clear of anything past the next two seasons, thad is the last real 'problem' piece - that's all

I don't see Thad as a leper. I like the guy, and like what he does on the floor. I just think, and I really talked about this right after the season ended, that they really only have two keepers on the team. Jrue and Iguodala. Iguodala's older, so if the plan is to rebuild, then he should go sooner rather than later. If the plan is to get better, then the rest of the guys can, and probably should be replaced with guys who either (a) fit with the current team or (b) fit with any team. They have all of these guys who might work on certain teams but just don't work on this team. Thad's one of them, unfortunately. If you're going to have a PF who can't rebound, then he needs to be able to legitimately shoot the three to stretch the floor and open things up for Jrue/Iguodala to drive and/or give them a guy to kick to for an open three rather than a 20-footer.

Anyway, this deal is less about getting rid of Thad, more about accomplishing two things. (1) Freeing up more cap space in two years. (2) Freeing up legitimate cap space next summer.

Right now, they can't make a move next summer. If they made this deal, they could.

Picture shows one of the 3 times Thad's used his right hand in his career.

First legitimate laugh of the day. Thanks. Please tell me how old you are. Just the decade of your birth will do.

Nah, I need the full year, 1890 is not out of the realm of possibility here

I'm not even making fun of him. I'm just so curious.

Old enough to have worn a coonskin cap. Young enough to trip the light fantastic. Vibrant enough to enjoy your blog.

More specifically, older than Lionel Hollins but younger than Lionel model trains.


Ok, now see, my mom was born too late to be a beatnik and too early to be a hippy - 1941 - So I'm guessing you're one of those annoying 'post WW2 babies' draining social security until i get none

user-pic
Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Jul 14 at 12:43
+/-

I thought you were a liberal, yet you're buying that Pete Peterson propaganda about SS going "broke"?

user-pic
Gosixers reply to Charlie H on Jul 14 at 12:53
+/-

Im a centrist who can do basic math comparing the size of one generation to the one following

Prolonged recessions don't help either

user-pic
Charlie H reply to Gosixers on Jul 14 at 13:25
+/-

Okay. Your math is wrong. Check out the CBO report. You're leaving out rising wages, the SS trust fund started under Reagan that adjusts for the baby boomers (you 30-somethings love to trash the baby boomers, nothing's gonna change that), and the fact that the most conservative estimate not made by Pete Peterson states that the worst case is that SS will pay 80% of benefits in 2034. Most importantly, almost all income increases are going to the top 1%, so those wages aren't subject to SS tax, because there's a cap of $90,000. If the cap were raised and more money and jobs went to people who need them, money would flow to SS.

I get really pissed off when people blame the greedy baby boomers, most of whom are not investment bankers and are struggling to make a decent living. Nobody ever points out how grossly unfair it is to expect boomers to give up the EARNED income they have put into SS for their entire working lives.

So what is the argument of these people? They are saying that we have to cut Social Security now so that we can save it from being cut in the future. Makes no sense. It's a dishonest argument, but nobody gives it a moments thought because it's a weapon to use in the war against the evil, hedonistic baby boomers.

OK, between 58 and 111.

Precisely! Good work, Brian. And speedy too.

Probably a safe bet to just average the two.

I think the light fantastic automatically ups him to at least 65

THen he should just get props for his internet dexterity and adjusting to new technologies

Unless of course his job when he was a productive member of society was like programming in machine language - or binary

I', closer in age to Lionel Simmons...

What about Lionel Ritchie?

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 13:09
+/-

...was born the same year as my father in law.

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 13:11
+/-

Both have been known to be dancing on the ceiling, but not trip the light fantastic.

My mother was born the same day and year as pete rose :)

Hope your aunt didn't look like Ray Fosse.

Fosse, Fosse, Fosse
Martha Grahama, Martha Graham
Madonna, Madonna, Madonna

Now that's trippin' the light!

But that's nothin'. I was gypped by Gypsy Rose Lee AND Gypsy Joe Harris while vacationing in Egypt.

But do you play the vibraphone like Lionel Hampton? Or run passing routes like Lionel Taylor?

Or act like Lionel Barrymore?

user-pic
Big Will reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 13 at 13:11
+/-

Can you turn a frown upside down like Lionel Kiddie City?

user-pic
johnrosz on Jul 13 at 12:41
+/-

I'd rather just let Evan play out the year, and if he sucks, don't pick up his option.

They don't have the whole year to make that decision. Has to be made earlier, I believe.

user-pic
johnrosz reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 12:42
+/-

by when? I think you'll be able to tell if he's a different player pretty early on

Need to check the FAQ, but December rings a bell. If they do that, he loses all value at that point. I don't think they'd even have Bird Rights on him. They'll never do it, no matter how bad he is.

Less than 9 minutes left in exciting Sixers Summer League action. Go Ju Holiday...

I'd just like to congratulate the entire team on excellent Lionel work.

@WojYahooNBA
Kwame Brown has agreed to a deal with the 76ers, his agent Mark Bartelstein says.

@WojYahooNBA
Kwame Brown's deal with Philly will pay him nearly 6M over two years. Player option for second year.

user-pic
FKD215 reply to sixerfan1220 on Jul 13 at 13:47
+/-

What?!? I can't say I saw that coming. What are we paying him?

This is downright hysterical now

Brown brought in to start at C with Hawes at PF.

FML

#1 draft pick!

Thank god for a second year option (team it seems)

Has hawes officially signed his deal?

Oh crap - it's a player option? Sheesh

Raise your hand if you are surprised how much you miss ed snider

I thought he had a decent year with the Bobcats leading to his huge one year deal with the Warriors, but where there the hell was he last year?

injured

Brown/Hawes starting together = quest for #1 overall pick.

Is brown better than hawes?!!!?? Wow. Not thrilled about this signing. Possibly will take away minutes from voose.

I think it's pretty clear already that Voose and minutes don't go together when Doug Collins is your coach

Crowded (with garbage) frontcourt. Young/Hawes/Allen/Brown/Vucevic/Moultrie. Even if Young, and for that matter, Harkless, split time at small forward.

Not for nothing - but kudos to Andre Iguodala for not going public (years ago) demanding a trade, anywhere, to cleveland for gods sake

We are almost complete. All we need is a cheap backup point guard. I again vote for AJ Price.

Allen Iverson would come cheap- and probably make total sense to this plan

user-pic
sfw reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 14:01
+/-

Too close to the casinos..........

Hmm, i am kind of torn on the trade idea.

I love Thad, but i'd be on board with letting him go to open up even more cap space, but only if there are high quality free agents available.

I do agree with tk76 though that i think Thad will be tradeable next year too and giving him up without actually getting a long term asset is pointless. Turner can be cut, as he has a team option, so i don't see the need to give him up right away. Instead you can showcase him and see if you can get more from him. The plan appears to be cap space in 2 years. Not next year. No need to rush things and changing the plan on the fly. Isn't Love expiring in 2 years?

I like Calderon but he is essentially an expiring. Davis is not more than a 15 min per game rotation big. He is not a starter.

I am not against the idea to completely fit the whole team with the plan, but i don't think this move is necessary this offseason.

Jrue, Turner, Iguodala, Spencer, Kwame.

Sounds like wins!!!

Next year's cap number goes up to about $48M, not including Jrue's extension/QO.

btw, not sure they can afford $3M this season. Maybe they can if they gave Hawes and Lavoy bumps in year 2 instead of flat salaries.

Um - here's another tweet

Sixers offered Lou Williams "2. 3, 4 year deals," according to coach Doug Collins. (This is a tweet from the same guy who said they want Hawes at the four)

So they offered more than 2 years to Lou, if true, tells me two things

1. That two year plan people are claiming the sixers have is utter codswollop - the sixers have no plan
2. Lou wants to start more than he wants to make money - which is admirable (I guess) and he knows he wouldn't start here (or in Golden State)

So yeah - 2 year plan - don't think so

My best guess is they wanted to keep Lou and Thad together off the bench indefinitely.

In the realm of - holy crap everything we debate here really is meaningless - and it is sixers related

BrianMLevy: Sixers Xavier Silas with a significant head injury here in Orlando. Possible skull fracture is the worry.

Wow. hope he's ok.

Kwame Brown for 3 million per year is fine. And he fits the 2 year plan. The problem? How the hell is Collins going to find minutes for 6 front court players?

Hawes/Brown/Vucevic/Moultrie/Thad/Allen are all signed for next season. Even Harkless might play some 4. I get the gathering assets for 2 years thing but this is kind of ridiculous. I have no idea how the team will look like rotation wise next season. They may have wasted assets in the process i'm afraid.

Here's the fun part. All of those guys are under contract for the next two years. Not just this season.

Yeah, i am worried about too much depth. It prevents them to showcase any assets they might have.

That rotation is the shallowest depth I've ever seen.

True, but all those guys need minutes. Why sign them otherwise?

user-pic
Charlie H reply to Xsago on Jul 14 at 12:56
+/-

Because you need 12 players.

You mean the two year plan that means they offered 3 and four year deals to lou willliams?

yeah, not buying they have a two year plan - period...i thought when lou left it was because he didn't want to sign for 2 years, but if they offered him 3 and 4 year deals he turned down I think it was about fighting for a starting spot AND blows the whole '2 year deal' hypothesis out of the water...because lou williams isn't a guy you sign long term if you're looking to rebuild in 2 years

The two year thing is a fact, not a hypothesis.

Actually, it's more of a rationalization (at worst), or a an adjustment (at best) to the fact that Lou wouldn't sign here for longer.

I think Nick Young is that adjustment. After one year of him they have no clue what they're doing. After all these two year contracts expire, they have no clue what they're doing doing.

That I agree with (though the Young thing showed the lack of plan cause they couldn't afford him right away) - but at the time (untiil today) i thought young was a response to lou not wanting to sign a two year deal, but that wasn't it, i could buy the two year plan (though it's awful to me) if they at least had a plan - but if that was the plan - why would they make 3 year and 4 year offers

Which is why the 2 year plan 'fact' isn't so much a fact but spin....just because it's said publicly doesn't mean it's fact.

Yeah - sure it is - cause they said it it must be true - just like the amnesty of elton brand wasn't an 'oh my god we can't afford nick young' moment.

If they really had a 2 year plan in place they wouldn't have offered anyone more than 2 years

Yet Lou turned down 3 and 4 year deals.

The 'two year plan' is spin to the people who will believe what they are told - even when facts contradict it

Like a four year offer to a one dimensional bench player who isn't really that important to the concept of winning.

It's like the folk who still believe Thorn is in charge because he's the mouth piece

The fact is everyone on this team expires in at most two years other than Thad, and that is by design, not coincidence. Lou has alluded for years that he feels he's a starter, but it makes sense for them to have tried and signed the league's best bench duo to equal length contracts.

If they wanted to sign him for guaranteed money when they offered him 3 and 4 year deals, yeah, the plan would've been toast. That would've been a terrible mistake. They may or may not have done it, we don't know. The report also suggests they offered him a 2 year deal. They may have given him team options for years 3 and 4, or made the contract non-guaranteed.

Once again you depend on evidence of things not seen.

When's the last time the sixers handed out an option that was in their control - not the players?

Sorry - the sixers don't offer team options - it makes too much sense

So the move we've all been commending the Sixers for - not signing Lou Williams - wasn't really a move at all, it was their own free agent saying he'd rather play elsewhere...for less money :)

Yeah - but I think it's actually motivated by starting honestly

But seriously - if the sixers had signed lou for 3 or 4 years, if he had said yes - would you still think they had a 2 year plan?

I don't any more - course i didn't really buy it in the first place :)

Only Rod Thorn has less of a handle on what the hell the Sixers are doing than I do.

Kwame signed. Spence at the four. A four-year offer to Lou Williams.

Anyone still feeling confident about the moves this summer? If they really offered Lou 4 years, that blows my "Collins on a leash" theory.

Yeah, I never bought your collins on a leash theory

Now we just need Andre Iguodala traded and the summer of chaos will be completed.

At this point - who has a better 'supporting cast'

Dwight Howard or Andre Iguodala?

Brief sidebar: Orlando would be foolish to not cleanse their franchise and make a deal with Houston, but what the heck will Houston have around Dwight when the dust settles? Especially after releasing Scola.

Kevin martin - Dwight Howard - um, they have restricted rights on a point guard who played in china last year still don't they?

I don't know what they have - but if houston is willing to take on ALL Orlandos garbage, yes orlando makes the trade, but why is houston willing to take on ALL the garbage unless dwight is staying for sure.

If the money was low for the 3 and 4 year contract, it still could fit under their "two year" plan. While we dislike Lou, Collins and staff obviously did not so keeping him on the cheap was potentially a part of their plan.

Now it makes no sense for him and i'm sure he got more from Atlanta anyway.

I kind of doubt they offered him less than 4 years/$20M.

For Lou I think it came down to role, not money. They're overpaying players left and right, why would he be an exception.

Is he starting over Devin Harris or playing off-guard for the Hawks?

Forgot they got Devin Harris. So their backcourt is Lou, Harris and Teague. I'm not sure he's starting in ATL. Think it was more about being from the area.

I think there's more minutes in Atlanta, and come on, Devin Harris is terrible - he's an expiring contract :)

Teague and Harris are both points ostensibly - do the hawks have another '2 guard' player?

Can't say it won't be an interesting year. Can't wait for the press conference? Twin towers, Spencer & Kwame. Where's "Spencer & Kwame is hired" when you need him? This season will be like a David Lynch series. Twin Peaks! Sixers style.

I loved that show

user-pic
SeanzyBillups on Jul 13 at 14:23
+/-

"But he is has a 5 year plan..."

"What is it? Don't die"

"I guess the 5 year plan turned into a 10 year plan"

And Hey...with Jrue Holiday, our dynamic point guard of the future, we can't fail! we should build around him!! give him the max!!

LOLOLOLOLOL

If Jrue doesn't come down dramatically from the max in his negotiations, he should be playing elsewhere in a couple of years. I thought an extension similar to Conley's was in line this summer.

Lou Williams got 3 and 4 year deals
Hawes at the 4
Kwame Brown - our savior

The question I asked earlier regarding the belief in Collins is now reiterated

Really?

This from Tom Moore

Waiting for confirmation on Kwame Brown signing. BTW, told Collins wanted to sign him for 2011-12 season.

user-pic
mo speezy on Jul 13 at 14:38
+/-

Lol WOW @ Kwame Brown signing.

It's almost as if the front office was sitting around and someone said "yea, we've made a lot of baffling moves this offseason - but what can we do that will REALLY make people angry & confused?"

Jesus christ... I hate this team so much.

Look, we have a two year window with Iggy in his prime. The time is now to sign vets and win.

Um - that's sarcasm right?

We can't sign vets that would help us win; we spent that money (about $15.5M this year) on Spencer Hawes, Nick Young, and Kwame Brown.

I was joking, yes.

At least I'm no longer the biggest lottery disappoinent on the team

user-pic
mo speezy reply to Evan Turner's Ego on Jul 13 at 14:48
+/-

Haha... yet!

All I can think about is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP4RT-vv-o

Hawes signing is official.

Nothing good ever happens to this team.

That's whyy I ask this question - seriously

Do you miss Ed Snider?

user-pic
Stan reply to Cin on Jul 13 at 15:11
+/-

Contract details?

They never give them out. We'll find out later he has 90% trade kicker or something and a player option for a third year.

In regards to the Houston plan with Dwight- they plan on having enough cap space to offer CP3 a max contract next summer thinking Dwight will stay in Houston if it the only place he can be teamed with CP3.

Of course Dwight will counter by trying to force a trade to the Clippers.

I don't believe that the Clippers will offer Chris Paul a max contract if it means they have to pay even one dollar of luxury tax - Sterling loves his bonus checks...

No way they're going to give him the 100 mil he'd be worth.

Is it better to not spend money or to spend it stupidly?

Man, these next 2 years are going to be weird. All of this disposable garbage on the roster and probably another year or two before we can expect Harkless or Moutre to contribute.

I guess it will be nice to see what we have in Jrue a year before having the write the check- but otherwise sounds like a good time to move to New Zealand for a year or two- if only to escape the Sixers.

Nah - can't escape the sixers if you go 'down under' - sorry

http://www.sydneysixers.com.au/team

As for Jrue - what exactly can we see when he has this assortment of team mates on his roster? Who is running the pick and roll well with him? Who is the finisher he can work with to work on his court vision? Who is going to draw a double team so he might get open looks.

I'd say this roster is much worse for Jrues development than last seasons

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 15:28
+/-

That's about 1400 miles away from where I'll be 7 weeks from now.

Yeah - but time zone relevant :)

user-pic
tk76 reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 16:01
+/-

2 hrs apart. About the same distance and same time zone difference as Chicago and LA. Accents, currency, lifestyles are different too- but same hemisphere. LA and Sf have more in common :)

user-pic
Philly in NYC on Jul 13 at 15:28
+/-

How about this trade?....
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6pxagy7

Our starting 5: Jrue, ET, D Wright, Thad Young, Al Jefferson
2nd String: Alec Burks, Nick Young, Moe Harkless, Lavoy Allen, Hawes
Others: Moultrie, Kwame Brown

what do you guys think?

Late lottery?

I think utah no longer has a need for andre Iguodala after their trade with the Hawks

Honestly - I want Iguodala to go to the Lakers

user-pic
Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 16:26
+/-

Lakers say no

There's no way to get Iguodala to the lakers - i just think it would be best for him :)

It's really the biggest hole they have right now - plus - he won't take so many stupid 3's like Artest does

(well that and their bench is still weak)

Best Way to get Iguodala would be for the sixers to be part of a houston/orlando/lakers triumverate - but there's not enough floating around in there to make it worth the sixers while

user-pic
tk76 reply to Stan on Jul 13 at 16:33
+/-

sounds like a Billy King special

user-pic
Stan reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 16:40
+/-

:(

Billy King would have taken back Metta or traded him straight up for Pau Gasol

user-pic
Stan reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 16:40
+/-

That also hurt my feelings.

user-pic
tk76 reply to Stan on Jul 13 at 17:39
+/-

Hah. The trade is not bad. I was commenting on the need of so many teams and moving parts. BK is known for trying to cobble together well intended multi-team transactions that are too complicated to be pulled off.

Getting Iguodala to the lakers in a way that the lakers would be ok with it is almost an impossibiliity - was futzing with it on my lunch break as I was trying to get work focus back - i tried with the lakers and houston - i tried orlando lakers sixers - i tried all 4 - there's just not enough out there to make it worthwhile for one of the teams involved...too many bad contracts i wouldn't want the sixers taking back, orlandos need to dump stuff, houstons quest for howard...or bynum

I'm actually kind of shocked Kwame signed w/ the Sixers. I guess he's stopped having nightmares about Collins.

I'm shocked to hear that Collins wanted him last year, shocked in a disappointed sad kind of way

Collins stated recently in his Philly tenure that he just couldn't get through to Kwame back in Washington, which makes sense, since texting wasn't "in" yet.

I remember we posted about that interest last year in here. Kwame got a 1 year 8 (or 9?) mill deal too. We wanted him for his toughness. He blocked ZERO shots last year in his limited court time.

OK - so now i get it

Jason Quick: Been told Jeff Van Gundy not interested in returning to coaching until after his daughter graduates from high school in June of 2013 Twitter

Collins will coach one more year - head up stairs - and JVG will come in - another long term tv guy returning the coaching

BRILLIANT

DIABOLICAL

I spelled that wrong earlier today too :)

It all comes clear now - clear the decks - and let Jeff Van Gundy who has done nothing but criticizing coaching moves for the past 5 year or so take over after Collins shows how years behind the studio bench makes you tons better as a coach

Could be worse. Could've signed Mark Jackson to coach the team.

The Kwame Brown signing is going to interfere with Hawes' development. I wrote about it here: http://www.cheesesteaksports.com/2012/07/13/a-big-brown-stain-at-center/

Hawes' development? Hope that's not your big debut post.

user-pic
buke reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 16:12
+/-

Wow! That's a must read. He loves Hawes' game and his politics. Maybe the two loves are correlated.

Holy crap. I wonder if he realizes he's a complete racist.

user-pic
Rich reply to Brian on Jul 13 at 16:53
+/-

Yeah. Hawes love aside, some poor language choices in there.

user-pic
mo speezy reply to buke on Jul 13 at 16:14
+/-

Lol, seriously... This article has got to be satire, right? If so - bravo, Sullivan. Bravo.

I just read about 80% of your blog entries. I'm trying to figure out what you're a caricature of. A combination of Bill O'Reily and a WIP caller maybe?

Ed Anger's "My America" of Weekly World News fame.

With a sprinkle of Skip Bayless.

I know no ones excited about Kwame Brown, but..
Is he a good defender? can he catch the ball close the rim and finish?

Can anyone who has watched him play a lot or who has access to advanced stats tell us something about him?

Here's what I know about Kwame Brown

He has small hands
He gets hurt

Precisely. Hawes lacks the core strength to make it through the first month without a serious injury. And Brown is sure to get hurt as well. We'll need a six player rotation at the 4 and 5.

user-pic
brennp reply to ojr107 on Jul 13 at 16:49
+/-

I won't claim to have much expertise on Kwame, but at the age of 30 he appears to have grown into the role of a fair and affordable backup NBA center. Obviously, that's not the destiny the Wizards hoped for when they drafted him, but I think he is probably a decent acquisition for the Sixers at $3 million per year for two years. Although I would like to see Vucevic get more floor time, a little front court competition should help the team.

user-pic
Court_visioN reply to ojr107 on Jul 14 at 5:15
+/-

Kwame is a solid man-to-man defender. He used to be pretty mobile and could defend pick and rolls fairly well, I'm not sure about how good he is anymore, he's been in the league for awhile now.

Not a great help defender, rotations are typically a little slow with him but I'd probably say he's a serviceable big man defensively. Offensively he's always shown some flashes but he's never found a go to move. Also has very little confidence - I wouldn't play him in the last 6 minutes of any game.

It's funny thar clearing the books in preparation for the 2014-15 season is what the Sixers have given us to look forward to. Nothing. Literally nothing.

user-pic
tk76 reply to Cin on Jul 13 at 17:41
+/-

As always, a year or two away from being a year or two away.

fascinating article on the Brown/Collins relationship(and on Brown in general)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/28/AR2006112800709_pf.html

long read but very very interesting about the history between DC and Kwame...either Doug will get the best player he's capable of being, or will completely fry the poor dude and drive him out of the league (and this sure sounds a lot like what ET must've been going through too)...

Mavs claim brand

That was to be expected, curious to know what the claim amount was - the sixers are saved that money from their coffers at least - correct?

I'd think it would have to be more than the minimum claim, to win

user-pic
Nick reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 18:23
+/-

2.1 mil was the bid i believe

user-pic
Stan reply to Nick on Jul 13 at 18:20
+/-

Good. Better than seeing him going to Brooklyn or Boston for the vets minimum.

He was never going to clear the amnesty wire :)

You know - there's on plus about the kwame brown signing

It's not another 6'7 wing player

Brad Miller to Hornets as the Timberwolves continue to clear cap space. Korver was rumored to be a part of the deal, but he's already been traded to Atlanta. The Wolves want to appease Kevin "Surround Greatness with Greatness" Love but the Blazers are not inclined to give up Batum for anything short of a king's ransom.

the rumor wsa a couple first round picks and korver for batum (Korvers guarantee picked up yet?)

It's intersting how some reported offer sheets still haven't been signed yet - as the wolves continue to maneuver to try and get batum for instance - i think the blazers are making a mistake - i'm not saying batum would 'tank' but an unhappy employee isn't a good employee, and, well, let the wolves over pay him and take the tanks.

Loves whininig is kind of stupid - because before Rubio went down they were quite good...I don't think they're trying to appease Love - I think they honestly think Batum is worth that cash and they have enough centers

Sixers held a secret tryout: Kwame beat William Cunningham, 11-9.

5 plusses: He's big. Nothing will surprise him at this stage in his career. There's something to be said for camping in the lane without fire. Lavoy can borrow his pants. MJ still believes in him.


Trying to figure out exactly what was accomplished with the Brand amnesty.

Had they kept Brand they would have been over the cap but under the tax for 1 year due to his 18M contract. 13M of this went directly to D.Wright/N.Young/Kwame/Watkins.

Had they kept Brand they would be at 53M prior to resigning any RFA's (Lou/Lavoy/Meeks/Hawes.) If they spent 5M resigning any combo of them then they would have not been able to bring in any FA's beyond a mini exception and minimum players. But they would have had 17M under the tax to re-sign any combination of their own players or make sign and trade moves (if they could find a willing trade partner.)

For next summer they lost some cap space overall (maybe 9M) since they signed Hawes, Lavoy and Kwame to 2 year deals. They also will have an 8M cap hold for Jrue. So unless Iggy opts out (or is traded) they will have no cap space next summer- as opposed to having a moderate amount had they kept Brand (depending on how many Birds Rights players they resigned.)

So looking at the total sum of their moves (if they keep Iggy), I am sort of coming around to Brian's viewpoint. For the most part they acquired cheap, shortish term garbage who sort of compliment the roster. But if anything they have less flexibility next summer than had they held onto Brand.

My conclusion in the next post...

Because they didn't sign lavoy to a contract with options or a 2 year deal like most 2nd round picks - they had to use some of their available cap on Lavaoy Allen

They could not have paid Nick Young six million dollars without using the amnesty on Elton Brand - after giving Hawes his 6.5 million dollars.

It's not complicated - the sixers screwed up - they panicked - and they amnesty'd Elton Brand because they just had to sign Nick Young

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 19:41
+/-

So IMO this is what they decided:

1. They did not feel the name guys they could get were worth giving up long term flexibility. So they actively decided to not go after Hump/Ilyasova/Asik/Anderson etc.

2. They decided they had no real shot at a big name player, because either they would bolt after a trade (Dwight) or their offer sheet would be matched.

3. They could not come up with a trade that would remake the roster in a direction that they deemed worthwhile. No one can say exactly what this means, because we really don't know what trade options were in play- so we can't fairly judge if this inaction was good, bad or indifferent. My guess is that the offers for Iggy were weak or involved taking back really long contracts that would further lock them into mediocrity- but who really knows.

*4. Despite reaching the conclusion that amnestying Brand would not lead to an addition that would either represent an infusion of young talent or an overall upgrade... they felt they had to amnesty Brand, if simply because that was the only way to shake up the roster a bit. Because without amnestying Brand it meant that they would have had to bring back the majority of their roster... and would have been killed by the media and fans for doing that. I guess they still could have made an Iggy trade to shake things up, but my guess is that the offers were pretty weak.

So IMO it would have been a bit wiser to either:

1. Keep Brand and Iggy around for next year and be stuck making minimal additions. Offer their own RFA's only 1 year deals with the intention of maximizing what they could do next summer to truly re-make the team (instead of waiting 2 years like they are now since the net sum of their moves actually cost them cap space next summer.)

or

2. Amnesty Brand, sell Iggy for 1 year contracts and whatever youth/picks you can get (probably not much) and then bring back players who are either oin 1 yr deals or are under 26 and show promise. This would have been closer to bottoming out- although would still probably not get you a top 5 pick next year.


But honestly, despite the fact that these would have been better options, it is still good that they did not bry the future with long term deals on guys who are not franchise altering players. Yes, hey treadled water and probably pushed things back a year unnecessarily. But this is not really franchise altering in the big picture and I can actually understand why they were unwilling to go with either option 1 or option 2 when their current plan gets them to the same destination 1 year later without the pain of being truly abysmal (without Iggy) or getting skewered publicly (by making no moves this summer.)


Sorry for the excessively long posts... but wanted to sort of think aloud.

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jul 13 at 19:54
+/-

So as usually my conclusion are similar to Brian's... but my reasoning is not nearly as harsh. When I look at the options available to them this summer I think they sort of copped out- but I can see why they decided to do this.

Unlike GoSixers, I don't think this was due to panic or stupidity (although I agree they brought some of this on themselves with the Lavoy and Young contracts.) They made a decision to sort of tread water for a bit without actually bringing back the exact same roster (and getting clobbered for it.)

I don't think there was a clear way for them to acquire a long term superstar this summer. I don't think the guys available for long term deals were worth it for this team. And I don't think they could have acquired a bunch of promising young players by moving Iggy or or ET.

So they ended up making relatively lateral moves. This is frustrating as a fan... but also understandable given their circumstance.

The Lou "four year contract" remark by Collins is mind-boggling. Somebody has to be lying. Lou signed what, a 4 year/20 million dollar contract? I find it really hard to believe he took any less money to play anywhere else and I also find it hard to believe the Sixers' legitimate 4 year contract offer wasn't equal to theirs. Besides being his hometown, there's nothing Atlanta offers better than here, and even then, Lou has seemed to enjoy his time in Philly a lot with the whole LouWill Ville stuff.

Then Lou tweeted "the organization decided to move in a different direction" even before he signed with Atlanta. It's pretty clear they at one point made a decision to go with Young over Lou. Like, if they offered Lou a four year contract and he still was weighing it, they would have held out for Lou presuming they wanted him. The Nick Young signing first and foremost signaled the end of Lou's tenure.

Somebody is sort of lying about this. It's my personal opinion that it is Doug Collins. If the organization really wanted Lou, then why would they offer him 2, 3, and 4 year deals and say "any of these would be fine." I've never heard of that variance before. Two and four years is a huge difference. Like, they would want to lock him up long-term or just have him for a couple of years. I personally think Brian is still right, the organization told Collins he could go crazy for two years, but with the cap penalties getting harsher, anything after 2 would be too much.

It's just a guess but I bet they legitimately offered Lou something like 2 years, 10-15 million dollars, with the organization's blessing. Then Collins, who loved Lou and was a huge fan of his, pushed for four, but they said no. When he probably complained, they said, "Fine, but nothing over a certain number like 15-20 million," and Lou looked at it like a joke. There seems to be a power struggle in the Sixers front office, not between Thorn and Collins, but Collins and the FO. All speculation though.

user-pic
Stan reply to Rich on Jul 13 at 21:53
+/-

It might have been that Lou was offered 4 years and 20 million from the Sixers, turned it down and the Sixers decided to move on and sign Nick Young.

Lou tested the market, couldn't get a deal that paid him 7+ million a year and had to settle with Atlanta's offer.

4 years and 20 million is a decent deal for Lou Williams. It's a long term commitment but I feel like Lou is a better player than Nick Young.

There's at least one report that he turned down more money from the warriors.
I believe Lou turned down the sixers, and the warriors, because he wanted more minutes / a starting position, and Atlanta presented the best opportunity.

user-pic
Stan reply to GoSixers on Jul 13 at 23:29
+/-

But why would he take less money and sign a multi year extension to do so? Isn't the motive for taking less money for playing time, to have the opportunity to make more money in the next contract?

Hawes at PF by the way? Doug Collins, if he is the one making the decisions as it seems (within the 2 year period), is high.

user-pic
Rich reply to Rich on Jul 13 at 20:24
+/-

High at least as far as the Brown/Hawes combo. Unbelievably poor use of resources with those two deals. Especially with three young guys (Allen, Moultrie, and VOOSE, who Collins fucking drafted) who play center. I can't believe how fast he seems to have given up on Vucevic. These moves tell Collins he has no confidence in him, even though it was reported he was the driving force behind that pick when it was considered a reach by most.

That's ridiculous, right? Hawes isn't strong enough to play PF.

Apparently the announcement of Spencer Hawes's extension was delayed by some issues with the contract signing. Every time Hawes picked up the pen to sign, he got caught in an unusually focused cross-breeze from the air conditioning in the next room, which backed him out into the hallway.

Invariably, upon realizing that he was seventeen feet away and facing the opposite direction from his two-year, $13 million contract, Hawes would perform an awkward 180-degree spin move before throwing the pen backwards over his shoulder at the document.

There's a happy ending, though. Eventually they got Jrue Holiday to hand him the pen and put an arm around him while he signed the document, and on the fourth try, Spencer finally sealed the deal.

GO SIXERS!

This is what happens when the coach is given the keys to the car. GM and coach should operate as a sort of check and balance approach to building a team. If the plan is to shoot for a top FA next year the logic is flawed. What big-name FA would want to play on this team of mismatched pieces. The flip slide is to shoot for the lottery then we're back in the rebuild/let the young guys develop mode. Neither option appears well thought out. Besides, wasn't Collins the guy that picked this knucklehead #1 in the first place. Talent evaluation isn't DC's strong suit.

user-pic
buke reply to G on Jul 13 at 22:09
+/-

I'm not sure who bears the most responsibility for drafting Kwame Brown #1, but that was then and this is now. He's now 30 years old and, for a 3 million dollar a year center on a two year contract, he's not such a bad deal by NBA standards. I would have preferred taking a chance on a younger and possibly undervalued big man like Daniel Orton, but this acquisition is OK with me.

For at least the opening weeks of next season, I suspect we are going to see a lot of lineup experimentation and that's probably a good thing for this team.

There's only so much experimenting you can do when the elements you are starting with are the sixers current front court (including Kwame Brown) - whatever combination you have - the reaction will probably have a weak yield...

I think the source of frustration for me and many on here is thta they paid $9.5M against the cap on two backups. For comparison, Marcin Gortat makes $7.2M this year. Two backups for the cost of one starter when their already flush with bench types in Vucevic, Moultrie, and Allen.

Part of my frustration is that they felt the need to give out two year contracts - honestly - if they over paid - but for one year (ala 8 million for chris kaman) i would have been less (though still) irritated.

Everyone keeps saying 'this is a small deal' - but you know what they say - a billion here ,a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money (aaron sorkin almost always has a relevant quote to be used :) )

user-pic
Tray reply to GoSixers on Jul 14 at 0:29
+/-

That Sorkin's got a trite cliche for everything.

user-pic
Rich reply to Tray on Jul 14 at 11:41
+/-

I got dizzy watching The Newsroom. People don't talk that fast.

user-pic
Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Jul 17 at 10:26
+/-

Aaron Sorkin? That quote was by Everett Dirksen, 50 years ago, maybe 60.

The Sixers replaced Spencer Hawes with Kwame Browm and then replaced Elton Brand with Spencer Hawes.

The funny thing about all of this is that that it ended up costing the Sixers more money.

This team might be better off with Donald Sterling as their owner

This is the problem when you let your coach be the GM. Collins has played Josh Harris like a fiddle to become the effective GM. Collins believes his coaching skills can make players better than they are, and he has to prove he was right with Kwame when he drafted him in DC. Sixers will fight it out with Toronto for last place in the division and not win more than 30 games next year, despite Adam Aron continuing to try and sell tickets like a used car salesman. Philly boo birds will be back and so will crowds of less than 10,000 per game. These NY owners don't understand Philly, where we would rather have overachieving hard work guys than high draft pick prima donnas with no work ethic.

user-pic
Jason reply to aiafdb on Jul 14 at 0:20
+/-

Yes, Coaches can't be a GM. If we had a GM we would of had a much better/productive off-season. I long for the golden ages of Ed Stefanski and Billy King as our GM.

user-pic
aiafdb reply to Jason on Jul 14 at 18:58
+/-

Not saying coaches can not be GMs. Just saying Collins can't. He has a history of making terrible personnel decisions. Great coach, but lousy talent evaluator.

From the Washington Post article further confirmation that Collins ego is getting in the way of proper personnel decisions:
It was Collins's job to harden Brown, to teach him how to suffer, and in some ways the process was as traumatic for him as it was for his pupil. "I'm sure he thinks I'm this tough guy," Collins says. Collins has not enjoyed being the chief villain of Brown's existence, and his self-doubt is palpable. Popeye Jones observes, "Doug Collins was new at this, too. He had never coached a high school player." Collins wishes now he had understood just how vulnerable Brown was, emotionally and physically, beneath that big body. "I wish I could throw a switch and go back to training camp," Collins says. "I wish I could start over." What would he have done different? "Understand, seen his side more," Collins says.

Good news:
-The Sixers have not tied themselves to any long terms contracts this summer.

Bad News:
They have been garbage collectors. Hawes/N.Young/Lavoy/Kawme... 19M combined in place of Brand's 18M- and none of their signings are worthy of more than 20 minutes a game of playing time.

user-pic
tk76 reply to tk76 on Jul 14 at 5:22
+/-

Oops, left off Wright and Watkins. So 20M total for the guys they added or re-signed for next year. That's a lot of money spent on marginal players. But I guess we will be able to judge the best on what that money ends up getting diverted to in 2 seasons.

user-pic
eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jul 14 at 11:25
+/-

You seem to have changed your tune a tad from what you wrote/felt on Wednesday of this week. Does just a Kwame Brown signing accomplish such a swing? You know, the whole, team having a "measured" approach thingie?

I think it is 2 different things.

Earlier in the week I was contesting the notion that the offseason was haphazard. IMO (then and now) the team had a strategy of having some roster turnover but only 1-2 year deals. They may have wanted to make a bigger splash but were unable (no way to know.)

My comments yesterday were in regards to the results of this plan- which i am not all that pleased with. I still like what they did better than had they tied up their own players or over-rated guys like Ilyasova/Hump/Anderson/Ashik to 4 year 8-10M deals... but I would have still preferred they pulled of something bigger, traded Iggy or just stood pat for the next year (with only 1 year deals.)

There actions led to useless turnover for show purposes, while they ultimately pushed back the dramitic moves 1 extra year in order to say they did something. Had they kept Brand they would have more flexibility next year- but they would not have been able to say they did anything this summer.

user-pic
Hawaii Phil reply to tk76 on Jul 14 at 16:10
+/-

The biggest mistake is their loading up on marginal veteran tweeners and bigs, thus not giving the young players court time so they can see what they've got (unless they feel they've got crap... but then, they selected these new guys...)

Clueless to the extreme.

Yeah, too afraid to take a step back and lose a ton of games.

" 20M total for the guys they added or re-signed for next year. That's a lot of money spent on marginal players. " - amazing how quickly the Sixers turned themselves into the NBA's version of the Dodgers isn't it??

user-pic
FKD215 reply to tk76 on Jul 14 at 13:00
+/-

Yeah, I agree. This seems to have been a horrible committee decision where financial needs and basketball needs were compromised, and neither one is actually addressed. It looks to me like they figured they couldn't make a major leap forward this offseason, so the best basketball idea was to stock up prospects and wait for 1-2 years. But then the owners didn't want ticket sales to lag right back, so they filled the roster with these second rate signings using Brand's money.

The result is that neither objective was met -- we'll have a 35 win team where the prospects don't get minutes to develop, and no one wants to watch it.

Looking at some potential units for next year:

Starters and defensive variants:

Jrue
ET
Iggy
Kwame
Spencer

Possible starting unit. Will make your eyes bleed on offense given poor shooting and lack of post or P&R threats. Defensively will probably do fine despite Hawes lack of footspeed or any discernible defensive skill.

variants:
J/T/I + Lavoy/Spence or Lavoy/Kwame
...Better defense and still no offense. Ugly basketball for sure.

Offensively oriented units:

Jrue
N.Young
Iggy (or ET)... or Wright if you really need shooting
T.Young
Center (Kwame/Hawes/Lavoy/Vuce or some other crap center)

Probably a bit more appealing than last year, where offensive unit meant Lou + Thad. This way you sill have some combo of J/T/I running the offense and use the Youngs as finishers. Defensively ugly, but not any more so than last seasons "offensive units." On the negative, none of these players can create their own offense the way Lou did- so they will be more reliant on a team game- which could be seen as a good thing.

Spot substitutions:

This is the major upgrade from last year (especially pre-Lavoy emergence as a defensive specialist.)

If you need shooting (against zone or if offense cold):
-Wright or N.Young or Hawes depending on match-ups

If you need low post defense or rebounding:
-Lavoy and/or Kwame

If you need to up the pace:
-Thad

If you want to anger the fans:
-Hawes

What they are lacking is a guy who can get his own shot, a true PG (or quality back-up) and a guy who can cover really quick guards.

I left out Vuce, Harkless and Moutre as I don't know if any have much of a role next year.

Spotty substitution-maker: Doug Collins.

True enough.

Up a creek with the same paddler.

http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-sixers/sixers-talk/Sixers-brass-feels-it-nailed-off-season-?blockID=740120&feedID=694

Clearly there are a lot of spins out there. First Dei Lynum says Lou was offered 21 million for 3 years without actually saying she has a source, than she quotes Collins

"When Rod was presented with the fact that Lou had a deal for more money, then we could go to you have to be proactive,"

Knowing what Lou got, both can't be true.

The whole 12 min interview is here btw:

http://www.nba.com/sixers/video/2012/07/13/RodandDoug71312mov-2155349/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

It appears as if Iguodala is staying, and Moultrie, Vucevic and Harkless will be out of the rotation. This to me is a terrible decision.

user-pic
Spencer is Hired reply to Xsago on Jul 14 at 12:01
+/-

I totally agree with you. Turning this team over to Jrue and Evan is fine with me, let them sink or swim. But not allowing Vuce or Moultrie minutes at all doesn't make sense.

Harkless can sit and learn this year and get minutes next season but Vuce and Moultrie can't possibly do less for this team than K.Brown this season. It must be the old "competition and earning minutes" thing and our coach must feel both Vuce and Moultrie need the old toughlove Spieghts treatment.

user-pic
sooner reply to Xsago on Jul 14 at 12:19
+/-

At about the 1:15 mark, thorn is asked what the plan was from the beginning and his initial reaction was "Uhhh, ummm," that sounds about right.

Those 2 men have caused me to come to hate what was my favorite team. Fuck them.

user-pic
buke reply to Xsago on Jul 14 at 13:26
+/-

You can't be sure of how much Vuce or Moultrie will play yet. I'd say that the only thing you can be almost certain of is that Jrue and Iguodala (if he's still here) will start and probably lead the team in minutes. Hawes and Brown will likely start together but that is still less than certain. The amount of time those two stay on the court together is far from established.

For the next two years, the Sixers may be a somewhat below average team in a transitional state. If you have those expectations, just watch the team and enjoy whatever developments come through. The good thing about all of this is that, no matter how low they sink, none of this will have any adverse material effect upon your actual life, so cheer up.


Kwame Brown? Really?

http://youtu.be/uWyPNQnsa_w

I been hearing on the net how mad sixer fans are that we offered Lou 5/30. But nobody is asking if we offered that, why did he turn it down? I thought he got 4/20? Am I missing something?

user-pic
sooner reply to Cvd on Jul 15 at 10:31
+/-

We as fans are missing beat writers who are capable of asking the right questions so no one knows what was or wasn't offered to lou.

user-pic
buke reply to sooner on Jul 15 at 10:44
+/-

Absolutely agree!!! People are just accepting on faith what is being circulated through the press and/or rumor mill. They need to be a little more cynical. Lou has his fans and the Sixers' front office is at least going to give lip service to the idea of resigning him, but if they really wanted him, I think he would have been resigned.

Pro sports might be a different kind of business but it is still part of the corporate world and the sporting press is still part of the overall sad state of reporting today. Today's press is more often a mouthpiece used for the purposes of the people they cover than they are independent reporters and investigators.

user-pic
Spencer is Hired reply to buke on Jul 15 at 13:48
+/-

Lou is farther down on Atlanta's depth chart than he was here and doesn't have the luxury of a big p.g. to play with. I count A.Morrow,J.Teague, and D.Harris ahead of him and they drafted J.Jenkins also.

Agree. Bob Cooney and Dei Lynam - Ring Lardner and Hedda Hopper, not. Scoop ice cream only. (Doug adds the jimmies.)

Actually all that most here are reacting to is the 3 year and 4 year reports - which Tom Moore said he got directly from Doug Collins. The years themselves are the issue, due to the fact that they claim (and others want it to be true) they have.

Additionally there are reports that Lou turned down more money from GOLDEN STATE. Now, fans who aren't paying attention and need to make a different point may confabulate those two points to make a point that the sixers offered a long term big deal to Lou.

As for why lou may have turned down more money, a reasonable point that has been made by many people is a desire to get a chance to start which is more likely in Atlanta compared to Philadelphia in Golden State

People accept on faith what they want to be true and deride what they don't want to be true

Yeah, Lou was in Sixers plans. They planned to let him find another contract. If they'd really wanted his services, he'd be here.

user-pic
jfp reply to GoSixers on Jul 15 at 14:38
+/-

"People accept on faith what they want to be true and deride what they don't want to be true"

Yes, I believe I've seen evidence of that around here.

Unsolved mystery due to last week's activity: Who's going to lose the opening tap this year, Spence or Kwame?
Who now is our 'standing vertical' king?

user-pic
Spencer is Hired reply to Dollar Bill on Jul 15 at 13:55
+/-

You should of seen the keeper flounder L.Sanders pulled in next to me this week. :) Indiana had a great summer adding Plumlee, Mahinmi,Gerald Green and Augustine while only losing Collison and Amundson. They sure distanced themselves from us.

Flounder tale - perfect allegory for his career to date. Did he clean and filet it or leave it up to you? :)

well whoever wanted Aron to stop tweeting...he's not listening (some of these are answers to Qs, thus the semi weird formatting...and i cut out some related to telling ppl to buy tix):
>>
Adam Aron ‏@SixersCEOAdam

Enjoying reading your "colorful" reviews of our roster moves. Some popular, some not. Our basketball execs convinced they made smart moves.

In total, 76ers got younger, bigger, more athletic, better shooting, and loaded with 1 and 2 year contracts giving enormous flexibility.

Yup, like a laser beam. RT @James_Fayleez: BINGO @DuCheGabbana we're clearly focusing on next year's free agency class, right ?

Really? I hadn't noticed. LOL. Actually, I love @Sixers fans' passion. Means you think and care. RT @BuzzOnErik we're a tough fan base...

No, new execs AFTER Stefanski/Jordan. Produced best year since '03 RT @A_Bartolacci Whew, same execs who presided over extended mediocrity.

Prefer nice tweets to nasty, but good or bad, important for me to know what fans think RT @DrDrew50 So you don't mind the negative tweets?

Super coach/roster, treat players great, full loud WFC, new practice home RT @Johnnybroadst stars must WANT to play for you. What's plan?

CBA rules require cap space to be allowed to sign any new free agents. RT @ARCohen5 What was reason then for shedding Brand's contract?

That's why we changed roster. Showed progress in '11-'12 but understood we required improvement. RT @MFALL99 8th seed is mediocrity Adam.

6'11" 270 lbs and all five of our coaches know him well. RT @GrizzlyJonesz give one good reason for Kwame Brown signing?

Doug supported all, enthusiastically. RT @reilz20: @SixersCEOAdam Did Doug Collins approve of any of these signings?

We can do both RT @thegreatJL are we looking to get a big name next off season or are you looking for new young talent

Focusing on this year too, for sure RT @rock9449 how can fans concentrate this year when your already looking towards next?

Yes, state-of-the-art, a very high priority. RT @JSimo10: @SixersCEOAdam new practice facility?

We all do, but we will know for sure once we actually start playing RT @PeteDougie12: Do you think this team has improved at all Adam?

Yes. RT @1staz8 are we getting blue jerseys next year?

Also, yes. RT @jfischer_22: @SixersCEOAdam are we getting a mascot next year

That we could be a mere 3 minutes away from EC Finals appearance. RT @shanevans What surprised you most about your first season in charge?

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Can't wait for opening night. RT @PhreshPhillies Are you basically writing off this season, hoping to contend in 2013-2014?

Yes. RT @Feedmezach if the season started tomorrow would you say we are a better team than last year?

Everyone, give a thought for Xavier Silas. Serious head injury in Orlando summer league game. All of Phila rooting for him.

Fabulous, even with occasional insults thrown my way on Twitter RT @cbufff how does it feel to have one of the best jobs in the world?

Catching a flight. So, have to sign off for now. Go Sixers!


user-pic
Rich reply to das411 on Jul 15 at 17:57
+/-

Good lord.

Whoever is upset about his tweets must not care for the insight he provides on the teams goals and mentality.

Yup, like a laser beam. RT @James_Fayleez: BINGO @DuCheGabbana we're clearly focusing on next year's free agency class, right ?

STFU ADAM ARON, WE KNOW YOU WON'T MAKE A MOVE YOU RICH BASTARD

user-pic
Rich reply to Cin on Jul 15 at 19:25
+/-

I get more upset at him constantly taking credit for being "the front office that brought us the best season since 2003."

There is so, so, so much wrong with that refrain. He's speaking a lot like Jerry Krause, but on a much, much, much smaller scale. "Players don't win the eighth seed. Organizations win the eighth seed."

Josh Harris should probably tell his buddy to stop with the tweets unless it's after a big win or something. Things could get really ugly this year if (when?) the team starts losing.

How dumb does he look with that "laser beam" comment, too? They have no fucking cap space next year unless Iguodala opts out or isn't here.


1. If they were focused like a laser beam on the next summers free agency - why is 9 million dollars tied up in Hawes and Kwame?

2. The only thing the new owners have done that I approve of is vetoing the Igudoala Ellis trade, which if made the sixers might not have made the playoffs :)

If Iguodala doesn't opt out they can at least use Hawes to match salaries in a larger deal but that's much more complicated than simply absorbing someone in to cap space.

user-pic
johnrosz reply to Rich on Jul 15 at 20:34
+/-

They can definitely create some cap space for the offseason with Iggy trade, even Thad if they choose. Agree it does look weird to say you're taking a laser focus on next years class but then sign a bunch of 2 year deals...

scola awarded to phoenix

There is no 2 year plan and even if there was why would a marquee free agent sign here if a better market was available and what assets will we have in two years that we could trade for something that we don't have now. This whole thing is fly by the seat of your pants crap.

Once you have someones bird rights and can offer a sixth year while going over the cap in the deal, anything is possible.

Ed Davis has been twice the player Turner has been throughout the first two years? He's grabbed one more rebound than Turner while playing a rebounder's position, and scores less, while playing the same amount of minutes. The same argument you're using for getting rid of Turner (besides the financial ones - he shoots too much, he's not "the guy", he has a big ego, etc.) is what was used against Russell Westbrook up until this year.

I think you guys are a little too willing to give up on someone who was the #2 pick two years ago just for cap space when there are so many other options for getting that space. I agree that they should look into getting Ed Davis because I think he is someone who would be a good part of the frontcourt rotation, but if you're going to get him, shop Thad Young (which I wholeheartedly agree with) and actually trade Igoudala instead of talking about it over and over again.

I mean, even if they have all of the cap space in the world, you gave them two options: sign a free agent to a max contract (which was already tried with Elton Brand, look how that worked out), or a slow rebuild right after they're coming off their best showing in years. What the Sixers team from last year gave was a reason to believe that the culture of losing that's been in place since AI left could be changed, and giving up on someone that was billed as "the guy" two years ago is a little short-sighted.

user-pic
Tray reply to paul on Jul 15 at 23:19
+/-

"The same argument you're using for getting rid of Turner (besides the financial ones - he shoots too much, he's not "the guy", he has a big ego, etc.) is what was used against Russell Westbrook up until this year."

No, the argument against Turner is simply that he shoots a lot while being one of the least efficient guards in the NBA. His floor game is commendable, he just can't score efficiently on the NBA level and unfortunately that doesn't stop him from trying.

Westbrook wasn't efficient his first two seasons either. So Paul's point is actually right on, based on your response.

user-pic
tk76 reply to paul on Jul 16 at 6:33
+/-

Westbrook averaged 16/8A/5R 6.1 Win Shares his second season at age 21.

ET averaged 9/3A/6R 0.1 Wins Shares his second season at age 23.

They both were high draft picks. Otherwise I don't see how you can compare their first two years in the league in any way.

There's no circumventing the fact that Turner's future success is dependent on a plethora of "if" statements.

If he defends consistently...
If he develops a jumper...
If he's in better shape...
If he puts in more effort moving without the ball...

His current trajectory is not that of "the guy," it's of "the flawed but useful rotational wing." As a fan, I hope he succeeds. Not for his sake, but if at some point in the future he proves a worthy second overall pick, that's better for the franchise. I hold out hope that he becomes a net positive because everything I listed is in his control and he seems to excel when he has a chip on his shoulder. But, for Brian and many other regulars here, it may be more worthwhile to sellout on that hope and move on with something more definite. With the post-AI Sixers perpetually in flux, can you blame them?


Expand/Contract all comments

Leave a comment


back-to-story.gif