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Sixers Hit Bottom (Hopefully)

Sharone Wright on Jan 10 at 9:31

Thanks for the write up. I think you summarized the attitude of most Sixers fans right now.
Jason Richardson 0 minutes. The way he played Tuesday night, I agree with the benching.

Zumoff and Malik were saying JRich wasn't playing because of injuries/needed rest. I don't think it was a benching because of poor play. If Collins is looking to bench a wing who's playing poorly he should just sit Nick Young or Turner.

Or all of them.

it's a shame kwame wasn't available. We definitely would've seen a lineup with Wilkins, Ivy and Kwame, which is my favorite.

Highlight of last night was Wilkins being in there with the starters and they're actually running plays to get him in isolation. Like that's their best offense. Hilarious.

if only they had a gigantic center who was known for flattening guys when they dunk on him at the end of games...sure would be nice to have that guy wouldn't it?

but all of a sudden the rest of this week looks nowhere near as friendly as it did a few weeks ago - even with two days rest before each of the next three games, they have the Harden show, these Raptors again, Spurs Knicks Memphis coming up #ouch

That was a dick move by Calderon but even I didn't give a shit. I have shifted towards a state of apathy about the Sixers and right now I am looking forward to next year. Turner is so terrible that at this point I'm more concerned about seeing him score points than seeing the Sixers win. I want to see his numbers improve to 16/5/8 no matter how inefficient he is so that he has some trade value at the deadline.

I'm not angry with this team. They're not talented at all outside of Jrue and Thad. Being frustrated with the Sixers right now is like being frustrated with your 6 year old kid because he doesn't understand long division.

Sharone Wright reply to Stan on Jan 10 at 9:48

So can I be angry with managment and Collins for putting together such an abysmal roster?

Yep. Open season on roster construction, as it really has been since they re-signed Hawes. The Bynum move was the right move, and it came about because they inquired about Howard's availability, but they built this roster to take the floor without a dominant big. If Orlando had just hung up the phone, we'd be watching a starting lineup of Jrue, Turner, Iguodala, Thad and Hawes right now, with D-Wright, Lavoy and Nick Young probably finishing off your 8-man rotation (Vucevic probably would've been the 9th, doubt he would've worked his way into the rotation, because they signed Kwame. Moultrie and Harkless would probably be jockeying between the D-League and Philly and rarely playing). That's a downgrade from last year's team. Probably around .500, maybe sneak into the playoffs.

I especially liked the play last night where 3 Sixer players were standing out of bounds near the baseline trying to set picks for one another. At the very least this team provides a few comical moments each game.

I had two favorites. The one where Turner had Jrue wide open for a corner three in transition and decided to take one more fancy dribble before passing, wound up walking. The other was when Turner threw a 4-foot bounce pass to Hawes when he was five feet away from him. Turnover/dunk.

Tuck reply to Brian on Jan 10 at 10:37

Yep, I remember both those plays and since I'm a glutton for punishment, I kept rewinding them on my DVR to fully understand just how bad they actually were.

Sharone Wright on Jan 10 at 9:53

I am one of the biggest Hawes haters out there, but this team is so bad now that I want them to give him the ball when he is in.

Last night, I was seriously hoping they'd give him the ball in the post in the second half, just because it's always so comical seeing him try to back people down, and get up the softest shot possible.

South Broad on Jan 10 at 10:29

On that Turner spaz defense note - one of the hidden truths that has risen to the surface this season is Turner's below average defense. Many fans had bestowed credit and praise upon him as a lock down defender or at a minimum an above average defender. This seemed to be in tune with his "flashes" he shows on offense from time to time. He had a few good possessions at the end of the Oklahoma City game guarding Westbrook and a lot of fans still clinged to this hope that he was legitimate on that end. Looking at the whole body of work this hasn't turned out to be the case. It's only been flashes here and there just like his offensive game. The thought process was that he would at least step into the role vacated by Iguodala on that end and likely not be as good as Iggy but still perform adequately enough to where there wouldn't be this huge dropoff. Instead it's come to the point where the coaches are assigning Jason Richardson to the Kobes and Durants of the league. Extremely disappointing to witness just how bad he is on that end of the floor and this is only in the individual sense. His team defensive principles have always left a lot to be desired. As for his offense that's another subject for a full 24 hour day - probably two.

Yeah, I've got this huge spreadsheet on Turner's offense. Every time I update it I'm just too depressed to post it. Maybe during one of these off days.

Last night, two times, Turner left his man to double Alan Anderson in the post. Both plays wound up in threes.

He's so unbelievably bad at keeping track of his man off the ball, I'd almost prefer they put him on the ball on defense, but then you have to deal with the fact that he's never fought over a screen in his life.

Last 2:

"unbelievably bad" Evan: 76:27 min - plus/minus -22
"all-star" Jrue: 69:25 min - plus/minus -43

Evan DRtg: 121, 100
Jrue Drtg: 121, 111

Evan A/TO: 10/6
Jrue A/TO: 12/7

Yet Jrue collects a pass while Evan collects spleen. A little balance please. Both are knuckleheads on the court.

Old people are easily confused and don't comprehend what small sample size means or the 'team' aspect of +/-

On Wisconson, on Wisconson,
Fight on for Jrue's fame.
Fight, fellows, fight, fight, fight,
We'll rig Jrue's name.


Go back down into your hole, badger.

I'm sorry - Did you go to the University of Pangea?

Old people, like children, better seen than heard

Yep, they've both been bad.

You might also want to note that Jrue's TS% over the two games is 55.3%, while Turner's is 33.5%.

And really, if we want a more complete picture of Turner's play over the past two games, let's isolate the numbers a bit. Turner played the entire fourth quarter of garbage time against the Nets. Specifically, against the dregs of the Nets bench. In those 12 minutes, he shot 3/5 for 6 points. He was also a magical +2.

In the other 64:37 of playing time over the past two games, Turner shot a dazzling 5/21 from the floor, 1/2 from the line for 12 points.

There's bad play, then there's Turner. The two should not be confused.

I always support the need for balance and your measures make a point, but there is the eye test and right now Turner is almost excruciating to watch. If a nervous/mental breakdown can be choreographed to basketball play, we may be watching the first example of that type of performance art.

Right now Jrue is the only guy on this team who appears to be able to create his own shot, and since there is little quality ball movement, that makes him the only offensive threat. But, at this point, all I want is 30 or fewer wins with a high first and two high second rounders. Hopefully, Bynum will fear the contagion of the team's disease and will sit out most or all of the remainder of the season.

My eye test says Jrue's game is as heady as spin art on the boardwalk - - turn on switch, pick up a plastic container of primary colored paint and squeeze... wheeeeeeeeeeee!

"Since there is little quality ball movement"... ostensibly, it starts with Jrue, the Doug Collins-designated captain of the (often hijacked) ball.

He isn't the only offensive threat; they all are, unfortunately. :)

Bynum. Read his whispering, mumbly lips. He and Howard are bad jokes at this point. (Used to like Dwight.)

Here's a question for you. Do you think Jrue is surrounded by viable offensive options and it's his style that holds them back?

Have to define your term. What do YOU mean by viable?

'A' grade weapon? None. Range shooters of varying effectiveness to set up? Yes. Post-up targets? Limited. Dribbling me-firsters like himself with whom to share the load? Yes (Turner, N. Young). T. Young isn't chopped liver, could score more with that focus in place.

I do believe Jrue's self-assertive, energetic (frequently frenetic) style of play in combination with Doug's endorsement of it and Doug's constipated offensive tactics is a millstone around some of his teammates necks.

I'll pose a question to you: Whose game does Jrue, ball dominator, enhance?

Hawes, Allen, Wright, Richardson and really Turner.

Without Jrue, none of those guys get a decent look on the offense end, from anywhere. The attention Jrue draws and the pressure he puts on the defense makes them look better than they actually are (which is amazing if you think about how bad they look).

I'd further make the argument that playing with all these stiffs makes Jrue look worse than he is. Multiple times pretty much every game his hard work is wasted when the bigs can't finish on the inside, the wings can't hit an open jumper. And he has to deal with two or three defenders at a time because no one else on the team is a legitimate threat to do anything (especially the bigs).

Your top line roll call: sometimes so, not consistently - my opinion.

Timing AND placement of pass to shooter is critical. Watch poor results when shooter has to lift ball from low pass or reset from high pass. Delivery is big. Hail to the late Guy Rodgers.

Being the best (and most licensed) player on a bad team is Jrue's blessing and curse. One stride forward, one cringe back.

mymanjrue reply to buke on Jan 11 at 2:12

"right now Turner is almost excruciating to watch. If a nervous/mental breakdown can be choreographed to basketball play, we may be watching the first example of that type of performance art."

totally. i've been trying to get in on it

Jrue on TrueHoop TV

They wanted Turner, but he was unavailable. Too busy signing autographs.

SAC appears to be showing willingness again to trade Tyreke Evans. Would you be interested? Could the Sixers even put together a package together to make such a deal (not talking about Jrue or Thad)?

No interest at all.

Stan reply to Brian on Jan 10 at 17:13

Not even for a Turner/Evan swap?

Ugh. I don't know. I don't think there's much of a difference between them. Turner's a better rebounder and uses less possessions sucking ass at scoring. Evans uses more possessions, but he can actually get his own shot once in a while against an NBA defender. I'd probably do it, but only to get out of the contract after this year (Turner is already guaranteed at an insane price for next season).

We already have our '1 yr of college', AAU-conditioned, lanky athletic guard with a subpar WS/48.

A big part of the problem this team has been having lately is overly agressive passing. Especially Hawes and Turner, but not just them. They are constantly trying to make big plays throwing into traffic. This team would be much better off if they left those type of plays to Holiday and a backup point guard that doesn't yet exist.

SBNation has a profile on Turner. Naturally, Turner says some funny things about himself and his great talents. Some highlights:

"Sometimes, they [critics] forget you're human. And you start being looked at as an object more than as a person."

Turner's not mad, he's just more mature. He's not saying he's never rushed to label anyone, to judge anyone against an arbitrary notion of how things are supposed to be. "We've all made that mistake," he said. "It's ignorant, if anything."

"I've never been a three-point shooter," he said. "I don't ever want to be labeled as a three-point shooter at all because you're disposable. I've played with tons of ‘three-point shooters' who couldn't make threes [and] might not play for weeks or months. And that's only one part of the game. They couldn't guard, they couldn't pass, they couldn't dribble, they couldn't defend. I can do all that, fortunately enough."

"I think one thing that I did, where I messed up at, was [thinking], ‘Alright, I'm not good because I can't shoot threes,'" said Turner, who made just 22.4 percent of his three-point attempts last season. "It's like, no -- it's something I can get better at. I can do a lot of stuff that other people can't do. And I feel like people put thoughts in people's heads and sometimes people don't slow down and dissect what's really going on."

"I was putting too much pressure on myself," he said. "[Now], I just let the threes come to me and take the threes. I feel like before I was trying to go out and take threes and please people wanting me to be a three-point shooter."


Sounds like a guy who's pretty satisfied with the game he's playing this year. Sweet.

buke reply to Brian on Jan 10 at 17:47

Well, he doesn't look satisfied on the court. He looks desperate. Turner has had some really good games this year but he does not seem to handle slumps or psychological pressure too well. I was a fan of his in college and was elated the team picked him at the time, but I think I've had enough of the drama. I still believe that he can be a quality starter or sixth man in the league, but I'm doubtful about that happening in a Sixers' uniform. It's not Collins' fault or the team's fault. Sometimes a person's first big job just doesn't work out so well.

I'm ready to embrace the philosophy of Mae West and party like it's 1997-98. Mae famously said, "When given the choice between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before." In Brown's first year, 22 players made an appearance on the Sixers' roster. They started the year with Iverson, Coleman, Stackhouse, Jim Jackson, Weatherspoon, Eric Montrose, and Terry Cummings. By the end of the year, only Iverson and Coleman remained (and he wasn't around the next year) but they added Snow, Ratliff, and McKie. Fans were even treated to a month of Benoit Benjamin.

There's nothing to salvage here. I'd rather see a bunch of new faces finishing out a dismal season.

There was plenty of energy after the game as the teams exchanged heated words in the hallways behind the court as both were going to their locker rooms.

It all stemmed from a play with 15.6 seconds left and the Raptors with the ball, up 16. It certainly would appear to be a time when Toronto would hold the ball and run out the clock. Instead, guard Jose Calderon threw an alley-oop pass to Landry Fields, who threw down a dunk. Sixers coach Doug Collins stared down at the Raptors' bench, where, when the game ended, coach Dwane Casey waved at Collins. The Sixers coach didn't respond and a couple of minutes later, as the Sixers approached their locker room, words were exchanged.

In the Raptors' locker room, both Calderon and Casey said they wanted to apologize, saying they didn't know how much time was left.

So it was just Collins who was pissed? Like I said, I thought it might've been resolved on the floor. Maybe it will when the teams next meet, though I'm not sure who the Sixers' enforcer is, if they have one.

mymanjrue on Jan 10 at 18:16

sixers,go to t.o., keep jive alive

Cousins with a very ball-friendly 29, 9 and 4 on 14 shots (and a whopping 17 FTA). Cousins is the 7th youngest player since 1985 to have a 29/9/4 game with 17 FTA, after Durant, Brand, LeBron, Melo, Griffin, and Shaq. (He's also the 4th youngest player since 1985 to shoot 21 foul shots, after LeBron, Durant and Westbrook.) He had the assist on the three that sent the game to overtime. On the other hand, he ended his night getting ejected for a flagrant 2.

I really don't get the obsession with these age-related stats. Here's a better one, Jrue is the fourth-youngest player since 1985 to have a 33pt/13ast game. Lebron, Westbrook and Steph Curry. He's also never been suspended by his team or ejected from a game.

mymanjrue on Jan 11 at 3:51

honest feelings about turner-honestly, critics are being excessively harsh. i understand the impulse given his apparent lack of effort in recent games.

but turner is not going to be the best player on a team. when defenses can key on him he really struggles and becomes frustrated and stops making good decisions
had to remind myself that the reason i was excited about evan turner this season was that he'd be playing with bynum. there would be an elite offensive presence down low distracting the defense every time evan had the ball

i hope evan can recover mentally and have some decent games before bynum returns, and be ready to play a certain way with bynum...attacking, looking to get drew dunks or score depending on what the defense is doing...

get zen ev

I don't know how to break this to you, but defenses don't pay any attention to Turner right now. The next time he's doubled will be the first time. Basically, put an average defender on him one-on-one and let him dribble himself into a bad shot. The kicker is you don't even have to leave your feet most of the time to challenge his shot. Just don't give him a four-inch height advantage and you don't have to worry about that matchup as an opposing coach.

Morning Affirmation:

Fans of the Washington Wizards are jealous of you, Sixers fans. They believe the Sixers are good enough, smart enough, and, doggone it, people like them.

Today at practice the Sixers are going to take a risk and listen to Doug Collins again. "No more stinkin' thinkin'" is the rallying cry. After having watched their buddy, J-Rich, shockingly descend to decrepitude, they deserve some happiness.

The Rockets will spend themselves tonight on hanging with Celtics; will be a Cadillac Grille pork chop tomorrow night. Win number 16.

They have one starter descending to decrepitude, one aspiring to someday reach such a lofty height. Formula for success.

Owl or Buckeye?

I was referring to the Buckeye, but you could probably say the same about the Owl.

rockets play Boston tonight, so hopefully its close

Nice for the Sixers to be on the positive end of a scheduling quirk for once.

If they lose, Doug'll find a way to bitch about it - - too long a layoff, out of rhythm. Schedule, injuries, referees, overdone crust on Mom's pies, et al.

i would have used etc as opposed to et al but hey maybe that's just a stylistic choice.

Style choyce it iz, joeykey. Twomaydo and Tahmotto.

"Et al." is a scholarly abbreviation of the Latin phrase 'et alia', which means "and others." It is commonly used when you don't want to name all the people or things in a list, and works in roughly the same way as "etc."

- public.wsu.edu

He definitely seems to be coming a bit unhinged. I'm waiting for someone to make an animated .gif of the faces he makes on the bench during these terrible runs in the second half. He goes from looking like he wants to rip someone's head off to looking like he's completely detached, to looking like he's maniacally laughing and sarcastically telling his assistant coaches how disgusted he is.

That's entertaiment!! Bench behavior during last 2 is cause for concern, if not alarm.

You have that, plus if you were watching the OKC feed from that game, he cursed out Nick Young after he gave up an open three at the beginning of the fourth quarter. "We're trying to come back and you give him a fucking wide open three!"

Wish I could've seen him scowling at Dwane Casey after that alley oop the other night.

Quote: 'A' for accuracy, 'F' for interpersonal relations.

And he should look in mirror before yapping his trap. Runs shooters off the line like "Grandpappy Amos [McCoy], head of the clan; roars like a lion, but he's gentle as a lamb."

Loathe the footballish trend of "kneeling" at games end to preserve the tender feelings of an opponent. There's a 24 second clock. Gettin' paid big money for 48 minutes of effort. Too much to ask?

I'm glad Calderon and Landry worked a last second 'oop' past a doggin' N. Young. So it's decided. Play the game out. Give it the dignity it and the paying fans deserve. Kids and their helicopter coaches these days.

Collins' stiff walkout was hilarious; picayune primping. Hey coach, pick a real battle... like figuring out how to get your team to hustle throughout, play as one and enjoy their work.

Eh. I'm of the belief that when a team is rubbing it in, there are ways the players can and should police that on the floor. Collins' reaction should be to say to his own team "If you don't want that to happen, don't get blown out by the Raptors."

At the same time, I don't want my team rubbing it in someone else's face in that situation, mostly because the players should be policing those situations and that's how people get hurt.

That's OK. We disagree on that point. I'm for buzzer to buzzer effort; teams aren't even playing next to last 24 second segment.

I didn't take Raptors to be rubbing it in so much as Sixers saying whip me please, our coach does.

Yeah, that's fine. I guess what I'm saying is the response if they try an oop in that situation is to put the guy going up for a dunk on his ass. Fine, you want the points, earn 'em.

Hawaii Phil reply to Brian on Jan 11 at 14:11

Totally agree with Brian on this point. That's the attitude players should always have (worked for my team at YMCA games for years)... in fact, should never give up any easy baskets inside the paint... sends a message to the opponent that is the exact opposite of what the Sixers are doing lately.

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