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Keep Pouting, Evan

hes a free agent at the end of next year right?

cause in a perfect world with bynum, id prefer a 3 and D type wing to play with bynum

I'd prefer a 25-year-old Iguodala. Even a Matt Barnes type would be preferable to Turner. Yeah, his option for next year was picked up. $6.7M.

Good piece, Brian. I agree with almost all of your sentiments about his game, and thought you might have even gone a little light on how poor his defense, especially off the ball, has been. Only thing I disagree with is the broken jumper statement, because I think he can continue to shoot a decent percentage as strictly a spot-up guy. That's not a big deal, though. Where I think he's especially overachieved is running the point, because they haven't been a total disaster there (At least I imagine this judging from On-Off splits, don't have the exact numbers) even though he doesn't have to ability to consistently create quality shots.

I also wholeheartedly agree with how annoying his complaining is. Remember the play on Friday when Turner got lazy and Tyreke Evans picked him clean and went in for a layup? Of course ET complained about it, of course he got fouled in his mind. But that type of stuff doesn't do you any favors with refs. You're insulting their intelligence. And he's guilty of doing that a lot.

I do wonder if sometimes the lack of effort you're describing on the offensive end is him realizing his limitations. Like, I would prefer him not to shoot 20 times a game because it'll be a lot of 18-footers, but he plays hard when he does carry a larger scoring load. His inability to positively affect the game off the ball has been one of his major downfalls, because there's no in between with him. It's either a much less successful version of the Ohio State offense or stand in the corner and wait for the ball.

I think the general fan expectation of him still being a star weighs on him. He can't accept, or maybe just isn't programmed to affect the game in a positive way without a ton of shots. It's a shame, because he's clearly not good enough to take on the role he thinks he should have.

The corner threes have been a revelation. Pretty much every other jumper? Garbage. I guess I should say ugly instead of broken, as long as he can keep hitting those corner threes.

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Rich reply to Brian on Feb 5 at 17:45
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I think that is more an indictment on his inability to create easy shots for himself. This year has been different where people aren't playing five feet off of him and giving that shot up so easily. With Dre and Lou gone and the increased defensive attention that would go to them, he now has to work pretty hard to get that shot off. But I do think the shot has improved, even if it hasn't really been worth all that much.

How's it going, btw? You still at the same e-mail address? Been meaning to drop you a line.

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Rich reply to Brian on Feb 5 at 17:47
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Nah, my new one is on the comments if you can see it. I'm doing alright, too.

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mymanjrue reply to Rich on Feb 13 at 18:15
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well stated addition to brian's i must admit accurate post

Rod Thorn was just on DNL. i honestly had no idea he was still the team president. i wonder what his level of involvement actually is these days.

That's the first I've heard of him being around since he was "retired" last summer. Guess someone woke him up, or they brought back baby back ribs at chili's.

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Mike reply to Brian on Feb 5 at 17:41
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ha, same here. he provided literally no information whatsoever during the interview.

I feel the exact same way about Turner. I don't understand the people you continue to argue in favor of him. There has been enough of a sample size to determine what he is and that is he is an average NBA player.

Turner needs to be traded for his sake and the team's. His mental/emotional state has deteriorated to a place where it is detrimental to him and the team, his haphazard attention to defense this year is particularly troubling, and his skill set is fairly superfluous to this team at the moment anyway.

I have a more favorable opinion of his potential than you, and I don't think he's reached it, but I think his eventual potential is as a sixth man or glue guy type starter. He can do a lot of different things but few of them very well. But, in order to reach that potential, he has to adopt a more suitable mental paradigm for his place in the game. I have no idea of how he thinks of himself at this point and I can't claim he's delusional enough to think of himself as a franchise player, but whatever he's thinking isn't working.

I still think the Sixers could get something of value for him even if that player would also have some risk. There are always players around the league who haven't lived up to expectations and sometimes a change of scenery does some good. That seems to have helped Andre Blatche this year.

Turner needs to be traded for his sake and the team's. His mental/emotional state has deteriorated to a place where it is detrimental to him and the team, his haphazard attention to defense this year is particularly troubling, and his skill set is fairly superfluous to this team at the moment anyway.

Where does this fall in the 'let's make excuses for turner' bingo?

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buke reply to GoSixers on Feb 5 at 18:24
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Don't know but I do know that your question doesn't merit a serious reply. Do you have some kind of personality disorder that compels you to pick pointless online arguments? That was a rhetorical question. Do not feel compelled to reply.

Do you suppose you could justify your remote psychoanalysis of Evan Turner with facts? If so I could then take you seriously.

Baseless speculation does not need a serious response

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Tray reply to buke on Feb 5 at 18:28
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Maybe he's not delusional enough to think he's a franchise player, but he does say stuff like this:

"I don't ever want to be labeled as a three-point shooter at all because you're disposable. I've played with tons of ‘three-point shooters' who couldn't make threes [and] might not play for weeks or months. And that's only one part of the game. They couldn't guard, they couldn't pass, they couldn't dribble, they couldn't defend. I can do all that, fortunately enough."

Heh. Ironic that shooting threes is his best trait this season.

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buke reply to Brian on Feb 5 at 19:53
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Yes, and guarding and defending are among his worst. His dribbling has been almost as much of a curse as a blessing, too.

I have to just throw this out there...is there any chance that Turner just needs more time? He is certainly better than he was last year, and last year he was better than the year before that and so on. Everyone always siad he was a late bloomer. Is there a chance that he grows into just a more consistent version of his half way decent side. A consistent 16/7/6 without the bad turnovers and the pouting. Is there a chance that he learns where he can get his shots, and when and is patient about it? We would be dumping him right now. Who would you possibly get for him, no one! I think we need to see about him this time next year, and don't jump all over me, he makes me want punch something at least 65% of the time I watch him play. But i have to say, i cannot believe he is hitting a corner three. That came completely out of left field. With a super athletic 2, could he be at least a serviceable piece?

if not, what can you get for him? Can you trade him and take back a good player on a bad team with a terrible contract? Would you have done Turner for Gay? Or would the Grizzlies laugh in your face and slap you for good measure?

Memphis is one of the few teams where you really know what their front office is thinking (assuming Hollinger has a ton of say) because he's written about most guys in the league. His opinion of Turner was probably lower than mine, if that's possible.

I'm not saying you have to trade him right now. If there was a decent deal, I'd do it (I don't think there's a decent deal out there for him right now, though). What I'm saying is he's here. He needs to grow up and stop acting like a petulant little kid.

One trade that might be worth looking into is Turner for Derrick Williams. My bust #2 pick for your bust #2 pick. But then you're locked into a big rookie contract for another year. Here's a look at both guys through their first two years.

imo, Williams has more of a chance of turning into something, but it's probably not that likely. First step for him is to get into better shape.

Turner is better and will be better than Williams. Williams can't guard any position in the NBA at all. And offensively he doesn't do anything exceptionally well. I wouldn't do that deal.

What position can Turner guard?

He's had a ton of mental lapses all year long, especially off the ball, but he is still light years better than Williams. The league is full of players that defend like Turner (somewhere between mediocre and average), but Williams has been completely lost on that end of the floor.

I haven't seen a ton of Williams. I'd be willing to give him a shot. I think Turner's worth less than his production, which is piss poor.

Well, to put it simple from the little that i've seen (i haven't seen a ton this year due to Rubios and Loves injuries to be honest), Williams simply doesn't have nearly the required lateral quickness to guard on the perimeter which is why he has to be a PF. And as a PF he is badly overmatched in every imaginable aspect.

Think of him as Thad with Lavoy's motor and without Thad's ability to hit all kinds of shots around the basket.

I don't think motivation and giving a "crap about the team" are really his issues. I just think that he expects more from himself and he is too hard on himself when he fails. The problem is instead of hustling to make up for his failure, he keeps living in the last and being incapable to accept that the play is over and you have to continue with the game like nothing has happened. There are three possible outcomes with this situation IMO:

1. He learns how to deal with his failure as he grows older.
2. He stops being so hard on himself after being traded to a team whose fanbase won't be after him as much.
3. He completely falls apart mentally and is out of the league within 3-4 years.

To sum it up: He plays hard, but loses focus when he fails in any aspect in the game.

Do you really believe this fan base is after him? I've never seen a guy get more slack in Philly.

Not everyone is, but there are plenty of people (like you and a lot of others on this blog for example) that have an extremely low opinion on him. Yes there are still plenty who think he is the messiah but it only takes one group of what he would experience as "haters" to have his "too hard on himself" type of problems.

Bottomline, i think, his game is not a problem, but his mental weakness is. And despite wanting to win, he doesn't have the mentality of a winner right now.

Yeah, he doesn't look like a guy who's too hard on himself to me. He looks like a guy who thinks he deserves things he hasn't earned, so he pouts when he doesn't get them. Like a child. Either way, whether he's shattered because he can't compete on this level like he wants to, or he's just petulant, it makes him unwatchable and even less effective than he could be, which is pretty much average.

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buke reply to Xsago on Feb 5 at 21:59
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I agree with you that his primary problems seem to be mental, but I also think those things would be more difficult to turn around if he remains here.

I still think he has some trade value although the size of his contract is a bit of a disincentive. As long as he gets his head in reasonable condition, he's not a big risk player. He only has one guaranteed season after this one. He might not have a very high ceiling, but, given that he can do a lot of things (when he stays focused), he may not have a very low floor, either.

Looks like the Pacers are going to win game 1 and game 2 of their 3-in-a-row.

Big minutes for David West and Paul George in both games. George Hill, too, sort of. Hibbert played 30 minutes in both games.

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 5 at 22:57
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Out of curiosity, I checked and found that Indiana had two back-to-back-to-backs last season and won the third game in both. Beat the Nets by five at home and the Bucks by 21 at Milwaukee. Bucks were 22-25 at the time. I'll predict that Indiana ekes out a low-scoring win, though Indiana is having a hot stretch offensively.

the rockets have 97 points with 307 left in the 3rd quarter

Turner has improved this year. His points per shot and A/T are both improved. I don't think its just the improved 3, he taking less long twos. Hi

On the downside, he hasn't filled in Iggy's shoes as far as defense or ball handling. He hasn't handled the extra responsibility on both ends of the floor well. Its his third year in the league, a and his basketball IQ still seems to be fairly low. Losing his man, not making the right rotations, dribbling too much not executing pick and rolls, ect.

So yeah, he has gotten better this year, but his mental mistakes, after two years of slowly being brought along, are frustrating.

Saying Turner has improved really isn't saying much. In terms of scoring efficiency, he's basically gone from a .150 hitter to a .180 hitter, in baseball terms. His 3pt percentage and free throw percentages have both improved dramatically, while his overall FG% has dropped. His assists are up a hair (more than his turnovers are up, which is good), but not nearly as much as you'd expect considering his role. There really hasn't been much growth at all from last season in terms of production, he's just playing more minutes.

This isn't about his production, though. His usage rate hasn't risen much. He's not completely submarining the offense. This about how he checks out when things aren't going his way.

Turner has about a 2/1 A/T ratio and is averaging 4.5 assists in his 36 mpg. His excellent rebounding has been commented on. It seems his main problem (besides esoteric "mental toughness" concerns) is his shot, but he has been a very good 3 pt shooter this year. His defense isn't great, but I wouldn't say it is as horrendous as you're making it out to be. Yeah, this guy probably shouldn't have been a number two pick in a weak draft but it's not like he's terrible. He has been inconsistent, putting up some really terrible games, but he has also had some brilliant ones. I'm curious, how many times did you give him the POTG this year?

No idea on POTG. I used to keep track on the schedule, but don't have the time this year.

He's had about 5 really good games, maybe another 5 above average, and about 25 really shitty games. If you isolate the stats, it's not just that he shoots bad in his shitty games, everything suffers in the same amount of minutes. That's not the case if the effort is consistent.

Here are my thoughts:

Regarding Evan Turner's production (and abilities), you are pretty much spot on as usual. No arguments there. I would love to trade him if we could get even 60 cents on the dollar because he won't ever amount to what we need him to be with that pick.

Regarding his behavior, for a second I thought I was reading about Lindsay Lohan's antics on her latest movie set. His body language is bad sometimes and he complains to the refs too much, but that's pretty much it. From what I can tell his teammates and coaching staff all like and respect him so I think this portion of your post is a bit exaggerated. He's a really good kid off the court and I'm a little tired of you and some others around here making him out to be some kind of a diva. God forbid he doesn't publicly state that he's a bust and hasn't (or can't) live up to the expectations of a #2 pick. I also don't think you should call someone a child while posting some childish bullshit like this.

You see the thing is, i don't care if he complains to the refs, behaves like a diva, has bad body language or is a great kid off the court. Doing those stuff instead of running back on defense and being focused on the game and hustling 100% of the time is a problem though. And unless he fixes that, Turner will never amount to anything. That's by far his biggest problem. His defense is fixable, his efficiency ditto and he is a far better playmaker than most backup PGs. But he has to focus on his game all the time he is on the court, rather than focusing how good he is.

I don't think I called for Turner to come out and say he blows. All I asked is that he stow the attitude and show consistent effort. He hasn't and he doesn't. I could care less if he's a great kid off the floor, he's petulant when he's on it, and it hurts the team when he pouts on the floor and stops trying, for lack of a better term. If you think he's busting his ass out there and he just complains once in a while, you and I have very different observations of what's going on.

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MCT reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 11:09
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"I really have a hard time stomaching is his attitude. For some reason, this guy thinks he's God's gift to the game, and when things aren't going his way, he makes a point of showing everyone just how unfairly he's being treated. Enough."

Sorry, that's taking it a bit further than referencing his attitude on the court.

Yeah, I was talking about his attitude on the court. Don't know, or really care, if he's super-positive when he's home ordering Domino's.

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MCT reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 14:21
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I don't remember him ever saying that he is God's gift to the game while on the court, maybe it was sign language or he mimed it?

In any event, I'm sure he gives a shit that a fan doesn't like his attitude and feels the need to blog about it.

So if you demean the blogger who expresses his opinion about something what does that say about the person who feels the needs to take shot at him with crude juvenile language?

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MCT reply to GoSixers on Feb 6 at 14:31
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Said blogger often uses "crude juvenline language" especially when he disagrees with someone else's opinion, do you ever say anything about it then?

Said blogger doesn't really swear at people, though I will sometimes call people morons (though I try to avoid that as well).

I do wonder why you've taken my criticism of Evan Turner so personally, though.

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MCT reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 15:26
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The reason it bothers me is because people used to do this with Iguodala all the time. They would exaggerate how bad his body language was on the court, they would call him a whiner, they would accuse him of being a bad teammate for calling out other players for mistakes on the floor (even though no teammate or coach ever said this about him). They did it because they didn't like him, for whatever reason. In Turner's case his play has been bad enough and deserves criticism, but I don't think this other stuff does. He's not a diva, and the person you wrote about here sure sounds like one. But I'm not going to change your mind obviously so no need to go on about it. We disagree about his attitude, we can end it there.

And for the record I don't care that you swear or call people morons, GoSixers needs to be more consistent if he has a problem with anyone doing so however.

With Iguodala it was nonsense because he obviously wasn't dogging it out there and never just checked out of games if things weren't going his way. With Turner, it's not just poor body language, it's the fact that he checks out and goes through the motions when things aren't going his way, and it happens all the time.

I hope it doesn't happen tonight, but the next time he's having a bad game, just watch for the hustle plays that happen near him on the floor. A loose ball. A long rebound that hits the floor. Even a close out on a three. When he's pouting, he doesn't get on the floor for the ball, he doesn't hustle to get the long board and he half-heartedly closes out. When he's beat, he doesn't even try to recover. He makes half-assed moves and begs for whistles. When things are going well, he's aggressive on both ends, there's no reason besides attitude for that aggression to disappear when his shot isn't falling, or he isn't getting enough shots/whistles. That's my point. Consistent effort level isn't too much to ask.

It would be kind of sad if he gave a shit what I said about him on this blog. Probably 50/50 he's crying into a pint of Ben & Jerry's right now sobbing, "Why are they so mean to me? I was National Player of the Year?"

It's be interesting to run a national player of the year / nba career comparison - maybe :)


to be concise; this is just a rant.
I dont disagree with most of what was said.
But to make the argument that Turner lacks effort, you can't cite the one part of the game he really does well in and then trash him for only being able to do that.
His demeanor and body language are so putrid that it seems to have turned fans away from him so much that even his successes cannot be celebrated.
For example, a 3-12 night from Jrue on game thread will be quite benign and respectful while a 4-12 from ET will be filled with cursing and misogynistic trash. While I know both players differ in responsibilities so it is not analogous, personal bias plays a role in looking at his 'shit' production.

My contribution: The most disturbing thing about Turner is his disappearance from game to game. Particularly when Holiday was out for 4-5 games. His inability to show up from game to game (and this does not depend on the athleticism or capability of his defender) is probably due to some combination of poor conditioning and lack of mental focus. The maddening inconsistency of his games is unacceptable. Before this season, you could still blame it on preparation but that excuse is gone. I fear the answer and hope it can be fixed. That, rather than humility, is what I think holds him back from contributing as he should, to this team.

I still like what I see with Turner and Jrue playing off each other. Label me a Turner fan club member, but I still like his game; off-ball defense and body language notwithstanding.

Just to play devil's advocate, don't you think a guy in his third season being in poor condition is a sign of a sense of entitlement?

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jay reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 8:56
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No because by Collins statements as well as reporters, Turner is the "hardest working" guy during the offseason. He's got a bad body and mediocre athleticism. Feel like that's genetics, not a lack of working.

Yeah, there's a big disconnect there for me. A 24-year-old who really works hard shouldn't have conditioning issues. If he does, he's working really hard on the wrong things.

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mymanjrue reply to Brian on Feb 13 at 18:22
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personally i think dc calling him the hardest working guy translates into "he is actually the guy struggling most with his work ethic but im gonna pump him up to the media because i'm doug collins"

lol Dalembert had 35 points last night off the bench, murdered his career high

The Evan show is getting old, I agree. I am interested in what his trade value would be at this point. Any chance Turner, Hawes, and Dorell would get us Pau? Give the Pau and Bynum show another chance, but without Kobe giving them both fits. Pau comes off the books in a year. Jrue starts averaging 12+ assists a game with two big men that can finish and understand how to play the pick and roll.

Thoughts?

I'd do it. I don't see why the Lakers would, though, unless they're really high on Turner or think Hawes would fit D'Antoni's system better than Pau.

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Exile on Kenny Payne Street on Feb 6 at 9:04
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By reading this blog, you would think that Evan Turner couldn't play a lick. Worst player in the league and should be traded for a low second round pick. It's pretty unbelievable. He's not worth a second overall pick. At this point it's irrelevant where he was drafted.

That being said, he needs to be more mature, so we agree there. I don't want to play armchair psychiatrist and speculate on his mental state because that's just pointless. But from a fan's perspective, I would like to see less whining.

I really don't think it's a question of effort, though. Rebounding is all about effort and he does that very well for a SF. Nor do I think he's terribly out of shape. I don't think he looks overly tired at the end of games and he plays a fair share of minutes. He's just not very athletic so maybe the perception is he's in poor condition.

I think the problem is that he plays like one of the worst players in the league over half the time. And in those games, he doesn't even rebound very well (5.4/game) in 34 minutes.

In the games where he's below average or better, he averages 7.8.

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Exile on Kenny Payne Street reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 9:39
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I would love to see him be more consistent, too. However, in a lot of his games where he plays like one of "the worst players in the league" he isn't putting up a lot of shots. I think he recongizes his limitations more than you give him credit for. If he had such a huge sense of entitlement he would be taking more shots. But I don't see him as a ball hog, not in the least.

Yep, he takes fewer shots. Either that's humility, or that's him disengaging on both ends of the floor. The fewer shots is a blessing, the whining and giving lackluster effort on defense and on the boards is a curse.

That's probably why Doug often benched him last year - the pouty attitude.

Now, he doesn't really have a choice (although I still think he does), since this roster has much less depth.

We are FAVORED by 3 tonight. I know they are on a b2b2b but that is a joke...

b2b2b against a rested team? Basically a pick 'em on a neutral court. Sounds about right. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

Wasn't there some weird stat last year that teams did really well on game 3 of b2b2b? Prob just a small sample size, but I thought I remember reading about it.

Yeah, they were 2-0 last year (Tray looked it up). Still has to be an advantage for the Sixers with a day of rest since their last game.

pacers have the top Defensive Efficiency, cant settle for jumpers, rather see hibbert block everything then watch all the long 2's

Yeah. 1st in DFR, 25th in OFR. 75-70 game, maybe (but they've been much better offensively lately).

tonight might be a good game to dust wright off, hes the only one with a chance to slow down george

Wish he'd find his stroke again, 6/27 from three (22.2%) over his past 11 games.

him not hitting shots is still better then wilkins, at least wright is a threat

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Mike reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 9:51
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they've been killing it on the offensive end lately. George, West, Stephenson have been lighting it up. their defense has actually gotten worse during that stretch though.

they have a really good record against the top teams in the league. i think they have a chance to really make a run this postseason.

You always have a chance w/ a dominant defense. Wonder if Granger messes things up when he gets back.

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Mike reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 10:12
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yea should be really interesting to see how/if they try to integrate him. i think they're one of the most likely teams to make a big trade too.

They had a dominant defense last year as well with Granger. I don't think he will create problems for them, but he won't improve them either. I wouldn't be surprised if they traded him.

As a Turner supporter, Id like to give some other angles here. I do agree with pretty much everything you said,. Good post. I always do get frustrated when i see him complaining but I got frustrated when iverson and other players complained too.

As far as Turners potential, I dont agree this is known. I like to think in terms of mathematical lower bounds. I guess this migjht be called a floor as it's basically the oppositr of what nba analysts call a ceiling.This is the same reason I argued vucevic would be good. When I look at turner, I feel like the minimum is a great rebounder, very good dribbler, good defender, suddenly a good 3 point shooter, and i even like passing ability. I really don't care to argue if you think he's a bad passer, but to quickly explain my reasoning is simply based on ability to make a good pass when he knows what to do. The problem and weakness I see is that he doesn't always seem to know what to do.

My theory here goes back to my days in high school. I always hated playing small forward because I didn't feel like the role was clearly defined, basically run around possibly in a play and if they pass you the ball then you can briefly run the offense if someone happens to be cutting or open for a shot, or you can just put it up right away which doesnt utilize the shot clock. Center and point guard both have a,much clearer role in my opinion. The center is always trying to fight for positioning, or rebound or set screens. The center and pg always have clear prominent roles, which isnt as true for the,other positions.

In my opinion Evan still seems unsure of what his exact job is. A few weeks ago Jrue called Evan the teams "go-to scorer" i believe, but when evan gets the ball he doesnt seem want to go 1 on 5 like kobe or lebron. He tries and he gets to his spot, but his shots get blocked...

...
Some players succeed at positions 2 through 5. Role players. LeBron. Teams with detailed plays that practically say what to do every second. If Evan is going to succeed in one of these positions I think he needs collins to basically tell him what to do every second because I'm not sure he really knows what to do. If his "dribbling the air out of the ball" is such a bad idea then Collins needs to say specifically where to dribble and what to do. This might seem obvious to some but I think this is Evans problem. I also believe he could have found more success as a points guard, which is where he found success in college, but a number of things interfered with that. First he was held back by collins (in the same way vuc was held back). He still doesnt see consistent action at the position which is hard for a lot of players. With Jrue being the primary point guard it doesnt make sense for evan to try to expand his PG role, or experiment with how he runs the offense, or create an offensive around his strenghs. This might make sense if the team really wants him to play a lot of minutes there, and if they can handle different styles, but at the very least this is not easy to do without being the primary guard.

Overall I believe that evan still has a lot of strenghs that you can't take away from his game. If you give him the right tools and get him making the right plays, he's physically capable. Im starting to take goSixers side and blame collins.

So what you're saying is that you think Evan's basketball IQ is approaching zero and he needs to be told what to do every moment he's on the court?

If that's actually the case then he's useless because he requires too much energy from the coach and the staff

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Greg reply to GoSixers on Feb 6 at 12:05
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Actually more like saying that he's too smart to want to play whimsical basketball. If he was a football player he'd never have this problem. If he was a basketball point guard or center he'd never have this problem. This may be more a complaint against the sixers offense and expecting a guy to just take over, whereas most professionals study their trade, have meetings where they plan their exact roles. Im sure he has idea but in basketball it' all too common for a coach to just expect guys to do whatever they want. In my opinion this is a team game and therefore doing whatever you want doesnt work very well.

p.s. the first line in the second part of my original post should have read 2 to 4, not 2 to 5.

Collins never struck me as a whimsical coach. My impression is that he swings the other way. You might be right in terms of production. Maybe if he was a point guard from day one his game would've progressed beyond this point by now. I don't think so, but it's an argument you can make. As far as not fitting into his current role, I've never seen much of an effort on his part to do that. One example is his steadfast refusal to hustle down the floor when the Sixers secure a defensive rebound. The most he'll do is sort of jog up the wing, a step or two ahead of Jrue. Most of the time, he still comes back looking for an outlet (and steals the outlet sometimes when the big doesn't realize who he's passing the ball to).

Anyway, we're getting back into excuses for his poor play, rather than the fact that his attitude impacts his effort level when things aren't going his way.

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Greg reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 13:26
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I'm sure his defense is not whimsical, and his base offense is probably not whimsical. Often in basketball offenses they only go so far and after the ball gets to the center or small forward (for example) the offense kind of shuts down and becomes whimsical.

The problem mostly applies to the small forward. The 2 and 4 positions are not as bad as they overlap with the point guard and center. In my opinion small forward is by far the worst. If Evan were to play point guard with no set offense, at least he would have many opportunities to look for cutters and other weaknesses in the defense. Perhaps this is why he dribbles the air out of the ball.

He does seem lazy or out of shape at times, and I cant argue with that. On the other hand, i'm not so sure sprinting his fastest down the court is always necessary unless theres a strong fast break opportunity. He goes after defensive rebounds himself, which doesn't really leave him in position. Nevertheless I believe there are examplee where he is lazy or out of shape. If he fixes these problems that would only improve his game. He is said often to be one of the hardest workers off the court, which leaves me wondering why we don't get the same impressions on the court.

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Soo long, sorry on Feb 6 at 11:53
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Back to Turner's thread...
What I see from ET right now is an average NBA player, with a high skill set potential but he needs to work his butt off to achieve it, and below average NBA athleticism that he under uses it, unless for defensive rebounding.
The complete skill set potential and some of his psychological tests were what did make him get drafted as n.2. Not the athletic ability. He improved his jump shot and this is one skill that one can honey more with time and hard work. He understands he needs a J to survive in the NBA, so I don't need to go there. He could improve and get a tighter handle, this would help him be more efficient. He can make plays for others but he needs to be more careful and assertive with his passes, that would drop the TOs. Comes with time and maturing as a player.
The defensive part I think he puts more effort on ball, specially when guarding good players, the last game against the knicks he was the most efficient defender against Melo. His lateral speed is not good, but isn t any worse than Battier's, he needs to learn angles and tendencies, study the scouting report. And quit the I can stop anyone bravado, that don't cut in the NBA.
One important part, he underuses his limited athleticism to a fault. Turner is not less athletic than Nash, Deron, Joe Jonhson or prime time Billups or Roy. I 've had see Turner get rebounds over 7 footer's, that was when Collins limited his ball handling duties to the rebounds he could get. Man, the kid were killing opponents and foes to get the God damn ball ! But when you see Turner going to the rack, unless his alone on a break he goes half speed. When another player comes to him, you just can see he slowing a bit and jumps equal, trying to get some contact but because he jumped so half hearted the space he creates is minimum, the drama of the hit gets unnoticed and he gets no call. Turner dribbling in traffic is quicker than someone like Iggy for example (cool off Brian, I will explain it). Iggy 's is way more athletic than ET, his handle is good but not fluid enough to allow him to use his athleticism full throttle in traffic. ET got the handle and some athletic ability but don t go full throttle for other issues. When he thinks to much and is not instinctive, his limited athleticism can t save him when in trouble. For me he still got the unconscious fear of his fall at OSU. One thing is to allow by will yourself to play if your body is function right but anyone that has had a painful accident knows your body fear to past throw it again, and rather slow someone down, you just don't know you are going 80% of what you can. With 80% of average athleticism in the NBA you can t get by many folks. Just see Dwight, he says he is 75 to 80 %, he is a 7 ft and one of the most athletic big man of all time, he s playing like an average to above average center, but just because there aren t any good centers anymore.

so Brian does this mean we can at least quarantine all of the ET bitching in this thread?

Going to be pretty hard to keep it out of the game thread. Feel like I need an outlet when I'm watching him jog around out there.

Going back to 1990, it's a mixed bag:

Stars: Durant, Blake Griffin, Tim Duncan, Shaq (wasn't consensus)

Legit Players: Redick, Bogut, Jameer, D. West (wasn't consensus), Brand, Camby

Busts: Turner, Fredette, Hansbrough, Jason Williams, Battier (eh, sort of), Kenyon Martin, Jamison, Joe Smith, Glenn Robinson, Calbert Cheaney, Laettner, Lionel Simmons.

Too early to tell w/ Anthony Davis. Some of those busts are only busts relative to the expectations.

Where did Bogut go to college again? I'm looking at this list and thinking 'not a lot of big 10 players in there)

Utah.

The only 'immediate' big 10 players to me were evan turner and robinson, right?

Cheaney, right?

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buke reply to GoSixers on Feb 6 at 15:45
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Calbert Cheaney played at Indiana - for four years, too.

Here are the other guys who won one of the awards in the non-consensus years:

Larry Johnson
Ed O'Bannon
Shawn Respert
Jay Williams (the year before he won it)
Drew Gooden
Nick Collison
T.J. Ford
Emeka Okafor
Adam Morrison
John Wall (Turner wasn't consensus, apparently)
Draymond Green

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buke reply to Brian on Feb 6 at 19:25
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Now, Ed O'Bannon and Adam Morrison, those are two guys who could have their pictures next to the word "bust" in the dictionary. And Respert is too far from them. Most of those other guys mentioned contributed something of value over their careers. Jay Williams, of course, is a special case in that medical problems terminated his career.

Right, He just didn't stand out to me for some reason - he was a less remarkable NBA player than Turner so far.

Are there really 3 big 5 guys on that list?

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buke reply to GoSixers on Feb 6 at 19:36
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He had a fair NBA career. Played well over a decade I think and probably averaged double figures for about half of his career.

Brian, you couldn't be more spot on imo. For the people doubting that Turner is consistently out of shape. It's something that has dogged him going back to college. He is also the definition of a fair weather player. If he gets off to a bad start it almost always snowballs into a really bad game. He does cry to the referees too much and he does blame other people for defensive mishaps. I see it all the time he starts pointing at someone else half the time after he gets beat for a bucket its right there on the TV! Most of us here are big time seventy sixers fans we want this team to succeed. We don't "hate" Evan Tuner we just aren't blind to the facts. I pray every day that somehow there is another gear that Evan can reach to raise his game another notch or two and that he gets a little more mature. Right now I see an immature kid who is borderline out of shape for a NBA player and who lacks the athlectic ability or skills needed to be more then a marginal starter on a mediocre team or a 6-7 man on a good one. Thats not an acceptable outcome for a number 2 pick.


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