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Facing A Tanker's Delight

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Sharone Wright on Feb 26 at 9:27
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Going to the game tonight with clients. I am a lifelong Sixers fan, but tonight, I will be one of those people who drink, eat and schmooze and barely watch the game from a fancy made-for-corportate-America box. I always hated those people, but the Sixers have beaten me into apathy again.

Enjoy yourself. I'm predicting extended burn for Wilkins and a token appearance by Kwame (if he's still on the team). 50/50 whether Moultrie plays.

Given the depleted roster and serious downtrending of tonight's opponent, win number 23 is expected, which places some psychological pressure on a team that doesn't handle it all that well, save Thad "The Ever-Moving Yellowjacket" Young. Thus, tonight's outcome is in some doubt, even without having to face tough-as-nails nemesis Jameer Nelson, Chester Clipper.

Hark, the rebounding shoulders of Vucevic, the lateral quickness of young Harkless! At least Collins will be able to pine without research.

The bigger issue of course is Bynum, The Big Fake. Regarding that imported load, borrowing from a popular TV commercial of GM's glory days: Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?

not sure any Buicks are out there to be had, but a certain Old School Chevy is certainly missed inside this year no?

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Sharone Wright reply to das411 on Feb 26 at 12:57
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Definitely. He played solid defense, even against bigger guys, and always worked hard.

and they had him miked up during that Mavs/Laker game and he was shouting out assignments while on D the entire time...it must be damn near impossible to quantify but this team sure could use some of that this year...

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Hobbes reply to Dollar Bill on Feb 26 at 15:03
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I'd rather a bike or a bus pass than to shell out millions for some jalopy whose missed a third of his career to injuries and now has knees with no cartilage in them. For reasons that I can't grasp, others here feel differently. I guess some just yearn for the good 'ol days when a quarter of our team salary was devoted to folks like Weber.

The reasons aren't really that hard to grasp. Without Bynum, they're garbage unless a miracle happens. With him, they've got the foundation for a contender. So if you think it's more likely that you'll win the lottery (in a year when there's actually a star in the draft) than it is Bynum will be able to put together a couple of relatively injury-free seasons, then you lean toward not re-signing him. If you think there are better odds w/ the bird in hand, then you're probably in favor of re-signing him. No wrong answer, just conjecture at this point. I fall on the re-sign him side, because I think they're more likely to either flail around looking for a superstar some other way or pay too much money for a marginal guy who won't move the needle. I'd rather spend the money and have it wind up being a waste on a shot at contention than save the money and chase (more of) a pipe dream in the draft or free agency.

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Hobbes reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 15:20
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Nobody knows, of course. But looks like a dead bird in that hand you speak of. Or, at least, a bird with wings that no longer work.

Is there no evidence to suggest that top tier players occasionally follow the money?

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Hobbes reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 15:21
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Nobody knows, of course. But looks like a dead bird in that hand you speak of. Or, at least, a bird with wings that no longer work.

Is there no evidence to suggest that top tier players (er, healthy top tier players) occasionally follow the money?

They almost always follow the money. That's why they rarely change teams via free agency. The team that owns their bird rights can always offer the most money. The top tier guys available this summer are CP3, Howard and Bynum. The following year, you've got Kevin Love possibly opting out and LeBron. Love is a possibility, but I'm not sure you can build a contender around a maxxed-out Kevin Love. I'd love to have him, but Love on a max deal + Jrue + Thad + this year's pick? I don't know.

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Hobbes reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 15:54
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I'd be satisfied with landing a second-tier FA.

Al Jefferson? Josh Smith? Paul Millsap? I don't know the list of all the free agents, so I can't say. Or what various kinds of horse trading might yield. I just have my eyes and my guts, all of which render me disinclined to sign Bynum and anxious to get rid of Turner by way of anything that's even marginally attractive.

Don't anyone forget out there, we ain't got no more amnesty clauses to use. Sign Bynum and then learn he's destined for a glue factory, we're paying for him till the contract ends.

so you'd rather have a second-tier overpaid leftover than a guy who, if and when he's right, is easily the best at his position?

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Hobbes reply to das411 on Feb 26 at 17:01
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Yes, because I do not believe there's much to the "when" part you reference. I've got Bynum's career history on my side, along with a year of queasy reports about his knees.

Bynum is 'easily' the best at his position? You can argue that he's the best - but Dwight is in the conversation

No amnesty, but you do have the stretch provision, which makes it a little easier to stomach if you need to pull the eject lever.

they won't have enough money for Smith this summer unless they clear some cap space. the problem I have w/ the second-tier guys at this point is you have an incomplete team and they're going to lock you in to what you have. It's different if you have the key ingredients and go over the cap/into the tax to bring in a second tier guy, but getting one of those guys before you have that piece in place makes it much harder to acquire that piece at a later date. Damned near impossible.

anyway, it's an impossible situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I just feel like they've been damned if you don't for quite some time, might as well take the shot.

and they've already done the hard part, just have to lock the guy up and get him on the court...without rushing him back and making it worse, otherwise known as the Lindros

When I tried to mention Vucevic was playing "solid" ball two months ago you argued otherwise.

Two month ago his TS% was south of .500. He's picked up his efficiency.

Here's an awesome scenario for you. The Sixers win the lottery, draft Nerlens. Then they trade Thad and Lavoy for Rondo. Then they re-sign Bynum...can you think of anyone else coming off knee problems they could hoard?

Glad to see the old you back - all that optimism was disheartening

It's there every year, until I can't muster it anymore. I'm still not rooting for a tank, though. Feel so dirty rooting for losses.

I would never expect you to root for a tank but you had 'serious' optimism (it seemed) this off season that the team was headed towards the 'upper echelons' of the east...now you've seemed to accept that the first round and done (barring catastrophic injury to an opponents star player) is really the best this can ever be :)

Well, without Bynum they aren't going to be any better than that. They could be w/ him, if...

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 17:45
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Jrue for Eric Gordon.

That could work, but I'd prefer to put a group of invalids around Jrue. If Taj Gibson's sprain had been a tear, he would've been an ideal candidate.

Granger might be a good fit. Has he come back yet?

yes went 1-10

In 19 minutes. Busy guy.

Bynum giving a rehab update shortly, apparently. (crossing my knees in anticipation)

Please be sure (someone) to get a picture of his hair at the moment - really the most interesting thing about him

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 18:17
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"Bynum is progressing in his rehab, he may or may not play this season, and I cannot give a definite timetable for his recovery. Also we do not regret the Bynum trade, we made this trade knowing the risks involved"

Collins? Or your guess?

Sounds like something the GM would say don't it?:)

A few things:

1. It is interesting to see how winning teams completely (and intentionally) fall of a cliff when they lose their superstar. Look at the year after Lebron, CP3 and Dwight left their original teams. Of course that was not the case when the Sixers traded away AI. They went on to win more games becasue the team's desire not to rebuild. The franchise has not recovered from that "3 year plan."

2. The only thing that keeps me remotely interested in this franchise is the who "move the needle" mentality. Although there are several ways in which the Bynum saga can go down as a disaster, at least they will go down swinging. While the absolute last thing I want to see is a return to locking up a bunch of decent second level players to big contracts ensuring the team wins 40-45 games for the forseeable future.

So I worry that "Plan B" is signing guys like Milsap, Smith Pek. I have nothing against those players, but they are the types that can put a very good team (with an estabblished superstar) over the top. But they only can carry a team so far when they are asked to be the co-best player alsong with Jrue- who is a developing second level star in his own right.

So plan B has to involve some sort of retry at the Bynum trade. Make moves that bring in a young, promising big and if you can't find one then limit you signings to short, tradeable deals. They have Jrue for a long time. It would be great to be good sooner than later, but if it takes 2 years of rebuilding then that is preferrable to a move that "does not move the needle."

Not sure you can properly tank w/ Jrue and Thad on the roster. So the only viable option for a plan B is to bide your time for another opportunity. Do you think adding Love in 2014 would be a big enough move?

Do they keep Bynum and add love or just add love?

The Lebron back to Cleveland hype has already started - man that's going to suck next season - already tired of it

Just add love. He's their plan B. Love, Jrue, Thad + a lottery pick this season and next. Does that "move the needle?" I don't think so.

Define move the needle - does it get them to win the division and maybe with a first round series - probably - does it get them to the ECF - not likely

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Feb 26 at 18:53
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I'd say a player whose presense on the floor markedly moves the team closer to contension. In the case of a healthy Bynum it is a combination of his individual skill set and the ripple effect of how this effects his teammates play and the willingness of FA to want to come to Philly.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 18:27
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The team is 21-23 when Jrue and Thad both play, so you are probably right. But I don't mean "tank" as much as tread water while accumulating tradable assets. That way tou are in position to make the next "Bynum deal" when the opportunity presents itself.

I don't care if they win 30 or 40 games- as long as they don't have the equivalent of Elton Brand or Abndre Miller tied up to long term deals. I have no problem with signing guys under 25 to long term deals, as you can always trade them (se Iggy as an example.) By I detest paying guys long term big deals who are on the wrong side of 30 if you team is not a contender.

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 18:29
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Love can't opt out of his contract until 2015. Are you assuming that they'll make a trade?

No. Just had the year wrong. He could be a trade target a year early, though.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 18:31
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I am probably the wrong person to ask about Love. I think he is a unique player but not a "needle mover." Really top stars win even alongside weak supporting casts (see Dwight and Lebron." While I'd put Love at the very top of the list of second teir stars who when teamed with a top player put you over the top. Jrue probabaly falls towards the bottom of that second teir list- so combining the two does not get you anywhere.

While a healthy Bynum probably is towards the bottom of the fiorst teir list. so combine him with Jrue and Love and you have a contender.

The Sixers owe 2 first rounders in the coming years. That makes it even hatrder to build from good to great if their plan B winvolved adding a second teir star.

If they re-sign Bynum and it works out, however, they do have a bunch of movable assets to add a second-tier star. Turner, Hawes, Kwame, Lavoy are all expiring. Thad is on a very movable contract. They could get something done next summer, maybe for a guy like Love if that situation falls apart again.

I also think they've got some positional flexibility. I hate seeing it with Pargo and Turner on the ball, but Jrue looks like he can excel at either the point or at the two guard if they wanted to add a second tier PG to the mix.

81 minutes and change w/ Jrue and Pargo on the floor together. As a team, they're -7.4 points/100 possessions, which is terrible.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Feb 26 at 18:49
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To be fair, that is his first minutes on a new team- so it could get better. Pargo does bring some skills that take a bunch of stress off of Jrue for the minutes he is on the floor. That could translate to a more productive Jrue over the course of an enttire game.

I'm not saying Pargo is an NBA player, but a player like Pargo aloows Jrue to be on the floor without actually carrying the team on every possession (while having to chase the quickes guard on the opposition.)

there's a PG out there willing to work cheap...fits in any system...would give us that fake "superstar" and would "move the needle" - http://tinyurl.com/b2nanly

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Stan reply to tk76 on Feb 26 at 18:56
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Those picks are lottery protected. I know Jrue wasn't a lottery pick but I just don't put much value in those picks. You'd be lucky to get a quality role player with a non lottery pick.

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tk76 reply to Stan on Feb 26 at 19:02
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I agree. My point is taht is they add a guy like Milsap and end up being a #6 seed, then they will be mediocre and not have 1st round picks to add talent or make trades. So the worst of all worlds.

And Milsap is 28, so in the back end of a deal you have a guy making big money on the wrong side of 30. Which the Sxiers have featured in their frontcourt for far too long.

What are the odds that Bynum is tanking the season simply cause he doesn't want to be a Sixer?

Pretty low due to the fact that not playing a single game and the perception that he wasn't playing on purpose would cause teams to think thrice about making an offer to him

welp who else is ready to judge Harkless and Vuce on just one game?

thad

clank clank clank clank Sixers vs Magic everybody

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:20
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I really love this team, but watching them has become a bore along with a chore. No excitement on gamedays anymore. No yearning or burning feeling to get through the work day to come home to watch them. Just saying....

sissy jumper

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:22
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Of course, knowing all day you get to see Spencer Hawes and Evan Turner that night certainly don't help that much. Realizing you get to see those two makes gamedays more of a drag. Just saying....

doron lamb, best player ever is in!!!!!!

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:24
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And then you come up on a shitty opponent like the Magic and start to think to yourself, we're almost, if not just as shitty as them. Ugh

wright 3

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:37
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I'm startled at the amount of fans that are actually there tonight. Can't believe it's that many.

How many tickets do you think are there cause they're friends of Jameer Nelson (even if he ain't playing?)

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eddies' heady's reply to GoSixers on Feb 26 at 19:43
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Probably 10. Seriously, the upper deck is about half full.

"the shitty beatles, are they any good?"
"man, they suck"
"so it's not just a clever name..."

Shitty Beatles - isn't that kind of a redundant name?

yep a wilkins post-up ends in a turnover and cause he cant space the floor another turnover

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eddies' heady's reply to sixerfan1220 on Feb 26 at 19:44
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that sounds like Turner

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:46
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Turner and Hawes come back in and the Magic are on a 12-2 run. Not all of that 12 came with those two in there, can't remember how many did though.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:49
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Heh, Turner gets swatted by Vuc.

thad jumper

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:57
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Nicholson abusing Thad the last two times down.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 19:59
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Wilkins has just as much game as Evan sans the flashy handle.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:02
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Brian's head hasn't exploded yet, but the fuse is sure lit. Heh.

Magic up 5 at the half. Such an uneventful game.

well at least this will be over by 9...won't it?

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:21
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Heh, Magic now up 12, starting the quarter on a 7-0 run. The Sixers sure look like they have a spine and are inspired.

maybe moultrie will play

sissy jumper

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:24
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It'd really be helpful if they lose this game, just in case they win one down the stretch they're not supposed to.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:25
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Ha, Doug is subbing 4 guys at a time and I don't blame him.

He sat Jrue, Evan, Nick and Hawes. Left Thad in.

lol wilkins

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:33
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Keep leading em Wilkins....show ET how its done

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:35
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Well, what do you know, Hawes and Turner are on the bench and the Sixers are showing a pulse and coming back.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:36
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Wilkins to the line. Atta boy.

evan back in

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:37
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Uh-oh, ET's back in ....

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:39
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OK Wilkins, pipe it down, you're shooting like Turner.

Turner with a 9 foot pass for a 6 foot Ivey, Turnerover.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:40
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Turner blows two freebies. Heh

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:42
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Evan Turner made TWO free throws. The crowd sarcastically cheered after the first one.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:43
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Well, the Sixers only gave 2 back that quarter after Doug pulled the magic rabbit out of the hat by bringing in the Blue squad all at one time. Down 7.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:47
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Damien Wilkins is the only Sixer to be in double figures entering the 4th quarter.

Turner splits a pair.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:48
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Turner is a man possessed. To the line again. Makes both.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:50
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Small ball here, Thad is playing center. Wilkins at the 4.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:52
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This is good, Tobias 3. Magic up 17. Somebody please contact the man's wifey and tell her to get that M-80 out of his skull. The fuse is dwindling.

It's about to go off PEOPLE!!!!! Speed dial please......

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:54
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Maybe we'll make a run, the fearsome twosome are back on the court together. Go get em Spence and Ev.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:55
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LOL now this is the low of all lows

Evan Turner set an illegal screen ..... wait for it ....

Out of bounds! LOL

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:56
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And rightfully sat his ass right over there on the bench after doing such a silly thing.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:57
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Wilkins J.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 20:58
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Charles Jenkins! Charles Jenkins! clap clap clap clap clap

brian, no need to watch this go spend the time with your family

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 21:01
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I disagree, he needs to watch it so he can see that he shouldn't feel so dirty rooting for losses when they put forth this kind of effort.

Here comes Arnett, is Charles behind him?

we have a moultrie sighting, for 5 minutes but still!

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 21:06
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And with Vuc's 4th bucket all 5 Magic starters are in double figures.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 21:07
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WTF was that Pargo?

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 21:08
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I really feel sorry for Doug and the staff. Not but two or three of these guys actually give a fuck. Bunch of rich bitches.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 21:10
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Charles Jenkins baby!!! The man, the myth, the legend. There he is right before our eyes.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 21:14
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Our host's chime-in tonight should be interesting. heh

Magic by 14, at least they didn't get 100.

Magic players showing the Sixers what solidarity means by congratulating and cheering each other at the buzzer. They ain't worth a shit, but they appear to still care.

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TwoSense on Feb 26 at 21:41
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Wonder what the presser was like after this one? DC looked flustered throughout.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 22:01
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I'm curious if their next win won't be until March 10th (@ Magic) or will they luck up and win March 3rd (@ Wizards on a b2b)?

I wonder if Doug is officially done with this team, I feel bad for him, hes a decent coach and cares so much about the sixers, you can tell its killing him inside. Oh well maybe Bynum will actually come back and things will look better, after all this team was built around him, would be nice to see what they would look like with him.

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Lurker reply to Garrett on Feb 27 at 15:30
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This team was not built around Bynum. That is a myth that continues to exist. The trade and signing of Wright and Young, respectively, happened a month before the Bynum trade. Unless you believe the Sixers front office is omniscient or the Bynum trade had been in the works for awhile, you can't say the team was built around Bynum. You can say the Sixers traded playmaking for shooting (LouWill for Young).

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 22:56
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I wholeheartedly agree with every single syllable that came out of Coach's mouth in that press conference. Well fucking done. He ain't no babysitter, grow a sack players, and fast. Have some pride and simple love for the game, spoiled brats they are.

I couldn't disagree more about this.

You are right about the players first and foremost being the problem. No argument here on that. But I can't believe that you think he was right to publicly kill his players during that presser. First off, while he's no babysitter, Doug got a ton of credit the last two years for getting his team to play hard. He didn't seem to mind that credit. Now he has a team with a few lackadaisical (Even though talent is first and foremost the problem) guys and he plays the "Hey man, I'm only a coach" card. Seems pretty hypocritical. There's no big professionalism problem on this team, anyway. Maybe he didn't ask for a bunch of the credit during the first two years, but man, he completely gave up on them last night. I'm not impressed by that in the least bit. When things go bad for Doug Collins, he gives up. That's what his remarks felt like to me.

And I don't think he's done a bad job with the talent he's been given. But here's the problem with that: He gave himself this talent. Nobody told him he had to sign Hawes and Kwame. Nobody told him that he had to sign Nick Young. Nobody told him that he had to dislike Iguodala so much. I think any reasonable person understands how shorthanded the team is without Bynum, and that it's not really his fault that they're so bad. But he's shocked that Voose killed Hawes on the glass? Really, has he watched Hawes the last two years? Apparently not, they "needed to resign him." Anything Hawes or Kwame related is completely on him.

I do think this is different from his other burn-out jobs in that his team this year significantly downgraded in talent. But guess what, when you throw your players under the bus and completely deflect any blame, you don't get the benefit of the doubt your fourth time. I'm not sure I'd want to play for him after something like that. They are bad players, Doug. That's the main problem.

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MCT reply to Rich on Feb 27 at 0:56
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+1000

keep Jrue, keep Thad, get rid of the rest of these bums...including Doug

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mymanjrue reply to Rich on Feb 27 at 0:59
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RIGHT ON, Rich

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Feb 27 at 9:09
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Not much you said here holds any weight, because he didn't "publicly kill" his players, he merely pined for them to be the professionals they're paid to be. And you turn around and say "there's no professionalism problem here anyway"? OK.

If you have no more internal mettle than to say "I'm not sure I'd want to play for him after something like that", then your ass would need to be shipped out of here just like the rest of them that feel the same way. Again, when the going gets tough, the actual "tough" get going, grow a sack will ya?

If you think Doug's remarks signal he gave up, then yes, you clearly misunderstand anything the man was saying and doing.

Being bad players has absolutely nothing to do with careless, uninterested, don't give a fuck effort.

See Xsago below.

I don't really get what they're supposed to be playing for. We all understand that they're not good enough to make the playoffs, so basically you want them to play really hard and "grow a sack" for the pride of not finishing with a high draft pick, which would be bad for the team, and not even good for us as fans... Besides which, if it takes nights like last night for Doug to figure out that Hawes was a mistake, I'm all for that.

So you want the players to actively try to lose? That's a slippery slope for teams, even more so for players.

Don't need the players to have to try to lose - let them try their best - it's pretty easy to 'lose' on purpose with this roster

Limit Jrue and Thad to about 20 minutes per game - the sixers would just lose a lot purely based on the rest of the 'talent' on the roster - don't you think?

Yeah, I'm not talking about the coach. Tray was saying why should we want the players to play hard.

Ah I see where you went wrong there :)

So - are the Magic a better team when Jameer doesn't play? Or were the sixers just Charlotte bad last night?

But that's the thing, they were not trying their best last night. Not even close. And that's the type of losing mentality that can set a franchise back a decade. Just look at teams like the Wizards and the Kings. It's not just about talent with them. They just don't care enough to win.

The heat are arguable the best team in the league
The kings are arguable one of the worst
the Heat were at home

The heat went into double over time against said kings.

82 games is a long season and every team will lay a clunker or two - hell wasn't it against the bulls that the spurs sent their top 3 home and still almost won the game. That thursday night game that raised such a ruckus?

Maybe they played badly last night - maybe they were off - maybe they took the magic lightly cause they were missing jameer nelson.

I can't see into the psyche of every player on the roster, and neither can you

You have no idea the type of internal mettle I have and the stuff basketball coaches have said to me. But you know what, they haven't said that stuff publicly. And yes, he publicly killed his players. He basically said "I'm doing a great job coaching, but my players suck." Right or wrong, you can't say that publicly. You can't say "I never got booed." That says "I am better than these guys, and I want you media people to know that's the case." Deflecting blame is never a good look.

I know you are still hung up on Evan Turner, but there isn't a professionalism problem on this team outside of Bynum, who he wasn't really talking about. "Sacking up" and "calling them a bunch of spoiled babies" isn't the automatic answer like you always think it is. They gave below average effort last night. I think they've done that two times this year, maybe. That happens in the NBA. It's not something that's abnormal. Do you think the Knicks have a professionalism problem after that egg they laid in Philly about a month ago? How about when Boston lost to the Kings by 20 points?

The only guy I can think of who gives below average effort is Nick Young, and he has played harder this year than he has his whole career. Maybe Lavoy too, but he's played harder as of late. You can't equate all bad teams to "not caring," which at least you have done with all of the recent Sixers teams, Jrue, Thad, Evan, Dorell, Royal, J-Rich, and Hawes, they want to win as much as the next team. "Sacking up" is something that sounds good, but it's such an oversimplification. It's a much worse team on the floor that it was last year. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Feb 27 at 23:51
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OK chief, you know best, just like you did with Evan Turner and Maalik Wayns. He didn't deflect blame, hard truths hurt, just like they've eventually ended up doing with your boy Evan.

You're on the pulse though bro. You remind me of the new hip-hopper Future and on his collaboration with Kelly Rowland, "You've got all the questions....and I've got all the answers".

Just like Xsago waxed so eloquently about way down below this. You've got your view and I've got mine (opinions), obviously. I'm from the old school and you're from the new. You can tear it down, dissect it, poke holes in it, whatever. It is what it is and I stand by my beliefs in it.

Fair enough, much older than me Chief. I was completely wrong about Turner, but can't believe you're on my case about Wayns. At least I was right in that he made the team when first suggesting him out of Summer League. Aren't you the one who is a big Ish Smith fan?

And BTW, a "you have your opinion and I have mine" post is quite a different tone from starting out a post by saying "what you say doesn't have any weight." Just some food for thought.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Feb 28 at 8:50
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Heh, you interpret and change around my words just like you did Doug's. There's quite a bit of difference between "Not much you said here holds any weight", and "what you say doesn't have any weight", which I originally said. See that 'not much' in there?

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 23:06
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Turner's postgame comments were quite interesting also. After being asked was the issue "effort" out there tonight, he nicely sidestepped the question and continually threw out "they made shots, man, they made shots" and followed that up with "if the coach said that's what it was, then that's what it was". Guilty much Ev?

And another telling comment he made almost seemed of the woe is me variety. After saying he wasn't gonna drop his head over this game he goes, "I'm sure the leaders of this team and the all-star and everybody aren't gonna drop their heads". So he realizes or readily admits he's not one of the leaders? Tells us where his confidence level is.

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eddies' heady's on Feb 26 at 23:22
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Whereas Thad's comments, he comes right out and admits they didn't have any energy and the Magic had more fight, "It was all based on energy and they played with more fight than we did". "We don't play with any energy or emotion (when opponents go on runs) so we've got to put guys on the floor that's going to go out there and fight each and every night" and "some guys are just trying to find their way and we've got to figure this out together as a team".

Pretty interesting the stark contrast between the two mindsets. Two different people and players - yes. One heartbeat - hardly. Common goal and outlook - don't we all wish.

Cancers or prima-donnas, whatever they are, they know who they are and they need to go. Should have went last week.

Whether you like the coach or not, it's way beyond useless to keep changing coaches. The players have been, and still are the problem. The coach is just the snazzy new dress, the ugly duckling(s) wearing it hasn't changed.

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stonedeightytoo on Feb 26 at 23:51
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the magic ?

Heh. Wilkins is potg. Watched that Collins presser. Wonder who the three guys who didn't break a sweat were.

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Johnrosz reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 1:00
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None of them do anything in warmup. Honestly, ET is usually the first one out there pregame. Jrue dances, Hawes goes like 20 for 20 on sissy jumpers. I think Doug is out of touch sometimes, he's not wrong, but the pregame isn't the most productive time for any nba team nowadays.

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mymanjrue on Feb 27 at 0:53
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"I'm not a blamer. I'm not an excuse kind of guy"

Doug COllins at the conslusion of ten full minutes of blame-laying and excuse-making

I gotta admit i liked what Collins did there. He should've gone harder on himself as well, but that effort deserved being called out. And at the end of the day this is a man's league. The players have to man up and have a desire to win. If you don't want to win badly enough you shouldn't be an NBA player.

Collins has made some wrong personnel decisions and he should be blamed for that, but the lack of effort and lack of desire to win is unacceptable. And i think the players needed to be called out publicly so they can grow.

I think, after this, we can definitely expect huge changes in the summer. Doug called out three of his starters specifically (N.Young, Hawes and Turner i presume), and i think they will all be gone next season. The same thing stands for a lot of the bench players as well. And Collins will most likely be gone as well, unless Bynum is healthy and they can find a solid supporting cast early in the summer. I don't know what the ownership thinks of this whole situation but so far they've been backing Collins.

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mymanjrue reply to Xsago on Feb 27 at 8:48
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oh an offseason overhaul?just like happened after last season after a completely different roster quit on the exact same coach, before being brought back to life by derrick rose's acl. i went to a ton of games last year. the atmosphere on the bench the last couple months of the season was toxic and it was all coming from the head coach. he has got to go. some of the players, too-but a different roster with the same coach next year?i guarantee you history will repeat itself yet again

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Rich reply to Xsago on Feb 28 at 2:26
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"Doug called out three of his starters specifically (N.Young, Hawes and Turner i presume), and i think they will all be gone next season."

That sounds good, but good luck to them trying to unload Hawes and Turner.

They only have one more year remaining on their contracts. I don't think it's going to be that difficult to be honest. I think there is a market for both of them. Hawes can be a valuable piece for a contender needing an off the bench floor spacer at the PF/C spot. There are plenty of teams that might roll the dice for a year IMO. There might even be coaches out there that think they can make him tougher, which is his main weakness and the one that makes him a terrible player actually. As for Turner, the situation is more complicated because i think other teams do realize Turner needs extremely specific conditions to be a positive. I'm sure someone will roll the dice though (again only one year remaining, very little risk in it), he was a no.2 pick for a reason and it's not like he is a complete bust in the Thabeet/Milicic mode.

P.S. I just had a look at the number 2 picks in the draft over the past 10 years. Ouch. There are only 3 players that are actually better than Turner - Durant, Aldridge and Okafor. There are so many busts out there (Thabeet, Milicic, Beasley, M.Williams). The book is still out on MKG, but he hasn't looked all that great so far. Ditto for D.Williams.

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Rich reply to Xsago on Feb 28 at 12:04
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I just wonder if you can only get back another bad player for them. The time to move them was this year for an expiring, and they were both reportedly on the block at the deadline, so I dunno what you'd have to take back. Nothing of value, I'd think.

It's so sad to watch. More sad because it's nothing new. I don't know if I disagree with everything Collins said, I just think he's kind of disturbing in his delivery when he's at the end of his rope like that. I don't get all the smiling and nodding. The story is familiar. Team plays over its head for a stretch, then comes crashing down to earth and plays beneath its floor for a stretch. That was just a shameful performance by the entire organization yesterday, from Bynum leaving a bunch reporters waiting for him before the game right through the press conference after the game and everything in between. Courtside seats are going for $80 on StubHub and that still seems too expensive to me. That pretty much sums up the state of affairs.

Hey, at least Doug's presser after the game got some coverage on ESPN (after the HEAT 2OT and Warriors fight, in that order, the sixers were third)

BTW - Anyone else think that Stern should drop the Hammer on Hibbert? 1 game seems a bit light because that's the standard, gotta send a message regarding the fighting AND ending up in the crowd.

Haven't seen the video. Avoided all sports after the game last night.

Radio HIt with Tim Legler

Grantland shows some love on Monday

Post Game Presser via Sixers.com

You know - in case you want some laughs

He's obsessing over Harkless' box scores? Ugh.

Tried to post a few links but I've been sequestered

I won't stand idly by and let the sequestration happen.

I figured it was standard spam/troll defense because of the three links - oh dear - I totally didn't even notice the sequester thing - I suppose if I watched the news I'd understand it more - but every time John Boehner speaks my ears bleed.

So let's talk about who the sixers coach is gonna be next season?

I'll be surprised if it isn't Collins. Don't think ownership is going to fire him. Maybe he steps down and anoints Curry.

If you take over a mediocre (at best for a long period of time) organization - and you keep the same people on board who brought the team to mediocrity - what do you think that says about the confidence of the new owners in their ability to build a winner? Just a thought I had. You buy a business, a sports team, whatever, if you have confidence in your ability to make it successful wouldn't you want to bring in your people that you trust as opposed to keeping the 'old guard' who hadn't been as successful?

I'm not saying go all Jerry Jones on it, but maybe the guys who have been here a while and accomplished jack shouldn't exactly get to stay?

Just weird as I think about it this morning.

Do you think Collns being coach would have any influence on Bynum - dollars being equal? He's not exactly the toughest kid in the world (PS - the legler hit has a bit about how he doesn't think Philly is where Bynum wants to be, explicitly says he doesn't feel AB is milking the injury but thinks Andrew is too sensitive for Philly)

I'm confused, after last season Doug was the messiah of all coaches, he was to be here for the next decade, and he was the reason the team excelled, it was all Doug, Doug was to be President for life.

How quickly people turn

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 11:13
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i hated him before it was cool.

Well I save hatred for people who are truly deserving of it, I was just making an self serving observation cause I felt like having fun this morning.

Whether or not he is the coach next year (I'm hoping Brian is wrong) I'm hoping he won't be. I'm hoping the new ownership sees this combined disaster after last seasons 'success' as the impetus to just clean house and start over (even letting DiLeo go if they feel it's necessary)

In my opinion, the actions of the new ownership haven't shown me a 'good' group wanting to win an NBA title and excited about owning a professional sports team but more what I was afraid of when they bought the team. Businessmen who see the team as an investment purely dollars and sense who got the team at a great discount because of the crappy tv and stadium situation

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 18:10
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Dude-you are completely and totally right about the ownership.

What did they pay again?I forget the exact number, but I know it was absurdly low for an NBA franchise with a storied history in the fifth largest media market in the country

In retrospect, last offseason's moves begin to look less like moves designed to make the Sixers conteders, and more like moves designed to increase the value of the franchise so they could flip it for a handsome profit. Think about it...lose Iggy, he's never been marketable in Philly. Lose Brand, clear cap space. Get Bynum, and shout his name from the rooftops. Our savior!From Wilt to Moses to Charles to Andrew. Sell season tickets. Remember when they refused to admit that he was going to miss the opener?lord

These guys are driven by the bottom line-and we all should have expected nothing less, given their backgrounds. ESPECIALLY once Levien, the only guy with basketball experience, quietly fled last summer. Just as all should have looked at Collins' background and anticipated that he would be in Philly what he's been everywhere else.

The lesson is-don't believe the hype, do your homework and understand who a potential coach, front office person, or player has been throughout his career, wart and all, and you will be right more often than not

I'm sure it was under 300 million - for some reason 280 million sticks to me - compare that to what the freaking KINGS went for - and they were motivated sellers.

if I recall - comcast also got a sweet heart tv deal out of it for like the next 7 years or something - a below market deal (don't get me started on the comcast monopoly crap that the FCC let's happen)

Speaking of which - anyone know when the phillies renegotiation starts?

I still think he should stay. I'd send everyone not named Jrue, Thad and maybe Moultrie elsewhere though.

I'm just wanting to hear your rationale for wanting him to stay. We all know my rationale for thinking he should go, his resume indicates he has a short shelf life, like a scott skiles.

Moultrie, and even Thad are expendable as far as I'm concerned, though Multrie is cheap. However, remember, you can't just send them elsewhere without taking much back, which as I see it is the main problem. Who would want what the sixers have to offer and what sort of flotsam would they get back. The new cash rules make it much harder to motivate teams to take your garbage

My point wasn't about specifics in terms of if and how you can trade them it was more about who is worth keeping and can have a long term future in the team.

My point about why Collins should remain as the coach is threefold:
- They have been winning more than they should talent wise for the third straight season under him.
- He was at least on board (and probably even behind) a drastic move to dismantle a team that was literally minutes away from the conference finals to get Bynum, who on paper was the franchise player the team hasn't had in almost a decade. Noone else wanted to take such a risk. Collins did it and he needs to get credit for it, because the lack of that kind of mentality is what made the Sixers mediocre.
- A lot of people say he is a bad coach for player development and they couldn't be more wrong IMO. Look what he's done with Jrue, Thad even Lavoy Allen. Vucevic is playing great as well and some of that improvement is definitely on Collins. They are all playing better than any of us thought they will ever be able to. The only players that have failed to fulfill their potential (so far at least) under Collins are Turner and Speights. And he's coached a lot of young players that ended up having great careers, e.g. Jordan, Pippen, Hill... He's got a very solid track record in player development whether people want to admit it or not. Development is not all about giving minutes to the youngsters like many think.


All this changes though if the Sixers decide to go into a full time tanking mode that might last for a few years. Collins will squeeze too many wins out of that kind of team and that's not what the team would need.

P.S. I think Collins is in for the long run. The real question is at what capacity: as a coach or with a front office position.

I don't have a problem with him staying as a coach - only as a coach. I don't want him making personnel decisions, though. The Bynum deal was a no-brainer. Every other move this team has made since he was hired has been somewhere between blah and just terrible. He wasn't the guy making some of those decisions, but the trend seems to be toward blowing moves as he's gathered a larger voice in the room.

The problem with your point is that whomever you get rid of brings someone back who then you have to evaluate with a long term future with the team - and with this motley bunch you won't get much back - the benefit of most of the garbage on the sixers roster is their relatively short contracts - so unless you are getting some sort of a steal (and when does that ever happen to the sixers) I see no point in making desperate moves - the devil you know as they say.

That team that was 'minutes' away from the conference finals was one torn ACL away from not making it out of the first round - if last years playoff performance was seen as anything more than a fluke by the front office and Collins - I'm personally even more concerned thatn I was when I woke up this morning, and the only key piece given up in the bynum deal (in my opinion, contrary to everyone's oh my god look what we gave up in voose) was Iguodala, and getting Bynum for Iguodala is not a huge risk - unless of course you don't do your due medical dilligence and realize he's not going to play all season.

How do you know 'no one else wanted to do it'? Half the city has wanted Iguodala gone for - you know - his whole career.

Your examination of Collins only iin Philadephia is my biggest issue - it ignores his entire coaching resume - this is his third job you can't just ignore what went on in the other two especially when year 3 is playing out almost exactly as the same as it did in the other two places.

In baseball managers get WAY too much credit for wins and losses, the way I see it, you are giving collins way too much credit for almost everything

Too much credit when I feel he doesn't deserve it - I guess is what I'm trying to say.

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 12:47
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I give Collins credit for deciding to make Iguodala a defensive specialist, not trying make Young into a wing or a jumpshooter, and identifying Lou as a scorer off the bench instead of having him as a starting PG.

Iguodala was one of the best man defenders in the league before Collins got here - not really giving him credit for that...that's a bad point.

I'll give you Lou and Thad, though Thad might just be natural evolution of the player after he figures out where he fits in the league. Lou for sure though - though Doug was also the guy constantly calling iso's for lou - or letting lou dribble the air out of the ball - or letting him continue to gun when his shot wasn't there.

However, if he gets credit for things should he not also get blame for Spencer Hawes showing now evolution in his game, Evan Turner getting no better from his rookie year? For young guys who might have talent not getting floor time?

I mean - it can't be a one sided slate - you have to look at the whole board (great not I'm quoting Searching for Bobby Fischer) to truly evaluate a guy. If you're crediting him for any player development you have to fault him for lack of development of other players.

As a whole - I wans't in favor of the Collins hire when it happened - nothing has changed that to me

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 13:17
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Like Brian said, I don't think Collins is a bad coach. He's not on the same level as a Gregg Popavich or a Doc Rivers, but I think he's on the same level as a Vinny Del Negro or a Stan Van Gundy.

He's not the type of coach that will out-scheme another team but he's the type of coach that identifies the strong suits of his players and puts them in the best position to win. Lou Williams is a talented player but he was never going to be the type of player that could play within a system.

I like DC, but I don't think he should have much say in personnel matters. If Collins wants that, I wouldn't mind seeing the two part ways.

I don't think Collins is a good coach either

But - for their sakes - I don't think Vinny Del Negro is in the same class as Van Gundy or Collins - if ranking them in terms of what I think of as a 'good' coach it would go

1. Van Gundy
2. Collins

a VERY distant
3. Del Negro

I think his past situations with Chicago, Detroit and Washington are vastly different than this one. First and foremost, people change, and Collins is far from the nitpicking maniac he was in his early coaching days. He has taken a back sit to the rest of the coaching staff often and on purpose. Second he has had an extremely downgraded roster this year, which is the opposite of what he had in his previous stints. And third, really at least half of the issue this year is with the players that are in their first year under Collins, not in their third.

You can equivocate and parse it anyway you want - 3 jobs - no more than 3 years - this job - in his 3rd year - falling apart...yo ucant' just give him credit for good things

I am not just giving him credit for the good things. There are bad things about him. Like having too much control over basketball operations and player personnel. Like being too stubborn at times. But when you put it all together the good outweighs the bad by a big enough margin for him to be worth keeping.

But than again, you can just take everything out of context, say it's his third year (same as ever), not bother about anything else and throw him under the bus. Your argument is the one that doesn't care about the positives he brings.

It's his third year
The only positive this year has been Jrue's play and not going to give Collins credit for a kid in his 5th year finally realizing how to play in the NBA


Starting with the last celtics game I'm wondering what positives there are to hang Collins hat on

Trade? Medical due dilligence either not done or ignored
Free Agency? Giving Hawes AND kwame more than one year - stupid - no one else was going to
Player Development? Well aside from Jrue who has shown it?
Letting young guys play to see what the sixers have - nope

Seriously - what's positive since the end of the celtics season that you want to give Collins credit for

You just keep making excuses about how this situation is different - EVERY situation is different, chicago, detroit, washington - they all have differences, and yet - he's 3 for 3 in losing his job after 2 full seasons, and for his teams taking a step back in the third season before he was let go - so - where's the positives?

Well it appears to me that you purposefully ignore all of his positives like:

- Jrue's improvement. As mucha as it pains you to admit it, Collins has to receive some credit for it.
- Thad's improvement. I know you undervalue him a great deal, but Thad has improved his post defense and rebounding while keeping his offensive efficiency despite having a much larger role in the offense. That's a huge improvement.
- They won more games than they should have. How is this ignored? I mean how good a coach is should be first and foremost judged on how much his team wins compared to the talent level of the team.
- He was on board to dismantle the team in the offseason. That's a huge risk for the greater good long term. That's something 99% of the other coaches wouldn't do. And the medical diligence in the trade wasn't his job. That's what the medical staff is for. And Bynum's knees weren't nearly as bad than. His problems began after the trade.

And all of this is just this year. You can't forget what he's done in the past few years.

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buke reply to Xsago on Feb 27 at 13:45
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My guess is that Jordan, Pippen, and Hill would have developed if Barbara Streisand had been their coach.

Did this team overachieve to a point this year when measured by wins and losses? Probably. But they seem to be steadily deteriorating as the season progresses (even the Golden Boy Jrue hasn't looked too hot in recent weeks). Possibly some of that is because too few players have pulled too many minutes trying to do too many things and have experienced too much failure. Working your ass off and consistently failing may have a detrimental psychological effects after awhile so I'm not surprised that the players seem to be slacking a bit.

If Collins wants to see improvement in attitude maybe he should start playing the players more that he hasn't played a lot this year. They haven't been beaten down as much. Wilkins actually looked like he wanted to play last night. What is there to lose at this point?

Not throwing players under the bus is also helpful for team morale

Than why does any coach get credit for developing players? You can make the same case for literally any coach. The facts are the facts and Collins has to get credit for their development or no coach ever can get credit for any player's development.

Btw, i think you may be right about the players minutes. Jrue, Thad and Turner have played way too many minutes so far. Look at the Bulls. They are falling apart of late too and the reason is probably the same, Thibodaux plays his players way too much. But i'd venture to guess that the minute distribution is more related to the talent level of the team than anything else.

Not all players are created equal

You can't give a credit all the credit or no credit - it's a case by case basis

Sam Dalembert for instance - he never got better - and that was purely on him - and everyone knows it - no coach was to blame for his lack of dedication to basketball

Whereas Michael Jordan (or lebron James or Kobe Bryant) are three of the most driven people ever to play in the NBA - did you see the story about lebron working with Lebron this off season so he could work on a weakness in his game or advantage he wasn't using enough (his size)? Did Sam Dalembert ever go to work with Hakeem to learn post ups? or how to catch? Or how to dribble.

Shaw and Dwight Howard - crappy ass free throws - no one to blame but themselves - Dwight being DPOY in Orlando - Van Gundy gets the credit for PUTTING HIM IN A SYSTEM that allows him to dominate
If a players fundamentals are weak and they never get better - I always put that on the player - coaches don't teach fundamentals in the NBA - they don't have time.

I think coaches should get credit for USING players properly - and collins doesn't use his players properly.

It's not all or nothing, it's not binary - no one in the NBA gets credit for making Kyle Korver a dead eye 3 point shooter - but they can get credit for using him properly.

In a coach's defense - they have 12-15 guys a season - 82 games to win - and very little practice time - most player development is on the player in the off season

Not playing young guys just because however - that's on the coach

I'm not saying it's black and white. But you can't pick the players a coach should get credit for and he shouldn't get credit for as it suits you.

And Collins does use a lot of his players properly. The problem is some of those players are only capable of playing inefficient basketball. You can't make them that better.

So - what you're saying is the coach can only do the best with what he has - period - so should he get any credit for player development at all?

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 11:55
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Here's a rationale: he's always (even this year) coached the team to overachieving defensive performances.

And he's never lasted a full 3 seasons anywhere until now - and the same things are happening now

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 12:26
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I would argue they are under a different set of circumstances, because at least in Chicago, his talent didn't take a major hit in Year 3. He's not doing a horrible job record-wise with this team at all. But yeah, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt with a press conference like last night after you've done this before three times.

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Rich reply to Tray on Feb 27 at 12:14
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This is true, especially this year. But man, the way he coaches offense...

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Tray reply to Rich on Feb 27 at 12:30
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I agree, but I think we've overachieved a lot more on defense than we've underachieved on offense. We've always had well-below-average offensive talent under him.

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Rich reply to Tray on Feb 27 at 12:41
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Agreed, except I think this year we have well below average offensive talent. The years before, it was about average. Thad and Lou off the bench was something no other team really had. I'm not even talking about the results (even though being 29th in the league is bad however you slice it), just the ceiling such a radical system has. I don't know how you can work for such horrible shots and be an above average offense with pretty much any personnel outside of LBJ and Durant.

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Tray reply to Rich on Feb 27 at 13:51
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You'd know more about the system than me, but I assume you're talking about our obsession with mid-range jumpers? Anyway, I guess we agree that Collins is a net plus.

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buke reply to Tray on Feb 27 at 14:08
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Oh, come on! Overachieve, underachieve, the relative performance on offense vs. defense, who cares? Are you now going to point to some advanced team statistic to tell us that this team really isn't as lousy as our own eyes tell us it is?

Have you ever heard of the old expression "You know it when you see it?" To avoid looking like an educated fool (and I say this as a man with a Ph.D.) always try to keep it somewhere in your mind.

Have you ever heard of the old expression "You know it when you see it?" To avoid looking like an educated fool (and I say this as a man with a Ph.D.) always try to keep it somewhere in your mind.

I've heard it - but I don't think it applies to your argument. I think 'you know it when you see it' is a cop out people use in arguments where numbers are available but they don't fit their point. It's not pornography - it's not the FCC - there are numbers to support the argument that the sixers are terrible

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Tray reply to buke on Feb 27 at 15:22
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So, the metric of how good a coach is obviously isn't how good his team is, it's how good his team is compared to how good you'd expect it to be given its roster. This year we're an average defensive team when we should be a really bad one, last year we were a great defensive team when we should have just been a good one.

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The Sampler on Feb 27 at 13:01
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More bad news in this clip starting at about the 4:20 mark:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8995049

I think Skip Bayless and I have the same amount of high placed sources in the sixers.

Both of you have more than Mitchell.

I have no reaction. It's probably true, but I'll wait to hear it from Woj or someone else who matters.

I'm really not sure how either of those two fools is still employed by ESPN - i mean surely they said worse things than that rob fella said about RObert Griffin?

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 13:21
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I have a feeling it might true as well, I'm just holding out hope that it's not. This news can be seen as a bit of relief. If it's true, the Sixers can part ways with him and not taking the risk of re-signing him and end up seeing him as the next Elton Brand.

No video at work, what is it?

Skip Bayless saying he has 'highly placed sources' that MRI's on Bynums knees show deterioration - i didn't listen much more cause skip bayless is, well, skip bayless - the less talented less useful bayless brother

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Mike reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 13:24
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Thanks

Pas de quoi

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 13:38
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I wouldn't be surprised if this was true, but I can make some stuff up and make them sound reasonable.

According to a team source:

1. Evan Turner thinks that Collins isn't using him properly

2. Collins thinks that Hawes is a center piece for this team's future and thinks that his leadership and heart is beneficial to this team.

3. Jrue Holiday wants out and play for a better team that will make him a more marketable player

4. Tony DiLeo and Doug Collins are in a dispute over control about the team's personnel decisions

5. The Sixers attempted to trade Bynum to Detroit for a deal centered around Andre Drummond, but Detroit declined.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were true either, but I would be surprised that Bayless had a reliable source as opposed to 'dot connecting' - for instance 'why would andrew bynum stand up the press unless he got really terrible news, I know - the most recent MRI probably found severe knee problems but it'll sound better if I say 'highly placed source' even though I never leave connecticut, primarily covered football before coming to ESPN, in texas, and everyone in the NBA knows I'm a blowhard after marc cuban made me his bitch last year (which i liked but don't tell anyone)'

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buke reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 13:55
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Well, it's not so hard to be correct in this prediction case. Bynum returning to form vs. not returning to form is probably close to a 50%/50% proposition. Those odds are better than a multiple choice test.

If Bynum's problems turn out to be career ending or at least significantly career diminishing and the strong possibility of this was discoverable at the time of the trade, maybe someone in the Sixers' front office should lose his job for this. If Collins had anything to do with lack of due diligence, well that's just icing on the cake.

Ugh - when did hoopsworld sell out to USA Today?

God this is awful - but here's an article that you can read if you sit through the stupid commercial

http://www.hoopsworld.com/is-andrew-bynum-washed-up-at-age-25/

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Stan reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 13:41
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1. Isn't this what you've been saying all year?
2. You should get adblock for your browser (sorry Brian)

Well yeah, but no one ever listens to me - people think I'm just making stuff up to cause trouble - I honestly believe what I say - i'm a blinker :)

As for ad blocker - not sure it would work on that video - it's one of those 'you have to watch this video to get a live link' thing?

I was more disappointed to see hoopsworld was now owned by usa today

National Game tomorrow on TNT against Chicago - I wonder how bad it's going to be

The Bulls are playing like crap also. They'll probably be motivated. 20-point loss, I'd guess. And 2.5 hours of the TNT guys talking about how much the Sixers suck and Reggie Miller saying you can't re-sign Bynum about 300 times.

And Charles with his STILL seething hatred for the city and how he wasn't beloved talking about how it's a terrible place to play etc...

I wouldn't be surprised if they won though - I mean - just because inconsistent is never consistent :)

Yeah, just read that. At the end he talks about the two looming decisions: Re-sign Bynum? Re-sign Turner the following summer?

There's no way in hell they give Turner an extension. They just can't.

Of course they can HE WAS THE SECOND PICK IN THE DRAFT

Actually - I didn't realize it was this bad on Voose last year

Vucevic played less than three minutes total in Philly’s 13 playoff games.

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 14:42
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That's what made the Hawes comment last night pretty hypocritical.

Remember how hopeless Hawes was against Boston? Still can't believe they re-signed him.

Oh come on - don't give boston all the credit - hawes is pretty much hopeless against the NBA

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Rich reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 14:52
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Yeah, it's such a joke. I still think they win that series if Doug starts Lavoy and just mirrors his time with KG. Instead, Rivers did the opposite. Not that Miami wouldn't have beaten the pants of them in the next round, but still.

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 15:20
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It surprised me as well. During crunch time last year, Collins would play a Lavoy/Thad and Brand front court. They only had Hawes in important situations when his jump shot was falling. Last off season they let him test free agency, and didn't offer him anything beyond the $3.4 million qualifying offer. I thought $13 million was a cruel joke the first, second, and third time I heard it.

Lowe has a lot to say about Hawes in his article - I'm not a huge Simmons fan at all but Lowe has impressed me recently.

Though - is it weird to anyone else how much coverage the sixers are suddenly getting when you could still talk about the mediocre lakers, the streaking heat, the fight last night...I don't know - why the sudden interest in the sixers ESPN wise?

Lowe has always spilled a lot of ink on the Sixers. No idea why.

..part of Lowe's argument here though is that they miss JRich for his defense...really?

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buke reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 15:45
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While I agree that Turner hasn't done nearly enough to deserve the 8 million plus salary that would be his qualifying offer, resigning him is a smaller risk than resigning Bynum. Turner should improve over the next couple of years and could be an effective 3rd or 4th wheel somewhere (if he learns to deal with that role) even if that isn't worth anything close to 8 million. Nevertheless, he probably should be traded if a reasonably fair deal presents itself. At least he deserves some credit for playing a lot of minutes this season and, by now, that must be a fairly joyless task.

Bynum, on the other hand, has already been a hugely expensive and heretofore completely fruitless disaster. Right now the money paid and the decisions made to acquire him are sunk costs, but he is an even bet to continue being an unproductive money pit to whomever chooses to sign him. Thinking of Bynum as a star in the present tense for whom resigning should be perfunctory seems wishful to me. All I'm sure of is that Bynum "WAS" a star. Right now his ceiling could be latter era Bill Walton and his floor could be post-injury Yao Ming.

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Stan reply to buke on Feb 27 at 15:49
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I'd rather spend that $8 million on 2.5 Carlos Delfinos

I think that's a bit extreme, but I think expecting improvement from Turner when there really hasn't been any yet is kind of questionable too.

If turner signed a short low value contract - fine - but even the MLE seems a bit much for him on his second contract to me

Is this just normal for an NBA team?

My point is that the Sixers started declining aftyer 2001 and really fell apart after 2004... and they have carried huge amounts of dead weight every year since. I wonder how much better this franchise would have been for the past 10 years if they would have simply stayed out of their own way by refusing to take on dead weight?


2012:
Bynum 16M
Brand 16M (on Mavs)
JRich 6M

2011:
Brand(shell) 17M
Noci 6.5M

2010:
Brand: 16M (shell)
Noci 7M
Kapo: 6.5M

2009:
Brand (shell): 15M
Kapo: 6M

2008:
Brand (hurt): 14M

2007:
Webber 19M
Mckie: 7M (on Lakers)
Giricek: 4M

2006:
Webber 17M
McKie: 6.7M (on Lakers)

2005:
Webber 19M
Mash 10M
ToddMac: 6.3M (retired)

2004:
GRob 12M (scrub)
ToddMac: 6.3M (retired)

2003:
GRobb 11M

2002:
KVH: 12M
Coleman 9M
Geiger 9M

2001:
Coleman 8.7M
Geiger 8M

I don't think it's normal

After 2001 though the sixers seemed to continue behaving like a team that was 'this close' taking on longer term contracts to get over the imaginary hump...the mistake was not recognizing what their talent was and wasn't

Hard to feel anything but contempt for Collins attitude given:

He traded for Bynum knowing the risks.
He knows very well that sending out a roster of young players plus vets who are career journeymen or side shows will lead to underachieving. He chose to turn Brand + Lou's 21M into Hawes/NYoung/Wright/Kwame at 20M.

I would be fine if Collins said something like: We knew trading for Bynum was a big risk, and so far it has hurt us. To otherwise control this risk we chose to bring in a bunch of guys on short contracts that might complement Bynum. The end resulty is a ill-fitting roster that is underachieving. But we were prepared to face that outcome in the short term knowing that the potential rewards were high and that we are still left in a position to make furtehr dramatic changes over the next 18 months. In the meantime, it is my job as coachj to maximise what we have and take responsibility for the contruction and the execution of the team we have put out on the floor.

Instead he threw his players under the bus. the same players he signed.

The other guys weren't signed to short contracts to compliment Bynum, though. Collins assembled this team to play with Iguodala on the floor, with Harkless and Voose coming off the bench, and without Richardson. The roster was complete before the Bynum deal happened.

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 16:25
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He still decided to go into that season with a Hawes/Kwame front court

Not only did he decide to do it, he was psyched about it.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 16:27
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Yep. I'd like to think the roster was made with the intention of getting the best athletic big avaiable- but it is hardto be optomistic right now.

I do think that limitting themselves to short deals pushed down the quality of the players available- which I can live with. But it does not excuse Collins throwing the team he built under the bus. It would be like the CEO of GM complaining that his company does poorly because it is hard to sell lousy cars.

In hindsight, it would have been so much less risky to try and acquire a pick to draft a guy like either Drummond or De'Andre Jordan when they were drafted. The risk-reward on those types of guys is much less than going after an established big with a known injury history.

the thing that kills me is that he had an injury history, then he played a complete season last year, and a complete season with very, very little rest. I don't think it's crazy to think maybe he got over the injuries after putting together a run like that last year. Just the worst institutional luck I've ever seen.

At the end of the day that's what it is. Bad luck.

Except didn't every one and their mother know Bynum was headed over the europe to get that knee treatment kobe got? Hell maybe the tightenss of the season helped 'masked' his knee issues cause there was no time to rest in between.

Jim Buss LOVED Andrew Bynum - if they lakers believed he was healthy - they weren't going to move him - that's the telling sign right there - that suddenly Buss is willing to move bynum to get dwight when the option had been open to them for a while

The German doctor thing didn't happen until later, and really that thing has been prophylactic for everyone else who's done it. Kobe was born again.

I'm also not sure the Bynum for Dwight deal was there before the Sixers got involved. ORL didn't want Bynum, they wanted young guys and picks.

Maybe the fact that ORL didn't want him should've been a red flag.

Either Orlando didn't want him or Los Angeles relented in finally giving up on Bynum to get Dwight - depends whose rumors you want to believe - but either way - there was a lot of smoke on Bynum - people keep talking about last season and how he played em all - but that was the only season where he had em all really - in a while

The deal in theory was good - but I still wouldn't be surprised to find out they knew and they traded him just to save a year of Iguodalas cash

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tk76 reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 16:49
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If they wanted to save cash then they would not be payiong 16M to Brand this year.

I think they wanted to blow things up ("we have peaked" and I agree with them deciding to do this.

They were going to pay brand 16 million dollars this year no matter what (i believe as trade bait he had zero value without taking back an equally bad contract) - they don't re-sign bynum - they're out from under the iguodala contract a year early

I think you get this, but you like being obtuse. They didn't have to amnesty Brand, and then replace that salary. They're spending $16M more this year (the exact same amount of Iguodala's salary next year) than they had to. If they were truly cheap, they wouldn't have amnestied Brand. Or they would've amnestied Brand and then just sat on the cap space for a year. The net of the trade + the signings + the amnesty is the exact same as doing nothing (letting brand expire/keeping Iguodala). I guess you can make the argument they saved some money on inflation by paying $16M this year instead of next, though investing $16M for a year should beat the cost of inflation.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 16:43
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Probably bad luck- or bad advice based on exam and MRI doe at the time of the trade.

CWebb was Western Conference player of the month right before the Sixers traded for him- but was much older.

yeah - i didn't like that deal either :)

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Lurker reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 17:31
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I don't think the Webber deal was all that terrible. There at least seemed to be thought behind it. Kenny Thomas was signed long term. I believe Williamson had a few more years on his deal. I can't even remember who the 3rd guy was. My argument for the deal in Billy King's honor (did I just say that) was "We can pay these 2 shitty guys for 70% of Webber's contract or we can pay 2 guys to give us 50% of what Webber could give us. Iverson is one year older. I've screwed myself into some bad long term money. Maybe I'll get lucky. At worst, I'm free of the Kenny Thomas deal."

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Lurker reply to Lurker on Feb 27 at 17:34
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I apologize if the numbers are off. The trade was too long ago for my brain to remember the numbers accurately. I stand by the logic of the trade tho.

Well money wise - you're right - it was a good deal for the sixers - long term cap wise - but on the court - yeah - i remember people getting excited (this was when I wasn't banned on realgm :) about getting webber and how they were sure he was the big man Iverson never had :)

The Webber deal was rare in that the Sixers got the best player and the shortest money in the deal. Another big who could only shoot jumpers by that time. Why did I wind up a Sixers fan, and why can't I just change now, or stop watching?

The only reason i liked that deal was money :)

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 27 at 18:26
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But in a separate trade Billy King decided to trade Glenn Robinson's expiring contract for Rodney Buford and Jamal Mashburn. Mashburn had another year on his contract year remaining. I remember reading the Inquirer the day after the trade and Billy King saying that Mashburn would never play for the Sixers. They didn't even issue him a number. So basically, Billy Kind decided to pay Jamal Mashburn $10 million for the opportunity to have Rodney Buford on this team.

Well - in Billy Kings defense he was rather slow in realizing that the value of expiring contracts had slipped to none - for a while - expiring contracts had a high value and could swing you a first round pick - and King probably thought he could do that with Mash come trade deadline never realizing that the 'expiring contract' deadline trade market had dried up a year or two earlier :)

UGh - WHY do I remember these things - all the various nonsense in my head from having ADHD and all those varied interests - i rock at song pop - ruby and rails has a hard time sticking but this sixer crap - burned in my mind

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 18:47
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When did the market for expirings dry up? Didn't Detroit just trade Prince and Daye for an expiring contract?

Ugh - really?

Well see - there was an old CBA and then there was a new CBA - and the time we are talking about is the old CBA when things were different - and there was a time when expirings dried up in value because no one needed them any more - all the teams maneuvering had maneuvered

Under the new CBA - expirings have LESS value I believe because if I recall correctly - they are still counted towards salary this year - so if you trade fo an expiring contract in 2013 before the February deadline - it doesn't help you with your 2013 salary - only free agency and 2014 salary issue (and 13/14 I believe is when the severe penalties go into affect/effect - I never get that right)

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Feb 27 at 20:00
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So why did expirings cease to have value under the old CBA - because "all the teams maneuvering had [already] maneuvered"?

Actually i think it's like the CEO complaining that the company does poorly because the employees are lazy and don't work hard. And the way that problem can get solved is by firing the employees.

CEO's hardly ever do hiring

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eddies' heady's reply to Xsago on Feb 27 at 23:54
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agreed

And that doesn't mean there was no plan to trade Iguodala for a low post threat. The fact that the other players were signed before Bynum is overblown IMO. You can't realistically judge a team's offseason until its complete. Some things need to happen sooner than the others.

Of course that doesn't mean Hawes, Kwame and Young were good signings regardless of Bynum.

Man - you're flexible - contortionist even.

Seriously though - do you think if the sixers had traded for bynum - and believed like they claim he was going to play - kwame brown would have gotten two years.

Your comment right now is just bordering on being intentionally naive. There was no RUSH to sign Kwame, there was NO market for Spencer, if they thought moving Iguodala was going to happen - they should have waited - none of their big 'signings' this off season were going to be snapped up - mostly cause no one wanted them

WHich should be telling enough

a) Yes, i think Kwame had a chance to get two years regardless of Bynum.
b) We don't know what the market for the signees was. We are just assuming there was no market, which may or may not have been true. What is true though is that most players sign deals in the first two weeks after the free agency deadline opens.
c) I am not a contortionist at all. I just think there are multiple options that could be true and since we don't actually know what was going on at the time i think it's wrong to take for granted whatever we think was the actual truth. I am pointing these stuff out mostly because i am tired of assumptions and there are a lot of assumptions being put out there on the Sixers blogs of late. And people suddenly start acting as if those are the actual truth and we have no idea what the actual truth was/is. What i want to read is actual basketball analysis, statistics, Xs and Os. And lately all i am reading from commenters is who should be fired/traded, who is to blame and how everything sucks. People just jump on narrow-minded ideas, without giving it a thorough thought. This is not about who is right or wrong. It's about jumping to conclusions without valid facts. And no facts taken out of context are not valid facts. We have very little facts about this team anyway, and the ton of speculation i am reading is really tiring. I just want to show people that what someone writes is not necessarily the truth. Everyone should have their own opinion on the state of affairs, when there are no hard facts.

P.S. I don't plan to argue about stuff like this.

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tk76 reply to Xsago on Feb 27 at 16:55
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Unfortunately the X and O's of this team are sort of not worth discussing right now. They could run a better designed offense, but they would still struggle due to lack of talent.

Can't really do much with a roster that lacks players who can score in the post, draw fouls or score effeciently. And on defense, they are probably overachieving given their lack of individual defenders and interior presense.

You don't think there are better offensive sets this team could run to maximize whatever talent they do have?

They could run more aggressive sets, more isolations for Jrue, attack the rim more, take more chances. Whether the net would be any better if you increased the turnovers to run that kind of offense is up in the air, though. They have a bunch of bigs who like to shoot from 20 feet and one guy who can get into the lane. I'm not sure any offense is going to really move the needle (phrase of the day, apparently).

It's possible. It won't be that much better but it's possible. At the same time, we are witnessing simpler and simpler plays as the season progresses. It's almost as if Collins is dumbing down the offense because half of the players can't grasp even the basic principles of the sets.

The offense was much better early on. It has gone progressively worse as the season went on. How much is it on opponents scouting and adjusting and how much is on too many different rotations due to injuries i don't know.

I am trying to find splits on shot locations as i write this so if i find such a stat i will post it.

Ok, so nba.com's new awesome stats page has this.

The first number is % shots in the paint, the second is mid range shots, the third is three point shots, the fourth is % of FT shots

November: 38.6% /22.7% /23.4% / 15.4%
December: 42.4% /26.7% /18.5% / 12.4%
January: 42.5% /27.5% /19.4% / 10.6%
February: 44.2% /24.7% /17.1% / 14%

In general their points in the paint and points on midrange shots have gone up, while the points off three pointers and free throws (remember the 40 per game Collins wanted in preseason?) are going down.

Do you have the link? If I remember correctly, their distances are screwy. They lump in short threes with long twos. That might be B-R.com, though.

http://tinyurl.com/c2t4sfy

This is for November. You have to browse through months separately it doesn't show them all at once.

Anyway, since a lot of NBA writers have used this database for a while now (before it became available for everyone) i think this is the most precise of them all. Actually i think it's the official one. I haven't gone though all the options but there are plenty of nice stuff here. Possibly the best site now, surpassing, B-R and hoopdata.

Oh and just for the record the offensive ratings:

100.8
100.9
98.2
100.5

While the regression on a month to month basis is minimal, i think its expected for the offense to get better over the course of the season. There was much talk about this last year and studies have shown that it happens ever year.

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eddies' heady's reply to Xsago on Feb 28 at 0:00
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"Everyone should have their own opinion on the state of affairs, when there are no hard facts."

Very well said on all of c).

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Lurker reply to Xsago on Feb 27 at 17:18
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If they knew trading Iggy was a possibility and Lou Williams had already signed with another team, why did they not attempt to find another playmaker to fill Lou's departure and Iggy's possible departure?

If as you say they had intended to trade Iggy for a low post threat, wouldn't you hedge your bets and bring in a backup point guard? I guess you could argue they thought Evan would fill the play making loss of Lou. However, they should have known Evan wouldn't be enough to fill the loss of Lou and Iggy.

In my eyes, the Bynum trade fell in their lap. They had no idea it was coming. The other off season moves don't point to a plan where Iggy was to be traded for a big. Unless shitty roster construction was their plan. In that case, they were successful.

Hawes + Kwame tells me they had no clue they were even in the hunt for Bynum.

Dude - Hawes + Kwame tells you they have no clue - whether or not the Bynum trade is made

I just hope Hawes ends the season on one of his smoke and mirrors good runs so they can trade him this summer. There are times when that contract doesn't look like a total mistake, they just need that image to be in someone's mind when the season ends.

there's that pesky optimism again

So Hibbert and Lee each only got 1 game - I think that's not enough - an intentional 2 is a game - this is more than an intentional 2 - stern really is weak in this area

gee if only there was a coach out there who could teach these guys some more complex plays...like that Princeton offense maybe...

True - that really is the only other option

I have a new theory on the Skip Bayless thing. His "source" is actually someone well-placed in the organization who's spreading bad info to drive down his price on the open market so the Sixers can swoop in and get a discount to keep him. Yeah...I'm going with that.

Thought Bynum was supposed to speak to the media after practice today.

There is no practice today. At least that's what Collins said in the presser.

Hmmn. Last night the Sixers said Bynum would be available to the media after practice today. Something doesn't smell right. I wonder if Mitchell is at PCOM waiting.

Something about the disconnect between Bynum and the front office has smelled bad for a long time. I have no idea what is the actual truth to be honest.

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johnrosz on Feb 27 at 22:24
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Monta just threw up a prayer at the buzzer, ending the Sixers season...I mean they were already dead, but now they're really dead

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Tray reply to johnrosz on Feb 28 at 0:23
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Monta's 27/6/13/6 steals line tonight is a distinction he shares with only three other players, surprisingly - Curry, Paul, and Jordan. Speaking of Curry, he had 54 (including 11 threes, one shy of the record), 6 and 7 in a losing effort. Tyson Chandler had 16 and 28. 28 boards is a rare feat; it's only been done seven times since 2000. Tonight it was especially impressive in that Chandler alone got defensive rebounds on half of Golden State's missed shots. Calderon had 18 assists to 2 turnovers, and Horford had 34, 15 and 5 blocks.

We wait all summer for the season to get this? Now its about waiting for them to do play out the string so we can see the draft and the offseason moves.

I'm sure I'll somehow be excited for the team to start next season. I just hope it doesn't all go to crap again as quickly as it did this wasted season.

Feels about time to seriously evaluate my investment in this team as a fan.

The optimist in me hopes this is going to end up as the year the Spurs franchise endured when David Robinson went down with an injury and drafted Duncan.

The pessimist in me thinks they will sign players like Al Jefferson in the offseason, kill their cap space and become mediocre again.

The realist in me thinks they will tread water until they can find a long term solution - meaning "mediocracy" until they find the long term solution.

A fan(atic) doesn't "evaluate investment"; a fan(atic) hopes and dreams, through thick and thin...

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of players whose shots are oddly frayed
Of coaches whose skin turns a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the mutants your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught.

It's too early for Rodgers and Hammerstein.

I see your point but don't share your conviction as these are the times that try fan's souls. Things are going south, and not pacifically. Our pontiff of roundball cannot - I repeat - cannot miss the last 20 seconds of tonight's mass at the United Center, the Madhouse On Madison, or there'll be hell to pay.

It's always too early for Rodgers and Hammerstein unless the only other option is that hack Andrew Lloyd Weber

Pertinence: "Oh, what a beautiful mornin'! Oh, what a beautiful day!"

I've got a sneaky feeling Sixers will skuffle back to some pride tonight, though everything won't go our way.


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