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Your Starters in February

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eddies' heady's on Mar 1 at 10:16
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How dare you throw the players under the bus like that. You shouldn't have done that publicly. Continuing to coddle them may have worked better.

This is pretty much the opposite of what Collins said, actually. Brian said that a group consisting of three bad players (and two good ones) are playing bad. That's not what Collins did. There's nothing here about how Brian could have done better as a player, plus Brian didn't pick these guys like Collins did. Not to mention, Brian doesn't "control their execution" (clearly lacking by the numbers).

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Sharone Wright on Mar 1 at 10:41
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I may sound like an idiot here, but I'll ask anyway:

I understand the TS% formula, but intuitively, does it make sense that Nick Young has a higher TS% than Jrue when he has a sigificantly lower FG% and 3PT%? Seems flawed somehow. Should a 12% FT discrepancy carry that much weight?

It's not so much FT% as it is how often you get to the line.

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Sharone Wright on Mar 1 at 10:46
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6 more made FTs makes that big a difference?

Yeah, because it's as a percentage of shots taken, and he's taken 82 fewer shots than Jrue.

Free throws are the key to efficiency, really. Shooting 50% at the line is a TS% of .568. (FT's count as 0.44 of a possession).

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Tray reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 11:16
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Do you think that the .44 formula should be refined? I'm not at all sure that the frequency of and-one calls compared to regular shooting fouls is a constant from one season to the next. In any event, it's inaccurate in any given game and people could easily figure out how many of a team's foul-shots were and-ones, or fouls on threes, or technicals, thereby making the numbers more exact.

Everything I've read about it is that it's been almost dead on historically. Obviously, going game-by-game is a better barometer. Last night, for example, Jrue's TS% was actually higher than the calculated value.

He had 22 points on 20 possessions (.550 TS%)

When you calculate it, he had 22 points on 20.32 possessions (.541 TS%)

The missed and-one hurt him.

Same with Turner last night. 12 points on 16 possessions (.375) vs. 12 points on 16.44 possessions (.365).

Which is why TS% is flawed just as any other stat out there and cannot be viewed as the end all be all of good offensive teams.
Here are a few reasons how FTs "skew" TS%:
- some players shoot FTs on defensive 3 seconds and technical fouls, others don't
- some players play at the end of quarters when it's more likely that the team is in the bonus (and will get FTs for each foul), than at the beginning of the quarter. Others only play at the beginning of quarters.
- some players receive the ball when the team knows the opponent will foul intentionally.

And then you have the obvious impact of the players playing alongside a particular player in the same lineup, but there is no need to get into that because the impact is extremely hard to measure.

I'm not saying that TS% is useless, far from it, but it's extremely overused among people who understand advanced stats IMO. Everything has to be taken into account when talking about how good a player is offensively. Stuff like: FG%, 3P%, FT%, USG rate, lineup performance data, AST% cannot be overlooked. And on top of it all you need to take into account the role a player plays on his team. It's one thing to be asked to bail the team out when they are incapable of producing a better shot, it's another to only take the easy shots you can make.

All in all, TS% needs to be put into context. Without context it's only marginally better than FG%.

All correct points. There's further analysis you can do into pretty much every stat. Even 3-point%. A couple years ago, I argued Iguodala's was artificially low because he took half-court heaves so frequently (enough to impact his overall percentage).

It's a piece of the puzzle, but there's still a bare-minimum level you need to have to be a helpful player on the offensive end. That's a bar pretty much no one on the Sixers is reaching at this point.

Oh, i'm not denying that the Sixers offense has been horrific of late far from it. Their offensive rating of 93.4 in February speaks volumes. The positive is that somehow despite their horrifically overmatched talent on defense, they are putting in some respectable numbers. I'm still trying to figure out how, a team that is relying heavily on players like Hawes, Nick Young and Pargo can post a defensive rating of 100.4 for a whole month.

What shot distance would you consider a 'heave' versus a shot attempt?

Outside say 27 feet? 4-feet beyond the line? Is that too close? Say 30 feet, maybe.

Well that's up to you - it's just something for me to add to my list - the 'heave rate' of players - be curious but needed a distance to start at :)

OK, go w/ 30 feet. I think Dorell actually takes shots from like 27 pretty regularly.

Which is why TS% is flawed just as any other stat out there and cannot be viewed as the end all be all of good offensive teams.

And I don't think intelligent people view it as the end all and be all of good offensive teams - in fact I don't know anyone who uses it as the end all and be all of good offensive teams - if people pick 'one' number it's offensive rating/efficiency of the team - which is more inclusive.

TS% just makes FT part of the shooting equation instead of treating it as a separate entity, that's all it really does, it takes FT's into account where FG% doesn't (and FG% was never really a good arbiter because obviously some FG's are worth more than others)

I think of TS% as a stat that tells you whether a guy is using his shot opportunities well. Besides which, you can't ever really have a uniform number for all players in the game due to the variety of positions and types of players, in baseball, OPS is over used by the mainstream now because it's the new number they finally understand but it's also 'universal' to all hitters in that it's always the batter in the batters box versus low post forwards, perimeter shooters, drivers, pure shooters, etc...

The issue to me has always been that while advanced stats are great in basketball they can't be as 'uniform' as they are in baseball and there are those who try to say 'advanced stats' are trying to do that (they really aren't they're just being misinterpreted by people).

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Tray reply to Xsago on Mar 1 at 12:26
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"Here are a few reasons how FTs "skew" TS%:
- some players shoot FTs on defensive 3 seconds and technical fouls, others don't...
- some players receive the ball when the team knows the opponent will foul intentionally."

How's that a skew? That's like saying, some soccer players are selected to take a team's penalty kicks and others aren't, so looking at how many goals a player scores is skewed by penalty kicks. Not at all. A team's going to get to shoot a certain number of T's over the course of the season and get foul shots on intentional fouls a certain number of times, and if you're someone who can make them, you're adding a value to your team's offense. It's not like a team's jacking up their player's efficiency by giving him free shots, the other team's giving the team free shots and the team's choosing a player who can make them to take them. It's no different than "choosing" Steve Novak to take a three out of a timeout instead of Tyson Chandler.

On the other hand, our defensive rating this month was 104.1; going into the month, we had a defensive rating of 105.3 on the season. But yes, we underperformed offensively much more than we did defensively, and I guess I would reluctantly conclude that we'll play better this month. However, 7 of our 11 February games were at home, where we played teams like the Kings, Bobcats, and Magic (twice), so as a pro-tanker, I'm hoping that the strength of the schedule will make up for any offensive improvements.

..so does anyone know yet if the Warriors are going to wear those weird sleeved jerseys tomorrow? Not sure i agree w/this guy but they certainly are..different:

Sportstorialist: The NBA Needs to Stop Its Latest Uniform Experiment - The Triangle Blog - http://es.pn/Z2zhPE

I really don't get this to be honest. I like those jersey for the simple fact that they are much closer to the average amateur basketball player. The majority of people would like to wear that kind of jerseys far more than the other ones IMO. And the best way to market it is through NBA players. Also it would be nice to have some variety.

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Mike reply to das411 on Mar 1 at 12:25
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i am kind of hoping Steph Curry is still on fire tomorrow night. i would like to witness a good performance from someone on the court.

It's very obvious that Thad hasn't been able to find his game coming back from injury. Going by TS%, he was at 63.4% in February before the injury and 35.8% after the injury. Obviously it's very small sample size either way so we'll see if the injury will have some long lasting effects on him.

He also faced his nemesis last night (though they didn't have Taj Gibson, who was his main tormentor in the playoffs).

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Markeise on Mar 1 at 11:36
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Did you guys see this?

When asked about Doug’s strong criticism Hawes commented, “(that’s) just Doug being Doug.” Turner said, “I didn’t read into it to much. When it rains it pours.” Still think DC has that locker room?

No one takes accountability for anything.

My takeaway from those two quotes is I still want both of those guys gone before opening day next season.

This seems to have launched today

http://mocapanalytics.com/

According to the ESPN playoff odds, the sixers are among a cluster of teams predicted to finish the season with 30/31 wins.

If all the other teams hit their 30 target but the sixers just lose a few extra games they could jump as high as 5th in the lottery.

No way they catch charlotte or orlando but if you're a 'let's lose' fan these projections make the three spot a reasonable goal.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

Wanna know how much each Sixer player has performed this month? Here it is:

According to netRTG, of the players that have played reasonable minutes this month 4 have "contributed positively" - Ivey, Wilkins, Moultrie and Thad and 4 have "contributed negatively" - N.Young, Pargo, Hawes, Wright. The others are right around the team average of -7 points per 100 possessions.

http://tinyurl.com/bqot65m

Here's a simpler on/off data breakdown: The usual suspects are dragging the team down: Hawes, Turner, Pargo, Wright and N.Young

http://tinyurl.com/blue2rz

Is Bynum supposed to talk to reporters today?

It looks like he is:


@tmoorepburbs
Huge media contingent at #Sixers practice today.

That's all skip bayless baby

well according to Twitter Bynum...was there...dribbled a few times...then walked downstairs away from everybody who was tweeting about him...thrilling stuff

Now if you want to read into things, the missed press session last time, avoiding the press this time one might think that there's something really bad about those knees they are avoiding announcing.

someone should ask him if that's the same source who said Doug stalks Moe Harkless

Here we go... The Sixers world is falling apart even more...

Tom Moore ‏@tmoorepburbs
#Sixers #Bynum: 'I don't really know' if I can play this season after knee swelled following scrimmage last Friday.

At least it's not his bowling knee.

It's only 'even more' if you ever believed he was going to play more than a 'token' amount of games (ala Eric Gordon last year).

They're dragging it out but none of this at all surprises me. He'll be somewhere else next year most likely - which I personally am glad about

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eddies' heady's reply to Xsago on Mar 1 at 20:37
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Heh, well, there's the flareup I was speaking of about a week ago. I'm thinking it could suddenly improve around the 1st of April, though from this comment that even seems unlikely.

"I'm 25, it's my life," Bynum says he was getting treatment at WFT during Tues nite game which is why he wasn't on the bench (like that matters), doesn't want to play in pain...this sure is starting to sound like operation shutdown is imminent...

I'd feel so much better right now if they hadn't signed Hawes/Kwame and they hadn't exercised Turner's option for next season.

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Rich reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 13:59
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Yup.

Can anyone remember a player missing an entire season for an injury that was basically never diagnosed, nor treated, nor was there a specific cause of the injury? I can't think of one.

brandon roy? was his ever diagnosed, he didnt miss a whole year though

actually he did while he was "retired"

isn't McKie still technically on someone's "injured" list?

Doesn't Bynum want people to see he can still play?

If he's knees aren't 100% or he risks more long term damage than waiting - it's smart to wait (for him) and if you're better in the off season you just hold private work outs to show people you can make the moves - that's always enough for most NBA teams anyway - remember - you can't coach height

Can't think of anyone getting a max deal coming off a season where they didn't even play. Brand and Gordon at least got back on the floor for a show-off period. Grant Hill got one coming off an injury, but that was in the playoffs after a full season.

None of them were 7 feet tall with the abilities that Bynum has when he's healthy. A good agent can sell it - and teams are desperate.

Even if he plays 5 games and shows he can move on the court he can use the 'game shape' excuse of having to play to get healthy but if he plays the last 5 games and moves without looking injured he'll be fine. All I ever really expected from him this year was the eric gordon token appearance

I just really hope someone else pays him

“Being healthy is more important than everything else,” Bynum said. “If I am healthy, I'll get a deal. I have to be able to play and I need to get to the point where I'm healthy to play.”

http://sixersdish.blogspot.com/2013/03/andrew-bynum-on-whether-hell-play-this.html

They should have just traded Iguodala to Toronto and then drafted Andre Drummond.

To Toronto for whom?

I think the 'don't trade in your division' nonsense would have hindered that. Was there a Toronto rumor that had credibility? From what I recall this Bynum thing came out public just before it was done?

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 14:19
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A google search reveals that the trade rumor was pretty decent - Calderon's expiring, Ed Davis, and the lottery pick that Toronto used to take Terence Ross. I would've done that.

Knowing what I know now, me too. Can't remember where I fell on it at the time. Know I wanted them to get up and get Drummond, don't remember my specific reaction to that rumor (if I heard it).

Yeah, I was in favor of it at the time. In favor of any move to go up and get Drummond.

Interesting re-read - I think I was in the 'just do something that works long term' camp -

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Tray reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 14:43
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The fact that they ultimately did trade Calderon and Davis for an inferior player in Gay gives some credence to the rumor, too.

At last! Even Simmons has picked up on The Narrative:

>>
11. Nikola Vucevic (Magic): 4 years, $10.6 million
It was funny to hear Doug Collins mention how much he missed the 22-year-old rebounding stud during Tuesday night's bitch session when (a) Collins held so much sway over Philly's front office that their top two GM candidates backed out last summer because they didn't want to battle him (so for him to pretend that he had nothing to do with the Andrew Bynum trade was disingenuous at best), and (b) he absolutely BURIED Vucevic during the 2012 playoffs for reasons that remain unclear. (See Zach Lowe's Philly shredding for all the gory details.) And yes, Orlando somehow winning the Dwight Howard three-way trade might have supplanted "USA 4, USSR 3" as the biggest sports upset of all time.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9002028/the-best-bargains-nba

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Scott from VT on Mar 1 at 14:52
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Seeing how the NBA lottery is rigged do you see us getting a top 3 pick (assuming we don't make playoffs) since we got nothing out of Bynum for the season? Also since Bynum said it's his life and he doesn't want to play in pain do you see him playing in pain to prove to the other teams he can still receive a max sized contract this summer?

If the nba lottery was rigged - the knicks and lakers would win it every time they were in it

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Scott from VT on Mar 1 at 14:57
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Well Cleveland getting home town Lebron for a struggling franchise.. Fast forward Lebron and decision... Enter 1st pick and get Uncle Drew.

The Cavs had the worst record in the league that year, the worst team in the league gets the 'best' chance to get the first pick in the draft, I'm not really sure how the 'best chance' winning the lottery makes things fixed.

If the NBA lottery was fixed, there's NO WAY david stern would tilt it towards a city that's headed to desolation like Cleveland or Detroit, national tv ratings are better when big city teams are better.

This conspiracy nonsense over the NBA lottery is right up there with the faked moon landing and Elvis being alive

the clippers pick won the lottery the cavs pick ended up 4th

Heck - that part I didn't even know :)

The thing that people forget about this whole conspiracy thing is that every team has a better chance of 'not' getting the first pick than of getting it.

Not to mention the whole concept of the more people that know about something the less likely it is to be 'secret' - the number of people in the conspiracy would have to be rather large - and I can't see all the owners agreeing to being screwed over in the lottery when it could be big money depending on where you end up.

I would really love to know- What made the new owners so confident in Doug Collins that they decided to make him the defacto President of the team? It couldn't have been his previous coaching stints. Yes, I guess you could argue the team overacheived a bit the time he was here, but he also had pretty coachable glue guys, like Brand and Iggy, that help make a team stick together. The fact that no one wanted to get promoted to GM by coming here should have been a red flag.

I have a theory that Collins was 'whispering in their ear' from the moment the team was purchased - only one of the ownership group knew basketball (and shocker - he's gone) and doug probably pointed out how 'great' of a job he did last year - taking them 'this close' to the eastern conference finals - they saw the attendance numbers (dollars) and probably would have given doug their intestines because they thought he was the wizard who could keep this up

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ojr107 reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 15:28
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It will be interesting to see how ownership reacts to everything that happened this season. If they decide to keep Collins, hopefully we get a GM with real power to go along with the title.

The sixers just gave DiLeo the title - you think they'll axe him after that? No way would he go back to the scout position in my mine.

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ojr107 reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 16:01
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If they think Dileo is worth keeping, they could keep him at GM and give someone else the title of President.

I believe that Tony DiLeo is Billy King to Collins Brown, maybe he got the pay bump - but it's not going to end well for him...though, I mean, maybe another billioinaire russian will buy a team and think that mediocrity in a new city is a good idea

Dallas
Houston
Atlanta
Portland
Cleveland
Charlotte
Phoenix
Detroit
Milwaukee
Sacramento
Utah

All of these teams have the cap space to sign Bynum. Which one do you think will sign him to the max?

Philadelphia.

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ojr107 reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 15:24
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Can we sign and trade him to a 5 year deal? Or can we only sign him to a 5 year deal?

Sign and trades are possible with the new CB just not with every team. I think luxury tax teams can't do sign and trades or something like that if i remember correctly.

You can't give the guy the extra year in a sign and trade.

The only teams that might try are: Dallas, Houston, Phoenix and Cleveland. The others won't even consider it IMO, regardless of the price. Realistically, unless Bynum is fully cleared by their teams medical staff, the only team that might risk it is Phoenix. They've done miracles with injured players in the past, they might try again. I also think Bynum would like that too at this point.

Assuming Bynum never plays in a Sixers uniform, this summer the Sixers:

- traded their best player and 4 number one draft picks (in 5 or 6 years) for 33 games of Jason Richardson and 22 games of Arnett Moultrie (1,118 minutes combined).

- paid Elton Brand and Andre Bynum a combined $32M to play zero minutes for their team.

I think someone's getting an NBA Executive of the Year award (if the league can figure out who's calling the shots).

I won't go there. We all agreed that the Bynum deal was a terrific deal at the time. We can't just change our mind because it hasn't worked out.

I still think it was the right move to make, and I'd probably still re-sign him if my doctors said he'll be able to play 60 games/year. The things I noted above weren't criticisms, they were facts.

I also cheered the Elton Brand signing. Doesn't mean I can't say it hamstrung them for years now.

If only they could've included the 2010 first rounder in the deal....

I'm not sure all is the correct term - i had qualms about it - being on the west coast - in laker country - i had numerous issues -

I did like the brand move though'

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Stan reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 15:56
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Has your stance on re-signing Bynum changed?
If Bynum never plays a game in a Sixers uniform, I won't lose any sleep over giving up Harkless and Vucevic. The first round picks though lottery protected will be based on who is available. Jrue, Kwahi Leonard, and Hibbert were all non-lottery picks.

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Mike reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 16:25
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i mean realistically this could go down as one of the worst trades of all-time, right?

Retroactively sure

But the barkley trade sucked from the moment it happened - it's worse

It's nice when your team winds up with 2 entries in the top five of worst trades all time :)

There should be two categories 'at the time' and 'retroactively' - remember when people though the lakers stole pau gasol?

BTW - it doesn't get as much play - but trading the draft rights of Kobe Bryant for Vlade Divac HAS to be one of the worst trades ever - i mean - bynum may be good when healthy - but kobe is one of the all timers and personally i hate the dude

Did you hear something about Bus making getting Magic a condition of buying the Lakers?

I had never heard that before - interesting if true - most google searches of jerry buss and magic johnson refer to his recent passing and memorial.

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Stan reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 16:55
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Off the top of my head, these trades were worse than Bynum:

1. Kobe for Divac
2. unprotected lottery pick (Kyrie Irving) to save $3 million
3. Dr. J for $3 million
4. Dirk for Tractor Traylor
5. Ray Allen for Gary Payton
7. Randy Foye and Mike Miller for Ricky Rubio

What did the bulls give up so they could get tyson chandler and what's his name?

"what's his name?"

Eddie curry

they actually drafted curry with the 4th pick and traded brand for chandler( the 2nd pick)

Make that 3. Acquired services of Jerry Chambers, Darrall Imhoff and Archie Clark in exchange for those of Wilt Chamberlain.

The NBA CBA severely limits incentives in contracts, right? I wish they could sign him for 3 years, w/ years four and five being player options if he plays 75% or more games in years 1-3, or team options if he plays less than 75% in years 1-3. Something like that.

Can they give him a Delmon-esque weight clause that GoSixers likes so much?

3 year max with 3rd year partially guaranteed? might get a better offer then that from another team

No. I'm saying it's 3-year max guaranteed, with year 4 and year 5 being option years. Player option if he plays 75% of the games in first 3 years, team option if he plays less than 75% of games. I think that's probably more valuable than a straight 4-year max from another team.

sorry if i worded it wrong but thats what i want

Can you put appearance qualifications like that into a contract? What happens if the team just decides 'we don't want to pay you' and keeps him on the bench so he doesn't make the 75%?

I think Bynum's next contract will have a health related clause no matter which team signs him. No GM is that crazy. They understand that it's their job on the line if Bynum sits too many games.

One issue to consider is the 'amare' problem - will bynums next contract be insurable? I think if not that will give teams some pause. I don't know that you can have a 'health' related clause can you? Not sure how many clauses NBA contracts have actually aside from the CBA negotiated 'super a' clauses regarding All star appearances and mvp awards

I'd like to have team options each year.

Yeah - no agent would allow his player to agree to that - note - I believe Tommy Lasorda never had a long term deal witht he O'malleys - just a handshake deal every year - he was evaluated year to year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see bynum sign a short deal somewhere where he can be 'the guy' - if he believes he's going to have healthy knees again - he's still pretty young - i mean - how many teams are going to maneuver for 2014 cap spaces to play the lebron game, again?

John Wall and Evan Turner (or at least Turner's defenders) have a lot in common.

In 2014 Cleveland has team options for Waiters, Thompson, Zeller and Irving that total $18 million and Varajao's contract is only guaranteed for $4 million. Cleveland can sign Bynum to the max, keep Irving, Waiters, and Zeller, and have enough cap space to sign Lebron.

If the Sixers want him, they'll get him. Doesn't really matter who else would be interested. A guy w/ this type of knee issue can't turn down the extra year and the added money.

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mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 17:52
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he memphis game, perhaps turner's best of the season, was his seventh in a row with an O rating of ninety seven or greater. his average o rating in that stretch was 107. since that game, he has ha ONE game with an o rating greater than 89(last sunay vs NYK, 104). He has not ha a single game with a TS of .500 or better. As bad as those numbers are, they on't even properly convey his putrid level of performance.

I am disgusted with Turner for checking out on the season in late January, but the head coach bears SOME of the blame for this as well. Three years of undermining the confience of a mentally fragile player, and what happened down the stretch vs Memphis looks to have been the straw that broke the gimpy camel's back.

Again, I am disgusted with Turner and I would like to see him moved in the offseason. But just as it would be absurd for me to put all the blame on Collins for Turner's failings, it is absurd also to not to see his failure as a player as, in some part, a reflection on the coaching.

I don't want either guy back in Philly next year. They have both failed this team and us as fans.

#balancedperspective

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Tray reply to mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 18:01
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"But just as it would be absurd for me to put all the blame on Collins for Turner's failings, it is absurd also to not to see his failure as a player as, in some part, a reflection on the coaching."

No, he's just an untalented player who's been given more chances than a good coach would've given him.

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mymanjrue reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 18:44
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He's been given chances, true, but not the right chances. Two years of being yanked around on a two foot leash turned into running him out for thirty five minutes a night no matter what. That isn't giving a guy a chance to succeed. It's irresponsible coaching. Especially when Doug began undermining him in the media in December, when Jrue went down for a few games. So he doesn't have the coach's backing and confidence, yet he has the minutes. Your opinion of him as a player is well founded and I don't quibble with it. He is who he is. A deeply flawed guy-who has been utilized in a deeply flawed way by a deeply flawed head coach. Both need to go.

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Tray reply to mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 19:32
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I think it's possible that our assistant coaches aren't so great at player development, and that Collins is into a brand of offense that encourages Turner's worst qualities, but I don't get how you can blame Collins for lacking confidence in Turner, or somehow blame Turner's play on his getting too many minutes.

Contortionism is a difficult thing

I have to wonder - are the sixers coaches worse than the phillies minor league pitching coaches?

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mymanjrue reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 19:57
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that's not what I'm doing. All I'm trying to say is-Turner sucks as a player AND Collins sucks as a coach. It's not either or. Saying one thing is not a denial of the other

At times you seemed to be 'making excuses' for Turner sucking as a function of Collins sucking, but I have to ask - wouldn't the opposite also be true.

This sixers team - without bynum all season - is MUCH less talented than last years version - I don't like Doug Collins - and if he built the roster - then it's on him - but could any coach get much more out of a team with such limited talent?

Sure, doug runs a stupid offense, but what offense is going to work with this motley crew?

The failure of Collins is not as coach - it's of GM which - I don't care what anyone says - he's calling the shots like Larry Brown did - and thus if he's relieved of coaching duties at the end of the season but still involved in the front office it's a fail - he must be sent packing back to TNT where he and chuck can commiserate about how bad it is to have to work in Philadelphia. (Stuipd ass hats, I'd be back there tomorrow if I could find a darn job there).

If they both suck - and you're saying they both suck - then you have to stop making 'excuses' for Turner that say 'he'd be better if doug did this or did that'

The issue (it seems) is that you seem to be 'qualifying' Turners suckness as a factor of Collins poor coaching - but since the talent is bad - I mean how much more could Collins get out of this team really?

I advocated using the amnesty on Elton Brand - I knew it made the team worse in the short term on the court - but I thought they'd make smart use of money - but they didn't

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 21:53
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Fair enough. I acknowledge my bias. I turned on COllins a long time ago. I guess I just wish others would acknowledge their bias-whether it be pro-Collns, anti-Turner or other guys, or just anti NBA player in general, as is clearly the case with some-and take a look at what COllins has done wrong.

You do a good job of summing up the excuses that can be made for Collins. There is some truth in them, just as there is some truth in the excuses I make for Turner. I would say that his slow paced offensive system maximizes the ineffectiveness of the roster that he built.

Additionally, I would point out that part of ther eason it is so tempting to me to focus on COllins' faults is that he is out there all the time deflecting blame, laying it at the feet of players, when a)he should have known these guys strengths and weaknesses when he assembled the roster and b)despite his frequent insistence that he has exhausted every possible option for putting this deeply flawed roster in position to do better when he really hasn't changed anything, beyond making constant and counterproductive kneejerk adjustments to the rotation...play Moultrie, get him in the pick and roll with Jrue, have them push the ball(which plays to the strengths of his two best guys, Jrue and Thad)...he does the same thing over and over, maybe switching some Nick Young/Dorell Wright for some Damien Wilkins or Jeremy Pargo or Royal Ivey. Actually, Dorell Wright has the most legit gripe against Collins of anyone on the roster save Moultrie. The guy has been fucked with all year, and often can't gert on the court...when he has performed better than just about all the other options.

Yeah, Collins gets my goat...and my reasons are legit. The players likewise get a lot of poster's goat, and there reasons are legit too-I can acknowledge that.

There's a consensus to be had, and it's a pox on both their houses

Well it's well known that I've never been a fan of Collins - I'm not a fan of system coaches who can't adjust. Give me a guy who knows basketball - well - and looks at his roster - analyzes the strengths and weaknesses and knows how to maximize the strengths an minimize the weaknesses of the entire team - a guy who can adjust if a guy breaks out - or focusing on the hot hand when it's hot.

I don't know who the guy is, so don't ask me what 'name' to use - but that's the guy I'm looking for - a guy who understands todays NBA and his roster...perferably someone who has at least been active in college ball in the past decade :)

As for Turner - it's just a dead horse - everyone has their sides - it's one of those things I'm just going to stay away from now on - like discussions about abortion - no one listens to the other side...I think it's partly because there's nothing good to talk about, there's nothing to really look forward to, there's no bynum promise, the draft isn't all that exciting, there's just the rest of the season and then probably a boring disappointing off season and more likely than not the return of the same core of guys next season - as some just have contracts that mean no one else will want them.

The only glimmer of hope that I believe I can look forward to this off season is that I'm wrong about the new ownership group and they'll just clean house and bring in talented intelligent basketball people

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 22:04
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well said. agreed

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Rodney reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 20:50
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But if Collins brand of offense was encouraging Turner's worst qualities, wouldn't it be relentless attacking of the rim (to no avail) and hoisting up lots of 3's (yikes) instead of mid-range 2's?

I don't think Turner's confidence was undermined - he still shoots a lot - he still dribbles too much - he still whines to the refs and raises his hand demanding the ball a lot.

Turners shot was broken when he entered the league - it's not fixed - that's on Turner

Turner dribbles with his head down and has no court vision - that's on him

Turner complains a whole lot for no apparent reason - that's on him

If his confidence was so easily shaken - he doesn't belong in the NBA anyway

As much as I dislike Collins - Turners failures are his own - it's not his psyche - it's his ability that fails

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 18:38
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I don't entirely disagree with any of your points. Especially that if Turner's confidence is so fragile, he can't be an NBA player. However, I do disagree that the only factor in his disgustingly bad past month is his ability. Energy and motivation are totally lacking. Sure he is dribbling and shooting, but lazily, with no heart. That's not a guy who I want on my team. But it's also not a guy who is well coached.

Collins has used Turner as a scapegoat his entire career. SOmetimes with good reason, sometimes not. That may contribute to the fragility of his confidence.

I watched the third quarter of game four vs Boston recently, as well as chunks of game two vs Chicago. Turner was excellent in the latter game, horrendous statistically in the latter. In both games, he was going hard at all times-attacking the rim, RUNNING down the floor on offense, giving one hundred percent effort on D> Even in that Boston game, when he shot less than twenty five percent from the floor, Turner helped the team. When evertyone else was deflated and seemed like they were about to roll over, Turner kept being aggressive and getting to the hole. He couldn't convert in the first half, but he kept at it.. In the third, the Sixers comeback from an eighteen point deficit was sparked by Turner making plays...two free throws, a d board pushed up the floor for an oop to Dre, a take to the basket for a layup, a transition slam. The rest of the team picked it up from that point forward. His energy helped spark the team despite his limitations. We haven't seen that motivate player in some time.

Again, the lion's share of the blamme for this is on Turner, his abilities and his mental makeup.

My point is that a failure of coaching plays a role as well.

Watching those games I also noticed how much Turner and other reacted to Elton Brand. His effort, especially defensively, was undoubtedly better for wanting not to let down a teammate who he respected. That's a factor as well, not just in Turner's dogshit play, but the lack of defensive intensity across the board. No one commands respect on the floor.

Unlike Collins, I am not trying to shift blame here. Blame Turner, by all means-I do and so should you; he deserves it. But blame Collins just a little too. Turner may not be a real starting two guard even if he had been perfectly handled and used. We'll never know. But I think the right coach COULD have made him a positive rotational contributor and a guy who gives his all at all times.

I think that if Turner is traded, as he should be, he will iimprove at his next stop. I think that with a clean slate, he can be a contributor in this league. He is limited, but he is not as bad as the past month. This coach never figured out how to communicate with him and never figured out what role to put him in.

Same can be said for Hawes. Hawes has never been anything but what he is-a soft big, a shooting guard in a center's body, a jump shooter who shies away from contact, allergic to physical play and banging, and a subpar rebounder for his height. That's not a guy I want on my team, but Collins signed him. To sign him knowing full well the player that he is, ask him to do things he has never been able to do, then rip him in the media for quite predictably not getting the job done is just brutal on the part of the head coach.

Point is-argument over who to blame, coach or players, is a false one. Both deserve blame. To defend Collins and heap blame on the players-even the most disappointing players-is to see only what you want to see-0and vice versa. The only reasonable conclusion, in my view, is to say that this is a poorly constructed roster that has been poorly coached. At least the players are not pointing fingers in the press. Both the roster and the head coach need to be changed in the offseason. Until then, pray for ping pong balls

Energy and motivation are totally lacking. Sure he is dribbling and shooting, but lazily, with no heart

Are you saying it's the coaches job to make sure a player has motivation and energy - to play with heart?

A player on his rookie deal that the entire league is down on?

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 18:51
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I would say that yes, that is actually the entirety of a coach's job-to make sure his guys show up ready to play. Collins has failed to do that on any kind of regular basis since mid December. Turner is not the only one.

Even Jrue looks sluggish, particularly after he secured the all star berth that seemed to be motivating him even as the team's nosedive began.

Like I keep saying, it's a shared responsibility. Players and coach have a job to do. Neither the players or the coach are getting their job done.

Every guy on the team has a "for who?for what?" thought bubble. Can't excuse them for that. Also can't excuse the coach for lacking the ability to motivate his team. Especially a guy like Collins, whose ability to motivate seems to be his main calling card-seeing as he spurns analytics and talks disdainfully of "xs and os"

He's saying its half Jrue's fault and half Collins' fault that Turner sucks. Jrue just does what he wants out there (freezing Turner out) Collins wasn't nice enough to Turner. You'd be pouting, too, if you were poor Evan Turner. That's the message he tried to hide in the middle of 6,000 words. Set poor Evan free so he can go excel in a more nurturing environment.

It's Doug's fault Turner has been out of shape and overmatched since he set foot on the floor in summer league three years ago.

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Tray reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 18:57
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Maybe if Turner played with a warm encouraging point guard like Ricky Rubio*, he'd be a whole different player.

* http://youtu.be/Po5faPzrGTY

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mymanjrue reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 19:03
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Maybe if the head coach did not play favorites and have scapegoats there would not be mistrust between the kids on the team, and they could hold each other accountable in a constructive way. I don't see much of that.

Half of the stuff I've said about Jrue v Turner was tongue in cheek. To the extent that it was NOT, I don't even blakme Jrue necessarily. He is the teacher's pet, and Turner is the dunce. Jrue didn't create that dynamic, and it is actually just as unfair to Jrue as it s to Turner.

My guess is that in that Memphis game where Jrue was not passing to Turner down teh stretch, Collins probably said something like Jrue you need to go out and get this win for us, take over this game, blahblahblah-basically putting Jrue in that Lou Williams role down the stretch of close games that killed the team time and again last year(including in game one vs boston).

Every coach in the NBA has favorites - Phil Jackson had favorites, Pop has favorites

Serously - WTF - is Evan Turner Jan Brandy stomping his feet going 'marcia marcia marcia'

I have this issue with my boss at work - she's slow in figuring out when people need to go - so when I tell her people need to go she thinks it's because I don't like them - honestly - I don't care about the people i work with - i don't want them fired because i don't like them - i don't like them because they should be fired, they're hurting the company.

If Evan Turner PEROFMRED well i doubt you'd accuse Collins of playing favorites because he would go to Turner.

It's just more excuses

Get over it - in life - your boss won't be nice to you - suck it up and earn things

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mymanjrue reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 19:11
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You're missing the point. I'm not excusing Turner. I am so disgusted with Turner's shit, I don't want him on my team anymore. I am also disgusted with Collins, and I don't want him coaching whoever is brought in to replace Turner-ESPECIALLY not another high lottery pick.

It's Doug's fault, and it's Jrue's fault, and it's Doug pulling Jrue's strings. I can't imagine where I'd get the notion that you're blaming everyone but Evan. How many times has Turner been benched this year? How many times has he played fewer than 30 minutes? If there's anyt freezing out going on, it's Turner freezing out the rest of the team whenever he gets his hands on the ball. Happens every single game, check the tape from last night for an example. Jrue hit back to back shots twice, look what happened on the third possession each time. Or go back to the previous game in the fourth quarter, exact same thing.

The only thing worse than Turner's performance is his attitude, the only thing worse than his attitude is having to hear people constantly make excuses for him.

Is sense of entitlement part of attitude?

Come on - at least if they had chosen cousins there would have been that upside to dazzle you every once in a while - admit it - cousins would ahve been the more fun pick?

It'd be just as annoying because Doug would've never played him. Probably would've been better for the team because he'd have more trade value at this point. A headcase with size is better than an overmatched sad sack.

Poor Evan has to wear the dunce cap, waaaaaaa. I wish someone would make him write "the NBA is not the Big 10" a thousand times a day on a blackboard.

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 19:41
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Cousins's TS% is up to .515, by the way, and he's put together two straight solid months.

Hey - I'm pro bringing him to philly :)

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mymanjrue reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 19:20
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Brian you're hearing waht you expect to hear rather than what I'm saying. You make good points about the number of minutes Turner has played and the freedom he's been given. Like I said to Tray, DC has gone from keeping him on the shortest leash possible to letting him roam wildly with no leash. Bad coaching. Putting a guy in a position to fail by giving him responsibilities beyond his abilities.

I agree on Turner's attitude. It drives me crazy to watch him anymore. He is not the player I wanted him to be, and the first two people I blame for that are me, for unrealistic expectations, and him, for poor conditioning, bad attitude, and most unforgivably, dumb basketball.

But as mch blame as Turner deserves, saved some for Collins. Turner is by far-leaps and bounds-the most inefficient player on the team, and he has the second highest usage rate. His players are unmotivated, disengaged, and he routinely asks guys to do things they can't do(like the Hawes-0another player I never want to see in a Sixers uniform again-example I used somewhere in this thread)

Rip the players, by all means. I won't argue. But save a few rips for the coach. Even if his share of the blame is just twenty percent, he must shoulder it.

At least I don't have to listen to the players blaming other people to an amen choir of "journalists"-this group of immature and lackluster basketball players has actually shown more maturity than their coach in the press.

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Tray reply to mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 19:47
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Just let us know what this happy medium is between benching Turner when he screws up and giving him lots of minutes. It kind of sounds like anything Collins could do with Turner would be a mistake in your view.

Absolutely. Fucking Sixers assholes never give Evan a hug.

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mymanjrue reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 19:07
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Dudes, how clearly can I say it-0Turner sucks and he needs to go. He ahs been dogging it for a month. I see him whining and I want to slap him in the face.

Does that change that he, like everyone else on the team, has been poorly served by bad head coaching?It does not

I hope that next November, Turner is in a different uniform and Collins in a broadcast booth or some other type of padded room

Hmm...yes, hug he does need

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Geese reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 19:40
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Is there a point to your stupidity or do you just do things like this for shit's & giggles, Brian?

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mymanjrue reply to Brian on Mar 1 at 18:57
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Brian-0I have been guilty of making excuses for Turner in the past. I'm done with that. Turner is a dog at this point. I have given up on him. I want him to go. I'm not hiding any agenda in my words here. I'm stating clearly what my actual views are, since I know many view me as an apologist. I am not making apologies any more. Turner has to be moved this summer.

But Collins has to go as well. He has not done his job as a coach, with Evan Turner or with anyone else.

Collins has effed up Jrue as well. Playing favorites with him, giving him too large a burden. Encouraging him to be a gunner(like Collins was_). I think Jrue would be a better all around player with better coaching, no doubt. He may be the biggest victim of Collins' failures, being the most talented guy on the team.

Your comment is inaccurate and unfair. I am trying to say that both the [players that have failed and the coach that has put them in position to fail deserve blames. Several of the players-0Turner, Hawes, Young etc-must not be brought back. The coach must not be brought back either.

No hidden agenda there, and no need for vitriol

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mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 18:10
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The following Sixers have a better O Rating than Jrue Holiday:

Thad(+6)
Dorell Wright(+6)
Lavoy(+5)
Nick Young(+3)
Royal Ivey(+11)
Arnett Moultrie(+17)

The following Sixers have a better WS/48 than Jrue:

Thad(+.047)
Dorell Wright(+.032)
Lavoy(+.012)
Moultrie(.072)
while these Sixers are right in his neighborhood:
Spencer Hawes(-.003)
Nick Young(-.002)
Royal Ivey(+.001)

Jrue Holiday has by far the highest usage rate on the team. High usage, low efficiency. The guy with the second highest usage rate, Evan Turner, has by FAR the lowest o rating among minute getters, and by FAR the lowest WS/48

Draw your own conclusions. Mine are that this is a terrible roster whose best player has been overused ane overextended and allowe to play as he chooses. My take is that the coach has taken lemons and turned them into shit, and lemonade into lemons and then into shit

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Tray reply to mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 18:38
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What conclusion am I to draw from this, that Ivey and Lavoy and Nick should be used more than Jrue or something? The only issues I have as far as usage goes are Turner's overuse, Wright's underuse, and Moultrie not getting any minutes.

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mymanjrue reply to Tray on Mar 1 at 20:02
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Yeah those are my top three conclusions as well...also that Jrue is being overextended.

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Tom Moore on Mar 1 at 18:55
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Sixers story (with Bynum video): Bynum: 'Being healthy is more important than everything else'

http://www.phillyburbs.com/sports/sixers/bynum-i-might-not-play-at-all-this-year/article_112d3457-6f8f-5f0e-a745-537bca3dbbde.html

Bill Simmons doesn't know how the sixers are going to recover from the Andrew Bynum situation - and he said Evan Turner MIGHT not be a starter :)

SIgh "Possibly one of the worst drafts ever" according to the ESPN wonks (Jalen, Simmons, Magic)

This means that the sixers probably will win the draft lottery

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 20:11
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What do all three of these people have in common? Hint: knowing nothing about the players in the draft.

They know more than you or I do - they have access to more footage and information anyone here not with the initials DB

Plus they have access to people we can't possibly hope to know

It's not just ESPN - this is just not seen as a good draft anywhere that I've read

The sixers need to stink during a GOOD draft year

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 20:31
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Somehow I don't picture Jalen or Magic plopping himself down in front of draft prospect footage. Simmons, maybe, but he's a notoriously inept evaluator of draft talent. Anyway, people always say the draft's weak. Here's a piece on the 2011 draft, for example:

"One Western Conference general manager was more succinct in his analysis of this year’s pool of available players.

“It’s horrendous,” he said. “Every year we always talk about how bad the draft is. This year we really mean it.”

Colangelo considers Duke freshman point guard Kyrie Irving and Arizona sophomore forward Derrick Williams the top prospects available, but said the rest of the draft holds a lot of “murkiness.”"

But in reality, there were some good-to-great value picks at 11 (Klay Thompson), 15 (Kawhi Leonard), 16 (Vuce), 38 (Chandler Parsons), 60 (Isaiah Thomas)... and I think Jonas, Kemba, Tobias Harris, and possibly even Motiejunas are going to be good players.

So - now that numerous horses have been beaten - names have been called - people's panties are no longer in a twist

What do you want to see going forward the rest of the season regarding players used.

If the sixers had made the raptors trade there would be a lot more players we could 'clamor' for to see what they have - but as far as I'm concerned - the next 20 games or so have to at least PARTIALLY see what the sixers have in terms of the guys Collins hasn't been playing. And as the GM collins has to know that - this season is lost - the playoffs aren't going to happen - put those young guys in serious minutes - see what they can handle - stop coaching like you have a gold bar jammed up your ass

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Geese reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 20:11
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I want to see Moultrie inserted into the starting line up. I want Moultrie to get more minutes, I've liked what I've seen from him so far & I wanna see more. When the season ends, I wanna see Collins gone before I worry about any of the players. I just want Ole Cranky Pants, gone.

I figured Moultrie would be the one thing I hope everyone could agree on. If the 'other' Iguodala trade went down there'd be more 'young guys' to play - sadly - this is an older mediocre team with not a lot of upside - I mean Jrue still has some - but aside from that - sheesh - that's depressing

As tk76 likes to say (paraphrasing) the worst place to be in the NBA is in the middle - and the sixers are in the middle - not bad enough or good enough - and unless steve martin can heal Bynums knees (it's an awesomely underrated movie folks) I don't see a way 'out' of the middle without a massive implosion (purposeful)

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Geese reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 20:26
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I'm not actually depressed & I don't find it depressing. The NBA is set up so you do have to hit rock bottom, for any real chance to get beyond the mediocre middle. It's ironic that basketball is a team sport, but the NBA has found a great way to neutralize the team aspect & turn it into an all or nothing, you have to have a "superstar" to actually go anywhere, kind of thing.

I think it will ultimately be the death of the league as people find better ways to spend their time & money. I'd rather they blow it up, though. I'd rather the Sixers just blow it all up. Jrue will still be here, Thad will be here, everyone else can walk including the coach & his staff, & hopefully Moultrie will still be here. But we gambled... And we crapped out. I myself? I can live with it, now it's time to just move on. I already know though for these new owners, that is NOT what they wanted or what they wanted to see, hear, or have happen. But this is what happens when you gamble. We lost. It happens. Let's move on.

I just found the roster make up depressing - I've been advocating the sixers hitting rock bottom for a while - like over a decade - but I still don't think the new ownership is going to do it.

If the sixers could turn Thad into younger talent and/or maybe recover a draft pick in the plethora they gave away - I'm fine with him being gone.

The sixers gambled on Bynum, but I thought the odds were against them so I'm not surprised they lost - I'm just concerned that new ownership won't do anything ever again

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Geese reply to GoSixers on Mar 1 at 20:51
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Now, THAT!? Is a GREAT POINT. You do have a real reason to worry about that after this giant failure. They may not try something like this again. But hopefully they won't do that, because with the way the league is set up you can pull off some good trades. You really do have to be careful of what you are doing though & who it is that you're trying to bring in & who it is you are trading with.

Bad part is what I said is so basic that you'd think it should be understood, but I'm getting the sense from these guys that it isn't really about being attentive to detail, moreso than, making a big splash to make a big splash. I guess we'll see, because if it was all about big splash-affect to put butts in the seats & build a "brand", then yes. They will become afraid to do anything like this again. If they gambled with the full intent of getting better & not just about making the Sixers RELEVANT AGAIN. Then they'll learn from this mistake & try again & not ignore the fact that they needed to bring in 22 doctors, was it?

That part is kind of crazy. 2 should be enough. 22? Now that's just overkill & clearly to need THAT MANY opinions, is too much. Pass!

My believe on the new ownership is that relevancy doesn't matter so much as the P/L - clippers east before they won the lottery and sterling took his one shot at paul (though let's see if he's willing to pony up for paul this off season) - terrible team but profitable - everytime these guys talk they 'smell' fake to me - like they're saying the right things because someone tells them what to say and they're just in it for the profit and saw a deal when comcast decided to take 60 cents on the dollar.

There's on great owner in Philadelphia (Eagles) there's on spendy owner who doesn't hire the right people (Flyers) there's a group that spends money but relies on an idiot (Phillies) and then there's the nonsense that goes on with my favorite Philadelphia sports team and even 3000 miles away for the past 17 years I can't find a way to stop being interested in being a fan of them.

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mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 22:05
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results around the league tonight not good for our lottery hopes

The sixers hold their lottery destiny in their own hands pretty much :)

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Tray reply to mymanjrue on Mar 1 at 23:52
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At least the Hornets and Suns won, bringing them to within a doable 3 games back. I'm not too worried about the Raptors or Pistons so long as we keep up the bad play. We need Irving back though. They're another team that could catch us.

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eddies' heady's on Mar 2 at 10:11
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If the Sixers don't win tonight vs Golden State or tomorrow night @ Washington, and can't pull out a road win against a better playing Orlando team next Sunday, is it possible they don't win another game this whole month until they play at home vs Charlotte on March 30th?

I don't see them winning any games on the West coast trip, not even at Sacramento, though that one is their best chance to get even one.

They are going through a rough patch, every team goes through one every now and then. They will win a few games. Not a ton since they have a serious lack of talent but 5 wins in a month sounds about right. They might even win more than that.

If you're one of the worst 10 teams in the league - is that a rough patch or do you just stink?

The recent losing streak is a rough patch even for the worst 5 teams in the league.

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eddies' heady's reply to Xsago on Mar 2 at 10:51
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With this schedule and all the road games there's no way I can see them pulling out 5 wins. I'll give them 3 and that's a maximum. If they do win 3 this month I'll be surprised. 2 or 1 seems like more of a possibility. If they don't win today or tomorrow that possibility increases mightily. Only chances I see are @ Orlando (which I don't think they'll win) or @ Sacramento (a toss up) and Charlotte at home (best chance).

vs GSW
@ WSH
vs BOS
@ ORL
vs BRO
vs POR
@ SAC
vs MIL
@ CLE
vs CHA

That's 10 very winnable games right there. I'm sure they will figure out a way to win half of those. They also have 8 games in total at home, where they are 16-15 on the season. Not to mention i am certain they will win a game noone expects them to. Even the worst teams in the NBA do that every now and then.

At this point i hope they lose as much as possible, but noone is that bad.

April on the other hand is a hole different situation. They might go on an extended losing streak in April.

For those who don't know, tonight's game is on NBA TV

well if the Lakers amnesty Kobe there would be another "superstar" out there they could massively overpay for

I do wonder if people who focus on complaining about Turner's mannerisms are doing him a service. It's the level of play that's always been the problem. I know it's frustrating as a fan to watch a player who thinks he's way better than he really is, but the team doesn't really seem to mind him that much. It's not an effort thing either, because I don't think he gives anywhere near below-average effort for an NBA player. He just isn't a good player who has been given a million opportunities.

Anyways, it was a big mistake picking up his option and I don't think he or Hawes is tradeable for anything that isn't just as bad as they are. I'd really be thinking about a complete tank job next year to get in the Wiggins sweepstakes. Looking at the lottery, the Harrison twins are really intriguing as well (from somebody who isn't a draft expert). I think that would be a good year to be really bad. So is it worth it to bite the bullet with Hawes and Turner for one more year and stink?

I wouldn't want to take any additional years for a player that you would get back for Hawes or Turner. That's what I'm afraid of.


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