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Going Through the Motions vs. ATL

Wow, glad I dodged that bullet by not going to last night's game. one word: SHITSHOW.

My only wish for tonite is that my boy Swaggy-P blows up for 50! that would be awesome.

What Aron had to say about Bynum is pretty telling, in my opinion. I think it would be a huge mistake to gamble anymore on that guy.

Off-topic (but only a little), I was looking through the last few drafts and the Sixers haven't done too badly for where they have drafted. Too early to tell for 2012, but Harkless has shown as much promise as anyone outside of Anthony Davis, Lillard, and Beal (maybe). David Thorpe of ESPN rates Harkless #5 in the class.

The 2011 draft might rival 2010 for the worst of the last ten years. Who goes #2 on a re-draft of that class? Probably Faried. And I'm thinking Vucevic might be a top-5 pick in a re-draft. For 2010, Evan Turner might still be at the bottom of the top 10, behind Wall, Favors, Cousins, Monroe, Hayward (maybe), Paul George (re-draft #1), Ed Davis (maybe), Patrick Patterson (maybe), Larry Sanders, and Avery Bradley (maybe). But Turner was the Sixers' only real "mistake" for where they drafted in recent years.

2009 (Jrue's year) was a much stronger draft class, but Jrue might be top-5 in a re-draft, definitely behind only Blake Griffin, Harden, and Stephen Curry and on par with Rubio and Lawson. For 2008, Speights would probably go lower in a re-draft, but only because that was a very strong draft class top-to-bottom. Check out the last-first-rounders/early-second-rounders from that class: Hibbert, JaVale McGee, Hickson, Ryan Anderson, Courtney Lee, Koufos, Ibaka, Batum, George Hill, Pekovic, Mario Chalmers, DeAndre Jordan, Asik, Dragic.

Tray reply to Statman on Apr 10 at 11:13

Ed Davis and Patterson and Bradley are no maybes; all three are overwhelmingly more valuable than Turner. But yeah, a lot of people (me included) have been mentioning this in threads lately.

Statman reply to Tray on Apr 10 at 11:29

Sorry, I haven't kept up with all the threads given my apathy for this Sixers team. Everyone was praising Houston for stealing Thomas Robinson from the Kings, but do you think it's possible that the Kings got the better of that trade with Patterson? He's got an excellent jumper for a PF.

I've been saying this too and people thought i was insane. So far Robinson has been a borderline NBA player. He can't deal with NBA level of athleticism at all. And Patterson is a nice and useful player - legit stretch 4.

Tray reply to Statman on Apr 10 at 15:29

Yeah, that's totally possible, though I think the odds still favor Houston's end of the deal, slightly. I'm sure we could think of a lot of high-ceiling prospects with lousy rookie seasons who eventually lived up to their potential, or came close enough that you'd value them over a decent role player.

I don't disagree. They've drafted well for the past decade. The only draft they've really blown is the one they really couldn't afford to blow. Of course, they've drafted well over the past decade and they've got 1 playoff series win to show for it.

Matt reply to Brian on Apr 10 at 16:34

That's why many fans advocate tanking. The Sixers have used their picks reasonably well for ten years, but still haven't enjoyed much success. A big part of the problem is their picks are rarely high enough to matter.

I think the moral of the story is it's better to be lucky than good when it comes to drafting. Or at least you have to be lucky before being good matters. One more ping pong ball going the other way and OKC is trying to figure out how to stop Harden and Westbrook from choking each other every night and they're hovering around 45 wins every year.

Matt reply to Brian on Apr 10 at 17:11

Lucks a big part of the draft and many transactions build a roster, but OKC would never have had the chance to be lucky enough to strike gold with Durant (or Harden, or Westbrook) if they picked 12th every year. Granted ping pong balls determine the draft, but a team maximizes its odds for a high pick when it loses more than other teams.

But not all drafts are created equal - so tanking doesn't always make sense even if your team is bad if the draft is weak - because then you're just over paying someone not talented enough to get picked as high in a good draft as they were in their draft.

The sixers 'bad luck' was that they chose to tank in a crappy draft year

For instance

This guy is getting a lot of hype and might be worth tanking for :)

Tray reply to GoSixers on Apr 11 at 17:12

Had we picked Favors that year, we'd either have a way better frontcourt now, or Williams/Melo, maybe even Paul.

Stan reply to Statman on Apr 10 at 11:36

You can't really complain about their draft since the 1998 debacle. They lost out on a few gambles like Speights and Rodney Carney and missed out on guys like Marc Gasol, Tony Parker and Rajon Rondo. But for the past 15 years, I'd give them a B.

I saw Chad Ford's got us taking Zeller who just declared. I'm pretty lukewarm on him. I'd much rather have his teammate Victor O but he'll probably go top five. Thoughts on Cody?

Looks like he'll be pretty useless in the NBA to me.

buke reply to speeke on Apr 10 at 13:33

There are lots of mock draft boards and there is nothing especially trustworthy about Chad Ford's so consult numerous boards to get a fuller perspective of who might be falling to #11.

I have watched Zeller in about five games this year. I really don't care much for him. Just because I don't like him much doesn't mean he can't be a good pro but I would prefer that the team take someone else. I would be quite happy with Oladipo on the other hand. He is a good athlete and a tough and aggressive defender. While he is not a volume scorer, his 1.35 points per full shot taken during the regular season should spark interest among the stat enthusiasts.

I would still prefer that they take Kelly Olynyk if he is available to make up for losing Vucevic. I know some people think he will be a soft Canadian hippy bust but I think he has a fair chance of being pretty productive.

I'm also interested in who they will take in the second round - at least with the higher pick. They ought to be able to select someone who can do something of value with that pick. The attitude seems to be that this draft is weak but I think this draft has a chance of providing some decent rotation players.

I didn't see the game last night, but 17 points from Reggie Evans (just as an add-on to Lopez's 29) speaks volumes about the quality of the 76ers' interior defense.
I would guess that he scored some of those from offensive rebounds since he was able to pull down 24 rbs. against the Sixers.

There is no one on this team - and I mean no one - who should be considered as absolutely essential to the future of the franchise.

Yeah, I think you can say the same thing about pretty much every lottery team. Or really any team that doesn't play their home games in Miami, OKC or maybe LA.

If you don't have that cornerstone guy, everyone is expendable to get him.

so the key question, as always, comes down to is #33 that cornerstone guy?

One thing I forgot to mention, and it really didn't mean a whole lot in that hot mess last night, but when are the Sixers going to learn not to switch the small-on-small picks against the Nets? I mean, it's cost them how many games over the past three years and they continue to insist on doing it.

sissy 3 8 for his last 13 form 3

feel et has been running more point early

nice sneaks dorell

moultrie putback and one?

yep makes the ft


18 for thad


john jenkins is good

jrue is not playing well again

Thad POTG. I wish this season would end already

Iguodala last night: 12-13-10

You forgot the 7 turnovers (35.4%), 1-4 from the free throw line and the 82 ORtg. Darn details.

And a familiar looking 12pt, 5 rebound season, on 44% shooting (57% from the charity stripe) for roughly 15 million dollars.

I miss 'em.

Yep. And their next win will be one more than they ever had in a season with Carmelo. Iguodala is such a loser, look at his PPG!

Iguodala's .089 WS/48 is bettered by twelve (12) of his teammates.

Yet he's the only significant addition to last year's team and their winning percentage has gone from .576 to .692. They've gone from 20th in DFR to 11th. All of which has absolutely nothing to do with Iguodala, who is obviously overrated.

Javale McGee for a full season and his maturing game seem to help a bit as well

I'm not sure if this is ironic or not. McGee plays 18 minutes/game.

Tray reply to Brian on Apr 11 at 11:19

And yet bkref seems to think he's almost a 5 win player. Per 36 he averages 18, 9 and 4 on .587 TS%, and he has a defensive rating of 102. So I can see his point.

This is where I'd look up the team DFR in the 27 games McGee played w/ them last year to do a comparison if I had the time or inclination. My gut tells me a guy who plays 18 minutes/game and was on the team for 37% of the season last year probably isn't the catalyst for a dramatic year-over-year team improvement in DFR, but who knows.

But see - it's team defense - it's not individual defense which means it's not 'just' Iguodala who makes them better, he helps, McGee maturing helps, possibly other players have improved as well, maybe Karl is running a different scheme, who knows...

Statman reply to GoSixers on Apr 11 at 12:17

I've watched a lot of Nuggets games this year, and McGee is definitely the 9th man in a 9-man rotation. He makes some spectacular blocks, but he's often terrible at boxing out and almost always makes at least one horrible defensive rotation (or lack thereof) that causes the coach to yank him (hence his low number of minutes). Overall, the team plays better without him than with him (the exception is that he plays Duncan very well, which could be important in the playoffs).

In terms of reasons behind the Nuggets' improvement, most of the knowledgeable Nuggets fans give a lot of credit to Iguodala. By the way, they didn't just add him, they replaced two popular and superior offensive players (Afflalo and Harrington) with him.

You gotta be kidding me. Javale McGee is not the reason the Nuggets defense is better. He makes some flashy defensive plays but he is not, nor he has ever been a good defender.

Look at the stats if you don't believe me:


The Nuggets defense is actually worse with him on the floor.

Iguodala is not the only reason for the improved Nuggets defense, but he is definitely at the top of it. The defensive improvements are a result of:
1) acquisition of Iguodala
2) emergence of Koufos
3) return of Wilson Chandler
4) less minutes for the Lawson/Miller backcourt on behalf of playing Iguodala at the SG spot for the majority of the game

Tray reply to GoSixers on Apr 11 at 12:22

I don't know about this who knows business. When he's off the court, their defensive rating is 107.6, which would be good for 22nd in the league. But when he's on, it's 104.5, good for 11th.

Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Apr 11 at 17:08

You mean Kosta Koufos' backup?

He's a cog on a talented 9-deep team. 7 of the key players are at increasing-production ages 23-26; Iguodala, 29, & Miller, 36, represent the elderly.

Iguodala plays his 4 roles - defense, secondary handling, running, attitude; is still blessed with the same offensive offense that Philadelphians came to know and shield their eyes from.

And Iguodala's not the only addition to the Nuggets in actual practice: McGee playing 75 games this year instead of 20 has had a salutary effect, added depth. Brewer is more comfortable after having arrived from Dallas last season...78 games this year instead of 59; chips in nicely.

I like George Karl's style. Knows the game, let's his players play/get up and down the court; expects, but isn't overbearing.

Question on Nugs: What happens when the games slow down in April, May & June?

Statman reply to Dollar Bill on Apr 11 at 12:22

This is a fair and (surprisingly?) balanced assessment of Iguodala's contributions (or lack thereof) to the Nuggets this year, but there is more to "secondary handling" than meets the eye. Where Iguodala helps the Nuggets' offense the most (and what the Sixers have sorely missed this year) is with his passing, his ability to get his teammates good shots where and when they want them. He's got great chemistry with Brewer, Chandler, and Koufos, for example.

Iguodala has historically shown some nifty passing ability, but his 'pass'-ive aggressiveness is somewhat predictable and, at times, a detriment (where a more facile/proficient scorer might better serve a team). The smart defender plays off of him, tempts him to launch, limits drives and his frequently-resulting, sometimes-capitalizing passes off of them.

Production of the 3 you mentioned has improved. I wonder if they'd each credit Iggy?

Does Gallinari injury doom the Nuggets (as I read on Fox Sports Power Rankings capsule) in your opinion? Sounds like you're closely attuned.

Statman reply to Dollar Bill on Apr 11 at 14:22

So far Gallinari's injury hasn't hurt them (they've won all three games since), because Wilson Chandler has given the same production and more. The Nuggets are also 8-1 without Ty Lawson this year. The test will be, as you noted, whether they can succeed in the slower-paced playoffs, where defenses are more attuned. In the regular season, they won 3 of 4 low-scoring games against Memphis and split with San Antonio, so that gives some indication. But the whole team has very little playoff experience, so there is some chance they will underperform.

This is a pretty text book move for them. Or at least it would've been text book previous to the ownership change. I thought this might be a link to the story about Bynum not showing up for the team picture, which is also pretty typical.

Saw this on the ESPN News 'scrawl' and laughed...didn't they just hand the reins of the team to him less than 12 months ago?

Stan reply to Mike on Apr 11 at 11:34

and the 3 year cycle continues...

If Doug Collins isn't here it will be because he retires. I can't imagine the Sixers front office firing Collins. It would be a massive PR hit for a team both locally and nationally.

They'll be seen as a laughing stock of the NBA. A team that got swindled in a trade for Bynum, gave up a "superstar" in Vucevic, and now fired the only decent HC they've had in the past 10 years.

Yeah, I doubt they fire him. If this is legit, they'll just let him coach as a lame duck if he doesn't retire or share an office with Rod Thorn.

If this isn't legit, I expect an extension to be announced pretty soon.

You're using the term decent pretty loosely. Considering that Collins will have done what he always does - burns out in the third year, just took a little longer (though still not 3 full 82 game seasons thanks to the lock out :)

I'm starting to think new owners are bigger idiots than Snyder was

Stan reply to GoSixers on Apr 11 at 12:01

He's regarded as a "decent" HC among most NBA fans. Personally, I don't care for him. I think the Sixers can do much better but part of me would rather keep him than risk seeing the team bring in another Eddie Jordan.

I'm not sure the options are Doug Collins or Eddie Jordan there's a wide array and spectrum of possible coaching candidates out there especially if you are thoughtful about it as an organization as opposed to just bringing in a has been retread (especially one 20 years out of the game). Most NBA fans also think scoring a lot of points regardless of how many shots it takes means a player had a good game.

Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Apr 11 at 17:03

Will you stop with the 20 years out of the game crap? He coached Washington from 2000-2002, that's 8 years before he was hired here (2010). During that time and before that he was a broadcaster, a highly informed one. He knows everybody in the league. He's deeply involved in the game. If you think he's a lousy coach, fine, but come up with some believable reasons. There are not a lot of people in the league who agree with you, that's for sure.

And don't tell me that being a broadcaster is "out of the game." It's not selling insurance.

Tray reply to Charlie H on Apr 11 at 17:16

I think broadcasting is being out of the game, or can be at least. What does, say, Joe Morgan really know about baseball as it's played today? Collins wasn't Joe Morgan as a broadcaster, but he wasn't Jeff Van Gundy either, and he does coach a style of offense that was way more popular 10 years ago. So I can see saying he was out of the game for 8 years.

buke reply to Charlie H on Apr 11 at 17:54

I agree that he has been involved with the game as a broadcaster and a network broadcaster with a coaching and playing background has the opportunities to see many different teams and observe what is working and what is not. Whether those observations influence their own preferences in the end is another matter, though. Some people are very hard wired in their preferences.

As far as people around the league agreeing with us about the quality of Collins as a coach, well, you do have to concede that regardless of their expertise, they haven't had to suffer through as many Sixers games as we have. I wonder if they would have the same high esteem for Collins if they actually watched 40 or more Sixers games this year.

In theory I'm sure a lot of people think Doug Collins is a 'great' coach - and yet if the rumors are to be believed here's another job he leaves before coaching 3 full seasons at 82 games a season.

and the alleged smear campaign continues - this must not be from Thorn though or else Woj would've had it first no?

Yesterday Vuce became the youngest player since 1985 to put up a 30/20/5/2 blocks game. Only other players to do this are Barkley, Bird, Brand, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Jermaine O'Neal, Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, Sampson, Webber, and of course, the underrated Joe Barry Carroll. Vuce had 21/20/6/2 the game before; since 1985, Duncan, Barkley and Malone are the only other players with a 2-game 20/20/5 streak. And Duncan's the only one besides Vucevic with a 20/20/5/2 blocks streak.

Charlie H reply to Tray on Apr 11 at 17:05

I feel sick. Vucevic for Bynum even up doesn't look very good right now.

Tray reply to Charlie H on Apr 11 at 18:39

What these numbers mean is an interesting question. Because I still think he's just a lousy defensive center, a very inefficient if somewhat skilled scorer for his position, an above-average passer for the position and a really great rebounder. I'm not sure that that even adds up to a player who you really want to start if you have a choice; it certainly doesn't add up to a star or anything remotely of the kind. Yet he does seem to have this ability to dominate a game every so often, and at a very young age.

Charlie H reply to Tray on Apr 12 at 18:28

Don't you want a really great rebounder starting for your team? I do.

Tray reply to Charlie H on Apr 12 at 18:46

Probably not, if he's both a poor defender and inefficient scorer.

Reggie Evans is reportedly a great rebounder - would you like him starting for your NBA team?

Tom Moore on Apr 11 at 16:52

Nice to see you at the game in Brooklyn Tuesday night, Brian.

Yeah, great to see you too. Wish the game was more entertaining, but always nice to catch up a little bit.

Tom Moore on Apr 11 at 16:53

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