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Two Hot Teams Meet in Detroit

Doug Collins quit today

Is this something newer than the reports from last night? Meaning he isn't finishing the season or something?

Don't think so - just kind of assumed you'd have a new thread up celebrating his firing so I didn't even think to look at the other thread :)

no comment on the Collins news?

Not really. I mean, I think he did more good than harm. I'm not exactly sad to see him go. Personally, I think he's the type of coach a guy should have early in his career to learn certain things. Probably not the best type of coach to have when a guy is ready to spread his wings. Either way, don't think it matters a whole lot. I'll worry about the head coach when I see some positive personnel moves.

Mike reply to Brian on Apr 15 at 13:27

fair enough. i'm probably more interested in the GM issue myself. i didn't realize Dileo was only on a 1-year contract. really hope Collins isn't offered a front office role. maybe without his voice they'll be able to bring in a real candidate who actually embraces the way the NBA works in 2013. that's the only real shot they have of any future success imo.

Dileo embraces the way the NBA works in 2013 fine

Mike reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 13:49

well Collins certainly doesn't. i have no idea how Dileo thinks because i don't know how much power he has ever had (and i don't think anyone can honestly say they know this)

People will argue you hasn't done a good job at it but it's pretty well known that at least before collins got here he was the 'draft guy' - he's the guy who didn't want larry hughes for instance

Whoever the architect behind the Bynum deal was gets it, IMO. You give up whatever you have to for elite talent. Vucevic, Harkless, even Iguodala...give up a dozen of them for a game-changer. Everyone on the roster falls into this bucket, by the way.

Who do you think is the architect behind the Bynum deal?

I honestly don't know, honestly. Thorn? The way Collins has lamented it publicly, I sort of think he may not have approved the package. Maybe it was DiLeo.


Mike reply to Brian on Apr 15 at 13:52

but there was also that story about him having lunch or dinner with Doc Rivers, when Doc told him the only big man he's afraid of is Bynum. and Collins was giddy or something because he knew the deal was about to go down and he couldn't say anything about it. i think Collins definitely approved of the trade, but now that it's gone bad he wants to distance itself from it, like pretty much everyone else is doing.

Just because he knew that the trade was getting done doesn't mean he had any say :)

I've been listening to 97.5 this morning between work emergencies to get the 'pulse' of the fans (some guy feels that everyone on the roster is losers and he doesn't want losers on the roster) - and just heard that the original sixers rat will be on with misanelli this afternoon - i love hearing larry browns ego talk - it's funny

Mike reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 13:58

true, i mean i really have no idea. i just remember him being really excited in just about every interview before the season began, and even after that, when they still thought Bynum was going to play.

I remember something from way back in the summer where he was talking about how much they gave away to get him. Think he loved getting Richardson in the deal, that might've mollified him, somewhat. What a fucking waste of a season. And I'm going to be rooting for the god damned celitcs in the first round because this season hasn't left me feeling dirty enough.

That's not funny.

Then root for the Knicks?

Melo's continued first-round futility is more important to me than a meaningless second-round appearance for the Celts.

Tray reply to Brian on Apr 15 at 18:06

I've enjoyed Melo's play this year. Never liked watching him play much before. I'd be happy to see him play LeBron in the conference finals.

MikeW reply to Brian on Apr 17 at 9:54

100% agree. "go" celts...

MikeW reply to MikeW on Apr 17 at 9:55

Meant 100% agree with Brian's assessment of Knicks v. Celts.

All these Collins headlines have underscored the difference between resign and re-sign.

So Larry Brown's premise is that you need a 'vet' who knows how to be a pro to teach guys how to be pro's - and listen to the coach - so really - it's the lack of that 'veteran locker room' thing.

He also raised the ghost of Iguodala saying that Iguodala had a bad influence (Iverson) when he got here

buke reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 15:23

Well, this season has made me appreciate the veteran leadership provided by Iguodala and Brand. Maybe even Lou Williams a bit.

Right now this team is a headless horseman with few mature, steady influences. Although only about 24, Thad has some veteran status but he's never showed much in the way of leadership. Holiday, Turner, and Hawes all seem like immature knuckleheads to one degree or another. Wilkins is a veteran presence but he doesn't have the status to have much influence.

Everything points to a long, slow slog back to respectability, but I guess one never knows for sure. They could get lucky.

depends on your definition of respectability. Going from 34-35 wins to a low playoff seed isn't particularly difficult.

Derek wrote an interesting piece over at LB regarding if this 'truly' means rebuilding, and you can't rebuild without the approval of ownership, not really.

How low is the sixers 'q' rating in Philadelphia

The masters and tiger are a bigger story on this show (now that the brown interview is over I'm turning it off)

DiLeo has been with this orginization for like 20 years or more? We have no clue how much input he has had over the years and what he is specifically responsible for either way. I see no reason to give him credit for everything that went right in recent years or wrong. All I know is that the Sixers have 2 division titles in the last 22 years. Does there come a point where you clean house ever? Just asking. I am not saying fire him I'm asking is should there be jobs for life?

As he was only coach for part of a season and never the GM in charge - I'm not sure how you could lay the 22 years of futility at his feet - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - each employee should be evaluated on their own merits.

My only hope is the next coach isn't a megalomaniac

At first I thought collins seemed like a great coach. He certainly has a lot of basketball knowledge as well as some unique motivational abilities. The skills were on display more in the past 2 seasons.

Overall, though, I'm now beleiving he was much better as a player and a commentator. I just don't see him making great choices with the players. I do believe he held back Vucevic, Speights, Turner, Thad, etc.

Vucevic showed how good he was in limited action and then he would get rewarded by having to sit on the bench the next game. Speights didn't show much but clearly didn't get much confidence in him. Reasosn why other teams traded for them and tried to show confidence, because players are more likely to thrive when you beleive in them and let them do what their thing.

Turner was eventually given minutes but has recently stated that he is playing the way he is "allowed" as a "role player". He still believes his career could have been different in a different role and I agree.

Thad fortunately had a good enough relation to collins to be able to ask to go into the starting lineup and he played even better at first. I still beleive thad had huge potential based on his first season, but players dont do everthing on their own. Team chemistry and coaching are a big part of making players thrive (unless you are coaching much superior talent such as shaq with kobe).

He also makes in game mistakes in my opinion. He knows more than i,do, but sometimes his expertise have led to very questionable choices.

I was thrilled to have him here, and I beleive he deserves a great place in sixers history. He should be praised for all he did well, but as a coach I think he has some pros and cons.

In my opinion, i would have liked to see what he could do with Bynum, but at this point I wouldn' mind turning a fresh page like the Eagles are doing. I hope they take a risk on an up and coming talent too, not some guy whose been around the league too long.

I was thrilled to have him here, and I beleive he deserves a great place in sixers history.

Well - he was better than Mo Cheeks, Eddie Jordan and Doug Moe

He's not better than Billy C or Larry Brown (and I hated brown)

What's sad is that the sixers don't exactly have a plethora of great coaches in their pantheon (cue some old nut job telling us about coaches who were dead when our parents were children)

Tray reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 18:41

I think the great place in Sixers history he's referring to is his career as a player.

Greg reply to Tray on Apr 15 at 18:43


Greg reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 18:41

His great place in sixers history also has to do with his time as a player.

Well, there are a lot more great sixer players ahead of collins than great sixers coaches

Does Mo Cheeks get bonus points cause he was both?

Greg reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 19:44

Well Cheeks number has been retired by the organization so i'd say he does have a pretty high place. All i said was collins has a great place in Sixers history. I wouldn't give him coaching points in evaluating his career as a player but I do think this adds to his place in sixers history.

In evaluating him as a whole you could even look at his career as commentator and Olympian. That's not sixers history, but that doesn't make him less accomplished. Wilt spent most of his career with the Lakers and warriors but I don't deduct half of his accomplishments when evaluating his. Collins spent his entire career as a Sixer. His time with the Sixers as a coach definately adds to his sixers resume but I don't believe it gives him extra points as a player.

Charlie H reply to GoSixers on Apr 16 at 0:16

There are 2 coaches of this franchise besides Brown who are in the HoF, as coaches, but I guess that doesn't count because your parents weren't born.

Some ESPN folk still seem to think Jrue should be in the MIP Conversation


Obviously some ESPN folk are young nut jobs.

And just as obvious, those people must not watch many Sixers games, at least not since the all star bank.

Tray reply to buke on Apr 15 at 20:21

A decent argument can be made that Jrue went from being an utterly average passer to a good or very good one this season.

Obviously some ESPN folk are young nut jobs.

Purely hypothetical to have something else to talk about

IF the lakers amnesty kobe bryant (80 million dollars is kobe's cost next season approximately to the lakers) should the sixers put in, say, a 3-5 million dollar claim on him?

Kobe probably will play next year - probably won't be great - probably will never be what he is again - but if he was coming back - that might draw fans - even if just to boo him?

I mean - they paid bynum not to play this year

Tray reply to GoSixers on Apr 15 at 20:14

I believe that a team should at all times try to contend, build towards contention, or rebuild/tank. A one-year deal with Kobe serves none of these purposes and frustrates tanking, if that's the plan next year. A team should never do something solely for the sake of making the playoffs or the second round in a single season. Making the playoffs one year can be a step towards greater postseason success the next, but not if you get there with one-year contracts. So no. But I think there's little to no chance of an amnesty. Kobe plans to be back early next year, and they'd never antagonize the fans like that. Argue if you like but a lot's been written on why they won't amnesty him and I find it all very convincing. See Tom Ziller's piece, and a post on SI's NBA blog, point forward.

Thought that game was kind of an eff you to the fans by Collins, or the few fans who remain. He waits until the 80th game, then decides to tank. Whatever. No potg.

Sharone Wright on Apr 16 at 7:43

I saw the Cooney article with Mike Brown as a potential coaching candidate, and I threw up in my mouth a little. He'll be as bad as Eddie Jordan if, God forbid, he is hired.

i'm not sure what's been worse this year, the local coverage of the team or the actual performance of the team

Sharone Wright reply to Mike on Apr 16 at 8:20

Well, I just hope that he got the Mike Brown name from speculation and not an actual source.

Brown's another legit defensive and sorry offensive coach. I don't think we'd be worse off under him than Doug.

this is 1 guy i've seen rumored to potentially come here this summer if he opts out:


Lanky, quixotic, quick-to-be-querulous, tirelessly qualifying, quantum quipster Doug Collins, this town's favorite country bball doc, has jiggled his satchel empty of all tricks, knows that his patients and their relations are suffering immoderately and that his treatments, prescriptions and quarantining have failed the community by and large, his amiable and optimistic bedside manner notwithstanding (and indelible).

In a region beset, besieged and bewildered with the Scant Talent epidemic, the shingle that once promised health to passersby dangles dolefully; will be removed Thursday according to town gossip, Mayor Chatsworth Storm.

In small part due to Collins' recent quirky roster addition of 'Needle' Holiday (who could use a summer at Paula Deen's table) and Collins' uncharacteristic buttoned lips (since controversy of his status surfaced), but mostly due to the drip of an inartistic, agonizing, quicksand season, the notion of quackery has been whispered on Main Street; quite the quandary for ownership.

The quest for winning answers is flush with questions, but there are no qualms from this quarter in the queuing of a fresh batch of coaching candidates in a search for Coach Quintessential as the '12-'13 season quails to a close.

Last season's exciting playoff run just went to prove the adage, every doc has his day.

Effort was never an issue. Happy sunset, Doug.

Zach Lowe has Jrue tied for 3rd with Hickson in Most Improved, behind Vasquez (2) and Larry Sanders (1).

A reasonable ranking in early February, discardable in April.

last yr .092 WS/48 ..... this yr .054 WS/48

Higher profile, yes. More dribbles per 48, yes.

Dubious all-star selection (through Doug & Co.'s pushing) and then he turned to soup.

I'm stunned you feel that was a reasonable ranking ever.

thank you, kind slur.

don't kill me, am just the messenger!

tell all about jrue's improvement in last 81.

This isn't about me. It's amazing that at any point in the season, you felt Jrue was worthy to be in Top 3 of any award. That's all.

It IS about you insofar as your words represent you - own 'em. You want to comment personally, rather than about the player/subject of discussion, expect a return on content.

"Stunned" and "amazed" at my position regarding Jrue?... doubt it. Check that, I don't believe it. No offense.

Just heard on 97.5 FM: Collins' newly acquired 76ers role, after he sheds his current role: "Special Consultant" - - damn, wanted him out on the first Grandpappy's Express train to Peoria! His use of first person plural pronouns in post-game talk last night gave me pause, augured this dumb development.

The reaction to you offering anything remotely positive (even a backhanded compliment) about Jrue Holiday sort of goes past my personal opinion. It's an opinion based on you offering very little that isn't overwhelmingly negative about him. Did I miss something between the spoiled claims, daily win share updates, and all of the wordplay?

Honestly, I agree with you. Most Improved Player is such a dumb award but Jrue was probably near the top around midseason, and now can't be considered with a pretty brutal second half.

Tray reply to Rich on Apr 16 at 18:27

I wouldn't concede that so quickly. Jrue is a point guard who went from averaging an extremely underwhelming 4.8 assists per 36 minutes to 7.7 this year. He's 9th in the league in assist percentage, on a team with no one to pass to; he was 80th the season before. Last year, he was a worse passer than all sorts of backup points and even a sizable number of off guards. Now he's borderline-elite. (To be fair, you could make the argument that Jrue was playing with a lot of other playmakers before, but I don't think that Jrue does this last year even if we didn't have Iguodala and Lou.) At season's close, it turns out he's just as inefficient a scorer as he ever was, thanks to a huge cold streak that took his numbers back to career norms, but there wasn't a similar post-all-star regression in his passing. If you look at the other MIP candidates, what you're going to find by and large is players who took on expanded roles, not players who actually got a lot better at something, as Holiday did. Paul George, for example, has merely gone from being a guy with solid efficiency and low usage to a low efficiency scorer with medium usage. I'm sure one could talk all day about this or that subtle improvement to his game, but that's what the numbers say. Larry Sanders is actually averaging less blocks per minute this year than he did last year; he just plays twice as much. Again, you can point out that he's cut his fouling down dramatically and gone from being a huge offensive liability to merely being well below average for his position, and that that's helped him stay on the floor and jack up his counting stats, but cutting down your fouls and going from awful on offense to just bad isn't my idea of the MIP. Vasquez is another player who's made slight improvements and gotten way more minutes. I would actually vote for Jrue.

Rich reply to Tray on Apr 16 at 20:05

Very solid points. The way you poked holes in many of the other top candidates proves that it's sort of a bogus award.

I do struggle with evaluating Jrue's passing. I totally agree with everything you said about it, but in the sense of the award, I'm not sure he improved more than he went from a horrible playmaking situation to a good one (at least for himself). To Jrue's credit, he took the added responsibility and did a nice job with it. Personally, it's nice to see his playmaking talent is more in line with what the numbers are.

The scoring efficiency is what kills me. He had it up to a reasonable number for his usage in February and then it pretty much fell off a cliff. If he would have gotten to the line a little more and cut out the long twos, I think he'd be a lock. Then again with Doug out of town, maybe there's hope that he'll have a chance at it again next year because his scoring approach changes. It may be wishful thinking, but I think the right coach can get him to improve in that area as well. Maybe not as drastically as his passing this year, but a decent amount.

I'd probably give it to Sanders, but you're right, there's still a compelling argument for Jrue.

Tray reply to Rich on Apr 16 at 20:42

Well the scoring efficiency is just flat from last year, so if the question is whether he's improved, it's not like there's any regression in that area of his game to count against his improved passing. I also thought that this was a solid, more subjective argument for Jrue:


Rich reply to Tray on Apr 16 at 21:42

Definitely, and Mahoney is a smart guy and a really good writer. He sort of skimmed over the fact why his efficiency is so low, and that's because his shot distribution is still pretty awful. And no, he hasn't regressed efficiency-wise, but he also hasn't improved in area where he frankly left himself a ton of room for improvement. How much do you subtract points for that? Very subjective award.

One other thing that IMO should go against him (but won't, because nobody watches this closely): His defense has gotten worse as the season has progressed IMO. He stopped moving his feet all the time and started getting into bad habits more frequently than he should.

Again though, I can see why people would want to give the award to him. Hope he gets it, too.

Tray reply to Rich on Apr 17 at 0:28

I've started to assume that Jrue's shot distribution is what it is and that he just lacks the explosiveness to get to the rim at a Westbrook-like rate. But I guess there's some room for improvements.

Interesting quotes via Grantland on the Kobe injury including one from a certain amnestied old friend:

"You know you can’t raise it. That’s what’s amazing. [Kobe] knocked down two free throws. He must have shot flat-footed. You cannot rise on your toes after you tear your Achilles. That’s one of the tests, when they touch your calf in the back and there’s no reaction. Usually, your foot would react, but if it just hangs, then they know it’s separated or torn..."


^ wonder what Ryan Howard would say about Kobe and how fast he should rehab?

So Marcus Smart, a top 3 pick in most mocks, is apparently returning to school. Seems like a pretty bad decision, but I like it for us because it increases the chances that Zeller and maybe even Plumlee will be gone when we draft.

Whoever advised him should get fired. His stock is almost certain to drop next season, with the incredibly strong high school class coming in. He may not even be a top 10 pick next year.

And i disagree that this is good for the Sixers. A weak draft just got weaker. Less chance that Len falls to us now...

Or his stock is almost certain to drop because, well, that's what happens when a guy goes back to school - his stock drops

Tray reply to Xsago on Apr 17 at 10:24

I just figure that we usually take a guy who's projected to go lower than our spot anyway, and the chance rises a bit thanks to this that the guys who are projected around our spot and who we wouldn't want will be gone. But it does hurt our chances at Len. That said, a lot of the teams that draft in our area probably won't be interested. Portland should probably be looking for scoring more than another center to play with Leonard, Pekovic wants to resign in Minnesota, Detroit's got Drummond, Oklahoma City has Toronto's pick and, not having any real positional need will probably just take the best athlete or someone who can help shore up their bench scoring long-term, so the next team that would be interested is Washington at 7 - which seems high for Len, but in any event, if they want to take him that high we were never going to get him anyway.

but I like it for us because it increases the chances that Zeller and maybe even Plumlee will be gone when we draft.

Following this logic, are you rooting for a win tonight, to hopefully move back 2 spaces in the draft and give 2 more teams a chance to draft Zeller/Plumlee?

Tray reply to Brian on Apr 17 at 16:51

No not really; unlike you I don't give us much of a chance of drafting either. Maybe I should change my mind about Smart helping us.

I disagree that the Sixers always take players ranked lower. Harkless and Vucevic may have been such examples, but there are plenty who have gone the opposite way like Jrue and Moultrie for example. Iguodala was ranked higher as well if i remember correctly.

That being said i agree that some of the teams ahead of the Sixers don't really need a player like Len. But they can all draft best player available can't they? Also i think Washington and OKC are huge threats to take Len. Both have long term needs at C and can afford to take a raw high-upside guy like him. That's why we desperately need Toronto to pass the Sixers in the standings.

Tray reply to Xsago on Apr 17 at 15:19

I think Washington's a really big threat, and I kind of buy Chad Ford's notion that OKC's likely to pick Carter-Williams as a kind of Harden replacement. I think Washington will probably take Len and we'll maybe get Gobert, or Austin, or surprise people and take Gary Harris early, or pick some athlete currently projected to get taken outside of the lottery who wows in workouts.

Well, if the better prospects are truly gone by the time the Sixers pick i wouldn't be mad with an attempt to make something of Gobert/Austin/Harris. I'm fine with high risk/reward picks. The guy i absolutely hate is Plumlee.

Highly energetic blog, I liked that a lot. Will there be a part 2?

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