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Adios, Spence!

Earl Clark is heading to the Sixers in the deal. He was a first round pick, right? So Hinkie will say "We got a first rounder, and two second rounders for Spence. I WIN!"

clark alone isnt enough

think sims is the other guy they are getting

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buke reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 11:55
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Yes, I think Clark was a first round pick. I always thought he had some potential. Sixers also got Henry Sims in the deal according to reports. Sims was undrafted out of Georgetown (although he was expected to be drafted) but he has good size and supposedly is a pretty good passing center.

This one was a reasonably fair result. Now, Turner just needs to be traded for the Bobcats expiring contract and an underutilized player. If they don't get another pick, so be it. They already have enough of them.

If they end up getting Orlando's 2nd round pick, I think I would consider this as a great trade. It would pretty much be getting an expiring contract and a bottom 1st round pick for Hawes.

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The Six reply to Stan on Feb 20 at 11:36
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Bottom line is Hinkie has lots of picks and lots of cap space to make more moves today. Good trade.

Great? Come on. Hawes was an expiring contract, how is getting an expiring contract back for him an improvement.

It's a nothing move, as far as I'm concerned. Though I guess it's good this team isn't just throwing away 2nd rounders like they did in the past.

C'mon, Brian. You don't have to watch Spencer anymore. I thought you'd be thrilled.

Let's see what seconds they got. That Orlando pick could be a decent haul.

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 12:38
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A nothing move? What more did you expect to get for Hawes? Earlier this year the Bulls traded Loul Deng, a top 7 SF, and all they got in return was a lottery protected first round pick from Sacremento and the option to swap lottery protected first round picks with Cleveland. Teams aren't giving up first round picks and expiring contracts don't really have as much value like they did 5 years ago.

Getting a top 3 pick in the 2nd round while not having to take back additional salary is a pretty good return for a guy that wasn't going to be brought back and is nothing more than just a quality backup.

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GoSixers reply to Stan on Feb 20 at 13:18
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He's still bitter that the sixers record isn't the absolute worst in the league, and still thinks expiring contracts have the value they used to it seems...Brian knows that there were better offers for Hawes previously and Sam Hinkie over played his hand...

And I'm pretty sure in the last year or two he would have said 'high seconds are better than low firsts' due to the lack of a guaranteed contract - but it contrasts his sixers misanthropy so now it's not a big deal

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Feb 20 at 13:20
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Yeah, I think Orlando's second-rounder is a nice asset.

High seconds are still more valuable than low firsts...more valuable than not all that valuable still isn't great. I'm glad Hawes is gone. This deal doesn't seem so earth-shattering that he couldn't have pulled it a couple of months ago and saved a few wins, though. Maybe he was able to squeeze that second pick out of Cleveland by playing hardball. What a stud Hinkie is!

Not sure what your comment about expiring contracts means, you obviously didn't understand what I said above.

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GrangerBeast reply to Stan on Feb 21 at 14:37
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A quality backup? Out west he'd be a 20ppg scorer at the 5. How is that "nothing more than a quality backup"?

It wasn't the right fit, simple as that.

If it is indeed ORL and MEM 2nd round picks this is not a bad deal at all.

ORL pick is a top 3 2nd rounder which is essentially the same as a late first rounder.

And Clark can actually play a little bit in an up tempo system, who knows, he might turn into an asset.

The Sixers also get 1.5 million more in cap space. Sign of a future trade?

Another thing of note, non-guaranteed contracts can be valuable around the draft. Clark has a non guaranteed contract.

non-guaranteed deals are only valuable if you don't have cap space to include in deals. The Sixers can just take back money into their space, so that advantage is pretty pointless.

1. There's a limit to the cap space
2. I said around the draft, not the offseason. Who says the Sixers will have cap space than? I can almost bet that they will use some of it in the meantime...

$12.5M of it in the next 3 hours or leading up to the draft? I find that highly unlikely. We'll see.

I have a feeling Turner and a couple second rounders for Asik is coming.

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Anonymous reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:20
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The Sixers have been Asik’s most likely destination for months, according to Bill Ingram of Basketball Insiders, who notes Philadelphia GM Sam Hinkie’s connection to the big man. Hinkie was with the Rockets when they signed Asik last year (Twitter links).

Baseless dot connecting speculation...but hey - you hate Hinkie so keep going

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The Sox reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 12:11
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For the life of me I can't figure out how Asik fits in this team's plans. There has to be another team involved and the sixers are just facilitators.

He really doesn't, unless the Sixers are getting multiple picks to take him or, as you said, they're facilitating a deal between Houston and someone else. If the latter is the case, they better be getting picks as compensation.

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The Six reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 12:15
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agreed....

did the Laker deal last night get them any closer to being under the cap? Could something like Asik and Nash plus whatever assorted garbage here, Thad to HOU and ET to LA work?

Why would we want to do that?

Pistons shopping Josh Smith. Think he'd actually appeal to Hinkie, believe it or not.

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 12:35
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Do you think it's possible under the CBA to rewrite a player's contract, such that he loses salary for each jump shot he takes, or maybe for each jump shot above a certain quantity threshold, or maybe if he hits certain benchmarks in total jump shots? I would trade for Smith if we could do that.

Turner launch countdown: T minus 2 hours, 23 minutes; all systems are 'go'

gary neal to the bobcats

@WojYahooNBA In 3-team deal, Washington will send Eric Maynor and two 2nd-round picks to the Sixers to complete Andre Miller trade, source tells Yahoo

@WojYahooNBA Washington will get Andre Miller, Denver gets Vesley and Philadelphia gets Maynor and two second-round pick

Luke Ridnour and Gary Neal to Charlotte for Ramon Sessions and Jeff Adrien

maynor has 2.1 million player option for next year

@daldridgetnt Wizards will give Philly a second-round pick next year. Denver will give Philly the other second-rounder in 2016, per source.

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The Six reply to sixerfan1220 on Feb 20 at 12:52
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What did the Sixers give up?

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Stan reply to The Six on Feb 20 at 12:53
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Nothing. They have to take back Maynor's 2 year/$4 million salary.

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Matt68 reply to Stan on Feb 20 at 12:55
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I thought there was a rule something had to be outgoing - hence Sac's protected 2nd round pick in the Roger Mason deal.

not if you are under the cap i think

They are sending a trade exception. TEs count as far as i know.

So the price of Hawes is equal to the price of nothing, basically? What is Turner worth, then?

Not really. In the first deal, they gave away Hawes and got two 2nd rounders + expiring contracts. In the second deal they basically gave $2.1M and 2nd rounders. So Hawes' value = about $2.1M.

4 second rounders!!! Sweet.

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:15
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We'll use them all on point guards and trade our newly acquired assets to Minnesota for Kevin Love. Oh wait, Kahn doesn't work for them anymore.

Hinkie is furiously working the phones "I'll give you 6 second rounders for a lottery pick. Do we have a deal?"

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:24
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He's probably reading to Joe Dumars about the hidden value of second-rounders from his spreadsheet. "Joe, did you know that the expected value of a pick in the low thirties is equivalent to the cosine of .432 picks in the 14-17 range?" And Joe's like, "no sonny, didn't know that. I'll have to pass that one along to my numbers boy. (hangs up phone.)"

It's going to be so sweet when we wind up with the fifth pick so Hinkie could squeeze an extra second rounder out of cleveland. Totally worth it. Dorky high fives all around the front office today.

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:36
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That's not happening. We're going to finish bottom two, bottom three worst case.

It can still happen if we finish bottom three or bottom two.

Randle, Rodney Hood and five guys no one has ever heard of in the second round. Come Build With Us!

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:39
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Maybe you should go calculate how many games we won due to Hawes having a good or above-average game. Don't forget that he's the worst defensive center ever, though.

He's not as bad as Turner, pound-for-pound.

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GrangerBeast reply to Tray on Feb 21 at 14:45
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Never heard of Shawn Bradley? How quickly they forget...

Iman Shumpert, Dion Waiters, Landry Fields...can anyone else think of another terrible perimeter player more in demand than Evan Turner?

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:37
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Jarrett Jack?

If we're including PGs, you have to throw in Ridnour, Gary Neal, Andre Miller, Sessions...

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 13:41
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Neal and Sessions went for each other, do they count? I think we could have sold Turner for Sessions. What about Thornton? I think Houston was begging for Dunleavy but Chicago wouldn't deal.

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GrangerBeast reply to Tray on Feb 22 at 2:32
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You mean the same Gary Neal who put up clutch performances in the playoffs multiple years?

All he is, is old. He was a 24 year old rookie, and he's got a lot of mileage. He's far from bad though.

jordan hamilton for aaron brooks according to woj

I'm waiting for splitter to say we traded Hawes to placate franchise cornerstone Turner over the toilet paper.

Any chance that part of the reason Hinkie is stockpiling 2nd rd picks is because the first rd picks that we own Miami, Orlando (I think the Celtics are owed one of those now) will most likely default to multiple second rd picks?

Either way, he's over-valuing second round picks imo. Teams can survive w/out having a 2nd rounder. Though it is easier to find non-NBA talent in the second round (as opposed to getting non-NBA talent w/ the #2 overall pick).

3rd time in 35 years Sixers have traded mid-season for a PG with the frontname of Eric. Wanna bet money? I wouldn't snow ya!

I wonder if Maynor is in Parris Island physical condition, like Brown likes his no-defense tankers.

Hmm...good connection. Maybe the new Brown should name the new Eric captain like the old Brown did for the old Eric. I'd say if you haven't played for this team, you are more deserving of the title.

Aye, aye, Cap'n! Worth a try. Any port in a 15-40 storm. (The old Shue contained new Money, way back when.)

9 minutes. Trigger, Sam, trigger!!!

Whoa, whoa, whoa...Lakers and Sixers in talks about Chris Kaman!!!!

Yes! Go, go, go!!!

Trades can still be announced after the deadline, as long as teams are on a call with the league.

That retains hope.

Outgoing: 1 semi-stiff

Incoming: 3 stiffs and the right to draft 4 more stiffs!

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 15:21
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Yikes. It's kind of weird seeing you slowly turn into Dollar Bill.

Someday you'll be older and wiser, Stan. Just you wait. Meanwhile, buck up.

Yeah I think I'm at a stage in my life where I'm too old for Libertyballers, too young for Depressedfan, and too upper class for WIP.

I read writers, not websites.

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GrangerBeast reply to Derek Bodner on Feb 21 at 14:51
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I don't think there's a single legitimate sportswriter these days so I don't know what you're talking about.

Lemme guess... you're in your forties and you're a Deerfield Academy alum... tweed sportcoat, patches on elbows, a favorite stuffed chair, a pipe, classical music, a crackling fire, a Golden Retriever, and a portrait of Larry O'Brien on the knotty pine wall. Real name: Thurston Howell IV. Pet name: Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Nah, that's not you.

I get a headache trying to sort through Libertyballers too. 5:1 ratio of posture to pith.

What, you don't delight in the "delicacies" of Angelo, Al & Rhea, including the wonders of the Wing Bowl? Neither do I. I'd rather listen to the snow.

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GrangerBeast reply to Dollar Bill on Feb 21 at 14:53
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Neither of you sound too good for WIP or Libertyballers, and I find it hilarious that you think that the majority of WIP faithful aren't upper class or upper middle class.

Personally I can't stand any of them. The basketball media of this area is atrocious and embarrassing.

It wasn't all that slow - and it's very very sad - and disheratening

The only thing that's changed is the fact that you seem to think we're on different sides of the fence now. My stance hasn't changed much. I see any pick outside of like the very top of the lottery as window dressing, to varying degrees, when you're tanking to "build a champion." Minor moves don't excite me. Stockpiling worthless draft picks doesn't excite me. Had he made these moves earlier to compete for the worst record I would've liked them a lot more, but we got worse today, so that's good. Doesn't seem like any of the other tanking teams really moved any integral parts of their teams, so maybe we're a lock at #2 and have an outside shot at #1. I'm happy about that. But the picks, yeah, they're meaningless to me.

Liked the picks a lot more when one of them could have been Orlando's. I'm with you that we didn't net much in terms of actual assets. There seemed to be very little actual interest in trading a worthwhile pick around the league, though, so I'm not sure there was much opportunity.

The best criticism I've heard compares the return for Turner and Hawes to the returns for Scola and Gortat. I think our guys fall somewhere in between the two in terms of talent and value, but Phoenix got 1st rounders for both, and we all got were a bunch of second rounders.

Hinkie seems to have messed up by not evaluating the market correctly and trading Hawes and Turner earlier when teams like the Pacers and Wizards still had their 1st round picks.

were either of those guys on walk year contracts though?

both those trades happened before the season started

Does that change anything? I guess their values were lower before the season than during the first few weeks when they were both playing over their heads. That could be true.

Prior to the season i'd say Hawes was worth less than Scola without looking at contract length.

It's just really hard to say without knowing what deals were available in December.

Haven't been able to post my thoughts since yesterday. I was a believer in holding onto hawes and turner into the deadline because it could give us better value. I don't think that happened, but I won't call it a total failure.

I respect if you think we should have dealt them in December. We don't know what we could have got for them then but I think it's safe to say it wouldn't be much less than what we did get. I valued the optionality over the extra Ping pong balls but again, I get the other side.

I think Hinkie gets a C I'm execution. I don't think there was anything better available but I also won't give him credit where not much is do. I like the second rounders, I was really pumped when I thought we got Orlando's, but again, won't over credit. We have free options now which are like lotto tickets.

I DO give Hinkie an A for effort. Maybe I am day a sad state of fandom, but I respect that we have a clear view on vision. The path is clear and we are aggressive with it, I will take that. Holding onto turner was a risk to our win column. Cutting him was a pr disaster, Indiana was the fallback plan. That is the way I see it.

I heard from an owner that the market was limited and no one wanted to give up a first for anyone ( I read that as Thad). Effort doesn't win but I'll take it. Execution will be key going forward.

I must say I really liked heari Hinkies interview. I thought he might be purely a stats introvert but he has some charisma. I'd recommend watching the 3 minutes on the sixers page for those who haven't. I like the tone and reality that he seems to have,

Well, the only one I ever considered trading in December for essentially nothing was Turner, and that was because I didn't think holding onto him would appreciably increase his value. I was okay with holding onto Hawes and definitely okay with holding onto Thad.

Also, I'm a Sam Hinkie supporter, and being disappointed with the return of Turner/Hawes is just a single event. I'm far from anti-Sam.

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Rusty reply to Derek Bodner on Feb 22 at 8:43
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I unintentionally made that a reply to your comment, it was more of my broader thoughts. From reading your thoughts, I think we have broadly the same views.

I would say most people here are on board with the plan, which leaves us to argue a bit about execution. But like you said, a single event shouldn't have a massive effect on the broader views.

Less than 3 months until lotto day (the second of the big three days: trade deadline, lotto day, draft) . Unfortunately Hinkie will have no control of the outcome on that day.

Then I am curious to hear the debate of who we target, where I stand is one of : Wiggins and Parker and then find a way to trade up with Thad and Pelicans pick for whichever of Randle or Vonleh falls past the 5th pick.

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buke reply to raro on Feb 21 at 13:17
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You're probably right. A poster from another page likened Bird to someone who cruises into a popular pick-up site right before closing time and those who remain are pretty desperate to close a deal.

Hinkie had to make these trades but, hopefully, he will now worry a bit more about being "too clever by half." The winners here are the Pacers and the three traded players. The biggest loser is Thad. As for the Sixers, well, they're just running in place.

Bird used to cruise into the Cherry Street Tavern, corner of 22nd, with some of his 80s Celtics buds when they were in town to play Sixers.

As you might expect, the bar has tradition, no frills, strong fundamentals, good rotation on roast beef and pork sandwiches and high-intensity taps. Loose change on floor didn't stand a chance.

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raro reply to buke on Feb 21 at 14:24
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I would add Granger to that list. Talk about trading places!

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buke reply to raro on Feb 21 at 15:41
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Ah, yes, you are quite right! Undoubtedly Granger has the saddest outcome of all.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 21 at 15:02
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How is Thad a loser here? The teams he would've been traded to would've benched him. Most teams in the league don't have a place for him. He can slide over and play the 3 now if need be.

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GrangerBeast reply to raro on Feb 21 at 14:59
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You can't be serious. Hawes and Turner aren't better talents than Scola and Gortat? My god that's ridiculous. Current Hawes and vintage Scola might be a wash but Turner is one hell of a lot better than both Gortat and Scola.

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GrangerBeast reply to Brian on Feb 21 at 15:24
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I agree they didn't get a ton for Hawes and especially Turner (who seriously lowered his value since December) but it's about what they sent out, not what they got back. They just opened up minutes for Moultrie and the young perimeter players and handed the reins of the team over to MCW.

I predict they're going to win more games than you would like, but developing the talent we already have is a big part of building a future.

Awww, flowers to you. You sound like the sad clowns (that creep you out). [Talk about original thinking - - ha ha ha ha!]

Overall this deadline sure disappointed. Turner truly has no value.

@BA_Turner 1m
Clippers traded Byron Mullens to 76ers. Per source

Woo Hoo!

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buke reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 15:52
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Yes, we actually received a center who is softer than Hawes but without the outside shot! And to top it off, he was a former college teammate of Evan Turner!

there has to be more

they have 17 players right now

Houston, we don't have lift-off. Clear skies but astronaut is buggy in capsule; is screaming "jus' gimme the damn the ball!" Mission aborted.

@WojYahooNBA: Indiana has traded Danny Granger to Philadelphia, league source tells Yahoo Sports

@WojYahooNBA: Philadelphia is sending Evan Turner as part of a package to the Pacers for Danny Granger, league source tells Yahoo Sports.

lavoy and turner

I have absolutely no idea what's going on. None of this makes sense...

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Matt68 reply to Xsago on Feb 20 at 15:53
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One of the LB guys says we get a pick. I hope they buy Granger out.

I'm sure they will. there's no point in keeping him.

In the words of the late, great scout Lawrence Welk... "Ah, yes! Wunnerful, wunnerful, wunnerful!!! Thank you, ladies."

Wow! Turner and Lavoy hit the jackpot. They went from the worst team in the league (more or less) to one of the very best. Do you think Thad is saying, "Why couldn't it have been me?"

@ZachLowe_NBA: Philly also got a future Indy 2nd-round pick in the Granger deal, source says.

Heh.

Outgoing: 2 complete stiff, 1 semi-stiff, 1 conditional pick

Incoming: 5 complete stiffs, 1 injured stiff, the right to draft either 4 or 5 complete stiffs.

Awesome.

Was Granger ever an All Star, I bet they market that.

COME BUILD WITH US!!!!!

If they're lucky, they got Indy's #1 pick, which would help us corner the market in the late first/early second rounds, which is where dynasties are built.

indy doesnt have their pick

i dont know which pick they will get

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buke reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 16:01
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"If they're lucky, they got Indy's #1 pick, which would help us corner the market in the late first/early second rounds, which is where dynasties are built."

Could be a Tony Parker! (or maybe just a Sam Dalembert)

Got Indy's 2nd rd pick along with Granger according to Zach Lowe

Another second rounder!!!!

Dork-fives all around!

In all seriousness, as long as they just cut Granger this was a meaningless day now, would've been an awesome day had they pulled these exact same deals back in December. Just bleh at this point. Glad Turner's lazy ass is out of town. Glad Hawes won't be around to steal any games. Glad none of these scrubs they traded for will be around for long (except Maynor, who was a minor move). Whole lot of noise for not much.

the mullens trade makes no sense to me but maybe when the details come out it will

We paid for him, right? Seems like Hinkie must like Mullens.

Good practice player. Skins his knees any time of the day. Toes every line in sprints. Claps his hands on cue.

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Scott from VT on Feb 20 at 16:19
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So did we end up with 3 2nd rounders, Clark, Sims, Granger, Mullens, and the guard from VCU who's name is escaping me for Hawes, Turner, and Lavoy?

Am I missing anything else?


No, it's 5 second rounders.

2 in the hawes deal, 2 in the minor deal, 1 coming/1 going so 0 in the mullens deal, and 1 in the granger deal. 5 total.

maynor is the guard from VCU

5 2nd rounders

- 2 from the hawes deal in the 2014 draft(dont know which ones yet)

- 2 for taking on maynor(the pelicans next year via washington, denver's in 2016)

- 1 from the pacers

the pacers pick is next years 2nd

2015?

yes the sixers have the pacers 2015 2nd round pick

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Stuart reply to sixerfan1220 on Feb 20 at 16:28
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It might effectively be 6 2nd rounders if, as one writer guessed, we gave up a top 55 protected one in exchange for an unprotected one in the Mullens deal.

6 second rounders for 1) money we would've spent anyway and 2) bad players on expiring deals is a pretty good haul IMO

Thought most of you would enjoy this CBS Sports description of the merits of Pacers trade from the perspective of the Pacers (the second sentence almost made me laugh out loud):

"Turner gives the Pacers another offensive weapon behind Lance Stephenson who can play multiple possessions. He can shoot from the outside, has good length to defend, and is a high character guy. Allen gives them another big they can use to foul LeBron James in the inevitable Eastern Conference Finals."

Hilarious.

These moves help the sixers tank. Isn't that what the "pro-tank" contingent was asking for (me included)? I'm thrilled that Hawes and Turner are gone. If Thad wants to stay, I'm happy to keep him. If not we can always trade him later.

I no longer look at this day as disappointing.

It's only disappointing in that I don't see any reason why they couldn't have gotten this return about 5 wins ago.

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The Six reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 16:35
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I agree, but let's be honest, this team stinks on ice. ORL, MIL, and BOS are all clearly better now, and there is plenty of time left to obtain the worst record.

Are you confident MIL will win 5 games the rest of the way?

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The Six reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 18:18
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I am.

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The Six reply to The Six on Feb 20 at 18:19
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At least I am confident that they can. I watch that team on the package and they are playing better.

According to b-r.com, Granger's nickname is "The Gift"

So I guess Mullens steps in as the starter, right?

MCW (if he isn't sick)
Anderson
Hollis
Thad
Mullens

Wroten
Maynor (is he hurt?)
Clark
Moultrie
Dedmon
...

Honestly I cannot believe we didn't get more than essentially a late 2nd round pick for Lavoy and Turner. There are PLENTY of dumb GMs out there who had to value Turner and Lavoy more than that. Steal for Pacers IMO.

I was a proponent of trading Turner for a second round pick prior to last season, if you recall. I didn't realize we'd have to throw Lavoy in AND take back $14M in dead salary. Great #2 pick.

That is amazing. I should write a post exactly what we got for the #2 pick in that magical draft a few years ago.

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MikeW reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 16:42
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Not to mention we apparently turned a "steal" of a draft pick in lavoy allen into....nothing. Ugh. Extremely disheartened by the final move. Liked everything before it. But nothing to write home about.

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buke reply to MikeW on Feb 20 at 16:55
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Well, look, they "had" to trade Turner and Hawes. The front office wanted them gone, most of the fans wanted them gone, even they wanted to be gone. Personally, I don't think they can stink much worse without those two than they've stunk the last few weeks with them. Sometimes you just have to make a change regardless of what it brings. It's not like they would have gotten some compensation for them this summer anyway.

It's not a steal when you consider both of their mentalities imo. Turner's crazy on himself and delusional with regard to his place in NBA. And Lavoy's lazy, and less than serious in approach. Maybe the good coach from Wildwood Catholic (and some tough, focused-on-winning teammates) can wipe the nonsense out of their heads, somehow transmit both-end intensity to the two former Sixers. Based on their pro showings to date, I doubt it. Opportunity is there. Just as it was here.

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Charlie reply to MikeW on Feb 21 at 14:34
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I feel the same way. I don't see how this trade helps them, even if they think Turner is the worst player in the league. He's a restricted free agent, so they have no obligation to sign him. If they like him a little, you'd think they'd want to keep the first refusal rights just in case somebody gives him a reasonable offer. It cost them money right? The excess of Granger's salary against Turner's + Lavoy's is an expense with no return (unless they think getting rid of Turner makes them worse, which is the only rationale I can come up with.) Granger doesn't give them anything, but he costs money. Lavoy for a 2nd round pick. Turner for nothing, which brings me to my real problem with this deal - Hinkie's credibility. He told the world he wanted a #1 pick for Turner, now he settles for... what exactly? Salary relief? No. Improving the team? If so, that's a mistake. Getting Turner out of the locker room? Come on, that's not it. Uh... not having to agonize over the decision to match an offer this summer? What I see is X million dollars paid and no return. So who's going to believe Hinkie anymore? Why not just keep him? They don't have to sign him next year. If he was such a great pick-up for Indiana, couldn't they have gotten, say, a #2 for him without giving up Lavoy?

I'm not being naive here. You can't take a bargaining position and then completely abandon it. If Hinkie had held onto Turner, at least he would have looked like he meant what he said. He obviously was completely bluffing, and for a rookie GM, that can't be good. I don't see this guy lasting very long with tactics like this.

The math: A #2 for Lavoy (in my opinion) + additional millions in salary for a player they don't want + losing right of first refusal for Turner. Seems they'd be better off with no deal - at least there wouldn't be 29 GMs laughing and shaking their heads at Hinkie's amateur negotiating tactics.

We didn't get the Orlando pick in the Cleveland deal. CLE and MEM 2nd rounders.

@JasonLloydABJ #Cavs announce Hawes trade. Sending their own 2nd rounder this year, plus 2nd rounder from Memphis

The Heat got a better return for Beasley than we did for Turner.

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 16:59
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Because Beasley still had value at the time. Beasley was a way better prospect, first of all. People believed he might turn things around. I'm not going to carp too much about whether we get high or low second-rounders for our terrible players. I mean, I agree that this fire sale in no way supports the myth of Hinkie as genius asset manager, but I don't think he did terribly relative to how some other hypothetical GM might have done.

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Tray reply to Tray on Feb 20 at 17:05
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I will say, though, that people who insisted it made sense to wait until the deadline so we could get increased value for Hawes and Turner look really stupid now. No way that deals of this quality weren't there for us before. Hinkie just thought other GMs were a lot dumber than him and would give him first-round picks for his lousy players if he waited long enough. So sure, we damaged our draft positioning, and even though in hindsight it probably won't have made a huge difference, it could have.

They saved Indiana 5 million dollars in the deal. That was probably worth much more than the #57 pick.

So basically they gave away ET for less than nothing. They basically said to the Pacers:

"If we can save you 5 million dollars will you take ET of our hands?"

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Tray reply to tk76 on Feb 20 at 17:37
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God, all these stupid arguments we had about how Hinkie had to "maximize the value of his assets" because "you have to stick to the plan." If anything we just let Turner play his value back down to his career norms.

Hmmmm got a call from my ticket guy today and they are offering tix to THE REST OF THE HOME GAMES THIS SEASON for free if you reup for next season now...that certainly says, um, something

house keeping: according to pelton its the warriors 2nd round pick not the pacers in 2015

not that its a huge difference

What a relief.

1. no more stressing over wins. I can root with a clear concience knowing some vet who is gone in 2 months won't win them games on their good nights.

2. No more watching ET or Hawes in Sixer uniforms. Seems like Hawes has been a Sixer forever.

3. No more empty build up over the trade deadline. They stripped their tea, kept Thad for now, and we can just watch basketball. Ugly basketball, but basketball.

Thad's gone by trade night after the lottery doesn't go some (other) teams way

I don't know, think Hinkie values Thad pretty highly, probably overvalued him. I'd be in favor of moving him, assuming the return isn't just more second rounders.

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Dave P reply to Brian on Feb 20 at 19:53
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Thad's deal next deadline will be more movable with one more year down and the market can only be better. As long as Thad isn't blocking anyone I don't mind keeping him until the right deal is there. Hopefully that's at the draft.

draft night, not trade night - d'oh

the magic are working on a big baby buyout which i think would make them better

hahahahahahahaha simmons:

"Turner offers the following things: creates his own shot, played in big games (college and pro), a little fearless (irrationally so), can play either guard position, provides an extra set of young legs … oh, and remember his 26-point game on Opening Night when Philly shocked the defending champs? I’d rather take my chances with Turner than Granger in Round 3. Plus, they saved some money and added Lavoy Allen, who quietly averaged 20 minutes a game in the 2012 playoffs when Philly almost made the conference finals. You can throw either of those guys into a playoff game without wincing. "

^ this may be the most he's ever written about that 2012 series

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Tray reply to das411 on Feb 20 at 22:36
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Wait what big games did he play in as a pro? Can we admit that those first-round games weren't actually big now? Simmons... the sports acumen of your average hack columnist, but with more dated pop culture analogies and run-on sentences.

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buke reply to Tray on Feb 21 at 0:16
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The author's screed is definitely gushing, but these guys might surprise you. Now two of these guys are part of a very good team where players execute and trust each other to make plays. Indiana is a very different situation from the every-man-for-himself situation that they just escaped. They will only be relied upon to be good enough for short stretches now. We'll see how they handle it.

Good luck, Evan, Lavoy, and Spence. I hope you all land on your feet. I'm sure Thad wishes he were joining you.

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buke reply to Tray on Feb 21 at 0:27
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And by the way, you're the last person who should be criticizing other writers for exhibiting "run on" tendencies. I don't believe you actually attended Duke because the professors there would have hammered you for your complete disregard for paragraph construction. You don't appear to be even familiar with the concept.

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Tray reply to buke on Feb 21 at 0:52
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I just inserted paragraph breaks in random spots. I still do it now. That said, when I went to top 14 law school X I didn't even bother to break up my paragraphs, especially in exams, and no one cared and. You'd be shocked by (a) how mediocre a school Duke actually is, such that any inference that someone couldn't have gone to Duke if they don't write well or strike you as terribly bright is pretty silly, and (b) how little professors care anymore, or can afford to care if they want to pass anyone, about sentence structure, grammar, syntax, etc. What colleges and graduate schools - good ones anyway - generally grade for is content. I think you're more likely, these days, to be graded on grammar at a community college or a bad state school, community college/bad state schools basically being, as I understand them, extensions of high school that are designed to teach kids skills they didn't learn in their bad public school, like spelling and the difference between its and it's. Tenured professors at top 20 universities or graduate schools don't have the time or interest in instructing students on these sorts of vocational skills. My understanding is that improving what used to be called composition was more of a thing in higher education decades ago, which is perhaps when you went to college.

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buke reply to Tray on Feb 21 at 1:31
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So, your excuse is that since you went to an elite school you're entitled to write like an unschooled individual? You're right. I did my schooling years ago (Bachelors, Masters, Ph.D.). But, you should remember something: the people who make hiring decisions are more likely to be in my generation than in yours, and I would never hire someone who writes like you. My guess is that if you had a real career you wouldn't be spending so much time posting on a site like this.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 23 at 8:49
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This is the comment I'm referring to where he made it personal.

Get your fucking eyes checked if you can't see that he just said the dude had no life completely unprovoked and bragged about his probably non-existent business.

My last image of Hawes as a Sixer: Cavs' Waiters clogging "toilet" with orange ball, without asking 00 (that there was a nice deposit).

A lasting image of Turner: arms wide open in a hieroglyphic of disbelief or displeasure, supported by mouth.

Allen: Needs to find hunger again. And consistency. Big contracts affect. So does getting jettisoned.

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Byron Beck or Mullins on Feb 20 at 23:19
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I didn't understand Clevelands' reason for this trade, with Varejoi and Zellar already in the center spot.

Brian, I can't disagree more with you on 2nd rounders, when all it takes is one C.Parsons to make it all worth it. And this g.m. isn't allergic to the european market like the last regime.

Last time I checked draft express it seemed the top ten picks in this drafts 2nd round could be a talented bunch.

Getting lucky in the second round is coming away with Lavoy Allen. Parsons is like hitting the lottery lucky. They basically have five scratch offs instead of one now, which is good, but nothing to get worked up about.

So what do you think the Sixers' outlook is for the next 5 years? The way I see it:

2014: bottom 3 record
2015: 10-14th worst record
2016: 6-8 seed in the East
2017: Top 5 team in the East
2018: Top 5 team in the League

Unfortunately, I'd say it's more likely they're high in the lottery for the next five years than a top five team. They need to hit with their pick this summer in a big way for your timeline to be feasible.

For example, Houston haas two stars/superstars, got super lucky in the 2nd round once, and they aren't a top five team. Are the Clippers? Even if Wiggins/Parker/Embiid is unreal, they're a long way from top five with a ton of work to do. Actually, their odds would be better if they were terrible next year, too.

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Stan reply to Brian on Feb 21 at 20:46
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I'll be happy if the Sixers can get to Houston's or LAC's level. That's a pretty optimistic outlook for the Sixers. You're right about them still being a bottom 5 team next but I think after two seasons and 5 lottery picks on the roster the Sixers should be sniffing the playoffs by 2016. I'm guess in 2 or 3 years the Sixers should make a big move. They have the assets and cap space to do it.

Make it 6-11 worst next year and i can agree with this. This is closer to the best case scenario though than to the worst case scenario. If things go wrong with this year's pick the team could easily be in the same situation it was last year for the next 5 years.

trade 1: 7/10. Hawes was never going to be resigned and something is better than nothing so it’s a decent deal, but lets not kid ourselves 2 mid second rounders is not a great haul. It would’ve been 9/10 if it was Orlando’s 2nd rounder.

trade 2: 10/10 2 mid second rounders for absorbing a contract as small as Maynor’s is a great haul. The fact that he could actually be more than dead weight is just an added bonus.

trade 3: 8/10 Absorbing Mullens for a Clippers 2018 second rounder is a good deal. Not great as the Clippers 2nd rounder doesn’t project to be good (although who knows what will happen to the Clippers in the meantime) and Mullens has a player option for next year, but similar to Maynor he could potentially play well enough to think he can get more on the open market.

trade 4: 3/10 A pick in the 50s in 2015 is still something, which is more than Turner would be worth to the Sixers next year, but this trade cannot be described as anything but a failure and a major win for the Pacers who both saved a lot of money and got the better (and younger and healthier) player.

Overall when you sum it all up you get an average 7/10. Good but not great. The new CBA and everyone saving assets for stars has really destroyed the joy in trading.

I guess all in all, i was right that Turner and Hawes will in the end get traded for the best available offer, but wrong thinking they'd actually get more than they got.

Were they worth keeping so long? It turns out they weren't but i don't think the result would be different. It was still going to be the 2nd worst record in the league. That being said, the 2nd rounders may not have been available in December, so that's still something even though it's mostly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Btw, none of the tanking teams trying to unload players for assets managed to trade anyone except the Sixers. Tells you a lot about the market and the craziness generated by the 2014 draft and Rondo and Love being on the market.

I would also like to add that all that talk about Hinkie's ego and not willing to lose a trade has been squashed. The Turner trade is a clear loss and Hinkie didn't have any problem of making it happen because it meant getting an additional asset for the good of the team.

Actually all the other GMs of tanking teams showed an ego about losing a trade by not making deals at all. Other players still on tanking rosters or teams that desperately needed a trade include: Gasol, Deng, Nelson, Davis, Butler, Afflalo, Ilyasova, Mayo, Monroe, Gordon, Shumpert, Lowry, Asik etc.

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tk76 reply to Xsago on Feb 21 at 5:58
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I agree that it is sort of strange that so much dead weight remains on these bad teams. I guess I understand not trading Afflalo given his situation is analogous to Thad's.

You are also correct in pointing out this shows Hinkie is not afraid of being perceived as being someone who "loses a trade" or caves. Overall, it does come off as a relatively classy move to send ET to a winner (but no so much in Hawes' case.) He also was willing to help another team (Pacers) in a way that did not hurt the Sixers but got little return.

Had Hinkie made a similar trade with Houston I think it would have been perceived as favoritism. Giving a contender a good player, an extra big and taking on 5M of salary is quite generous, and does effect the balance of power a bit. Say what you will about ET, but he is a big upgrade over their wing bench players and tremendous injury insurance.

I agree. As much as we hate Turner, he can be very useful in the right context. A lot of experts are lukewarm to this acquisition for the Pacers, because ET is inefficient, but i think he can be a significant upgrade as a 6th man for Indiana. The Pacers bench really lacked someone who can create off the dribble, which is why they struggled mightily on the offensive end. They essentially had to turn Stephenson into a PG for the bench unit to have some type of creativity.

Also it will be interesting to see if the Pacers try a super long lineup of Turner/Stephenson/George/West/Hibbert. They need Hill's three point shooting on the offensive end IMO, but this could be an intriguing lineup with three capable ball handlers with great length for their position.

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sfw reply to Xsago on Feb 21 at 7:36
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The Pacers are making moves in an effort to beat the Heat. Lavoy is helpful big body to take on Lebron & company. Evan plays pretty well against the Heat. Signing Bynum kept him from the Heat. Just hate to see Bynum get a ring.

I doubt Lebron, Dwyane & Co. are shivering in their flip-flops at thoughts of Allen's and Turner's "resistance." Added depth can't hurt Pacers though. Unless the kidet's instagram impulses come into play. He's capable of challenging anything. Including best laid plans of Larry Legend.

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Charlie reply to tk76 on Feb 21 at 15:42
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So Hinkie did the Turner deal as a favor? And Indy owes him one? I thought the league was more cutthroat than that. It's as good an explanation as any, I guess. I can't think of any other way this helped the team. (The 2nd rounder is not the answer. If there was no deal, they'd still have Lavoy, who's better than the average 2nd round pick just by virtue of making a roster.)

It definitely wasn't hubris, it was delusion.

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GoSixers reply to Brian on Feb 21 at 19:43
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His or yours?

I wasn't the one thinking they'd get first rounders for them. I was the one saying they should've taken this kind of return two months ago.

earl clark waived

Gonna miss him. Good soldier. Not a peep out of him.

couldn't they just send ZO back to DEL?

no, you only get 15 roster spots

even if you send brown down he still counts as a roster spot

Candidate for I-95 fatigue syndrome. Why are they making him do the Curly Shuffle?

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GrangerBeast on Feb 21 at 14:33
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I love the moves Hinkie made today. We got a true backup PG, freed up playing time for Moultrie and our young perimeter players, and we got a bunch of picks as well as players we can cut or buyout easily.

Now we can really see what this team can do, and that's without even factoring Nerlens into the equation. Can't wait for tonight's game.

you guys make me depress

I guess I don't really understand the harsh criticism of Hinkie's moves yesterday. Sure Hinkie didn't get what he was he was hoping for but I hardly believed he went into the deadline believing that he was going to secure a 1st Rd pick for Hawes/Turner. Did anyone who comments on this site ever think Turner and Hawes would garner a first rounder either now or before the season started? Furthermore, if Hinkie would have taken these deals two months ago, the critique would have been "well if a bunch of 2nd rd's was all he was going to get, he should have waited until the deadline".

This team is in a better tanking position today than it was yesterday. And I get that Turner and Hawes equalled a number of bad wins over the last two months, but the right move was to let the deadline unfold. This team as currently constructed is a pile of shit. There is time to lose and lose they will. Comments like the league is "laughing at Hinkie"...I don't see it. Really? Because he has the Sixers in such a "terrible" spot going into this offseason. Don't think so.

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GrangerBeast reply to The Six on Feb 21 at 15:32
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I thought they would, actually, and I also find it hilarious that you think this team is a pile of shit.

MCW, Moultrie, Thad, Wroten, (Noel next year), Hollis Thompson, and Elliot Williams is a pile of shit? You can't be serious. Maynor is also a solid backup and a serious upgrade over Lorenzo Brown. Mullens though... ehh he keeps the bench warm at least.

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The Six reply to GrangerBeast on Feb 21 at 15:49
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You sound real smart.

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GrangerBeast reply to The Six on Feb 21 at 18:10
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It's really, moron.

Guarantee I'm smarter than you, but hey keep talking like a typical internet loudmouth.

That's hilarious. The guy crawling all over the thread like some kind of vermin for the sole purpose of attacking others' posts is calling someone else a loudmouth. I'm with The Six. You sound like someone with a mentality one step above a raving subway vagrant.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 21 at 19:09
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No what's really hilarious is the way dudes like you talk like you're an expert when you probably just started watching basketball yesterday.

I call 'em like I see 'em. Loser insulted my intelligence so I came right back at him.

I don't care how I sound to somebody with zero basketball knowledge. All you have is your little overused, generic comebacks, and I don't need any of that.

God you're a douche.

Wrong again, guttersnipe.

Calling someone "a douche" is an "overused, generic comeback." Likening someone to a raving subway lunatic has an element of originality and creativity.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 22 at 2:15
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Except when it's overused by every douche like you, as are words like "guttersnipe". Also, what non-hipster/non-douche uses the word "screed"? Honestly, try harder to come off as everything you're not.

I call you a douche because you are one, not because I like the insult.

Like I said, I'd love to see you call me any of it to my face. Love how tough you dudes talk and then how much you try to act like you're above fighting just because you can't back your mouth up.

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Charlie reply to The Six on Feb 21 at 15:58
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Good points, but the team is not in a better position than they were yesterday. A team simply can't get any worse than losing by 30 AT HOME to a bad team with major chemistry problems. The team as it was before the trade could not beat anybody anyway.

But hey, look at the bright side. We did Larry Bird a favor! We're nice! It's got to help us in the long run, right? Maybe Larry will give us another 2nd rounder.

And I don't buy the need-to-develop-the-young-players theory. They're not going to keep any of those players (Moultrie, Wroten, Williams, Thompson). MCW would be developed in any case. They'e going to bring back MCW, Thad and Noel, that's it. And they'll probably trade Thad on draft day.

Oh wait, I get it - they're developing the young players for other teams. You know, as a favor.

The team was fairly gritty and competitive when healthy until about mid December, when they fell off of a 3-17 cliff. This timing exactly coincides with the mid-December time when ET/Hawes/Young were eligible for trades. I think it is human nature that those guys lost focus from then on, and the team basically fell apart- and I don't mean it as be critical as it is human nature.

From both the front office and the players perspective, these guys have not been viewed as part of the team's future since the beginning of the season. Everyone was just waiting for the axe to drop, and I think it is good that they have a bit of closure to this whole transition. I'm not saying they are a better team today, but they probably will be a more focussed and energetic team from here on out now that the roster is solely comprised of players who are either part of the team's future, or happy for the chance to play for the team. well every one but Thad, and he is a trooper :)

You see it in every sport that when you have a major change of management and direction that the team often benefits from completely cleaning house, even if it requires and step back, it puts everyone on the same page movinbg forward. It was Spring Cleaning day, and although the team still stinks, it will at least be refreshed starting tonight.

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Charlie reply to tk76 on Feb 21 at 19:38
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I agree. I honestly believe that Thad can be a part of the team's future though. He's still young, and they're going to need more than just the 5 or 6 draft picks that stick in the next 2 or 3 years. Why not keep a good athletic player who can defend the pick and roll and score a little? They're not that easy to find. If they trade him, it's going to be for a guy who might become as good as Thad in 3 years.

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tk76 reply to Charlie on Feb 22 at 11:37
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I agree with you. I'm just not sure the team or Thad agrees.

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GrangerBeast reply to Charlie on Feb 21 at 18:13
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According to who? Really, who are you to speak as an expert on the subject?

You can "not buy" it all you like but it's how you build a team. You see what you currently have and what you need, and they couldn't do that with Hawes, Spencer, and even Lavoy taking minutes from the young guys.

I bet you would've traded Hibbert and Stephenson after their rookie years if you ran the Pacers.

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Charlie reply to GrangerBeast on Feb 21 at 19:44
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Huh? I'm just a bewildered fan asking questions and stating an opinion or two. But that doesn't matter, does it? You just want to be pissed off at somebody you don't know for no good reason, so knock yourself out.

I've been watching basketball for 50 years, and I've never claimed to be an expert. 90% of the guys who post here know a lot more than I do - that's why I come here. And they're mostly civil. You should follow their example.

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GrangerBeast reply to Charlie on Feb 22 at 2:28
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You spoke as an expert. I challenged your position as an expert. That's not being uncivil. You disrespected players who have either not gotten a chance to prove what they can do or who have proven themselves in this league or at one level or another and I'm not going to let somebody do that without saying something. No basketball player would discount what another player has done or another player's ability so who are you to do that? Even guys I think are douchebags in the league will openly recognize that this guy or that guy made his mark in high school or college or in the pros at some point. Game recognizes game.

Love the psychoanalysis though. Last time I checked, I'm not the one claiming the roster is shit or that this or that experiment has failed or any of that other crap, now am I?

none of the new guys are playing tonight

only 8 available tonight

MCW, Wroten, Anderson, Young and Moultrie likely starters

E Williams instead of wroten

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GrangerBeast reply to sixerfan1220 on Feb 21 at 18:19
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Perfect. Now the young guys and Thad can get some major minutes against a major opponent.

old friend dalembert wins the tip

mcw bucket

sammy misses a layup

moultrie jumper

dirk hits both ft

dirk so good

mcw splits the p/r

thompson misses open shot

thompson putback

mcw and 1

made the ft

wroten to the line

made both

down 18 end of the first

Mavs shooting over 75% in the first.

thad blows by dirk for the bucket

thad 3

moultrie putback and 1

missed the ft

wroten to the line

split them

thad steal leads to a wroten dunk

mavs cant handle the trap

anderson bucket

3 on thompson

wroten and 1

made the ft

good help by brown

mcw missed 3

no more wroten fouls please

3's not fouls

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GrangerBeast reply to sixerfan1220 on Feb 21 at 22:58
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He needs to shoot threes to get better at them. This idea that players who aren't perfect shooters shouldn't shoot threes is just asinine. He has the potential to hit that shot with regularity. He's not a power forward.

Double post here. Haven't been able to post my thoughts since yesterday. I was a believer in holding onto hawes and turner into the deadline because it could give us better value. I don't think that happened, but I won't call it a total failure.

I respect if you think we should have dealt them in December. We don't know what we could have got for them then but I think it's safe to say it wouldn't be much less than what we did get. I valued the optionality over the extra Ping pong balls but again, I get the other side.

I think Hinkie gets a C I'm execution. I don't think there was anything better available but I also won't give him credit where not much is do. I like the second rounders, I was really pumped when I thought we got Orlando's, but again, won't over credit. We have free options now which are like lotto tickets.

I DO give Hinkie an A for effort. Maybe I am day a sad state of fandom, but I respect that we have a clear view on vision. The path is clear and we are aggressive with it, I will take that. Holding onto turner was a risk to our win column. Cutting him was a pr disaster, Indiana was the fallback plan. That is the way I see it.

I heard from an owner that the market was limited and no one wanted to give up a first for anyone ( I read that as Thad). Effort doesn't win but I'll take it. Execution will be key going forward.

I must say I really liked heari Hinkies interview. I thought he might be purely a stats introvert but he has some charisma. I'd recommend watching the 3 minutes on the sixers page for those who haven't. I like the tone and reality that he seems to have,

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The Six reply to Rusty on Feb 22 at 0:15
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I enjoyed the interview(s) as well. I think Hinkie deserves a chance to execute what I feel is a very sound plan for today's NBA. He talks about building a pipeline and I couldn't agree more. I was actually surprised by the way he talked up Hollis Thompson. He feels Thompson is a good example of what he's try trying to do with this team - keep trying out parts to see how they fit. And according to Hinkie, Thompson is a nice fit beyond this season.

I love what he's doing.

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GrangerBeast reply to The Six on Feb 22 at 0:19
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Absolutely hilarious to see you backtrack now.

You're like that idiot who writes for LibertyBallers who said earlier this year that last season "Moultrie showed zero basketball skills".

God I love you "experts" who didn't even watch basketball until a few years ago.

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Rusty reply to The Six on Feb 22 at 8:31
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I only caught a recap which didn't have the Hollis portion. I am really unsure on Hollis but when I consider his age and how long it can take for a guy to actually develop, it makes sense. He seems to have the bility to be a 3 and de guy. His shot from deep hasn't been where we want it but that can take a couple of years to get it on in fake flow. He has shown in the past that he can do it.

mcw makes both ft

mcw to williams and 1!

made the ft

anderson fouled shooting a 3

nice job by mcw splitting the p/r

bad pass mcw

dirk turnover

thad putback

good fight after being down 22

down 69-62 at the half

Almost every game today has seeding implications for the Sixers. I guess I'm rooting for:

Bobcats over Pelicans
Knicks over Magic
Dallas over Philadelphia
Cleveland over Toronto
Detroit over Atlanta
Denver over Chicago
Memphis over LAC
Utah over Portland
Lakers over Celtics

The only game that doesn't matter is Spurs vs. Suns.

why MEM over LAC? they have MEM 2nd rounder

I thought they were in competition with New Orleans over seeding but they have a 7 game lead over them. Doesn't really matter, I don't really see much of difference between the 44th and the 40th pick.

thad to anderson

stop running ellis off the 3pt line

thad jumper

dirk 3

thad to thompson

wroten splits the ft

mcw to thad

keep driving mcw

even if they wont give you the call

Since the Sixers will miss the playoffs this year they don't have to give up their 2016 1st round draft pick no matter what. Even if they don't end up giving up their 1st round draft pick in 2015 either.

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tk76 reply to Stan on Feb 22 at 11:44
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Intresting. I don't quite understand all of the preconditions with their 1st rounders. I know that if the miss the playoffs next year that the Moultrie 1st becomes 2 seconds. Ind IIRC, the Bynum 1st is much more complicated, and likely will be conveyed as a 1st and not become 2 2mds unless the team is really bad for 5 more years.

Thompson 3

dirk 3 at the buzzer

down 101-89 end of the 3rd

Dirk Fuckin' Nowitzki

thad 3

t on mcw

wroten to the line

split them

mcw to the line

made both

thad putback

nice play for an anderson 3

lost 124-112

the bucks on monday

43 mintes for Thad!!!! That's hilarious.

I think we're going to see some gaudy lines from Thad and MCW the rest of the way. 30/13/6/7 steals/5 turns is pretty crazy.

They played 8 guys tonight: Thad, Moultrie and six smalls.

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Tray reply to Brian on Feb 21 at 22:54
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So crazy that Olajuwon's the other player to ever do it (not counting the turnovers).

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tk76 reply to Tray on Feb 22 at 11:48
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I might be the only one, but I'm really hyped to see Thad get to be "the man" for the rest of the season. He is the rare player who I do not mind watching put up a ton of shots.

While I don't think he has the skill set to ever be that type of player, I do think the experience will help raise his game. He gets away with a poor handle and playing at of control at times. But now he will have to tighten his game up a bit given the extra chances and attention he will draw. Expect lots more big numbers (sort of like when Iggy averaged 19.9/5/5 the years after the Iverson trade.)

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The Six reply to tk76 on Feb 22 at 13:46
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I was extremely impressed with Thad last night. If anyone had reason to sulk about not getting traded (and Thad deserves better than this team) it's him. Yet he was hustling all game, even when they were down double digits with just minutes left in the 4th. That says a lot about his character, leadership, and professionalism.

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tk76 reply to The Six on Feb 22 at 13:55
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Thad is one of my all time favorite Sixers for how he represents the team and the game. I grew up watching the end of Dr. J's career where he was held up as a classy ambassador of the game. I'm not certain J completely lived up to his image (which I'd fine), but Thad really seems to fit what a professional should be and plays with the intensity I tried to do when I still played. I admire that more than talent alone.

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The Six reply to tk76 on Feb 22 at 14:10
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Yeah...we're probably about the same age. I too was more towards the end of his career. Off the court, no doubt Doc liked having a "two-car garage", but on the whole he was a was a good ambassador for the team and city. I agree that Thad is the next closest to Doc in that regard. And there really is spot for him on this team fit-wise if everything works out and he's not traded on draft day or over the summer. I was just so impressed with his attitude last night. That sounds weird, but with today's athlete the bar is set low. Thad is different.

I haven't been a Sixers fan as long as you 2 have (probably because i'm younger) but Thad is my favorite Sixer of all time as well. I've been following the team since the mid 90s (more or less since the Iverson years even though AI wasn't the reason i started rooting for the team) and honestly i can't remember anyone that comes even close (i guess Jrue would be number 2).

And i would love to keep him with the Sixers for the duration of his career, but i really doubt it will happen. The Sixers would rather have a pick and cap space (that can be used to acquire other picks) than his contract unfortunately even though he is fairly paid.

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GrangerBeast reply to Xsago on Feb 23 at 8:25
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I find this to be ridiculous, just as I found the idea that we should trade Thad ridiculous. If you want to be a contender, you have to be willing to pay guys like Thad, who might I add isn't making all that much money compared to similar guys. You're not going to find a better player to replace him as a sixth man, either currently in the league or in this draft or any other in the future. He's got no ego and he plays his heart out every game. On top of that, he hasn't even scratched the surface of his game, though after all of these years of not being developed it's possible that there's nothing more there anymore.

If he wants to start though, then yeah I would trade him, because he isn't ever going to be a true PF. He'd be perfect for the Lakers, in my opinion.

Which part of the post you are replying to is ridiculous?

Thad is a good enough player to be a good starter on a contender. And his game is perfectly suited for the modern NBA. There are no big PFs who can take advantage of him in the post anymore. And even the few that are left can't really have that big of an impact because Thad has improved in that area greatly.

Really, none of the people who think Thad shouldn't be a starter are offering any realistic reasons why Thad can't be a starting 4 on a contender except his measurements, despite fairly high amounts of data that suggest his height hasn't been a problem at all.

Orlando beat the Knicks today pulling themselves 2 games ahead of the Sixers. The Pistons won which means the Pelicans are half a game within the 10th worst record.

An optimistic yet realistic projection for the Pelicans would be for them to have the 8th worst record. Right now they have the 11th worst record but Cleveland, Detroit and New York are trying to get into the playoffs and are at least within 1.5 games of New Orleans.

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GrangerBeast on Feb 21 at 23:05
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Man the Sixers really showed what a pile of shit their team is tonight, huh? Wroten's definitely not in their future plans, either, or Moultrie.

This is what I expected out of Thad as a Sixer. He's finally getting a chance to play in a way he hasn't gotten since he was drafted. He had a chance to easily drop 40 a few weeks back and the team never passed him the ball after he had 29 at the end of the half. I want to see him, Wroten, and Moultrie start showing what they can do because they're the guys with a future on the Sixers. I like Elliot Williams and James Anderson of course, but both really missed their chance in the league, partially to injury.

Tool

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GrangerBeast reply to Jfp on Feb 22 at 0:14
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Loser. John Gonzalez and LibertyBallers/700Level/CrossingBroad teach you how to talk sports?

Pathetic casual/bandwagon fans.

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The Six reply to GrangerBeast on Feb 22 at 0:03
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You sound "really" smart.

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GrangerBeast reply to The Six on Feb 22 at 0:17
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About a thousand times smarter than you considering I'm not the one talking out of his ass about basketball.

Go on and say how Moultrie and Wroten definitely aren't in their future plans again, and how the roster is a pile of shit, you damn moron. You know NOTHING about basketball, just what you regurgitate and your pathetic, generic little comebacks, insults, and one-liners.

How come I never saw you comment here before this year? Bandwagon fan.

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GrangerBeast reply to The Six on Feb 22 at 0:28
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I respect Brian because I know he's watched every single game since starting this site and I know he's probably watched every single game well before then. Even when I disagree with him, no matter how disrespectful he is towards me or anybody else, he has shown both his basketball knowledge and his dedication and willingness to suffer through losing seasons like a true fan does. GoSixers has shown some basketball knowledge as well. Rich has, tk76 has, even Derek Bodner who I personally do not like as a "writer" has shown some basketball knowledge, and so has Tray at times. They've also been here for years, watching the games and commenting so I can respect that.

You guys who come out of nowhere and speak as experts and insult everybody who disagrees with you though... I have no reason to respect you nor have you earned that from anybody. I'm also not going to take even one iota of your shit. Get the hell over yourself.

There are some things far more important than whether or not someone has basketball knowledge. For example, someone like you who reveals himself to be white trash is still white trash regardless of the level of basketball knowledge. People who are not white trash (and even some who are) do not appreciate white trash regardless of how much basketball knowledge said trash may have. Have I explained this phenomena at a level that is elementary enough for you to grasp?

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 22 at 1:57
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I love how people like you will call others white trash because you think your background makes it not possible for you to be that when some of the most white trash people come from comfortable backgrounds. Also, I'd love for you to call me white trash to my face you f-ing wannabe little loudmouth. You grandstanding and acting like trash apparently doesn't make you trash but anybody who can back up his words is trash huh? What a sad, delusional world you live in.

There aren't more important things than having basketball knowledge when discussing basketball. Sorry, Josh. That's why casual, bandwagon fans like you will always lose.

Keep talking your pathetic, generic, overused crap. In reality, only sheltered simpletons like yourself are the least bit impressed by it. I've got more class in my little pinky than you could ever have in your whole body, and as for intelligence.... Display some before you go insulting that of other people.

Stop acting like a douche and then you can call somebody else trash, you pathetic disgrace.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 22 at 2:01
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Keep showing why you deserve zero respect, you pathetic loudmouth disgrace. What a pathetic, fake little douche you are.

I'd rather discuss hoops with someone with a bit of civility. I don't mind people getting heated and fired up, but that is different from constant attack.

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GrangerBeast reply to tk76 on Feb 23 at 7:32
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If you'd rather discuss hoops with civility then tell loudmouths like that kid WHO CAME AT ME, not the other way around, to stop personally attacking people. Kid said somebody else had no life after insulting his writing ability. Did I do that? No. I just responded to his piece of trash ass trying to call me white trash.

Loudmouths like him run their mouths all day long yet I'M the fucking "troll" (who the hell uses that word anyway besides some internet nerds) for responding?

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 22 at 2:02
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I love how dudes like you think talking that way makes you come off as intelligent. In reality, it makes you come off like a simpleton trying way too hard to be something he's not.

Was phenomena your word of the day today?

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 22 at 2:04
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Oh, and you talk like a fourteen year old girl. Definitely the epitome of what a man should be.

Seems like I hit a nerve. That's because deep down you know I'm right. Night, night, trash boy.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 22 at 2:40
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No, you said something that you couldn't back up in real life. You wish you could hit a nerve because you wish you could affect somebody like that because then maybe you would be as important as you wish you were.

Like I said, call me trash boy to my face. The only trash here is you, you sad little wannabe. How many people have you personally attacked in this comments section alone? I never attacked anybody who didn't attack me. I attacked their opinions. You don't see me calling somebody a loser or saying they have no life who said nothing to me. You on the other hand have done nothing but that, you sad little overgrown brat.

You're a joke to me. Keep talking big online, because we both know you ain't shit. That's why you have to grandstand like this.

Ima laugh my fucking ass off when your suburbs show on the outside and in the numbers just how trashy the inhabitants have always been. Good luck dealing with the wave of crime and problems that's coming your way. When was the last time you actually did something for your neighbor in your "great community", you fucking Culdesac Kid?

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The Six reply to GrangerBeast on Feb 22 at 4:01
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"Ima laugh my fucking ass off when your suburbs show on the outside and in the numbers just how trashy the inhabitants have always been. Good luck dealing with the wave of crime and problems that's coming your way. When was the last time you actually did something for your neighbor in your "great community", you fucking Culdesac Kid?'

Hey "Ima", - when you put the bottle down, can we get back to how much Arnett Moultrie sucks?

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Tray reply to The Six on Feb 22 at 13:26
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This exchange confused me. And where did white trash come from? Calling someone white trash is racist, first of all; the term was popularized by upper-class Southerners during the years of slavery and Jim Crow, the thought being that there was something wrong with a white person who was poor or uneducated, while poverty and illiteracy were to be expected of black people. In other words, they viewed "white trash" as the social equivalent of slaves, or emancipated blacks. That's why no one says "black trash"; even today, calling someone white trash suggests that they're failing to live up to the standards of whiteness, which implies that those standards are higher than standards for other races. If you think someone is trashy, you should just call them trash; adding that they're white only serves to imply that their trashiness is particularly offensive because, being white, they should be better.

That all said, there's something wrong with that guy. If you want to talk about how Wroten and Moultrie are a part of our future, just talk about it.

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buke reply to Tray on Feb 22 at 14:14
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OK, maybe I should have limited my descriptor to just "trash" but the guy seemed white to me and the term just seemed to fit at the time. Seems to me that he likely was the same rancid presence who came to this site from time to time under a newly adopted screen name each time and proceeded to dominate a thread with comments about how little almost everyone else but him knows.

I figure that if he is going to engage in this behavior on frequent basis the rest of us can at least make his experience as unpleasant as possible and maybe get some entertainment value when he blows a gasket.

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GrangerBeast reply to buke on Feb 23 at 7:43
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The only piece of trash here is you, you classist douche. You do nothing but insult people and speak as an expert then you have the fucking nerve to call me a troll or white trash.

"Get some entertainment value" because you're the type of dude who would never say anything to anybody's face. See because that's when your entertainment ends. Pieces of shit like you can talk and front like you're hard as hell all you want, and if I respond by telling you the same shit I'd say in person, shit anybody says when somebody is trying to grandstand on them, I'm "threatening you". So I won't. I'll just fucking laugh at you instead because I know you're the type of dude who shuts the fuck up real quick when somebody has a problem with something you said.

God I can't stand people like you.

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GrangerBeast reply to Tray on Feb 23 at 7:54
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You're right about white trash being a racist term but you're wrong about why it's racist. Why do black dudes always think racism begins and ends with them? Irish people were treated the exact same way you were by the English, even fought side by side with you as slaves until being tricked into turning against you in the last multiracial rebellion, and were called and depicted as monkeys, white niggers, etc etc.

That's why white trash is a racist term. It's nowhere near as bad as the n word, obviously, but it was still first used to describe the poor white slaves and indentured servants (and there's a difference between the two) and their descendants.

Either way, I've always seen white trash as being people who come from comfortable backgrounds yet act and talk ghetto and behave in a way that they claim to be "above".

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GrangerBeast reply to The Six on Feb 23 at 7:36
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Except he doesn't.

Just like Wroten doesn't, and anybody who says he does is a moron.

Moultrie has barely even played since coming into the league and you want to say he sucks? Yeah, you've been a true fan since watching Dr. J... okay.

I'm all well and good with discussing or even arguing about basketball. I'm not okay with having my intelligence insulted by a bandwagon ass moron or being called trash by a piece of trash from the suburbs who can't see that you can't buy class.

That escalated quickly...

Guys chill!

Anyway, i actually enjoyed the game. The talent level is obviously horrible and the team was incredibly overmatched, but the effort level was great and if it stays that way the team will actually be watchable even if they lose all of the games rest of the way. And i fully expect 20+ losses by the end of the year.

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Rusty reply to Xsago on Feb 22 at 8:37
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Haha, I agree there needs to be some relaxation on here.

It's just amazing how Thad continues to play like with the same intensity. He does embody what the team is looking for, and I credit him for being able to separate the disappointment of the deadline and just play.

I think MCW and Hollis are probably the only guys in our future, maybe if Wroten can find an ounce if efficiency but he fits a buy low/sell high trade piece that I expect to see Hinkie do. Not saying we will sell him for much but I can't see his style fitting in with a good team. I hope he proves me wrong, he is clearly a hard worker and maybe develops something resembling a shot in the offseason.

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tk76 reply to Rusty on Feb 22 at 12:00
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Agree with you both. that was a really enjoyable basketball game. Great level of effort and very little whining or sulking from the Sixers given their current 10 game losing streak.

Immensely enjoy watching Thad and MCW being asked to be the man. Both showed lots of flaws, but neither shied from the task, and fought through some honest mistakes. I also thought Wroten played his game well, but I'd like to see his game grow and diversify a little bit between now and the end of the season. He is only 20, but he needs to show the ability to at least start to expand his game from simply driving with "no regard for human life."

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GrangerBeast reply to Rusty on Feb 23 at 8:05
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I have to disagree with both of you here.

First, saying the "talent level is horrible" is lazy and taking the easy way out rather than waiting and seeing what the talent is.

Guys like Wroten have talent, more talent than the majority of NBA players. He's pretty much exactly like a shorter version of Terrence Ross, and it's obvious by how he plays. He's a streetball player, which means he's wild and isn't keen on defense but that he can flat out score in a way the players who grow up playing nothing but organized ball can't. He's fearless, which the team needs, and if he gets his shot and his moves much tighter, he's a guy who can easily average 18 off the bench, on the cheap. The idea that he's a buy low/sell high guy is ridiculous but at least it respects his game, rather than saying he sucks or whatever other crap. No way I'd trade a guy with his potential until I'd done my absolute best to tap it.

Hollis is another guy who they don't know what they have in him but they know he has potential. He could be a guy who can shoot and be a lockdown defender but who can also drive the lane and create his own offense, but that will take a lot of work.

Elliot Williams has a lot of talent and is a gamer but his time might have passed him by unfortunately, as it clearly has James Anderson. Still, there's no reason either couldn't be a Gary Neal type who is a coveted, valuable bench player.

This is ridiculous on so many levels.

1. Talent doesn't equal potential. Sure Wroten, and even Thompson and Williams to a degree have the potential to be pretty good. But they are not there yet. Far from it. I like Wroten a ton, but he is not helping his team win games right now. Quite the contrary. And he won't be a valuable player until he learns to play under control and learn to shoot three pointers to at least 30%

2. He's pretty much exactly like a shorter version of Terrence Ross, and it's obvious by how he plays.

This is hilarious on so many levels. First of all he's not even shorter than him, they are about the same size. Second, their games couldn't be more different. Ross is player who excels off the ball in spot up situations and on the break. He doesn't really have a handle though, nor any NBA level driving ability. Wroten meanwhile is one of the worst shooters in the NBA amongst perimeter players, who has one elite NBA skill - driving to the rim. He can be dangerous on the ball, but is a liability off it.

The only realistic comparison for Wroten IMO, is Tyreke Evans with both the good sides and the bad ones. Evans is better shooter though, despite being pretty bad himself.

Brian, I'm all for open discussion and differing views but is there any way to send the kindergartener back to timeout? really...

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Chris reply to Rodney on Feb 22 at 12:06
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Yeah, Brian, can we do something about the troll, please?

The sole purpose of all of his comments has been to attack other commenters, not to discuss basketball.

Will handle it when I have a minute. In the mean time, just ignore.

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GrangerBeast reply to Chris on Feb 23 at 7:48
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What the fuck are you talking about? Do you need glasses or something? My first damn comment was saying about how I liked the moves Hinkie made, and I didn't fucking attack anybody until I was attacked.

This is why I don't comment on any basketball sites anymore. Sports has been taken over by casual fan douchebags like you who do nothing but talk big, cop ghetto slang repurposed as "net speak", talk as experts when you're not and use stats for your whole damn argument, and insult everybody who contradicts your bullshit, asinine opinions then accuse THEM of being a "troll" or of whatever other bullshit.

And you have the nerve to call me a kindergartner? How you fucking act is the definition of a kindergartener. You're like those kids who threw sand on other kids all day long then whined about how you "got attacked" when you got beat the fuck up by the kids you were trying to pick on.

Grow up, kid.

"This is why I don't comment on any basketball sites anymore."


That was the funniest thing I've read in recent memory. Except for the 30 or so posts you've written on this thread alone, you're a regular silent Cal.

What can I say? You're just a gift that keeps giving.

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Scott from VT on Feb 22 at 21:31
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What does everyone think of Semaj Christon as a 2nd round pick?

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GrangerBeast reply to Scott from VT on Feb 23 at 8:34
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Personally I'd like to see the Sixers draft a guy like Poynthress in the 2nd round, especially if they're going to get rid of Thad.

He's got a lot of growing up to do, and he's been disappointing (though he has been overshadowed by Randle to be fair) but he's got a ton of potential and could be a steal in the 2nd round.

I agree with you on Poythress, I am the minority but I think Gordon, Harrell and Poythress are high energy bigs. I think their upside is in that order but I'd rather gets APs value is the best here. I just don't see Gordon as more than as a glue guy. I realize I'm not giving him benefit of the doubt like I do with wiggins,

Watching the Clippers today, if I'm a fan of that team I would not feel comfortable at all. They have all of the individual talent that a team could ask for, yet they are soft, play terrible defense, and get intimidated come post-season. I think Collins said they play like an All-Star team, and I think he's dead on. They're so proud of themselves with the high-flying ally-oops and big dunks yet offer so little at the other end of the floor. And when you consider that they have an elite defensive Five in Jordan, it's surprising that they play so poorly along the perimeter.

It will be interesting to see how Hinkie builds this team. I really hope that he drafts/signs players with the idea of becoming an elite defensive team. I'd hate to see a team like the Clip.

...was that sixers team two years ago that was winning playoff games 68-66 an elite defensive team?

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The Six reply to das411 on Feb 23 at 18:42
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No they certainly we're not elite. And they also had no chance at winning a championship. There is a difference in winning playoff games and having a chance to legitimately win a championship. This Clippers team has no chance (in my opinion at least) to win a championship primarily because their D is pathetic.

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The Six reply to The Six on Feb 23 at 18:43
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* were

I think there are 2 types of bad defensive teams. Those without who lack potential defensive talent like the Sixers or OKC 3 years ago have no shot. But teams who have elite athletes with size and quickness who are disinterested like the Clips might be able to knuckle down for a few good defensive possessions in a close playoff game. It is still a big weakness, but I'm not sure it condemns them like it would a team that lacked their athletes.

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The Six reply to tk76 on Feb 23 at 20:08
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True. But I think the Miami Heat is more in line with your example. The play disinterested at times during the regular season, but come playoffs, the become dominant. I'm not sure the Clippers can do that. I also think that they are too much of a finesse team that would rather not get dirty and/or "bloodied up" in a rough series.

I wouldn't call Jordan an "elite defensive center". He has no understanding of defensive positioning. His awareness is really bad.

That being said, the Clippers have improved dramatically on the defensive end this year. They were really bad in the past, but they are slightly above average now.

I think our second pick ultimately comes down to Randle or Vonleh. It could be us trading up for whichever falls. But for me it will be interesting if we do have this choice. I think I always thought Hinkie would be a measurements guy (vonleh) but after seeing some interviews and his history I could see him taking Randle (heart, hustle, intangibles).

I think Vonleh is fits next to Noel but I just lovvvve Randle's style. I don't think Calipari uses Randle's full arsenal of perimeter ability. And I think the spacing in the league will benefit him. I expect Randle to fall in the rankings outside of UK making a big run. I think vonleh will jump from combine numbers etc. let's get one of them.


ps for full disclosure I was a big Shabazz fan for the last draft. He has time to develop but I'll admit I was probably wrong on that call.

I was thinking they draft a SG and SF with their lottery picks. Got to leave a space open for Love, right ;)

They won't draft for need...

It will be easy enough to do both. Embiid is the only player where fit/need even becomes an issue, and I'm sure they will pick him if he is seen as the best player on the board.

Probably same issue with Exum/MCW as you have with Embiid/Noel. In both cases it could work, but is less than ideal, imo.

Agree, but MCW/Exum would probably not struggle the way that Noel/Embiid would. In their case it would be more of a bit of excess and redundant talent at PG/SG while with the bigs it would be a bigger problem where it hurts your offense. But defensively it would also be a bit of redundant talent by wasting one of them away from the basket (which is fine IMO given the benefit of always having a rim protector in the lane at all times.)

Regardless, if they have a top 3 pick I'm pretty sure we see either Wiggins or Parker drafted. If they drop to 4 or 5 then it will get more tricky.

Outside of floor spacing (and Exum's still very young), I don't see much problem with MCW and Exum's skill sets.

If neither of your guards is a legit threat from the outside, floor spacing is going to be a huge issue. Day 1, I don't think MCW/Exum shoot well enough to really play together.

Obviously, they can play together, meant to say I don't think they're going to work that well together unless one of them greatly improves from the outside.

I think Exum is too young to be branded a non-shooter. MCW is a bit more dangerous case because he's already 22 (nobody knows who much he can improve going forward). But Exum is 18 and has a lot of time to improve his shot. And his shot might not be even that bad, we don't have enough data on it at the moment to make such a conclusion.

To me MCW/Exum reminds me in some ways to Dragic/Bledsoe in Phoenix. I think there is no reason to worry about fit about them. Not initially at least. Long term, if they can't improve their shooting you can just trade one of them. With Embiid and Noel it's a little more difficult but it's still worth trying out for a season or two.

Btw, i'm getting a feeling that the Lakers will land Exum. I'd be pissed if that happened.

Oh yeah, I definitely think he will be a Laker. I think both parties want it and the Lakers should be in a position to make it happen. I can even imagine a Kobe like draft day situation where another team is "encouraged" to trade Exum to the Lakers.

I also think the Lakers are a great landing spot for Exum. Kobe will really toughen him to the NBA game and LA will be able to both bring him along slowly and put good talent around him.

Not really branding either of them as non-shooters, but I think it's safe to say neither o