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The Number Two Pick: One Week To Go

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Jason Mess on Jun 17 at 0:09
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I am torn between Turner and Favors at pick number 2. If we trade the pick then it is pretty easy. I think I wold like to se Favors a bit more but would be really happy with Turner. I think that you need a true leader who is very skilled but maybe not a 20 ppg guy. Think when the team made it to the final with AI3 what where we missing, I think most of us would say a good secondary go to guy. So if we draft Turner is he the first? who is the second ? The same goes for if we draft Favors I think he will take a couple of years to be a first or second. with Cousins I think he could be a second but not a first you would need a good wing player with him. With Wes Johnson I think he a lot like Turner can step in right away and be the second and quickly develop into a first. I think the last couple of finals have shown you need at least two really good scoring options because the other team is going to make one of your top guys a lot less effective night in and night out.

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bebopdeluxe on Jun 17 at 0:20
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For me, the reasons why I have gravitated to Turner are his mature-beyond-his-years game (watching him play, it seems like the game slows down for him...as it does for all the greatrs), what appears to be a solid work ethic and a genuine desire to improve every aspect of his game, a personality (which I have gathered from recent interviews) that shows maturity, says all the right things, and suggests an intelligence to - like Jrue did - learn quickly and incorporate the things he learns into his game.

I also think that it is REALLY hard to win in the NBA without a STUD who can score (and initiate the score) from the perimeter...and that is all Evan Turner. I think that the trio of Jrue, ET and Iggy can form the nucleus of a team that go deep in the playoffs, and Turner has the potential to be THE most important thing you need to win in May and June - a flat-out superstar.

I recognize that Favors can be a truly dominant big - but as we have seen with Dwight Howard, it is really hard in today's NBA for your dominant scorer in the guts of a game to be a big man...defenses (particularly in May and June) are too good...they cut off entry passes...they rotate help quickly. Turner will negate that because he is a guy who is very comfortable with the ball in his hands and he is very effective initiating his offense from the perimeter.

I can't wait to hear Turner's name called on the 24th.

Brian, you had me sold on Favors. I started dreaming about scenarios where we could trade down and still land the NBA's next dominant big-man. I was drinking the kool-aid.

But something changed my mind. While pouring through YouTube watching highlights, I came across an interview with Favors from the combine. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXRzGRAEKyo) Take a look at that video. His answers are mostly just rephrasing the question, and he only finishes about half of his sentences. I know he's 18, and it's not like we're drafting him for his chess skills, but have you ever seen an interview with a great player that was that inarticulate?

Am I overreacting here? Before you answer, watch an interview with Evan Turner from the same session: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MySiHDuWx0

It's probably not directly relevant to this debate, but the idea that defenses stop a dominant big man is a sign that we've just forgotten what a dominant big man looks like on offense. Exhibit one would be Olajuwon in 1995.

Against David Robinson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

continued...

Against Shaq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWUIZqoNr4Q&feature=related


Olajuwon wasn't even particularly good on offense in college outside of dunks.

Good point. Olajuwon improved dramatically after working with Moses Malone before his rookie season. He studied the footwork and got it down.

Howard is a bad example. He doesn't have much of an offensive game. His footwork is poor and he doesn't seem to work on his shot. There are centers you can go to late - Yao for one. He's been somewhat forgotten because of his injuries, but he's not done. Gasol and Duncan too, even though they're only part-time centers, can score in the paint with their back to the basket.

I'm for Turner. You need a guy with fire & confidence who knows how to win, regardless of position. This guy is a high-level competitor with great instincts and leadership skills. I think he's a guy who can carry a team while making his teammates better. I'd love to see him in the red, white & blue. I hate to say this, because I'm always overly optimistic, but I can even see a dramatic turnaround like Boston in '80 after they got Bird. (Forget the '07-'08 turnaround - that'll never happen again.)

Haven't a clue. I just hope the sixers feel free to pick the guy they think will be better in the long run and don't feel obliged to take Turner simply because he'll create more buzz next year.

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smh1980 on Jun 17 at 1:14
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I'm still a Favors fan. I do have my doubts like I have doubts for Turner.

Favors is a better athlete and has more superstar big qualities then we have seen in a few years. He can play the PF and C position with his size. He doesn't show the confidence off the court that you would like. However, I can only imagine what a tandem of Holiday/Favors could be. If they both reached their potential then who could stop them? Can we get past Orlando in the playoffs without a dominant big to go up against Howard? Howard has another 10 years of stardom left so that is why I am hoping we draft Favors instead of Turner.

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Old School Sixer Fan on Jun 17 at 6:35
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There is no way any of us have enough information to make this choice. We are fans with opinions - some of you have great knowledge and access to some of the kinds of information the teams have - so we can't really be right or wrong here. I hope the team player evaluation people picks the best player for the long term for this team. And I hope he works out well for ten years. I just hope they don't trade the pick unless they get Dwight Howard or Kevin Durrant in return.

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Old School Sixer Fan on Jun 17 at 6:39
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Last night someone was talking about needing a number one scoring option and whether or not Turner of Favors might be that person. If Collins can get Speights to play acceptable defense, Speights could be a number one scoring option.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 17 at 7:42
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For the first time in a long time I will be happy with whatever decision they make because our new coach exudes confidence and knowledge and will be in the "war room" after seeing the 4 studs in the draft along with his roster of returnees right before draft night.

I was pro Favors to start but won over by the Turner crowd but when C.Riena, who I read alot, doesn!t see Turner as an allstar level player and tk tells me he may not reach Iggy!s level than maybe a wow me trade comes on draft night. If Johnson/Love or Cousins/Henry or Jason Thompson/Johnson become available via trade it could become very interesting.

yeah suede they have you convinced that a 6'7" guard that can play an guard 3 positions, averaged ridiculous all around numbers as his team's first and only option about as efficiently as you can, who possesses way more BB IQ than the rest, with a game that is predicated on deception and leverage enetring a league that calls the game like is done now, wont succeed?

The pick for me has to be Turner becuase while Favors might become great, there is a risk with taking him like there would be with any other young big man. This pick is too important for the Sixers to take that risk. They need this pick to turn into a productive and potentially great player for the next decade. I'm not saying Favors won't become those, in fact I think there is a decent chance he will, but with E.T. I have no doubts.

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet but there is a pretty good article on Evan Turner (the person not the basketball player) up on Philly.com.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20100617_Sixers__probable_draft_pick_Turner_has_overcome_adversity.html#axzz0r7182Mg8

Amazing story. I don't know whether to be encouraged by his resilience or terrified by his physical problems.

I'll go along with whatever decision is made; however, if they feel that Turner is only going to be a supplemental player on a good team, I'd like to make bigger move(s) to improve this team. The no. 2 pick is big. Teams want Turner. Maybe, that's an indication of his quality, maybe not. I have to trust Ed, Tony, Doug, etc. on this.................

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rchap13 on Jun 17 at 9:19
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I like this turner kid. This is the talented player that philly needs. He has a great work ethic and will further improve his outside range. Also this guy will become a fan favorite immediately. That will help sell tickets!!! The thing that I love about his game, is his intensity and will to win, not to mention his spectacular mid range game.

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Myleskong on Jun 17 at 9:36
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Turner because he'll make his teammates better. Point blank. Period.

I like Favors and I always like the bigs over the smalls, but you posted yourself, Brian, that this is a guard league these days. I think Jrue and Iggy could make it real easy for Favors. I think Jrue, Iggy and Turner will make it real easy for any capable big.

I think with the perimeter player we'll have next season we can add a big in the draft(late 1st rounder) and be able to get a lot out of him because of the perimeter players.

It's pretty clear from Doug Collins that he want Iggy focused on defense this coming season. So, who become our main offensive option.

Of course, if there's a chance to trade down a spot and add an asset, I think we should do it.

i'm not saying he is the next kobe or jordan or making ridiculous statements like that. but one quality he has like them, they me against the world i want to win and prove im better than you attitude. ive spoken to turner as well as some of his teamates. he can flat out be a dick. and not in a cousins way. he is a dick because he knows how good he can be and he wants to be better than that. turner has that quality that will put in extra hours in the gym, work on that jump shot, and just be better than you. that is a hard quality to find. he is a legit #1 scoring option not only because of his skills, but because he wants to be. he isnt some nice guy. he wants to win. he wants to be the best. and that is a guy i want leading my team. draft the villain.

I'm still for Turner. Favors makes me nervous because he's less of a sure thing. Also, watch game 7 tonight to see a very similar offensive game- Paul Pierce. In terms of creating his own shot, Pierce is very similar to what Turner can turn into. A great midrange game, the ability to get to the basket, draws fouls, and has the ability to hit open threes. A very smart player. However, Turner also has a lot to his game that Pierce doesn't- PG ability, maybe a bit more athletic, and probably will be a better shut down defender. Favors may have more upside, but given the number two pick I want to go with the sure thing.

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Marty reply to ryano on Jun 17 at 10:38
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Couldn't agree more with you ryano. I've been preaching that Turner, to me, is the 2-guard version of Paul Pierce. Deceptively quick, great body control, sick mid-range game. I posted this yesterday but not sure anyone saw it - my concern with Favors is that he may still not have scratched the surface of his potential by the time he's due for a contract extension. So what do you do then. Also something no one mentions - wasn't Doug Collins the coach when the Wizards drafted Kwame Brown? That didn't work out to well - I have my doubts DC would repeat the same mistake twice. Plus the Sixers have basically come out and said they are taking Turner, just watch the video on their website with Hip-Hop from yesterday and use your inference skills.

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sfw reply to Marty on Jun 17 at 12:20
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If Pierce had Turner's ball handling skills, we would have selected him above Larry Hughes. We were looking for a partner for AI in the backcourt and Pierce just didn't have the handle for that.

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johnrosz reply to sfw on Jun 17 at 15:16
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I've heard that DiLeo wanted Nowitzki or Pierce. It was LB that inexplicably fell in love with Hughes.

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 15:56
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The story goes (as i've heard it)

Brown wanted Hughes
King wanted ONLY ONE of Nowitzki/Pierce
DiLeo wanted the other :)

And brown got his way

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 16:02
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I'm guessing DiLeo was in favor of the international pick. Would've been nice to see AI play with an offensive player the caliber of either Pierce or Nowitzki.

Kwame Brown was a combination of Favors and Cousins negative sides.... There is almost nothing to suggest that Favors might drop that low. He is three times better right now than Kwame ever was.

Love the Turner - Pierce comparison though...

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Jason Mess on Jun 17 at 10:23
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Favors will only be a bust if we do not let him be his own player and think he has to be Howard, or Amare ect... As far as getting by Howard in the playoffs you do not need a dominant Big you need Bigs that can frustrate him along with the rest of the team playing the type of D that will max his weakest parts of his game. Now as far as saying big are to easy to shut down in the playoffs it all depends on what players are around him. I think Orlando has put together a team that allows other teams to take Howard out of the game. So it really comes down to what players you put around this pick (like adding a proven supperstar vis F/A in a couple of years).

I would be fine with either turner or Favors, but I lean more in favor of Favors. Here is my possibly faulty logic:

If we draft Turner, I fear that we'll get too good too fast. In other words, I'm scared that he'll make us good enough to be stuck in Draft/Playoff purgatory again. If Holiday, Turner, and Iguodala are good enough to get us into contention then I'll eat my words, but I just don't see it. I do think that Turner would make the Sixers more marketable and entertaining.

If we draft Favors, I belive that management is embracing a patient approach that could lead to titles in the future. With Favors needing time to develop the Sixers will have the opportunity to accumulate more talented peices through the draft, and once Derrick reaches his potential in 2-3 years then the rest of our players will be doing the same (See: OKC Thunder).

The assumption here is that Favors becomes the type of big that can carry a team deep into the playoffs. How many teams get deep into the playoffs without an All-Star level 'big' on their roster?

Also, during the Christmas season, the Sixers could market more than just Jrue. They could call their Christmas contributions to the community "Holiday Favors!"

I absolutely understand your logic about not wanting to end up in the basketball purgatory that we seem to be stuck in the past couple of years. However, I have more confidence in E.T. leading us into contention than Favors.

Turner is my guy. This league is a guard league and we are short 1 guard. Turner will bring a complete backcourt to the 76ers. The 2 teams in the finals both have above average guards and average centers. The superstar centers are at home.

Bigger chance of a bust if you go big then you go small. Turner is a more polished player. Turner has the tools now to be a great player. Favors still has to get better. Which means you don't know if he will.

Favors worries me as he wasn't that good his one year in college. He is very raw offensively so he'll have to work on getting his skill level up to be any use in the NBA.

I've heard some people compare him on this board to Hakeem or Dwight Howard. I really doubt (less than 1%) he'd develop into Hakeem and Dwight Howard seems like a stretch too. I'd say he'd most likely turn into an Antonio McDyess before his knee gave out on the upside if he pans out.

What I am worried about is he'll be another Stromile Swift or Tyrus Thomas and I figure there is a pretty good shot of that. Both are freak athletes (at least as good as Favors) and relied on their athleticism rather than skill.

So, I'd advocate Turner as even if he doesn't turn into an all-star I think he'd turn into a good pro but if we go for Favors I think there is at least a decent shot he turns into a huge bust.

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 11:27
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Just finished talking to Turner and Collins after today's workout. Turner said he'd be a little surprised if he's not the No. 2 pick,

Collins said Turner "shot the ball pretty well" from 3-point range. We only got to see a few shooting drills at the end.

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johnrosz reply to Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:59
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Hey Tom, can you give your impression of Turner after talking to him? Seems like a guy that already has a pretty good handle on the whole media thing

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 11:48
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Turner, when asked how much having Collins, a former high draft pick and ex-Sixer player, as coach would help him: "I think it helps a lot. He knows a lot about the city and he’s coached some of the greatest players in the game. He coached wings. I think I can really benefit from him. He’s got a real positive outlook. It’s going to be fun. Last night at dinner, he told me all about playing in Philadelphia and how passionate they were. It’s going to be super fun. I’m excited."

I want Turner.I can give you tons of reasons to draft him but just look at his nickname.I mean The Villain is the best nickname in the history of NBA.How can you NOT be a superstar with a nick like that ?

Draft the guy with best nickname ever.

Trade down, try to unload Brands contract and take Cousins!

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Tom Moore reply to CG on Jun 17 at 13:34
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Way too much risk in Cousins, given his work ethic and character questions.

Favors is a bit raw and too small to be paired with Brand. Johnson, who'll work out Saturday for the Sixers, might be a better 3-point shooter than Turner, but Turner is a better scorer and more ready to make an immediate difference.

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JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:03
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The sixers don't need Cousins, they have spencer hawes

http://twitter.com/chadfordinsider

Dalembert to Sacto for Hawes and Nocioni according to Ford

Sigh

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Rich reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:07
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Damn, Sammy's gone. I can't really believe it.

Don't know how this makes the Sixers any better. Does this mean Favors or Cousins will be the pick? Very weird timing for this trade.

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JohnEMagee reply to Chodeburger on Jun 17 at 14:10
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I don't think it makes the sixers better
but it does frack their salary even more, Nocioni is signed through 2012 with a team option for 2013.

I think this makes the sixers worse on the court and screws them salary wise off the court.

Excellent

Agreed this trade makes absolutely no sense to me. If we were going to get rid of Sammy and add salary I would hope we could do better than Nocioni (nice player but in reality just a guy off the bench) and Hawes (7-1 center who doesn't rebound and plays more like a SF). With this trade I would now be shocked if Turner was the pick.

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scott reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:09
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What's up with this trade?

Don't Hawes and Nocioni both suck? Anybody know what their contracts are?

I think it means a starting frontcourt of Brand/Iguodala/Young. In other words, small ball. I can't see a stiff like Hawes starting. He's not going to be in the league in 2 years.

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:10
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How did the great Sixerfan1976 miss this one???? (Is it because the guy is completely full of shit?)

Uncertainty about the future NBA performance of most all draft picks is a lot higher than people like to admit. In most cases, we can only guess about how the younger players match up against current NBA talent and how they might improve in the future. Historical correlations between draft order and NBA performance are quite poor.

IMO, both Turner and Favors have a chance to be quite good. Odds say that each of them are more likely to disappoint than to fully live up to expectations. I don't know what trade offers have actually been made available to the Sixers. If I could get an offer that included a current high quality NBA player with a good contract and another lottery pick, I would probably take that because the odds say it would be the rational choice, but perhaps other NBA teams also see that as an overpay.

Between Turner and Favors, I think it is likely that Favors would be selected over Turner by the time he was coming off his NCAA junior season, so if the Sixers were in a mood to be patient I would pick Favors. But the Sixers and the Philadelphia sports fans don't do patience very well, so Turner seems like the pick that better fits the situation.

OT - but I found the fan comments below this recent story about Von Hayes to be pretty Philly typical and funny: http://www.the700level.com/2010/06/von-hayes-gets-handsy-with-an-ump-in-camden-riversharks-game.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+The700levelcom-PhillySportsMinutiae+%28The700Level.com+-+Philly+Sports+and+Minutiae%29

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Ikeepnotmakinganaccount on Jun 17 at 14:09
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Sammy traded for Hawes and Nocioni

Yup, it's true. Dalembert for Hawes, Nocioni. I think this sucks personally. Way too early to take advantage of Dalembert's expiring.

Why did we do that Sammy trade?

Holy shit I hate this trade.

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JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:25
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Nocioni is signed long term
Nocioni is a SF
Nocioni may be seen by the sixers brass as a ‘starter’ who is more ‘complimentary’ to Evan Turner

So in the worst case scenario, this is the precursor to dumping #9

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 15:12
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That's a good point. I think this is completely possible if Iguodala nets them a chance at Cousins on draft night. Maybe in their minds a combo of Thad/Nocioni can adequately replace Iguodalas production at the 3.

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 15:17
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Then they're high or are too stupid to realize defense matters

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 15:39
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It seems like an Eddie Jordan fantasy trade to me.

With this trade and now assuming Favors will be the pick and the sixers don't add anyone else significant are the sixers still a playoff team with a good coach? I wasn't a big Sammy fan but we would be putting alot of faith in Brand and Favors to be productive in the frontcourt. Here's how I guess the starting lineup would look:

PG: Holiday
SG: Igoudala
SF: Young
PF: Brand
C: Hawes

Bench: Lou, Nocioni, Favors, and Speights.

Gotta figure Favors would eventually supplant Brand or Hawes.

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JohnEMagee reply to Chodeburger on Jun 17 at 14:28
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Why would anyone assume this makes favors the pick - i don't get it

Because right now they have zero rebounding or defense in the frontcourt. Where do you see it coming from with who they have now or in the offseason besides the draft?

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JohnEMagee reply to Chodeburger on Jun 17 at 14:44
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The point is sam only had one year left on his contract, and favors was going to need a year to prepare anyway, if they wanted favors, sam being on the roster for one more year (or half a year) should have been irrelevant to the point

I agree that regardless of who the pick was Sam should have stayed. But don't you think with Sam now gone there is nobody who can either play offense or defense down low effectively? For all of Sam's shortcomings and there were many, he at least played defense. Now with Sam gone we don't have a single low post player who plays defense or rebounds. Favors would at least fix that to some degree.

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JohnEMagee reply to Chodeburger on Jun 17 at 15:53
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I don't know that hawes can't play downlow offensively effectively - i'm told he can

PS Speights can play down low effectively on offenss

Sam sucked offensively - it's his defense that matters

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Ikeepnotmakinganaccount on Jun 17 at 14:27
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Hmm... an expiring contract and our only inside defensive presence for an overpaid SF and a C that doesnt play defense or rebound...

yup, seems like a Stefanski move

Awful. I thought Collins was going to emphasize defense. With Hawes as your center? I hate Nocioni's game. He's a hack who thinks he's Elgin Baylor.

I can't believe this trade! I feel like its a cruel joke! Today stinks! I found out I have Shingles and now this??? We couldve done so much better! All I can think of is Geiger and Kucoc when I think of these two. Somebody please tell me this is a joke!

This doesn't necessarily mean we won't draft Turner. It could mean, we will be trading Thad for a another pick in the late first round. I hope!

I can't wait to hear Ed spin this one. Maybe Collins didn't like Sammy's attitude. Who knows!

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bebopdeluxe on Jun 17 at 14:30
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This trade suggests to me that they already have 1 or 2 landing spots for Thad in place, and it will simply be a function of who is available at what point in the draft.

I really like Nocioni...he's a tough player with skills. Don't know Hawes, but my guess is they hope that between Hawes and whichever big they get with the pick for Thad, they come up with our center of the future.

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JohnEMagee reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 17 at 14:38
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Hawes is soft defensively and so is Nocioni - they'll fit ont he bench perfectly.

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Tom Moore reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:50
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Nocioni has some toughness and versatility. Hawes was benched off and on last year for his lack of aggression.

Nocioni is nice player that can bring toughness , defense and three point shooting. Hawes, well, hopefully he's not Jason Smith 2.0.

The trade is terrible though i cannot believe we couldn't get more for Sammy...

There has to be another trade though. This makes zero sense as it is...

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johnrosz reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 17 at 14:44
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I think they see Hawes as their "center of the future" I'm sure Collins had some say in this, which gives me at least a little bit of relief. Definitely a questionable move, maybe they see Nocioni as their new outside shooter? Maybe Kapono is the guy that gets moved now.

Hawes is a center who plays like a small forward. He is the definition of soft.

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 14:45
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If collins sees hawes as a defensive presence that you need from a center, he should be fired immediately.

Whether or not he had say doesn't matter if it's a dumb ass trade

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 14:58
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He's still young. I'd be shocked if any of us have seen enough of Hawes to make any real assessment of his bball IQ. With a strong fundamental coach, maybe he can grow into a Brad Miller type? Personally, I don't see it. I don't like the trade either, but obviously they see something in Hawes that we aren't seeing...

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 15:06
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Brad Miller is a strong defensive presence in your mind?

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 15:22
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Where did I say anything about Hawes being a defensive presence? He was a productive starting center for years with a similar skill set to Hawes.

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 15:26
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The point that I made was that the sixers now have no strong defensive presence and your response was that he could turn into brad miller - i just wanted to make sure you didn't feel brad miller was a strong defensive presnce

Cause the sixers have no big men who can defend very well

This is a catastrophe.

Hawes and Nocioni are terrible.

Did the Sixers get a future 1st rounder or something like that at least?

Sac has the 3rd pick in the 2nd round. Maybe, we also got that.

Is Speights now our premier rebounding big?

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 14:59
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It's happening, once details are finalized.

Gives the Sixers are a lot of 3s ...

Is there anything else being thrown in like a future first or a second round pick?

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:14
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Not that I know of. I can ask.

Am told the Sixers aren't now leaning toward Favors.

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JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:18
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No one believes the sixers are now leaning towards derek favors, except for chad ford who gives everyone who calls them selves a journalist more shame than peter vescey

Those conversations you reported above pretty much convince me that Turner is the guy. ("It's going to be super fun. I'm excited.")

I don't like this Sammy trade at all.

For all his offensive shortcomings, Sam was an excellent rebounder, could shut down most any center and had great athleticism for his position. He fit in very well when the Sixers were running and defending in the Cheeks / DiLeo years.

Hawes is sort of a Montross type with a better low post game. Nocini (sp?) is a tough player with some skill but is really better suited to coming off the bench.

I think Ed S. needs to go before he screws up anything else.

Niocini's contract doesn't expire till 2012. What the fuck? I hate this trade. What was the point of this trade? Spencer Hawes sucks and Niocini is overpaid. I would have rather let Dalembert's contract expire.

There's a team option on Nocioni, but he screws up whatever cap space the team would've had next summer, definitely.

Hawes is basically an expiring contract unless something miraculous happens.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Jun 17 at 15:33
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The team option is for the 12/13 year - he expires in 2012 if they don't pick up the option

Rumor is the sixers are now under the 'luxury' tax level - true? Couldn't they just have given willie to someone?

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:29
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No pick involved in the deal.

Getting rid of Dalembert and having the Kings pay his trade kicker could be perceived as addition by subtraction.

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JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:32
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And adding nocioni could be perceived as subtraction by addition.

Calling it addition by subtraction is just another way of saying - yes we made a stupid move but hear us out

I have a feeling that this trade could be a precursor to another trade possibly on draft day. I think either Thad or Lou are the most likely with Igoudala being much less likely.

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:36
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Kings had to pay Dalembert's trade kicker.

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JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 15:40
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Because 1.8 million dollars really is something that COmcast can't bear.

This is a pure salary dump - saving the 3 mil for next season - all that bull about the luxury tax not being an issue is just that - bull and spin from stefanski (and I'm not surprised nor did i ever believe the bull he was slinging fed to us).

And next off seasons they'll make an equally stupid move to get under the luxury tax for one more season.

I think calling it a salary dump is a bit shortsighted. They like Hawes, don't feel Dalembert was in their long term plans, and have nobody behind him.

and did you really expect the team to pay the luxury tax for 42-45 wins? If this is our biggest cap catastrophe (losing 1 year of Dalembert), I'll call it a win.

Hawes is a restricted free agent, do you really think they're going to re-sign him? There were better ways to get under the luxury tax, much better ways. This is a bad, bad move, and unless they make more moves to improve the team, we aren't talking about 42-45 wins, we're talking lottery, again.

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JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 17 at 15:48
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and did you really expect the team to pay the luxury tax for 42-45 wins? If this is our biggest cap catastrophe (losing 1 year of Dalembert), I'll call it a win.

And taking on an extra year of a 7 million dollar player who serves no purpose on the team

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JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 15:38
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The sixers save slightly more than 3 million dollars in 2010/11 salary (plus rumor is kings are paying samess kicker which is about 1.8 million right now)

This was a one year salary purge pure and simple, getting closer (or completely) under the tax for the 2010/11 season

All you folks who though the sixers were going to be willing to go over the tax to be better...the sixers just got worse, but they saved 3 million dollars

I'm not sure of the exact math, but this is the most sense I can make out of it right now.

Unless Collins said get rid of Dalembert, he's on a fool's errand to get this team to the playoffs this season right now unless some serious moves are made elsewhere.

This trade has been in the works long before Collins was hired. Dalembert not wanting to be here + Sixers like Hawes.

I can't wait to hear Stefanski try to defend Hawes and what they feel he can bring to the team. Hawes was the Bargnani of the Western Conference.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Jun 17 at 15:47
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I ran the math using storytellers contracts - it's 3.08 million (approximately) less for 2010/11

As for dereks comments - if the sixers have been hot on hawes for a while (because Jason Smith is so good right?) then that's actually more concerning than just a salary dump.

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 15:58
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I'm a little more upset about the Nocioni acquisition. I kind of just look at it as a one year tryout for Hawes. He has all the tools to be a good player, lets see what he can contribute before writing off a 22 year old that was a top 10 pick. I really don't like Nocioni though, I am pretty sure hes statistically one of the worst defenders in the league. So I don't really give a shit if he adds "toughness" while he's getting lit up by opposing 3's.

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 15:59
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Had to take SOMEONE to make the salaries work and i guess kenny thomas expiring contract wasn't available...

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johnrosz reply to JohnEMagee on Jun 17 at 16:04
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I have a feeling that hearing about Nocioni's "toughness" is going to drive me up a wall the same way David Eckstien's "grittiness" does

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Jun 17 at 16:07
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Well - David Eckstein has grit - i just dont' believe grit freaking matters

Nociioni doesn't even have toughness :)

I believe in grit and toughness.

I don't believe we accurately measure grit and toughness.

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JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Jun 17 at 16:14
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Didn't say I didn't believe in toughness

Just said I didn't believe that Nocioni has any

You can count on that. People call him "tough" because he crashes into people on his way to the rim then forces up a shot and complains that he didn't get the call when it bounces off the backboard. I guess it's the scowl that fools people.

He's been making noise lately about going to Europe to play, and that it's no big deal to him to be in the NBA. We can hope.

I really don't like Nocioni though, I am pretty sure he's statistically one of the worst defenders in the league.

You're right, I just looked it up: his opponent PER as listed by 82games.com was 19.3 this past year, even worse than the 18.8 put up by Kapono! Putting up a 19.3 opponent PER while guarding opposing bench SFs is hard to do (by comparison, Carney -- who is almost surely gone now -- put up a 14.2).


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johnrosz reply to Statman on Jun 17 at 16:11
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So that makes me wonder, what exactly does he do to exhibit toughness? How does one earn that label if they are getting torched?

It's the scowl.

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Jason Mess reply to Statman on Jun 17 at 18:33
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But Drue was over 19.0 too and did not someone point out even though Lou had a lower number that Drue was a much better defender. So unless it is coming from watching a lot of game tape I am going to wait to say he does not play defense.

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JohnEMagee reply to Jason Mess on Jun 17 at 18:36
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I don't know who Drue is - but using the defensive numbers of a 19 year old rookie to say 'maybe nocioni doesn't suck' is an interesting method

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Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 16:36
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Collins on Wednesday's dinner with Turner: "They had people coming over to the restaurant with gear for him to sign at the restaurant. I think that sort of blew him away. I said, ‘That’s what this city is all about.’ They’re so hungry to have a winning team again. I think that’s very exciting for him."

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JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Jun 17 at 17:25
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Oh good lord - it's freaking thome all over the place

It sounds like Favors and Cousins have more in common then we thought:

http://1500espn.com/sportswire/Derrick_Favors_shows_raw_ability_poor_conditioning_in_Wolves_workout


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